Do we still need the Blue Union?

(But don't respond kindly to either scrutiny or criticism).

...Oh, and the creepy, cake-carrying clown was a bad idea..

In my mind, there needs to be a stadium plan, probably involves a rebuild of parts of Goodison. Also there needs to be more focus on driving up the income from sponsors, like a new deal with Kitbag or take control of shirt sales ourselves.

These are the two major issues that need attention, we cannot go on like this, so the BU needs to head that campaign and start building trust with Kenwright.

The only way this can happen though is a public apology, or else the Kenwright supporters will never back the BU no matter how good their intentions are.

Kenwright is going to stay put, that much is for certain, so the only way forward is to cooperate with Kenwright in order to get going.

If the BU does not change their strategy and apologize to Kenwright then I am afraid they will die quietly and everyone will forget them. That is the future, the question is, will the BU ever be willing to do that?

If any BU people read this I hope you take note and implement my ideas. This is about what is best for the club, something needs to happen fast and the BU are in the best position to jump start the club into doing something good long term.

As is aptly being drawn out on the thread about the WBA game earlier, it's not simply black & white, it's shades of gray as the Editor describes it – although he declined to name how many shades.

I'm sure there are those who are opposed to the BU who would like to see new owners, but do not agree with the methodology of the BU, with some having called it "Kopite Behaviour". Equally I am sure there are those who think our board are doing a sterling job, and would rather have an "Evertonian" board than an outside board who may not have our best interests at heart. There are too many examples of clubs that have hit the buffers for this group to point to as a means of justifying the status quo.

Unfortunately if this website is any sort of indicator, then a couple more results like today will have people clamouring for more from the BU, which will then feed the argument of them being too reactionary – I really think after calling off planned action last season to encourage fans to get behind the team, they gave ammunition to those opposing them who would've frankly used anything.

As long as they don't engage in destructive or militant tactics I personally would continue to support them. It's too easy to forget what a Union is supposed to be all about – giving a voice to those who could otherwise not speak, protecting the interests of those who would otherwise be easily taken advantage of, etc. Sadly the modern industrial relations incarnation is all about 6 figure salaries, subsidised housing and whatever else these leaders can pull. Oh, and the occasional pay rise not necessarily linked to productivity for their members who sub them. I don't think anyone could accuse the BU of having self-interest at the heart of it – they just seem like genuine fans who want to ask questions, given the regular forum for doing so is now denied to them (AGM).

A few weeks ago you were moaning and bleating that we must take to the streets, set up, get more vocal and visible, and perhaps you were even thinking of walking the talk and flying over to give a helping hand/voice (I do recall you physically threatening a fellow blue on here) instead of berating and belittling others.

Have you turned Quaker on us mate? Talk about changing your tune. Ladies and gentlemen and honorable guests, I give you the new softer, reasoned, thoughtful, sagacious, hand across the aisle Jimmy Solon the mediator Sorheim, King of the Norwegians, Prince of Poise, Earl of Apologists. All rise ........

Of course the BU shouldn't just disappear.

It seems to me there's been some myths, which over time become the accepted truth. I was overseas when I read the transcript of the now-famous interview with BK in his London office, facilitated and I believe attended by someone who is a BK friend, and has a long-established career of.... choosing words... maximising opportunities for self advancement...? (I believe he offered the interview over Twitter).

The myth put about was that the meeting was taped. BU has said repeatedly it wasn't, EFC postured legally, and nothing happened. The transcript even includes BK stating words to the effect of "make sure you write this down", which to me is a tacit acceptance this was going to be published somewhere, but I'm also sure I read the blurb before that stated they were agreed minutes...

So I think EFC's then-"Prince of Spin" didn't like the way the situation was espoused, and tried to spike it by wrecking the credibility of BU. And a lot bought it.

As I've said, the BU can only achieve so much, and for me the big achievement is unveiling or releasing info that has made some fans take notice – even if they dismiss it.

In terms of changing the behaviour of the board? Only the creditors/banks can do that. T'was ever thus and t'will ever be.

The problem the BU face, I imagine, is the short-termism amongst the popular support. It's understandable. I remember in the folly of youth, my week/mood (a mood lasted a week when I was a teenager) depended on how we did.

An easier way might be to target the shareholders, to try to get the AGM platform back - the legitimate right of any shareholder to ask for. I believe the Chairman of BU asked BK directly as to when they would reintroduce the AGM, the response was "not while you control the shareholders association". You see what he did there? And I don't deny for one moment that there were militant shareholders at the AGMs causing "issues", but you can't label everyone - I've attended many shareholders meetings, in every case as an "advisor" to the board members, and frankly, I can see why boards get pissed off with them. But that's corporate democracy!

The recent spending of money that was gained from the sale of a player i.e. nil net spend, is just an elastoplast on a jugular slash although it may well have served to take the wind out of the BU sails.

Michael #045, can you give us an example of when the BU have not been behind the team?

Personally I think the BU made a huge tactical mistake when they accepted the total bullshit from the club that there was deal in place, and their strident protests could derail it.... They were totally bought off in that moment, and I think they are struggling to recover from the resulting massive loss of credibility.

The recent success in terms David Moyes's remarkable activities in the transfer window have also put paid to a huge part of the BU platform. It doesn't matter whether these players come good or not — the fact that Moyes was able to bring them in is surely more than enough for most Blues fans.

As a result, things can probably carry on as they have for at least another year. The calmour for a Sugar Daddy to buy the club now has a hollow ring to it. It seems nothing is going to change anytime soon...

[ps: Some great posts above from Matt Traynor]

The crisis is over but the BU are not any part of recovery, they don't have a constructive idea to bring to the table.

As Jason and others implied, BU may be off the radar but the reasons behind their formation have not gone away.

Bill and the board are laughing their heads off behind the Moyes protective shield.

Leeds in slow motion, that us that is.

BK hired Moyes and keeps him at the club and works in tandem with him. He has to be given a substantial part of the credit for how well Moyes seems to perform, they are a team not independent individuals

The situation at EFC is nothing like what happened at Leeds and it has been going on for 40 years not just since BK came a long. Learn yer 'istory please.

"This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine... We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again."

Great granddad Mason (listening to a radio the size of Malta).

"See, I told you Churchill was full of shite, he's an unnecessary sideshow and no part any solution..."

Etc blah

"I take great pride in the way we exceed people's expectations despite being penniless".

