It is of course everyone's entitlement to voice an opinion, but it should be their opinion and not claiming massive support from people you don't know and never asked.

Only idiots say Moyes should go because they never say what happens after that. Some opinionators say drop our best players Pienaar and Cahill. What clueless twerps are they to suggest that?

We are a mediocre club with mediocre resources. Get used to it and stop comparing us with clubs with massive financial clout. We probably will not get bought by a billionaire or taken over by a rich gang like those who run Spurs. Too bad, just live with it. Don't blame Kenwright for being relatively poor.

Why would you support Moyes?

1, Blind loyalty (he's our manager.... end of.)
2, Happy (stability, Prem status is enough)
3, Belief (he'll turn things around)
4, Fear (Allardyce arrives)

ToffeeWeb is swamped with Moyes Out (including me) and I think he's taking us down. I don't agree with any of the points above but do you? And why? If there's 2 sides to every story, what's the pro-Moyes side?

What would we gain from sacking Moyes? do you really believe we could attract a better manager,will cash suddenly become available to make the sort of signings we need appear,simple answer is NO by the way I am not a Moyes fan

Roy,
If the squad is as good as Moyes tells us it is then a new manager might just get results from it, so the cash issue doesnt come into that. It does for replacing ageing players, or players who want away etc

For the first time in my life I can actually say that I do not enjoy supporting Everton.

My club used to be a source of optimism for me, even when we were fighting relegation year in year out. At least then we did fight, now it seems that the club as a whole don't care. Well if they dont why should I?

My problem is that I cant not care. I love EFC and always will. But right now I can't even be bothered to get up in the middle of the night to watch my club play. I record and watch the game in fast forward (try it sometime even Arteta looks quick!). Sitting here over the last few months reading what fellow supporters of Everton, people who love the club as much as I do have their say has been hard. There is no hiding it, we are in a crisis. We are in free fall. Who is to blame? Moyes, the players, Kenwright?

They all are and that is what has made it hard to pin down what is the correct way to solve the problem.

Kenwright doesnt have the money to pour into the club and by all accounts is royally full of shit.
Moyes has got the best out of his players for the last few years and has purchased some good young players. But he has also bought some duds. He is in charge of picking the team and the tactics they play with. This year has some of the players he has picked not being up to it but he seems unaware of this or unable to think of a better way to play.

The players seem to want to play a certain form of football and are good at it to a certain level but cant take it any further. We play sideways and around the box but dont penetrate.

The players we have are never going to be good enough as a group to win anything meaningful. We know that they do try their best for us but very few will be or have been true stars of their position. We do have bright lights like Baines Pienaar Rodwell with Fellani Cahill & Arteta also up there but there is a sharp drop after that.

In the end I believe that Moyes has taken us as far as he can with the resources at his disposal, I also believe that he is not a good enough manager to to take us much further even if the money was available to him. Under Moyes we will never win anything meaningful. He is to dour and negative to compete at the top level.

I hate to say it and it does sadden me but in the end I believe that David Moyes is the one that has to go. He has done a great job in stabilising the club to the point where we were for a few seasons top 5. But he is not willing to change his playing style to reinvigorate the team. I do believe that with small resources that is the only way to keep players motivated. I dont know who else could take over, I am sure that there would be a host of managers willing to have a crack at brightening up how we play.

All I want is to enjoy supporting my club again.

John I get pissed with Moyes most weeks.But if you were a manager with ambitions would you come to us,

Roy, I believe I can answer for John:

With the money Moyes is on? Yes, I would.

And I might even start players in their proper positions, drop ineffectual ones, and shake up the formation when I've hit a rut. Hell, I'd even form a culture within the Club that thinks we'd rather lose 3-4 playing wide open, than draw 0-0 playing ultra cautious. Finally, I'd leave one man up top when defending corners, just for shits and giggles.

Want to hire me?

# Yes i believe we can attract a better manager, there are plenty around. Most of them probably relative unknowns just like Moyes was when he took over here.

I don't know why people keep repeating the same old mantra "Who can we attract that are better?"
There will be plenty of opportunities for a club that has regularly been in the Eurocup contention. My only fear is that Kenwright will be the man searching 24/7 for this man.

