A New Dawn For Blue-Red Relations?

There was a time after Hillsborough when there was a better atmosphere, but that has long gone. Any number of factors can be held up as explanatory variables - the general decline in civility etc which apply anywhere. More locally, the fact that they are clinging onto glories told to them by their parents whilst we dare to try to challenge the power base on Merseyside.

I mean, if we actually started winning derby matches it could really get nasty, and for that reason alone, I hope it does.

Joking aside, those of us around at the time went through it all with our red friends, family. Went to memorial services, went to funerals. I was at the other semi that day, but was actually staying at the home of a red school mate while the house was having some major refurb work done, and the whole time was quite surreal.

It's always been about giving each other grief, taking the piss. Some do it in a light hearted way, some don't - and nothing has changed since even before I was born.

I'll stand with them with pride all the way to see justice done for the 96 innocent fans that lost their lives. Nobody, no matter what team you support deserves to go to a football match and not come home. That is a matter of life and death, a far more important one than a game of football. However on football matters; I hope Sunderland leather them 5-0 and they go down this season. Dirty horrible red shite!

Nothing but sympathy for the affected families but nothing but disdain for the Redshite fans.

I trace all of the problems on Merseyside back to the changes that came about with all-seater stadiums, sadly as a consequence of Hillsborough, and the almost absolute segregation of opposing fans. Until then it wasn't at all unusual for there to be reds in all parts of GP at a derby and likewise blues at Anfield. That imposed its own good manners. That said there were always nutters who lost it. But if you were on the Kop you were usually with your mates who would call order.

It was easy to get in to either ground for most games and we would often go to Anfield when they were playing a good European team, admittedly hoping they'd get whacked, intent on winding them up on the Anfield Rd.

I even went on the Kop to watch MUFC play Arsenal when the Salford Reds had the Stadium of Nightmares closed because they couldn't behave themselves.

For me what really topped it all off was a game on Good Friday some years ago that Sky had put on at 8.00. Bank holiday and Lenten tea-totalism cast aside I was one of many thousands in a terrible state before the start of the game. The atmosphere was evil and I don't think it has ever recovered.

The most shameful experience I have ever witnessed was at a subsequent derby when Robbie Fowler went over to the Kopites on his own at the end and half-way across most of the crowd chanted "Smackhead, smackhead, ....". His head sank to his chest and he walked off looking beaten.

The next derby game when he "snorted" the 18 yard line I cheered him to the echo.

Fowler showed the sort of fu bottle that most Liverpool people like to think of themselves as possessing. The Hillsborough families, yes I know they weren't all scousers, certainly drew on that over the years and all credit to them.

Maybe a contoversial finish. I think that it would have been truly magnificent if the spokespersons for the the families could have found it in their hearts to forego the continued pursuit to name and shame the guilty people. But what do I know, none of mine died?

A chant of Merseyside might show the right level of unity and defiance.

It's bollocks - always has been and always will be.

Loads of decent people are red but as an "entity" ie en masse they are insufferable.

The Hillsborough thing is a personal tragedy exacerbated by press and police demonstrating the vilest aspects of unaccountability.

The victims and their families are all that matter, football connotations (regardless of who the club is) are incidental.

I still have all the injustices on the pitch emblazoned on my mind:
Clive Thomas, Handsen, Hutchison & Poll, Lescott, Rodwell – the list goes on. That in additon to the glory hunting so-and-so's that latched onto them. To sum up: I love Everton FC. I don't like Liverpool FC one bit.

However, my heart goes out to those families – it could have been us in Leppings Lane.

I was there in the August prior to the disaster to see us draw 2-2. Me, my brother and his mate (a glory-hunting kopite) got to the pen to the right but my Dad couldn't get out and he came out terrified. Feet not touching the floor and way too steep.

Thank God it wasn't that day – we took a good four thousand. I want us to win so much in a few weeks after last years triple-whammy. COYB.

The lies and cover-up were an insult to all of us on Merseyside.

Fully hate the reds.

Most reds didn't know those who died or were injured.

Let's shout for Merseyside (and thereby for the families) on Monday, but not for anything to do with the reds.

