2013 – A Step Into the Known or Unknown?

That sort of team spirit isn't built overnight and long may it continue. I believe you're right that change for changes sake is not always the best policy and BK must be under significant pressure to release funds to buy new players or at the very least to ensure the players we have stay at the club.

Had David Moyes been a little more cavalier in his previous seasons many fans would not have such a negative opinion of him, when he first arrived from PNE his team did play open football even with the limited talents that those players had.

Maybe DM now realises that Everton are and always have been a club that does best when the team is an attacking one, Arsenal , RS and others have been able to be successful with defensive minded sides while I can't remember any Everton team having success playing in that manner.

But the problem of the future is that we really don't know what David Moyes wants for David Moyes, regardless of what is or isn't on the table regarding a new contract. My gut instinct is that he wants to stay and complete the job he has started, but if a financially better off club came in for his services he would think longer and harder about leaving, than he may have done in the past.

As has been the case for oh so many seasons, it is what is or isn't happening at boardroom level that will dictate the future of David Moyes and Everton FC, we as supporters will just have to hope that the future holds better days ahead, because we've had some pretty awful ones to endure during the last 10 - 15 years.

Stevie Me has laid down the challenge that he thinks it will be a battle between us and them for 4th place. If David Moyes can persuade his players that Everton are more than capable of 3rd place and he helps the side to achieve it, then whatever happens in the future he will have done an excellent job this season.

More importantly however, is the way we're playing and the results we're achieving. Although it's definitely happened in patches over the last few years I can't remember any period of such sustained attacking football and flare as we've witnessed this year. We don't seem afraid of anyone and go out to attack in each game, almost always coming away with the bulk of possession and chances (often by a long margin).

In some ways this might actually have counted against us on the results front, as games we could have held onto a niggly 1-0 by sitting back and hitting on the counter tend now to be more open. It's also very clearly true that we've not had much luck (Spurs and Liverpool aside) in terms of ref decisions, and had the calls gone our way (e.g. Two Newcastle goals ruled out, Wigan penalty turned down, QPR no-foul sending off of Pienaar, last minute non-free kick for Norwich) we could very easily be sitting as much as 8 points better off right now. That tally could be even higher with a bit more composure shown in front of goal (I count Reading and Fulham in particular as games we dominated large periods but failed to capitalise).

I could go on, but ultimately the point is that we're absolutely not in a false position right now, or if we are it's because we should actually be higher still. I personally think we're as good as any team in the league right now, certainly with our first 11, in terms of skill, form and crucially team spirit (something that Man City for all their millions will never be able to buy).

Clearly Moyes has to be credited as the central architect of this situation and the issue of whether someone else coming in could maintain or improve upon this (without any additional investment) seems to me to yield the answer of 'possibly, but probably not'. This, plus the fact I actually like the guy and his ethics of working hard and not tolerating twattish player behaviour (could you see Moyes putting up with Balotelli or Suarez?), mean I'd be very sad to see him go.

If the ginger one did decided to leave, which is entirely possible (I think the Newcastle job may be available, Spurs likely too, plus there's always the Utd role lingering - one year as number 2 for Alex's swansong and then step up), I think it's the young managers at West Brom, Norwich and Swansea that we'd have to look to. These guys have, like Moyes, proved they can compete without the advantage of massive budgets and the lure of regular European football and in some cases play some pretty good football too. I wouldn't say no to a Di Matteo or Poyet type either, but my worry would be that we'd end up being linked with the likes of Hughes or Big Sam both of whom would be massive backward steps.

"no relegation threat,
top-half finishes,"

are the only undisputed positives – the rest are either a statement of "givens" or criticisms – some disguised ("nomadic centre forwards"??).

People choose a baseline when evaluating Moyes. If it's the Wimbledon and Coventry relegation matches then he becomes the Moyesiah if you know more the word mediocre figures.

