I can understand why David Moyes plays seriously weakened teams in ties like this. He sees the cup as a distraction and not, as others do, the only chance he’s ever likely to have of lifting a trophy. He wants to go out. However, fans are still buying tickets and traveling at some expense in the – clearly naïve – expectation of seeing an honest game, the result of which has not been unilaterally decided beforehand in the manager’s office. They deserve some consideration.
Rule 6.2 of the competition rules, never applied, says:.
6.2 Each Club shall play its full available strength in all Cup Competition matches, unless some satisfactory reason is given. In the event of the explanation not being deemed satisfactory the Management Committee shall have power to impose such penalties as they shall think fit.Now does anyone really believe that the team of Mucha, Coleman, Heitinga, Distin, Oviedo, Naismith, Fellaini, Junior, Gueye, Mirallas and Anichebe is our “full available strength”???I realize that it’s important to give some players match experience and others a break. However, when you make seven changes, including players who only know each other from the training ground, and include a goalkeeper whose reckless incompetence is already well-established, it amounts to self-sabotage. Even that does not explain the sloppy, half-hearted approach to the game. Players who are playing for a place would have tried harder. The reality is they seemed clearly aware they were not there to win.
When Distin scored he actually looked worried he might be in trouble with his manager. When we had a dead-to-rights stone-cold penalty shout, Moyes looked relieved it wasn’t given. It was that transparent.
If some clubs don’t want to be in this competition, the FA should allow them not to enter. Losing matches as brazenly as this would not then be necessary. It would be preferable to this kind of farce in which everyone pretends the competition is honest, all teams are going out to win, and fans are not being robbed.
Reader Comments (82)
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Norman Merrill
3 Posted 26/09/2012 at 08:23:07Marcus, surprised you have never heard of Michael Brown,
Played for many a side, in Premier, and still does not know what the ball is for!!Lee Gorre
4 Posted 26/09/2012 at 08:32:06We definitely wanted to win the game, there can be no doubt about, as did the 5000 Evertonians at the game.I see it pretty simply last night. Moyes underestimated Leeds and put the wrong side out and that was just rank poor preparation and homework. Everyone knows what you get from a Warnock side - physical, strong, in your face from the start. To play Junior and Gueye in that sort of game was a mistake. To leave all the midfield creativity out was a mistake. Either Osman or Pienaar should have started.
Why rest Howard? He could have done with playing after a good game at Swansea and I think the back two were so shaky partly because of a lack of confidence in Mucha behind them.
I don't go along with this view about not caring about the league cup. We need to win a trophy and this was our best chance.
Sean McKenna
5 Posted 26/09/2012 at 08:54:34Jesus, lads, give it a rest, these young so-called stars were woefull as were our so-called big stars. It's simple really — the young lads aren't ready yet.
And the other fact is we simply can't play like we did against Swansea every week, it's impossible. We lost, we deserved to lose... so move on to the next game.Dick Fearon
6 Posted 26/09/2012 at 09:21:51Moyes blew it, surely to god it should have been obvious that whatever the reason it was plain to everyone that Maguye and Junior are not good enough and probably never will be.
A good manager would have dragged them in the first 30 minutes. What does that make Davy?
Phil Walling
7 Posted 26/09/2012 at 09:30:36We just have to accept that we will NEVER win anything under Moyes. Kenwright will never be able to provide him with the resources to pull off a league title-and even if he did,the Moystro would fuck-up- and the man just does not have what have it takes to be successful in the cup challenges.His team selection jugement is weak and he has always been flawed in the tactics deparment in one-off situations.
Yes,we shall enjoy our `little runs`-usually towards the end of the season-and glory on odd occasions when we are above the shite-but that`s about it.It`s how it is!David S Shaw
8 Posted 26/09/2012 at 09:42:32Moyes has to take the blame.If his tenure ends trophyless then he only has himself to blame putting out a shocking team like that.
17 years since we last won anything. Is it any wonder?
Adam Fenlon
9 Posted 26/09/2012 at 10:08:42Get a grip! Moyes has taken the competition much more seriously than most have in the past (albeit without success).The changes he made to a winning team backfired last night. Life goes on.
There's honest criticism and then there's over the top hysteria.
Lee Preston
10 Posted 26/09/2012 at 10:10:49I see the Moyes bashers are out again! What a shock, the defeat gives you license to have a pop.Not defending last nights result, but I agreed with his starting line up, it was strong enough to win in my eyes.
As for the 'Moyes wanted to lose', if that were the case, why would he risk Pienaar and Jelavic in a physical game? Doesn't make sense.
Another Swansea style result and performance against Southampton on Saturday and the whinging Moyes bashers can hide away until the next defeat.
