EFC Ownership — do we care anymore?

After watching the pathetic penguins applauding Kenwright last year, I gave up trying to put forward my views on a deceiptful buffoon of a man who does not have the morality to be Chairman of any club — let alone Everton.

However, I'm thinking Moyes may bring this era to a sorry conclusion at the end of this season and then Kenwright's support will quickly diminish, regrettably preceded by the club's demise.

I can feel myself rambling on now and Colin puts his feelings together far better than I do, but it makes me feel numb inside that such a large proportion of us let this fake get away with running our club into the ground off the pitch, in politics they say a country gets the leader it deserves. I hope one day that all those happy clappers don't have to take a long look in the mirror and think about what they have allowed this regime to do. I know a great many of us will be able to hold our heads up and say we tried to tell you and the evidence was right before your eyes.

if Bill regards Everton in the same way as he regards his theatre productions, i.e. fill the seats, put on a passable production and don't worry too much about the quality of the cast, then he has to realise that Everton FC aren't a one-off, here today gone tomorrow production and deserve far far more consideration.

Only time will tell whether Bill has been good or bad for Everton FC, but you would have thought after 13 years in the hot-seat we would have had a clearer idea.

They were discussing the future of Moyes and looking at the game today.

The football writer from the Sunday Express, John Richardson, who covers the North-West came out with the following shite:

"Bill Kenwright puts absolutely every single penny he has into that club to help David Moyes."

How the fuck can anyone concerned with the football world get something so badly wrong?

Is the press hospitality that good at Goodison? Are the press barred for daring to tell the truth?

We know Echo journalists have been banned for probing into the club's affairs, but I find it astonishing the truth has not been published in a national newspaper.

Look at the scrutiny that Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham and Liverpool get when the results go awry, the press are all over them, maybe not LFC this season as they are in a transitional phase. Compare that to what Everton's coverage is likely to be, 'only to be expected given the financial constraints', 'they have been punching above their weight 'etc etc.

With this in mind is it any wonder that the Everton board of directors are given a fairly easy ride as regards press scrutiny. We have had a better press for our performances this season, but I'll know that EFC has truly arrived at the top table when the football writers sharpen their pencils and start looking for bad news stories.

It takes a brave person to stick their head above the parapet to show others what's happening outside their own little bubble and I for one heartily applaud KEIOC, The Blue Union, The People's Group and anyone else who is prepared to fight for OUR ONCE GREAT CLUB.

The question now has to be, do the owners of said websites and the "stalwarts of the local free press" want to stick their heads up or do they want to remain in their bubbles? I hope it's the former and the encouraging signs are there to see with TW; so far...

If only you knew a little bit of history.

@TyrrellPaul: @johnmerro1 @sgwtaylor I know who David Tolman is, but who is richard Tolman? And we re not involved in any discussions with David Tolman.

@TyrrellPaul: @shaunsmithefc sorry Shaun. i/we have not heard of him - and there are currently no new developments in relation to investment.

So we can all breathe easy as our buffoon of a chairman and band of merry men continue to do.... Whatever it is they do. Which as far as I can see is absolutely nothing at all. Disgraceful in my opinion.

It's become a pastime rather than a passion.

At Arsenal yesterday the commentator mused about hordes of fans leaving early it was 6-3 a blinding game and sure enough Arsenal scored again, never used to happen.

The unassailable "it's all about money" needs breaking by a club from the pack - Southampton, Swansea, us!

Until then this generation will continue to echo the fraudulent assertions of managers and media their youth oblivious to what's really happening.

"Prioritising" games, selecting your second 11 is not trying your best but the obscenity is justified by said motley crew because the truth would eat at the root of the money tree.

Yes Evertonians don't care enough, but the reality is seeing Lineker sold and Kendal tripping off to spain made some look suspiciously at the club. The likes of Agent Johnson, Kenwright, Moyes and Rooney just look worse with every historical revelation.

The consolation, if that's the right word, is every club is the same.

Chelsea didn't beat us today.... Bill did, and Bobby Earl and the rest of them.

They have been beating us for years....

Throw us a fish.....

Clap clap clap.....

No, we don't care enough.....

