Nil money ... Nisi Optimum

Moyesy is not infallible in fact sometimes he is very frustrating and confusing but we supporters should not forget the dignity and class the man has brought to the club let alone the stable improvement to the top half of the table.

This is especially remarkable given the culture that Kenwright has brought to the club of deceit and subterfuge with no class whatsoever.

You are right in saying he is just as frustrated as us and we haven't endured the running against brick walls of Green, Earl and Co.

This year is a real watershed for EFC and us supporters and I really hope all Evertonians will get behind the manager and the players in a final push for some success.

The end of the season will be the time for review and recriminations – not now.

So not only was he a very good manager he is also a man of principals, I would think that he is going to be a hard act to follow if he leaves this summer.

You can't just wash away his bad points, what about all those poor starts that regularly saw us looking over our shoulder at relegation? The capitulation against Liverpool at Anfield, and the semi-final that followed, we were gifted a 1-0 lead we tried to hang on to for the rest of the game.

Of course he has a good record overall, no-one can deny his 4th place finish - but his average League finish is 8th, not forgetting some players are on top 6 money.

I am 99% certain he is off at the end of this season, and I will remember him as a good manager, who always played safety first football.

It's a shame he wasn't given more money, because we will never know if he could have become an Everton great, leading us into Europe each season, and winning some silverware. I think he was always learning at Everton, and he said as much himself.

He will go with my best wishes, but I can't honestly say I will miss the man, or his style of football.

During Smith's time at this club, he had to deal with boardroom wrangles, takeovers, failed takeovers, players being sold behind his back, no funds whatsoever, etc. I don't recall Moyes ever having to sign the likes of Divy Gazza or that French guy off the Shampoo adverts, Ginola. Moyes has done okay but lacks a lot of what it takes to be a real winner.

Compared to Joe Roe's two-and-a-bit seasons, Moyes is a huge flop if we are using Smith's failures as a gauge for Moyeses success. Can't have it both ways, can we?.I said in a post that wasn't used yesterday that all Moyes has really done is keep us up. We are no better off now than we were under big Joe — although Joe won us a trophy in his first 6 months, took us to Europe and beat the Shite nearly every time we played them.

For my money the premiership title is about as competitive as the SFA.
Winning it is within the grasp of just two or maximum three clubs.

Even though Im a die hard evertonian I have to admit that Liverpools eighteen title wins were far more meritorious than winning the premiership.
In their day there were no foreign players and money was not the reason a team won.
Managers 'built' home grown players into sides who could play and win in europe.
I regularly had a punt on Everton winning the title or F.A cup with a realistic chance of winning but now there are just the same teams in the top two ot three and thats it !!

Some fans bleat about DM not winning titles and trophies but none of the clubs outside Manchester and London have won a trophy that the so called 'big' clubs have wanted seriously to win.
Moyes has done a fantastic job and I will be very sad and a lot angry if he leaves.
Our board are all multi millionnaires and have never used their money to help the manager.
The loan window is open but we are just using it to lower the wage bill.
We loan out very quickly but don't loan IN.
Supposedly we were loaning IN Ofoe but missed the boat due to tardiness in the paperwork.
Why is he not here now ?

Fer is as much an enigma as the riddle of the Sphinx.
That was deception on a par with Blunt/Burgess and co.
Now everyone's attention is on castigating poor old Davey boy....perhaps this is another smoke screen put forward by this dismal board to draw attention away from themselves.

I am disappointed, frustrated and very angry at the misdirected and uncalled for bile at a man who to my mind is honest and trying to push for europe.
The board have let us all down !!

The Role: Manager
A superb opportunity has arisen for a World Class Manager to take the lead in rebuilding Everton into the Premier club in the EPL, responsible for all aspects of running the playing and development side of the club; to include, junior and youth strategy and development, first and second team player appointment, recruitment along with complete autonomy regarding buying and selling of any player associated with the club.

The Club: Everton FC
The greatest club in the history of English football, founder member of the Football League, winner of 9 league titles, 5 FA Cups, and 1 European Cup Winners Cup.
This should get the interest of any self respecting coach/manager out there!

The Club Vision
To become the Number #1 football team in the EPL, as measured by consistence, flowing style of winning play, youth development, Premier League titles, FA Cup wins and regular qualification for the European Champions League, culminating in European Championship titles.

The Candidate
Key attributes of the Everton Manager to include:-
• A passion for cultured flowing football in the style of the legendry “School of Science”
• Ability to work with world class players, manage their hopes and desires, in the framework of a good honest family club with a sprinkling of journeymen, young upcoming lads and good honest professionals
• Strong interpersonal skilled, charismatic and articulate
• Significant football club management experience demonstrating an ever improving record of development and achievement

The role will be based at the MECCA, L4, initially a minimum of 7days a week until the goals are accomplished i.e. turning Everton into the leading club in world football.

Assume a maximum salary of 65k (similar Moyes’ current package). Assume we find a way to provide the new manager with a transfer fund of say 30m.

We set a timescale to cover a honeymoon period, a rebuilding period and a timeline to deliver the goods. We also set a trapdoor i.e. a minimum level of performance and points required each season while the rebuilding process is undertaken.

I’m sure many of you can come up with more detailed process/structure/objectives/timelines etc. but take it in the spirit it is intended, think about the potential candidates out there and come back with your recommendation, supported by at least a paragraph explaining your decision!
COYBs

Personally I think his time with us will be coming to an end as the curtains close on a season that once promised – and in fact still might – a bit of glory. Let’s not forget we’re still 6th in the league and probably going to be in the Quarter-Final of the FA Cup. It’s about expectations: if we spent a lot, I’d expect us to win something... We spend nothing, so I don’t expect very much.

We’re not a big club any more and haven’t been for 20 years. So in a masochistic way I’m quite looking forward to Moyes leaving and the new dawn. After all, according to a lot of posters on TW, get rid of him and we’re destined for glory! Destined for demotion more like.

Man up, guys — he's a Football Manager, nothing more, nothing less... and they are two a penny — or rather more than that; they will be queuing up, CVs at the ready, for the £4 Million-a-year, no-pressure, cakewalk job at Everton FC.

I agree with you Jim. Too many people have forgotten what it was like pre-Moyes pretending as though he took over the 87 team from Kendall and struggling to see how it all went wrong. It was a time of perpetual embarassment, being overjoyed if we moved out of the bottom three on the ceefax page, always looking out for Bolton's/Coventry's/Derby's results. Always hoping that a big team would do us a favour. Praying that we'd get a 'big' draw away at a team like Southampton. Villa park was a no win area, St James' park was a no win area, as was Elland road. These mid table sides were so much superior to us on a season by season basis whilst the top sides may well have been in a different league to us. Forget Anfield 99, we were a billion miles away from them regardless of one result, they couldn't even be bothered most of the time in the derby, that's probably why we won one. I even used to be embarassed playing Everton on fifa as they were so terrible. We used to give the kopites a regular good laugh as well with comedy signings like Gascoigne and Ginola.I still remember now a quote in the Echo I think from some Everton director after Moyes was appointed saying he'd take us back into the top 5, I remember everyone including myself just laughing at this deluded idiot.