Kev Johnson
11 Posted 26/09/2012 at 10:28:24I enjoyed the title of this thread, but that was all.Chris Fisher
12 Posted 26/09/2012 at 10:40:32When we weren't awarded the penalty, Moyes was seen shouting at the 4th official and shaking his head. I think your reaction is born out of the frustration of watching us lose a game that our first 11 would've comfortably won.Phil Bellis
13 Posted 26/09/2012 at 10:24:54This would've been a decent team if at home to, say, Burnley, but away at Leeds we might have needed the first teamBut the possibility of injuries to first-teamers on a filthy night against a Warnock team was a real concern
However, like the line-ups for the early Europa rounds some years ago, it's a delicate balancing act for Moyes and, this time, it didn't work out
Andy Crooks
14 Posted 26/09/2012 at 11:05:43I don't know if the team last night was good enough to win as they didn't turn up. They let the manager down and worse, every supporter who paid good money to travel and supprt them.Steve Carse
15 Posted 26/09/2012 at 11:08:17PhilMoyes didn't put out weakened sides in the early Europa games.
But here he put out a weaker side than the one he did at home to Leyton Orient!
If he seriously wants to win a trophy (as surely he must) then why weaken the side at all? Why take the risk?
And if he always intended using this game to try the younger players out then why didn't he hold Barkley's loan move back a week or so and play him last night. Surely Moyes doesn't think Barkley has less potential than Junior or Gueye. Heaven help us if he does.
And as for resting players, we now might find that our season will consist of just 41 games. Forget what that means for our finances, just ask why we then need to rest anyone!
Phil Bellis
16 Posted 26/09/2012 at 11:20:38Steve
Didn't some of the youngsters play in the Europa "mini-league" games?
Wallace, Coleman, Agard, Craig etc - or was that when we had qualified from the groups?
But, whatever, the players last night and/or the management blew it - nowt we can do but moan, now
A lot is now riding on the weekend's game - a hangover or back to business? Let's see
Chris James
17 Posted 26/09/2012 at 10:16:41OMFG! I just spotted this, is this serious?
I've been castigated by the management in the past for challenging what I saw as a massive negative over-reaction to one bad result because my remark wasn't balanced and was too forcefully expressed. Whilst I'm happy to take that on board, I do find it somewhat hard to swallow when posts like this are condoned. It does seem like you can say whatever you like if you're slating the club/manager/players/management, but to argue against these views is frowned uponThe position adopted here is not only plainly ludicrous, entirely one-sided and astonishingly extreme, it's actually virging on liabellous calling into question the integrity of manager, players and club.
It's fair enough to provoke a discussion about the general practise of playing some fringe/youth players and 'weakened' teams, but that's not what we have here - there's no restraint or balance in this rant whatsoever.
Martin Mason
18 Posted 26/09/2012 at 11:38:05Chris, you are correct I'm afraid but I believe it is improving. The OP is nonsense but would you like to recommend doing what you object to having done to yourself in the form of censorship?All I would say is that if an offence has been committed then let Mr Molly report it to the authorities and have EFC dealt with accordingly. The answer is of course that it'd be laughed out because it's already established that any squat player satisfies the requirements of the rules.
Barry Conway
19 Posted 26/09/2012 at 11:53:00What a load of crap, Moyes would never throw a game like that, he picked a team that he and I thought would do a job against a poor Leeds team.The players let the fans, manager, team and themselves down big time, nothing to do with Moyes — to think anything else is pure folly on your part, Jack.
Paul Smith
20 Posted 26/09/2012 at 11:50:02I think Moyes went for it, and it flopped, simple as that. The cynic in me appeared the minute I saw the team sheet last night.The fact alone the game was played in the middle of the biggest `September storm` in 30 years, is surely enough reason to go with `tried and tested ` and not, `dire and rested` to coin a bad phrase.
We need to move on, this Saturday is vital now, we bounced back after WBA and we can do it against Saints. COYB
Chris James
21 Posted 26/09/2012 at 11:56:42Hi Martin, it's a fair point. I think I'm just after a bit of balance really. I know I'm more of a glass half full person than most commenters and I genuinely don't begrudge them their viewpoint, I just think others should have the right to be equally vociferous in defence of their positive views.Not seeking censorship, but there clearly is an element of filtering/editing that takes place (as there should be, I own a number of sites myself and moderation is essential) and I suppose I am asking for that to be as consistent as it can be, or at least clear in the policy lines. (This is not intended as criticism of Michael or Lyndon et al, I think they do and have done a phenomenal job with Toffeeweb.)
I love this site, I love Everton and I love the fact we seem to be a force to be reckoned with right now (well first team at least!).Phil Walling
22 Posted 26/09/2012 at 12:37:27Whatever your stance on the brilliance-or otherwise-of David Moyes,it is a fact that the team he chose last night was not up to doing the job in hand.Personally,I don`t give a stuff anout this cup but why does he insist he is serious about winning it and then send out a rag-bag of a team to do the job?
After the game he`d changed his stance and it was all about `giving fringe players a chance to show us if they are good enough`.Well, he now knows they bloody well ain`t so the game served its purpose.
