Olympics underlines fundamental problems with English football

Top post!

However, just wanted to congratulate you on an interesting, thoughtful and erudite post on "the best league in the world".

This is saved exclusively for footballers and is a quite nasty and patronising attempt to make it easy for ordinary folk to equate these massive salaries with their own and to resent footballers for it. The pay of footballers is no more obscene than for that of bankers or actors etc.

How much effort one puts in over another, that's evaluated on a case by case basis. I watched a lot of that GB team give their all yesterday, and many just lost their composure towards the end of that match. Also, many of these Olympians are very young, teenagers or very early 20s. They're full of youthful exuberance, much like professional footballers are when they first come up. As they get older and become more aware and a part of the business, that changes. And to be fair that is true in life. When we graduate college we're called idealists, we're full of optimism. Then as years go by reality starts to hit us. We can't change the world as easily as we though, politics in the work force take root, and we have to learn to play the game to some degree in order to be successful for ourselves or our families.

And it's not such a large number of footballers who are always getting in trouble. There are thousands of footballers in England and a few of them get in trouble every year. Percentage wise, that's probably a hell of a lot less than what occurs at your work. Of course, you'll never hear about your coworkers because the press don't follow each one of you and your family's every move, unless it's a major crime making the front pages. Every single thing a footballer does or says is scrutinized to the maximum, hence websites like this and hundreds of others, filled with all of us who visit daily to see who did or said what. Christ, there was a thread on here the other week that went on forever scrutinizing Moyes use of words when discussing Naismith's clearance and how far behind his knee recover was. Any websites devoted to your manager at work and the wording he used in the weekly Friday meeting?

Yes, they are paid a lot. And yes, the money has gotten out of hand. But that doesn't happen from the bottom up. It really comes down to two different economic/labor beliefs that are being heavily argued again in recent times. One group blames the "greedy" union workers for their excessive wages, not mentioning the fact that the Executives pay has grown exponentially larger while paying fewer taxes, and attempts to get others to fight the rich mans fight against the other workers.

I'm not saying the modern footballer is the same as a teacher's struggle for fair wages. I'm saying the argument is the same. All the attention is put on the players (workers) salary, and the intent is for you to be jealous and dislike that. But you never, ever hear about how much all the executives/owners of this business make. And when I say owner I'm not necessarily saying club owners, I'm talking about the people running the game itself. But also remember, it's not the player wages themselves that are so hard for clubs to handle. It's more the transfer fees and agent's fees that kill clubs.

Winning is not the aim, existence to protect their multi million pound position is.

Coaches from the cycling team of GB are articulate, scientific and open minded. Compare that to the thick headed cretins managing football teams they wouldn't get employment in the most menial jobs in the real world.

Too much "old boy network" not enough promotion through ability.

In their defence, however, they get away with it through equally thick headed fans excusing every dull decision.

There are a couple of good things IMHO about the telephone numbers earned by the players:

(a) they are largely working class and

(b) it is one of the few ways of [lawfully] earning mega-millions which is not reserved for the well-connected/public school brigade. In fact family influence plays no part - if you're crap you're crap, and no amount of words in the right ears will help you.

...Then step up the GB footballers. Beaten by a team of less talented players who wanted it more. I didn't watch it, I was watching the ones comitted to their cause on BBC1.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/01/sport-britain-elite-privilege-schools?cat=commentisfree&type=article

The fact that football is seen as the last sport of the working class probably explains much of the disenchantment around some of the prima-donna players we see today. Though I must say if we are talking about finances on a wider level (F.A vs Team GB), then there's certainly a case for more success in international football: not because it's deserved or some god-given right but because money has been chucked around 'Team Woy' to no avail.

I noticed that they are changing the junior football for next season and that is a step in the right direction, but I think we, as fans also need to start supporting the junior events as well. If we look at the German team so praised now at the last few major finals a core came through junior level together and invested in at that stage, South American countries have always had massive concentration on youth and you can see that with the strength of the Brazil squad at these olympics (will be a very similar team to that at Brazil 2014). Now South American clubs have been financially reliant on youth, to sell to European leagues and that is surely a reason but I believe they have always taken competitions such as the Olympics very seriously.

If we look at the England team, its problems have been endemic for years, it becomes a club and once you part of it, you pretty safe and it far too far removed from the U21 team and U18 team.

If we want better home nation teams (can't see a Team GB mens football team at the next olympics) and a better class of home nation player in the top divisions youth football needs overhauled, we need to take U21, U18 etc European and World cups more seriously both from a footballing side, but also from a fans point of view, the standard can be very good to watch, and the more interest and TV coverage and interest should hopefully push it on. Personally would love to see a European U21 club cup which pushes home talent.