Wind the clock forward and Southampton, Leeds, and Newcastle have suffered relegation, so have our fellow relegation battlers Coventry, Derby and Bolton. Everton meanwhile have gone back into Europe (indeed the top 4 briefly) and are now trying to challenge for that spot again. Cup finals and semis have come back on the cards rather than relegation final day showdowns. Wins are now routinely expected at St James', White Hart Lane, Anfield (indeed judging by this site EVERY single ground in the league no questions asked). We're now hoping that Arsenal and Chelsea drop points, and are disappointed if Liverpool get too close behind us.

We have perhaps the world's best left back playing for us. Two of the Belgian national team starting 11 in our team, one of which chose us over Arsenal, and a team full of internationals with two of Englands back 4 in it.

Moyes has with no other resource other than time changed the whole landscape of our team in the premier league. Bumping against this glass ceiling is the most frustrating thing ever and some of his tactical decisions he makes are baffling. Some of the defeats at Wembley have been crushing as has our tag of nearly men in the league. But put these frustrations into the wider context of our premier league existence. That's why it is so frustrating when epople come out with throw away comments like 'its been nothing but 11 years of hoofball', 'Moyes has shown nothing that Smith didn't', 'at least we played good football before we came and won at Anfield'. There is a lot of valid criticism of Moyes in terms of people wanting the club to move on, but trivialising what he has done for this club in the premier league is ridiculous

Whatever manager comes in next, despite having no investment, will have an incredible platform to work from that is lightyears away from what Moyes walked into 11 years ago.

Yes, we are Everton: one of the great clubs of English football. But Liverpool was one of the great cities of empire. But it has become a diminishing city of a medium-sized European nation that has gambled it all on high finance and lost.

Liverpool is not a wealthy city, it's on the wrong side of the country - north and west, since the gateway to America became antiquated, has lost out to south and east (facing Europe). Our ticket prices are relatively low b'cause fans from the hinterland cannot afford more. A similar-sized club with less glory and history than us resides in north London. Spurs earns twice our revenues. This is not about the board. We are as a city and club in decline.

We either need a billionaire in need of a toy, or the Chinese to adopt Liverpool as an entrypoint into the EU and regenerate it.

Other than that, to have a manager as dedicated, ambitious and talented as Moyes has been a Godsend. Many say: we're just three players short etc etc. Actually, I have thought from the start of the season, we are a striker short of even having a chance of grabbing 4th.

We have depended on Jela staying fit and in form. Well, it ain't happened, and all those draws look likely to cost us.

We'll miss Moyes. Given the choice between keeping Baines and Felli, I've always plumped for Baines - in part 'cos I love him, in part cos Felli could bring in £30 million, which, by the way, experience shows would go right back into the team. But given the choice of keeping one of them or Moyes, I'd want Moyes. We'll stay top 6 with him. We'll have to find another magician if we're without.

1) His stubbornness to change his team even when his teams are obviously getting battered.

2) His predictable 75 mins substitutions normally just after we go a goal down.

3) Square pegs, round hole policy (Heitinga still playing CB!)

4) Failing miserably in Europe... etc etc

However, the biggest failure of Moyes was his inability to stand up to Kenwright because he just doesn't care enough. Moyes is not a Blue — he is doing the job for his massive salary, which he would collect no matter what the team did.

Moyes backing Kenwright, Kenwright backing Moyes — a love story ruining this great club with his sound bites: "We have the best chairman in the league".

Bring in D Canio, an honourable manager who would play with flair and hold Kenwright to ransom when he didn't back him. A manager who is not just going through the motions for a fat pay cheque and hope of a better offer.

Most people just use the mean: add up all the figures and divide by the amount of examples. (For Moyes, I do not count the end of 2001/2 as he was manager for about eight games)

In measuring avg salaries, if you added D Beckham's salary to most people's, the average would be wildly distorted.

So other measures are preferred by statisticians. The modal takes the most common figure: for Moyes that would be 7th place (three times) perhaps to be accompanied by 5th if that's where we finish this term, while the median average would delete outriders: so, delete 17th, and 4th; then delete 11th and 5th; then delete 8th and 5th again; then delete 7th and 6th, and you're left with 7th. So on two counts, 7th is his average. That's pretty good over 11 years.

Acknowledging the changing face of football is well put. No one outside the money has ever qualified for the CL (except Moyes) and only 4 of these clubs have won one of 21 domestic trophies since Moyes has arrived and that includes the Bradford/ Swansea final.

Yes, Moyes doesn't seem to fulfill his own potential at times. The failures in the big games irk me as much as anyone, but forgetting the cups for a moment, the ones in the league are just about points and where we finish shows how good he is. We all know about his away record, but I'd wage his home record is dam good... under floodlights, best in the league?

The fact is no one has done more for less, and plenty do less with more.
Take away the seasons finishing 11th and 17th and how many clubs without the money finished above us? Maybe Spurs when they didn't have quite so much and I don't know, maybe Villa on one occasion. And that's it. The only thing he's guilty of is not fulfilling our hopes he gave us with the tiny chance of CL qualification most seasons.

Agreed at times the football has been a horror show of uninspired hoof but the good football quickly gets forgotten by many. I'd say its a 50/50 split throughout his tenure. But if its functionality that got the points, it worked.

Sure their are managers out there who could do a better job, but to guarantee it? And so much better that 4th would be closer? No. Only a Mourinho or Hiddink etc.

BK's greatest decision of hiring Moyes needs to be bettered or the failure of finishing 5th 6th and 7th will seem like a dream when its 8th 9th and 10th - or worse.

I have always believed he is a very good manager, nothing more and he does have the ability to get the best out of mediocre players...Kilbane and Bent anyone, however we will not fall like a stone if he goes, who knows, we may even get a manger who will get and extra bit out of the players and get into the top 4. I don't see it, as that manager will cost money and will want a decent transfer kitty.

I just have nightmares about a Fat Sam, a Holloway or a Warnock in the dug out instead of a Laudrup.

There have been countless threads pertaining to whether or not Moyes has taken us as far as he can. I say yes he has. It has nothing to do with money, the players we have are capable of much more than is being currently delivered, but Moyes cannot extract the necessary performances.

Can't see Moyes staying under current ownership. As to replacement, how about that fellow Solskjaer? Putting his time in well in the Scandinavian minor leagues. Have to think he'd love to be back in the EPL.