Well if that"s how you feel, that's how you feel.

Personally 'great pride' isn't the sensation I feel when we finish 7th instead of 10th.

Also, re spending, don't think QPR (despite their owner's wealth) can be compared to City/Chelsea.

Alot of neutral fans have huge admiration for what we have achieved given our means. I feel the same way as them.

We were not part of the big 5 financially, we were as bankrupt then almost as we are now. We gave the illusion of being in the big 5 on the basis of having recently won the league (but on a fast trajectory down). We are in an even worse position now because we have much higher operating costs and there is no correlation which meaans we stay a big club forever because we were one once. We have sold players and assets and increased wages to be where we are. There is no causal relationship between BK coming and us being in a poor financial state. Would you prefer us to be in the first division with healthy accounts? Of course you wouldn't - you just like to perpetuate the myth that EFC are doing badly because of the current board. We are doing amazingly well because of them we are just still as broke as we were before they cam with the same inability to challenge the very top clubs.

A challenge, what has the current board done to bring the club down as you say and what are your suggestions to turn the situation around?

Everybody supports the aim of the BU, we all want the best for the club. It’s just that the BU don’t really understand the running of Everton, the problems of finding the money that’s required just for us to stand still never mind to break into the top 4 and the feelings of the vast majority of Evertonians. Regarding the negligence and incompetence of the board, I asked for proof and received none, I asked for proof because what was being stated for most of the time was opinion dressed as fact. Regarding the DK enquiry I have actually read the report many times and I provided paragraph number supporting every statement that I made and I will never make a statement unless I can show it to be so in fact or reasonable based on the balance of probability.

You’ll see my challenge above to Richard, answer it but please, be sure to show what you say is correct and not the usual Goodison myth. Also please don’t raise anything that is patent nonsense such as the board has brought the club down by not investing their own money

“If the problem is still there” was not a statement of fact or opinion. It was rhetorical. If you struggle with what that means then I can explain it to you. Of course the bloody problem is still there and the BU is doing exactly what?

Coincidentally I once wrote a short piece here on how their tactics reminded me of the 1930's propaganda experts in Germany and those operating in Liverpool in the 70's - rewriting events, underhand tactics (means to an end and all that) with a thread of ridicule (and in one case bizarrely I was sent a PM that spoke of threatened violence if I didn't shut up) underpinning it if you didn't conform, much of it from people who could deny any link to BU if needed. Either they have slightly shady connections/supporters or we can try to envisage the club engaging these people to discredit BU. Cue conspiracy theorists?

And now you are trying to tell me they were told a buyout was imminent so they ceased operations? Much of their privileged information seemed to come from sources inside Goodison, perhaps the same sources had been used against them?

Or perhaps support had in fact dwindled and there was nowhere left to go.

There is clearly a small group of committed supporters that are desperate to help the club find a way forward. How about we now set up an organised fans voice that has the confidence of the majority of supporters which seeks to provide practical help to the club - not unlike the supporters trust in fact.

The target needs to be restoration of AGMs, even the most apolitical would be intriqued if this became a headline issue.

A famous quote says:

"Faith is the idol of the mob; it adores everything it does not understand."

Fans won't criticise till educated - then again a brain transplant would be necessary for some the BK devotees on here.

The Challenge Martin #161

Q) What has the board done to bring The Club down.

A) NOTHING, absolutley fuckin NOTHING.

You and too many others like you are nothing to do with any solution and all to do with the problem.

"..though comparing their collective voice to Churchill in the 1930's is pretty ambitious. For a start he was democratically elected rather than self appointed".

Democratically elected to WHAT exactly?

MP for Little Spoffington-On-The-Cringe? (or whatever his constituency was - can't be arsed googling every fucking thing)

He may have been 'democratically' elected as an MP, but he certainly wasn't democratically elected as (wartime) PM (unless there's some 1939/40 general election I've missed).

He (very) basically ended up with that Job because he was NEEDED.

Because he was the right man for the job and (nb: the democratically elected) Chamberlain and/or Lord Halifax weren't.

Not 'democratic' but definitely the right man for the job AT THAT TIME.

You accuse those prepared to defend the BU of 'damage limitation'.

Well better that (imo) than being in total denial

Sam 160, you say..

"A lot of neutral fans have huge admiration for what we have achieved given our means. I feel the same way as them".

Again if that's how you see it, that's how you see it.

I see this 'admiration' as a pat on the head from supporters of teams who we pose no real threat to.

Personally I'd rather compete and be loathed.

If you have to pay extortoinate amounts of interest on short term loans for operating capital you are in deep shit.

If your commercial deals and income are on a par with Bolton Wanderers, you are incompetent.

If your corporate offering is on a par with League 1 & 2 clubs you should not be running a club in the richest league in the world.

I could go on - but there are some " Facts " for those who want them.

Even the teams we do compete with, the likes of Tottenham down to Sunderland, Villa & Swansea have admiration for us and the way we are run. Admittedly they don't know as much as we do about Kenwright's many shortcomings but the point is we are an old-fashioned club, run by a fan and with a manager who seems to get the best out of what is available to him. Of course not everyone sees it this way and truth be told I probably wouldn't say No to a billionaire arab but in a way I'm proud we don't have one.

Fact 1 is that 90% of the time money is the factor behind success in football these days. Sometimes you have clubs like Bilbao who build on a great youth system and achieve some success but even Bilbao finished well behind real Madrid last season.

Fact 2 is we have no money.

That is the reality and much as you can harp on about history and the 60s it doesn't really affect the here and now.

The idea that BU may have burnt their bridges with the Board is somewhat irrelevant - the Board won't be ousted through friendly persuasion. If supporters want the current Board out then it won't happen via AGM's, Fans Forums, petitions or even marches. Rather than trying to engage "constructively", I suspect the only effective way forward would be to become more aggressive & take the issue from Goodison Park to the homes & businesses of the Board. However, no doubt such an approach would be considered 'kopite behaviour'.

Fact 1 Not sit on my arse and accept we remain mediocre. At least strive to better the club.

Which leads to

Fact 2. Try to influence the board to either put money in or attract money.

Nothing seems to be happening.

You may say well how do I know the Board are not trying to deliver the above? The answer is: I don't know — and I don't know cos the Board refuse to answer ANYONE'S requests for info!! The Board have cut off any meaningful conversation with all supporters never mind the BU!!