Do we think stamping our feet and having a tantrum, with cake, will make one iota of difference on this board? No

We don't have to agree with Colin Fitzpatrick to care about the club. It really isn't 'with us or against us' despite some here seeming to think so!

Until we know those details in full, a mistrust of the board will continue to fester, surely it is better to raise these concerns when things are going fairly well on the pitch, because if we wait for the results to go bad and then start criticising the board, many people will accuse the 'alarmists' as having an agenda against the club itself and undermining the team on the pitch.

For many of us there is never a good time to question the motives and leadership of the board, but as Gavin quite rightly said it is incumbent on current Evertonians to ensure that the club is run in the correct manner and we are duty bound to preserve the club so that future generations can enjoy the same privileges of being Everton supporters.

I agree that it is difficult to know how to tackle the current situation, but that doesn't give us the right to bury our heads in the sand and ignore it and hope the problem goes away all by itself.

We are not mushrooms, we don't like being kept in the dark. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

Michael Kenrick, this photo is EXACTLY what I was talking about earlier.

I fell off my seat today reading Elstone in the programme saying we’re a well run club and talking about awards won by Everton in the Community proved it. Sounds like a drowning man clutching at anything – a bit like a couple of posters on ToffeeWeb to be honest.

with colin looking like throwing his hand in, I suppose we can rely on the shareholders and the Fans Forum to stand up for the ordinary fans...
[shakes head and goes to bed.]

Apart from appointing Moyes, which was Walter's idea, what's Bill Kenwright ever done for us?

Off you go, Pengiuns.

You misunderstand. I was not saying that Colin is having a tantrum here.

I'm saying that protest marches seemed the only thing on offer from the Blue Union/KEIOC (i.e Colin's) direction in recent times. Amounting to little more than tantrums from a modest percentage of the matchday fanbase. There appears to be some upset that this didn't attract more support and that we were all guilty of propping up the board because of it!.

Me, I find the idea there that we either do things "Colin's way" or we are in some way "bad Evertonians" laughable. I accept that's not 'on message' for this site though and that, if I don't immediately say 'I hate the board' three times I am a stooge, sycophant, apologist and belong on Kipper!.

There just seems to be a pool of Evertonians (some heartfelt ones at that) that are under-represented here... these are ones that want no part of the current, undeniably failed, board but don't see what, real, constructive options the Blue Union/KEIOC offer and don't feel they speak for them. Colin's piece seemed dismissive of some good, solid Evertonians, whose opinion on the correct way forward differs — and that is out of order.

We've given publicity and space to a variety of groups such as Goodison for Ever-ton, Investors in Everton, and Everton Fans Trust. More recently, we gave lots of coverage to KEIOC's efforts to tell Evertonians the inconvenient truth about Destination Kirkby, and we published and discussed numerous initiatives by Blue Union. We are also right behind Tony I'Anson's efforts to promote Trust Everton, although that seems to be taking a long time to reach fruition.

So you can understand, with this history, that I might get a little prickly when you say you "hope the tide is turning with those who control Independent EFC fan websites like TW." I won't speak of other sites but that insinuation re TW is way off base.

Now Steve, if you want to offer some sort of third way, I'm willing to listen, but I have not seen or heard of it. The only alternatives have come from the BU/KEIOC section of the fanbase that you decry for having a tantrum. I'm going to ignore the ideas emanating from Elstone for reasons that you have probably heard many times.

Like Colin I'm exasperated and had my fill of discussing the same issue with fans that are unwilling to discuss the issues affecting the club's long-term future and getting nothing but abuse served up with dissembling and evasive BS in return. It drives you crazy and, like Colin, I would rather do something else with my life.

The fact is that we have been enjoying some success so far this season and so some of the shrill criticisms and anger of seasons past have been somewhat muted, which makes me wonder why this has been raised again now in such divisive form?

In truth, Kenwright may not want to let go of the club. I can't really blame him for that although I doubt he is turning legitimate big money investors away. Perhaps a top four finish will attract an investor who thought previous performances suggested too much work and money was necessary to improve matters. I hope so.

The fact Kenwright's critics often forget is that Everton has not been an especially attractive buy in recent years. We have been loaded down with debt, unattractive mediocrities on the field, located in a shrinking city dominated until recently by another club – and in a stadium needing at the very least a massive overhaul. Oh, and fans who think they already own "The People's Club". Not a great ad.