Anyway, I'd prefer him to the flavors of a season being mentioned. Especially not that Martinez. Something shifty about him. Loves having the camera on himself a bit too much for me.

Brian sums it up, and we will soon see if he is offered a "big job."

His agent will have already been contacted B.T.W.

How do you know there have been no approaches for the Moysiah?

Who knew, before this week what an utter ratbag Drenthe was during his time here? and, although we knew some of what went on with AvdM, we clearly didn't know, and may never know, the full story.

In the best run organisations these things aren't acted out in a shop window, or in the pages of the Sun - they happen "in camera".

Has the Club offered him a new contract - We're not certain but we're pretty sure it has

Has Mr. Moyes refused to sign it? - Not yet

Will Mr Moyes sign it in June - We Don't Know

If David Moyes does sign a new contract, will it be a good thing for Everton FC ? Probably but not without renewed investment.

Will David Moyes change his managerial style? No

Can another manager replace David Moyes and maintain best of the rest? Possibly but will need investment

Are Everton likely to see a return of the dark days of the 90s if David Moyes leaves? Possibly but probably not

Will Everton return to the dark days of the 90s with David Moyes at the helm? Possibly but probably not

Will supporters stop supporting the Blues if he goes? No

Will supporters stop supporting the Blues if he stays? No

Will clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal be as vulnerable as they have been in the last 18 months? Probably not

To those that are defending David Moyes they have to remember there have been no concerted efforts to remove him from his post at anytime during the last 11 years, there have been disgruntled people airing their views on websites and similar media outlets, but every club, especially clubs with long and illustrious histories have to deal with that. Football for the most part is about opinion and emotion. Most Evertonians realise where the true problem lies and that is the boardroom, some of those who criticise David Moyes, do so because he appears to share the same values of the board rather than the dreams of the fans.

I may be wrong but I can't remember the fan-base being so divided about the motives of the board and the abilities of the manager, some expect and hope for more, some are fearful that we will do a Charlton and drop through the divisions like a stone if another manager comes into the club.

Any scenario is possible from either end of the spectrum, that is the nature of the sport. We won't challenge for the PL anytime soon and neither will many other clubs, we may have the odd season where things get sticky, but I'd be surprised if not shocked if we became permanent members of the relegation dogfight in future years.

In modern times, we have fallen far behind in what is considered the best way. Even by the less than shining standards of the PL, we are second tier. The ground is delapidated and we owe money out hand over fist. We have a poor board, a slightly better than average squad, poor investment and revenue, and underpinning it all, a lack of upward direction and ambition.

Instead of being seen to live and breathe Nil Satis... we are now perceived as being plucky, as punching above our weight. That is absolute shit, but it is now the reality. Nostalgia, history and sentimentality are wonderful things, but we cannot wave them in the air, expect great things to happen and then complain when they don't.

The other side of the coin is where could Moyes go, certainly no Top 5 team would take him as he hasn't the credentials - he hasn't shown he can win things at all , will Utd,City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs risk him - I doubt it.
If he is to go it will have to be abroad - but I suspect he'll stay at Everton somehow.

It really isn't a case of hating Moyes more his part in the last ten years - he is involved you know.

He became an integral part of the Kenwright court with his snout firmly in the trough, I wouldn't think he gives a monkeys that EFC now rent a training ground and are many millions more in the red paying for his trophyless 8th ish.

He has always been distant barely disguising that EFC is a stepping stone his skirt lifting for the Spurs job last year was cringeworthy. But we have no leadership to rein him in just a gang of daft buggers dopey enough to feed his ludicrous wage demands including employing most of his old centre halves and some family members. It is no wonder he behaves like king Tut - he is omnipotent at Goodison particularly as 11 years on people still pay homage for rescuing us.

But it's a myth, contrary to attempts at re-writing history Walter's squad never actually got relegated. Moyes come along when confidence was shot and he went to page 1 of the coaching manual "if in doubt keep them out" forget about trying to win stuff play it tight and defend... hey presto the ship was steadied. Players relieved of the burden of being "Everton" were more than capable of being "Coventry" - no miracle.

It is conveniently overlooked he was given a few bob and bequeathed the unbelievable gift of Rooney at the start, what was it 25/27 million quids worth? His net spend over the years might be low but he was given a cracking start - if it was a rescue he had the the 999 services, the armed services and the coastguard in attendance.

What is the infamous line?: "Name me one other manager in similar circumstance who has achieved so little for so long given a Wayne Rooney? ... go on just one".

Now he's deciding to leave us (note HE'S DECIDING) he's leaving us with an ageing team a youth policy producing championship standard and a hugely increased wage bill ... for what?

Well, we will get the 7th/8th usual and we have Felli and Baines to sell ... THAT'S IT! - REALLY AFTER 11 YEARS!!!

11 years of hand in glove existence with the chairman during which time he has lined his pockets - disproportionately in my view - while studiously avoiding the approach of Benitez at Liverpool, O'Neill at Villa, Allardyce at Bolton ie sharing of fans ambition. In my opinion a manager should be a champion of supporters not a well paid shield for the chairman.

He has NEVER got the fans of this club and even after telling lies over his contract he has the brass neck to effectively say "yeh I might sign if naff all else comes up ...give me a call in the summer" .

He should have been called in and told straight away - decision by the weekend this is Everton FC not Moyes FC.

If TV punditry doesn't work he should join forces with Kenwright in a magic show - the number of people the pair have duped puts David Copperfield in the shade.

"Just hope some fans don't regret hounding Moyes out the door".

Sorry have I missed something?

HOUNDING him out of the door!?

You must be fucking JOKING!

Paul next time add - "In the snow" - that'll REALLY get 'em.

A couple of things: if Moyes is full of ambition, he will leave the club, not sign a new contract for top wages in full knowledge that he will get relatively little to spend during his new 5-year contract. — Do I think he will leave? Not a chance.

One other thing: when punters such as yourself talk about a replacement manager, Why do you always use the scare tactic of Sam Allardyce?

We both know Sam has got no chance whatsoever of being the Everton manager.

I'm grateful to Moyes for his first 5 year stint. He single handedly turned the playing squad around and our fortunes on the pitch.

As much as Moyes first 5 years was about raising expectations, and seeing what a really poor squad could achieve, the last 5 years have been about Moyes himself and arse covering and lowering expectations.

Every season is about avoiding relegation - I'm surprised he hasn't mentioned it in the last few weeks as we technically might still be able to get relegated. He constantly talks down the players and our potential. His style of football is predicated on fear, as evidenced by his 11 players defending inside the box leading to goals conceeded.

We now go to grounds and compare the financial balance sheets of the clubs to determine if we can compete(knives & gunfights) before a ball is kicked. When he can't complain about his lack of funds, he sites player fatigue as an issue.

Perhaps telling our players to retain posession and stop fucking hoofing it, or maybe using some of our youth players could mitigate that?

