Time to Cash in on Johnny?

I think that when Jags and Distin are fit that they're Moyes's preferred combination. Notwithstanding the fact that Distin is pushing on, this won't sit well with Heitinga.

I don't believe that Moyes trusts any young player at CB, as highlighted by dropping Duffy for the Chelsea game, so I don't see him taking over from Distin. I think that if Moyes gets a cheap alternative, and if the right bid comes in (circa £5-£6m), then he'll let him go – and rightly so in my opinion.

I think Heitinga is superior to Jags in every department, and if we were to consider selling one of the two, it would have to be Jags for me.

That's not a fact, it's your opinion. And mine is that we should be keeping Heitinga and trying to sell the older, more error prone and infinitely less comfortable on the ball Jagielka, whose value is only going to decrease further, considering he relies on his pace to get himself out of trouble and is not getting any quicker with age.

Heitinga is the "footballer" of the posse – him, Baines, and Pienaar create; for that reason, I'd make Jonny first-choice centre-back.

Which might be why the transfer rumours started, because he's the most valuable!

Heitinga is our best defender and one of the most vocal players we have on the pitch. He was also easily our best defender for most of last season and people want him moved on for less than we payed for him!

This piece is quite simply insane.

I would be very interested to see how much a 28yr old English international centre half with 80 caps would be going for.

However, with this it's 2 years and counting and we need to make a decision, fast. Are we opening talks? Has anything been mentioned? His value is going to drop like a stone and the ball is in his court for a Bosman or tasty wages due to a reduced fee. That could also be another reason why Heitinga is keeping his mouth shut. This is going to be his last chance for a big, 4/5 year, long term deal.

Its a problem the club don't seem to have gotten their head around. If you open talks now with 2 years on the deal and make no headway it can drag on and on as no-one really does much business in the Jan window. Player is "keeping his options open", playing well if he has any sense(Alonso for example), and if the player in question is a good player, erm...... Pienaar, you are happy to keep them as well so the issue runs till the end of the season, by which point a 10 million player is a 4/5 million player at best.

I don't want Heitinga to go, we looked the tightest we have been since the height of the Jags/Lescott partnership. But we cannot do ourselves out of millions of pounds, again. We have managed to mis-handle the Pienaar, Gosling and Yak situations lately, costing the club millions of pounds

We have an England squad cover player in the Jag, he is also club captain and despite the form pre injury is a good player, people seem to have forgotten that. We are ok there but we have to make a decision. Distin has 2 seasons high class football in him imo,. At the risk of being a bit flippant, largely Moyes has shown he knows a centre half when he sees one so, I would trust him to get the signings right, but we need to sort this. I'm not holding my breath. Heitinga will be happy to run his deal down imo.

Plus, Moyes hasn't signed yet so, would you?

Without any shadow of a doubt JH is our best central defender, by a country mile. What rubbish; he is not an established player (didn't you count off the games he has played over the last three years?). No-one in their right mind, on the basis of last season, should put Jags ahead of JH. There's a chance we might get more for Jags; sell him if needs be, he would not be missed too much (a shame, by the way).

So, the poster prefers Jags who has not been an established player for some time now (injuries and otherwise) over JH who, in his view, is not an established player. Pure tosh. from the first word to the last. And why midfield? JH has shown us and Moyes where he ought to play.

Sell JH? Fuck me, we need to build around him and a few others. 28? That's pretty young you know for a central defender and his best years may be yet to come.

Don't get me started on passing and distribution, reading the game or being out of position, giving the ball away too easily and hoofing it up the pitch in the hope that our one forward might get to it before the three opposing defenders around him.

As James Stewart said it in black and white: 'This piece is quite simply insane'.

On the other hand, IF he makes it clear that he wants out and IF the price is right, we're better off cashing in sooner rather than later, if only to avoid another protracted Lescott-style debacle.

Am only just getting over the loss of Cahill, Even if those saying it was probably the best time are right; will bloody miss him.

If we did cash-in on him, most of the money would disappear to the the banks.

