That season is easily the worst Everton season I have the dis-pleasure of watching.
We were woeful - heavy home defeats to Sheff Wed (3-1) Villa (4-1) and a then bottom-of-the-table Spurs (2-0) were particular lowlights, as well as being hammered 4-1 by Cov in the league cup and 4-0 by a title winning Arsenal side (the sight of Tony Adams marching through the centre of our defence to score the 4th still makes me cringe).
We were very,very lucky top stay up that year and if I'm honest we probably deserved to go down instead of a Bolton side who had put up a decent fight of things towards the end of the season.
The fact we are in a similar positon now realy puts this season into grim perspective

What are you on about, don't you read the match reports in the rags, allegedly we should count ourselves lucky we have Moyes, people who don't pay their hard earned money to watch dour negative shite every Saturday,people who don't see us each and every week telling us who do, to keep our traps shut or we could end up in a piss poor state.
The last time I looked at the league table our best squad ever seems to be in nothing but that.

Paul (2) Are you referring to that idiot who writes for the News of the World. I picked it up yesterday, read the section on Everton and well wasn't impressed with what he had written.

I remember that Arsenal match when we had Bilic playing in center mid. A defender playing in center mid, ring any bells?

David Moyes wants to win silverware asap. He doesn`t care if it`s the Championship title next year...

Saw that 'report' as well.

The Jist was..

"Everton supporters - you know fuck all, shut the fuck up, Moyes is great..er even though Everton can't score, but..um..they COULD score soon. Not only that, they COULD have been top of the League if they'd won loads of games and if they WERE top...well um..THEN you'd feel daft complaining, so keep it shut ingrates".

Uninformed and total gibberish but the NOTW is not really known for it's insight.

Just checked Soccerbase and from what I see we had 14 points from 18 games played then whereas we have 18 points from 17 games played now... so we are not as bad as we were then. And so, other than another thread in which everyone gets another excuse to say, "Yeah we're shit... yeah Moyes is dull/boring/negative" ? your point is?

The difference is that the team from 97-98 didn't look like winning many games whereas now we do. If only we could finish. Back then I had no hope we could go on a 2nd half of the season run that would carry us way up the table.

I do now........just. Keep the faith lads, either Moyes will change SOMETHING or we might start to get that mythical "rub of the green"! Come on Blues!!

"Same date" in 1997 is a bit deceptive; 18 games played... whereas only 17 so far this season. Also, lots more draws this season, giving us more points.

Here is the table after 17 games back then:

Club                          P    W    D    L   GF   GA   GD   Pts
Manchester United            17   11    4    2   43   13   30   37
Chelsea                      17   11    1    5   41   18   23   34
Blackburn Rovers             17    9    6    2   30   18   12   33
Arsenal                      17    8    6    3   31   18   13   30
Leeds United                 17    9    3    5   26   19    7   30
Leicester City               17    7    6    4   22   15    7   27
Derby County                 16    8    2    6   30   24    6   26
Liverpool                    16    7    4    5   27   17   10   25
Newcastle United             15    7    3    5   18   19   -1   24
Wimbledon                    17    6    4    7   19   21   -2   22
West Ham United              17    7    1    9   24   28   -4   22
Aston Villa                  17    6    3    8   19   23   -4   21
Sheffield Wednesday          17    6    3    8   30   38   -8   21
Crystal Palace               17    5    5    7   17   22   -5   20
Bolton Wanderers             17    4    7    6   13   24  -11   19
Coventry City                17    3    8    6   13   24  -11   17
Southampton                  17    5    1   11   20   27   -7   16
Tottenham Hotspur            17    4    4    9   14   28  -14   16
Everton                      17    3    4   10   16   27  -11   13
Barnsley                     17    4    1   12   15   45  -30   13

The funny thing is (well it's not funny is it) that Moyes has turned the whole circle (with never winning anything) and we are back to where we were, still in Goodison too.

Boltons' league position then looks worryingly like ours now, but we at least look like winning games this time round as was stated above. Didn't Lescott get into double figures for us a couple of seasons ago? ;-))

Vialli was our saviour that day. Chelsea had nothing to play for that day and won. Perhpas they'll do the same to us on the last day of this season.

For comparisons sake, here is our points tally at the same stage for the last 8 seasons under Moyes' charge
10/11 Pld 17 - Pos. 15 - Pts 18 (GD -2) - ?
09/10 Pld 17 - Pos. 15 - Pts 18 (GD -8) - Finished 8th.
08/09 Pld 17 - Pos. 7 - Pts 25 - Finished 5th.
07/08 Pld 17 - Pos. 6 - Pts 30 - Finished 5th.
06/07 Pld 17 - Pos. 10 - Pts 24 - Finished 6th.
05/06 Pld 17 - Pos. 16 - Pts 17 - Finished 11th.
04/05 Pld 17 - Pos. 2 - Pts 36 - Finished 4th.
03/04 Pld 17 - Pos. 11 - Pts 20 - Finished 17th.
02/03 Pld 17 - Pos. 5 - Pts 29 - Finished 7th.

