Bad Officiating — Premier League Response

'I've read three lines and see we have another email from an irate fan over refereeing incompetence. I'll do the usual. Select template response number 457, hit CTRL+C, now CTRL+V, click send. Job done'.

Fair play on venting there Andy, but you could have done more a service were you to use this match to support goal line tech. Then again you may be against it.

The FA reply sounds like it was written by Sir Humphrey from Yes Minister.

I really do think the standard of referee's has dropped through the floor. Last season the referee's at Goodison were terrible, sometimes for both sides but half the time just against us and I don't think thats just me being bitter.

That was some reply from some first class bullshitter... why can't individual incidents be discussed? It's not a criminal case that is coming to court?

To bastardise Oscar Wilde ...to miss one [goal] is unfortunate, to miss two is downright effin incompetent.

The so called professional referee is an utter disgrace, more often than not every season sees some howlers up and down the land, all of this despite the ref on the pitch paid very handsomely and supposedly a "professional" his assistants equally as reputedly "professionally trained" plus a n other professional referee watching the game from the stands all connected via radio headsets. When you add to this so called layer of "professionally trained" referees the amount of cameras at most grounds and the instant availability of digitally recorded media on hand the inability to perform their duty is nothing more than a sham. The excuses for such shite performances is already on thin ice, how far beneath the waves will they have to be to run out of them completely?

They say these decisions even themselves out. I remember a few years ago, and despite having two of the most fouled players Andy Johnson and Arteta, we went the whole season without a penalty. On the other hand Liverpool were gave two penalties against us in one match. Despite the refereeing association agreeing with us, it did nothing. We seem to get a bad response when it comes to officiating. There must be some underlining reason, which I cant put my finger on. We seem to have the most honest players in the league, who get up once fouled, don't crawl on the floor like they been shot, and don't wave imaginary cards around. Maybe that is our downfall. We make it easy for the referee to make decisions.

Simon

I think you could be onto something there. I really do think we get a rough deal from ref's compared to other teams and maybe its cos we're too nice. You never seeing Everton players getting into a ref's face like Utd do when they don't get what they want. I like the way our players behave and don't want us to turn into a team of pricks and cheats but it shows that by showing the ref 'respect' (which the F.A keep banging on about) gets you no where.

I'm going to speak up for the linesman,though some of you may not like it. I thought they were both incredibly tough calls to make.
The first one,the defender stepped up as Fellaini ran through. As this happened,the linesman has to have one eye on Pienaar who is threading it through from the edge of the box. It is nigh on impossible to watch when & where the ball is being passed AND along the line at the same time for off side when it is done as quickly as it was the other night.
For the second one, the linesman was looking through the post and a couple of bodies,& the ball was cleared in a fraction of a second after crossing the line. Oh,and he was also 40 yards away.
It doesn't matter how much training you give refs,how much you pay them,whether they are professional or not. Without the technology,they will always get some of these decisions wrong. The long and short of it is that we need goal line technology. This wouldn't have done anything for Fellaini's goal,but at least Vic's would have stood. It cannot be right that a worldwide audience knows within seconds that a goal should have stood,but the ref cannot use the same technology. The most important man in terms of making the decision is not given the same tools as the average spectator.

By the way Andy,I don't know how old you are,but asking to make the linesman apologise, and also that he never officiates an Everton game again, seems a bit childish and way over the top to me. Should we do that for every official that gives a decision against us?
Ask for the technology by all means, but while the officials are human,& unassisted by technology,there will always be human error.

Danny the refs assistants are supposedly trained hence the bollocks from the FA about them being trained and on a fat wedge to do their jobs to watch the forward player and the source of a forward pass to them thus providing an ability to flag offside or not. I personally wouldn't give a rats arse if they are stood at the corner flag when also doing their job to see if a ball crosses the line or not at which point they are again paid a fucking healthy wad to keep their supposed trained eyes on the ball in play and how it gets where it gets to.

I'm not about to give them any benefit of the doubt as the whingeing bastards created themselves a proper cushy number with an accompanying pay rise claiming to be trained pros and keep their monopoly they now have officiating the EPL. If they claim they can't and need goal line technology or those extra numpties that appeared and disappeared just as quickly (the goal line linesman/refs assistants then they are equally accepting their professional training isn't worth jack shit or the healthy self imposed pay rise they got.

Dear Andy,

We're not interested in what you think, nor do we care. Go away. Shoo!

Supporter Services.

Danny Broderick,

Spot on. I posted a similar comment after the match about the speed of those two passages of play...

It's only natural that we take it out on them but I would expect any rational fan looking at it objectively in the cold light of day to realise it, they were easy mistakes to make.

Some of the talk about conspiracy, was frankly embarrassing.

Angry man Gavin is back.
What's all this about them being 'whingeing bastards'? Or 'claiming they can no longer do their jobs'?
We are talking about human beings here,being asked to make perfect decisions every time from a great big distance a lot of the time,with no benefit of technology. And not just that,they have tv cameras pointing out their mistakes. They are in an impossible position.
Imagine having to judge the 100M with no 2nd viewing,no slow motion replay - this is what these guys are being asked to do every week. Even tennis is more advanced for fuck's sake.

rugby league takes about 20 seconds using the same technolgy available to premier league football to confirm if a try/score is valid or not.It is beyond comprehension why we are still having to tolerate the nonsense we saw on Monday

Danny you didnt bother your arse to read the justification at the time for the FA to carve out a cushy number giving the referee fraternity a healthy five figure salary plus expenses just to officiate EPL games under the umbrella of having created a professional training program each and every last one of them would be trained to attaining the highest standards blah blah and as a nice perk they earn another round of cash to officiate cup games on top of their salary separate of the healthy one they have self appointed.