A new weapon in his arsenal is holding the club to ransom over his contract negotiations. In the transfer window, he wanted to spend £10M of the clubs money, yet was unwilling to commit his future more than 6 months ahead. Personally I'd have told him where to go.

In my eyes, he's outstayed his welcome and because I'm not gripped by the kind of fear and glass-half-full mentality that Moyes has, I think we have a good chance of getting someone in who'll be more successful than Moyes.

And for someone who dismisses, and rightly so, the saving us from relegation tag for 11 years has passed, you throw many a spear his way for that period in his tenure.

Yeah, Baines and Fellaini may all be it after 11 years. But again you fail to acknowledge the CL status and the money of the teams we're up against and what you expect given those circumstances. And you're great at coming back on the many questions I have put your way, but really, what do you expect for league position and cups?

Only 4 in 21 domestic cups have been won by teams without money, something you like to avoid, and the teams above us have a shed load more cash, the teams below us have a shed load more cash, we have nothing.

What to you would equate to mission accomplished?

He has a £60M player budget to manage. If he reaches that limit, it's sell to buy. Seems perfectly reasonable to me... but apparently not to Moyes and some of you.

His hand was forced by Lescott, Rooney and Arteta, and each time the money he generated has moved the quality of the squad to a new level, so it's not like he's being asked to ruin our chances of improving.

The club has what money it has and any manager of this club must remain within that financial budget.

But no; he has supported them and all their lies over the last 10 plus years. He even came out and supported the Kirkby move and he must have known more than any Evertonians the truth.

Maybe, just maybe, the team will grow a pair when he does go. There wasn't this much uproar when Kendall Mk I left. Now that was a disaster at that time.

Many fans will not be happy until he is gone (sounds like you're one of them) and will say anything they can derogatory against him at every opportunity – that's where the "hounding" bit comes in that you so disagree with.

I have a few Huddersfield Town friends who thought Lee Clark was no good (despite a record 40-odd-game unbeaten run) and couldn't wait til he went. Fast-forward 3 managers and they are regretting their wishes.

All I am saying is that I hope that sort of thing doesn't happen at Everton. No real need for the aggressive response either – it's not big or clever.

Incidentally, why must critics of Moyes justify their criticism by naming an alternative coach and giving reasons why he could do better? David Moyes wouldn't have entered my mind as a replacement for Walter Smith but it happened.

You greatly admire Moyes and that's fair enough, you'll get no abuse from me. Trevor, those who take an alternative view to you aren't always "mindless clowns".

If David Moyes goes, good luck to him but Dave Wilson, who had become a stout defender of Moyes, referred to him as a hired hand. Well, we can hire a new one and maybe he will seem Blue through and through as well.

You balance your argument well, like others who praise Moyes but the one thing you miss out is balancing his league position with our performances in cups and Europe which is shocking over 10 years and we are one of the few teams who do try in the League Cup.

His overall record I would say is average and what he's had some extremely good signings he's never quite made incredible signings (ie Wenger buys of Viera & Fabregas for buttons).

I think it's unlikely we'll replace Moyes with a better manager; it is possible. He is good, not great.

Undeniably, he's put together quite decent teams but, as others have asked, "Why don't we ever tonk anyone?" It's the malaise that kills us against the Readings and Shrewsburys of this world. Something missing. It gets called "dithering", "defensive", "dour"... all variants on a theme. I can honestly say I only recall 2 games when I thought we're really at it: The last 20 mins of the Goodison 3 - 3 draw against Man Utd a few years ago and up at Sunderland in the FA Cup.

I honestly think this squad has another 10% at least in it and I've felt the same about all Moyes teams: Would that translate to cups and CL? Well, quite possibly... but what I do know is Moyes has had enough time to resolve it and hasn't.

It's time for Martinez and because his name is like MARTINO I expect him to sing "blue spanish eyes" when he wins a cup... Ole!

A decent manager,yes but the selfless Everton hero you make him out to be? AA
Don`t make me laugh! Tactically inept — just look at that Big 4 record — negative to the point of self-destruction and happy to preach hoof-ball for years on end in the cause of pragmatism.No, all the `big clubs` see him for what he is (the ideal guy to get you in the top half but no further) and that`s why none of them will give him any more of a chance than he gives the likes of Duffy and all the other kids making the news this week.

Would mean taking a risk, you see.

As Paul says, fans regret when managers leave, I even have Utd supporting friends with the same arguments towards Ferguson who would think the % argument is also valid for him.

You can frig the stats anyway you like, we sometimes sell players late in transfer windows without time to buy a replacement. Leaving us a net loss "to the banks" in a particular transfer window. Ultimately the money gets spent on transfer fees or loan fees in the next window. If I recall rightly the Arteta money went to fund Jelavic and Gibson and Pienaar's return.

So while Moyes has "nothing" additional to the clubs budget, he does have £60M to work with. He just has to rotate the playing squad to get at it, since he's already at the limit of his spending. It's simple enough and you don't need to play word games or spin stats to see the truth.

Do I think its right we have to operate within our means? Yes.

Would I like more money for Moyes to spend? Yes.

Would I be happy to see the club take on more debt to service Moyes's spending? No.

To set up gross exaggerations like nobody is supposed to notice.

Actually the OP is also a classic - "I can already sense the heckles of the average ToffeeWeb contributor rising... Take a pill and release the dog’s neck – they need to breathe!" and "I can picture the throbbing veins, the incredulous looks of disbelief, the rising blood pressure and the punished keyboard letters being thumped in outraged replies already".

(can you really, ooh aren't you reasonable and aren't those who disagree with you slightly unhinged).

Paul, you say..

"Moyes is doing his best in pretty crappy circumstances. He isn't perfect but he isn't a disaster either".

Well we can agree or disagree about that (we won't convince each other but it's a forum, we're on it, so we can give it a go).

So fair enough, you've made your point but you continue.

"Many fans will not be happy until he is gone"

Well that's probably true as well (even if it is stating the bleeding obvious).

Then you add.. "(sounds like you're 1 of them)"

And?

Sorry is that not allowed?

Then you lose it - again.

"..and will say anything they can derogatory against him at every opportunity - that's where the "hounding" bit comes in that you so disagree with"

Yes I DO disagree with it, mainly because it's desperate bollocks.

'They will say anything they can derogatory against him at every opportunity?'

Well go on then let's see PROOF of this 'anything'.

Are the MOB saying he nobs chickens or he's a kiddie-fiddler or he's in the KKK?

Or by 'anything' do you mean posts like Barry's (028) that give HIS reasons for why HE wouldn't be distraught to see the back of Moyes.

I repeat - the idea that Moyes will eventually be 'hounded out' by a few none-complimentary opinions on a website he almost certainly doesn't know about is fucking nuts.