To replace him would probably cost more than what we get anyway.

Knowing the way things happen at Everton, as soon as we've ofloaded Yobo, Jags or Distin will get a serious injury

Fuck that!

There always remains with me the feeling that the guy is a little bit phoney. A player who plays the hard man but doesn't seem that tough, a great tackler but one who bottles it occasionally, a good header of the ball who can sometimes be easily outjumped, a person who rallies the troops but isn't necessarily 100% committed to the cause.

I may be wrong, it's just an impression that I'm left with. I can't really justify it with hard facts, but the impression remains lodged in my brain.

With that in the back of my mind, I might not be as reluctant to sell as some of you - but only if Duffy is ready to step up to the mark, or someone else is already lined up as a replacement.

Selling Cahill was the right thing to do. We must have made some headroom on the wages as well. Surely we can get pienaar and a couple of good quality loans to beef up the squad. Benyoun would be a decent loan move as would lukaku.

I don't think Heitinga plays the position as a hard man at all, its a myth. He's a reader. I feel he plays it very intelligently and makes us tighter with his positional play which is excellent.

Purely out of interest Ray do you think either the Jag or Distin is better?

They are all pretty different players, I suppose it comes down to what you prefer. I generally like a centre half to be quick, out of a partnership I think you definitely need one that is quick which I was never too keen on the Weir/Stubbs partnership despite them being good players in their own right. I like the options having some pace at the back gives you.

However, I do think Heitinga's positional play, anticipation and reading improved us greatly when we were looking leaky last season. Gibson helped this as well with his steady holding play as well.

Money is tight at this club so you neveer know what Moyes will have to do, but I think we have gotten rid of enough players in two pre-seasons in a row. How can we continue as a top club if we release or sell all our back-up first team players? We now are going into the first team to find money to spend.

Yakubu, Vaughan, Arteta, Beckford, Pienaar, and Cahill have gone only these last two years. We are wiped out, our squad is paper thin all over and what are we left with?

I really fear for the future, we need to get back into Europe and turn this ugly trend around. If we had been in Europe, our squad would not be this thin, but because Moyes has failled in getting us there for the last 3 seasons or so we are now feeling the heat. Our best players are in great danger of being sold, not because they are really wanted but because we have to find money from somewhere.

To sum it up, Moyes keeps his team like we are still in Europe, spending like it too. The selling of Cahill was Step 1 in cutting back on wages; next in line will be Neville and Jagielka.

I think that Moyes is going to jump ship if he does not make Europe this year, because he can not deal with all the players leaving each season like this.

However, it's not always as clear cut as that. Heitinga's distribtion is easily the best of all three, so against a team where it's important to build from the back, he's the best option.

I wouldn't sell Heitinga now either - the squad's too threadbare.

I just fail to totally subscribe to this urban myth that's developing around Johnny currently.

I simply am not totally convinced by him. I don't think the World Cup did him any favours either.

For me centre half is all about combination play and the respective styles of the players. For example, Rio Ferdinand, a player who I feel its possible you may not have rated(?) needed to play alongside a Vidic, Sol Campbell, Terry type player to make that partnership work. The physical, ball attacking player complimenting the reading, pacier, sweeping type. Terry and Carvalho was another fantastic partnership. The Rat and Dave Watson.

You have rightly nailed Distins best qualities, he is so strong, physical when he needs and is also great on the turn and can step on the gas, giving us that pace I referred to earlier and the option to defender little higher up if needed. Great professional, very consistent. Due to that style he may well be first choice out of all 3, especially with the pace he gives us.

I feel that Heitinga's more reading and positional style compliments him very well. They look like a real partnership. Plus, and this comes down to the intangibles of partnerships, it just looks seems Hetinga is more of a talker and organiser, more of a personality. It looks to me like he might be very good to play alongside. I think their styles are very well matched and we looked the tightest we had been since Lescotts departure. Since the back end of the Donovan first loan season,on the run in we looked leaky and I hadn't been convinced by our defending for a couple of seasons.