The recent history of this Board would suggest that anything that comes out should be taken with a pinch of salt. Truth is a commodity this lot don't seem to have an over of abundance of.

Finally, Sam, I would suggest the History of our Club does have a great effect on the present. No history, no future. Have you never had a conversation with anyone and argued the point about our history and past success? Do you never mention our history? It's probably our history that attracted you, your family, granddad, great granddad to our club.

Just like in your own life you should never accept mediocrity you should always at least try and better yourself.

Not too sure what you are implying Dennis and it's probably best left there!

Nothing about what I have said suggests we should not strive or hope for better. No-one will be happier than me if we find an investor to pour money into the club or our next generation of youngsters sweep all and sundry aside.

I'm not a fan of the board by they are our board and its all very well hoping for what might come to pass in the form of investment but its all a pipe dream for now. Right now, we have no money. Given our circumstances we are doing ok I think.

Of course history is important but it is nethertheless history and by definition belongs in the past and not the present. The game has changed and there is simply no point in saying we used to be great why aren't we now.

Jim- Of course most fans want success and I have admitted that actually I probably would be over the moon if a russian gazilionnaire came along and brought us Messi etc. But for now i'm quietly proud that we are not some oligarchs plaything. I may be in the minority but i'm certainly not alone.

"Regarding the negligence and incompetence of the board, I asked for proof and received none"

Now I generally avoid BU threads for fear of being drawn into a discussion on irrelevant WW II analogies or the merits of cake-carrying clowns, but I cannot let that one slide. You have accused others of perpetuating myths as fact, yet this is exactly what you are doing here Martin, and I will focus on just one aspect to "prove" the negligence and incompetence of the board – merchandising.

Now you have already inferred that you are an intelligent man so I'll assume you don't need me to explain the importance of marketing and building the brand. So I will get right down to explaining to you the aforementioned negligence and incompetence, as I did on a previous thread, some months back, when you called for proof (apologies but I cannot recall which thread, though if you want "proof" of it's existence, I'll dig it out) which strangely, you didn't respond to.

I am an Irish Evertonian, one of literally thousands. I live in Dublin. A cosmopolitan, football mad city, mere miles from the city of Liverpool, the capital of a country with strong historical and footballing links to the UK, the city of Liverpool and Everton FC itself.

The current board have, in recent years, overseen the signing of a long term contract with a third party merchandising company which has meant it is impossible to purchase any official EFC merchandise in this country. I should add that EFC have two current Ireland internationals in their first team, while a third (Shane Duffy) is surely a matter of time only. I am sure you can see where I am going with this...

Fortunately, I get to Goodison a few times a year and can purchase merchandise there, but not everyone in Ireland – and other countries (I'll get to that point too) – can do so.

"But you can order online", I hear you say. Yes you can, but there are shipping costs which are not inconsequential. Plus the lack of a visible presence in the sports store of this country eliminates the opportunity for impulse buys. It also potentially eliminates the opportunity to attract a new generation of supporters, who may be drawn to something as simple as liking the look of the jersey in a shop. If you think that's fanciful, look at some of the reasons given on a recent thread about Evertonians from outside of Liverpool, as to why they support the club.

Ireland is just one country. Under the current board's reign, we've also had players from places like USA and Australia (in fact, the poster boys for football in these countries) which are emerging markets (at worst) in footballing terms, but behemoths in terms of economy, with fans having plenty of disposable income (relatively speaking) who cannot purchase merchandise due to the aforementioned limitations of third party agreement which the current board have signed.

So as you see, this is proof that the board have failed to capitalise on merchandising opportunities in the past, present and for the future. As I said, that's just one aspect where the board have proven to be negligent and incompetent, to the obvious detriment of the club.

If you want to win the respect and support of the majority, you put your views to a vote. Churchill was elected to parliament many times and at the outbreak of WW II was voted in as leader by a coalition made up of elected representatives of the people about to fight a war. His party were voted out immediately after the war too. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill]

Democracy isn't without fault – Militant gained power in the 80s in Liverpool by exploiting democracy in some ways (much as NF have done more recently), at least at the beginning, but it is our best system to date to decide issues on which a majority interest is at stake.

You infer I am apathetic and of course you are right. What right do I have to criticise BU? The same right everyone else has to whom they are trying to appeal for support, or is that not their main intent?

Recently there have been a group of similarly committed Evertonians setting up a supporters trust. Trusts are bound by legislation and are required to be democratic by law with open and honest structures. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supporters'_trust] – I suggest we throw our encouragement behind such an organisation. I cannot think of a better way to preceed but if I do I will get in touch...

I am more or less with you on this one.

What needs to change is the whole football is a business thing and turn it back into a sport. Okay, it's never been handicapped to help the really poor clubs but there is a line and it's been crossed.

Things are starting to happen with the new financial rules but will they make any difference? and will they go further if they don't? Unfortunately it's up to Fifa now.

Eugene... on the Churchill thing I don't think we have ever had a democratically elected PM. More recently the likes of Blair and Cameron have certainly thought so.

UEFA (and their sponsors) will not allow a situation to develop where the big clubs do not compete in their competition.

If any club were to suddenly become rich, they could "do a Man City" by spending big in the first year, accepting it would take them 3 years to get into Europe, and get that spend off their UEFA accounts.

The Premier League are currently debating whether to introduce a version of FFP similar to that introduced to the Football League. What this in essence would mean would clubs would spend according to their turnover, with transfer sanctions imposed for clubs breaching this. You will see why Man City are opposed to this.

Therefore even if we suddenly got rich, we'd only be able to spend big if we had a large turnover - a big stadium, lots of corporate hospitality, excellent global sponsor and merchandising deals etc. etc. Oh, I think I've spotted a flaw...

"..but I seem to remember the official line was "It won't get a safety certificate, we can't stay ...as much as I'd love to." Strange, that particular little problem appears to have resolved itself"

Yes that IS strange.

There was no 'plan B' yet.....there WAS.

Stay. Where. We. Are.

(to be fair, this alternative 'plan' was only known by EVERY SINGLE FUCKER ON THE PLANET apart from BK and his lisping fat Smithers).

This is exactly what will happen: Moyes will leave, our best players will follow, Kenwright will employ some shit manager like Big Sam, EFC will struggle with results, sack Big Sam, appoint a new manager up and coming, Kenwright doesn't give him any money, we get relegated, the fans go nuts, finnally they get the pressure on Kenwright, he goes, we start again from scratch.