Things are improving – slowly, too slowly. I do still care who owns the club, but I care more that we are playing some of the most attractive attacking football we have played for years and we are fighting for a place in the Champions League. I'll take that for now. That doesn't make me an apologist for Kenwright or a 'naysayer', whatever that means in this context.

Or in short, the Greatest Evertonian and his cohorts are looking to make a fucking great big profit?

Bearing in mind the claims down the years that ours was the original leveraged buyout, with club debt jumping by £20+ million in the year after the £20+ million purchase from Johnson et al, I'm (not) surprised that more haven't questioned the motives of the larger shareholders. I wouldn't be against them making a small return, but given their apparent absence of actual direct injection of their own money, I begin to wonder whether it's people really liking a "chancer" doing well for himself, even if it is ultimately at our football club's expense?

What has happened to the Blue Union? Broken up by the apathy toward real change at our Club? I hope not. Perversely the team's great performances on the pitch this year could end up contributing to the longer term demise of EFC by suppressing criticism of the Board and BK in particular.

Bill, Woods and Earl haven't put a penny into EFC and this Transfer window represents a real chance to improve the squad and push on

It wont happen and never will and Kevin Tully 048, John Richardson is a friend of Kenwright and always spouts off about him giving blood to EFC

But if fans want to clap and cheer a man who hasn't invested anything into EFC and cannot understand how 20+ Million disappears under "other operating costs" well.....................

You said: "What I do find objectionable is your infantilisation of Colin and the BU supporters, ie, 'Tantrums'. After 13 years of failure, lies, and the Kirkby con, we have a lot to be angry about and in truth it's been rather restrained."

Dont you understand though, that to many, infantile was exactly the way those protests came across...just as the ones at Newcastle, Anfield and Blackburn did?.

They may have served to allow angry fans to vent, but, to fans who wanted a more constructive answer to their clubs problems or those who got to the despondent stage a bit before Colin and yourself there would be little support. Colin appealed to angry fans...still does....his problem is that, despite the best efforts to stoke up anger, most of the fanbase wants to see a credible plan to move us forward....not a thousand angry fans and a cake.

Give them something constructive to rally behind and the fans will be there, but, don't go having a strop when people see that you are offering nothing and that the only comeback is 'well were doing something'. There is a bit of a stink of 'der volk not being big enough to deliver on der fuhrers vision' about that!.

The point under discussion appeared to be a lamenting of the lack of support that Colin was feeling....hence his handwringing missive?.

The question was expressly asked do Evertonians care....I answered it. No more no less. I made no points here about the board or Kipper....save for saying that it is possible to find the board a joke but not subscribe to the concepts Colins 'team' proposes...especially the FQ!.

Is staying on topic in a thread such a crime here?

Fair comment I did, but, I'm trying to pick out what this lack of support Colin is talking about is and the only thing that seems to fit is the KEIOC/BU thing?. If thats not what he's talking about I'll apologise fully now. I cant see anything else that has changed to drive him to such an abject position though.

If it is that all I want to do here is point out that there are more Evertonians unhappy with the board than there are that support the BU/KEIOC stance. Try to make it a 'with us or against us' deal and that is something thats not going to sit well is it?.

Dave,

Again though mate my point on this thread isn't about the debate....its about this idea that there are only two positions valid in it. For want of a better description - Bills Way or Colins Way!. What happens if you swallow neither?. There are a lot of Evertonians that fall between those two stools...the insinuation is made here that those in the middle ground are directly culpable...that we 'get the Everton we deserve'. Like I said that sounded just a bit like a statement of Evertonians not being up to the 'Fuhrers vision' to me and I didnt think it fair comment.

It's not because I have any new found love for Kenwright. He's still a shithouse of the highest order for all the reasons Colin states. It's because the alternative is just as shite and football in general is shite. Man City are now held up as the shining beacon of how to be successful and win things. But I wouldn't swap us for them.

Living in Manchester, I get to speak with a lot of City fans and they're not enjoying it. Their stadium is soulless, their players are overpaid mercenaries. Do you think Tevez gives a shit about their club or it's fans? Do you think lescott really wanted to play for Man City? Or did he just want to play for money?