There is a fundamental shortcoming with Moyes it distinguishes the great from the ordinary and it's inspiration. His public utterances drain the will to live and nothing on the pitch suggests he does anything different in the dressing room. In his 10 years, I've hardly seen us play at full pelt, unencumbered, brazen and bold: Sunderland in the FA Cup, and the last 20 mins against Man Utd for 3-3 come to mind.. beyond that it's a struggle.

That's why some mention Di Canio and Holloway, mad as a box of frogs the pair of them but passion and therefore inspiration pours from them.

We've seen what Moyes provides, is quiet straight-line diligence really what fans want?

Holloway and Di Canio, would represent huge risks and in my mind would likely take us backwards.

I love a good nag about the blues but what has your comment (see below) got to do with David Moyes.

"People choose a baseline when evaluating Moyes. If it's the Wimbledon and Coventry relegation matches then he becomes the Moysiah if you know more the word mediocre figures."

Wimbledon game was played 1994 - Mike Walker was the boss.
Coventry was played 1998 - think Kendall (second session) was manager.

If you are going to slag him off pick games when he managed EFC, I'm sure you will find a few. However, I'm sure you've been supporting the Blues for quite a while so how can you NOT see an improvement since the mid 90's. Moyes gets very little dosh with BK probably requesting no more than keep us in the EPL - however, you can see that Moyes wants more and he try's like fuck to deliver.

Jesus wept.

I reckon the next 10-12 weeks will be make or break on David Moyes future at Everton and where we are in the league then and what went on in the January transfer window, particularly regarding players going out.

Always looking back on those relegation battles sends shudders down the spine of every blue. Most of us are just happy to be invited to the party – it doesn't matter if we can't get the girl.

Last season, after the Bolton game, I wanted to drive Moyes to any club in the world except Everton, we were shit and he admitted we were shit.

If we could get to the CL group stages next season, or actually win something, I will admit to being completely wrong about the man. If we finish 7th, and go out of the cups early, does anyone on here think he will improve this side from that point onwards?

There is no other manager in the world who is so well paid, and yet does not have to produce a winning team. Ten years of the full backing of the owners. No pressure to give us winning or even free-flowing football. Keep us up Dave, happy days.

For those who ask who we would replace him with, who was Moyes when he came to Everton? There are plenty of young, hungry managers out there who just need a chance — the same chance & backing Moyes has received all these years.

I'm not saying that Moyes is perfect or irreplaceable but whoever does come in will do well to match Moyes's league positions for Everton. Personally I would prefer someone with Premier League or La Liga, Serie A experience. I would say Martinez and Steve Clarke look like two of the better options though jury's still out on the latter.

I'm not his biggest fan, and the Shrewsbury result was a classic. But you have to admit what would he do with the budget of just 2 Kenny Dalgliesh signings (That's the budget, not Downing and Henderson).

The others –Liverpool, Spurs – could possibly spend £20 million in the January window to try to claim 4th spot. David Moyes will never have that luxury, so please give him some slack.

This I think will be the reason why David Moyes leaves in the summer. He may well have more to prove, and he won't be able to even try to achieve it with Kenwright still here. He's made mistakes but he's been working on a budget that no successful manager can work on. I wish him well if he does leave.

Why do people claim that Moyes has finally stumbled across exciting football that wasn't shown last season? Compare the two teams he had: we started last season with Heitinga in centre mid and Rodwell and Barkley on the wings with Beckford upfront. Now we have Mirallas/Pienaar, Gibson and Jelavic in those positions.

Players dictate how the game is played, if you have bad players you can't play good football. If you think that a Di Canio or Holloway has firstly the ability to turn Everton of August 2011 into Everton December 2012 in such a short time-frame, or the clout to beat off Arsenal for Mirallas, to get Pienaar back, to keep Fellaini and Baines, then you have far more faith in their abilities than I do.

Transfer wise, what Moyes has done in these last 12 months has been miraculous. I'd love to see what other managers would do with no money and their best players being sold... Probably what most other managers do: whine for more money and more transfers.