Simplistically the stats seem to support the assertion that the privileged background of the majority of Olympians has played a significant part here. Money, access to fantastic facilities etc. Whereas football improvement and development has been hindered by the fact that most footballers are working class and therefore don't get access to good facilities etc. etc.

I have a thought, why doesn't the FA focus on bringing football to the middle and upper classes?

Looks like they can at least find the personal motivation and dedication required to succeed at the highest level.

Frankly I'm getting more and more disillusioned with our total inability to move forward in any way as far as coaching and playing the game is concerned. I'm fed up about hearing how others are more technically gifted and able to perform the basics and we can't.

How many hours do our professionals train? How much time does one need to learn how to trap a ball dead under pressure and move off the ball.

Maybe we are focused on the wrong demographic. Football (Soccer) is much more of a middle class game in the USA and look how they are constantly improving and progressing in the World game!

Just food for thought.

Also, you don't hear about the pay of most of the olympians because they don't make their money in the sport. Because people don't watch these sport, but for every four years. But rest assured they haggle and demand obscene wages from all the sponsorship and marketing deals they work out when the Olympics are over with. But again, people don't care about that so the media doesn't scrutinize it to the same degree. Also, it's not "your" club paying those wages, it's Wheaties, or BP, or BMW and on and on who are paying the athletes to advertise their product. They turn that gold medal into millions of dollars, then in most cases return to living the privileged lives they always have.

A good article here highlighting private school privilege and dominance in sports.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/01/sport-britain-elite-privilege-schools

Years of plucky loser saw serious initiatives via lottery funding and grants with the threat "up your game or lose the loot". As always accountability does the trick.

Kicking a ball is a simple pastime overcomplicated by fools, the best players still come from poor areas where they play on the street as in South America and Africa.

Good football coaching as in Holland, Germany and Spain nurtures skill rather than treats it with suspicion.

The Prem can afford to buy in skill and international competition means nothing unless you support Halifax, Brentford etc.so we'll just continue on till the telly money goes somewhere else.

Simply put, football has a much bigger draw for sports mad kids than any other sport in this country because of its popularity, exposure and the status afforded to its stars. As far as I am aware, there are no sports that actively exclude participants because they are from the wrong background (individual clubs may have membership policies) because every one wants to have the best players and be successful. The local rugby clubs would love to have the sport played in every school because they know that the fact that it isn't means that a lot of potential players will never try it, which is not to their benefit at all.

As far as I am aware, in the US and many other parts of the world, sport is often seen as a good way to move up in the world and helps social mobility.

It is the popularity of football (throughout the 'classes') that causes part of this debate. Because of the money that is drawn in to the sport (in particular, into the EPL and other European leagues) those that make it to the top are hugely rewarded. It is not about whether they deserve it (the wages are market led) but they are very lucky to be playing at a time when the rewards are so great and it is about whether they appreciate that fact and understand the influence they can exert on impressionable young minds.

I think a lot of footballers are overly maligned; I don't consider Wayne Rooney's ideas on fidelity to be particularly helpful but don't think his indiscretions stem from any particular arrogance. I have always found him to be adequately articulate at press conferences and don't think he comes across as stupid, except in his judgement of others which can be a common defect apparently unrelated to intellect. However, there are also obvious examples of footballers who really don't get it, and it is the difference between their actions / attitudes and those displayed by many of the Olympic athletes that disappoints many onlookers.

Elsewhere, individuals and organisations in other failed and failing sports ( olympics in particular) recognise they are rubbish and put all the bullshit behind them and with innovation, forward planning and determination turn things around. This has clearly manifested itself in the significant improvements and success achieved by the BritishOlympic team.

Who on this site hasn't been moved, inspired and proud of the achievements so far. Who gives a damn about their background, whether it be state, grammar or public school, whether they be English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or Immigrants?

The fact is we've turned things around by integrating a melting pot and delivered success on the world stage. Third in the medal table so far covering a whole cross section of sports!

Meanwhile, as far as football is concerned, we continue to labour under the massive misapprehension that we are the kings, that we have the best league in the world and therefore we will ultimately achieve our rightful place at the top!

I don't give a damn what background our footballers come from, rather they are allowed the chance to deliver the pride most of our country feel now in our OLympic athletes.

Where are these football saviours?

We have become results mad, whilst a cycling director can construct a 10-year programme to deliver GB to the top of the world, Premier League bosses can get 6 months. Imagine if football was like the US system were all players had to come up through their schools and colleges before then being drafted. This would be an equal way of dispersing the young talent and educating young footballers.

