Moyes Likes Them Flexible

The need to sign players who can play in a number of positions is the result of having a small squad, not the cause.

As for the progress of the younger players you mention stalling, there are probably different reasons for each. According to fans who have watched his progress, Baxter's problem was application and a lack of the ceaseless desire you need to make it at the top level.

Rodwell's might be confidence. What happened to the player who was smashing them in from 25 yards in the Europa League three years ago, or the one who marauded self-confidently through United's defence to bang one home in that 3-1 win at Goodison?

Not sure I have the answer but, certainly, it's far too soon to pass any judgement on Barkley's use in the side and you also have to consider how few of the Club's promising youngsters (from the Moyes era and before it) have actually gone on to enjoy sustained Premier League success.

The ageing squad worry is sometimes over done. Moyes will always be able to pick frees and waiffs looking to resurrect a career with us, and these have often been our best transfer moves – Martyn, Gough, Weir, Arteta, Pienaar, Hutchison, Gibson cost under £10m for the lot.

I don't have an issue with playing certain players in a number of roles other than no-one is up to the job of playing right midfield, and those defenders are defenders and can't play centre midfield – no names we know who you are.

No doubt his new squad would be bigger, with more depth of cover. But how many top strikers would he want? Actually, just one, as in 4-5-1. No doubt his new-found buying power would give him more attacking options from midfield, but I'd bet he'd miss Neville. Who knows, he might even take him with him.

So yes, the tiny budget has dictated the size and shape of the squad to a great extent. Moyes, however, is anything but flash and most of his players reflect this – just good hard-working pros like Carsley and Stubbs. And if the boss says you're playing left wing today, that's what you do, or try to do. Call it flexibility if you like, but I'll bet that Davey was brought up to believe that you can make a little go a long way, and I think we see that in his management style.

I see nothing wrong with having a few versatile players but would rather see most players brought to the club to a specific job.

Hibbo, Ossie and Rooney are the only regular Prem players from Goodison and Moyes inherited them, there are huge question marks about Rodwell and Barkleys position as "saviour" based on a fleeting glimpse is just desperation.

Add in the reputed "best player" of the current crop - Baxter - falling away and you have to ask what's going on?

Piss poor return from Moyes compared to his only peers Wenger and Ferguson and is unrelated to money,

Based on this don't ask about the future.

Not sure you can call a lot of those players 'utility' players. Hibbo is not a CB and is only played there in emergency; likewise Neville, who is actually a full back and nothing else (yet we persist with him in midfield). Heitinga is not and never will be a midfielder. Anichebe is not and will never be a winger and Cahill is/was not really a central midfielder – he kind of does not really have a position, hence we call it the 'Cahill role' of being a nuisance to opposition defenders.

To an extent, Moyes has been forced to play players out of position at times due to a small squad and to an extent you have to scratch your head as to why he plays/played certain players in positions to which they are obviously not suited. Rodwell and Anichebe on the wing spring to mind.

One of the many critisicms aimed at Moyes on this site in the last few years has been 'square pegs in round holes', where the manager for some reason consistently played players out of position, when he could have played others in their 'natural' position.

Replacing ageing players should not be too much of a problem as there are always free available and the older players leaving will give some room on the wage bill.

Personally I would rather see players played where they are supposed to and not attempt to play them elsewhere just to fit them in the team. The Jags, Distin and Heitinga conundrum is an example.

As for the youth front, we have not been great in recent years in bringing any player through, which is odd given how good supposedly our youth facilities are.

You nail it for me with this last sentence — "we have not been great in recent years in bringing any player through, which is odd given how good supposedly our youth facilities are."

That has to be a valid concern. It relates to points on other threads, largely prompted by Baxter's departure, but there has to be a concern that the well-hyped facilities at Finch Farm and a Youth Academy second to none are not exactly producing the goods.

Players like Wilshere and Rooney would have come through regardless. The academies, looking at our own and across the road, have failed when you consider players that come through over the 'normal rate'.

A large squad would mean lower wages must be paid: that way lies bottom six.

Finch Farm is looking for diamonds in a pool of shite – we only have to come up with the odd one to make it worthwhile.

Jack Rodwell and Ross Barkley have been linked to Man Utd in recent years for figures approaching £20M. How can we afford to have boys like this rotting on the bench at times, and in Barkley's case rotten in the reserves. Moyes doesn't like flair safe safe approach is always no 1. It's obvious something has gone wrong with these players when they can't make the step up from youth football to the senior team.

Baxter was the next big thing but he, like so many others, hasn't been given a chance with the first team. Now fair enough if these lads aren't good enough... but I can't help thinking that they are played out of position in many cases to make up for lack of squad size.

Seamus Coleman is a perfect example for me of how Moyes's mind works: bought from Sligo Rovers as a right back (impressive at that) and converted into a stop-gap right winger, loaned out to Blackpool, helps them get promoted and has a blinder at right back... Back to Davie's School of Science and "There you go, son, back to the wing," with, "You can't make a mistake out there."

And if "Wilshere and Rooney would have come through regardless", which I think is true – doesn't that also reflect poorly on the ability and function of the Academies? We hear so much warm and fuzzy guff about them spouted in the local rags and on the Official Website but, when push come to shove, what exactly are they producing?

Andy (#495), if your point is that we may have undiscovered or hidden gems at the Finch Farm, just gagging to get their chance... Yes, I'd love to agree with you. And I agree totally about Moyes's propensity to go for trusted experience over untried youth. Pragamtism (I hate that word) at its most... er... pragmatic!

You say we can't afford to give youth a chance but some senior players are being picked week-in, week-out without producing.

Lets look at the existing squad. Hibbert has played emergency centre half on occasion. After a very brief early doors stint at right, and an emergency mid slot the didn't work the Jag has been nailed on centre half. Distin has covered left back occasionally, we have no cover so the problem is? The other alternative would be Phil Neville who has played international football there and had played deep midfield at United and played it well, as he has many times here. In a 5 man mid its hardly unheard of to play a holding player in front of the back four for solidity/covering and whilst its fashionable to have a downer on Neville, he actually doesnt play it too bad. You have got to have the protection there. Johnny Hetinga can play there no problem if he needs. Moyes did play him right back and on a few occasions, and since making it clear it isn't his thing thats been it. Lescoyy broke into the England squad at left back and was fantastic for us there and centre half. He was good enough to play there and its a tribute to Lescott that, built as he is, he managed to break into international football playing left back. He was good enough to do it and when he got his chance at centre half with us he took it. Theres no issue!!

Regarding midfield, everyone on here goes on about "wingers". They, as they exist in the mindset of fans, barely exist anymore, if at all. Flexible attacking midfielders/attackers are the way football is now, comfortable playing all across the pitch. The move toward flexible 4-3-3's/4-5-1's with t he lone striker being king has finished the poacher and made flexible, athletic, mobile 6ft plus attacking forwards/midfielders rule has made this so. Taking a rather high level example, Ronaldo is just a roving bomb. United used to do a fair bit of 4-5-1/4-6-0 away from home in the Champions League, to my eyes, when he was there. He would play furthest forward, and just do damage wide, up top. he can do it all. And guess who used to do alot of left hand side of the 5/6 in those away performances? Yes, Rooney. Donovan isn't a "winger"....he's a wide attacking forward, probably best utilised in a 4-3-3, a formation we played at home last year on at least one occasion when he was here. Anichibe played the other side(!!) Now, yes, for me that was a step too far but I have seen him play right effectively sometimes and in the absence of a player like Donovan in the squad he HAS sometimes been the best option to get some pace into the side down that side. He cant play left to save his life.