Angry man Danny, is that the best you got? I see the so called self labelling those crooked fuckers at the FA gave themselves with the carve up of a monopoly on providing referees for games and a track record of dodgy decisions since the Sky reinvented cash cow came along, yeah really angry that such an obvious piss take is perpetuated under some mythical human error in spite of claiming a high ground of the highest professional standards attainable when they created those standards themselves. As Ken has pointed out and alluded to in my post the matches have numerous angles all on high quality digital media and four sets of FA salaried watching too and you still get fuck ups, the case for the prosecutions sits, the professional training either isn't good enough thus a sham or isn't worthy and requires technology to assist, in either case its a piss take which is being perpetuated.

Well tried Andy, but I'm afraid Nick is right and you were fobbed off with a text that was probably 'written' (constructed is better term) some years ago.

Something very insidious about referees and their 'assistants' is that there is a hierarchy in the trade - the FA's response said as much. And you don't climb a hierarchy by rocking the boat, you go along with your seniors. For some reason, best known within the ranks of the blackshirts, Mr D C Richards thought he was getting brownie points on Monday night - not swayed by the crowd, resolute, determined, that kind of stuff perhaps.

"English style refereeing" as it says in the FA's response (which actually doesn't qualify as a reply). And if he's caused a minor embarrassment, they don't care. Because they hold all the cards, until the day that FIFA, UEFA and sweet FA are usurped.

The Barcelona - Moscow Spartak game tonight was reffed by Milorad Mazic from Serbia. This is a bit like having a game between Greece and Turkey reffed by a Cypriot from Nicosia. How can they do this? And what happened on the field bore out the danger of the scenario. The 'Russians' 'tackled' like Norman Hunter. Ee it took you back. The ref, for all his yellow cards and finger wagging, must have been gutted when Messi scored Barca's third. Or fourth - a goal chalked off for a dodgy offside flag gave heart to the away side.

Sound familiar?

Danny -sorry pal. If they are in 'an impossible position' why don't they do something about it? Resign, perhaps. Demand technology to aid them? Rock the boat.

As I said, that's not the way to climb the ladder.

Deary me Gavin,you need to learn how to chill out mate. Life's too short.
I have heard referees interviewed,& read articles, & I believe they all want the technology brought in as well. I suspect the FA would probably want it too,but without the go ahead from the top, i.e. FIFA, we can't just break ranks and start using it.
It will come,but even then the officials will have to make a judgement call. You might agree with it or you might not, but it is what it is - there will never be perfection where interpretation is involved,like in offside decisions. It doesn't matter how much you pay them or how often they train etc, they'll always get some right and get some wrong. The best we can hope for is goal line technology, with a chip in the ball that goes off when it crosses the goal line.

Quite simply, the ref and linesman got at least two decisions completely wrong. The goal that never was was much easier to call with the linesman right on the corner flag as it went in.

The Fellaini offside (not offside) goal was almost identical to Juve's 2nd goal today against Chelsea. Inch perfect through ball and in!

The linesman there, and the ref gave a goal.

As usual we have the shite officials!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1340576-chelsea-vs-juventus-score-highlights-and-grades

No need for new technology. We already have video and the fourth official. Just take the fourth official away from the touchline to a private area, as soon as he see's its a goal, a quick word in the refs ear and job done. Whats hard about that!

As Ken said it works well in Rugby League, even adds to the tension of the game sometimes, although when it works against you .......

Keith,
Refs have always got decisions wrong - fact. Did that ball really cross the line when England won the World Cup in 66? What has changed is that the TV coverage is so good now that it shows whether a ref got it right or wrong almost instantly. Also,everyone's a victim now - every set of fans feels hard done by.
In days gone by,fans had to accept the refs decision - they didn't have slow motion replays and lines being drawn across the pitch to highlight any mistakes. Obviously,this is the way the world has gone.
In future,I'm sure we will have the technology,but even then there will always be errors,because what you think is a yellow card offence, Gavin would probably give a red for etc.

By the way, I am all for technology. The managers could have two appeals per match,or something like that,for major decisions, and the goal line technology is a must.

But it seems to me that everyone is screaming for perfection when it comes to refereeing decisions,yet perfection doesn't exist. There will always be one set of fans who believe the ref has messed up in any situation where a judgement has to be made.

I'm not aa Moyes basher but in my opinion he shows far too much decorum in the post match interviews when faced with questions regarding the outright incompetence of the officials. He needs to learn a few tips from his old mate whiskey nose and start frothing at the mouth, spittle flying and chastising the reporter about how United had been done and the effect of having two points stolen from them.

Danny #785 - I was just hoping that the guy would be man enough to admit he had made two big mistakes and apologise, rather than hide behind the "it's a difficult job and we all make mistakes" excuse. In hindsight the call for him never to officiate in another Everton fixture was a bit too far but I think my frustration ran away with me!

Danny

The appointment of Gottried Dienst - from Switzerland, but not of French, Italian or Romansch origin I guess - as the the ref for a world cup final between England an West Germany might cause comment these days, but apparently not then. He was simply 'the best ref in the world', a tag later applied to Pierluigi Collina. However, all seemed fairly clear until 'that' decision.

The 'Russian' linesman, Tofik Bakhramov, was from Azerbaijan, part of the USSR. I have no idea if he had political sympathies, but about 25 years previously, well in his lifetime, Hitler's Reich had invaded the USSR leading to the death of an estimated 10million 'Russians'. I wonder what passed through his mind when asked to adjudicate on that decision. What would you have done?