At the moment, all they know is football and money. We're collectively so desperate for results that we'll turn to a 17-year-old, proclaim him as our messiah after one cross-field ball against QPR, and then give him a massive contract worth millions. He may be good enough talent-wise but he's not ready for this; what do you expect him to do with that money? – especially as he's had limited to no education...

Is it any wonder why these footballers behave like they do? They can get away with anything because, if they're talented, then the need for results will always be greater than any moral guidelines. This need stems from the fans though; I mean, we can't even lose a preseason game or draw away in the Premier League without kicking off.

Fans are so trophy-hungry that clubs like Rangers and Portsmouth will gamble on their physical existence to try and satisfy this. The one's who don't like Everton are branded as lacking ambition by both the media and a section of their own supporters.

Wenger is slated for what he's doing at Arsenal but, when he has the best economic structure in the league and the best academy in the future, then no-one will be laughing and instead we'll all have wished we'd copied him. It is the lack of patience, fulled by the Champions League period of football media coverage, amongst the fans that produce the Terrys and Rooneys of this world.

It's the inability to rationally accept a 2-0 preseason loss at Blackpool that produces the exact system that we all hate. Come August, 99% of people on here (including me) will be shouting for Barkley to come on in a game that we've paid an extortionate ticket price for. None of us will be thinking about paying to watch a rowing or swimming regatta. We're part of the system, perhaps even the cause of it, and until we're fully consciously exploited by it, then it will not change.

I also think a lot of men in those circumstances would act with a certain bravado / cockiness even if the reality was they had personal misgivings they were keeping inside.

Maybe he thought it was a less serious level of cheating because it was a 'business transaction' and he probably thought some sort of escort agency client confidentiality would keep it secret (hence my statement on poor character judgement).

Overall, I wouldn't say that a 'kiss and tell' article is definitive proof of his arrogance unless you can prove that he didn't expect it to remain a secret and he hasn't shown genuine remorse to those he hurt.

I am not trying to defend his actions, just saying I have tet to be convinced that he is more arrogant or less intelligent than average.

Supporters have always wanted success for their team; sharing that feeling of achievement is part of the experience. They have also always been rather impatient for said success - we all hope that Everton will be the better team and win every time they play, even when we don't really expect it, and I don't believe our forebears were any different.

I don't think that anything supporters do - within the limits that society expects of them - leads directly (or inevitably) to poor behaviour by the players. It is simply a good example of the fact that money equates to power in our society, which also excessively fetes status / celebrity. This potent mix of money and status can potentially lead astray the young men (and their associates) who aquire them through their footballing ability. Please note, I am not suggesting that footballers are any more prone to corruption by these things than anybody else.

Maybe we shouldn't expect anything other than the odd 'rotten apple' as I am sure history has shown that there are always people who are fundamentally undeserving of the privileges that they have been granted, whilst at the same time others are exceeding expectations with scant reward or recognition.

Nothing will change unless we all decide to become very passionate followers of fencing instead. If that happens, Sky will just buy coverage of fencing, make us pay £45 a month to watch it and the fencers will all turn into what footballers are now.

Instead of wanting to correct things, we all cry out for more money to be put into our club so we can have more overpaid mercenaries playing for us. I'm guilty of it too, I've wanted a rich sheikh to buy us the world's top players so we can win things again. Unless we become a communist society, unfortunately it's the way it is.

Perhaps if successive govenments (and local government) hadnt adopted a policy of selling off school playing fields and muncipal areas, there would still be areas for kids to play sports.

You have made a valid point there, statistics published in the Commons Library show 203 pitches have been lost in England and Wales under Labour, which is bad enough, but under the previous Tory administration, as many as 5000 playing fields were sold off for development etc. mainly to private building companies. Where are children going to improve their skills if not at their school as part of their physical education? Little wonder that there are so many fat kids about.

One reason football is the "sport of the working classes" is the relatively low cost. As kids, all we needed was a Frido football and a bit of spare ground. Compare this with the equipment and facilities required for many other sports and it will come as no surprise that some sports are/were out of reach to the average family.

As a child, I was lucky in as much as the local education or council (not sure which) would provide a Free Pass to anyone who showed any sort of ability in swimming so we'd go to Woolton or Dovecot baths three or four times a week for nothing. Compare that with the cost of, say, rowing. You only need to see where the Olympic Rowing is taking place, Eton, to get an idea...

Of course there is one big reason why English footballers are paid more in wages... they earn more. Look at the revenue of Manchester United, or Madrid, or Chelsea or City... if the money didn't go to the players, ie, the agents who bring in the money through their ability and marketing potential, it would simply go to the owners.