Fellaini can play holding and off the striker cos he is talented enough to do so, nothing more so Moyes utilises this. Piennar and Ossie are good enough to play all across, Ossie is a tremendous squad player for us. They have good enough football brains to do this and manager have been using players in the wide midfield positions whose preference would be to play central for decades. It brings compactness and cohesion. Close to home both Trevor Steven and Kevin Sheedy wanted to play centre mid, or saw themselves as that. Kevin Richardson was always played wide by Kendal but played central for Arsenal and Villa.

Joe Cole always wanted to be the "number 10", never came close to it in reality, not even at club level and ended up being disciplined into his best football on the left by Mourinho who made him an international footballer. Beckham was a tremedous player until 2003/04, when his legs started going and he couldnt play to the energy that was crucial to his game right side, he always fancied himself as a centre mid and wasnt a very effective one for me. Gerrard played loads of wide under Benitez. Danny Murphy played left loads under Houllier. Arteta played probably his best Everton football wide, was great central before the injury and these plays deep lying player cos his mobility has gone. Its hardly novel.

Much ado about nothing.

Because the players are not coming through into our first team and when they leave they are not going to another Prem team (except Gosling).

Okay, we don't shape up too well against Barcelona but then who does? Time will tell if this current team is a freak of nature or whether they really have discovered some magic sauce.

But if we look at the more realistic comparisons – ie, Everton youth production in the past and other Premier League clubs in the present, I don't think there is anything exceptionally bad about our record. In fact, it seems quite good as we regularly have 3 or 4 homegrown players in the team.

I don't recall Everton teams of the past being stuffed with wonder kids from the youth system, nor those of any current Premier League teams.

West Ham had a good crop a few years ago – Carrick, Lampard, Cole. Man U had a good crop 15 years ago – Scholes, Beckham, the Nevilles etc. But these (possibly like Barcelona) are very much the exception. Liverpool have in the past pulled through one class player every few years: MacManaman, Owen, Fowler, Gerrard, Carragher (using the word "class" in the same way that Hibbert is Premier League class) – but thankfully this production line has long since dried up.

The foreign model works I think as they have their own lower sides and a loan system where young players move around more effectively. They certainly are not playing no-mark academy games or uncompetitive reserve games (senior players rarely play, and when they do how much of a shift goes in?).

The comparison to Barca is a bit tough. Yes, they have a great youth system, but I assume that them and Real get the pick of most top Spanish kids? They are certainly helped by the vast turnover that they generate. I think those two Spanish clubs usually have a combined annual transfer budget of around £100m. If they can sell off a bit of deadwood and a couple of kids who don't make it, they have a ruthless system of ensuring all players deliver or you are replaced by someone who will (internally or externally). This is the key to any successful side – competition for places (New Zealand rugby, Brazil, Spain etc).

The first is a natural extension of having a small squad with limited funds. I see no harm in it. The second however could be very damaging to the development of young players. Coming through as a young player as argued above is extremely and increasingly difficult in today's environment of zero mistake tolerance. A player will surely stand more chance if able to focus on and perfect one speciality position? Of course there will be exceptions but I agree that Rodwell in particular has suffered due to never really specialising in one position. His deployment all over midfield have meant that he does not seem to have particularly advanced his understanding of either a defensive or offensive midfielders position or what to do on the wing. Early signs are that Barkley may have lost his way a little too...

I am all up for bringing utility players in to help a thin squad but give the youngsters one position to focus on; it will increase their chances of attaining a high enough level in that position to be able to compete at the top.

A basketball team at the start of the year always had a first team v 2nd team match, but the 1st team had to play out of their positions. The 2nd team won everytime. Reverting back to their best positions the 1st team won resoundingly.

Nothing infuriates me more than players out of position. It makes an excellent player a mediocre one. The fact that Moyes can't see it is my biggest gripe. The implications of players not having a "best" role and playing to that are hugely negative.

In South African rugby, the roving backline players who are seen to be able to do "anything" have in some cases blown careers of the deemed most talented of their generation, e.g. Ruan Pienaar.. and come close to breaking others e.g. Frans Steyn.

Spot-on, and that should be the attitude here – or are we so skint we have to play the mediocrity card? Surely we have youngsters who are growing old waiting for their chance... and if they are not getting that chance because they are not 'good enough', get rid, à la Baxter.

As for Rooney benefitting from playing all the time at Man Utd, he hasn't improved much since he left has he, and there were reports not so long back that a lot of his injuries are a result of playing too much when he was younger.

It's been 8 years since we sold Rooney, who is now 26 btw. Since then, Rodwell is the only player to have come through. I am not including Anichebe given he is not good enough to be in the starting XI (whether that's because of injuries or constantly playing on the wing, I don't know). So since Rooney thats 8 years and 1 player – maybe I'm wrong but those are pretty poor stats IMO. Either the local area now has a significantly lower number of kids of a high enough standard than in the past (doubtful) or there is something wrong with the whole youth set-up.

What it means too is that because you need all ten outfield players working together to make an efficient unit, the ability to carry one or two youngsters is limited if not impossible.

So, youth is not getting the chance to step up on a consistent basis because the team cannot afford the luxury of carrying anybody to bring them through.

To me it smacks of Moyes the conservative pragmatist, scared to take chances so he sits with the ones he knows. We all know it, we see it in his team selections every week. It is the one defining frustration that many supporters have. The only time he will take a chance is when there is nothing riding on it... or we are playing the other lot.

Not every player in our youth ranks is going to make it, especially the ones who think they deserve first team football at the age of 17 or that £20k a week isn't enough for them and decline contracts. Man Utd just lost Ravel Morison and Pogba; Macheda also seems to have gone down the pan... in fact they haven't had a kid for ages, must be a rubbish academy.

Last time I looked everyone was trying to buy our kids, 3 of whom are in the England U-19 starting line up. It's not the world's best academy but it's one of the better ones in the Premier League. Some people seem to think that for some reason whenever the words Finch Farm are mentioned that Kenwright is there sowing 50 pound notes into the turf and that we should therefore be producing more kids than Man U, City, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool. We haven't even been at Finch Farm that long.

My nephew plays for Everton's academy. The England U-16 training squad has been announced and there are 6 Everton players attending (including my nephew who I am not going to name as I don't want to put any pressure on him).

In my nephew's year group, I think he is the only genuine Everton supporter in the group; he's a season ticket holder and goes with me. The rest of them are nominally Liverpool fans.

The team play Liverpool twice a year and thrash them every time, just about. Liverpool are also trying to poach the best players from this side, many as I've just said are Liverpool fans.

This is my main point, these lads who are Liverpool fans could easily switch to Liverpool if they wanted, but they stay because the coaching is so good and they feel happy and wanted at Everton.

The Academy are doing a fantastic job in producing and nurturing raw potential that these boys have.

What everyone needs to understand that it is a really gargantuan jump from playing same age football to all age. I actually think that we've done really well to produce as many players as we have for the first team. Yes, they're not all Rooneys but the job of the Academy is to produce players for the first team.
Colin Harvey, who knows a thing or too about this, said you will be really lucky if on average you produce 1 player from each age group into the first team as a professional player.