We can only hope that we make an early exit from the FA Cup as well so as to avoid any chance of him fucking up in a similar way come Derby time !
Ernie Baywood
23 Posted 26/09/2012 at 13:22:43Simple, of the squad players are good enough then we'll play 45-50 games including periods of 3 in a week and will need them.If they're not good enough then we'll play 38-42 games and won't need such a big squad.
They weren't good enough so we'll play fewer games with a smaller group of regular players.
Jay Harris
24 Posted 26/09/2012 at 13:29:36We needed a cup tie team but started with a training ground team of strangers.We needed battlers and instead got bottlers.
I rate David Moyes but he consistently underestimates Warmock.
Remember QPR at home last season.
IMO this was on game where we should have had a meaty central MF.
I also believe that we started out too defensively and should have played higher up the pitch.
Poor old Victor (I never thought I would hear myself say that) must have felt totally isolated.
Steve Barr
25 Posted 26/09/2012 at 13:35:12How can we be talking about resting players at this stage of the season?We're on a good run and the strategy should have been to keep the momentum going. No problem making changes, but the kiddies guide to coaching would not support making wholesale changes like Moyes did last night, particularly making them in specific areas of the formation.
Bring them in with the appropriate experienced player(s) around them for example, and not so many at once. Disruptive.
Also, I bet none of the players involved in the current good run would want to sit any game out at this stage.
We're not in Europe so we can't be expecting too many games this season with only the League, FA Cup and League Cup up for grabs.
Traveling fans in particular will be rightly pissed off having traveled to Yorkshire on a miserable English night and really deserved to see the 1st XI out there.
Danny Jones
26 Posted 26/09/2012 at 13:08:55I didn't see the match so feel free to put me right if I have got something wrong.The changes David Moyes made shows, to me, that he ranks this competition lower than any other. However, it doesn't follow that he doesn't want to be in it. Logic doesn't work that way.
So many changes both to personel and positions, Feli deeper and Johnny Hollywood to right of centre pair, from the last outing, make this a very different team. Such changes must convey to the players a lack of conviction from the manager. They must think, especially the old heads, that this game can't be very important otherwise the boss wouldn't be doing this. A less than committed manager will be reflected on the field.
For me, Moyes over-estimated his players and under-estimated the opposition. This isn't the first time and it probably won't be the last.
He gambled and lost but , in mitigation, he didn't consider the stakes to be very high. How the supporters feel about the competition is a different matter.
Bob Willis
27 Posted 26/09/2012 at 13:48:23Jack Molloy, thanks for raising this point. Last night I too was on the verge of raising the very same matter.Having joined the AutoCup and paid to see the Leyton Orient game I was quite prepared to dig in and spend more to watch us progress. I wasn't at the Leeds game but hoping for more home draws in the Cups.
This attitude however has got me thinking that despite coughing up to see early rounds, there is a distinct possibility that the same will happen again in future cupties and we field a team that cannot./doesn't want to win.
To me that is not on and I shall not be attending any further Cupties and will cancel my AutoCup affiliation.
Sod it!!
Tony McNulty
28 Posted 26/09/2012 at 14:01:42We all know what Moyes was trying to do: (1) rest/protect players for the more important league games on a bog of a pitch; (2) try out some of the back-up members of the squad to see if they cut the mustard.In the end it was over-ambitious, but imagine if a key player had got injured on that potato patch. Moyes would have been seriously slagged off.
I'm annoyed we won't progress in that competition but he wasn't the only manager regretting his decisions last night. Perspective anyone?
Jack Molloy
30 Posted 26/09/2012 at 15:33:56It's not just this one game. There's a pattern of fielding impossibly weakened teams as cover to quit this competition early. Last night was particularly egregious. He had other options. 1: Field a team with two or three reserves and move in three more in the second half when we're ahead. 2. Play a team of all-reserves but fire them up with the concept that he'll stick with them as they progress through the competition. 3. Admit, 'I don't give a toss about the tie. My advice to our fans is not to waste your money.' Of course there was a fourth option: go there with a full strength side and try to win. .
Jay Harris
31 Posted 26/09/2012 at 16:01:08Making 6 changes to the established set up is no way to judge some of the fringe players.None of those players could show their potential because they just HAD NOT played together before.
It is NOT the players fault.
It was totally shambolic.
We should have gone out fought for the right to play and then brought some of the fringe players in.
Lee Preston
32 Posted 26/09/2012 at 16:00:23He probably played with 4 reserve players Jack. Mucha, Oviedo, Gueye and Junior.The rest are first team players, who have and will feature regularly. Moyes has played a team who he feels is strong enough to beat Leeds. Granted, it backfired and he was wrong, but it doesn't have to be this grand conspiracy to get knocked out of the cup.
I'm disappointed we lost, but seriously, calling into question the managers desire to win the game is a bit far.