I'll pay my deepest respects to the poor souls who lost their lives, as I have always done.

Back to the footy,I have got family who are reds, and workmates, but they are deluded fools. Now they are on their way down the league, I will rub their noses in it at every opportunity.

You can't call that hate - I just can't stand the bastards !! Moyes had better make up for last season this year.

You ask:

"How the fuck can you HATE someone over bloody football?"

Probably depends on how deep you love your own club.

And Tarbuck.

Oh and that fuckin song.

Rivalry, dislike... I can sweep it a side; football is not a matter of life or death.

Those 96 were innocent, they were let down by the people who were there to help, and who then went on to deflect the blame on others rather than take their responsibility. The story of Heysel had nothing to do with these people, look at their photos, I challenge you not to find compassion.

Playing Z-Cars at Anfield has no such resonance.

Umpteen other things that can be done.

Hillsborough was no more about football than 9/11 was about baseball. It just happened to take place in a football stadium. It has nothing to do with blues and reds but has everything to do with Scousers and the city of Liverpool as a whole.

I'm not from the city so I can't speak on whether or not the city is divided or how divided it is but but I hope all Evertonians around the world recognize that what happened at Hillsborough transcends football rivalries. I feel for the Kopites that lost their lives because I have a connection to the city. If you are from the city, I would hope you feel even more. We are all football supporters and human beings. Those two common threads should be enough to compel us to mourn for the loss of 96 lives.

Hillsborough was bigger than football. It could have happened to any club at that time. Why not sing Abide With Me, or have a minutes silence/applause?

Not long till those who feel the need were back to generalising about an entire club's support and using the deaths at Heysel to moan about our footballing progress.

Sad.

I have thought about this a lot over my years as a Blue and have come to a view: I am not all that proud of it, but I think it's better for a person to be honest with themselves — hence I agree with everyone above who honestly fucking HATES Liverpool Football Club. [spits]

I do also hate MOST of their supporters. Not the real ones, like those who were born Red cos their dad was Red (and could actually back it up by naming the team for instance), and not those occasional mates-of-mates that could discuss footy in general from an informed perspective (rare)....

My HATE is reserved for the ranks of cowardly spineless mental midgets who CHOSE the dark side at the age of five JUST so they would feel safer and more powerful as part of the biggest gang in the playground And then enjoyed taunting and/or boring the arse off everyone else for the rest of their shitty lives. You could write a thesis on the pack mentality of these worthless gobshites: ''Show me the boy of 8 and I'll show you the man...'' type of thing.They, to me, embody all that is cringeworthy, vile and charmless about LFC.

As for the bandwagon-jumping cretins of the last 20 sky years – those rubbish I deserve pity, for their future is not glorious.

I was at Villa that horrible day, and I had mates and neighbours at Hillsborough (who made it out thankfully), so I feel for the families, and they were due an apology for the sickening treatment they got after the fact. But from my own personal experience of going away a lot with us in the 80s, I still have a hard time believing in the notion that it ''could've easily been us" – we ALWAYS behaved better than them lot.

I remember that being one of the thoughts we shared coming home from Villa after we heard. It just HAD to be them lot didn't it?

But, for me, the two things are separable – the shitty way those people were treated doesn't alter my stance on the club: I hated LFC before, I have done so since, and I always will. It would be hypocritical to mellow out of some phoney sense of empathy. I feel none for them. A red shite is a red shite - its a character flaw, or a nasty itchy disease, and possibly genetic.

And as such I feel it would be a shame and a disgrace if they played that dirge at our home. Dignified silence in support of the families of the 96? Yes. Dirge? No. I would stick my fingers in my ears and shut my eyes if I was there. Or just not go. But I have an ugly feeling it may happen and there'll be consequences.

Until that snide club and its rat-army fan-base can collectively 'walk through a storm and hold their heads up high' by accepting responsibility and apologising in a sincere fashion for the deliberate savagery perpetrated at Heysel – for example – hate will do fine for me. Even if the acid gives me an ulcer!

But I remember the day it happened and I think most people knew someone or a relative of someone who was lost on that terrible day. So yesterday I was a Liverpudlian and all thoughts of hate towards the team over the park, were put on the back burner.