The last stellar crop was the 1997-98 youth side which had Osman, Hibbert, Richard Dunne, Danny Cadamarteri, Francis Jeffers. Three of those are still playing Premier League and Cadamarteri and Jeffers are still playing somewhere I think. Phil Jevons was also part of that group, I think and he's had a decent career down the lower leagues as well.

Many of the academy coaches think my nephew's age group is the best since then, but they've all got a long way to go.

As the people with sense have said, our academy graduates are not going to higher level, similar level or even lower level Premier League clubs. None of them. There's not one player who's come through our academy, not been given a chance by Moyes and then gone on to better things.

2 of the 3 youngest ever premier league goalscorers were under Moyes at the time. The same people who are claiming Moyes doesn't give youth a chance are the ones who say Rodwell and Anichebe aren't good enough. Make your minds up.

Simple fact is we have a team full of internationals. Someone like Luke Garbutt or Shane Duffy has to be better than Baines or Heitinga to get a game, they're not so they don't. Pretty simple. A friend of mine is a coach at youth level for a Championship Side, last year he told me Barkley was the most talented player he'd ever seen at that age - but would get 'murdered' in the Premier League because his decision making was poor and he was too casual on the ball. Lo and behold he got a couple of games for us and made mistakes in these areas.

Also some people are too wrapped up in their football manager world, where you have specific positions for everyone. Being able to play as an attacking midfielder or a defensive midfielder is not versatility or utility, it's just normal. As is playing a full back further forward or occasionally asking a centre half to cover full back. Mancini, Ferguson, Wenger, even the incredible Martinez all do it so why shouldn't Moyes?

The hype around Barkley is ridiculous - he has suffered two horrendous injuries and is lucky to still be playing. There are countless examples of players who have suffered serious injuries which has knocked their form, fitness and confidence. The best examples at EFC are Michael Branch, Cadamateri and Michael Ball, whilst ofcourse Lie Tie was never the same - seemed to duck challenges.

Rodwell is naturally a centre half, but has no chance of getting in ahead of Heitinga, Distin or Jagielka. Two of these blokes are internationals and Distin was our player of the year. Rather than consign him to the bench, he is being developed into a midfielder and has actually done quite well, even for England, in this position.

I can't believe Moyes is getting stick for Rodwell's development - the boy has done very well to have made the national team as a midfielder. He could have played in the Euros or in the Olympics had he not suffered from injuries. I watched the game vs Sweden where he played out of his skin.

He needs to be fully fit to play in midfield and we need to cut him and Barkley some slack.

Jimmy Kelly – but surely the only way Barkley will improve his decision making is to get regular football? If he's not ready at Everton he should be loaned out to a Championship or League One club where he can learn the game. Otherwise you could end up with another Baxter situation, ie, promising debut and then sitting on the bench doing FA for 3 years. Maybe if Baxter was loaned out at 17/18, his could have been a different story.

It may well be the case that a spell on loan would help, but I would be wary of thinking that it is always the answer. Sometimes hard work on the training ground is a better way of working on these things. It may also be that they decided he wasn't quite ready for first team football at all and so tried to get him playing again with his own age group.

As has been said, his injuries were terrible and take some recovering from.

It says a lot to me that kids, like Nick Powell, seem to jump ahead in the queue when they reach the end of their teens. I put it all down to first team real competitive football. I hope it is a trend we will see more of. Long may it continue. The worst thing for Baxter was he was too sheltered in our Academy.

It also gives us an idea of bench strength against the best in that league.

Academies are hit and miss and some years are better than others but ONE player in going on for a decade is pretty piss poor by any standards. Especially when put into context of how little money we have. I would have thought more focus would have been placed on 'growing our own' or at least be better at nicking teenagers from other clubs when they are 15-17 and bringing them through ourselves, like Arsenal do on a regular basis. Many will fall by the side but I'd have hoped for more than ONE a decade!

Barkley, Green, Garbutt etc may come good (I bloody hope so anyway) but if being honest the youth system has produced nearly fuck all in the last few years. At least in terms of players that have stepped up to the first team.

I'd say you are being a little harsh though, as Rodwell and Anichebe are deemed to be good enough by the manager (whether you agree is not really relevant) and Vaughan was very much a first teamer who was ruined by injuries and is still in the Premier League.

So that's 3, and if Barkley does become a regular this year as expected (or Duffy, Garbutt or any of the others) then your '1 in almost a decade' becomes the slightly less sensational '4 in 8 years'.

Also we have tried to bring in good young players from elsewhere (Green, Kelly, Vellios, Gueye, Silva, Junior etc) but it's not a guarantee. You use the example of Arsenal but for every Fabregas they've had a Merida, Vela or Aliadiere.Just because you look great at 16 doesn't mean you're going to be a world beater.

It's not like I'm writing Rodwell or Barkley off, far from it; I'm just saying that I think given how hard it is for them to breakthrough that youth players benefit from the clarity of having one position to learn and focus on. Of course versatility is a blessing not a curse but I can see the OP's point that specialism is more likely to gain the highest results.

Paul agree 100 percent with you and Lou Macari players need a certain amount of versatility but young players need to learn their own position to develop quicker. What strikes me is the amount of players we have that dont play in the correct position.

Sam... versatility does show great talent and is often only in the best of the best.... but it is a curse in my opinion. I have only ever seen specialists nail down positions you feel would be the best for the all-rounder.

The question of success with regard to buying teens over 16 who should spend a couple years and then make a step up... Have we done this successfully?

Reason is I couldn't think of any.... maybe Gosling.

I mean at 16,17, 18 .. we should have a much firmer idea of if they are any good? We also go this route to avoid the big fee when they come good.... but so far it has never happened.

Let's not judge the current crop that might or might not make it. For 10 years we have Gosling as the only success... and we fucked that up. To me, that is even more of an indictment than the academy players we haven't taken into our first team.

That is a diabolical conversion rate of scouted talent. But so far off the top of my head we have had:
J Silva, Mustafi, Orenuga, Vidarsson, da Silva, Jutkiewicz, Agard.
I'm sure there are more.... I don't get it.

Apologies if not (my memory has been known to fail) but if so then surely there's no harm done?

I understand the point about 'specialists' but I'm not sure it's that important. Rooney, Gerrard, Joe Cole, Henry, Carragher and Kolo Toure are just some off the top of my head who appear to have done okay for themselves despite playing in different positions when they were younger.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/8324495/Henry-Winter-Premier-Leagues-elite-plan-radical-overhaul-of-academy-system-to-help-top-schoolboy-talent.html

What you're looking for then is players who are a bit rough but look like they might make it with a bit of work. The chances of them being a runaway success are slim, you're hoping that they will turn into good players for the squad or make you a bit of money. I would say Gosling, Vellios, Gueye and Coleman (older but very inexperienced) have all been beneficial to the squad after being brought in and therefore can be deemed a success.

The future looks a little brighter on the youth front, but then it always does as we always have relatively good youngsters. Point is only one has made it into the first team in almost a decade (and he's injured half the time and no one seems to even know what his best position is).

We can go on about what may come in the future, fact however is that the past decade or so has been shite on the youth development front - for whatever reason.