Keith Glazzard
33 Posted 26/09/2012 at 15:36:32Tony McNulty speaks sense. 'Resting' players doesn't mean giving them a day off, it means protecting them from injury and, at particular times, from cards leading to suspension.Moyes intended to win this one. How badly he got his team selection for it showed at half-time. I hope Junior is given enough TLC to get over what happened last night to emerge as a decent player next year sometime, but Magaye Gueye has as much chance of becoming a Prem player as I have. Not only no good, he's a liability. And I have seen him at close quarters at GP many times.
Mirallas and Naismith were given too much responsibility at this stage in their Everton careers (which will be OK in future). Coleman too, as a fully grown-up RB. Not yet.
Oviedo came out as the best prospect - no Baines for now, but he has the makings and I'm glad we've got him.
This was a game for Hibbo (n/a) and Neville from the start. Denis Stracqualursi, where are you when we need you? Vic was fouled to hell and back, but more about the ref later.
Moyes most definitely got it wrong - but not deliberately. And, as Jack Molloy states in the OP -
'Rule 6.2 of the competition rules, never applied'
says you have to play to available strength. Seven internationals, starting with Mucha, against - I've no idea if Leeds have any - zero? I think they should lodge an objection.
Jack - its not the league, its a cup. The result affects only us, unless it can be shown that the bookies were involved. The regulation means sod all. The travelling faithful were short-changed by the first half performance for sure, and that has to be condemned.
Last point. I think we could have put out the 1970 Brazil team against them last night. And every free kick we scored from, Lee Mason would have had retaken for some technicality he had just invented. He made us retake 3 free kicks I think. And dirty Everton got 3 cards against hard but fair Leeds single. Furking unbelievable.
Can any ref out there explain to me why a bleeding head wound should be treated on the pitch, when a player is perfectly capable of walking to a cleaner environment, say in a dressing room? It happened twice last night. He added four minutes on of course.
Tony J Williams
34 Posted 26/09/2012 at 16:36:27We have some of the best supporters ever, don't we? We now want our club investigated, which could ultimately get the club fined, maybe have points deducted.......you simply couldn't write this shite....oh wait someone just has.Idwal Hughes
35 Posted 26/09/2012 at 16:43:12I think some people are missing a very important point here; although there were a few younger inexperienced players on display last night, they were let down by first teamers who in one or two cases were pretty disgraceful (Fellaini in 1st half, Heitinga and Distin all night).
Plus, on a slight tangent, Naismith looked woefully inadequate. In fact I'll call this one right now; he will be another Beckford and bombed out next summer sadly.David Barks
36 Posted 26/09/2012 at 16:56:48If he has played Baines and Pienaar and that thug Brown broken one of their ankles with his horrible tackles, the same people criticizing his team would be out in force asking why he would risk them in a meaningless competition worth hardly anything financially. The players played poorly, I disagreed with him bringing Neville in at halftime, and we weren't ever going to be given a penalty even if a Leeds defender took a bat to one of our players in the box and held it up to the ref to show him what he just did. A bad game, glad it wasn't in the league. I want us to go for the Champions League and not having to worry about this competition that people don't buy tickets to could help that cause. But did Moyes intentionally lose, tell his players to lose? Get a life.Charlie Dixon
37 Posted 26/09/2012 at 16:57:57Yeah couldn't agree with Tony J Williams.Get a grip some of you. We were outplayed by a fighting Leeds side on a grim night in Yorkshire. If you go back to threads pre game NO-ONE wanted Jelly to start and the idea of resting Jags, Pienaar, Baines, was welcomed by a large majority.
If we win then Moyes is applauded. If we lose to a very decent Leeds performance then there's an over-reactive outcry of utter dogsh!te from the minority. People say that Moyes has done this before, however last year it was our league side that was changed when that disgusting thug scored 3 and their was an outcry (justified) that he shouldn't give the cup any preference. Either way he knows alot more than every single one of uis on what teams to select and unfortunetly last night didnt work.
Get over the defeat and look forward to Saturday where we could go 2nd.
Onward Evertonains don't let your hearts be low, remember that our song for wemb.... oops.
Charlie Dixon
38 Posted 26/09/2012 at 17:05:01*Agree more with Tony! Jesus I need to leave work.Tony J Williams
39 Posted 26/09/2012 at 17:21:52"It is NOT the players fault." - yes it fecking is.....along with Moyes. Bloody player apologists.........hmmm!Andy Crooks
40 Posted 26/09/2012 at 18:09:07Tony Williams, good posts. The well paid players let all of us down last night.Chris James, fair enough to an extent. However, it wasn't always the way you see it. A number of years ago I posted negative comments about David Moyes. The response was vitriolic to the extent that some called for restraint. A few comments were removed but they were, as I recall, against myself and Carian McGlone.
I agree with Martin Mason, censorship would ruin this site. Give it and take it. A fan site is about robust debate.
Chris Butler
41 Posted 26/09/2012 at 18:14:20I personally don't have an issues with his choice last night we just played poorly has Naismith taken his chance it would have been different.