Actually Roy, I would. And not only for his salary. Again, looking at the squad's perceived 'quality' and widely held opinion that Everton should have been looking to break into the top 4 this year why would that not appeal to an ambitious manager, young , or old? Success in that quest generates the income which would help build the club. I thought at the time that we, ( including Moyes) missed a trick in 2005 by not going for better players to try ensure qualifying into the CL group stage. Should Moyes have gone then citing a lack of ambition by the club?Looking back it was just a foretaste of the caution and acceptance of mediocrity that has become our hallmark. And through it all Moyes plays the 'victim' so well that the media and a lot of Evertonians buy it.

Paul, what it says is that Everton cannot afford to sack Moyes. All those people hoping to sell Vic, Piennaar and Yak in January in order to buy a new striker, maybe should be looking to use that money to pay off DM, because it will take millions.

As for replacements I get so fed up of people saying that he should go and that there are replacements out there, but they never offer sensible options.

Put your money where your mouth is and tell us who is a viable alternative to Moyes. Here's 2 to get you started Chris Hughton, did a great job with the barcodes, and my personal favourite, Paul Lambert. Turned Norwich from an atrocity into a team capable of getting back into the Prem.

Brian (1), it's easy to sit there watching final score every Saturday from your warm living room saying Moyes should be given more time. Maybe if you have to travel and spend your money going to a game and sit through that shite in the freezing cold every week you'd have more perspective than to brandish your fellow Evertonians who do make the effort as "idiots".

I sit in disbelief that people still support Moyes but I don't think their idiots, they're Evertonians after all.

As for replacements think abvout what qualified Moyes for the job? He'd taken an unfashionable club from the depths of the 3rd tier to the play-offs for the premier league. He failed to actually get them through the play-offs. He was a young manager who seemed to have the right philosophy about the game. It now shows he was all talk and his actual philosophy of how the game should be played is not in fitting with the rest of us. Why shouldn't we employ the next manager according to the same criteria that Moyes was appointed on? Why shouldn't we be looking at the next young manager with the right philosophy that matches ours? There are young managers like Hughton, Holloway, Di Matteo and Coyle who have all done what Moyes couldn't do and have taken unfashionable clubs with no money into the Premier League. I think that already makes them more qualified than Moyes.

I've made the point before that we've never appointed a 'big name' manager so why do some of you think now that because we can't appoint someone like Mourinho we should just stick with Moyes? Some of the fear that inhabits sections of our support is holding us back. I think it's time to let the next young manager have a go at a big club because I predict we'll only continue to slide under Moyes.

I was going to give my opinion, but someone beat me to it almost word for word!!

So I'll just say :

What Bill Goodall said!!!!!!

Newcastle sacking their manager is once again an example that they really don?t have a clue. Ridiculous to say the least.

I've no doubt that there are chairman around the country who may have got rid of Moyes by now but then Moyes is in a unique position at Everton, Kenwright in his one and only blind act of inspiration knows he would be mad to sack Moyes.

He has almost single-handedly dragged Everton kicking and screaming into the 21st century. He took a team of aging has-beens and second-rate players from the brink of relegation to become one of the better respected teams in Britain on a budget that his closest rivals spend on the boardroom tea and biscuits.

We have an excellent squad but this season have been let down by misfiring individuals: Howard, Jagielka, Heitinga, Arteta, Saha, Yakubu and Beckford. Injuries to Rodwell, Osman and Fellaini haven't helped so he is rather limited in ability to chop and change his team according to form.

Last summer was the time that alarm bells should have started clanging loudly when it was obvious to everyone we needed a decent striker and his only options were a 3rd Division free transfer and a 2nd Division Portuguese academy player. As much as he's worked miracles over the years, there are limits, especially when Stoke, Sunderland, Birmingham etc, who were nowhere near our level, are blowing us away in the transfer market.

Despite that, we dominate the majority of games we play in and, if we were rich enough to have a Carlos Tevez or Darren Bent, we would undoubtedly be amongst the top 4 in this division. Arsenal have lost as many games as we have yet look where they are. Our lack of a goalscorer has probably cost us as many as 14 points.