Personally I agree with you that Anichebe isn't a great player but, as you touch on in your post, Moyes rates him. That's the role of the academy, to provide players that the manager wants to use in his squad, not players that the fans like.

With the exception of the odd one or two, every promising 18-year-old seems to disappear very quickly and drop down the divisions or just become a bench warmer at the club that nurtured him.

There's 3 players at Sunderland (Richardson, O'Shea and Brown), Rossi is at Villarreal, Pique at Barca, Gibson is here, and Wellbeck is their current centre forward. I wouldn't be surprised if I missed a few as well; that Macheda lad would make it here.

Same with Arsenal – they've have a load of players graduated to top flight footy. The comparison with the only other manager gifted a significantly long tenure, Moyes, is stark.

As Denis Richardson says, it's just about arguable that we've had one player make it. One of the main reasons for keeping a manager this long, suffering the uncompetitiveness, would be the "behind the scenes" blueprint... Hasn't happened.

If they were good enough, we could flog the "stars", clear the debt, build a stadium, etc etc... and it's what should be happening – or at least we should see some evidence of it... Nada!

Arguably can also add the brazilian twins, given they were brought in when 17 and spent a some time going through the manure youth set. Man U apparently spotted them when they were 15 and invited them at that time to train with them for a few weeks. Then arranged to take them permanently two years later.

Remember reading on another thread someone going on about Man City not having any players either come through their youth set up, and that they had bought eveyone they have. Conveniently forgetting the likes of Hart, Ricards, Johnson, Onuoha etc.

Anyway, I'll say no more on the topic as apparently 'my opinion isn't really of any importance in this matter'.....(as if anyones on TW is, in the grand scheme of things...).

It's a bit like me saying 'yes officer I understand that you think I've had 7 pints and am therefore over the limit but I don't count the first 6 because they weren't very nice'.

Also Barry I assume if you're counting Richardson, Brown and O'Shea then you're also counting Rooney, Osman, Hibbert, Jeffers, Ball and Dunne? Or would that not suit your agenda? I assume not seeing as you're also including players bought from top European clubs at 17 years of age, something which for some unknown reason Everton seem to struggle to do.

He was highly rated but has had terrible luck with injuries (played less games than Vaughan). An ex-Everton lad at some point I think.

It sickens me to think we let Ruddy go, I'd take him over Howard any day. In fact, I think Howard is the most overrated 'keeper in the Prem. [Kinda going off base here but had to get it of my chest.]

However, the need to use players in different positions does not make the player versatile by default. Phil Jagielka being a prime example. He is a centre back, and a good one at that, but he is never a right back or a midfielder. Yes, he has played in those positions but he rarely performed well in them.

The same applies to this extract taken from original text:

Tony Hibbert - RB, CB (2)
Phil Neville- RB, LB, DM CB (4)
Sylvain Distin - CB, LB (2)
Tim Cahill- MF, AMC, FW (3)
Leon Osman- Anywhere across the Mid, FW (4)

After their first choice positions, each of those players can fill in other role at a push. Distin did ok in a few games at left back but he is a centre back and only a centre back. Neville is the same, he should be at RB or not at all. Tony Hibbert had a very good game at home to City but he is not a CB and never will be. Also, Tim Cahill is an appalling central midfielder and Leon Osman should never be used out wide. Seamus Coleman will never be a midfielder and the same goes for Gueye, Heitinga and Anichebe.

Fellaini is probably one of the few who can actually play well in multiple positions. Players are used in various positions as we have no other option but that doesn't not make that player versatile. This whole "Moyes likes versatile players" thing is a myth.

We have been crying out for wingers for a decade! Moyes hasn't bothered to address it. Even Pienaar was never played on the wing before he came here. Fernandes was shoved out there. Osman too. No doubt Naismith will be next...

West Brom away scored the only goal - 3 points
Villa away scored one goal in a draw - 1 point
Wigan away scored one goal in a draw - 1 point
West Brom at home scored one goal in a 2-0 game again not the conclusive winner - 3 points*
Sunderland at home scored 1 goal in a 4-0 game, hardly the winner - 3 points*

Conclusively without prejudice he earned the team 5 points hardly the millions you claim, go for his cup goal against Sheffield Utd and that again was in a 3-1 game not the conclusive winner

He had the best season of his career last season with 6 goals but returned zilch the season before and just 1 the year before that.

That's what annoys me, he's always going to ground and then whining about it. Some fans decry Osman for being knocked off the ball easily but at least he gets stuck in and doesn't sit there waving his arms about.

My agenda is Moyes record with youth is woeful, all those you mention Moyes inherited - only Rodwell and Ruddy are making a go in the Prem and could be classed as his.

Throw in all the "jam tomorrow" names you want they're NOT first teamers, no way round it after 10 yrs only matched by you know who it's crap.

It's symptomatic of his "blowing with the wind" management - no discernible plan at all, and as for the cuckoo who said it's down to money - ha! I bet if the chips are cold at Finch Farm it's the friggin' money.

And who exactly is bringing home grown players through? and I don't mean those who buy top international talent, and then develop them for a couple of years. We brought through Vaughan and sold him, Anichebe despite his injuries has offered something, and didn't Osman come through under Moyes? Rooney aside, we also look like bringing Rodwell through and hopefully Barkley, which is as good as most teams in the division.

Sorry Jim you're right there Moyes has got a discernable plan.

Start every season like a dog's dinner and play defensive garbage football season upon season with the odd purple patch when Donovan arrives without twigging the coincidence, oh wrong again!!

He did twig and put all his skill and expertise in forward play to buy Bily - what a 9 million quid waste that was, nearly 2 years that money was tied up while he dithered ffs - a Moyes signature piece of not knowing what to do next when everyone else did.

But it matters not a jot to the likes of you does it? As long as you can refer back to Walters days and smugly say "top 8", any old shite out at Goodison will do.

Get a grip that was 10 years ago we've done fuck all with Moyes except pray at the altar of the sainted "4th". Worse still he's overseen some of the most disgraceful games of abject surrender this club has seen since the war.

The fundamental thing Moyes should have done when he walked into Goodison knowing the state of the place was provide a good youth program, it was/is the only route to break this glass ceiling of mid table mediocrity. What REAL evidence is there he did that?

He inherited Osman, Rooney and the smattering of others you and others allude to probably thinking "oh marvellous this is what happens here!" but bar Rodwell it's been all if's, but's and maybe's and jam tommorrow.

It's there for all to see except those with their head stuck somewhere dark.

He has overseen some pretty shocking games I agree, but I would be interested in an answer to that question.

I would love to see Victor Anichebe prove his critics wrong. I t seems to me that ,sometimes, home grown players are taken for granted and that too much is expected of them.

It comes down to what you want from EFC.

If you see what's happened these last 10 years as acceptable, to be celebrated even, there are no words that can change your mind.

If you're of a mindset that top 8 by ANY means including a style so flawed it intrinsically fears and therefore loses big games (we all know them) then you rail against it.

As I've said countless times there are "reasons" if you're in the former group, "excuses" if you're the latter.

Moyes is pivotal he's either the hero putting up with "outrageous fortune" or the accomplice to BK raking it in at a job he'll never better.