Football clubs, whilst ruined somewhat by the influx of foreign owners who can run clubs without generating profit, are still prime money making machines. Athletes are in the limelight now... but how many of the audience on Saturday watched the Diamond League events? How many of us watched even one of them? But how many will tune in for the Premier League football matches on Sky? Or travel half the country to watch our club? Or watch MotD?

With respect to our achievements in national football... Why should it be so good? With respect to the Olympics, no European team has made the semi-final (because of the Euros). We have out-performed the World and European Champions, in spite of their decision to pick three superior senior players. We have been denied not only the likes of Rooney, Cole and Lampard, but significant youth talent because of injury problems or their participation in Euro 2012.

Imagine an Olympic team with Walker, Jones, Smalling, Oxlade and Wilshere in. We've also lost Bale, our most talented prospective player, through injury. In spite of that, we've performed admirably, and finished above a fantastic Uruguayan side.

I do not see our performance in the Olympic football as failure, and a massive goalkeeping error and penalty miss(es) aside, we would have been in a semi-final. How good would Mexico, Japan, Korea or Brazil had been if they had been denied half the participating Olympians?

And with respect to our national team... we have been dogged with some poor performances in big matches for sure. I think it has something to do with mentality, but also because we are simply not as good as other national teams. On paper, I'd say Spain, Brazil, Argentina and Germany are easily better than us. I would say that Holland, Portugal, Italy, Uruguay and France are either slightly better or at a similar level. With so many great sides, in my mind Semi-Finals is success.

We also suffer from the effects of the most competitive league in the world, and the subsequent resulting injuries and tiredness of our stars coming into major tournaments. Comparing Phelps or other athletes to football players is not the same, because they are completely different events. Multi-eventing is possible in some disciplines, but not in others.

The British Athletes have over-performed to a fantastic degree during these Olympics. Based on the size of our domain, our gold rate currently is fantastic. Hopefully it will encourage many of the young generation to get into athletics. (I ran to the local shop and back after watching Ennis... it's catching.)

But I don't understand why the successful performance of our athletes has to simultaneously evoke denunciation for our footballers. Rooney etc have dedicated their lives to football, and deserve to be Premier League players. They don’t deserve their wages… but that’s capitalism.

Directly opposite is a huge field owned by the council that is reserved for the primary school. There are three areas of grass within 100 metres that all have 'no ball games' signs up as they are all surrounded by housing whose occupants I suspect prefers not to have the noise & nuisance of games going on - fair enough as we used to make some of our neighbours lives a misery, particularly to older ones when we played footy in the street.

The nearest playing field is about half a mile away across an extremely busy, dangerous road with no marked crossing points.

There is nowhere for these little kids to learn to play sports unless we pay for organised activities once a week. I suspect it is the same elsewhere.

It is an awful shame that they cannot be let onto the school fields during the day - all it would take is the caretaker (or even a teacher) to be paid to open and lock up - what do they do all holidays anyway? That is the solution if we are to use the momentum caused by the Olympics - make our playing fields more accessible (they are there, but they are shut out of school hours), allow informal sports where we can learn what we are good at or otherwise and allows for hours of practice - or fun as we used to call it.

Brilliant - was going to respond along the same lines but you have done it much better than I would have.

I would only add that I find it VERY strange that there appears to exist an inverted snobbery, that sometimes sees people (often working class people) bitterly resent someone like Rooney making millions, but will cheer a team containing people like Zara Phillips, people who were born into privilege and wealth and have never had a day's hardship in their lives.

We don't need millions spent on facilities but aren't they already paying caretakers & teachers? Surely the caretaker has less to do during holidays (ours is nowhere to be seen) and is no doubt paid less because of that.

How about even organising local leagues that run over the summer? Football, running, rounders, cricket etc etc. Schools are empty - why shouldn't the facilities be used by their own kids?

Yes it will cost some money but we spend around £100 million a year funding our elite athletes.

Older kids find their own places to play - its the little ones that need encouraging.

When I was a kid we played 20 odd aside on a ground that we called the "oller" which was ground that had been bombed during the war.It was full of bumps, glass and bricks but that didnt stop us wanting to play and win.

Among our lads were John Bailey (EFC), Tony Evans (Birmingham and Cardiff) and a number of other lads including myself who played for LIverpool boys and had trials with League teams.

Look at the Brazilian and African kids nobody could say they had facilities.

No the real problem is playstations and Television that glorify bank robbers, Drug dealers and car jackers so that all the kids want a lifestyle without having to earn it.

Hmmm...interesting.

So Jim Buckfast...who left school at 14 and now has 6 kids – who's literacy extends to filling in a bookies docket – should be primarily responsible for digging his kids out of the gutter that successive governments have left him in..