Simples

In their way, BU have done so and they must be applauded for doing so. Whether I or anyone else agrees with how they are organised or what their aims are does not matter. What cannot be disputed is that BU want what is best for Everton FC.

Long may BU last they are absolutely necessary.

Many a true word said in jest.

In a nutshell you've covered the potential "reward" for ignoring the BK & co masterplan of mortgage any asset then remortgage some more. When the shit really hits the fan sell the the only assets left - the players.

"What else can they do?" shout the laissez-faire gnomes from the shelter of their toad stools.

Indeed!! ..... what else could they do?
(casts envious glance to man City)

Do you really trust the people running the club?

Why do many people just not believe anything the club says anymore?

There may be a reason!!

This board have proven they require closely monitoring. Among other things, their high handed arrogance and spin tactics, bewildering arrogance considering the failures, has alienated many & divided the fan base.

One example. They have track record of deviousness & incompetence over the ground issue. They cannot get it together, at all.

Over a decade since the KD. Nothing. And Kirkby wasnt real, it was a mirage, it was never going to happen, thankfully.

Since then there has been the Everton Place debacle. Which im glad didnt happen as it would have been the end of any chances of redevelopment.

The board have one thing on their radar, if its working, and that is a ground move, facilitated by an enabling development. In the absence of any info, I can only assume they have no plans to do anything and are waiting to be bailed out.

The ground issue ia a conplete open goal, their track record is indefensible and is a stone cold example of why, more than ever this board needs, in the absence of AGM's or a local press with teeth, a voice that will hold it to account

I have never inferred that I’m intelligent per se only above the level that the club’s “Guardians” give to people like me for having the temerity for supporting the board in any way (or should I say not denigrating them).

I really don’t want to get into these nonsensical arguments but can I just point out one thing about your post, sincere that I believe it was? It is your opinion, that’s all; until I hear the explanation of the club and have the ability to compare this against your opinion and form my own, I’ll note it as your opinion.

If you can direct me to the Club’s explanation of what they did then I’ll thank you. If that is your only example of criminal mismanagement that has somehow dragged the club down then it really isn’t much because our merchandise sales are trivial compared with the clubs some think we should be emulating.

I tend to look at the squad we have now to see what a bloody good position we are in with some understanding of how it has been achieved and give them a little credit rather than just constantly pull them down as some do. Remember they are the owners and they can have an agenda, it doesn’t have to match yours. The BU can never be representative of the fans as they will never have a line of communication with the club because of their actions so far.

I hate the fact that the club is now a minnow in the financial stakes but I can see many reasons why that has been inevitable that don’t have to be because of successive boards. We are small now because we are small and we have no more right to expect us to be “big” compared with say Blackburn other than our ‘istory.

Even though I’m fairly happy with where we are now I believe that it’s only temporary and that our long term trajectory is down until we reach a sustainable equilibrium. The only hope we have is that this squad can gel and break into the top 4 or 5 and have a good run in Europe. After watching Liverpool play Arsenal yesterday and Everton play WBA Saturday, I see no hope that this will happen. It’s my opinion of course, no more.

I'll get me coat..............

Do you really trust the people running the club?

Why do many people just not believe anything the club says anymore?

There may be a reason!!

This board have proven they require closely monitoring. Among other things, their high-handed arrogance and spin tactics, bewildering arrogance considering the failures, has alienated many & divided the fan base.

One example. They have track record of deviousness & incompetence over the ground issue. They cannot get it together, at all.

Over a decade since the KD. Nothing. And Kirkby wasnt real, it was a mirage, it was never going to happen, thankfully.

Since then there has been the Everton Place debacle. Which I'm glad didn't happen as it would have been the end of any chances of redevelopment.

The board have one thing on their radar, if it's working, and that is a ground move, facilitated by an enabling development. In the absence of any info, I can only assume they have no plans to do anything and are waiting to be bailed out.

The ground issue ia a complete open goal, their track record is indefensible and is a stone cold example of why, more than ever this board needs, in the absence of AGMs or a local press with teeth, a voice that will hold it to account.

Here’s an example, “The BU can never be representative of the fans as they will never have a line of communication with the club” Why can’t they represent the fans? Why do they need to communicate with those who are demonstrable liars? It is only this individual’s opinion that they do not have communication with the Everton hierarchy, they may have excellent communication for all we know, they may have been promised change, I have no idea, neither does he nor you but he is exactly what I described earlier, somebody who talks a lot and does nothing.

Here’s an example, I’m going to meet a guy on a business matter tonight instead of Tuesday because they are tied up in a meeting tomorrow. That someone has an association with one of the member groups of the blue union, they can’t meet me tomorrow because incredibly they’re meeting Liverpool at Anfield. Now, when I want to find out what’s happening at Liverpool who will I talk to, this guy or someone whose opinion is formed through watching a match on the TV?

Like I said earlier, there are talkers and doers, people who live in the real world and people who live in fuckwitistan, of course you makes your choice who to believe, I think the majority can do that.

There’s so much goalpost shifting in your last post that we are almost on a different pitch altogether. You originally asked for “proof” of board negligence and incompetence. When provided with it, you then:

(1) Dismiss it as an opinion and not proof.
(2) Ask for the reasons behind the board neglecting to capitalise on merchandising opportunities i.e. “If you can direct me to the Club’s explanation of what they did then I’ll thank you.”
(3) Attempt to diminish the worthiness of the point by saying: “If that is your only example of criminal mismanagement that has somehow dragged the club down then it really isn’t much because our merchandise sales are trivial compared with the clubs some think we should be emulating.”

So let me address your points in that order:

(1) It’s not my opinion that there are countless Evertonians in Ireland and other countries who cannot procure club merchandise in those countries. It’s a fact. It’s not my opinion that this is due to the contractual agreement the board have entered into with a third party distributor. It’s a fact. It’s not my opinion that marketing opportunities arose through employing players from countries such as USA and Australia and that these opportunities could not be maximised at least partially due to the limitations of that contractual agreement. It’s a fact.

(2) I am not privy to the reasons why the board have entered into this relationship. In theory that could be asked at an AGM, but alas the board decided to discontinue AGMs. An educated guess would tell me that they entered into the agreement to secure immediate revenue, as opposed to having the foresight to have implemented a long term plan. No doubt you will dismiss that, since I cannot prove it, but then you originally asked for evidence of negligence and not the reasons why they acted negligently.