If we're honest it what made Liverpool great over a 25 year period of uncharterted success home and abroad. I say that as our total set up means this is he only hand we can play. To play a beautiful game would mean that the manager and every player with a transfer fee (pretty much) would need to leave to provide the resources and free up wages. It would mean a complete leap in faith that it would work (easy for Swansea as they had nothing to lose).

The purists (Wegner, Rodgers) are flawed that they think they can play the barca way. The barca way with a worldwide budget, huge turnover, core strength and true global youth policy.

I say this as I don't have a problem with Moyes tactics as long as it brings success. Has he had success - Mixed. No one over the 10 years has done better with similar limited resources. He hasn't won a trophy and his style would suggest that we aren't a cup team (not enough goals in us). We are a side that beats who we expect to beat (usually) and lose to who we should expect (and usually go down without a wimper).

After derby defeats I bite my lip and wish he would go. However, did I expect to get to the semi with the team at the start of last year - nope. Do I see some good things from this new side - maybe. Moyes does need to deliver something, he isn't the young bright manager he once was, and I would think some in the squad will want out after this one pls his deal is coming to an end. The mob is getting bigger, but it can be silenced. Pivotal season.

"A beautiful game"? Big misnomer this, if I quote Swansea it's because IN RELATIVE TERMS it could be argued they have surpassed the Moyes era. Getting promoted to the Prem and competing was a feat unthinkable a few years back when they were bust. But vitally done in a different way, the home spun truism that containment and defence is the only way has been disproved. It's not they play the beautiful game it's they play a different game ie there is another way.

You ask "has he had success?" then perhaps inadvertently list all the things many see as outright failure and IMO fall into the spoof comparison trap ie "No one over the 10 years has done better with similar limited resources".

The problem is nobody has lasted 10 yrs - WHY? Whatever the answer it's an invalid comparison.

We all know the excuses/reasons they've been the same from day one it's just the longer it remains the same old same old the more people are saying enough is enough.

how - varied tactics, a bit of luck, players that are the greater sum of their parts and money. the thing is we all look at the squad and think - we need to sell Cahill and yobo. We still need pienaar, a right midfielder and a striker, possibly a cover left back and young keeper, and we have 23 pence to do it with.

They are versatile midfielder players who can play all across and off the striker. Theres a big difference to playing as a winger and being a versatile, adaptable midfielder who can play wide mid, keep you organised, compact, cohesive and bring some width to the play. A better example of this kind of player would be Park who has just moved from United to QPR. Whats his "position"? Doesn't really have one. He plays all across mid and has played, very effectively on occasion, off the striker. Valencia may be the best example of the modern hard working, strong, energetic, team ethic wide midfielder. He will never really put bums on seats or be a superstar but he is fucking brilliant for United and is getting better and better. Malouda was very, very good when at his peak. These players are not wingers.

I didn't rate Billy and he was the wrong signing on pretty much every level. But he certainly wasn't signed as a winger and he was never played as a winger. He played, in the main, narrow left mid. Or when he played right, narrow right. There is a big difference. He was, as we all know, shit at both of them. Billy doesn't really have a position as far as a I can see, he is just an adaptable ball playing attacking mid. As is Ossie.

Right side has been a problem for years and Ossie has often been handed the baton, one he probably would rather not have. It actually seem to take away a lot of his natural game and he seems to be able to play left better than right, where he can mix up his game better. I noticed in the Sunderland cup game at their place Ossie was playing very narrow, was drifting centrally, coming inside and influencing the play that way. I dont think Ossie is ideal there and it doesnt do him any favours, I think we all see that. He has been mixed there. When he plays against an energetic, physically superior pacey wide mid he gets pushed back, provides us with no options going forward and and struggles, as you rightly referred to the FA cup final. Unfortunately though we have had little option but to go with it. He does better against lesser opposition. But happens at every level of football. Beckham used to be completely out of his depth against Roberto Carlos, couldn't handle the pace and all round energy and physicality he brought. He completely neutralised Beckham and made him ineffective.

But it still doesn't mean that it isn't, can't or shouldn't be done. Barmby played his best football for us on the left. Giggs was an old style type winger and has completely changed his game as his physical skills have declined, whats his "position" now? Whats Nasris? Ozils? Fabregas? Riberys?

Scholes started off as an attacking centre mid, banged in 18 league playing off the striker one year and has become a Pirloesque deep lying tempo dictating mid. Lets take a bread and butter British player like Ray Parlour. By definition a centre mid but played right by Wenger in that perfectly balanced Overmars-Petit-Viera-Parlour mid. He brought balance and energy. Overmars, who actually was a winger, was the outlet and brought fearsome width and pace.

In the last great mid Wenger had, which I loved, Rosicky(pre injury)-Fabregas-Flamini-Hleb, Hleb wasn't a winger but he brough width, vision, created chances and fitted into the team ethic. Big difference. I don't think any player should be able to play anywhere, but midfielders especially are adaptable multi talented players. Its like saying a player is right footed so he should just concentrate on using that leg!! Pienaar is a "midfielder" who plays his best football on the left. Dick Fearons comments are unintentionally hilarious btw.

Nevermind, I'll explain.

You used O'Shea and Brown as examples of players who'd come through recently at United, yet both of them were already full internationals and had made their United debuts 3 years before Moyes took over at Everton. You also used Richardson, who made his debut 2 months after Moyes took over (and therefore about 2 years before Leon Osman for Everton). That's not really fair is it Barry?

I think you may be taking Kenwright's assertions that Moyes 'makes all the footballing decisions' a tad too literally. I'm pretty sure he doesn't head down to the local park to scout 11 year old right backs and therefore can't really be blamed for a perceived lack of academy graduates.

The top 8 thing and Prem survival is a "catch-all" it negates other clubs achievements in winning cups. When they revert to type and get relegated the suggestion is it's intertwined, you win a cup. you drop.

Complete bollocks of course but if you accept this skewed logic it props the "who's done better than Moyes" story.

If you ask who's WON stuff with the same or less than Moyes you could pick a 5yr period as you suggest and get a different story.

It's a distraction for me because in the round I think Moyes is a very ordinary man who has been at an extraordinary club picking up extraordinary wages for too long.

Wasn't really interested in sword fencing over Utd they've clearly brought through more youngsters to the top flight during Moyes reign anyone arguing otherwise is a bit strange,

You're welcome to try and disprove it just remember, Moyes has Rodwell to his name here and I'll concede Ruddy at Norwich.

Not so much "over my head" as bored rigid.

Based on the logic of winning a cup with dogmeat clubs you'd have to say Redknapp.

Add in his transformation of spurs near the bottom to CL via magnificent football, his purchase of Van de Vaart as Moyes invested the same on Bily, all in the blink of an eye and it's the obvious pick.

I think the obsession with stats so beloved of the Moyes clan is a problem, stats can be manipulated to suit. My criticism of Moyes is he has no plan, no real vision, his football is the standard relegation avoidance fayre any monkey could give.

On topic, his one advantage among his peers is his long term tenure the opportunity to develop his own from youth development.

What a waste of 10 years.

Looking beyond stats and using the old fashioned method of judgement ie your eyes and brain, we should kidnap Martinez when the time comes to rebuild IMO.

Obviously there's loads of options globally considering we pay top dollar but Moyes knows he's on a good screw here so I'm not holding my breath.