You've an interesting take on social responsibility – and probably quite close to the divide and conquer policies of marginalisation that created Mr Buckfast in the first place.

Steve Barr, #955, got it right. The quality of football we play is dire. I do not contest that the entertainment of the Premier League is the best in the world. Almost every year the relegation scrap goes to the final day, and everyone knows what happened on the last day, and last minute, this year. But the quality of the football is nowhere near as good as some of our European rivals. Maybe better quality would lead to less entertainment, what would you prefer?

Steven Gerrard got all the plaudits from the English media for his performances in the European Championships. As good a player he may be, his (and his English colleague's) direct football doesn't come close to the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo etc. It's too predictable and impatient. Joe Cole, an immense footballing talent at a younger age who never really reached his full potential, has thrived in France when he looked like he was done with in England. Maybe even our own Leon Osman would have faired better abroard.

British teams have won Champions League's in recent history, but with an overwhelming presence of foreign talent. I don't think British players alone have the ability. All the time at grassroots football, semi-pro, all the way up to the top of English football players seem to think the best way is to get the ball into the box at the earliest opportunity, without recognising that a better chance may present itself with a bit of patience.

I'm not saying that the finance of the English game, or indeed other factors, doesn't contribute, but look at other big money leagues like La Liga and Serie A - their nations got to the final of Euro 2012 and Spain are reigning World Cup champions.

Reffering specifically to the actual way we exited the Olympics, as well as numerous other tournament exits, penalties is a completely different issue of psychology.

I am probably being quite cynical here, but I believe most sports peoples aims are to reach as high as they can up the ladder of their respective sports in order to reap the benefits that usually go with it.

I'm not sure it's fair to have a go at footballers because of what they earn in comparison to how they play, if tv companies are happy to throw money at them, they'll take it all day, wouldn't any of us?

I can see why we were one of the only European countries not to have a revolution a couple of hundred years ago! The British public accept being under the cosh too much!

I'm afraid nothing will change if people are quite happy for city bankers and the elite to siphon millions of pounds out of the country instead of investing in the people. The reason all of these Olympians sound jolly and decent is because they haven't the worries that that poor miserable drunken bloke has who watches football matches and lacks a decent education.

Alan, people are kept in their place so that they can empty the bins and clean the houses of the elite.

Before the selling of playing fields the sand pits got used for jumps alright but hardly ever the athletics sort.

Opps, Ciarán, letting yourself down a bit there, methinks.

It's autobiographical..

Ok its not quite the same in sport, but its not far off - football, rugby league are two of the few major sport where more working class lads excel. How many rowers, sailors, rugby union players, come from the working classes. The Guardian article gives us the simple facts. Even where sports are accessible its the richer classes with better facilties and cash who come good.

So whats the point? Im pleased to see ordinary lads doing well from sport. I just wish in football there wasn't a disproportionately high number of gobshites and self obsessed dimwits.

There are more simply more professional footballers around than most other sportsmen they are also under far more scrutiny than other sportsmen due to the extensive tv coverage they receive. I would not argue that their are a lot of knobhead footballers but perhaps the same is true of other sports the reality is we don't really see enough of them to pass a reasoned judgement.

You lot should have been around 100 years ago when there was no education for the "working" classes and people had to educate themselves in the University of life.

Life is what you make of it and making apologies and feeling sorry for yourselves will not change a thing.

I was lucky enough to get a decent education rubbing shoulders with these so called elite and I tell you what, I would not for one minute swap my Liverpool 3 upbringing for some of those deprived kids... yes, 'deprived' because they do not know what normal is. Send them for the cane or the strap and they were mortified.

From what I can see, most ToffeeWebbers have had a decent education so why create a class gap that is not there?

I consider myself to be as prvileged as anybody including David Cameron.

Yes, life may not be fair but it is unfair in one way or another for everybody, so enjoy what you have and let others wallow in their folly.

Someone mentioned that football is a closed shop. It certainly is by the looks of things...

Andy @877. Good point about the olympics and them not getting turned into a circus act by Beckham. For Beckham, it was an ego massage and another chance to promote brand Beckham.

By comparison I was thinking about one of the Irish female marathon runners who completed the race over the weekend. She had been in agony with a leg injury from mile two or three that she had brought into the Olympics. She decided to complete the race because this was the Olympics and she had put too much hard work in to not compete. It made me think.

The players are paid too much. Now that's not a new problem, but a problem now is the players are paid too much, too soon. I'm not blaming the players per se, as the agents have a lot to answer for, as do the club owners.