The Jag and Distin was the partnership for the majority of this. There seems to be a bit of a downer on the Jag lately, which is unfair, he's a tremendous centre half. Great on the recovery, decent reader, good on crosses, strong brave and committed, just a very good all round centre half. We should not be considering getting shut even if he is bench warming, not with Distins age, we are going to need the Jag, we DO need the Jag.

But just as his partnership with Lescott was top draw, one of the best in the prem and hasnt looked out of place in international football when tried, the one with Distin hasnt convinced me,. Strangely, I feel Jags and Heitinga would be great together, although we haven't seen enough of that to judge.

Be very interesting to see what Moyes does. Personally I think there is no need to go changing. We have looked settled, organised, extremely tight and it is down to Jags to get in and unseat one of them when injury or loss of form strikes. However he is club captain and Moyes does love him.

But on Heitinga Ray, there is no urban myth, its just called being a good player. I think its possible his style doesn't float your boat compared to the qualities you indicated you like in a centre half. You don't get 80 caps for the Dutch if your a phony, it just doesn't happen. All players have bad tournaments and the Dutch were ropey all over and he was excellent in the last world cup. Since he's been playing regularly he has been outstanding and we look back to being tight again, its not by accident.

No thanks!

I feel the signing of Jelavic will consolidate our position rather than see us move up the table.

I also suspect Distin will move on next summer so to sell our youngest senior centre half now would be daft.

We keep the key players (which looks like happening), can't see why we don't pick up where we left off.

Or did you find unnerving agreeing with anything coming from me?

We have him now from the jump. Why can't we move up the Table?

Because we have Jelavic and nobody else, who can be relied upon to chip in with more than a few goals? All the teams above us have 1 or 2 goalscores as well as midfielders capable of scoring.

As for his comparison to Jags.. Don't be silly.
Could Jags get in the Dutch side?.. No. In the Dutch squad?.. No
Could Jonny get in the English squad?.. Yes. Would he be in the side?.. Yes.
Would Jonny be England's best player?.. Probably

Silly silly silly (I just remembered that it's either been said before or that's what I've been thinking the whole way through the thread. .. Silly

I rate Heitinga, highly, I said he is not an establsihed first team player. I probably should have been more clear in saying when all our players are fit he isn't a first team player.

But when Moyes has everyone available, where does he put Johnny? On the bench. And seeing as we're not in the position to buy players without having to sell, he seems the most ideal to go. I'm not saying its great, but that just seems to be the situation.

Yessar, I think you and I are trying to make the same point. A player I rate but one that I don't think Moyes does and we can't afford a benchwarmer with a such a high value.

We don't have any leaders in midfield, though i'll be interested to see if Gibson becomes our next Peter Reid. Good teams generally have two or three leaders usually through the middle. Johny is a top player and has a good football brain. We need strong personalities and Johnny is the only player of class we have who also has this broader potential. Sell any of our other centre halves before him.

If we have to sell players, I'd rather it be Heitinga than Fellaini or Baines. Again, Heitinga is a great player, and has invaluable assets, thats mentioned in the piece. But when everyone's available at selection, he usually ends up on the pine.

The question was asked whether it was time to cash in on Johnny, and understandably not everyone is going to agree.

All of a sudden when Johnny came in Distin looked a far better player and so to with Jags when he partnered Johnny.

For me Johnny/Jags is the starting pair. 3 key issues for me with Distin: age, Progressing Duffy before he hightails it through not getting game time and most Importantly Distin is the most one footed player I have seen and it has been a liability on more than one occasion.

Johnny is one of the best footballers at the club and played much better than Jags did all season. If if have to sell someone, I hope it's not him. Financially we are in a right old mess but I bet everyone on the forum would take £15M for Rodwell if a club came in tomorrow.

And please don't expect the "Sky Money" that everyone is waiting for to be spent on any player. It will go straight to the bank to keep us afloat.

We do not resort to hoofball with him on the pitch and that for me is a major plus.

Let Yobo go and lets be done with it.