1) Spurs were in a false position because he took on another foreign manager who couldn't adapt to the game (cough AVB). Yes, he has played some good football, but he had inherited a good squad and plenty of dough to go with it (wages & transfer fees to go with it - remind me where Spurs are in the spending stakes?).
2) Yes, Van der Vaart was a good signing and Billy was awful, but Redknapp has bought some absolute stinkers in his time - they all have.

3) What a waste of 10 years? I think you under estimate the previously bad 10 years and squad with no transfer value other than Rooney and Gravesen - the base was woeful. That doesn't mean that I want to accept Everton as the gallant failures, its rather I appreciate what he has done, although I want Silverware this year (in the same way I wanted a good day out a couple of years ago).

Martinez no - only performs from April, at least with Moyes you get the value of Feb and March.

A foreign coach is probably the best option - but its a big big gamble and rarely works.

Examples - Osman, Chelsea FA Cup Final, MIA (Missing in Action) Hibbert torn a new hole, game lost (clear yet?)
Bily, played on the wing on several occasions, looked like a fish with a bicycle - useless, scored his goals coming back inside into his natural position like the screamer he scored against Portsmouth (has the point dropped?)

Moyes has had plenty of opportunity to play younger players in their right positions when there is an injury or suspension. Instead he chooses to play others out of position. Hibbo is not a CB, Duffy is; Neville is not a CM, Barkley is; Anichebe is not a winger, Gueye is... So it's not a case of having no money but Moyes having no faith in his youngsters or his purchases.

Moyes, for all his positives, also has a lot of faults. He lacks in the tactical side of the game and has little faith in his younger playing staff and has no killer streak.

As another poster has mentioned, Rooney went straight into the Man Utd side and has notched up over 250 games for them and 75 for England.

I'm not trying to convert you the Moyes debate is done I've answered your questions with polite justification and the undisputable fact is Redknapp won the cup with Portsmouth FC.

Based on silverware Mclaren, Mcleish and Souness qualify as better than Moyes. But this is the point depending on what parameters you set the oft quoted "who's done better blah blah blah" statement can be blown clean out the water. Particularly as Managers only get on average two years not ten!

When you whine about spurs riches dismissing Redknapps transformation from near relegation to CL you're doing exactly that - that's your choice, it still doesn't rub out his FA cup win at Portsmouth.

My "10 years wasted" related to youth development, I don't think you grasped that.

Martinez - my opinion based on his reconstruction of Swansea from the ashes leading ultimately to what they're doing now - quite remarkable.

Don't expect everyone to agree just my opinion.

I forgot to add, your comment about all managers drop clangers transferwise is fine but Moyes takes too long to sort it.

It's reputed the selling of Bily funded Gibson and Jelavic - if so, how long have we needed them.

I claim that as a plus for Redknapp.

Maybe Martinez is the right answer. Personally I am surprised his stock is so high given achievements. He might do a better job with our youth, but that wasn't why Moyes was hired. He was hired to finish as high in the league, possibly getting European football and perhaps some silverware. School Report: a B-minus.

I agree on the "B-" mark, the Redknapp ruins Portsmouth argument is a bit thin though.
It's part of the job description for Managers to push for transfer money (well, at most clubs, ahem) it's the boards job to say no.

If we do a Rangers will you blame Moyes for having the 3rd highest salary in the league? They all get away with what they can - mercenary scumbags with no real interest in the club the lot of them.

Hate to break this to you but it was Levy who brought in Van der Varrt. It's a well known fact (because Harry told us so at the time) that he hadn't even inquired abut the Dutchman. A transfer from Real Madrid on deadline day fell through leaving VDV's desperate agents hawking him around Europe for a cut-price fee (roughly half price). Spurs were one of the few clubs around with 8 million quid in their arse pockets.

Spurs had gone very close to Champions League BEFORE Redknap got there, but for a dodgy lunch before a game at West Ham they may well have done it... Sure Redknap eventually got into the CL (with the side he`d inherited) but you`re falling for his shifty cockney double talk when you refer to "near relegation". It`s true, Ramos had struggled to to make himself understood, but make no mistake this was a quality team Redknap was inheriting, the "near relegation" you refer was nothing more than the sort of bad start we`ve been making for years. Given their quality, recovery was virtually inevitable.

I spoke about Redknap fucking up multi million pound strikers last season, and was shouted down, but ask yourself what Pavlyuchenko and Defoe were doing at the end of the season (were they on their jollies with with Darren Bent?)

Meanwhile Moyes didn't look back once he found somebody mug enough to take Saha off his hands, Jelavic ran Riot and the guy who doesn't count was getting himself one of the best goal-per-game time records in the country.

The team Redknap inherited should have challenged for the title but, when they needed quality to give them the final push, Redknap turned to Saha.

One of these managers is about to be offered 4m quid a year and the other one is doing a very good impression of Yosser Hughes.

Go figure.

However, the completely un-spun stats indicate that Moyes has guided the club to 8 top eight finishes in ten years, has flirted with relegation a whopping ONCE, and that outside of the big-spending managers, there actually aren't ANY 'monkeys.' who have been as reliable in delivering the consistent league returns that he has over the same period, and who can therefore hold a candle to him.

No manager, operating on similar, or exact conditions, has plucked a team that spent nine of the preceding ten years in the bottom half of the Premier League, only to turn it into a regular top-ten outfit - for such a period.

( No opinion, no spin, just simple facts (so beloved of the Moyes acolytes, yawn, etc...)

Moyes's standard fare is top-eight, NOT surviving the drop.

In anticipation of the Stevie Wonder-esque "money isn't everything," line of rebuttal, I ask this simple question:

Where did Man.City's success come from..?

Highly-cerebral tactical nuance?

Middle-Eastern petro-Dollars?

Or Shaun Goater & Nicky Summerbee?

Not sure what my point was and I cant grasp yours? I previously described Ossie and Billy as:
versatile midfielder players who can play all across and off the striker. Theres a big difference to playing as a winger and being a versatile, adaptable midfielder who can play wide mid, keep you organised, compact, cohesive and bring some width to the play.

You keep hammering on with this BULLSHIT about Moyes playing them as wingers. My point......... if you can possibly let this sink through that granite thick skull......................is......................... they never have been.

My point is that they are midfielders without defined positions who can play wide mid, can effectively bring width to the play and have been used in that role. And I have given you examples of players in the past and present, from this club and others who could be considered central players, or thought of themselves as central players and wanted to play there, but played their best football wide and can also play central with varying degrees of success.

As I have named previously on this thread………… Sheedy, Trevor Steven, Richardson, Mark Ward was another, Arteta, Pienaar, Joe Cole, Ray Parlour, Beckham(who had neither the pace or ability to beat a man that you say is necessary to play wide but was massively effective due to his energy, work ethic, range of passing and crossing ability), Nasri(an attacking mid with no defined position), Park, Hleb, Rosicky, Gerrard was Liverpools best central, right and left player. Oh yeah and Milner played central for Villa and has played right and left for Newcastle and City, and theres a fella who plays narrow left for Spurs called Luka Modric who aint bad. Whats his position?

All of these players have played wide, but would not or have not have been played as “wingers”. They play in wide midfield positions and there is nothing wrong with doing this. Have all their managers been playing them out of position? Or is it just Moyes and his neurotic needs?