I still baulk when I hear that song mind.

I've never bought the Sun since and challenge any Blue or Red that I see buying or reading it. I don't do that out of respect for the RS, I do it out of respect for the people that lost their lives.

I don't get this nasty rivalry thing I never see bother. I have mates work colleagues and family who are red and I love seeing them suffer in footballing misery, I live seeing them beat humiliated I would live them to do a Rangers. But that's just with football its just a game outside football I wish them well like everybody else

The police and the FA are to blame. What happened at Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen. It could have happened anytime, anywhere even at Villa Park. The previous year the shite played Forest again at Hillsborough in the semi-finalI ( they also beat us that year at Goodison in the 5thRound).

I was at Villa Park that day in the North Stand. When we went in we were in line with the corner flag on the left hand side but come 3 o'clock we had be pushed to behind the goal were we ended up watching the game. Not all but a lot of football fans all over the country go to big games with no tickets in the hope of getting in. They go with their mates and some like to have a drink before the game. It is traditional fans behaviour but to go to a match and not come home.

Justice finally for the families who lost loved ones I applaud but that has nothing to do with football or any other sporting rivalry. I did not want the 89 Final to be played but it was the wishes of the families which I respect but as an Evertonian we were always onto a loser. If we had won, do we celebrate knowing 96 fans died. Can you imagine the reaction of the redshite fans if we had won and even dared to celebrate. From a football point of view we were even denyed the right to celebrate our semi final win and getting to Wembley.

With the Newcastle match live we have the whole world watching and what a fitting tribute it would be to chant "Merseyside" to show our support for the release of the Hillsborough files as it affected not just Liverpool and Everton fans but all citizens of the city.

'I'll sing you a song and it won't take long
All coppers are bastards
I'll sing you another as short as the other
All coppers are bastards'

I guess both sides could join in with that.

A dignified PA announcement at the start - "EFC welcomes the recent report and will continue to support ...." is all that is required.

As for the more general point of some kind of new beginning, like a mutually beneficial ground share scheme or some such fantasy - I will believe it the day that LFC does EFC any kind of favour, like beating a relegation 'rival'. They simply wanted us to disappear.

ps - if we want a song from Carousel, what's wrong with "This sure is a good clam bake"? And don't forget that the Shankly Gates are named after a man they banned from their ground.

1. Hating LFC is fine, I do and it had nothing to do with that terrible day
2. Total respect for the dead and their families and the incredible resilience they have demonstrated
3. Contempt for associated police and establishment
4. But never ever that song at Goodison

I do not think we need to demonstrate solidarity, it has never been in question

Hillsborough was / is about the individual supporter, quite simple it's Family...our kid might be a total arsehole but if you fuck with him you fuck with me.

With the Anfield XI, the total collective support, the sky bias, the whole RS thing, what you get is what it says on the tin...RS.

It didn't used to be like this, but it is now and you can never go back, the outside forces won't allow it.

"How depressing."

PS: COYB!

"The babys not yours", was funny and still is...."What's that coming over you bird? Is it a gangster", just as funny.

Maybe people who are disgusted by it should note that the fuckers had a go at Carsley's and Neville's disabled kids? Two wrongs don't make a right, but they aren't innocent in this.

Theses are also the same fuckers who chant Munich at Man U.

Hate them all....as an entity, individually some of my best mates are redshites

When we play Spurs there are still those who hiss as they have for years as a reference to the association of Jews to Spurs all with a meaning of the sound of the gas chambers.

All of this kind of chanting makes me despair for our society.

I detest YNWA - it is their anthem and I don't want to hear it, ever. But if it is played and sung at the derby I will stay silent.
I would prefer a concerted chant by all of "Justice for the 96" not that "Merseyside" drivel which is meaningless.

The justice chant is about our people, our neighbours, our families, our mates, our colleagues - it is about human decency and about 96 people who did'nt come home after going to watch their team at a game of football. Innocent all 96 of them and it is about the disgusting treatment of the families they left behind.

As has been said by others it could have been us - our fans that day.