Interesting to note that we are in the exact same position and have the exact same points tally as we had at the same time last season, albeit with a '6' better goal difference.

On the negative side of things, this time last season, we were 'FOR 35, AGAINST 46', whereas this season at this stage we are 'FOR 18, AGAINST 20'.

So our defence is much better, but we've only scored half as many goals.

Also, during the season 2005/2006, acknowledged by many as probably the worst start to a season during Moyes' near 9 years in charge, we had less points after 17 games than we have now, and went on to finish 11th. Two seasons before that, we had 3 more points at that same stage, but went on to finish 17th.

Clearly, we all know we have been here before, and to panic too much at this stage is folly. Yes, things aren't great, and yes, things need to change, but that's what the January transfer window is there for.

Looking at the table provided by Michael, Liverpool were also struggling in the 97-98 season. The 2-0 win this season was sweet, however it was against probably the worst Liverpool team that I have seen in 35 years.

This season Liverpool have been shite... the bitter irony ? we have to be worse. Kenwright must be sitting their thinking 'oh well, at least the Shite are awful too, that will keep the natives at Everton a little less angry'.

This season has been the straw that broke the camel's back, fans are turning away in droves and the atmosphere at GP is as bad as the final days of the Smith tenure. We are seriously listing and, with no money available, it looks highly likely that our fortunes are unlikely to improve.

I was 'fortunate' not to miss a game in the 97-98, and although it's hard to make a case that this team is better, take it from me it is. The 97-98 had relegation written all over it with probably the worst Everton midfield I've ever seen-now that's saying something.

The lowlight for me was around this time of year vs a not very good Wimbledon that ended 0-0, but was light years away from the 0-0 we witnessed on Saturday (and I'll get it in before someone else, you still get only get a point), a freezing day and one of the worst matches I've ever seen; think Sunday league with a gang of lads straight from a piss up and even that wouldn't do justice to it.

That year we were regularly out fought out thought and out played, however apart from the Newcastle game I haven't seen that this season, just chance after chance going begging. The problem is glaringly obvious, but have we got the money to buy ourway back to winning ways? not looking good

Half the teams in Michael's table are no longer in the Premier League. Of the other eight W.Ham are definite relegation candidates while Blackburn, Newcastle and the RS on and off the field have problems.

David #15, West Brom played us off the park just a few weeks ago or did you sleep through that one?

Gavin no I didn't sleep through that one and I must admit that I didn't go to the game, however according to BBC stats West Brom had 3 shots on target! obviously they thought that the Distin og was off target until he got a touch on it.

So that doesn't sound like we got battered, in fact watching the extended highlights, there first attack resulted in a corner which they scored from, then they scored a peach of a free kick. I had Sky sports news on and at 2-1 they kept saying it was all Everton.

So Gavin my point is that I've seen Everton teams that have been hammered, to the point that if it was a boxing match the ref would stop the contest, and the 97-98 was on the end of quite a few hidings, and I haven't seen that this season, maybe Monday will be different.

Finally don't let scorelines fool you, I've seen us draw or be beaten 1-0 and we've been thrashed out of sight and vice versa, it is a hard time to be an Evertonian and sometimes you get get over pessimistic, but then again there's a lot to be pessimistic about.

If Kendall could have swapped his '97/'98 squad for the current one, I wonder how he'd have them playing & what he would do with Cahill.

By the way, David, I did have the misfortune to attend the WBA match & overall we were quite woeful. Admittedly, we seemed fairly bright initially, but not much came of it (quelle surprise!). That corner you mention came from our throw-in deep in their half & the free-kick was needlessly given away in a dangerous position (Cahill, I think). Thereafter, I thought we never really looked like getting back into the game. We got no less than we deserved on the day - bugger all.

"If Kendall could have swapped his 97-98 squad for the current one, I wonder how he'd have them playing & what he would do with Cahill."

Take him for a piss up?

I figured that was a given, John.

That 97-98 side of Kendall's duffers was easily the worst I've seen at Goodison. Kendall brought in loads of unsuitable players and for various reasons got rid of quality players like Hinchcliffe, Speed and Stuart.

How that side didn't go down I don't know. We were shocking.

David, I was at the West Brom game and as a season ticket holder in the Park End, I can't say I've seen much at home to get excited about all season. West Brom passed the ball about but importantly forward and the score line didn't flatter them. Possession means fuck all if you don't convert your chances, look at the stats for that game, the killer is shots on goals, shots on target and the deadly one West Brom 4 Everton 1

Shaun, I was referring to that article, we have to endure this every other week in the local press too and Moyes reads this and I believe this helps him believe his own hype. Make no bones about it he has done a very good job for the club but nothing special.