Oh and if he IS aware of TW and WAS the easily hounded out type, a couple of Tony Marsh's posts five years ago surely would have done the trick.

Only the other day I was talking to a mate of mine who happens to be really good mates of the father of one of our senior pros and his words were: "You can't even make a cup of tea at Everton or Finch Farm without Moyes's say-so. He runs the show, lock, stock and barrel."

Maybe it's true... maybe not; but it tells you something, doesn't it? I honestly think he'll walk in the summer. The thing is, who'd have him?

While the likes of Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea have been mooted, ask any of their fans if they'd have him and I know unequivocally what the answer to that would be. I'd say a Big Fat NO!!!

The argument is what Moyes does with that budget and what people expect from him. If only Bill were to complete his 24/7 mission.

The Arteta money disappeared, those signings were funded by Billy and Saha leaving.

The 26th richest is in terms of income, but there's crippling interest rates sucking away that cash, and that's BK's doing. Take a look at the clubs in 25th and 27th, I don't know who they are but neither do I think a zero net spend is a luxury for them.

The board have now loaned out yet another young player (the 4th) and brought in who???

I don't believe that DM stays for the money alone, I reckon he is a fan and wants the best for the club. Unfortunately all the bad mouthing seems to be aimed at DM and not where it belongs.

If he goes we will struggle... the Board will stay and carry on the fiddle-playing.

I'm a fan longer than most of you people have been born and DM is amongst the best four managers I have seen at the club.

You are kidding yourselves if you don't think he is serious about looking for 40 points at the start of each season. Our results this season are quote bizarre to look at, they read like some sort of computer programme.

I'm ready for some fresh ideas, and refreshing football.

The squad he inherited outside of Gravesen (who was able to walk on a free in 12 months) and Rooney, was not worth a carrot. The current' squad despite bill selling off '£38m' over the last 2 years is way ahead of the bottom 12, with value in the form of Mirallas, Jelavic, Heitinga, Jagielka, Gibson, Osman, Oviedo, Pienaar, Coleman, Stones, Anichebe, and Barkley. Not a bad base for any newcomer is it.

His squad may look even better if he was ever given the tools to do the business. No positive additions for how many years... But that's the issue. We could have Lewis Hamilton, replacing our F1 driver, but if the car is a milk float, and run by Albert Steptoe, don't be expecting the chequered flag. But you know that, Barry, you just throw your comments out, hoping Moyes goes, and brings down Bill's trainset.

Re: "nobs chickens" - point of order - KFC bargain bucket just been binned.

I happen to think the standard of coaching in this country is universally crap they all say and do the same thing with the prize of multi millionaire status as a prem manager over-riding any semblance of ambition.

The only one I can make a reasonably positive case for is Martinez but that is mostly based on his remarkable Swansea legacy. The Wigan years I'm making excuses up for him - "it's wigan", "Whelan has stopped spending" yadda yadda all a bit Moyesie. However he does win "big" games he has looked into the abyss and come through plus turning down liverpool and Villa is ballsy showing both loyalty and a bit of savvy.

Of the others I'm so desperate for this cadaver of a football club to be resurrected I'd go with a nutter - Di Canio, Holloway just to wake the damn place up. You never know it might go crazy - but in a good way.

No more dour, po faced mumbling trance inducing Everton for me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/9514149/Graphic-Premier-League-transfer-and-wage-spending-from-the-200001-season-to-201112.html

It allegedly shows just what we're talking about. I've taken a look at a few of the seasons, and it shows that we generally punch a couple of places above what our financial "spend/budget" would indicate.

If finances were the be-all and end-all then it would mean that Moyes is doing a good job, overall. But of course you need to factor in the stability that he works under; the fact he's been given a 10+ year free reign to control the club as he pleases.

Overall he's probably still doing a decent job, but those graphs show we're not premiership paupers who have no money like some would like us believe. We're probably the 8th or 9th best funded team in the league, and if Moyes goes the next manager will have a decent budget to work with to try to push those european places.

Essentially it seems a trade off of Felli and Baines for the huge debt and no assets.

Go on Barry, humour me!!

Whoever the new guy is I'll give him a few weeks then get right into him if he hasn't won the world cup.

No excuse really Everton is a country as far as I'm concerned.

"Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" (Paul Newman, I think).

Jelavic and Gibson came in for Bilyaletdinov. Pienaar, Mirallas, Oviedo and Stones came in for Cahill, Yobo, and Rodwell.

Like the great Peter Johnson said, any transfer funds needed are out there on the pitch.

In just one season, he will not only win a trophy but he has also won at Chelsea, Arsenal and Anfield and all with little old skint Swansea and no Moyes fan can get around that.

Unfortunately, the manager always gets the blame and this season seems to be drifting along to the same inevitable conclusion for the Blues after promising so much earlier on. Okay, things may suddenly change starting against Norwich on Saturday and then the Oldham replay but the talk of Moyes going and teams bidding for Fellaini seems likely to keep things the way they are.

Perhaps they'll come for Bobby.....

"We have just posted a 40% increase in revenue."

"What have you done, Robert, for Everton?"

"Well, I questioned my staff over leaking e-mails, I fucked up a stadium move, I sold our commercial income for next to nothing, I have overseen next to nothing from our kit sponsor, drawn some pictures of some pretend new development where our players park their cars, I am totally reliant on David Moyes and I am a bit worried what will happen when he goes... Oh, and I oversee the Everton lottery."

"We will let you know, Robert... Next!"

Gee I don't now why don't you try and point it out to me in your condescending fashion

Brendan

Why get so het up about where Everton finish in the league who cares as we are not going to win it and we are not going to get relegated it is the cups which should be the main focus, given a choice of 6th and no trophy or 17th and a shiny pot then it is a no brainer.

Ian, truth is that none of us know which money paid for what. What we do know is players left, and new players were bought. I think we can agree that the clubs net spend has been zero for a while and that we can't safely spend any more without risking administration.

I don't see this zero net spend as a problem, or something that should stop Moyes from improving the team. I'd like to see him be a lot more proactive in moving players on at the top of their value and bringing in young, hungry and cheaper replacements and making some use of our youth system.

On the latter point, he's had 10 years with full control over that aspect of the club and only Osman and Vic are regular players who came through our youth system under him. Our young players may not be top quality premier league standard, but we need to make better use of them and develop them for the clubs sake.

Well, what trophies have we won ? Percentage wise over the 11 years how many games have we won ? How many should we have win and not drawn this season alone ? How many times have we beaten the "big 4" ? How many times have we beaten the RS ?

For someone so desparate to win, the track record says otherwise, as has the style of football we have played for the vast majority of his tenure.

Nothing can be further done to help the club, us, the team/manager (again, any manager) until the chief culpable culprit Kenwright has been either bought out or in my opinion implodes under the ever looming groundhog daying hand of the financial inevitable.