There comes a time to stop the disgusting unacceptable chants - that time is now. All of them - why don't we stop first - someone has to.

Even now their Manager instead of dignified silence remembers the day as if it was yesterday living in Northern Ireland as a 16 year old. That is what makes me feel utter contempt for a lot of Redshite supporters.
As a group they have never had and will never have any class.

Never to Blame always the victims.
Magnanimous in victory even worse when they get beat, and yes try and talk football to a kopite and try and not to hate them.
Arseholes to a man

I wouldn't judge anyone who chants it, as I've been there and done it myself. But I'd say on the whole it's only really immature kids who do so. They'll grow out of it; I did!

By the way are you the Dave Lynch who went to Salford Uni in the 70s?

Best Idea Yet, should let EFC know this.
Couldn't bear that song played at GP.

Greg, I'm not particularly bothered about what Man Utd fans sing, I'm only bothered about EFC and, clearly, the feelings of the families of the dead Hillsborough supporters. If Man Utd fans choose to regard it as a Hillsborough chant then it is to their discredit, not ours. WE all know what it's about. And I, personally, think it's to OUR discredit that we stoop as low as the RS fans with their abuse of Neville's family, and Munich and others, and chant that awful "Murderers" rubbish.

As for YNWA at Goodison on Monday. It is only a song, and one that most people would enjoy singing to show solidarity / comradeship / togetherness if it hadn't been appropriated by the RS. I am astounded that people can't for a matter of minutes either stand quietly or join in to show that we ARE better than them.

Sung with enough gusto it may send the message to them that the song doesn't just apply to them and it certainly doesn't just belong to them. Imagine the twinge of embarassment they would get every time they sang it in future knowing that WE owned it for a brief period of time to show genuine compassion for others (as expressed in the words) and the utter rejection of Shankly's famous quote that football is more important than life and death.

What are people afraid of? That everyone is going to think we suddenly support that shower of shit! I think most observers would actually be impressed that we are putting aside our animosity and disdain to show we support those who lost loved ones at Hillsborough.

That said, I am not on some sort of crusade; just worried how petty and pathetic our club may look if they do decide to play YNWA on Monday. From what is posted here, best to hope for stoney silence.

And cut it off half-way though like they did with Z-Cars at Anfield after the Rhys Jones game.......

I'm aware that it wasn't written for them, I am also aware that Southampton and even UTD sang that song when it first entered the football domain, but it IS associated with them almost exclusively and for that reason alone I want nothing to do with it. And if you don't see that......
I wouldn't join in any more than you'd wear a Liverpool shirt...I mean, it wouldn't make you a Liverpool supporter, would it?
I think our club would look anything BUT petty and pathetic if they screened the names of the deceased and encouraged a minutes applause, indeed, it wouldn't need to encourage it.

I always hated that Shankly quote and thought that it's irrelevance and inconsequence perfectly summed up what was wrong with their supporters' attitude. Or are there actually people who think that football IS that important; that it transcends all other aspects of humanity?

As far as I am aware the choice of what happens on Monday hasn't been handed over to TW to take a vote on. Therefore, I remain concerned that the club may choose to play YNWA. If it is met with anything but a positive response (either in terms of joining in or keeping silent) then you can be assured that people watching around the world will form a pretty bad opinion of some fans of our club. As has been so well demonstrated during various discussions on this site over the last few days, it is then a very small step from SOME Evertonians to ALL Evertonians in peoples minds.

It is because of my regard for my club, that I want it to be seen in a positive light by everyone, and I am prepared to do something as inconsequential as singing a song to make sure that happens.

Why are people so obsessed with personal image and what other people may (negatively) assume about them? I don't choose to wear their shirt but I could for a short while if I thought the 'cause' it supported was worthwhile. It that also reflected well on the club I do actually support, then so much the better.

It would be interesting if our fans appropriated YNWA for themselves, as RS have done, by starting to sing it at every match! Now that would rile them. Well, maybe not - not really serious (but it would f*ing nark them!).

YNWA - 2 mins out of a lifetime...

Let's be clear, if the song was sung, it would be for the 96 and their families. The 'them' doesn't come into it.