He is well paid because of his longevity, there is someone in my department who is fecking useless but because they have been here a lot longer than other, better workers, they are paid far more than them. He has been here for over 10 years, so you expect his wages will reflect that, also he overachieved initially and was rewarded with a bumper contract. Yes, he is paid too much, but then again so is everyone involved in Premier League football.

Secondly, please don't mention Arsenal, minus net spend and CL football for the past 13 seasons – numerous trophies. If what Moyes has achieved is "miraculous" then there are no words to describe Wenger's achievements.

Next time you have a minute, click on Bluekipper: "If Moyes goes we will be relegated within a season" — The very definition of a fanbase happy to be in the Premier League, and some on here BTW.

The manager said we were crap after having 10 whole seasons to model a team who will play to his footballing philosophy.

I think I am fair in my assessment of how we play, and any good points Moyes has, such as his transfer record. But even when he said he wouldn't watch his own team, people chose to ignore these facts. Supporters are too ready to throw in the relegation argument – even though this has no relevance to how much we pay our first team now, and the unwavering support the manger receives from the most unambitious board in the PL.

I am still sticking by my assertion that Moyes has changed to a more attacking style of play because he wasn't offered the Spurs job. I might be wrong but hey-ho. I think he is desperate for a really big job, such as Man Utd, but knows his playing style won't get him a look-in.

In fact, I would go as far to say that ole Whisky nose has even pointed that out to him.

I don't think bluekipper is representative of the fanbase at large (in the same way that this site isn't) and it only takes one idiot to post a thread title. You could state the argument that if Moyes went and the wrong person came in, we could get relegated; equally if he went and someone new came in, we could get Champions League.

I didn't say you mentioned any managers, that was addressing others on the thread. As for Arsenal, it is again back to the cycles of team as to where they are. Wenger was a genius to make his title-winning teams no doubt, but from then on it is the easiest thing in the world to sell off top talent and buy in lesser talent to boost the net profit sheet. It is far harder to sell a Bilyaletdinov and buy a Jelavic. The fact that we're anywhere near an Arsenal, who have spent 13 years in the Champions League, just shows that this new version of Wenger is far from miraculous considering what he has at his disposal.

Even aside from the debate over the merits of Wenger, the simple truth is that Tottenham, Liverpool and Arsenal can offer European football, better wages, and a more exciting name for foreign and British players. Despite this we still, for the moment, sit ahead of all of them in the league. That is surely a testament to Moyes's ability as a manager.

I agree he is good manager – with a lot of help from the club, and under no pressure to succeed, ie, win something. He is also an extremely rich man because of Everton FC.

We bring out a DVD if we beat Liverpool, that's where we are in 2012.

Fans just chose to ignore any of his bad points, even if the man himself spells it out for them.

You compare building a trophy winning side (though not recently) when you have TWO to THREE times (currently £143 million) the wages budget to employ more and better players with what Moyes has achieved from about as far down the league table as it was possible to get while still avoiding relegation.

Current league position suggests Moyes's is the finer achievement, no question. Could either man do the other's job with the other's budget? Probably.

Barmy

Also, in the last 7 years, Wenger has won the same as Moyes.... absolutely zilch. A good reason why is probably because he has been unable to buy, buy, buy... and that he is tight.

That's not barmy my friend, that's THE most ridiculous statement I have ever heard from any footbal fan.... ever..... well done.

I would class myself as a Moyes fan - I think he consistently does a very good job for us and am not sure that any manager would have done significantly better over the past 10 years in the same circumstances - but I'm not blind.

Sometimes his substitutions infuriate me, I've never understood his patience with Anichebe or his willingness to use him out wide, I think he wasted too much of the Lescott money, I think he has (at times) been guilty of negative tactics and I think he kept Cahill in the side for too long. That's just a few of the issues I have with his management, but I know Liverpool, United, City, Arsenal, Tottenham fans etc who all have similar issues with their managers so I don't just assume that somebody new would be better.