(3) It is not the only example I could come up with. However as I stated in my original post, it is the ONLY example I chose to focus on. But then you either read that and chose to ignore it, in order to try dismiss it as the “only” example, or else you didn’t read my post properly. As for your assertion that our merchandise is “trivial” compared with other clubs, the point is that merchandising opportunities have not been grasped by the board.

Fair enough, your view is that the squad is in a good position and that this is reason to praise the board, despite evidence (sorry, opinion) of board mismanagement. However all I would say is that Leeds fans would also have viewed their squad as being in a good position ten or so years ago. I hasten to add I am not saying we are Leeds’ equivalent, but am merely comparing to make the point that current squad strength is not the only measurement.

One final point Martin, regarding your "We are small now because we are small” comment. You are stating your belief that we are small (by the way, it’s your opinion that we are small, one which I wholeheartedly disagree with) simply because….well, for no other reason than we just are. If so, then it stands to reason that the board can neither be blamed or praised for our current standing. If you truly believe that to be the case, then why on earth do you expend so much time and energy praising their actions?

Indeed BU did rattle cages but ultimately, got itself further away from the cages by doing so, even on this thread there is some talk of the campaign against the board being more aggressive, whatever that's supposed to mean.

To move on and hopefully come up with solutions to the problems the club faces, we need to have dialogue with the board, but that means building up trust (excuse the pun) on both sides I think.

Whatever anyone thinks of this current board, you are not going to change anything by shouting at Kenwright through the railings, in fact, nothing will change unless a large number of people get together in a properly organised group, be that Trust Everton or something along those lines.

Having said that, maybe a lot of our supporters don't really go any further than turning up for the match, if memory serves, less than half of those polled actually returned the ballot papers for DK, one of the most important votes in the clubs history I would say, but 20,000 regular attendees at GP thought otherwise, it seems.

However, that last paragraph exemplifies the apathy of our fan base and the problems anyone attempting something will face.

Putting it bluntly, and I cant be bothered putting it any other way on this phone, I think there has been some massive piss taking going on at times in the last decade or so.

On the vote, possibility of a bit of vote fatigue.

However the trigger point for our fan base seems to be a very real flirtation with the bottom 3.

Sometimes things get lost in the posting. Alas.

I know one thing can be guaranteed, if Moyes got us to the league stages of the CL next season, the overwhelming majority of our supporters wouldn't give a flying fuck about any underlying problems at the club, that's just the way it is I think, I can't remember wringing my hands in dismay at the clubs financial woes while I was sat in Wembley {til the second half started that is ! the bastards!}

We have a board that lacks vision, or, when it comes to the crunch, fails to deliver (investment or stadium move). A small number of individuals can make a lot happen, but ours over the last 40 years or so hasn't.

Bill can carry on saying he wants to sell it but, in the interim, what the hell is the plan to increase revenue? The kitbag deal sucks, the kit sponsor is weak in comparison to others, we have corporate facilities in a tent, whilst the Park end (our only main stand) and car park are utilised for car parking space and admin.

We are repeatedly told that the current footprint is not adequate? Why the hell are we not utilising it? Successive CEOs and marketing directors are repeatedly adding little real value, while the board sits on its hands.

If Elstone was on performance-related pay, he would struggle put toast on the kitchen table.

To the people running the club they will see it as a simple name change and nothing more. Same donkey, different name. They will feel that they don't need to give interviews anymore after the last debacle.

So what's the point? Any chance supporters had of forming a group to oust the board is almost dead. It'll take something special to be able to do it again; only this time properly!!!!

The Blue Union would have unquestionably had much greater support, naturally, if Moyes wasnt maintaining the finishes he has been achieving. Hence him being called the heatshield and the fear people feel about him leaving.

I think the point were both agreeing on Steve is that most certainly don't care about the finances, finer details of the club......for many its a weekend release, pint social....nothing wrong with that.....i was the personification of that for years.

However, I have, over the last 15 years become increasingly disillusioned/angry/fatigued/upset/outright pissed off about many things.

Im not just talking about an inability to sign £20 million players. Many other things that have occurred......we all proably know the kind of things im hinting at.....theyve been listed too many times.

I want a long term strategy from the club to progress on various issues. Standards have slipped at Everton and we need to ask better of the club we all care about.

Whats wrong with that?

On the pitch by the late 90's standards had fallen off a cliff at Everton. It got turned.

I want the same to happen in our boardroom and have time for anyone who, out of concern, gets off their arse to help bring about the changes the club needs.

I actually think the trauma of the early to late 90's has alot to do with current attitudes.

Other than that, the only way he will go is something that is unthinkable to us; relegation and /or financial meltdown. His position is very strong and if the Blue Union can make him uncomfortable then I believe that can only be good.

The Trust is an excellent proposal but it’s a long term strategy that could be compromised if they were drawn into the same sphere of activity that BU are already engaged in. I think the hope must be that BU becomes more effective or that another alternative comes to the fore, but that would be difficult when one considers the criticism BU have recieved - & they’re an umbrella group of pre-existing organisations & so probably better placed from the start than any new group trying to set up from scratch.

You’re quite right that for many it’s all about the football on the park each week & not too much more. Who’s to say that’s wrong – it is only football, after all. The DK vote is of course, controversial for many reasons that have been done to death before so I won’t side-track to it here.

Bobby Thomas @510

Everton’s finances and playing fortunes didn’t really fall of a cliff in 1990, for me that was just a resumption of a general decline that set in after the 1970 season when football changed from a game where the School of Science could triumph against anything but then Arsenal came along with a negative but brilliant 4-4-2 that trumped science.

Just in general, Trust Everton is not the same as the BU, the BU is a talk only organization that has no acceptable solutions for the recovery and future development of the club. With Trust Everton, we the fans put our money where our mouths are and positively invest. Of course BU has laudable aims but they are no higher than that of Mr Joe average Evertonian, they don't represent Everton supporters and we need an organization that does.

Some of these decisions were poor, yes they provided x at the time, but put huge restrictions on growing the business (Park End development, Kitbag deal) have made the decision worse not better.

You say that they shouldn't have to put more of their own money in. You are right, but if you don't invest real cash into a business it will fail regardless of the name, add in weak vision and you have Everton hurtling towards the list of failed UK companies

Splurging on players did help our league position when they came in. But what is the strategy to pay for it in future periods? Or that the strategy is only that we are speculating on transfer fees in a world of player freedom at a significant amount of cost of capital.