I've supported Everton with a passion for as long as I can remember. I've also grown up surrounded by Red friends and family with whom I share a deep rivalry, but towards whom I feel not an ounce of ill-will. Yes, there are idiots in LFC's ranks, but I say that as someone who, as a kid, sat horrified as a scummy minority of our lot chanted racist abuse at every black player who came to Goodison. More recently, I've sat as fathers with young children present have shouted abuse about Steven Gerrard's offspring. No club's fans have a monopoly on virtue or vice.

As for YNWA, there were no doubt some idiots at Anfield who objected to Z-Cars being played there a few years back. They were wrong as many on here are, likewise, wrong.

JFT96

People entitled to their own feelings / views though, so if it a step too far for loyal Blues I hope one of the less controversial options is chosen (if any are).

Antony #638
your comparison to Irish or German jokes does you no credit - is that put in a patronising enough way for you to understand. Did you pay any attention to any subject at your school? History maybe - thought not.

I am sure that it was played before the match and was met with a respectful silence.

It was 0-0

Reminds me of a taxi driver once with an Everton tattoo on his arm who said he hadn't spoken to his brother for five years cause he was a Red. Desperately sad.

Not sure I would want YNWA played though, I think there are better ways of showing solidarity that are less likely to reflect badly on us. Maybe the players could wear armbands or have something written on their shirts, or the club could have had special scarves made with a message of support on.

Football most definitely isn't more important than life or death.

Si, You seem an argumentative little git tonight, but I say this with no offence intended. I blame the Pinot Noir....

"So if you were at a funeral or service for someone and that song was chosen (for whatever reason) you couldn't bring yourself to sing it "

Yes, when I was at a funeral, of my old apprentice, taken far too soon, I didn't sing it. No-one did. But I stood there, looking at my feet thinking,"You little bugger!" and imagining him laughing his cock off at us Bluenoses having to listen to it as his coffin went by. Emotional in the extreme but with his humour, never the less.

Like many on here I have close associations with the Red side, (a brother, every family has a black sheep) and used to appreciate the banter, particularly when they were in the old 2nd div and I'd go to Anfield some weeks, when we were away, with my mates (did you?) and I regret the fact that a bitterness has enveloped our relationship at street level with them.

However, I too want our club to be seen in a positive light which is why I would choose to remain silent but respectfull if that dirge is played. But I can't see any reason why it should. You can, to paraphrase a former PM, sing if you want to, but this guy's not for singing.

In fact, you can sit with little your Standard Charters shirt on and knock one off to the photo of Ian Rush in your left hand for all I care. But let us choose to show our respect in a way that we feel fitting.

Obsessed with personal image? Er....probably not. Are you?

Good post.

You're making it up now, it's Heysel.

I suggested belting it out as an alternative to silence (if it is played on Monday) to show that the words and meanings of the song are universal (and also to drown out the minority of morons who might be present), but if people think that is too much like paying homage to the RS then so be it.

I don't see it that way because I don't define myself by the small percentage of who I am that the general public will ever get to see. To me, it IS just a song unless it is sung by them in support of their team. Likewise it IS just a manky red shirt - perhaps suitable for doing some horrible, filthy work that you wouldn't waste other clothing on - unless it is worn by one of them. People's intentions give things meanings that they don't have on their own. I honestly believe that so what someone may assume simply by looking at me really doesn't bother me.

My Dad was a sportsman (any and all) and a sports fan (he would watch anything that was genuine quality) without any declared allegiance (except a jokey one to Accrington Stanley) and when my brothers and I were kids we would go to see whichever team was playing at home on Boxing Day. Given a free choice I showed taste and discernment, whilst my brothers succumbed to the superficial attractions of the 'Dark Side' - which is why my younger brother was at Hillsborough on that day. Have many mates who share my brothers' 'affliction' and others who show no sign of brain damage. They are all decent people anyone could trust and rely on. Have done the 'you come and see us and I'll go and watch your lot' stuff with mates years ago - mission unsuccessful for both parties.