They got it wrong then, they get it wrong now. Why haven't things changed? Why hasn't it been sorted out? You seem to blame FIFA. Many believe it to be a corrupt organisation.

Sorry, its me again. But the UEFA Cup 'experiment' of having two extra officials standing on the goal lines. Does anyone know, and is there any way of finding out, if this ever led to a referee's decision - ever?

What seemed very odd to me was that they were placed on the same side of the pitch as the 'assistant' running the line. So, for example, had Mr D C Richard's view been impeded by one of these people he might have been able to say he honestly didn't know if the ball had crossed the line or not.

In any case, all these would-be aspiring top referees were never going to do anything to upset their route to the top. Don't rock the boat - we're all in this together.

Me again, last time I promise, unless someone questions my integrity, but back to the OP.

Andy - I feel fairly confident that something you have asked for will come about anyway. Just like Clattenberg, it is very unlikely that the FA will send Mr D C Richard to Goodison again. Its possible that we may encounter him at away games.

It would be nice to think that in ten years or so his cherished ambition of reffing a Wembley Cup Final will be dashed by some badge whispering in his ear, 'No son, remember those shite decisions you gave at Goodison in 2012? They never forget you know'.

Andy,

I'm guessing you didn't really expect a reply. Or one of any substance! Rather you wanted to vent, rightly so, and I trust you find the process therapeutic?

I'm all for firing off broadsides regardless.

Keep on taking any chance to put the so called authorities on the spot whenever they are at fault!

Perhaps we can agree that Andy's original piece, while well-intended and born out of frustration, goes just a little bit over the top?

In the interest of fairness, and surely we Blue fans are nothing if not fair, should we expect to see a similar letter written the next time we are the beneficiary of a dodgy officiating decision? Or a letter of congratulation when the officials get a difficult decision correct?

I won't hold my breath.

This is all a bit rabid isn't it? Some bloke made a couple of bad calls on Monday, but they were both very close calls and happened very quick.

The offside decision: Fellaini's top half is actually closer to their goal than the defender's when the ball was played. Because of the angle of his body the defender's foot is a couple of foot further back and playing Felli onside. The exact moment Pienaar passes is obscured as well. Oh yeah, piss easy decision that one; how dare someone get it wrong!

Anichebe's goal; well, that must have been all of a couple of inches over the line (all of it having to be) when it bounced off the defender's boot and shot back into play a few milliseconds later.

Why should the assistant ref have to publicly admit to being wrong when we already know he was? Some sort of ritual public humiliation that doesn't change anything. Apologise? For what? Unless someone has proof otherwise he made two unfortunate but genuine mistakes. There is no reason for anyone to have to come grovelling for forgiveness, for all anyone on here knows the bloke may be really upset about it anyway.

High wages and training aren't going to make anyone infallible – just look at the players if you want proof of that. All that the training teaches them is the rules of the game and the best positions to take to get the best view they can. It doesn't guarantee anything, much as that may nark us when it goes against our team.

Football officials are not even given the instruction to give the attacking team the benefit of the doubt, so they have to be one hundred percent sure to give a goal.

Only appropriate technology will resolve these issues. Until it is in place we are going to have to accept incidents like these on a occasional basis. Let's man-up and look forward, instead of poring over something that is already history.

Word for word the excat same respose I got from them when complaining about the Twattenberg Derby, it seems they haven't altered their standard fob-off response.

By the way, Andy, what was the email address you used to contact them? I wanted to complain about something last season and gave up trying to find their contact details on their website.

Si,

Not rabid from where I'm sitting. Accurate observations on some very poor officiating, yet again.

I'm afraid these poor decisions do not even themselves out over the course of a season. Certainly not where Everton is concerned.

I doubt that the addition of appropriate technology will resolve the problem. It will help, but ultimately we need well trained officials working as a cohesive unit, with the assistants empowered to make a decision!

I don't expect the referee is going to spot everything, but the assistants seem to be totally inept, or paralysed, as far as making decisions they should be able to make from their vantage point.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, take a look at Juve's 2nd goal against Chelsea... almost identical to the Fellaini offside goal. No hesitation from the officials... goal.

I am going a different route - and am just going to blame Anichebe for not burying a sitter of a header and taking the responsibility away from the incompotent linesman.

If the linesman had let both goals stand and proved that neither should have counted he would have been savaged by the media even worse than he has been. His chance of progressing up the lines-person's ladder would have been shot to pieces.

Also NFC fans would have found out where he lived and paid him a visit....

So let's move on, it's all over now...

On the Fellaini goal, that was a tough one for the linesman. Someone mentioned on another thread, when you watch the replays, Fellaini is leaning forward towards goal and the defender is leaning the other way, it makes Fellaini look offside. When they showed it again on Sky and put the line accross, Fellaini's feet are in line with the defenders, so he's onside. The linesman see's it in real time and has to make a split-second decision, we have the luxury of the replays from Sky and all their gadgets.

Funnily enough Paul, that was my initial reaction, why didn't the useless lump just bury the fucker?

I am also with Gavin on this one too, these feckers are getting paid handsomely to do their jobs, yes it is difficult but they are getting paid a lot more than the man on the street to do it, so their skill shouldn't be in question.

The players get paid thousands a week to play footy, they are worlds away from my skill set (and dodgy knee and ankle) and get paid well because of it. Why are the linos getting paid so much when so many of them can't even get the basics right?

That fecker in the middle had to look at his lino to give a foul in the second half — and he was closer than the lino to the incident.... In my best Kamara style — "Unbelievable, Jeff!!!!"