Another thing we would lose is a manager who can pick up players such as Baines, Cahill, Arteta, Lescott, Coleman, Jagielka, Peinaar, to name a few, for relatively little ? which means our squad now is a far bigger asset than the shambles he inherited.

Touche, Bill (#5), all my thoughts laid out by you! When you care, it hurts!!

Roy Coyne - wow talk about Moyse pro. Dear god man...if Moyse walked or was sacked, you can bet there'd be a queue right down county road to manage us.

We are an institution, we have the best fans , the best support.. coyle and di matteo at lesser teams, who are decent managers on similar budgets would jump at the chance to manager us, no doubting it.

I am sick to the back teeth of stupid statements such as we have no money who'd want to manage us , or for an already used example anyone who wants to achieve anything wouldn't come here.

If Moyse went tomorrow, we'd be unindated with a long list of names who'd be interested..

O.K. Steve # 10, here are a few who I believe would give value for money.

1. Steve McClaren.
2. Slaven Bilic
3. Manuel Pellegrini.

All attainable for the salary Moyes is on.

I still think that if we loose Moyes we'll be relegated within a couple of years. I really think he's holding the club together which is odd because the vast majority of supporters on TW think the complete opposite. Forums like this would be pretty dull if we all thought the same though I suppose.

Paul - You may well have a point about a fresh start n all, but to use the 3 points you made is just laughable.

Newcastle have once again hit the 'SELF DISTRUCT' button. To even suggest that sacking their manager was a good choice is beond anyone with half a brain.

Blackburn sacking the big nobhead is slightly different, but almost as idiotic. We'll just have to wait and see what results come their way.

And the Redshite will always moan if they aren't challenging - that's why they're always moaning! They are a mid table squad, no better.

The problem for us lot, is we all pretty much agree with DM that we have this talented bunch of players, who tend to dominate just about every match they play... but can't seem to win. Most neutrals would say we have the 5th or 6th best squad in the Prem, and I'd agree. Weahter we need a new manager or not to get the results - I'm still just about hanging on to Moyes (albeit by a thread).

After watching Saturday's game I am inclined to go with the flow and replace Moyes but I also feel that if he did what a lot of people on here have been saying for months - change tactics basically - we;d do a lot better., As for candidates for his job I certyainly would'nt touch Bilic with a barge pole. He stitched us up good and proper if I remember correctly and McClaren has'nt exactly set the world alight has he ?

Sack Moyes what a Joke.....

We have been good most of are games just cant score i have looked at some stats and everton have more chances than most teams playing in the prem. Saha was are top scorer last season and not scored this season reason why we not doing better. NOT Moyes

Tony #18, McClaren took a poor Middlesborough side to a U.E.F.A. Cup Final and an F.A. Cup Final. He went to Holland and won the Dutch title. He has been the manager of England. He is now the only Englishman to have managed in the German Bundesliga. What have the Romans ever done for us ?

We have won three of 17 games this season, and got knocked out of the Carling Cup again in the second round.

Kevin #20 Were are Middlesborough now two cup finals and in the championship. Everton in Euro Cup apart from this year and one cup final and still in the Prem.

What would it take in compensation for Everton to get rid of Moyes? £3m? £4m? Even £5m?

What is each place in the league standing worth come the end of the season? £1-1,5m?

So, the difference in finishing 8th or 15th in the league would amount to around £7-10m in prize money?

My point? Maybe replacing Moyes wouldn't hit the club as hard financially as we might think. Pherhaps there's even a chance Everton may save a few quid or breake even, and improve team performances, by replacing David Moyes.

Groundhog thread day?

The story of modern football.
No money = No cups.
Everton= no money, no cups.
Look at the table. Money at the top, no money at the bottom.

Get Duncan as manager. Let him kick each player in the balls. That will get them playing.

Pellegrini doesn't speak English, otherwise I'd have him in a flash.

Charles King's four options are a very good point, although I think its a combination of all four that keeps me just about backing him.

1. I don't believe in blind loyalty, I'd say its more that Moyes has built up credit over the years, although he's rapidly spending it.