Absolutely nothing about their club now resembles the Man City they grew up with. They are a Premier League franchise who just happen to play in light blue and happen to be based in Manchester. Yet we seem to think they hit the jackpot. They haven't, all they've done is sold their soul. They are now manufactured not born.

I used to think Evertonians lacked ambition and just weren't arsed and that's why they put up with Kenwright and years of Moyes' style of zombie football. I was wrong. Evertonians truly care about their club. They care about the traditions and everything that the club represents. Moyes gets that. He's built a team of players who seem to get it.

Our club still has it's heart and soul. It still has that special match day feeling going to Goodison. It still has local lads in the team. It still has local fans who feel connected with the club and observe the same match day routines that their dads and their dads before them observed. Go and read the Evertonians on twitter today saying how proud they are of yesterday's performance despite losing. Read how proud people are that our team nearly did one on a team of mercenaries that contains 2 players worth more than our whole squad. A few years ago I'd have been livid at that attitude but I'm with them now. I still will moan about Moyes but I'd rather finish 8th with what we've got than finish 1st and have a club like Chelsea or Man City.

I don't think people give a shit about Kenwright but they do give a shit about the alternatives. Right now every alternative doesn't look too appealing.

I'm not going to ask for the third way solution between sticking with Bill and opting for the BU/Keioc solution because you don't have one. I actually prefer the Kenwright apologists to your BS they're honest even if they're wrong.

'In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.'

Sorry for those of you who knew exactly what David meant , but I didn't and I wanted to show others like me what it meant.

However, football without passion is nothing and Colin is a passionate man — he will be back. He has the next issue of the accounts (imminently) to look forward to after all... though, as he claimed to have notice of last year's results well in advance and did a fair bit of gloating about them, perhaps he has already got wind of them this year?

On the back of that piece of A4 perhaps you could write down the successes and failures of KEIOC Blue Union too. My opinion is that the interview with Kenwright was a disaster but they certainly seemed to get us a better PR man in charge in the end. We got a fair measure of the commitment of support for the 'kick out the chairman and the board' and suggest they employ a third party to sell too, which will probably wax and wane with every season. The claim '5000 are staying away in protest' has collapsed this year even though financial times are harder than ever.

Why? Because football fans are the ultimate optimists, why would we keep supporting Everton if we were not? Colin and one or two others are our touchstones when times are harder. Our fortunes will fluctuate, like yin and yang they are eternal partners. Colin's 'we are all doomed' is no truer than Elstone's 'Things have never been so good'.

Where do we go from here? Ultimately Everton will have to change radically to compete for the top again and there will be many things we won't like about it. Everton were one of the last to hold AGMs as massive companies take over most clubs. Everton currently bridge a gap between the old and the new worlds of football, one day we will have to make that jump into the future and it is unlikely to be popular with everyone.

Let us assume KEIOC get their wish and we get a change in management/ownership plus investment. That in all likelihood will come from a large investment group or company who will be about as likely to listen to fans as Glazer & Co do to Man Utd fans. Ticket prices will only go one way. It would be sensible to impose some limitations on the powers of a new owner then? Isn't that exactly what Kenwright wants or are KEIOC going to throw us to the wolves?

There is a fundamental contradiction that none of us can get around: to get more money we will have to give up the club to a body that must raise the maximum amount of money from its fans in order to win something. That would limit the access to the club of many potential KEIOC supporters. Or we can stay where we are and hope for a modicum of success now and then, quietly building consistently year on year with no real hope of massive success?

Will someone come in and offer us even £10 -20 million a year without such control? Unlikely and by imposing that limitation on buyers we are narrowing down the number of buyers likely to approach us — exactly what Kenwright has been accused of doing.

KEIOC argue for exactly the same thing as Kenwright but paradoxically without due consideration for the future of the club's fans. Given the options most opt to sit on their hands and can't be said to be apathetic while doing that.

Steve are you Steve Jones from Kipper, yes or no?

http://www.keioc.net/index.php?page=our-aims

The above link may help.

Lets face it you have proven you just don’t like Colin / KEIOC or the blue union but unlike them you offer nothing, you mock their attempts to unravel the lies and misleading info you remind me of the guy who Tom Hughes and Colin had an almighty argument with about redeveloping Goodison in the football quarter and it turned out the guy built roads for a living and was basing his opinions on his own industry and when pushed put forward that his own idea of saving Everton was to build on the garden festival site and have ferries bringing in fans, the place was pissing itself.