It is my opinion that the rest of the board who of course are well known to have resources among them to be able to buy and sell the chairmen of other top four clubs, do not want Kenwright in charge. Bill Kenwright bought (into) this club with basically, in this day an age of big money, for two bob. And worst of all, as the majority shareholder.

I am convinced now that this board and a few peripheral acolytes want him out. The trouble has been (regardless of missed opportune offers in the past, I might add) that he is only being offered his coin back by the board... so he, via his insurmountable list of accrued financial loans (ie, debts) has been hoping Moyes will pull him out of his hole by a high-flying CL place. Then, hopefully find another big buyer to get the real deal.

This all adds up (in my opinion) to the entrenched stalemate we've got right here and right now.

Our only hope to end this?.... (again imo) ...Our getting off our fucking arses and screaming at the bastard to Fuck Off! — instead of posting hundreds of impotent forum-based yakkety fucking yak pissed rants and boring ravings on these sites (I know, but someone had to say it)!!

ps: D'you think the Reds or the Mancs would've taken our shit for this long????

Everything fell nicely fall for him? Swansea were a promoted team this time last year, this was supposed to be their difficult second season syndrome and how is winning at Stamford Bridge and Anfield having an easy run of it which is what they have done to get to the final, can you honestly see this current manager doing the same outside of a Playstation.

Good post and like a lot of blues you give the man full credit for what he has achieved at this great club - with almost fuckall support from the board he has dragged this club to where we are now.

Talk at Oldham was not if but when will Moyes leave, regardless of whether or not any top club wants him. Basically, he has had it with the board and who can blame him - I mean come on, that Fer transfer was a fucking shambles.

So, the MOB will just have to wait but for me I couldn't give a toss for any of TW favourites, I mean Martinez from Wigan - this season he's won the same number of games that Moyes has lost - what the fuck.

I don't disagree with the third paragraph. I will say it is harder than t looks. Trading players is an expensive game with between 20% and 40% of total net business going out in agent fees to buy, sell on fees, player loyalty fees at both ends, and player levy taxes. Also if you drop your draws and sell anyone to keep the project going, don't expect any unity or loyalty from your players. Tradable stock, will behave like tradable stock. It worked with Wegner but the trick seems to have run dry.

The plus points of Moyes reign are about 9 months worth of decent football in 11 years, and a fairly steady 6th-8th place finish each season....for a club that spends about 8-10th in the league. There was the cup final against chelsea, and a couple of seasons of european football which was memorable. Essentially in the last few years Moyes is doing ok, but not great.

From an objective point of view, I'd say Swansea's achievements far outweigh ours. In the last 5 years I'd say we've stood still, largely due to Moyes reluctance to sell to buy. Importantly, Moyes looks incapable of improving our current situation unless he gets more funds, i.e. he still is not prepared to break up the squad. This is something the club cannot give him.

I'd much rather see us take a gamble on a young upcoming coach - just like we did with Moyes 11 years ago, rather than put up with any more of Moyes posturing. There are some good coaches around that we know of and probably more to discover.

Yakubu, and others have been forced out by Moyes. We received great offers for Saha and Neville which Moyes turned down. Buying and selling is part of football at most clubs. Every player at every club has a price, as Man U found out when Real Madrid came knocking for Ronaldo.

There's no point discussing "where the arteta money went". Aside from the fact that none of us have the facts to hand, its a completely irrelevant discussion. It doesn't matter if it went to the banks or into Moyes transfer pot, or whether it was a fire sale, or whether Arteta demanded a move. We do know our net spend is roughly zero overall and that the club spends all of its cash within the club on operating costs such as player salaries and fees.

If we accept that we have a budget of about £60M to spend on the squad, then we're still in the top half in financial terms in the league. If Moyes refuses to work with that budget then thats his issue. He's a professional "manager"; I expect him to do his job and manage within the constraints of the club.

Yes in a heartbeat.

Would you put up with 11 more years of no trophies and no wins at Anfield for a top 8 finish every year?

MOB logic
Moyes has lost 4, Martinez has Won 5. Quick get Martinez before he gets snapped up. Top 4 for Moyes is laughed at, and then someone has the brass neck to pitch someone who has struggled with four bloody wins. Joke, joke, joke.

Ug, we want that one. Yes, but he's shit. Yes, but he's new shit, he passes it a lot before they concede, he has no connections with everton, so we wont feel bad when we stick a knife in his back and moan about him later. Plus Peter is thinking of Spanish variations for dithering or daft given he has the bloody trademark on using it on all his posts since 1636.

Yes it should. But it's still a good effort for a headline

The thing is I now deal in the present and all though things look okay as in league position at the moment, there is no blue print being laid down for the future. Moyes won't embrace youth and the board can't spend so what should we do? Waffle on about Moyes all you want but, between himself and Boys Pen Bill, they have conned the lot of you for years. I think now Moyes knows he is rumbled after the Leroy Fer bollocks and wants away. Brassneck Kenwright doesn't give a shite and will hang on forever.

http://90minutesup.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/team-analysis-swansea-city.html

Those examples just illustrate how poor he has been because if managers of that calibre have somehow won something why cant Moyes.

AN Other above said "Whoever the new guy is I'll give him a few weeks then get right into him if he hasn't won the world cup". That might have been meant as a bit of a laugh. But betcha there will be some of the usual suspects who will be expecting glory immediately from the new guy, and some of them who will excuse any immediate lack of glory by saying he needs time to settle in.

For those who'd want immediate glory, I'd say that's one of the problems. In this instant gratification society, some expect all they want, right now, or they spit the dummy.

For those who'd excuse a lack of immediate glory, I'd say if Moyes was so bad, and his errors so obvious, no other manager needs any time to identify and rectify the errors. So who's your man who's going to do that?!

1) Players who left against Moyes wishes. (Lescott, Rooney, Arteta) £60M

2) Debt the club has taken on(too much in my opinion).

You can rewrite history and say it was Moyes genius that has given us all this cash, but in reality he would rather have kept those players.

With the Swansea and Bradford final only 4 out of 21 domestic cup comps under Moyes' reign have been won outside of the teams with money.

And I know you don't believe in the point you've made because I don't believe you'd want those two as manager.

I'm more concerned re the missed opportunities such as the League cup semi V Chelsea, the FA semi V Liverpool, Vilarreal at home, Sporting Lisbon and Fiorentina. They were really big games where the team lost through BAD TACTICS and particularly lack of derring do by Moyes.

Still no Anfield win. No win at Old Trafford or Emirates or league win at Chelsea. What is it now? ... 48 games away at the old top four?

Even Blackpool have won at Anfield. WBA have won there this season and last season.

As for the FA cup this season, if we get to the semi then Moyes will bottle it as he has done the last two times. Yes, I include the Utd semi. Moyes got lucky that day. Poor performance against a reserve team and didnt manage a shot of note.