I would also say that the original post, James and Tony J have all given balanced reasons as to why they would like Moyes to stay, rather than 'ignoring his bad points'.

You hear a lot about a 4th place finish - but nothing about our lowest ever points total in the Premier League, finishing one place away from being relegated.

Some of the football has been ultra-cautious in my opinion. His record away to certain teams is astoundingly bad because of ths negativity.

To balance that point though - we have a good record at home to most of those teams.

It's getting on my tits he thinks he can leave us swinging on a new contract - he has won fuck all yet. I think he should be begging us to sign a £3m or more per season contract, at one of the biggest clubs in English football.

No one of note will come to us, they won't be offered the same money that Moyes is on and they will know that they will have to sell to buy and the ones who are happy with that for a pay day, do we really want them?

11 years is a long time at a club, I agree with James's point about football being cyclical and I think he knows this season is the best chance of doing something big. If it all goes wrong it's likely Fellaini will go and maybe others, I just don't think he wants to start all over again - again!

I agree that it's unlikely he'll get a job like United because he lacks experience of winning things and Champions League pedigree but surely we can all recognise he wouldn't struggle for offers. I live in North London and I can tell you now that there are many, many Arsenal fans who think he would be their ideal manager.

Finally with regards to the 4th/17th point I think you hear just as much about both on this site, but in general most people will point to the 17th being a complete anomaly with the 4th as only slightly above the average.

Bravo, bravo and
("..if a big club had won the Carling Cup, we would have had Europe last year") bravo (hehe).

Great post

You are sticking to your guns regarding Moyes, fair enough, and you seem to use a common point that numerous fans (majority or minority - fuck knows) think that Moyes is a magician because he delivers top half of the table for the mighty blues.

You even mention a DVD about the mightly royal blues beating the RS as a dig against Moyes, fuck, I doubt he's ever been into the EFC's marketing department.

I can tell you I sit in the main stand about 15 rows up from Moyes and if I think he stinks I let him know, as do most of the fans around me. Fuck I even called him a stupid cunt once, he heard, stared back at where I was sitting and I shat myself.

What you don't do Kevin is give him a break - the man at times is fucking genius, take a look at the Spurs game. He takes off Osman sticks on Vellios, tells the team to go more direct and hay ho two fucking goals.

No doubt you are going rabbit on about the last years RS game or some other game where he fucked up his subs or made them way, way, way to late - but that just shows that you are not giving the guy an equal throw of the dice. By all means slag him off with his nick 1 and then hold on for dear fucking life - though if I remember we finished 5th in the EPL, with the 4th lowest net spend in the league, playing that way. Fuck, a lot of chairman would be wanking for that kind of form.

Seriously, though – the man is a good manager, but I could never bring myself to describe him as a genius.

BTW, the DVD dig was having a go at the club's small-time mentality – not directed at DM at all.

I don't think the board backing him or not with funds will make that much of a difference to the decision - we're skint and everyone knows it, as does he. The board can't magic cash out of thin air (although the new sky deal should mean more cash next year) so he's not exactly in a position to make any ultimatums re transfer funds.

No Mr Moyes can sit pretty and play a wait and see game. To be honest I would do exactly the same if I was in his shoes....why should he commit now when he knows the offer will still be on the table in 6 months time....probably more desperate and with more cash.

As to what I want - I'll make my mind up at the end of the season. Prior to this season I've wanted him gone for at least the last 3 years. This season has seen something of a change in approach - however a leopard never changes its spots and all that so I find myself waiting for us to go back to the shite from before at any moment. If he brings Cahill back that would be akin to the McRooney signing from last year!

One game at a time....if he does sign another contract, I will be keen to see if he takes a 20% pay cut!

Will wait and see if we make it to CL this year - I don't think we will simply because our squad is too thin - but ya never know...