Theres nothing essentially wrong with playing the type of footballers Ossie and Billy are left or right mid. Its nothing new, loads of managers have done it with with similar types of players for .....DECADES. Billy actually played in the old left half kinda position at home against Villa, he was still ineffective. He was just a shit signing!!

Ossie plays left mid nicely for me and filled Pienaars absence quite well. Not as well as him though, because he’s an inferior footballer. Ossie has played right well on many occasions. However, played left, right, central or off the striker Ossie goes missing in the big games against quality opposition. Incidentally, who else would you have been playing, right side, in the FA Cup Final? One you seem to suggest we lost("game lost") because Ossie played there? A colossal over-simplification.

We rarely play with wingers as we have rarely signed that type of player in 10 years. We dont set up to play that way. Still with me? Are YOU getting that yet? Try watching.

For SEASONS now we have played with one of the best overlapping full backs in Europe. When anyone has played there, Arteta, Ossie, Billy, or Pienaar does(whats his “position”?), they play it narrow as Baines provides the width overlapping. Have you noticed that yet? The only player I have seen play it with genuine width, left or right was Drenthe as he is a natural “wide” player. And it also seemed to hinder Baines overlapping. However Drenthe is an ill disciplined, selfish player who doesn’t fit into the “team ethic” I referred to above.

Donovan was, the great thing about Donovan is he does his work, he is an ultimate team player, rarely gives it away, who does his jobs defensively, provides an outlet and genuine cutting edge in a conventional wide mid role and can also play attacking wide right in a 4-3-3. Quality player. The perfect wide midfield/attacking player and one Moyes was desperate to sign, despite his “hard on for utility players”.

Moyes hasn't been playing players like Billy or Ossie(and therefore by implication Pienaar, Arteta or even Steven Davis aaaaaagh) out of position. You however believe so, having an oversimplified view of what midfield play is about.

Next time you see a pre match intro to a match, watch the commentary carefully and when they show the formation see if you EVER hear a winger described as playing in a versatile position or if they say on the wing?

Hope
Garbutt
Green
Lundstrum
Barkley
Gethin Jones

All coming through

Plus Rodwell is still young.

So I don't agree with Barry's comments about 10 wasted years. A good youth system takes years to bear its fruit. What we need is the board to find some money to give to the manager. Not holding my breath though.

I accept your point about Levy but it's like the rumour Moyes wouldn't have got Jelavic without Weir's insistence, at the end of the day the manager has to agree.

Redknapp is a fair answer to the eternal caveat filled question about " who has done better etc etc etc?". He might not have the saintly halo attributed to Moyes but if you ignore all that guff he actually won something with an undisputed lesser club - Portsmouth .

But being openminded is not the preserve of the Moyes gang.

I point out no-one other than Ferguson and Wenger have had 10 yrs rendering said question idiotic (and by god it's not the first time I've said it) and a couple of posts later you get KEVIN HUDSON doing his Pavlovian dog response barking up that same decrepid tree AGAIN.

It's like there's a mental institution somewhere whacking electricity into their vacant heads chanting:

"YOU MUST NOT CRITICISE MOYES"
"YOU MUST NOT CRITICISE MOYES"
"YOU MUST NOT CRITICISE MOYES"

You stated that Moyes's football is "standard relegation avoidance fare."

The easily-checkable (or known!) evidence indicates that he has in fact delivered a consistent minimum of 8th place eight times in a decade.

This league record, admired by all of his peers, places him as our best manager in a generation, with a win-ratio bettered by only three other managers in our entire history.

Nobody has said that he is either perfect, or immune to scrutiny & critique.

I'm more than happy to read criticism of him, except when bare-faced lies masquerade as intelligent discussion.

(If the facts are inconvenient to your statement, then by all means feel free to ignore them and resort to shouty capitals.)

I'm glad you've backed off the nonsense 10 yr question and just resorted to your opinion of how great he is - that's fine - I don't agree.

But the glaringly obvious points to you worshipping the glory of "8th" is you neither get into europe OR, and this is the crucial thing, you don't win anything.

If he was sneaking cups every now and again or even starting seasons properly or even developing youth at some sort of rate or even playing a brand of football to warm the cockles I might join your adoration.

He doesn't, the only thing he does is avoid relegation

Add in Moyes saying 40 points is his target, the nominally accepted relegation breaker and I have to ask.

How do those stats stack up?

David Moyes has indeed avoided relegation; By finishing 11th & 8th once, 7th three times, 6th once, 5th twice... and 4th once.

(Technically, you're correct. Certifiable, but correct).

A rational observer would confidently state that we avoided a genuine threat of relegation in those Horne & Farrelly games during the nineties, and that Moyes rescued Walter Smith's rapidly sinking ship in 2002.

However, your deluded position is incompatible with the reality of the subsequent decade.

Contrary to what you think, my "nonsense 10-year question," still stands, (nb: I haven't dispensed with it just because I didn't repeat it..). Particularly when you stack it against Harry Redknapp's FA Cup success with Pompey.

As I'm sure you'll recall, Portsmouth won five of their six FA Cup games 1-0, defeating such luminaries as Ipswich, Preston, WBA, Cardiff, Man Utd (via a Sully Muntari penalty), and they defeated Plymouth 2-1.

Redknapp then inherited a fantastic squad & splashed a shed-load of cash on more world-class talent, whist Moyes saw key assets leave, and replaced them with cheaper players.

(nb: When Spurs signed Adebayor, we signed Stracqualursi).

In his 1st or 2nd season, Moyes finished 17th with less than 40 pts, that is when most managers would have been sacked and that's why there is no one to compare Moyes with.

The managers above us have spent money which we haven't had, the managers around and below us don't get given time which Moyes has certainly had.

I'm glad you accept that when you cut through the saint Moyes stuff and get down to the nitty gritty - he avoids relegation - thats it.

The next step is to stop continually fretting over what happened more than a decade ago. In the great history of this club relegation is not a major issue - look it up - our historic yardstick is not to copy Charlton!

Revealing that you choose to hang onto the fallacious 10 yr question.

Finding comfort by ignoring reality is interesting but kills your credibility, however I imagine in your world - who cares?

(I'd refrain from the terms rational and certifiable from now on you mad impestuous fool you)

Only a frankly warped (or "impestuous..??!!") mind would regard positions 4-8 in the Premier League as mere relegation avoidance.

I noticed you omitted 17th in your little hissy fit doubtless Paul Davids post about getting the boot elsewhere hit home - grow up or shut up.

And please don't quote Portsmouth guys...I mean it's just stupid. Harry went there and overspent...and now the club is dieing, and will probaly shut down within the year. Is that the price you want us to pay for one cup? because I'm sure we could buy the winger we need, Pienarr, the other striker we need, the right back, and a couple of back up players, and have a great season next year, maybe even win a cup. But then we'd be royally fucked.

We are holding out for investment, that's it. There's no prospect of advancement, because everyone above is outspending us, and some of those below us (i.e fucking QPR). If we get a buyer, and Moyes gets 20-30mil to spend a season, and gets up 7th/8th, then he would rightly be sacked. But at the moment, considering sacking a manager who does consistently well with very limited means would be idiocy.

(I bet your dad's bigger than my dad. etc..)

Now your case rests with the 2003-04 season. It seems you trawled back through the archives, and then thought "Aha! I'll remind him about Moyes's ONE dodgy season...I've got him!!"