Some very intelligent posters on here for instance, have come up with proposals and ideas that could /would be helpful and constructive in the way things are done at the club, and in my mind, these are the sort of people I want representing me at board level.

A shouty pressure group can't do that Dennis, I think we're agreed on that.

We need people on the inside seven days a week rather than 15 minutes before the odd home game when we're not playing well, with all that's gone on before, I think it's fair to assume it won't be BU doing that for us.

Once again in your haste to defend the board when replying to someone, you've again glossed over the points they were making. Read Ian @505 post again. You've said that selling off all our assets (and as a result paying more for them in the long term in the case of Finch Farm) is absolutely fine because it has enabled us to have a good squad. I disagree. It's no way to run a business. What the board should do, but has failed to do, is increase revenue streams such as shirt sponsership, merchandising and corporate facilities like other clubs such as Newcastle and Tottenham have done.

It would appear that the Board have no other plan than to await an offer too good to refuse, or a retail lead stadium development that would lead to an offer too good to refuse - all the while depending on the manager's abilities to maintain our top flight status. It's hard to see the scope for tweaking that plan othere than changing the mindset of the Board members, but I don't think that'll happen over tea & biscuits.

The vision you project will never materialise. Even if you got together with a group of like-minded Evertonians, & there are certainly a few who seem to share you point of view, then I believe you'd not make it across through the door & if the Board won't engage in dialogue there can be no influence. Nontheless, if you or anybody else were prepared to try I'd wish you all the best with your endeavours.

So if we had a group with a mandate voted for by the membership, a membership that is a true representation of our support locally and globally, a group that can use that collective financial power to influence the way things are done at the club, the club has to sit up and take notice I think.

Let's not forget, match going Evertonians contribute 20-25% of the clubs total turnover, they need us just as much as we need them, that sort of influence should be enough to get a foot in the door I reckon.

John Hurst (nominally 10?) played alongside Labone

Bally often said, quite correctly, that there were always 4 in our midfield trio - Johnny Morrissey

The first game of the season after the 70 championship they played Arsenal who played with 2 very good hold up foirwards in Kennedy and Radford and a very strong and uncompromising 4 man midfield and defence including Simpson, Rice, Storey, McKlintock, Armstrong, McNab. Everton played beautiful football but even though we scored a couple we only drew and I remember seeing a terrible look on their faces as though they knew the game had changed and they were history and they were. They then went on a dreadful run though from what I remember and we went from being the top team in the UK to also rans and on the slippery slope down. Arsenal went on to win the double and to buy Alan Ball to complete our misery

I remember seeing both Young and Vernon and you are correct, Roy Vernon was a fantastic player as was Denis Stevens. That was also football from a different era; the new era really started with Leeds and was brought to a fine art by the Arsenal double side. Win at all cost attitude, fit hard players who'd kick their grans legs from under them if they had the ball, many of whom were thugs masquerading as sportsmen. I also believe that if Leeds hadn't been playing on so many fronts in 1970 we wouldn't have won the League.

Leeds also played a very good 4-4-2 which was made very flexible with Grey and Lorrimer able to get up the flanks quickly and both able to score. What a side they were.

Aanyway, you haven't bloody well PROVED me wrong you rascal; my programme said they played 2-3-5 :-)

" However, the idea that any supporters group can have meaningful dialogue & genuine influence with this Board is quite laughable - they won't even allow shareholder access via AGM's!"

Absolutely spot on.

The smaller Shareholders have already "put their money where their mouth is" and are clearly NOT troublemakers.

If the board won't communicate with them you have to be naive in the extreme to think they'd talk to anyone else.

It's all about the AGM's they're respectable vehicles for accountability - which in reality is what this is about.

TrustEverton; start taking expressions of interest, it won't commit you or us to anything but you and we will know what the potential could be based on 'n' expressions @ ' a minimum ' per person per month.

Phil Bellis, you are correct of course but for me there was a big change around the time that Everton won the championship where it became more professional, much tighter and harder to win and we didn't adapt to it as many other very good sides didn't. For me that was when Everton's slide started with the mid 80s being perhaps a flukey but certainly temporary upward blip. I'm not sure that it could happen again in the EPL

One reasonable transfer window - reasonable as defined with being allowed to spend *most* of what we recouped on players. One good window in 5 years and all is forgiven -long live Blue Bill.

We really are on top of our commercial game. Our sponsorship deals are in line with the 4th most successful club in England.
We have a clear and transparent plan for the future of the club based around a new/renovated stadium
Everton has very serviceable debt that is well balanced by our long list of assets.

Is it me or perhaps re-signing Pienaar, getting a freebie, buying Mirallas, and getting another Belgian on-loan didn't really change an awful lot?

BU will not influence the search for a new owner or build a viable funding model for a new stadium. They have no scale, organisation or impact among the majority of Everton fans. So the overall summary is redefine your objectives or become irrelevant.

March '71? Was that week we were KO'd by Panathanaikos and Liverpool? If so that really was heartbreaking and as you say probably the end. After the euphoria of the title season and the belief that the sky was the limit for us.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2197818/Free-transfers-available-Premier-League-clubs.html

Made me smile anyway!

That's exactly what I've done for two years. Along with not purchasing any merchandise.

" If you feel that you have a relationship that is more personal than that and that the club treats you with contempt by its action then you are deluded"

...you see I'm a 4th generation blue, going back to my great grandfather. So being brought up an Evertonian from a far back as I can remember. Yes I do feel that I have more than a pure business/consumer relationship.

Martin, fans have been serially lied to (or mis-informed to put it very politely), we had AGMs cancelled, being treated with contempt actually doesn't really cover it. We've been cheated and the club deserves better. I hope my children and their children also get to see Everton FC as a major power in the years ahead. The negligence and incompetence of our board jeopardize that very hope.

If your relationship with Everton is purely on a consumer/business level, then good for you. But how on earth you can ignore all the evidence and say that any of this was justified or inevitable is just insane.

"..the club treats none of its fans with contempt".

See AGMs, Kirkby, King's Dock (nb: when someone lies to you, they are treating you with contempt)

"The relationship we have with the club is buying it's product or not and that is all"

Really?

So basically Everton FC, baked beans, bog roll, all the same thing to you?

Well here's a question, if football teams are products and we know there are teams that, in terms of results, are more successful than Everton FC, why do YOU support Everton?