"Wimbledon game was played 1994 - Mike Walker was the boss.
Coventry was played 1998 - think Kendall (second session) was manager.

If you are going to slag him off pick games when he managed EFC,"

Have you seen what David Price wrote?

" miles better than worrying when we might get to 40 points in too many seasons since 1992."

Hope you're going to tell him off for eulogising the Moyes bar by referring to 1992 - SCANDALOUS!

What other jobs are available that would interest him? Spurs and Newcastle have managers on long term contracts and are doing ok so I cant see them coming in for Moyes, it would have to be the Man utd job or one of the other top 4 clubs but I cant see them being available at the end of the season. I see those jobs as a poison chalice anyway I think Moyes is smart enough to stay away from them. Know body will ever live up to Ferguson and the fans will revolt at the first sign of doom and gloom.

We must keep Moyes at all costs, he is the golden goose that lays the golden egg. For every top player that has left, Moyes has usually replaced them with someone better, I would not trust another manager to buy as well with such a small amount of money. If we don’t make the top 4 it want be the end of the world as long as Moyes stays, we will sell Fellaini and Moyes will be able to rebuild. If I was another manager in the prem I would not dare buy Fellaini as I would be too scared to see what Moyes is able to do with the money.

Those who mention other managers that could do a better job that we could realistically attract are either brain dead or delusional. Every manager that has been put forward on this site as a better manager than Moyes has either been sacked or relegated within 18 months. Lambert is the last one hanging in there. As for talk of the other young managers at the likes of Swansea, lets not be deceived, he has taken over a decent side built by a couple of other decent managers. One half decent half a season does not show he can be compared with what Moyes has done over a 10 year period.

Arsenal's wage bill is something like double Everton's. If we had their revenue we would not have lost Pienaar or Arteta. We would have hung on longer to Rooney (and maybe kept him or sold him for a lot more than we did). We would have been able to get Ramsey for a steal from Cardiff. There would be no talk of departures of Fellaini or Baines. Frankly we would have been regulars in the Champions League just like Arsenal (or perhaps instead of them).

Wenger hasn't always had big money at Arsenal either. He identified foreign talent and picked them up for buttons. Anelka, Henry and Bergkamp to name a few.

I am not judging Moyes's record against Arsenal, I am pointing out the difference between a great manager compared to a good manager, as some believe Moyes is a visionary.

One question - how would you describe Moyes to your Grandkids? Oooohh, now there was an Everton great, we even got to a Cup Final one year.

Even if Arsenal were to be relegated this season, Wenger has enabled that club to build a new ground on the back of his success - whilst setting records on the way.

Maybe we agree - I would rate Wenger as a better manager than Moyes. But then I would rate Wenger as in the top 3 in the Prem. And he has taken them up a level compared to their previous manager who was Bruce Rioch who was sacked after finishing a then fairly respectable 7th.

If you not comparing Everton vs Arsenal as the same starting point then again we agree. But the real correlation between money and success is in the size of the wage bill, not the net transfer spend (which has a very poor correlation wtih success). Wenger knows this which is why he spends his money on wages not transfer fees. Another reason why in my view he is one of the best around.

But I am still pleased we have Moyes and I would be very nervous if he left (but life goes on).

Wenger did not sign Bergkamp, I think Bruce Rioch signed him.

It did mean that Everton could use the "he took a pay cut" to paint the player as being that desperate to leave, when in fact he was quite happy to stay.

Arsenal have traditionally balanced wages against transfer fees. They won't go silly a la Chelsea, City or to a lesser extent Man U, but they can pay considerably more than almost all the other teams.

£135m cash at hand, more than half of the stadium debt paid down.

The "trouble" they are in is mainly of their own making, but also in part because they built a team of egotistical money merchants.

One thing I will always give Moyes credit for is the team spirit in the dressing room. I believe that is down to him, as I don't believe he would tolerate any big-time charlies.