I agree that they were two very close calls and even despite them going against us, we were still in a position to win the match, but blew it.

But, in the bigger picture, those two very close calls, if they happen in a to Man United in a game, do they get ruled 'no goal'? I doubt it.

I'm with Andy and Si on this one. The Fellaini decision was incredibly difficult. By my reckoning, Fellaini was played onside by the defenders leg which was extended back towards the goal. Fellaini's body was ahead of the defender's body. That's before we mention the fact that they were travelling in opposite directions.

I made the comment on another thread that of all the players and officials that took part on Monday, the linesman didn't perform as badly as some. Will Phil Neville be fined or disciplined for his inability to pass the ball?

The Anichibe one wasn't as difficult but it still only just crossed the line and only did so for a split second. I'd be more disappointed with that one. The goal-line technology will come in and hopefully it'll be the first step.

It shouldn't stop there and I don't agree with this x number of times a team can query a decision. The fourth official should be put upstairs. If the linesman makes a call such as Fellaini's then he should be allowed to say that he's not 100% certain and that he wants the fourth official to double check, as the rugby referees do.

The one problem I see with this is if, for example, Fellaini sees the flag and stops rather than put the the ball in the net. Play to the whistle, I guess.

I don't agree with this love in of officials.

Neither goal was marginal.

Felli was NOT offside and Anichebe's header was at least a foot over the line.

If it was Man Utd or the RS do you think both goals would have been disallowed? Not on your life.

We should be called the "Gentlemen's club" not the People's club.

"Oh dear, the decision was not correct, chaps! Oh well, let's play on – the poor officials have a tough time you know".

Utter trollop. As someone said, it takes seconds for the fourth (or even fifth if we created a special role) official to call important decisions like goal-line or penalty incidents.

Jay, I agree with your last paragraph but these rules aren't in place.

Nobody suggested that Fellaini was offside so why the need to state the obvious? I'm relying on memory but not for one second do I believe that ball was a foot over the line, closer to an inch I would guess and if you can't describe Fellaini as being marginally onside I don't know when you can.

It was not just the disallowed goals that they got wrong, they gave every 50-50 tackle to them. The officials were a disgrace. I am convinced they have something against us — how many times do you come out of the ground not talking about the football but the inept officials???

On the Sky commentary it was mentioned shortly after the Anichebe "goal" that the referee should have played advantage following the Pienaar "foul". Had he done so it would almost certainly have led to Newcastle taking the lead. The sense of outrage would have been even greater.

What was said on Sky was that he stopped play for the free kick as if he thought something was not right (or words to that effect). In that case why didn't he take a moment to talk to the linesman. It would have given him some breathing space and may, however unlikely but just possibly, have led to the goal being awarded.

Sorry Jay but this isn't a live in and you're just plain wrong on both counts. Fella's was marginal and Anichebe's was nowhere near a foot over the line. Both were goals - but both understandable errors.

2 points:

1. Time to give refs and linesmen the assistance it's obvious they need.

2. If you dominate games, waste good chances, and rely on the finest of margins for a win then you'll be disappointed from time to time.

Ernie it may not have been a foot over the line but look at the pics on the Daily Bigot's website the "the post was in his way argument is bollocks as the ball was past the post and thus in line of sight as the goal post is the only thing on line with the corner flag

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2204751/David-Moyes-fumes-Everton-disallowed-goals.html

Your second point is an old argument I follow, its no good complaining about missed chances and playing to the whistle the basics are score more goals than your opponents then it doesnt matter

Ernie, what about relying on the paid professionals to be able to do their job.....you know......like....ermm....professionally?

Just a thought......could this sort of controversy be solved if this ludicrous offside rule was done away with altogether?

Just a thought... would it not put an end to this kind of controversy if this currently ludicrous offside rule and the pathetic attempt by incompetent officials to interpret it be solved if the damn rule was simply abolished?

Anichebe's goal - the 'clearing' player was close to having his head on the net.

Paid officials - Clive Thomas, Mark Clattenberg. Take me on anyone?

They might not be paid Keith but IMO there is an obvious bias.

Jones has never given us anything and the other night gave every decision that he could Newcastle's way.

Referees should be subject to a thorough background check every season to ensure that their allegiances (and they must all have one otherwise why would they be interested in football) have no bearing on the two teams they are due to referee.

There is no question in my mind that Man U and the RS get an unfair proportion of decisions in their favour.

Well it didn't do them much good last season Jay. Man U lost the league,and Liverpool finished 7th.

Jay - although you got me wrong there, we are saying the same thing. A football ref saying he is neutral is just as much a lie as that shit Alan Green pretending he supports Stockport County (they must be horrified - wonder if he's ever been?) when he is RS down to his fundamental.

But its not a problem of partisanship. Hierarchies like the FA have a culture which dictates how their members behave.

Rule 1 - you never rock the boat

Rule 2 - you never rock the boat

Rule 3 - you never rock the boat

Rule 4 - even under torture, you never say you have been told this.

Cushy position, badge, cudos, memories and who knows, possibly a shed-load of money (Collina) may come your way if ... see Rule 1.

They let Leeds get away with what would now be classed as GBH because they all agreed that Revie's team was 'hard but fair'. Bollocks, as Brian Clough pointed out when he made them pay their own fines.

Liverpool FC got away with close to everything while they were successful. They're feeling aggrieved now because they're not a 'top' team. That's how a closed shop like the FA (and their refs) works. A consensus. We all support each other's decisions - right or wrong. Don't rock the boat.