I think part of the problem now is that a player could be a teenager, talented no doubt, and he's already driving a Baby Bentley. In his own mind he's made it. Add the media obsession with celebrity, and trying to make paper fodder out of the players and their WAG of the week, you can see why football comes a poor second, and why some don't fulfill their promise.

I don't have a solution. The top end players will always go where the money is, but clubs these days will poach youth players, and for agents, they represent a good punt. The top agents are now in a position to spend money on these kids as "business development", and like us, they only need 1 Rooney-of-his-generation to get their payday. If an agent has a decent stable, he can take a punt on 10 top-rated youths, only needing 1 to make it big to justify it. The rest can be let go when they cease to make the money. Sad really.

Whilst I broadly agree with the basic sentiment of your post Chris, and have found myself in a similar position over the past week or so, there are a couple of key points that need to be made.

Footballers get paid millions because they generate billions. Olympians don't. Payment is not decided by some objective criteria based on who 'deserves' what. Economics is what it is, and many would argue its the money that ruins the men, not that we should expect more from them because of what they get paid.

Footballers compete against others being paid similar amounts, you can't expect both teams to win just because they get paid loads.

Finally, Team GB Football gave it their all, they were committed and played with passion. They suffered from being a hodge-podge team cobbled together at the last minute from whichever players seemed to fancy it. Most of the other teams in that tournament are carefully planned and play together for at least two years prior to the Olympic tournament. They also have decent, thoughtful coaches, not Stuart 'stick in the corners and chase it' Pearce. With all that in mind, I thought they did well to get out of a group where certainly Uruguay and possibly Senegal should have expected to do better than them.

I know the scope of your article was intended to include the England team as well, but I definitely haven't got time to get started on them.

"I can see why we were one of the only European countries not to have a revolution a couple of hundred years ago"

Oliver Cromwell (he who kicked the whole thing off) will be turning in his grave...

Alas, the question I ask myself on a regular basis is whether we (as Evertonians) have been duped all along, abandoned and alone in a hostile and unforgiving land.

I blame my great grandfather for instilling his son, who then in turn thought it noble to carry on the tradition, ad infinitum...

Poor kids can come good and you're dead right, a lot easier to get on now but still look at top professions still populated by middle and upper class and people with connections.

Back on topic one quality these athletes have over most footballers is CLASS.

Yes global appeal will drive sponsorship value, and to a lesser extent, merchandising. But a club like Wigan will still earn 70-80% of what we pull down from being in the Prem, even though we would argue we are the "bigger, more well known" club.

Unfortunately the financial doping that used to be buying up the best players, paying over-inflated salaries, now is arguably extending to commercial deals at some clubs where the ownership has some linkage. Eg: Man City being owned by ADUG, and their ownership of Etihad. Man Utd and Liverpool being owned by US Sports Portfolios able to leverage on that with deals like GM and Warrior.

There's nothing wrong with that under the rules, but it does smack of further dice loading. One thing the emergence of City, and to a lesser degree, the resurgence of teams like Tottenham and Newcastle has done, is make other teams spend more to try to keep up. The "old" top 4 were too comfortable, but now, Liverpool as an example haven't even been top 4 for 3 years now, and are desperate to get back. Arsenal would seem to be the most vulnerable, whilst you feel Chelsea will always throw money at a situation, despite Abramovich stating they need to become self-sufficient.

The Adebayor situation is surely the best argument that players are paid too much. And there's no way that it's for the good of the game because of the trickle-down effect. Those advocating abolition of transfer fees (as I've seen some suggest on here) are turkeys voting for Christmas. Too much money already goes out of the game.

After all... a small percentage of them get to do a History of Art degree in Wimbledon Polytechnic... what more do they bloody well want?

Victor... you're about 200 years early.

IMO it is not that people in poor areas are less well educated it is because they settle for less.

It is often said "Money is the root of all evil" and nowhere is there more support for that statement than in football.

Most agents and footballers don't give a damn for the game as ;ong as they are wreaking every penny from it and instead of it being reinvested in the game it is going to luxury car dealers, wine. women and song.

I believe the FA should place a levy of 5 % on every clubs wage bill and 10% on agents fees and use that fund to develop the game.

I aso think clubs should not be allowed anyone under 13 unless they are from the clubs local area.

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Dear God.... That the lower classes are less well educated is an undisputable fact!

I thought you said you were heavily educated... yet you come off with this clap trap.

It's not about self pity its about cold hard facts. The reality is that the UK now has a more unequal income distribution than in the 1970s, people in poorer areas have lower educational attainment, poorer health, and lower life expectancy — this isn't self-pity; they are facts.