The decision that caused many Everton fans including me to give up on success under DM was his decsion the rest so many players for the derby. He should've been punished for that because he gave the game to Liverpool.
It's only under extreme cicumstances that teams are allowed to drop players, such as when Liverpool were keeping their players safe for the 2007 Champions League final. Another example is when United rested players on the last day on the 2008-09 season, they still won regardless. To rest players for a away fixture against Liverpool with the view to a game at home against Sunderland is ridiculous.Andrew Gilbert
42 Posted 26/09/2012 at 18:52:20Don't normally like to post about threads being ridiculous but....Oi who's knicked my biscuits?Barry Rathbone
43 Posted 26/09/2012 at 18:52:02Jack Molloy, if you're right he's got "offences" going back 10 yrs to take into consideration.In all seriousness it shows the chasm between the fans and the manager. Even allowing for the keyboard nutters saying trophies don't matter, 5000 paying fans say different.
losing is one thing aiding the process year on year by putting his "FM" coaches hat on is poor.
We have 3 things to go at :
existing in the league.
win the fa cup
win the league cup.
If anything emphasis should be placed on the cups given this clubs history of being in the top division.
One third of the season's target has gone down the shute already - not good enough.
Liam Morton
44 Posted 26/09/2012 at 19:34:08The rule you referred to in the article is one that has been altered recently due to widespread confusion from top-level managers (Mick McCarthy and Ian Holloway spring to mind). You submit a squad with no more than 25 first team players, so technically you can pick whatever players are in that squad list. As David Moyes said, there's no point in them being there if they arn't going to play.
I personally don't buy into some fans suggesting they should be refunded or that he has let the paying fans down. Fans who pay to watch a football match know full well they might be paying to watch their team lose beforehand, so to demand money back after the game really isn't practical and as a club, they cannot set a precedent like that.
I'll be at the Southampton game at the weekend, and I know now that we may not win, just as much as I know we may win. That's the risk you take to watch your beloved team — especially one as inconsistent as Everton!Jamie Barlow
45 Posted 26/09/2012 at 19:47:43It's just mentioned on SSN that there are 9 prem teams playing tonight and there has been a total of 77 changes from the teams at the weekend.I don't know what that means but I thought I'd let you know.
Thank you.
Keith Glazzard
46 Posted 26/09/2012 at 19:49:03Barry - haven't you just shot yourself in the foot?Existing in the league? In 2012 we are a team playing like they can win the league. Would you swap that for the Milk Cup, or whatever its called these days?
Nick Waters
47 Posted 26/09/2012 at 19:57:27Come off it Keith, only 5 games are gone - anyone can play well over 5 games (West Brom) and besides we've picked up exactly the same number of points (10) as we did in the same 5 fixtures last season. And where did we finish then? .....7th. So there are no guarantees about how we can do in the league - all the more reason to push for the cup run, don't you think?Matt Traynor
48 Posted 26/09/2012 at 20:02:34Oh the irony. Leeds has, apparently, had a heavy run of fixtures and also had a few players missing last night. So it seems we were 2nd in the battle of the 2nd strings.Jamie Barlow
49 Posted 26/09/2012 at 20:08:01Nick, Keith said in 2012.Nick Waters
50 Posted 26/09/2012 at 20:12:15True Jamie but the fixtures last season against Newcastle and West Brom were also in 2012 and we're down 5 points in comparison. So as I said it's unclear about where we standBarry Rathbone
52 Posted 26/09/2012 at 20:39:06Keith 353, I know each of us in moments of wild fancy imagine this form and new found philosophy continuing. Boldly driving into the CL places and acclaimed nationwide as the "Peoples Champions" erstwhile "David vs Goliath" celebrities.But then you look at the facts ie seasoned masters of the purple patch a "derby match" away from crawling back into our shell, and nobody in the coaching staff has a clue why!
Draw a line below the serious contenders (whatever the figure is these days 4, 5 or 6) and there we exist.
On that basis we have all the idiosyncrasies of a good cup side, but Moyes, bless his befuddled mind can't see it.
Not that he's alone, ahem!
Mike Green
53 Posted 26/09/2012 at 21:06:30I don't be believe it - I think I agree with what Barry Rathbone's saying! Nurse!!!
Tony McNulty
54 Posted 26/09/2012 at 21:08:18With our first team out on the park, and fat linesmen and bald referees kept away from the ground, we can give anyone a game on our day.If we gets lots of injuries, married to follicly-challenged fuckwits who are no strangers to a fish supper making the key decisions, we may finish as low as the Shite.
Ian Bennett
55 Posted 26/09/2012 at 21:15:59Jamie 351 – it proves managers and chairmen prioritise the league over silverware. The same happens in the FA Cup.Other than the top three going for the title, the rest of us fans are mugs to put up with it, making up the numbers.
One side can finish 5th and win three cup competitions. The other finishes 4th and is knocked out in the group stages. Which one makes more money and has the 'success'?