What is really cracking me up is his treatment of certain players, yet again he had a dig at Beckford last week despite grabbing the equaliser he should have won the game by not passing to Rodwell and it`s similar with his sly digs he has at Coleman, he was not too complimentary that he won our player of the month award and yet last night again he is full of backing for Saha because he is working hard in training, so fucking what Davey, he certainly is not come match day.

The man is a stubborn fool and It appears he cannot take criticism because the national press tell him he is better than what most match going blues think he is.

Lee Courtliff - errm are you for real? Every time I go the match, I know what the outcome is going to be...yet another pointless stupid draw or a hammering.

Look like winning? We might if we could get one of those lazy ingrate strikers to score week in out..right now I think we're going to be lucky to stay up the way things are going.

Simple truth..don't score enough goals - down you go end of

Jeff Magee - do you really need him to spell it out for you??...I mean really.

David Hallwood ? the BBC site has West Brom having 3 shots on target when it ended 4-1? the BBC are utter bollocks anyway.

Simon Jenkins - We should be panicking...we haven't got a striker who could hit a barn door 1 yard away...and the rest of the midfield are just as bad.

We now play with the ball far too much instead of getting it forward every opportunity.

This season is a disgrace, and regardless what the stats say..quite irrelevant at the end of the day.. If you don't score enough goals your going down..christ half the time we can barely manage a draw

And to make matters worse, all it takes is for the bottom 3 to win and we loose on Monday... we'll be firmly stuck to the foot of the table...

Yes, we should be panicking.

Was that not the season we drew 0-0 at Bolton and they had a goal disallowed that was about 3 feet over the line before Southall pushed it out?

I think we used all our luck up for the next 20 years in that game.

Ernie McAllister - yes he really does have to spell out what he is trying to get at ? maybe it?s the tabloid headline but I am sick of reading utter bollocks on TW about how poor we are, this bollocks gets even worse when people make up stats to suit their argument - as MK shows with the table from 1997 we were second bottom with 13 points and 12 points off 8th - this year we are 6 places off bottom and 4 points off 8th ? how can we possibly be as bad now as we were in 97?

As Simon Jenkins points out we are in exactly the same position as we were this time last year and ended up 8th ? ?Whoopy fucking do? I can already hear you screaming and, no I am not ecstatic about our position and having endured the Wolves, Newcastle and the Wigan games this season at Goodison, the last one a twenty four hour round trip including two four hour boat trips (I take my hat off to other Manx blues who travel far more often than I do) I am as depressed as the next blue but the knee jerk reaction (or even long term campaign) to poor results (not necessarily poor performances ? there is a difference) of ?Moysey out?? ?sell all our players? ? ?get someone (who exactly?) in? ? etc etc just makes me even more depressed.

I am a Moyes supporter ? he sometimes confuses me with his decisions ? eg why keep on playing Saha, but he has explained this and whilst I would not have done so I respect his decision ? we don?t know what happens in training and so whilst all the anti-Moyes laugh at his justification it maybe that Beckford can?t hit a barn door (he has history) or never gets on side (he has history) whilst Louie is banging them in left right and centre - who would you then go for? ? I like Beckford and the Yak but am willing to let Moyes be the judge because as he has explained he sees them every day.

I get confused with the all the negativity that I keep reading on TW about how bad we are and whose fault it is and whilst I am not against constructive criticism or reasoned arguments the vast majority of contributors go out of their way to justify that we are shit and give no allowance for luck, rub of the green or whatever you want to call it nor give any credit for past deeds and set off on grand generalisations such as Moyes is dull negative etc we play negative football etc ? whilst the evidence in the form of proper stats just does not back this up. Most of what I read on TW is the sort of shit that I would write about the Redshite if I ever bothered to read and write into their equivalent of TW ? why do we do it to ourselves?

Jeff, you say you're confused but the picture being painted is only too clear to those fans who don't share your blind trust in Moyes and all he does. You respect his decisions.... that's a laugh.

Why don't you read the thread again as you seem to have strayed somewhat from the point: " the last time we had won so few games by this point of the season". That's 3 games won. And your still just confused occasionally by the manager???

I'd respond to this 'negativity on TW' shite you are spouting but I lost any respect for your contribution when I got to the end and read such a twatish line about redshites. That tells me all I need to know about you.

Ernie (#28) ? I don't put great store in the match stats to be honest... but in the West Brom case, the fourth goal was down as an og... Does that not mean the initial shot by the West Brom player was going off-target? So I think they could be right with their count of 3 shots on target.

Michael, I realise that this thread is probably dead now but wanted to respond to your comments.

If the thread was all about the last time we had only won three games by this point of the season, then why not title it along those lines ? as you and I have both proved overall we are not as bad this season as we were in ?97.