Whilst you bathe in a nostalgic glow of how hard you have had it and how well you have done, others weren't so lucky — not because they were feckless or indolent but because they were unlucky. Countries that have more equal income distributions have better indicators for health, wealth and education for ALL. They are also fairer, happier societies for all.

Sport, like every other aspect of life, is dictated by politics — to pretend otherwise is self delusion.

My point is simpler than that. The billions are in football because people want to watch the players play. The commercial team are exploiting that, they're not generating anything themselves.

We can argue that players get paid too much, its hard to argue otherwise given the debt clubs have got into trying to compete with wages, but, to use your phrase the clubs paying the wages are the turkeys. Its classic game theory really, if Club A doesn't pay Player X what he wants then Club B, C or D will, so they feel they have no choice. Therefore everyone does it and they all end up in trouble.

Only top down regulation can prevent this, and the G14 group (with its 30-odd members) will ensure this never happens. Bizarrely, the bastion of free market economics and pure capitalism (as a religion) the good old USA actually controls the finances of its sport in a far more totalitarian way, with salary caps, and other restrictions. It used to be joked that the NFL was the only successful communist organisation in the world.

I would argue that football needs a regulatory system that limits the wages of players, but I see absolutely no way of making that happen. I also believe that football has become, and will continue to become less and less interesting because of the lack of it. The best players should be spread out around the teams, on the pitch in front of the paying spectators week in week out, not sitting on the bench of the three or four biggest teams because they can afford them, whilst we have to watch Glenn Whelan for our £30.

I agree with a lot of the sentiment about Football being too much about money and instant success. This hampers anybody's attempts to build gradually and carefully. You can, as an illustration of this, use the patience SAF was afforded at Man Utd back in the late 80's as a masterstroke by the United Board. He had been in charge two and a half years when Everton rolled up at Old Trafford in May 1989 and won 2-0. The crowd? Under 24,000! Yet, look what he has achieved in the end.

It's taken Dave Brailsford 10 years to get British Cycling where it is, but he's not down at British Cycling demanding £200k a week and threatening to go and run Spain's cycling is he? Two way loyalty.

Really though, Peter Waren nailed it quite early on. Regardless of class, schooling, how wealthy their parents are etc, the one thing that has stood out has been the humility, the dedication (sound like Roy Castle there!), the willingness to thank the crowd and their coaches for their help and the drive to win. Some footballers have this too, Tim Cahill being an excellent example, but far too many don't.

Is it any coincidence that the England team has failed so miserably over the last 10 years with a so called 'golden era of talent' that includes the likes Terry, Cole, Ferdinand, Lampard, Rooney, Gerrard, Glen Johnson and Gareth Barry? When scouse hating, crowd agitating Gary Neville is held up in the England squad as some sort of leading light for professionalism, you know we are in trouble!

I was educated in one of the worst schools in the UK in Knowsley (going by results). I had the great privilege and advantage of having parents who although they couldn't understand much we learned after around the age of 10 having left schools at 14 & being evacuated in WWII they believed in the value of work and education. I was one of three out of 250 that got to University that year.

I was surrounded by kids who didn't have that - looking back they arrived at school hungry, had no encouragement at home to learn, some probably even had it drummed into them that schools were something to endure until you got a 'real job' - but then left school to no jobs in the 70's. No help, no encouragement at home was a big part of the problem right from age 5 and it is the same today as young mothers mistakenly believe that learning to read and count is done at school and the reason their child can't do either as well as others in the same school is because of their 'class'.
No doubt some politician told them that one way or another. If it is a betrayal to your 'class' to work hard and better yourself then the whole 'class' system becomes self perpetuating but thankfully many have stopped listening to politicians and made their own mind up.

Sadly there are still people who will continue to spread the poisonous rubbish that only those born into the elite can prosper, even at the Olympics. There are a few more barriers in the way of kids born with little money (and there are also advantages) but the biggest barrier by far are the people who tell them it can't be done, its not for the likes of you or through their own indifference fail to encourage. Those people are often those closest to them who should be telling them the opposite, not some profit-oriented beast that needs them to be grist to the capitalist mill. Now more than ever that isn't true - break the cycle.

If you have children, encourage them to try diffrent things. They are fearless until you start to give them reasons not to do something.

It's like the woman I saw the other day telling her small child as it patted a neighbour's dog, "Don't worry, he won't bite you." Seemingly offering reassurance, but actually it hadn't occurred to that small child the dog (a small friendly dog at that) would bite him. Now that child worries that all dogs will bite him and avoids them. It hadn't occurred to that parent to not take the negative angle.

Nature vs nurture? Nurture is most of it, I think.

I detest some of these footballers but there and hundreds of hard-working ones who deserve to be where they are and don't deserve the shit that they are tarnished with.