Another example: one team finishes 8th and is knocked out of the cup. The other finishes 14th and wins a cup, which one makes more money and has the 'success'?
Kev Johnson
56 Posted 26/09/2012 at 21:34:46Tony - how are we going to avoid getting fat, bald officials? I can't think of a good way of asking the FA if we can only have hairy, skinny ones? It will have to be phrased quite delicately, that's for sure.Personally, I quite like refs to be bald. I want them to look older than the players and appear somehow wiser and more responsible. It fools me into thinking they know what they're doing. If they had long, flowing locks it would be a bit wrong somehow.
Actually, I have got one useful thing to say: bring in a rule making it illegal for officials to wear contact lenses. Then we can immediately see which ones wear glasses and will be able to direct uncomplimentary remarks in their direction in the event of a bad offside call, harsh sending off, etc, etc. I bet half of them are as blind as bats. We need to know who they are. Thanks for your attention.
John Crawley
57 Posted 26/09/2012 at 22:24:49Moyes's tenure at the club has shown his inability to win a cup in 10 years! Our performances in this particular cup are appalling. Football is about winning trophies, this competition was our best chance of winning a trophy this season. But Moyes has blown it and not for the first time.
The changes were ridiculous but it wasn't just the changes in personnel he also decided to piss around with the most effective positions that some first team players had been playing in this season. Fellaini has been most effective playing off Jelavic & Anichebe this season so he didn't play him there. Mirallas has looked at his best on the right hand side but he didn't play him there either. When Pienaar came on, he didn't play him on the left but in the middle.
I have no clue what the hell Moyes was thinking of last night but it surely wasn't — "I am desperate to win this cup competition and I am going to do everything in my power to try and achieve that aim!"Yessar Daou
58 Posted 27/09/2012 at 00:16:06When else would Oviedo, Gueye and Junior get a chance to play in a proper competitive fixture???? What happens if Bainesy had started and god forbid got an injury that put him out of the season??!! AGAINST LEEDS!! The fact is, our depth was tested and it failed miserably.Edward Simpson
59 Posted 26/09/2012 at 23:48:03I really do hate all of this knee-jerking. Like some of the fans said previously, the team was unusual but good enough to win it.Mucha wasn't to blame for the two goals, the defense from the CB's was pathetic, and how we managed to let in the second was anyone's guess.
Junior was hopeless I'm afraid and Gueye wasn't far behind. But it's unfair to say every one was, Fellaini played well, and so did Pienaar when he came on. Anichebe also put in a graft and showed his strength at times. And a decent full debut for Oviedo in my view.
Lots of factors came into play though on the night. We lost the ball far too easily with some poor passing and 'lobbed' balls. Leeds's ability to hold the ball up so well, the weather, our terrible defending and no one willing to actually tackle on the edge of the box were all factors (which made me pull my hair out at times).
I'm as disappointed as all Everton fans are that we lost, but I was more annoyed when we lost to WBA, it's not the end of the world. We have three consecutive games which shouldn't cause us any problems. But we need to get back to business on Saturday with a win, we should have a full squad available bar Gibson, (and he should be back soon) so we have options.
Wigan away should be straight forward then the terribly poor QPR, who we should get at least a point from. So yes, we're disappointed but we have to move on, we can do wonders in the league this year, and if we keep the consistency going, top five around Christmas time with the fixtures we have got doesn't look particularly taxing.
We slipped up on Tuesday night, but let's get behind the players on Saturday and do to Southampton what we did to Swansea. I expect at least a solid performance considering that we are at Goodison. COYB!
Keith Glazzard
60 Posted 27/09/2012 at 00:41:21Wow -'Boldly driving into the CL places and acclaimed nationwide as the "Peoples Champions" erstwhile "David vs Goliath" celebrities.'
and then 'the facts' -
'seasoned masters of the purple patch a "derby match" away from crawling back into our shell'.
And tonight's award for the Stuart Hall Soundalike Competition goes to ... wait for it ... BARRY RATHBURN (wild applause with whoops)
On your own logic, if there are 6 contenders, and we are 7th, how far away does that put us? Maths A level not required.
The fact of the matter is quite simply that since the January window last season (i.e. 2012) EFC have somehow managed to win almost as many Prem points as anyone else. I'll do the research for you tomorrow if your own prejudices or your very heavy workload won't allow you.
Assuming I'm right and you're wrong for the moment - the points will prove that one way or the other - that makes us a league team, not a cup team.
Perhaps you would prefer we were more like Warnock's Leeds United? Not me.
Jack Molloy
61 Posted 27/09/2012 at 03:36:00If this concept of deliberately dropping out of a competition the manager finds a meaningless distraction is so ridiculous, as some have suggested, then tell me this: how come he does it year after year with weakened sides?
Logic suggests that if you want to win, you put out the best team you can. We have Southampton at home coming up. Should be three points for the taking. Would he field a weakened team against them to "rest" players and give others match experience? No, of course not. Because he wants to win...