Do I have to point out to anyone that this has been shown to be the way the police have worked in various high profile cases? The FA in this respect are no different.

Tell you what Danny - MU didn't fail to win the league because of the penalties awarded against them or perfectly good goals being disallowed.

As for the RS, they have been in decline for years. They get very little from refs these days. That's how the consensus works. In the old days, every time they hit the woodwork a goal would have been awarded. But nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

They're human and even in the sports where the tech is used - Rugby, Tennis and Cricket -decisions are still debatable.

Annoying it might be but it'll never change.

Shane 875 - I seem to recall receiving something refs get issued stating that offside is determined by a players torso - NOT by their arms and/or legs, so regarding the Fellaini goal, if the scenario is as you suggested - then he was actually offside.

They're not human. They are Kopites and Mancs!

Just sayin'.

Oh, and Cockneys too.

And bastards.

Blind ones.

#908 ''2. If you dominate games, waste good chances, and rely on the finest of margins for a win then you'll be disappointed from time to time.''

Finest of margins? Two clear goals.

Oh, and btw. Fellaini's ''goal'' was a fuckin goal. He was onside. Even without the directive that the attacking player should get the benefit of the doubt.

Goodson Park Colin - every away teams home ground.

I feel like a whinging gobshite sometimes Mike, saying ''never happens at Anfield/Old Trafford/Stamford Bridge'', but it doesn't!

Evens itself out over the season my arse.

Colin, apparently there's a plaque above the door on the inside of the officials dressing room at Goodison that reads,

'If in doubt, rule it out.'

Been there years. Brass. Shiny in the middle from where they touch it on their way out.

I fuckin believe it mate. Will Cuff was the first one to mention that.

Don't you just love these vacuous, content free, PR department responses to complaints? They churn out a pre-prepared letter every time someone writes.

Dear pension provider, Please can you explain how you have reduced my fund by 20% this year and why you are now applying your 1% management charge? "Difficult market conditions ... world recession ... other companies have lost as much as 30% so compartiviely we have actually managed to protect your interests in relative terms."

This is one reason I would never bother writing to any such body. You are simply pissing your time up against a wall.

But in reality, what can they do? The assistant ref is human. The game cannot be replayed. The events of Monday were errors. However I still wonder about games like the Battenberg derby, which still rankles with me.

Voice of reason Tony. Spoilt my rant mate. Why is the tele so shit?

Naming linesmen as Refereeing assistants is like renaming bin men as hygene engineers. At the end of the day they are still bin men and there I believe is where a mistake was made.
Somewhere there is a fully competent linesman chasing a bin cart while an astonished fat old binman was handed a yellow flag.

There is institutional bias in Premier League football... it may well be worse than "institutional" in some individual cases. Every week evidence piles up. Major decisions to the awarding of fouls even throw ins, corners etc.

Check the free-kicks to possession stats for teams. You cannot bet on the number of free kicks awarded to teams... bookies would be bankrupt if I could bet on LFC winning the free-kick count. EFC regularly give away more fouls at home than the team they are playing, even when they dominate the game; this has happened maybe once or twice in 20 years at Anfield. This week, we had more at home to Newcastle, Liverpool had less away at Sunderland.

The astonishing thing is a few still don't notice it and the sinister thing is the people in charge of the game and media still peddle the "evens itself out" patent nonsense. It is only footy, I know, but the integrity of any game is paramount... and the Premier League has very little left.

Paul #942, you may be right but I reckon that's what it was. Imagine if he was actually offside. That would make some posters look silly. I don't know the actual rule. Just going by the commonly used "if any part of his body is offside, then he's offside."

Here it is again
http://watchhighlightsonline.blogspot.ie/2012/09/video-marouane-fellaini-goal-vs.html
I think it's the leg alright. Somebody look up the rules there so this thread really takes off.

The Felli offside was a tough call and you can see why he might look offside but the Anichebe header was clearly over the line. I was watching it on a dodgy blurry stream on the Internet and I could see it was over the line in real time so why couldn't the blokes who actually get paid to see these things?

And the more I look at Anichibe's, I'm not even sure the whole of the ball crosses the line, never mind it being a foot over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUWQSux4LE4

Does anyone actually think that the linesman involved on Monday, actually disallowed Fellaini's goal because his torso was further forward than the defenders torso? He couldn't spot the ball being clearly over the line, for Vic's goal FFS!

Both where shockingly bad decisions. The debate lies in whether or not there is a bias towards the moneyed/succesful clubs.

Not whether he's human/makes mistakes.

I thought we were relatively lucky the 2nd part of last season; had to change sometime... Still, the linesman had a shocker and should never be allowed to run the line at Goodison again — or I am over-reacting?

Shane #975. Are you having a laugh?

So where do human mistakes fit in your theory Colin? I assume you acknowledge they happen?

Colin # 978, no. I genuinely think that the very left of the ball isn't fully over the line. Just a tiny little bit like.

Humans are humans Shane. We all make mistakes. Just not, apparently, in favour of the away team at Old Trafford or Anfield.

I don't agree mate. The ball is over the line. Not by a yard, but over all the same.

The replay shows the ball fully over the line. And not by inches. Over here, Darke and Macca were saying along the lines of "It looked a goal", then at the replay "Oh my, that was well in".

And when they showed the replay from the left side camera, it looked to me that linesman was still moving for a look-in when the ball had already bounced. I'd think being in some minimal physical condition would be mandatory.

And Colin - Keep yelling Brother. Right on all counts. We were fucked!

Two other things:

1. What an exciting team we have.
2. Agree with Moyes' way. It hurts us, yes. But I watch all the pro game I can. Regarding officiating, Everton respects the game itself. One of the few clubs that do.