Its easy to criticize from behind a keyboard, its different when you provide accurate explanations and try to offer alternatives, you’re clearly irritated that Colin has earned some respect here, you’re slip is showing mate.

Last I heard it was acknowledged by all parties that the board had already engaged people to sell the club. The idea was that the sticker price on the club was too high. Seeing that the 'team of professionals' would still have that price dictated to them by the people owning the shares I don't see how the 'new professionals' would fare any different? When's ground breaking on the FQ and haven't Liverpool just decided to build their own hotel as part of their stadium redevelopment... Whoops... whoever saw that coming?!

An absence of a better plan doesn't mean a bad plan should be the way forward... it means you keep working on the better plan. Designing roads, things that have to work, cope with predicted future loadings and endure does give you that perspective!

Once again though the intent here was, on topic, to point out that the 'with us or against us' was bang out of order and if you're all wondering why your support ran out you don't have to look far for the reason. As the villagers seem to be sharpening their torches and lighting the pitchforks, I'll leave it there before I get called nastier names than 'Concern Troll'... whatever the fuck that is all about!

Happy frothing lads.

He's a not so secret bullshit merchant
R Bill
R Bill
He's been trying hard to sell Everton 24/7 - yeah right
R Bill
R Bill
R Blue Bullshitter

The team at Trust Everton would like to thank Toffeeweb.com and all other Everton fans' forums for the collective support given over the last 12 months. The project is still active and, agreed, taking a long time to come to fruition. For those who are unaware of the aims and objectives of Trust Everton, please refer to the website, www.trusteverton.com with the opening statement:

"Trust Everton’s mission is to see the future of Everton FC secured for the current and subsequent generations of Evertonians. The initial rationale for Trust Everton is to explore thoroughly the feasibility of a supporters’ vehicle providing sustainable long-term funding for the real-estate assets of the football club. The two that spring to mind are the training ground and the stadium."

To the diaspora of Evertonians across the world, have a great New Year's party and look forward to an exciting and positive 2013 for our great club.

Our job as fans is to get behind the team, every person I know who claims to be an Evertonian does this. Some are only concerned with how the team plays and not a care in the world as to how the club is run or who owns it as long as the team plays well.

Some care for our future, can read warning signs even with the little information we are privvy too, some, from experience, see how truth is substituted by spin and deceit, the problem is of course many don't.

The club claimed to be wronged by the fans and shareholders in daring to ask uncomfortable questions and their solution is to prevent the opportunity to ask again. If you know your history then you will know that this was exactly the situation that the club sought to prevent in its foundation, shame on a board who changed the constitution for their comfort and benefit.

The fans and share holders of this club have no voice or platform to ask the probing questions, many care little to be heard anyway. Many think we do not have a right to enquire or demand explanations. Every shareholder does. Whether the board likes it or not, having a majority shareholding does not give the right to stifle discussion.

I do not believe for one moment that BK or his puppet master cronies have the best interests of the club at heart, he may be an Evertonian but the pursuit of money is paramount.

Everton Football Club is not a well run business, despite what pundits say, we sell to survive, Moyes cannot succeed in such an environment. He will go, but will it break BK's heart or his wallet?

What do the accounts say this year? Easy, I could write next years at a push!

I have no idea why you class me as a merchant of doom, I'm merely pointing out that the evidence proves that the current owners are only concerned about one thing; that the prospective owners may be good or bad is secondary no matter how much work goes into projecting the myth
in place of the reality surrounding the incumbents.

I honestly have no idea what you're on about with your ramblings on limitations on the oowers of new owners and most of the other stuff; btw don't Arsenal hold agm's?

Instead of worrying about keioc's successes just write down your name, blacktop jones, Martian (rip) and any other lunatic on here and for their
accomplishments just write fuck all in large letters!

The match yesterday was prophetic in that it was representative of Everton's struggle in the premiership; guile and determination gets you only so far, ultimately money counts but it was all very entertaining anyway.

Hope you all have a happy and prosperous new year.