He did it against Leeds because he doesn't want to win. It's not like he was playing a team from way way down the league. Leeds are a tough, battling side, as Moyes knows. He just wanted to go out and have done.
I don't think it's a crime; I just wish people would be honest about it —and the League should be honest about it too and let clubs give the competition a pass.Brian Cleveland
62 Posted 27/09/2012 at 04:23:50
I was not only disappointed by the performance, but I also felt cheated. Round in his interview the day before basically said that we are taking the competition very seriously and won't make many changes, one or two maybe, but almost the same team as against Swansea..... so when I saw the starting lineup my immediate reaction was "What a fuckin liar!" — was it just psychology or what? And if so, for whose benefit? Trying to kid the opposition?It's great giving people their chance, but not all at the same time; integrate one or two and let them feel how the machinery works around them.... not just throw them to the lions without any armour. I felt this was a very naíve team selection.
Isn't it better to go out all guns blazing and, if things go well, give the others a run out when the game's safe?
Martin Mason
63 Posted 27/09/2012 at 06:48:49After the full round of games what is clear is that all of the EPL teams played weakened sides with at least 4 changes. Some did it better than others that's all.Brent Stephens
64 Posted 27/09/2012 at 07:02:07In terms of the merits of a manager's team selection, it's interesting that we made 6 changes from the weekend, LFC last night made 11 changes; we were playing a club from the Chumps League, LFC one from the Prima Donna League; we lost, LFC won.I haven't actually seen the names on the LFC team sheet, but how relevant is it, I wonder, that LFC might have been fielding a side most of whom were used to playing with each other, whereas we had a more equal mix of 1st and 2nd string players.
Brian Waring
65 Posted 27/09/2012 at 08:47:34what gets on my tits is how the prem teams don't take it serious to start with, but as soon as any of them reach the semi's, it all of a sudden becomes a good cup to win, so they then play their strongest team.If it was me, I would just turn it into a cup for the lower divisions.
Phil Walling
66 Posted 27/09/2012 at 09:00:46A glance at our Under 21 results will show we are not exactly graced with outstaning talent at that level. I have no idea if the RS are more fortunate but it would certainly appear so.Phil Walling
67 Posted 27/09/2012 at 09:04:25Meant to say that if Moyes couldn`t give a stuff about this trophy as is obviously the case,why does he ,year after year,bullshit us that it is important to him? The thousands who got conned into travelling to Leeds deserve better than having to watch a scratch X1.Truth is,the people in his People`s Club turned out to refer to him and The Nodding Round !Tony McNulty
68 Posted 27/09/2012 at 09:25:05Kev,I was being facetious of course.
On a serios note, I'm not one of those who believes, 'bad decisions all even out over the season'
Firstly, your chances of winning the National Lottery don't alter this week just because you played last week.
Secondly, some clubs get more of the marginal decisions than others - the Manure at home for instance.
Sam Hoare
69 Posted 27/09/2012 at 09:29:21I'm more worried by how easily our rivals second teams such as Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea seem to have dispatched their opposition in comparison to us. It proves again how much we are lacking in squad depth to them and that shortcoming is what will most likely prevent us from mounting a serious assault on a champions league spot.Martin Mason
70 Posted 27/09/2012 at 09:40:33I'm surprised that there's no comment about Leeds having been sold to Middle Eastern buyersMartin Mason
71 Posted 27/09/2012 at 09:41:29Perhaps what we've seen this week is what serious trouble we really are in despite the very thin veneer of a good first 11Dan McKie
72 Posted 27/09/2012 at 09:45:46Im surprised Gueye still gets anywhere near the first team. Seriously, has he ever had even close to a good game for us?I don't think it is fair to write Junior off, as that was a tough first game, as we knew Leeds would be physical in the middle. He will have learned a lot from his involvement.
Oviedo? Lets face it, what chance did he have playing off Gueye, who has managed to make Baines look average on numerous occasions when playing with him. It really is like Moyes gives Baines a Ferrari, and gave Oviedo a Fiesta for the same race.
Coleman has been well and truely found out, both going forward and coming back, cant wait until Hibbert is back!!
James Fletcher
73 Posted 27/09/2012 at 10:07:12People are claiming that the second string are at fault but from what I saw the first team regulars were just as culpable for that performance.Tony J Williams
74 Posted 27/09/2012 at 12:05:21It's all Moyes fault etc etc, Hibbert also, I mean we have won this cup how many times in 100+ years? It's all Moyes' fault.....repeat until fade....Tom Bowers
75 Posted 27/09/2012 at 13:30:52It's a competition like the FA Cup and gets you into Europe. The Red Shite have won it 8 times and are in Europe. If that isn't enough reason to go for it with the strongest team, I don't know what is.
After all, it's not like Everton have the distraction of any other games like some of the Prem clubs currently in Europe. Just doesn't make sense to me.