It hurts us. Officials know they won't get stick from EFC. I prefer it. As an Evertonian, I except we're gonna get fucked over. As a fan of the game, the rest could take a lesson.

I believe that Everton are among the clubs who tend not to get borderline decisions.It all comes down to the attitude of the coach and on this occasion I am entirely behind David Moyes. He will not tolerate the hounding of referees by his players and he will not use the press to name and pressurise officials.

Referees can be "brave" at Goodison Park, they can give away decisions because we offer them circumstances in which they can demonstrate their impartiality. It might be seen as our coach and his team being soft. I prefer to see it as strength. Would any Evertonian want a cheat like Suarez? We are better than them.

Personally I believe we need a video refereeing system. It is all well and good getting goal line tech but it's only going to solve 2-5 decisions a season.

A video ref will solve 2-5 mistakes a game, which is so important with the money and prizes at stake. Look at the title race last season, nothing but goal difference separated them. Say we finish a point outside the top four this season, I think we'll all know where the two points we needed were lost.

I know getting technology like that in is very difficult and I don't know how it would work in a game, maybe each team is allocated appeals which is referred to the fourth official and he can make the call, I don't know. But for a league that costs a million pounds a place, we cannot go on like this!

The non-offside "offside" goal was disallowed through incompetence. Agreed. There is a case that the assistant official was unsighted by a player just inside the near post. Ww see many camera angles.

The problem here is that, for some unknown quirky reason, the football authorities have failed the clubs, teams and fans by not adopting a form of goal line technology, whether it be some sophisticated software (aka tennis/ cricket etc) or video replay (as per the rugby codes). Probably, it's all "old school fuddy duddy" but they need to get off their arses and do something pdq. In the days of standing on the terraces this poor level of officiation would likely have caused a pitch invasion.

That is an astounding stat, Andrew (#971). You make me realise how inured I have become watching us getting called for just about everything, while those bastards get away with murder!

Michael

It would have been far more credible if Andrew had provided links..

Colin Wainwright @950

#908 ''2. If you dominate games, waste good chances, and rely on the finest of margins for a win then you'll be disappointed from time to time.''
Finest of margins? Two clear goals.

Yes finest of margins. Maybe a couple of centimeters for Vic, and probably millimeters for Fellaini. How fine does it have to be before human error is understandable if not acceptable?

In the first half, Pienaar had a simple chance and could have passed to Osman for an even simpler chance. He shot wide when it looked easier to score.

I would say that error was greater and more significant.

Martin, there was a stat showing on the Goodison screens during the game about possession, which was well in Everton's favour, yet the foul count was much higher to Everton too which is very damning towards a shit ref and officials; why would a team in possession be fouling so many more times than the opposition?

Martin, do some research for yourself. You have an indepedent and useful mind I feel sure.. watch a couple of games with this new found idea !!

Colin (968),

You wouldn't have called me the "voice of reason" in the half an hour following Monday's game. And as for my mood in the wake of the Battenberg Derby ...

I remember Don Revie losing his rag after a Leeds game years ago. Something about an offside which wasn't given. I thought he was pathetic at the time. But when it happens to your own team, blatantly and twice in the same game ...

I'm on a roll... mores the pity. You might also want to look into the appointment of referees when and what games. Bradfords own Martin Atkinson is generally rolled out when the abysmals need a result... as a taster, he generally gives 1.5 to 2 times as many free kicks their way as the opposition, home or away – and last season sent off players and gave two offside goals etc etc.

I know this, so surely the body who appoint him, his bosses surely do. So how with professional integrity can he be appointed to their games? Moyes actually intimated to some of this prior to last season's Goodison derby – and we now know what transpired there.

Gavin #010, you can file that under meaningless stats. I mean what the hell does that information tell us. The team that has the ball most cannot possibly commit more fouls? Could it be that Ben Arfa drew a foul every time he got on the ball, or that Newcastle are more disciplined than us?

Shane, If information is not your strong point then try to think in more "big picture" terms and likelihoods... not just in one game but over hundreds and season after season.

My strong point? I like information, love it. But stats can be used to prove anything as Homer once said. I don't go in for paranoia and although I acknowledge that officials may sometimes favour the bigger teams, I don't think that any such thing happened against Newcastle the other night.

All your choices of course including the quotes used... you might want to go and check em all again though.

Shane 036 you are so right about stats, it could be argued the best player ever is the one with the most medals.

Which until recently was Phil Neal!

I don't understand Andrew? The quote was from Homer Simpson, hardly worth checking???????? I don't think I used any other quotes. The rest is merely my opinion.

Roll on the Swansea game. We're a bigger club than them and they've never beaten us in 15 attempts. Looking good.

Further to my previous post (802) I'm just watching Melbourne Storm v Manley rugby league semi final and there's all sorts of complaining going on with the commentators about decisions of the video referee. Seems that the video is not a panacea.

I watch a lot of sports on TV in the summer. Cricket, rugby, tennis, etc.. All those have the use of video and it actually helps the viewing ... none of these sports allow bullying of the referees or umpires either.

Professional football, which has the most money, has no video help and allows arguing with referees.

My conclusion is that there are many vested interests i.e. certain influential clubs who believe that they benefit from no video and referee intimidation. On referee intimidation, we only see what goes on on the pitch, not the extra pressure from press statements, in the tunnel ranting, taking refs on pre-season tours, etc..

I'm glad Moyes and Everton don't intimidate refs, but no doubt that Liverpool and Man Utd in particular have adopted this as a strategy. Everton would benefit on average from video technology.