Surely your clear-thinking, none-deluded rational brain would chose a more successful 'brand'?

"If you feel that you have a relationship that is more personal than that and that the club treats you with contempt by its action then you are deluded"

Sigh - yeah right 'everyone's deluded but me'

"In fact how the board runs the club is absolutely nothing to do with you so what right do you have to slag it?"

It's like you're competing for some online stupidity prize.

"Don't go if you don't like it otherwise offer something constructive and stop whining about how bad they are".

Apply this 'logic' Einstein and eventually there IS no fucking board because there's nothing to be the board of - kind of the point of the OP.

You really come across like the donkey who moves forward towards a carrot being dangled just in front of his eyes, oblivious to anything behind, further ahead or to either sides (nb: and consequently, one that fails to see the truck careering out of control until it's too late)

You do not as an individual become an emotional wreck if your tin of baked beans do not meet your standards of baked beanity. You simply change the brand.

You can change everything in life. Wife, religion, house, gender but you cannot change the team you support, you have it for life and you do become emotionally embroiled in it.

If you as a person don't ? Then I suggest you go and find another sport.

The fact that you are prepared to argue at length about what is beast for the club suggests to me that Everton is no more a product to you as to any of us. I have no emotional; commitment to ,say Marks and Spencer but I don't feel that I have been treated with contempt by them. Are you arguiong for the sake of it?

Either you have no concept of what being a football fan is about, the long established and acknowledged emotional connection that exists between a fan and their club, in many cases since chldhood or.............

You have, yet again resorted to spouting utter nonsense in some blinkered, tunnel vision quest to protect your stance at all costs. Quite what that stance is no-one appears to know, you included as the longer you post on a thread your views become ever more contradictory, tangled and you eventually disappear, spinning dizzily over the horizon into Bullshit Canyon.

Less is more old bean!!

For example, lets spin your proposition and in the cold unemotional business of a fan buying a product, a match ticket from the club, obviously the club itself have only ever acted in a cold unemotional, purely transaction based manner. Everton, and indeed no other club, obviously never seeks to tap into and exploit the emotional bond between club and fan, such as in the "Stand Together" advertising by us in pre season and the quotes on match tickets!!

Just nonsense, im unable to take you seriously.

Post 590 was ignorant, arrogant and petulant. To be honest, not for the first time its crossed my mind that you are actually just taking the piss..........like the bizarre (well, not bizarre if you want to deliberately wind people up and get your kicks out of it) recent posts where you were going on about Kenwright putting his hand down the shitter and pulling out Mars Bars every time, and your other "you the man BK" posts recently.

Its pretty sad to be honest........

Do you double as one of those ITK Football agents on Twitter Martin?!

It's simply that after their threesome with me, the girls are more than a little nervous.

(I won't go into detail but Kelly needed a couple of stitches and neither of them could sit for a week)

Has it been a good transfer window ? Well I hope so - we wont really know until a few more games into the season . Club ownership ? Well at the risk of being called nostalgic I remember the time when it was difficult to recall more than 3 or 4 of the Chairman of Top Division Clubs - now it seems they attract as much attention as the managers !!!

I am not saying that things were better in the past - Certainly not - but some things were. Most importantly I think the days when football was more of a sport than a business.

Plucky little Everton !!! Well I remember when it was common for English fans to have a dig at the Scottish League with cries of " It's only Rangers or Celtic". Since the PL started it's been dominated by 4 or 5 clubs - and England doesn't have the excuse of being a small country with few large cities.

A sugar daddy ?? Is that the solution do we think ?? Do we want our own version of Abramovic ?? It would be nice if an Evertonian loving billionaire emerged. That's a bit of a long shot. So do we want our own equivalent of Abramovic ? That is the bottom line. Plenty of pros of course - but the cons. Well what's going to happen when Abramovic wants to move on to something else? Did the guy have posters of Peter Osgood and Charlie Cooke on his bedroom wallwhen he was a kid ? Somehow I doubt it. And the question remains what will happen when he decides he has had enough. Siteh are the current financial high flyers - but for how long. Isn't there a saying - " Money easily gained is easily lost" ?

Kenwright the saviour ? I think not
Kenwright the villain of the peace ? Sorry I am not convinced on that one either.
Sitting on the fence ? I am sure I risk criticism from " both camps". Just a note of caution - be careful what you wish for. One thing I am sure of is that I don't want the "soap opera" that we have seen at some clubs e.g. QPR.

Exactly!

Consequently, without taking any care, I wish Kenwright (PROVEN dishonest and PROVEN inept) would fuck off and take his amateur hopeless lackies with him.

In fact, regarding ANY wishes, pertaining to seeing the back of this bum, I absolutely, 100%, TOTALLY refuse....EVER!..to be careful what I wish for.

I'll continue to wish (carefree and with abandon) he fucks RIGHT off.

Eugene, you don't understand the concept of risk? Consequences and probabilities that is? Definitely not I'm afraid. It's why football fans don't run football clubs.

Don't think you've give this enough thought.

You mean you accidentally ripped kelly's skirt and gave them piles?

I wish we were as passionate about the reckless way our beloved Chairman ruins this club. And I know we have had a successful transfer window but how many think that this was only because Moyes is in the last year of his contract?

How many think that it is because the TV money goes up next year and Green and Co can up the operating expenses to say £30M?

And still people ask "Do we need the Blue Union"?!?!

Your honour, the prosecution rests (and laughs it's nuts off)

Risk: You risk ridicule by contradicting yourself purely to defend your stance at all costs, by electing to ignore posts which point out those contradictions and by failing to answer valid questions put to you, yet consistently demanding "proof" to support others' posts.

Consequence: People are now ridiculing you with some even questioning if you are simply a wind-up merchant.

Probability: It will probably reach a stage where people simply ignore you as they feel you cannot be taken seriously.

Martin,I challenge you,instead of criticising others,to put up an article with your own position stated fair and square. Here are some issues you may care to address in it:

Do you believe that Bill Kenwright has been consistently honest with supporters?
Is your detached view genuine?
Do you accept that the countless complaints, over many years from supporters about the appalling PR and marketing sections of the club are true?
What,in your view,is a viable alternative to the Blue Union?
Instead of attacking those who have complaints, let's here something positive from you.

"The smaller Shareholders have already "put their money where their mouth is" and are clearly NOT troublemakers.

If the board won't communicate with them you have to be naive in the extreme to think they'd talk to anyone else."