If you look at Jelavic's reaction after scoring, and after being subbed. Hard to imagine the same things at somewhere like Man City or Chelsea?

I still think we are a big enough club to be in the running to win trophies. Not consider a Carling Cup semi-final listed by some as some great managerial feat.

The whole point of supporting any team is to win something.Finishing 7th may be celebrated by this generation of fans, but I think we deserve, and can do better.

If the fans, the board,the manager and the players see 7th as a successful season - then what hope have we got?

A lot of people may say get real - we have got no money. I would ask them to watch the recent documentary about Mourinho, and his time at F.C. Porto.

Every time Moyes needs to shake things up, he has to hope for a big sale (like Lescott or Rodwell to Man City) where we look like there was nothing we could do, or they have to engineer something a la Arteta that frees up wages and funds for improvement.

I believe we won't sustain a serious league attempt with this board in charge, but I do think we can and should be competing for the CL qualifying places, on the assumption that at least 1 of the expected top 4 has an off season.

Also, cup games are one offs, and as has been proven time and time again, anyone can beat anyone else on the day.

7th isn't celebrated, it is seen as a decent finish after recovering from a terrible start. It is not successful, it is ok but we certainly need to do better.

Mourinho is a once in a generation manager, he has that something special but its not as if Porto are relative minnows in their league is it? They finished second the year before he arrived.

In 1996, Wenger was named manager of Arsenal and two years later the club completed a league and FA Cup double. He led Arsenal to appearances in the 2000 Uefa Cup Final and 2001 FA Cup Final, and a second league and cup double in 2002. Arsenal retained the FA Cup in 2003 and a year later regained the league title, becoming the first club to go through an entire league season undefeated since Preston North End, 115 years previously. The team later eclipsed Nottingham Forest's record of 42 league matches unbeaten and went seven more matches before losing in October 2004. Arsenal made their first appearance in a Champions League final in 2006, though they lost to Barcelona. In 2012, the club qualified for a fifteenth successive season in the Champions League, despite their worst start to a season for 58 years. During his tenure, Arsenal moved to a new training centre and relocated to the Emirates Stadium in August 2006, after 93 years at Highbury.

No-one in their right mind would think Moyes was a better manager than Wenger, but it seems like you are trying to champion a man who, by many Toffeewebers own definition, is a loser. He has been a loser for 7 years...apparently

I am merely pointing out what I believe to be what a great manager's record looks something like.

I will repeat this again, for the 4th or 5th time in recent threads; I want Moyes to sign a new contract, based upon the last 10 months. He should be very grateful a deal is there for him. If he does not want to be here, well fuck him. I sincerely believe he has reached his ceiling with Everton. It will be his loss — not ours.

If Moyes gets us a CL spot it would be pretty miraculous. I cant think of a single example, really since the last time we did it, were a club outside the moneyed elite has been in the top four. Even Spurs' success a couple of years ago was on the back of massive spending by Harry.

True for Anelka, but signing Henry from Juventus for nearly £11m in 1999 a year after he won the world cup is hardly the best example. Nor is someone Bruce Rioch signed for £7.5m in 1995.

Toure - 150k - sold for £16m, Anelka £500k - sold for £22m, Overmars £7m - sold for £25m, Fabregas - £500k sold for £35m, Van Persie £2.5m sold for £24m.

Even though Henry cost £11m, he still made another £5m when he sold him.

That's one quick search. But you miss the whole point Noel, look at the football & the trophies during his time there.

Firstly, why do you refer to a lot of blues as deluded - they only see Moyes in a different light to you. That don't make them deluded!!

Secondly, Moyes and will he go or will he stay?? If you read some of his statements particuarly anything Prentice gets off him in the echo, then you may see more of what he's trying to say.