2. I'm relatively happy with him in the bigger picture (although not right now). To use Michael Kenrick's logic from after our best performances, how bad we are now shows just how good we've been for the last nine years, it could have all been like this and it hasn't.

3. Belief, again, he's built up credit that he's rapidly spending. If he won't attack, try new things and try to innovate (which he is not showing signs of doing), then my belief will diminish completely, it's already evaporated significantly.

4. Fear, I am genuinely worried about who might get appointed, better the devil you know and all that, although again, I'm nearing the tipping point on that.

I cannot believe there is anyone that actually goes to the game that still supports Moyes!

Our problem is the previous blind support for both BK and Moyes and the constant unfulfilled promise 'we will turn this around'

BK and Moyes have achieved nothing at Everton whatsoever ? Don't bother to mention an FA Cup final appearance after beating the Manc reserves who didn't want to be there) or the embarrassing and expensive brief flirts with Europe. We havent actually won anything in this time and need to get real.

Moyes has to go, what will it take relegation? We can then get a Manager in with real balls to tell BK to fuck right off and sell what little stake he still holds, the Westend beckons.

Not a knee jerk reaction, this ? Moyes has been shit for years.

What does it say about Everton Football Club!!?? That we are not knee jerk pricks and that we appericiate what Moyes has done for us! Manage your expectations, with the board and the money we have, we have been punching way above our weight for a while now.

Stop pretending we are anything other than a mid table team at the moment, until, if ever, we get investment we will be lucky to keep finishing where we have been.

If I didn't love Everton so much, I would love us to get rid of Moyes, get someone else in and get relegated, so I could say "I told you so" but I really couldn't stand to see us in the lower leagues.

I don't think there's a chance in hell of Moyes leaving in the forseeable future, because a) in Kenwright's world Moyes is a 'world class manager' and b) Moyes will never resign, so we are all probably wasting our time here.

But....i just hope that if at some point things became so bad that Moyes did leave, Martin Jol and Martin O'Neill are still available. I think Jol would be perfect for us, but he will probably be in a job soon.

We need a change because the date will be 1st January?

And why Moyes to go and not Kenwright?

It doesn't fuckin' matter who we get; we might as well stick with Moyes and his shite style of footie, as it keeps us in the top division each year - after all, that's all we can hope for.

If any of you lot out there think that we can win ANYTHING ever again on the budget we have, then you're sorely mistaken.

We just all have to admit that we'll never win the league again, unless someone buys the club who is worth £5bn and gives us £500m. Simple as that....

Stop fuckin' moanin' and get used to the status quo, coz it's really beginnin' to fuckin' bug me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Pellegrini just sign with Malaga about a month ago?

Oh, right then, Andy
That's us told
And here's me thinking you can win things with visionary, positive management at board and team level, a group of committed players playing in position and to their strengths, an ability to change and adapt tactics, a willingness to attack etc
Probably I've been watching and reading too much about Clough lately

Everton is in much the same situation as clubs like Newcastle and may be even Liverpool, now.

We have no money. A new manager will only come to Everton if the board offer a kitty for transfers to make the squad better and the board can not offer them that.

Should Moyes leave, he'll go somewhere where he can make a difference, whether that be Man Utd, Newcastle, Bolton or Spurs but it'll be for the challenge above anything else. That's the person he is.

I fully agree the squad should be performing much better than they are, whether that is Moyes' influence or Rounds, I do not know but I do know a long period with Rodwell and Fellaini in central midfield may well see a resurgent Everton.

If David Moyes was more adventurous in his tactics and showed more variety in his tactical approach he would be the ideal man ! However, he appears to show no signs of changing his tactics and I personally think that it would be in everyone's best interests if he left Everton.

I think that there are several coaches/managers out there who could do the job. You only have to look at Owen Coyle who has completely transformed the style of play of Bolton, with basically the same squad ,to see that a change of approach can work. Unfortunately David Moyes is too set in his ways.

My own personal favourite would be David Jones who has done a brilliant job at Cardiff City. Several times they have faced winding up orders and in the face of that it would have been a great acheivement just to keep the club in the Championship - the fact that he has kept them at in the promotion hunt is something of a miracle. He is a big Evertonian and I think he has "unfinished business" re the Premier League. I think that he would be a very good Everton manager.