1. Hope bill gets his price from a rich yank/oilgarch - unlikely
2. Fans collectively vote with their feet slashing income, and forcing bill to lower his price. Leading to fire sale of players as covenants get busted - unlikely
3. Hope some fan wins euro millions to buy bill out and finds he is bill mk2, as he needs twice the win to unpick 40 years of a lack of investment - unlikely
4. Nothing happens, the slow death continues with the fan base shrinking and ageing. The best players get sold when they show any promise.

Fuck me it's depressing.

Not holding my breath!

Secondly, the football writer from the Sunday Express, John Richardson, who covers the northwest came out with the following shite:

"Bill Kenwright puts absolutely every single penny he has into that club to help David Moyes."

Probably true on the simple basis that he has not that many pennies...

So have your moans – when will we go for a supporters trust a la Barca? – but don't just think it is Bill that tells lies or does not present the truth.

Tempted?

Day 1 - It will cost at least £60 to£120m to buy the shares, and £45m to clear the debt. That gives you a break even club for £100 to £150m.

Day 366 - It would make sense to purchase the training ground - £15m that adds another £1.3m to the bottom line profit, plus Moyes will need some players £10 to £20m. We have just burnt through £125 to £185m before looking at the ground issue.

Whether its 10p or £50m makes chuff all difference when the business is struggling to make £5m from all of the above. Who is going to sink that sort of cash?

So who else has lied to you Phil?

Bill hasn't put a penny into EFC and clearly does not have a clue how the accounts at the club work either.

Are you saying you're happy to have him as Chairman in comparison to other unnamed chairman at other unnamed clubs????

He is a proven liar who is incredibly lucky to have Moyes as his manager.

Still, he's a blue though......

However, the two elephants in the room are the stadium issue to boost revenues, and the price bill is placing on his shares. Other clubs have been bought and sold, that neither have the same stadium issue, the same debt issue, or an owner who is looking for a significant sum for his shares.

Bill cannot afford to give it away, and we can debate whether he wants £20m, £50m, or £100m, the simple facts are the shares based on the above spend and return on offer are probably worthless. Look at the clubs bought and sold:

Aston Villa, withno debt and decent stadium, £60m
Leeds £52m
Wolves £10 (that's ten pounds)
Newcastle £133m with decent stadium.

Unless you are crazy why would you buy Everton over the above??? To get it all sorted is going to cost what £200 - £300m? Not all on Day 1, but that's the possible outlay.

Yes, the TV rights will increase revenue. But this will happen to everyone. I think it's pretty unlikely that the club will get to retain this windfall in any case – what has changed over 10 years of giving it all to players and agents? FairPlay is about break-even, not profitability.

Perhaps you are right. Someone will come in, spend £100m to buy it. Carefully invest in the playing squad, rebuilding the stadium from the increased TVrights, boosting commercial revenues, exploiting overseas opportunities whilst keeping a lid on player wages. I dream...

Are Everton the same club and fans that you fell in love with? Or are we seeing what our fans have always been like? ie excuse makers?

Recently there's been a bit of a backlash against anyone who makes an effort for the club such as the Blue Union, they must wonder why they bother.

In any normal business I would say that the rights of the owners would always take into consideration of its customers, but not football and certainly not Everton FC.

The power resides with a few, to the ignorance of legitimate smaller shareholders, very little to make a fuss about there, except the club was set up with express considerations to ensure that all shareholders have a voice. This board have broken that covenant of trust. For that alone they deserve criticism and for the deceit shown to those same shareholders and supporters they deserve to be replaced.

Change is never easy, never accepted with good grace, never fully understood by many. Many fall by the wayside, but some are always ready to pick up the colors once again, to keep a board honest, to keep a club successful and to keep change to the forefront of expectations.

Direction of change Is entrusted to directors who should account for the business viability over personal gain, who should encompass its and involve its customers through honest communication.

If there was ever a reason to question the boards integrity it has been over the Kirkby debacle and the inability to secure our future. We need to change as supporters and keep asking the uncomfortable questions, even if the truth is uncomfortable too. Only that way can we go forward together as a club and as a fan base.

Adding the debt on to the cost of the club would be like paying more for a house on which the vendor has a large mortgage.