So I'm guessing your answer to Andys original question in this thread would be a resounding no?

It's the same answer as me but for differing reasons, I believe organised supporter groups are the most powerful tools that can be used to bring about change in regimes at clubs, just take a look at where Rangers FC are currently playing, you don't really believe all those other SPL chairman would of put them there do you?

Change will only come about at the club when we have enough supporters thinking as one, spending as one and voting as one, our collective spending {or not spending} power is the means to take a gun to a gunfight, get enough people and the board will listen, they have to to survive, the trouble is, as Bobby and Dennis alluded to above, it will probably take relegation to wake up a big enough membership to actually do anything.

I hope you're right, really I do.

I'd be the last to pour cold water on anyone trying something, anything, but your comment about relegation rings truest.

Till that day Bill will continue on his omnipotent way, exactly as he's always done.

Superb...

"That's why Masons don't run football clubs."

I would post an article to put down my position but I don't know how to do it.

My views are genuine; I believe that the Everton board knows vastly more about running a football club or any business than any group of supporters who basically know very little. I believe that – given the massive financial problems at the club – they are actually doing a reasonable job to put together such a strongly performing team on the pitch. They need to increase revenue to improve things but there’s no magic wand to do that.

I genuinely don’t know if the complaints from supporters about PR and marketing are true because I’ve only heard one side of the story. I can raise an opinion of course but there are enough of them around already. PR-wise, I believe they have been very bad as they could, by better communication, put the fans’ concerns to rest. Having said that, I can understand why they refuse to speak to the BU and it may be that they feel they do communicate well via official fan representatives. The club is not going to have a discourse with the BU or any organization that, like the BU, firstly doesn’t represent the fans and secondly has an agenda to undermine them.

I don’t see an alternative to the BU because the BU is unnecessary. We need a body that represents the majority of the fans and that can discuss issues with the club in a civilized manner with a view to constructively helping solve the dreadful problems it faces. “Union”, “protest marches”, “board out”. It is 1970s Liverpool militant confrontation writ large (remember how it panned out too?) and absolutely not how modern lobbying pressure groups work. The BU is finished.

I’ll always be positive and will never “attack” people for their views; I will though always be prepared to offer an alternative view.

"Kenwright the saviour ? I think not
Kenwright the villain of the peace ? Sorry I am not convinced on that one either.
Sitting on the fence ? I am sure I risk criticism from " both camps". Just a note of caution - be careful what you wish for. One thing I am sure of is that I don't want the "soap opera" that we have seen at some clubs e.g. QPR."

I also asked the question "........A sugar daddy ?? Is that the solution do we think ?? Do we want our own version of Abramovic ??

Well Eugene you have made it perfectly clear what or who you don't want. I have no problem with that.But what is it you exactly that you do want ? Is it our own version of Abramovic ? Or other "sugar daddies" or a group of Middle Eastern/Russian benefactors as at Siteh ? I was merely pointing out that there are also dangers in wishing for that.

But the question remains Eugene - in this and other articles/posts etc you are quick to be critical. Nothing wrong with that. You have every right to your opinion.But you never seem to suggest alternatives.

So what is your alternative - and I am not saying that there is no alternative to the present Chairman/Owner/Board - but what or who exactly do you want to run Everton? How do you want the club to be run ? Like Chelsea or Man City or like Barcelona other clubs where there is a membership, who have a vote on certain issues.Or like other clubs where supporters groups have a place on the board?

"But the question remains Eugene - in this and other articles/posts etc you are quick to be critical. Nothing wrong with that. You have every right to your opinion.But you never seem to suggest alternatives"

Wrong, I am neither quick or slow to be critical (my first post on this thread was only after 20 others or so had posted and I could get a feel for things)

I respond to (certain) posts only when I see them (nb: you would agree I can't respond BEFORE I see them?).

So no quicker or slower than you or anyone else (far more chance the reality is you seeing those with an opposite point of view as being 'quick to criticise' than of this actually being the case).

You continue..

"So what is your alternative - and I am not saying that there is no alternative to the present Chairman/Owner/Board - but what or who exactly do you want to run Everton? How do you want the club to be run ? Like Chelsea or Man City or like Barcelona other clubs where there is a membership, who have a vote on certain issues.Or like other clubs where supporters groups have a place on the board?"

I have answered this before but I'll give it another go.

I do NOT expect an Abromavic to buy us and solve all our problems.

Nor do I think/expect Arabs with limitless money to step in and do the same.

My expectations are, I believe, MORE than realistic.

(I long ago 'accepted' that I'll never see Everton win a title or be I the market for the likes of Messi).

If there was 'Chairman/owner/board' in place who didn't lie to supporters, who reinstated AGMs and who had the ability/brains to hire one or two (PROVEN!) experts to look at areas like marketing, I would be a lot happier.

(hardly moaning coz we're not regularly in the Champions League Final am I?)

You may not like my answer or agree and that's fine, but don't suggest I've never offered an alternative.

By the way, you say you're 'not convinced Kenwright is the villain of the piece'.

Well all I can say to that is if you can't see it now, you never will (or rather you will ONLY when it's to late)

I remember going to matches in the early 1990's and our " souvenir" shop was a sad joke.Our marketing may not be brilliant now, but it was dire in the early 1990's.

Well I am glad that you have clarified your alternatives - I personally think that we may see Everton win another title. Football has over the years seen many so called " invincible clubs" - I remember the 70's and early 80's when Liverpool were the dominant force - not so these days. How long will the era of Chelski and co last ? In my opinion the likes of Barcelona will outlast them as major forces in Europe as they have stronger foundations - in a nutshell their success isn't totally down to " playing the transfer market. And Man City may not be able to maintain the same "pace" of spending.

(chuckle)

Not a Kenwright apologist – I think the financial problems/restrictions at Everton pre-date the Kenwright era. We haven't really been able to compete in the transfer market against the likes of Man Utd & Co for about 20 years or so now.

Have you forgotten the sale of Peter Beardsley in the summer of 1993? It was just after the final date for season ticket renewals – a coincidence?! My Dad didn't think so – I well recall him saying to me that, if he had known we were going to sell Beardsley, he wouldn't have renewed his season ticket! That was before the Kenwright era.

I am certaily NOT a Kenwright apologist – but I think it is too easy to blame one man. As I said, the likes of Carter and even John Moores have made mistakes and errors which have cost us dear.