The league is just pandering to the bigger clubs by not exercising the laws properly.Brian Waring
76 Posted 27/09/2012 at 14:44:42Whats worrying, is we have had some lads say this is the best squad we have ever had.Barry Rathbone
77 Posted 27/09/2012 at 15:34:42Keith 399.I agree.
"BARRY RATHBURN" is a bloody nuisance .........
He is accurate though!
Martin Mason
78 Posted 28/09/2012 at 09:14:04When you think about it, what happens is logical and true to both the letter and spitit of the rules. Early in the competition the top teams all enter second teams with up to 11 changes. This gives the second tier teams a chance and the top teams often get bloody noses. The players are all squad players and so no rules are broken. Each round the teams left in get stronger and the benefit of staying in grows so each round the top teams put out stronger sides but in general err on the weak side. In the end a top team is very likely to win but the chances of a second tier team (Birmingham, Portsmouth) winning is higher than, for example, the FA cup. A lower league side has little or no chance of winning but a good chance of having a good run. This is (IMHO) far better for them than having a truly second class trophy that the top clubs don't enter at all.So, what Everton did was not only not illegal but absolutely in keeping with how the top clubs have agreed to play it. We lost to Leeds because our team was not good enough to beat a decent, hard working Leeds side on a particularly awful night in Yorkshire.
Phil Walling
79 Posted 28/09/2012 at 10:03:48Blaming the weather now,Martin? What a pity it only rained on the team in blue!Martin Mason
80 Posted 28/09/2012 at 10:07:13Definitely not Phil, just a description of the night which included the weather, the performance and for some just being in the Yorkshire wasteland.Christine Foster
81 Posted 28/09/2012 at 10:13:49Martin almost 100% agree with your last comments, the squad is too line and of insufficient quality or experience. Where l see it though is that David Moyes made a call to make wholesale changes against, what turned out to be tough opposition, which he must have expected.When you have a regular starting 11 playing well, you can often lose one or even two players without too much being lost but irrespective of them being squad players they do not may good replacements on mass.
What should of happened was a full team, if availble, work a couple of goals then make two or three changes. Instead the team looked as if they had never played together which they probably hadn,t.
The decision to make those changes was Moyes and that was an error of judgement. If they had won it wouldn't,t have mattered because they would of actually been good enough. They didn't,t because they weren't good enough without the support of experienced players.
The error of judgment highlighted the shortcomings in our squad.
Martin Mason
82 Posted 28/09/2012 at 10:27:40ChristineYes, they definitely got it wrong. I'm sure also that they were very surprised and now a bit worried about what it really means. To me it means that we are in trouble because the bargain buys that form our second tier are not good enough. Perhaps it'll be different if they can be introduced one at a time? The really worrying thing is that Liverpool's second string performance was apparently very good
I was very disappointed because it was a game that Everton should be winning although I must admit I've been up there many, many times only to see us beaten every time
Nelly Verdonghan
83 Posted 28/09/2012 at 11:14:20Christine #627....
"The error of judgment highlighted the shortcomings in our squad"...And unfortunately our manager.... and not for the first time I'm afraid.
Andy Meighan
84 Posted 28/09/2012 at 12:38:46Why do people always use that ridiculous line? "If he'd have played this player or that player and they would have got a serious injury, we would be in trouble." That could happen in any game – League Cup, FA Cup or Premier League games. If this was the case, we wouldn't be playing our better players at all for risk of serious injury
The fact is Moyes pissed on the chips at Leeds by making sweeping changes and changing the tactics that have served us so well in the first few games. As far as I'm concerned, he had nothing to lose by keeping virtually the same side as at Swansea. But no, he thinks he's smarter than us by changing it.
Doesn't he ever learn? And the answer to that is a big fat No. I'm dreading tomorrow's match because I reckon the mood around Finch Farm is going to be miserable...Tony J Williams
85 Posted 28/09/2012 at 19:43:16Learn what Alan? that us as fans see the cup as more than what he sees it at? I doubt he is that arsed.Why would the mood be miserable? The majority of the first team didn't play so why would they be dishearted?
I feel sorry for the traveling fans but if they expected to see a full team out there, they have obviously not been to a Carling cup game before.
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1 Posted 26/09/2012 at 06:08:01
We were playing Leeds – I didn't recognize any names in their lineup except for Tonge, Diouf and Ashdown. I really think our team that was set up should have won. Looking back, I can only blame Moyes for being too brash in making too many changes (some who read that would say he was “brave” and gambled but didn't pay off) – maybe two or three at the most; keep either the back four intact or the attack intact, not make changes across defence and attack at the same time. The players who were selected should also shoulder the blame. From what I read, this was a poorer performance for some of the same players who had been receiving high plaudits in the earlier weeks.
Also read both managers' post-match remarks:
Moyes: “These boys are in the squad and have to be able to show they can come in and play. If you don't use them, what's the point in having them? The players want to play and be involved”
Warnock: “They [Everton] wanted to win it - make no mistake - but I think we deserved it on the night”