I think you're expecting too much from Jelavic. If he kept up the same scoring rate next season, he will end up with 27 league goals, which is something very few players can achieve.

I would not be surprised if he broke the 20 goal barrier but 15-20 goals is more realistic. Plus you have to remember he joined us just as the team was approaching great form (partly down to him) but there will be times next season when the team is off form and creating nothing. The vast majority of Jelavic's goals come from one touch which shows he is totally reliant on supply.

Naismith is an unknown quantity in the Premier League but I'm not expecting a lot of goals from him; after that, our biggest goal threat is our left back.

As a squad, we cannot compete with the top 6's fire power (except possibly Newcastle) but the signing of Jelavic has give us a bit more breathing space from the teams looking to catch up with us.

The thing is, we have had a great defense all along. Pienaar's back, Fella's moved forward, and Jelavic doesn't appear to care where he is or when; he's scoring.

This all must add up to EFC moving up the Table. You don't think so? Fine. I do think so. Let's see what happens.

It pains me to say so, but Paul is right. We can't expect Jelavic to get more than 15-20 goals.

We also don't have enough depth to make it over 38 games. Our first 11 might be Top 4 to 6. We have the nucleus of a very, very good team. But there will be injuries, fixture congestion, et al. And we simply don't have the depth to climb up.

Bear in mind I hope with all my heart I am wrong.

I think too many years of being a Yankee fan has clouded your vision - Everton can't afford to add depth with quality.

Our best bet is to pull a Pittsburgh Pirates - assuming they stay near the top.

And that American reference I'm sure that will spell the end of this thread - they always seem to.

OT - in no way should we sell Heitinga. And I agree with Andy Crooks - I think Duffy is an excellent prospect and could pair with Heitinga in the future.

If we sell anyone, sell Jags and push Duffy up the pecking order.

P.S. Can't agree with 15-20 goals for Jela. This guy is a straight-up fucking predator. You think only 15 goals is a possibility?

All that will stop him getting the 20 is if the rest of the division stop us getting the ball to him in the box; how well the rest can do that, and how his team-mates play to overcome it, will be the key, I think.

As for Jelavic, I think he'll get 20+ this season. I can also see Naismith chipping in with a few and Pienaar looked more of a goal threat when he came back from Spurs.

I Hung My Head.
Ain't You Ashamed?
he's an All Around Cowboy.
he's not Born To Lose

(answers on a postcard please…)

we didn't 'sell' Arteta. He wasn't up for sale. At the last possible moment, for reasons of his own, he walked into Moyes' office (or whatever) and said he wanted to leave us in the shit - and take a pay cut to do so.

Rooney and Lescott weren't for sale. They went 'to win something' - ie doubling their pay. Yakubu, Vaughan and Beckford were all moved on for footballing reasons, not to pay off the overdraft.

Fellaini, Baines and Heitinga are automatic first choices for Moyes, and unless they're offered personal terms they can't refuse, they're staying.

I don't know how a complex business like EFC operates. I know that we haven't got a sugar daddy as CFC and MCFC have - these people are not simply 'investors'. So 'the bank' has to play a crucial role in our operations. We are in debt, just as anyone with a mortgage is. But this is 'good debt', it gets you where you want to be - in your own home, or still in business, and all is well so long as you can make the repayments.

Through no fault of our own, millions of pounds are paid to us, to our 'bank account'. Unless we have a separate account called 'transfer fund', I guess we reduce the size of our debt - and the size of the repayments - by banking the incoming. Where else does the money go?

When we need, say, £5mil for a Croatian striker from Rangers, where does it come from? Not from under the mattress - unless Arry is involved - but from 'the bank'. All being well, we'll get what we need to bring Pienaar back, again with money from 'the bank'.

If the bank goes tits up, and there's a lot of that hovering about, we're all fucked, to use a bit of technical language.

I'd invite an accountant to tell me that I'm seriously wrong in this 'household' description of how the money works. The details and terminology would, of course, fill pages. But unless 'the bank' is telling us that we must be selling our assets or else - we're still in Prem business.

Unlike Rangers et al.