If the value of the club is £100m, then the Board can expect to return £50m to the owners of the equity (assuming the debt is in the region of £50m).

Either the acquirer pays £100m to receive a debt/cash free entity (the vendors paying back the banks) or they pay £50m and assume the debt (assuming the banks don't force the former).

Either way, the above points to the shares being with very little in economic terms. Any 'value' to them is purely through the goodwill associated with owning a (brilliant) football club.

In this case, the major shareholders want an excessive payment based on potential or future worth. Irrespective of any debt the club is carrying, that is independent of any money paid for shares.

I do not expect any new buyer will automatically pay the debt, not at all.

What happens when a new person / group has a controlling interest is up to them how they manage the costs and debt going forward. Once you understand this, it becomes clear that the sale of the club is not dependent on levels of debt or any stadium, it's the initial, upfront payment to the major shareholders for their shares.

Money for nothing.. That's the stumbling block and always has been.

So, you're buying x% of the equity of a privately held business. Are you trying to suggest that the price of x% of equity is the same, regardless of how much debt the entity has?

In Everton's case, there's a group of senior credit providers creaming £Xm of cash from the business. Cash that would otherwise flow to the equity holders. Of course it reduces the value of the equity as it reduces the future (residual) cash flow.

My point is that whatever the value of the business (individual share value being business value divided by no. of shares), this value is reduced by the value of the debt. It doesn't matter whether you're buying 100% or 10% of the equity.

Whichever way you look at it, a buyer is paying a premium purely because they are acquiring a famous football club. Unfortunately the current shareholders think this 'brand' is worth more than the market does.

This is why, I believe, there is little traction in the boards stance, which is to maximise their return on shares which is not necessarily in the interests of the club itself. One would have to therefore assume that the value placed on their shares by themselves, no one else, is not justifiable and is preventing any group or new owner from investing.

With respect to the debt management, their may be far better financial solutions, such as consolidation all debt into long term debt, sponsorship offsets etc. I would not expect the club to be suddenly debt free on arrival of a new owner, I would expect them to have sufficient funding and financial clout to broker a better debt restructuring at lower cost to the club.

You last paragraph I totally agree with.

I don't, in any way, want Everton to become a vanity project for some oligarch or oil fund. Whether it would bring us greater success or not, I just find that whole route a saddening indictment of English football. The Chelsea/City type situation has put me off football in general; not simply because they're richer than us and can buy better players, but because of what it says about the game in this country overall.

I do, however, want Everton to change hands. I want us to be run by a person or group who can invest a reasonable amount of money but, far more importantly, can turn us into a well run and self-sustaining team and business for the long term. A strong financial and commercial entity that acts as the foundation for consistent on field success that *isn't* dependent on the interest of a single individual and whether they choose to throw a chunk of cash into the transfer kitty.

Of course, the long term ideal would be to take our model from Germany, and have a well run business that also looks towards part-ownership from the fans, but that may be completely wishful thinking.

Ask yourselves this - Would you like to see the faces on the Liverpool fans as we knock the 6th goal past them at Anfield, after all the years of pain they have inflicted upon us?

That is what Man City fans witnessed at Old Trafford.

Ultimately, if the only way for Everton to gain success were to give up all that Everton actually are, and all that they mean, then I wouldn't want it. And for me, that's pretty what the Chelsea/City model is.

As much as it sometimes gets on my nerves constantly hearing about our players talk about the 'team spirit' etc. (Phil Neville, I'm looking in your direction), I would much rather listen to that, than read reports like I did this morning about Mancini publically fighting with one of his 'star' zillion pound players during training, or have to put up with greedy gits throwing tantrums * cough * Tevez * cough *. I think as soon as you start throwing money at something, you do lose the essence of the Club.

Don't get me wrong, I want Kenwright out, yesterday if possible (and take them self-serving shit bags Earl and Green with you), but I wouldn't want the Club to be turned into a plaything (more than it as already by Kenrwight anyway!).

I do realise that we require new ownership; all the keyboard jockeying in the world is not going to make a bit of difference to the current owners.

I find it amazing that people who set themselves up as financial experts on the club's business with meaningless reports find so much space on this site.

Finally I wonder how supporters would feel if we got Hicks and Gillete or maybe a Randy Lerner from Villa to run the club.