Personally, I think Moyes will take time out if he does not get sufficient transfer funds come January or next summer - he knows he's close to a good team and wants BK to open his fucking pockets or get someone in who will. Moyes consistently talks about fans (i.e. me, you and every other blue) needing a break after tens year, maybe getting sick of each other. Like I say I don't think Moyes is that interested in going elsewhere, for fuck sake the guy is minted and he is also quite young, so a year or two out wont bother him.

I guess Moyes is trying to say to BK - I'm sick of busting a gut keeping the blues as high as I can when you give me fuck all cash.

And Kevin, your reference to Arsenal and the Wenger - Moyes sparring match is losing weight. Why don't we include almost every other EPL team who spend more than us (which is every fucking team) and spar the managers against each other then. Pardew - Moyes, VBD - Moyes, Rodgers - Moyes, Big Sam - Moyes, Pulis - Moyes and O'neil - Moyes. I know who I would want in the hot seat.

But to keep this going a bit longer, and look busy :-} do you know whose record stands up well next to Moyes? Big fat Sam actually.

Top six finish - check. Last 16 Europa league- check. Cup Final - check. Even less money than Moyes - check. Shitty football - check.

From Wiki ;

Bolton went top of the Premiership after gaining ten points from the first four games of the 2001–02 campaign. However, the Bolton squad was not strong enough to mount a sustained challenge and their safety was not ensured until the penultimate game of the season. They continued to struggle in 2002–03, avoiding relegation by just two points and one place.

After two years in the bottom half of the table, Bolton substantially improved, and established themselves in the Premiership. The 2003–04 season saw Allardyce's side finish eighth and reach the League Cup final, losing 2–1 to Middlesbrough.

2004–05 saw Allardyce and Bolton finish sixth to win qualification in the UEFA Cup for the first time in the club's history, equal on points with 2005 UEFA Champions League victors Liverpool. In the early months of 2005–06, Allardyce once again took Bolton into the top half of the Premiership and also steered them into the knockout rounds of the UEFA Cup. Bolton eventually finished eighth that season.

I would obviously rather have Moyes, but the record books show the same amount or European football and trophies.

I don't think any of our fans are celebrating finishing 6th or 7th, but I think that they are recognising what a good job Moyes is doing by finishing so high on a limited budget. Yes it would be nice to be able to list what trophies he has won while at Everton and I am sure nobody regrets that more than Moyes himself.

But rather than comparing him with Wenger compare him against managers with a similar transfer kitty, both in transfer fees and wages and he comes out top over a 10 year period. Also how many of his predecessors as Everton manager have won things, you may be surprised to see how few have won trophies. The other thing to remember is that of our managers who did win things most had vastly bigger war chests than Moyes.

Big Sam managing the blues. Fuckinhell. Deluded is not the word I'm looking for, its more like what the fuck. Well I suppose Big Dunc would be happy as we all know Allardyce would have him straight out of retirement.

01/02:-Avoided relegation by the skin of their teeth
02/03:-Avoided relegation by the skin of their teeth
03/04:-Finished 8th
04/05:-Finished 6th
05/06:-Finished 8th

We can only dream....

Whenever you compare other managers to Moyes, people say " That's not fair comparing him to someone who has won loads, compare him with all the shit ones."

O.K. - My pick for next manager of Everton F.C. is........Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. He has won the league two years on the bounce in Norway with Molde, winning their first ever League title in 2011.

A Man Utd fan I know was raving about him when he was managing their reserve side years ago.

He could be the next Wenger. I doubt our board are even planning for a successor though.

Arsene Wenger has been a terrific manager, theres no doubt about it, but who can really know whether Moyes would have achieved something comparable with the same resources? If he'd inherited a side with the famous back 5, aswell as people like Bergkamp and Wright then maybe he would have had a go. Unfortunately he took over a team with such luminaries as Alexandersson, Simonsen and Steve Watson.

Same with the budget, it's all very well saying Fabregas was signed for £500k but he was rated as Barcelona's best prospect at the time of the move and plenty of clubs would have signed him i'm sure. A combination of Barca not being able to offer him pro terms, Arsenal paying him good wages and the opportunity to play in the champions league and live in London is what allowed Wenger to get him, none of which we could offer.