(You do remember we finished 6 points clear of 18th place, relegated Leicester City that year, don't you?)

But since cold-hard facts shouldn't be spun, you can have it..

...Providing you acknowledge the following EIGHT seasons in return.

(For the record, I didn't think Paul David's post even warranted a reply. There are countless managers who have had one bad season, finished 17th, but kept their job..).

My beef is "8th" doesn't begin to tell the whole story. The football overall is poor, it's killed us in the really big games leaving us always on the back foot, carrying no threat and absolutely shagged out. But you are bang on about expectation. Not winning cups or having regular European football is fine as long as we avoid relegation. Dressing it up as anything other ignores Moyes's own comments about 40 points.

You only have to listen to the blatherings of Kenwright to find the source, and therein lies the real problem, the collusion between him and Moyes.

Moyes looks after Kenwright and Kenwright looks after himself and his pals. We fans don't figure – but they've got away with it all these years... it's only when the "R"-word figures, the natives get restless – and by god don't they know it.

Not for me, it's shite.

You concede the sum total of Moyes average of "8th" IS avoiding relegation, not that it could be argued otherwise.

You then admit you will persist with the erroneous Moyes comparison question - WHO exactly would fit into your list?

Your hissy fit when exposed shows you as the child you clearly are, amusing in a tumbling clown sort of way - but credible?

No, you're a waste of time.

When I "conceded," that our 4th/ 5th / 6th/ 7th & 8th place finishes 'avoided relegation,' was this too subtle for you?

...AND you took it literally..?

By your logic, Newcastle, Spurs & Chelsea also avoided relegation last year too.

Therefore, I won't lose any sleep knowing YOU think my credentials or credibility are questionable.

(Diagrams available upon request).

And please don't refer to the manager's comments as somehow suggesting we have no expectations... it's just naive. Firstly, you are picking certain comments Moyes has made, and ignoring more positive ones. Second, surely you realise that a manager's public comments do not signify private statements or beliefs? Or did you actually believe Mancini when he said Man City couldn't win the title?

BTW, Moyes made these comments last month:

'A club like Everton need European football. It would be a dream to get back into the Champions League but if it was the Europa League we’d take it.'

Doesn't sound like 40 points is his target to me.

But, far more importantly than what he says, is what he does. It's how he has the team playing.

The team, under his guidance and direction, play as if they are fending off the threat of relegation. They don't start playing like a top eight side — that believes it's a top eight side — until those 40 points are in the bag.

Over the last few summers, we've had to deal with constant transfer speculation, no incoming players (and thus no replacements for our ageing players), and the loss of key personnel. I mean did anyone really expect us to start last season well? Our only genuine creative threat, aside from the underperforming Bily, was Osman. Our striking options were abysmal, and to be honest, Fellaini aside, our midfield looked one of the worst in the division. We improved because of Donovan, Pienaar and Jelavic (and to a lesser extent, Gibson), not when we reached the 40 point mark. If we get in Pienaar, as well as a couple of loan players, without losing anyone, then I expect we will play better football pre-January.

And I still can't credit the 40-point crap. A lot of managers do it, presumably as a way of taking pressure of the squad. That's why Mancini did it with the title, that's why football managers generally play down expectation, and that's why it's a facet of other sports. I don't believe for a moment Moyes is happy with a 40-point target; I think he is targetting a European Cup place, and a cup run, every season.

Also, thank fuck Yobo's finally gone (or so it appears).

Granted, he hasn't the luxury of a wealth of talent and adequate cover in all positions But some of the worst Everton "statistics" in over 120 years of top-flight football have occurred during Moyes's tenure. (I can't speak about what I haven't seen in years gone by but last season up until Christmas was absolutely turgid, mind-numbing stuff.)

Again, trying to be fair, 10 years allows a good length of time to accumulate new lows as well as highs. I agree with him that we don't need 100s of millions - just enough to improve in quality and depth each year to reduce the pressures on an aging squad.

We CAN do better, just with the squad we now have (plus Pienaar), keeping Baines and Fellaini.

It's why I don't take notice of a stat only argument, football is a fluid uncertain sport where the weak can topple the mighty my fundamental criticism of Moyes is the majority of his tenure has been bereft of such moments.

His caution and risk avoidance is a survival kit but you just know if we have a young talent like Rooney, Rodwell, Barkley or Coleman a gamebreaker like the Yak or Drenthe a technical player like Bily it's gonna end in tears.

The reasons why will be legion, but in the meantime Phil Neville, Hibbo, and Osman will continue (no disrespect to those lads they're just examples of Moyes mindset)

The other symptoms are the paucity and pain of the derbies and cup competitions, I don't think it's good enough and furthermore don't feel 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th or whever the cutoff point for sainthood is these days justifies it. I fully understand half way through each season fans saying "christ can't wait for this to be over?"

Once you look beyond "8th" or whatever qualifies as more than avoiding relegation you have to ask is there room for improvement despite all the known caveats.

I think yes and have done so for much of Moyes reign.

And seriously, what are you talking about with gamebreakers/youth players...Drenthe has one of the worse attitudes in the game..he has caused serious unrest at the last three clubs he has been at, and upset numerous managers. How is Drenthe's acriminous departure Moyes' fault? And Coleman...which Coleman do you watch? I'd love to know, because to me he looks like an average player that we picked up a for a few hundred thousand. Barkley is not ready for Prem football yet..It's fantastic how the Rooney effect alters opinion...and I dont see how Moyes has held back Rodwell. Billy, was a shame, but he didnt have the attitude. Every high profile Russian player who has come here, as faded with time, and Arshavin, Zhirkov and Pavluchenko are prime examples of that. Also, I think Moyes has managed some other talented players pretty well..we brought both Arteta and Pienarr for minimal amounts, and developed them superbly until money and our club's station ultimately costs us.

Of course there are two sides to every story, and you see one thing, and I see the other. But I'm yet to read on these forums a good reason why Moyes should be removed as manager of Everton FC, but I have read a few good reasons why he should remain.

But, as a further example, if Moyes averages 8th but he gets top 6 (or better) wages(!!!!), is he a failure?? If the club wages are the gauge of expected league placing and above or below is greeted as success or failure, surely his wage must reflect same; ergo, he should be replaced.

This is one of the problems of stats in isolation – they don't tell the whole story.

The Rooney and others situation is an illustration of my view of Moyes, to me the reasons of why they didn't/aren't working out are incidental, we could have done with those players in top form and it hasn't happened.

Harsh? Of course... but this is why he gets £3 million, likely rising to £4 million a year.

Yes there are 2 sides to every argument; my beef is people don't like hearing the other side of "8th".

Cups.

Derbies.

Falling attendances.

I personally just want to hear no comment from Phil Neville before the derby, and Moyes we aim for some silverware and a top 6 finish.

I think blaming falling attendance on Moyes is bizzare...apart from being completely restricted with respect to transfers over the past three years, we've also been in one of the worse recessions in recent history. And for fuck sake, the derbies again? derbies are one game! Yes, they mean more to us, but they are one game! We finished ABOVE Liverpool last year. Let them cling onto their derby wins as the losers...

But whatever, we clearly have opposing views, and there's little chance of reconciling them. Maybe we will win a trophy next year and then we can all be happy? ffzingers crossed.