Phil#32,
The sad thing is there won't be another Clough.
Money is everything now.

Spot on Andy Callan. With Kenwright and Moyes we have no chance of winning anything, with just Kenwright we have a chance of winning the Championship in a couple of years. Our 'History' is exactly that, in the past, Mourinho and Messi aren't coming, get used to it!

Quite agree with #34 Dave Jones would do a good job if you watch Cardiff at all they play football in a league which is difficult to play in. Also who says Kenwright wont sack Moyes after all Moyes has'nt had the dreaded vote of confidence yet!

Bill Goodall *5 - Good piece old lad, some very good points.

Jamie Crowley *7 - Me and you are on the same wave length mate, i'd rather see Moyesy take the shackles off the team and have em get at teams regardless cos atleast if we lost, we'll of lost having a real good go and that would be easier to stomach rather than the shite were producing at times this season through being reserved and defensively minded!.

The truth is, we cant afford to sack Moyes but if we carry on the way we are this season then he should do the decent thing and walk away at the end of the season and admit he can not take us any further.

But what worries me most is, after this season if we have struggled and stayed near the bottom reaches, what will happen to our team, who will want to stay and fight on and who will want to jump ship?.

Some of our players are wanted by the top teams in this league and who's to say they wont go after 2 dissmal seasons and no sign of investment to help us progress and get out of this shit situation, if it does come to the situation where players want out to further there careers and we need to rebuild with the cash we bring in from sales then i'd rather us give a new manager with new ideas and a fresh imputus the chance to take us on instead of Moyes.

Now if next season it comes to the point were we have to seel and sacrifice players for team building then i'd rather have a new manager in to spend the cash and rebuild cos in my eyes, Moyes as had is chance, i mean he eventually sold Lescott last season and bought Distin, Heitinga and Bily and only Distin is a regular, Heitinga gets the odd game in midfield, not his preferred position and Bily is lucky to come off the bench and the later two was big money signings by are standards and apparently last season aswell, we recieved a bid of £8m for Saha off Besiktas and knocked it back and we recieved a £6m bid for Yak this summer, a want away striker who doesnt even get a look in anymore and doesnt even get used from the bench and we knocked that back too but yet Moyes moans about having no money to sign a top striker he and we crave and yet he could of wheeled and dealed with those two dead woods to try and sort out the problem but didnt and i have no sympathy for him when he moans about it these days after he could of done something about it and with that type of decision making and wastefulness with money is why i wouldnt want him to be in charge if we was to rebuild all over again.

Dont get me wrong, im gratefull for what he's done at us but this season could be the one what makes him realise that he's took us as far as he can, this season he and us all thought this was going to be a big season for us, we all thought this squad was the best he as ever had and the one most capable of achieving something great and it looks like were going to fail miserably and if thats the case then its time to give someone else the chance to once again change our fortunes round IMO.

What is frustrating at the moment is that there is obviously nothing that much wrong with his tactics because apart from a handful of games we have been the better side but unable to make the possession/shots on target count.

We should have won against Wigan on Saturday comfortably but for some reason Cahill's touch left him and oh yeah Beckford is a crap player.

The last few games, should have beat Sunderland in the last second, Beckford blew it. West Brom....ermmmm..nothing to say.... Chelski, could have won it near the end but ...wait for it....Beckford blew it and on Saturday .....yes you have it again....Beckford, when onside, couldn't control the ball and blew it.

That alone is 6 extra points but I am not just blaming Beckford, it is all of them. Why can't anyone shoot? Where has everyone's composure went?

Tactically we are getting the chances but failing to convert, so all the rubbish about playing defensively isn't true. Our number of attempts at goal is probably more than the whole of last season already but the useless feckers in the middle just aren't giving us the goals the performances deserve. It's that simple. We can score, ergo we can't win.

Could we get a poll on the site to see what the overall opinion is?

Would be interested to see if there's a silent majority in favour of him staying or whether the overall tone of the site reflects the majority of fans.

Personally I'd stick with him and give him more time.