Oh, and I am a mellow drunk, so blame it on a lack of Pinot Noir. Trying to right that wrong with some single malt(s) as I type! :)

I am sure that Goodison Park is quite simply capable of a minute's silence. And even the Toon will appreciate that.

ps - Heysel and Hillsborough are, and always have been, entirely separate. Hillsborough could have happened to the supporters of any team. Heysel?

Im not saying we should play YNWA on Monday or we shouldnt we should mark what has transpired over 23 years and show our support for the people who campaigned for the truth.

We did actually play YNWA at Goodison when we drew 0-0 which was the first game they played after the Hboro. My recollection of the moment was that many Blues didnt or couldnt sing it but did totally respect it by being silent. 23 years on it is the same issue we should show some respect for those who have suffered.

You're talking bollocks, Paul,it has ALWAYS been Heysel. Never Hillsborough.

If the opinions expressed here are anything to go by I fear we as a set of football fans are going to leave our own reputation in tatters come Monday night. To put it in very simple terms it's time some of you fucking grew up!!!

And if you think it's just 14 and 15yr olds who spout all the crap about Gerrard's kids and "murderers" then maybe you need to look a little closer next time you hear it.

I think a one-minute chant of "Just-ice for the Ninety Six" to the Duncan song would be relevant and correct

If the club decide to play the dirge instead, I'll bow my head and keep shtum

He was a staunch blue, called his dog Kendall and everything; what a relief it was to him when that song engineered by the group he just left became the anthem of the enemy.

Imo, anywhere but Goodison; I can`t even listen to it. How about Ferry 'cross the Mersey? JAS.

What exactly is so funny about that disgraceful 'the babys not yours' song?

Singing about a rival players children is even worse than the tedious 'murderers' stuff.

Grow the fuck up..

Heysel, and the unfair punishment Everton suffered because of it, makes me angry, but the 39 people who died suffered a far greater injustice than we did, so, as others have said, I don't think we should use their deaths to score a cheap point anyway.

Just for the record, I have chanted "Murderers" and never will. Prior to this thread the thought that it was about Hillsborough had never entered my head.

Si.

Go easy on the whisky.

Just for the record, I have never chanted "Murderers" and never will. Prior to this thread the thought that it was about Hillsborough had never entered my head.

Si.

Go easy on the whisky.

They played Z-Cars a few years ago to show that they were behind us and I feel that this would return the favour.

There will be Blues in the stadium tomorrow who lost friends and family at Hillsborough. The tragedy affected the entire city, but all of those that lost their lives would have wanted this song played. It's them we should be remembering!

Does't make me like LFC any more, though. I hope they finish in the bottom half this year!

I'll be at the derby and I hope and expect the dust to have settled a little by then.

We're by and large a club with class, we're also the club with the closest affinity with LFC over Hillsborough due to the amount of Evertonians personally affected by the tragedy.

Im sure the club will do what is appropriate and measured, and am certain the vast majority of Evertonians will show due respect when that the time comes. Once the whistle goes it'll be a football match but there will be a gesture beforehand which we will, and should, show due respect.

There's no need to play YNWA before tonight's game as it's not the anniversary of that awful, awful day at Hillsborough it's just a Premier League match against Newcastle.

When the time comes to do something, we should ALL remember what it's about, and that's something that transcends football rivalry.

With regard to the original post, I think the "new dawn" will be short-lived and derby rivalry will be just as vitriolic as ever when it comes around.

Quite simply I find some of the comments on here utterly bewildering. "If the opinions expressed here are anything to go by I fear we as a set of football fans are going to leave our own reputation in tatters come Monday night. To put it in very simple terms it's time some of you fucking grew up!!! And if you think it's just 14 and 15yr olds who spout all the crap about Gerrard's kids and "murderers" then maybe you need to look a little closer next time you hear it. "

And here's the good news... We did our reputation a power of good last night by the club's presentation of the Hillsborough tribute and the response of the fans there. I wasn't there but I found watching it very, very moving indeed.

I've trawled a few LFC fans websites since last night, and there's a huge wave of respect and appreciation from Reds to Blues because of last night. Against all the odds, I still hope it brings us closer together. Over and out on this subject.