And don't start me on last season's derby at Anfield.

How dare you I assure you that I believe everything I say on here. , just on your stat on 4 out of 21 cups well if you take Birmingham winning the League Cup as a starting point then after Sunday that stat will be 2 out of 5 and Cardiff came awfully close to making that 3.

The Sky 4 are no more the landscape has changed but can you honestly say that Moyes has adapted with it.

Fantastic post above. Laudrup will have acheived more in one season than Moyes in 11.

I agree that the board and the running of the club isn't what it should be but the board had nothing whatsover with the tactics or lack of them employed by the Manager in the second half at wembley last season.

Fanciful blather. Right, I'm off to bed to dream of hoof balls and long throw-ins from Neville.

I respect anyone who believes in Moyes coming on here to defend him. Why do so many feel the need to slag off his critics? The original post is unbalanced and provocative. As Eugene has suggested Jim has tried to depict the critics of Moyes as deranged. I see the OP as sentimental twaddle. Poor Moyes hounded out by the MOB with nothing other than multi-millions, the respect of his peers and a media who fawn over him and his master to comfort him.

I doubt he'll go but, Brent, if he does the new manger will get exactly respect he did, which, unless you intend re-writing history was considerable and long standing.

The laziness on my part is in not directing my post at specific, named individuals. I fully accept that there are those like you taking a reasonable stance. Having said that, I think my comments are valid, as directed at the rest. So my reference to instant gratification I think might apply to some but clearly not yourself.

I guess my reference to instant gratification is clumsy as well as I also have in mind those who think it's their god-given right to have whatever they want (whether that's re EFC or in life generally) and I acknowledge they might arrive at that expectation over time and not instantly.

So, having said that, would you go along with any of that sentiment?

That aside, I think this article is representative of the attitude of so many Evertonians: (a) complacency in regard to the current state affairs and (b) melodramatic fear in regard to what might come if the adherence to the current modus operandi were to be abandoned.

Football is, at the end of the day, one of the products of the entertainment industry, and if you want be a bit programmatic about it, you could assign it to the genera of "art" and "culture." However you might be inclined to view things, the fact remains that Everton of today are permeated with the spirit of drabness, a philistinism of the most odious kind.

The people who used to run this club some decades ago understood what it was all about. It is not just a matter of doing certain thing; it is also a matter of doing them in a certain way. "The school of science" is a regulative principle which should always guide your conduct, regardless of your bank balance.

We are drab because we have no money is statement which does not deserve to be taken seriously. There are drab teams with lots of money, just as there are not-drab teams with little or no money.

I have had enough of the working class ethics of Moyes. It is high time for him to leave.

More annoying than when we start the game defending from the off as if we're scared of the opposition is when have played really well and more attack may produce a better result, but with 10 minutes left a defensive substitution is made.

Moyes has put teams out that have shown they can play football and the very next week, or even in the second half of a game they revert to type and sit back. Why?

It isn't all black & white about either wanting him to stay or go. Personally I don't care, we'll get another manager if he goes, whether that turns out to be a good thing or not, we’ll have to wait and see as he eventually will leave, but I do agree with you that a major obstacle to the Club progressing is the board.

He will never be offered a "big club" job. He is too afraid to take a chance in games, does not possess the winning mentality. He is afraid to take a chance to win a game in case it opens the team up and he loses the game.

Make no mistake — he will sign the contract.

Short version, good for both Moyes, Kenwright ( and by default the Board )

Their 'good ponts' got us where we are, their 'bad points' stop us from going forward.

There are 5 stages in some peoples public working life ( credit where credit's due to Jack Ellam )

1) Who's David Moyes.

2) Try David Moyes.

3) Get Me David Moyes

4) I want a David Moyes type

5) Who's David Moyes.

Me? I'm for No.4, with a bit more attacking attitude.

The original post could have just been : "Be careful what you wish for!"

With each place in the table soon to be worth £1M, most owners may well feel they've won the league with merely a top half finish. (I'm sure BK feels that way!)

Domestic cups have lost their financial relevance in this climate and only us speccies cling to the glory aspect of the open-top bus bus after a Wembley triumph. Understandably, most managers have picked up on this (Laudrup appears to be the exception!) and, therefore, inflict their pragmatism on us in the cause of swelling their pension funds via league place bonuses.

Thus BK will always say Moyes has done a wonderful job.Virtually every journo will tell you the same, usually qualifying that with "in the circumstances..."

But, most importantly, I guess at least 50% of Evertonians will also subscribe to the view although amongst the match-goers it might be substantially fewer.

So, as one who has repeatedly charted my reservations about `Our Davey`, I would welcome a fresh face. Otherwise, with nothing to cheer for 18 years, I swear I'll die of boredom.

Oh, I forgot — we did finish fourth once and got to lose at Wembley... Cancel the taxi!

Before he was given the benefit of the doubt for bringing centre halves on - no longer - it's taken far too long for the majority to remind him "this is EFC" but he's getting it now.

Impossible for him to stay now.

Dennis (157) - Or more accurately, "Be careful what you wish for..you drooling, unhinged, mad-eyed loons".

Swansea have had a pretty lucrative run in the League Cup compared with ours in the 2009 FA Cup. Yes, they played and beat Liverpool and Chelsea (the latter much against the run of play in both games) but managed to catch both when they were at their worst. Then who do they get in the final? Bradford.

Swansea will probably beat Bradford and lift the League Cup and their manager will have won a trophy in his first season.... something Moyes has been unable to do in 11 years. Ergo, Laudrup is a better manager than Moyes.

Bullshit.

If we had had 25% of the luck in 2009 that Swansea have had this year and the Shite last year then it could have been a situation where both Evertonians and the media were extolling Moyes as one of the best managers ever because he had won a trophy with a team built for pennies.

It can't be measured in trophies any more than it can be measured in style of play. Moyes has had to work with what he has got and what he has got provided some of the best football not only from Everton but from within the premiership as a whole at the end of last season and the first half of this one. Does anybody seriously believe that at present Moyes is saying to players before a game, 'right lads I want you get out there and play like shit today. I've had enough of the good stuff and I want to see us win ugly. So get out there and piss all the fans off with your incompetence'?

The fact is the squad is very small so there is little room for resting players (the last time he tried that we got beat at Leeds) So the same players are playing week in week out and the only rest to be had is when they are injured. He made the horrendous mistake of putting on another centre-half in order to defend a slim lead for the last few minutes when under an aerial bombardment from a team fighting for their lives. All managers do that and most of the time it works and nobody thinks any more of it. Sometimes it goes wrong and then everybody perceives it as a horrendous substitution, a horrible error. Sack him.