Owen Coyle? Burnley were heading straight back down when he jumped ship, He inherited a decent enough squad of players containing one Kevin Davies. a striker who would run through walls for his team mates. Ours won't even run, I'd have loved us to have signed him 3 or 4 years ago.

Dave Jones? Is that for when we end up in the Championship, Coyle could also be in that bracket.

(40) I agree Martin I imagine there is a 'not as vocal' majority who would leave Moyes on until the end of the season. The reality is that if we sack Moyes now then it could really disrupt the squad and it is building into a decent squad.

I'd have Martin O'Neil or Bilic picking from this squad of players over Moyes any day but if Moyes goes then we may see a player exodus as well. People are already sniffing around Rodwell, Baines, Jageilka etc. Heitinga and Pienaar will go (probably will anyway)

We could end up in a real mess and it wouldn't be O'Neil or Bilic taking over it would be Big Sam or Houghton and they'd really struggle to keep the team together or attract the right type of players.

I think we've just got to hope that we get a few key injuries so that the side picks itself. Kenright won't fire Moyes unless we get relegated or finish consistently a few places above the drop zone for the next few seasons. So we're stuck with him. Just have to get behind the team and hope that he gets Saha and Yak off the wage bill in Jan and gets someone decent in. (Again, never going to happen).

There are plenty of talented managers out there ? we just need to make a change to freshen everything up, from playing staff to supporters.

Moyes is on great money, so getting someone in wont be a problem ? send him on gardening leave until he gets another job (might save us some money, instead of paying his contract in full (mega-contract)).

Owen Coyle is doing great for Bolton (shows good unexposed managers are out there) ? O'Neill, Jol, Hoddle, Davey Jones (big Evertonian, done well in Prem with Saints), Neil Warnock (passionate)... etc ? there are loads.

Just GET ANOTHER MANAGER!

Everton can't afford to sack Moyes. End of.

Why are we under any illusion that we can win anything?? Nobody wins anything outside of the money boys, except for the odd league cup left out for clubs to nibble on when the big boys play their second string.

This is like groundhog post someone said, well that says enough in my eyes, just wait till the 3rd round of the cup day, that has Moyes groundhog day written all over it and then what?

Given the lists of managers presently suggested on TW it should no longer be allowed to say "who would you replace Moyes with?"

It is infantile, pointless garbage.

So, it's all about money
How much to...
tell a small, nippy player (or even 2 of them to loiter on the half-way line instead of getting in the way in the box when we're defending a corner
get the players practising moving about a bit when we get a throw in
teach players to pick up the ball if they happen to be near the touchline when we get a thow-in and (a bit quickly) throw it to an Everton player, especially one who's been practsising how to move about a bit and is, therefore, unmarked
encourage all players ro run away from their opponents into a bit of space (when not in possession of the ball) and shout "coooeeee, me, me"
change approach in a game if it's not going to plan A, BEFORE the stewards come out

That's enough for now...tea's ready

Tony J W. -

Yes Beckford has missed opportunities, but I think your criticism of him is harsh.

Currently, he's the ONLY player looking to break forward and make runs. When he comes on we're splitting their defense and stretching them. Why? Because he's making runs and our midfield can slot a through ball to him.

IMO he's made the side much more exciting and definitely more dangerous when he's been playing. The finishing isn't coming from our other two strikers... so why NOT start the man when he brings the above mentioned attributes when he's in a game?

I think the kid shows real aggression, helps our side stretch the opponent, brings pace, and definately brings that attitude you WANT from a striker - I'll shoot from fucking anywhere and scare the bejeezuz out of you when I don't have the ball by running my ass off, cutting through your back line and calling for the ball - and THAT opens more space up for the midfield.

Don't you agree? Would love to hear your analysis. Or do you prefer the ineffectual Saha coming good or the lazy burger eating Yak? Yak btw was coming around... then Moyes sat him.

Jamie, my analysis is that we have 3 misfiring strikers, 4 now that Vaughan is back.

Beckford may have aggression, fantastic!!! He has some good skills in that he can turn a player well but then when he tries to actually have a shot on target.......well fuck me!!!, I'm glad his goal at Chelsea fell to his head