The Italian 3-5-2

Hi Brendan!

I'm very new to the site and was actually considering posting a similar article; there are two reasons why I believe this is the formation best suited to the players we have available.

1) It would solve the centre-half conundrum. Every Evertonian has a different opinion on which of the two should play together and this would eliminate the problem. We would then have Heitinga's distribution, Jagielka's defensive nous and bravery, and finally Distin's pace and physique. This has the added bonus of increasing the aerial threat at either end of the pitch when compared to having the collectively small pairing of JH and PJ.

2) Width or lack thereof is something that I still don't believe we have fully addressed, as two of our most attacking players in Pienaar and Mirallas come inside a lot anyway. So our width would still be coming from the full backs and it is a role I feel both Coleman and Baines would be ideally suited to. The midfield three would then be three of Fellaini, Pienaar, Hitz, Osman, Neville, and Gibson. Thus leaving one striking berth with Jelavic and the candidates for that position would be Naismith, Anichebe and Mirallas.

Come up against a team with good wingers, like Spurs, and that's where such a system falls down.

Its not a bad idea, but you'll be surprised Brendan, that system has been posted once a year for ages.

I'd be worried if one of the centre backs get injured, Duffy then who else?

I quite like the formation Moyes is playing now to be fair. We just need all our players fit, so it looks a lot more fluid than it does at this present time

That was the next point I was going to make, Ben, we would then definitely need an experienced centre half as cover.

I agree with this system and would go with your 10 plus Mirallas, with Naismith, Anichebe, Osman and Neville for injuries, suspensions etc. We would then need to introduce the other players on a gradual basis – Duffy, Vellios etc.

These fringe players need to play; it's a Catch-22 with these guys: not enough experience, so they should not be tried... but you need experience to learn. We all don't learn driving by looking at the Highway Code, we learn from road time and experience; we don't learn to ride a bike by watching other kids, we get on, and fall off, and learn...

When players are not having a good day at the office, or just not on their game, others have to be introduced. This would put across two messages: there is competition and we can change things about.

I don't see the point of system failure if a team has pacey wingers, the full backs do their job. While Spurs have Bale, who is class, and a handful, Lennon has pace if not kept an eye on... but is predictable and, imo, is not very clever. He can be kept quiet by players doing their job.

Many other teams do not have an abundance of pace on both flanks. We would still need to get closer when defending than we currently do as to not give those with pace the first run.

This system suits lots of central midfielders and that is definitely not something we have right now. Maybe when Gibson and Fellaini return though as Danny says I would not want to play this against a team with strong wingers.

For the "Juve" system to succeed don't you need money?

wink, wink!

Don't watch a great deal of Italian football... who uses it? My impression was that lots of sides over there are using a 3-4-3 now (similar to the one Martinez uses with Wigan)?

My worry about 3-5-2 has always been a side playing 4-3-3 with wide forwards would expose you too easily. Maybe I should watch a bit of Italian football to see how they deal with it!

Sounds great in theory and I must admit I was thinking a similar idea.

However, in practice it can be completely different.

I also think Moyes is particulary stubborn and unlikely to chance anything so different!

I like it (certainly in theory) but think Matthew (734) has probably has it about right.

No.

I have thought the same.

The centre defence looks like it will concede goals with all players having pluses and negatives that makes perming 2 from 3 a waste of time.

The two full backs are more wing backs in my opinion, and would benefit playing 15 yards up the pitch to utilise their attacking dimension more. We also concede a lot of counter attack goals from full back positions, which an additional centre half could snuff out.

Most teams are playing with a 3 pronged attack, so why have a spare man at the back marking no one, when you can get him in midfield to match their 4-5-1 or out number them. We have the players to play this system and make it work, with Duffy, hibbert, and Neville providing cover, with Osman, Mirallas, or Fellaini able to play behind jelavic. 4-4-2 is dead, and the intelligent coach is the one that can overcome the current 4-3-3 vogue. I don't rate Martinez but his intelligent formation gets the most from limited players.