With regard to my confusion as to the negativity on this site, my point is that I do not understand why there is no leeway given to Moyes or Kenwright or most of the players. When you love someone or something you normally afford them much more leeway than someone or something you are not so keen on ? you make excuses for their shortcomings or faults the same short comings or faults that you rip the back out of the opposition for ? for example the redshite.

Take the Wigan game for example and substitute us with the redshite ? my Dad and quite a few of my mates are redshite fans so our post match ?friendly banter? would be along lines of:

Me: ?You were shite as usual on Saturday I see? can?t even beat the Pie-eaters.. not surprised with that useless twat up front and Mr ?shit brained negativity? as a manager who doesn?t understand that one up front went out with the ark... blah blah?.

RedShiteMate: ?Hold on mate we had a perfectly good goal disallowed for offside?.?

Me: ?Don?t give me that shite ? always moaning about bad luck ? it?s all down to Mr shit-brained negativity ? you should get rid of him mate he?s done nothing for you only taking you down ? you should try to get Martinez ? up and coming manager forward thinking blah blah blah?

RSM: ?Yeah that Martinez bloke fucking brilliant ? progressive manager - that would be the same one who instructed his goal keeper to start the time wasting on goal kicks from the start of the game not the last 10 mins as is the norm for teams such as Wigan, Wolves etc hanging on for draw? the same forward thinking manager who told them not to engage in anything that might remotely resemble a free flowing game of football but to have as many people behind ball as poss ? yeah what a joy to watch .. they should have had points deducted for their unwillingness to engage in a game of football?

Me: ?Come on - this is your year ? best squad ever - you are going to be a top 4 team aren?t you? ? you lot should be able break down a bunch of cloggers like Wigan ? Martinez reckons they finished the game stronger than you and he is disappointed that they did not win it in the end ? but for a super save from your clown keeper ??

RSM: ?As I said class bloke Martinez full of sound logic ? our keeper has fuck all to do all day but still manages to pull off great save ? a save he should not have had to make as one of our midfielders had been fouled in the build up right in front of ref ? and anyway if we follow Martinez? logic we would have won 6-2 because from my reckoning they had two chances we had six so if all chances had gone in etc etc ??

Me: ?Whatever? you?re not going win fuck all with Mr shit brained negativity in charge he always sets you up not to lose ? look at last weeks game at Chelsea ? first half shite beacuse of the way he sets them up to defend your precious point ??

RSM: ?Yeah that will be the same negative set up that produces a good shot on target within the first 30 secs from the useless twat up front?.?

Michael I don?t doubt your, or any of the other contributors to TW, love for Everton but you must see, that from my point of view, I feel like I don?t need to find a red shite mate to have my post match ?friendly banter? with I just need to come on to TW and all the things I would expect them to say are already posted the thing is though they are posted by fellow blues. There are always two sides to any discussion and whilst you obviously feel I am deluded in my blind faith in Moyes I am trying to balance out the discussion or do you not want anything other than blind faith in your own view?

Jeff,

I think it was Jonathan's title, not mine. Accurate if "this bad" is defined as number of wins by this stage of the season... which is what he said. So no reason for me to change the title.

"Leeway"...? Lost me there... either we describe what we see... or what? It's not a question of leeway. If you disagree with someone's analysis, fine, go right ahead. But for you to expect them to disagree with themselves to provide the "leeway" you want to see... No. Just respect the fact that that is their analysis based on their assessment of what they have seen. That's what we are about here: Evertonians providing their analysis for other Evertonians to consider.

Which brings me to all this redshite crap... There aren't many things I hate in the world... but kopite twats are a big chunk of the list. I have absolutely no time for them and would not even engage them... "Banter" ? not interested in the slightest. Sorry.

This website is for Evertonians discussing Everton. Any other fans appear and they get blocked... especially redshite twats... and we've had a few. They are simply worthless in my book. The last thing I would want to do is set up this website to cater for discussing Everton issues with redshites... yet that seems to be where you're coming from on this issue of "negativity".

To suggest that the critical analysis provided here by fellow Evertonians is even remotely comparable with the incessant garbage spouted by your redshite chums is simply unconscionable, and demonstrates a serious misunderstanding on your part in terms of what you are reading.

Perhaps you're looking for us to provide a rallying point for you to fuel up on your defence of all things Everton against allcomers from the dark side... well, I can see little if anything we post or discuss is going to help you there. You're on your own with your loveable redshite chums.

If you want me to somehow change the website to cater more for your needs in such an endless and ultimately futile exchange with your redshite pals... well, I hope you can see that ain't gonna happen.

As the words of the song go: "We don't care what the redshite say, what the hell do we care?" ? I think you need to take that to heart, Jeff. We're concerned about Everton; we don't care what any redshites would say.