On that point Joe I was told years ago by Terry McDermot that Shankly told his players in no uncertain terms that the ones nearest the referee had to scream in his ear for every decision.

That tradition has certainly been carried on and adopted by Ferguson.

Who would disagree that in tapping his watch and getting the referees attention he influences thetime referees allow.

I have never felt for one minute that the refeeering establishment was biasd against Everton.Why, on earth, should they be?If we supported another club we should suffer just as much injustice at the hands of incompetent officials.By the same token,we should enjoy a similar measure of good fortune.
But,of course, the establishment IS biased.Biased in favour of their appointed officials who we are expected to `respect`whatever their lack of judgement.
I don`t believe for one minute that `goal-line technology `will see an end to the officials` ability to piss us off on a most regular basis! What would we be left to talk about?

Andrew Bulmer - you are to be congratulated. I will keep an eye on such data in future.

As for statistics proving nothing:

- the link between cholera and fouled water was discovered by statistical methods (1850's)

- the link between lung cancer and smoking cigarettes was discovered by statistical methods (1950's)

and all before doctors peered down their microscopes to confirm the truth of these findings.

Anyone can drink shit cocktails and smoke themselves to death if they want, but don't tell us you weren't warned.

Speaking of which, we eat shit courtesy of the sweet FA week in week out. The 'we are only human' defence implies that 'in my position you would have done exactly the same'. Bollocks. Get rid of the lot of them. They are all corrupted by a bad system, from FIFA down.

And if refs didn't do it, how would games be played? Easy. There's an army of ex-players available who would jump at the chance. That's how cricket umpiring often works. Could it be any worse?

And don't tell me that amateur sport would suffer without the FA. Playing for MEC in the Lancashire League, a ref once said to me' you bloody teachers are all the same' when a sub/thug was brought on to break as many legs as possible. As it turned out, he slid and injured himself. An ambulance was called. The ref abandoned the game two minutes early. We got the points. Ah, the good old days.

And the deaf ref in one of the Stockport leagues. His disability was not the problem. He was simply a shite ref. Once, having blown up for a throw-in, for us, he then waved play-on. They broke away and scored. And I hasten to add, none of the vast crowd of supporters had a whistle.

Unlike the ref on an adjoining pitch one Sunday morning who blew when I thought one of our players on our pitch was fouled. Picking the ball up to place it for a free kick, I was blown up for handball, quite correctly. "Of fuck", said I when I realised what had happened. I was booked for that (and paid the fine), the only time in my "career".

Refs are only human of course. Like bankers, politicians and many a police officer. Paying zillions into this game, we don't get the adjudication we deserve and, as I said, pay for.

Stop whingeing, Andy Stevens and move on!

An embarrassing letter to be honest.

You would have done far better to suggest something constructive like goal line technology and a ' Ref in the Dark' - another referee locked way under the stands with video views of all angles ( provided by Sky etc ) who will be linked to the referee on the pitch and tell him when he feels he has dropped a clanger. The Ref on the pitch can either trust his own judgement and ignore the advice or go to the side of the pitch ( opposite side to the dug outs ), view footage and either uphold or rescind the decision.

Officials need help with the speed of the game now. Every other traditional team sport does it ( cricket, rugby, tennis etc ) and football is long overdue.

Made to apologise? Nearly spat my tea out. Pompous letter, mate.

Oh and you spelt both Fellaini and Anichebe wrongly as well. Very impressive and adds weight to your case when you cannot even get the basics right - not!

Let Karl Masters' post be the last on the topic please. The previous one took the biscuit.

People need to understand that there are two very different types of bias; conscious and subconscious.

Subconscious bias is part of human nature; it is why taller people tend to have better careers and why attractive women get away with behaviour that should see them castigated.

What sort of bias is operating in the minds of the referees when they officiate for games involving the 'better' clubs? That probably depends on the individual concerned.

Until someone comes up with some proof that the linesman on Monday was conciously biased in favour of the barcodes, then we are left with no option except to accept that he made two honest mistakes which unfortunately for us had a significant impact on the outcome of the game.

You can't argue that he was negligent either, because he was shown to be in a reasonable position to perform his duties on both occasions.

By the time I've read the OP there are 103 responses, so I'm afraid I've skipped to the end to simply add my initial reactions, which are twofold.

1. This e-mail was not written in response to yours, it already existed.

2. I really hope Mr. D. C. Richards officiates in our games again, soon and as much as possible, because try as he might, he won't be able to help erring on the side of Everton, as he will know how badly he cocked up and even if its entirely subconscious, his flag will seek to redress the balance.

Now skimmed a few responses, and in terms of the 'conspiracy' style debate about certain teams getting decisions and others not, I've always believed it comes down to one basic thing: officials can't help but err on the side of the team they expect to win anyway.

If you think about it, its natural. If you expect to make a mistake at some point, or realise that many decisions aren't black and white but are open to interpretation, you'd rather it led to something happening that was probably going to happen anyway than that it led to a huge shock that will be analysed and debated in minute detail.

As an Evertonian I've noticed this particularly over Moyes' tenure. I'm too young to remember the 80s well enough, so as I grew up we were quite a poor team who were generally expected to lose, and as such never seemed to get any decisions. I noticed a real change in this around five years ago where, especially at home against bottom half teams, we seemed to get the nod. As we became a better team and people expected us to win, we got more refereeing decisions.