Today they are getting slaughtered in the papers when athletes are getting sent home for drug abuse or not trying hard enough, dickheads are hurling bottles at an Olympic final and athletes are partying showing their arses,imagine if this was the football world cup.

I look out my window and it`s like New Years day, everyone is on their bike or running and good on them but it wont last, they will all be back to painting their faces in the flag of St George cheering on the footy players for the next four years until another olympics arrives.

My take on it is simple. Look at how much training swimmer Hannah Miley does in a typical week (at least 36 hours in the pool, regularly running the 2.5 miles to and from the pool, plus lots of hours in the gym) and she got to Olympic finals without winning any medals. I heard Michael Phelps say that they train so hard in order to go beyond the point where the body is wracked with pain - so when that happens in a race, the body is accustomed to it and can keep going. Rebecca Addlington says she is not sure how long she’ll carry on for, mainly because she dreads the “sick bucket” sessions – the ones so hard that they guarantee that she will be sick. Compare that to the training that a modern day Premiership footballer does. Is it any surprise that when it comes down to it our footballers don't always perform as we would like?

It isn’t about how much money they are on or what class they are. It is about how much effort do they put into training? How often do professional footballers put in more than 3 hours training a day?

Gary Player famously said something along the lines of “the more I practise, the luckier I get”. Unfortunately for football fans, I think the modern player is more concerned with choosing the colour of his new Ferrari than putting in an extra hour or two practising free kicks. They are millionaires – a lot of them without really proving anything other than they are quite good at kicking a ball around and show a bit of promise – can you really blame them?

"You will have heard stories of players running so much that they end up being sick and I can confirm they are true. I have seen it happen. Perhaps the funniest incident I’ve ever witnessed was a couple of years ago with Everton in St Andrews Bay. David Moyes enjoys making us run up sand dunes until we are at a standstill but, for one of my team-mates, it all became too much.

His legs buckled on one descent and he went head first into the sand. As you can imagine, there was uproar among those who were watching. The man in question, though, did not find it funny and he wanted to let the manager know.

Unfortunately for him, his head had gone that far underground that when he came to speak his mind, all that ended up coming out was a mouthful of sand." Phil Neville, last year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2011964/Phil-Neville-This-18th-pre-season-training--believe-doesnt-easier.html#ixzz238V0IPWw

Some members of this race we call human, never cease to fuckin' amaze me with their ignorance. We're all doomed!

Alan, the Rausing family are totally different from your average smackhead in the street. They, more than likely, had a few chances.

Britain codified most sports and the expression “fair play” is not translated in other languages, but kept the same.
The older generation grew up playing sports in school yards, streets and parks, picking two sides and reffing ourselves.
Still true today in many sports, pick-up games basketball, touch rugby, etc.

Football lost its way in the 1970s. The crowds attracted trouble makers wanting to roam around terraces in gangs, with little interest of what happened on the pitch.
Decision was made to separate the crowds as per Rangers and Celtic sectarianism, and then a tribal culture evolved. Before that the crowds were mixed. There was friendly chat, and friendly banter. Yes the odd fight with people in drink either with their own or opposition supporters, but not gang-on-gang. The players slowly but surely reacted to this change and behaved in a similar way towards opposition. In the 1960s a good away side would be applauded from the pitch after having played well. The entertainment value was high, and the enjoyment splendid. The day could be a family event. Rugby Union did not separate crowds at internationals and there is still plenty of “banter” and lots of fun. The crowd is entertained by both teams. They may cheer a bit louder for their own, just as all athletes in the Olympics were enjoyed and a little bit louder for Team GB, but other were also cheered.

The Brits love sports, and are getting disillusioned with football as the “sport” is being lost. A wonderful skilful game to play, that may need some law changes, i.e. too many players on the pitch and not enough space, a bit more contact allowed, and refs need to punish “ungentlemanly conduct” at all times. Players wages do not come into it as they are market forces. Clubs should look after young men as best they can with advice, etc. but lots of money and lots of free time is another problem.

Fergus

Life long Everton supporter with cousins who support the Darkside.

Football is the simplest game on earth that's why it's popular.

Encompassing the athletic fundamentals of running and jumping with physical conflict in the framework of a team knocks spots of individuals doing "their thing".

There is more passion in the Ryder cup than any golf tournament because a team instils more admiration - it becomes representative - like an army. Football has this in spades athletics hasn't and never will.

To my mind football reached it's zenith in the early 70s with Brazil, England, Everton and it's been downhill since but the fundamentals of it being the worlds working class game remains.

They're always be jumpers for goal posts despite FIFA, UEFA and all the other gangsters at the top which is why other sports will always lag behind.