Graham (730) the best examples are probably the champions Juventus and their main contenders Napoli. They both used it at the weekend and interestingly cancelled each other out bar a defensive lapse and then a sublime Pogba volley.

Dortmund tried it out at the weekend without prior training and were beaten 2-1 by Schalke. I don't know if many of you like reading generally about things such as tactics but Zonal Marking is a great site:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/10/22/dortmund-1-2-schalke-klopp-takes-the-blame-as-shift-to-3-5-2-backfires/

(734) & (739) - I know it is unlikely but if Moyes is the manager of our club then I would want him running the fine comb over every possible alternative however unlikely that may seem. I would love to pick a top manger's brain, give him our squad of players and ask what he would do with it formation wise.

Although I cannot deny what Moyes has done, I am sometimes infuriated by his failure to prepare/execute a Plan B or even Plan C during a match. Swapping players or switching flanks sometimes isn't enough and I feel this is one of Moyes big coaching flaws.

Juve play in the Champions League tomorrow night for any of those interested in seeing the 3-5-2 and who have the Sky red button.

3 at the back is for classy teams with a good squad of quality players. We don't have the right people for it sadly.

Three at the back requires two things Everton lacks... blazing speed at the back, which Juve has, and midfielders like Pirlo who can hold the ball under any pressure, dribble free and distribute. Midfield turnovers are death to a 3-5-2.

Pienaar, Fellaini and Gibson can all win the ball and pass it, but none remotely holds the ball or distributes like Pirlo.

And neither Heitinga nor Jags is anywhere near pacey enough for a 3-at-the-back alignment. You need guys like Walker or Richards to pull it off.

I believe that when Everton, while in the attacking phase of play at the beginning of the season, were using this system (swap Heitinga for Neville and move Fellaini, Mirallas/Naismith combo), you would have the fullbacks overlapping, with Neville sitting deep and centre-halves as cover, wingers driving possession forwards, with Gibson as a backpass option and Fellaini and Jelavic as the battering ram.

Thanks Brendan - I though Napoli played the 3-4-3 system - need to start watching more Italian football, clearly! Would still be worried that against a 4-3-3 the wingers would expose us in wide areas.

Yeah Michael Cox (aka Zonal Marking) and Jonathan Wilson are more or less the only journalists that write match reports for domestic matches that are worth reading (in my opinion). They actually assess the match rather than telling you the story that surrounds it.

Oh, for analysis of Everton games, Executioner's Bong is always worth a read too...

I wouldn't want this formation. Nothing to do with its tactical pros and cons but purely for the fact that whenever we drew or lost the old 'Moyes plays 5 defenders' would be continually wheeled out. A bit like now in the way that if we win people say we've played 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and if we've lost it was yet another Moyes 4-5-1 at home.

For the 5-3-2 to work you need midfielders who are excellent at keeping the ball with short intricate passing and close control. Only Pienaar and Osman can do this for Everton really and no team in the world has a Pirlo figure, he is a one off special talent. Lamenting that Everton don't have this sort of player is a bit like complaining that some of our players aren't Messi (although I'm sure that's happened on here before as well)

Only pienaar and Osman can do this... You need quick defenders...

So basically we just need one more midfielder assuming Gibson can't do it and we're good to go? Whilst we have enough pace/height/physical presence in Distin and jags, to allow Heitinga to play as the man to bring the ball out if defence.

Frankly if he plays 2 up front who can score (Saha didn't), and we can keep it tight at the back (we look like a clean sheet is an issue), the fans will not say anything, other than another 3 points thanks very much. If we played with 2 wingers with chalk dust on their boots I could understand the reluctance, however all our better width comes from baines and Coleman.

It's not a bad idea, but I think we're more likely to see Moyes sporting arsesless chaps before he sets out a team in this way.