Having said that, I don't think it applies to the linesman on Monday night, I think he just went with the old-fashioned 'defence gets benefit of the doubt' idea, even though the directives on offside decisions clearly state the opposite. I actually think the opposite of most people on the two goals, although I think Anichebe's is in, its really not by much, in fact its so close that even Shane isn't sure, neither were the BBC reporters on the night apparently. However, Fellaini's goal, despite the fact that I didn't celebrate immediately as I suspected it might be offside, is unforgivable, as the linesman has to be sure that he has seen an offside in order to give one. He can't possibly have been sure, as there was clearly a fluorescent coloured boot playing the big man onside. From his angle, as opposed to mine on the TV, he should have been able to see that.

Dear _____,

Whatever.

Yours truly,

Customer Services.

That letter from the Premier League is a bit like the one I got from my local council when I complained about the over-use of red tulips in a municipal flowers display.

I hope the original poster is going to write to the FA again and lambast the officials for missing the Fellaini handball in the lead up to our first goal at Swansea.

'Make the referee grovel in front of the Swansea players, blah, blah, blah...'

Handball? What handball?

That handball had to happen! Fair point Karl I consider myself castigated and will reflect before firing off an email in a fit of pique next time.

I have to say you have got to love Toffeeweb – such a mixture of opinions and debate.

The End....

Apologies if anybody has pointed this out before but in relation to the Fella "offside" goal, gutted as I was, it's apparently a scientific fact that when you move your eyes from one object (in this case the person with the ball) to another (the person receiving the ball), it takes a fraction of a second for the brain to start to register the second object (ie the person receiving the ball) and during that time Fella has moved into an offside position - all too fast for the brain to take it in. But, hey, it was still a shit decision!

Good on you, Andy. Top Evertonian and shows you care. I have learnt the hard way not to dive in too soon as usually you end up looking silly and football and Everton in particular are always very good at that anyway.

Brent, if it's a scientific fact then it's pretty much a certainty then that the FA should admit they need technology and the professional label is utter bollocks as suspected.

That handball only happened because Fellaini was flinching away from a thigh high studs up challenge, he wasn't even looking. If anyone claims a handball I want a penalty and a red card for Tate's challenge. As well as the red card he bottled out of giving Ashley Williams.

Brent you don't need to move your eyes, your field of vision is approximately 180 degrees and you can see it all at once.

I agree with everything you say Mike - apart from the last bit. Your field of view IS 180 degrees or thereabouts, but you can only really focus upon a small fraction of it at any given moment. For example, the posts on this page will only occupy a small portion of your field of view, but I bet you can't read it without moving your eyes.

Mike, I'm no expert, but I do understand it to be the case - so you can move your eyes 180 degrees but apparently by the time your brain adjusts the scene has moved on fractionally, so you're not seeing it all at once... so I once read.

To all posters, if you remember the linesman involved, and remember his name and face, you will find out that he has a lot of previous for getting decisions like this wrong, especially last season as well! There are two very bad linesmen in the Premier League; as you watch other matches on Sky, etc, the other linesman will become apparent as the season progresses.

Marouane Fellaini is rapidly picking up the reputation of being 'unplayable'. This mainly applies to his chest control. I don't think I've ever seen it done so well (comments please), and Tate was it? who was trying to take the ball off his chest with his boot on Saturday. A clear penalty to me.

Karl Masters, like many a referee, can see what he likes.

It will be interesting to see as the season progresses how 'unplayable' referees allow Fellaini to be. He will be kicked in the thigh, hip and chest as opponents prepare to 'work him out'. Bet you most of them shy away from bookings and worse, if they give anything at all.

I've seen Fellaini being booked for a goal celebration a yard beyond the corner flag (when jumping beyond the advertising is usually ignored), for having the wrong hairstyle and for being a Belgian.

Si Cooper - unconscious or conscious, this amounts to what is called good old-fashioned prejudice and discrimination. The man was being pre-judged and was found guilty when no offence was committed. And the cosy world of the FA works like that, always has done. And they dearly wish it always will.

That's why they should have the plugs pulled on them. It happened to the Football League. Its happened in other sports. They have the massive, corrupt FIFA protecting them. But bigger players will come along, and it will change.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19707057

"With studs, almost by definition, if a player is going into a tackle two-footed, airborne, their studs raised, then they cannot control their velocity and risk a red card."

Unless their name is KungFu Kuyt and it's a tackle on Phil Nevilles' midriff.

I think that generally speaking they do a great job that allows the game to flow freely. They are dealing with difficult players who get paid vastly more money than them and who are encouraged by their clubs to cheat so they have a doubly difficult job applying the rules of the game as well as identifying the cheating infringements. They make mistakes as all humans will do and when they rule out a goal it is because the referee, the linesman and perhaps the assistant ref couldn't see enough to enable them to make a decision that a goal had been scored, they don't rule that no goal was scored.

Where the system is falling down now is that the outcome of bad decisions is far more serious; sending offs can change the course of important games dramatically and 60,000 in the ground and millions worldwide can be deprived of a spectacle that they've paid top money to see. Commentators in the studio have become far more analytical of every decision and fans demand perfect judgement where their team are concerned with the benefit now of playback after playback. Perhaps now the statistical, "well it all evens out", doesn't apply now?

Far more serious for me is the institutionalised bias shown towards United anywhere and sides like Liverpool at home and I was interested to see which way the bias would go last Sunday when they met. As expected, by me at least, it went ridiculously to United care of an unjustified sending off and a non-penalty. Liverpool are also being punished for having out and out cheats like Suarez in the team because the refs are waving away not only his dives but also some possibly valid fouls on other players.

For me I would hate to see goal line technology and especially a 4th referee with video. I would however like to see cheats like Suarez taken out of the game and institutionalised bias towards United eliminated.