If you look at Arsenal's recent transfer dealings they're not spectacularly impressive and despite the negative net spend they've spent a fair bit aswell. Would you have paid £10m for the Arteta of 2011? I know I wouldn't.

I agree it's wrong to to call Evertonians deluded when they say that Moyes may have had the same success if he'd have gone to Arsenal.

I'd say they know fuck all about football though.

Personally, while agreeing that Wenger is an excellent manager, i'm not sure that he really did revolutionise football here. I think maybe he came in at a time when things were changing anyway and he just happened to be at the forefront of it rather than actually instigating it. The influx of foreign footballers was a key to Wenger's success and this had just started to escalate when Wenger came in. The European style that Wenger favoured was relatively new to England but not revolutionary, Ardiles, Hoddle etc had already put similar models in place.

I'm not one for personal insults so I won't stoop to your level but if you think winning the Norwegian league and your mate thinking he did well with a reserve team is evidence that somebody could 'revolutionise english football' I'll probably not take too much stock in your opinion of my football knowledge.

They were literally playing in a league above everyone else in terms of competition, income and transfer pool.

Moyes finishing 5ths and 6ths may have been best of the rest but it was nigh on impossible to reach those loftier positions. On he and recently Spurs broke that glass ceiling, and more through the shambles happening over the park than raising their game. In fact you could argue Spurs raised their game but only through the kind of investment that would otherwise be reserved for a CL team.

Barry, I think it was, said above that that's just mediocrity, it isn't, it was the nature of the league to have kept those teams where they were for so long, and only a massively expensive stadium for Arsenal, manager culling for Chelsea and a Rafa, Hodgeson, Dalglish nightmare for Liverpool have blown those positions wide open this season.

I wrote this article and I now feel like you've dominated it with your Wenger is better than Moyes debate. Get your own thread! ;0)

In all seriousness, nobody would doubt Wenger is or was better than Moyes but comparing them is not right or relative. In the early 1990's we were reasonably comparable to Arsenal in terms of support, budget and trophies. How that has changed!

As you say, Wenger came in and got Arsenal back on track. Yet he did it with a defence that had been put together by George Graham and had won leagues before. That part of the pitch ran itself. Therefore some clever signings in the midfield and up front and off he went. What Arsenal achieved in 1998 was excellent but they did it when other sides were weak. Utd were in transition and Newcastle were in the usual state of confusion.

At that point he was a true innovative figure in English football.

Yet you cannot compare Moyes with him. Moyes is only a couple of years older than Wenger was all those years ago so you are judging an older manager's performance against someone 13 or 14 years his junior.

Most pertinently, Wenger took over a team you were top 6 material. Moyes took over a motley crew of relegation candidates.

All that said, I would rather see our players interact with the bench like they did on Sunday than look like a bunch of spoilt schoolboys under the tutelage of the older Professor which is the current Gunner model.

Lastly Kevin, you should ask MK if he will give you a cut of the advertising revenue from the site given that you ran this thread for about a day longer than it should have gone!

Wenger has won several trophies, generally playing attacking, attractive football. I'm not (nor is anyone else) debating that or missing that point.

The point I am debating is your assertion that he hasn't had money to spend. That's because he has, regardless of how much he sold players on for. He also inherited a team with the strongest back five of its generation, a genius in Bergkamp and one of England's most natural finishers in decades (Wright).

Wenger's achievements have been rightly lauded but to imply he build that team from scratch on very little budget is simply not accurate. He has also been able to afford some expensive flops – Jeffers is one that springs to mind in a team that had Wiltord, Henry and Bergkamp – because of Arsenal's budget.

Purely hypothetical but if his and Moyes's roles / career paths were reversed, it would be interesting to see who would end up winning what. My own opinion is that Moyes would have had a few trophies to his name.