Moyes is probably as pissed off as any Evertonian at the lack of progress towards winning things. But don't blame him for that blame the fact that we can't bring international substitutes on during Wembley cup finals. We can't rest a misfiring midfielder because we don't have another one to replace him. We can't afford to be in the business of buying top-class players and it is difficult enough to keep the better players we have got! I would have loved the opportunity to watch a team with Jags partnering Lescott at the back with Baines and the lad who went to Spurs and whose name eludes me at the moment (!) as fullbacks. With Arteta, Moutinho and Riquelme in midfield feeding Rooney up front. All players we either couldn't get or couldn't keep.

That could have been the spine of our team right now and the reason it isn't is not down to Moyes it is down to Everton Football Club as a failing business and the Board who run it.

So place the blame where it belongs and not at Moyes' door. Moyes took over a sow's ear and has made as much of a silk purse out of it as he can....that is why we and he are pissed off and why he may well leave in the summer in order to fulfil his own ambitions. And I would not blame him one iota but would be sorry to see him go.

You can give opinions about all else such as the style of football, but not the simple stats, which destroy your argument.

Speaking of which... it's been a long time since a takeover rumour has surfaced. I predict one in the near future — £300 million should do wipe: all dept away, build a new stadium, but it falls through when Bill realises he has to vacate the Chairman's office.

If he doesn't want to stay or wants to think about, then so be it. If he stays, he stays and will get support from the fans, if he goes he gets a brief farewell and then all attention turns to the new guy and he will quickly be forgotten.

There is no sleight against Everton, he clearly is weighing up his options and probably whether he wants to go through the same old shit year-in, year-out... get a side near enough to force into the upper part of the league... wait, we have to sell one of our best players and begin again, etc etc

I see also that the player apologists are not blaming the players for fucking up their chances too, irrespective of a poor substitution or defensive outlook, it's their jobs to either score, set up chances or defend... yet many of the "bertter" players aren't doing this.

The main issue lies with the board but moyes has continually backed them over the years so is not exactly guilt free here. Whenever he hasn't gotten his way he has tended to sulk like a big kid but then still accepted the situation [and the money] as opposed to standing up to BK (remember the contract saga in 2008?). For a supposedly principled man, he's still willing to accept the BK bullshit and Everton salary - after 11 years he's still here so I don't go with the 'he must be so frustrated' line. He will never have a better job in football management [and he probably knows it].

No evertonian can honestly say they are not grateful to Moyes for steadying the ship - I certainly am. However, I personally think that he plateaued a couple of years ago and should have left around 2009/2010. If he's so frustrated by the board, why has he stayed for 11 years? (I can think of 4 million reasons for that one...).

He steadied the ship but will currently go down in the histroy books as being the longest serving manager to have won nothing. Added to that our cup runs have been nothing short of abysmal over the last decade. Before Moyes came I believe we held the record for most number of semi final appearances in the fa cup. Even in the dark days we still enjoyed regular cup runs.

Despite the easy draw and the fact that most of the 'big teams' are already out of the fa cup this year, I'm not holding my breath. When it comes to knock out competitions he just doesnt seem to have what it takes to get the team firing. Fulham, blackburn, reading, oldham, shrewsbury, birmingham - all non 'big' teams to have dumped us out in recent years, when a draw is not an option, he just seems a bit lost.

Given the choice of i) regular top 10 finishes, playing mostly boring football and winning nothing, or ii) more erratic league finishes but with decent cup runs and the odd trophy - I would without a doubt choose the latter. (And before people start, it is/was by no means guaranteed that we would have been relegated had Moyes not joined us (as alluded to in the OP) - after all the last time we were relegated was 1951!).

For me, I just cannot dream with this guy in charge - its gotten dull and stale. Fresh faces are needed to liven the place up and I think for Moyes' own sake, he needs a new challenge elsewhere. He should just come out now and say he will leave at the end of the season, rather than using us as an insurance policy in case nothing better comes up. If we had a better board, he would not be allowed to use the club as an insurance policy.

My big wish this season is for Moyes to break out of his shell and lead us to FA Cup glory in May.....and then bid farewell on a high note. A young european manager then comes in with fresh ideas and we look forward to the next chapter of this great club.

Players like Neville, Naismith and Hitz never touch the 1st team again and are shipped out. Fellaini goes to Chelsea/Citeh for a large cash pile and the new manager uses the cash and his european experience wisely to bring in 3-4 fresh faces of the Michu/Ba calibre........and we do a Montpelier in his first season in charge.

Here's to dreaming......focus back to Norwich...

Take Arsenal or Liverpool - they desperately need a manager to take them 2 - 4 places higher than their funding suggests. I wouldn't bet against him doing it.

WBA, Swansea & Villa all win at various top 4 grounds, as Ian Edwards #119 points out. However WBA's win at anfield was a 31 shots at goal to 3, favouring the RS so thank fuck for lady luck because she hardly ever pops up when we need her, ohhh fuck wait a minute - we had two shots at goal at Man City, both went in and then we defended for the other 89 minutes. No not once - two years running.

For me Everton will always have a full on game at anfield & chelsea, SAF will always field his strongest his team against us and Wenger has gone on record as saying "Everton is one of the hardest games of the season". We are a top 6 outfit and we are shown that respect. Swansea????? they turned up at GP and defended for almost 90 minutes - they were fucking shite, but hey their manager must be switched on by showing that much respect for some outfit managed by David Moyes.

I can't understand why the MOB are still moaning, the man is all but gone. We will soon have some new suited and booted manager rolling the dice - I just hope he takes as much shite as moyes does when he's not winning at ManU or Chelseas or City or getting someone in blue to score at anfield before getting the shite kicked out of them on the pitch.

"I made a change this year in my approach," he says. "I am always a bit cautious so most years I would say let's get the points to be safe from relegation and we move on from there.

"That wasn't my start this year. My start this year was nothing like that.

"It was to say we are aiming to finish in the top six. I had changed and I wanted that to get to the players and come out through the supporters.

"I wanted not to get off to a bad start, so I tried to change everything to avoid that. Maybe I should have just said to get the points to avoid relegation.

"It's tough at lots of times. I have a really good group of players, good players, and they are due to show. They all think it as well, I think it, so come on then.

"You might miss chances, but you keep making them, but what you don't do is lose.

Mr David Moyes – December 2010.

McFadden's shot back off the post in the Legaue cup semi v Chelsea. The injuries leading up to 2009 and Phil Neville's slip to allow Lampard in, Distin's backpass against Liverpool, Sebastien Frei having the game of any keepers life at Goodison for Fiorentina, Iniesta scoring with the last kick against Chelsea to leave them solely concentrating on the FA Cup.

Contrast that with other supposedly brilliant managers who have/ probably will win tropheis. Benitez, the luckiest of the lot of them (no more needs to be said on that front), Dalglish, played a City side shorn of Kompany, Toure, Silva and Aguero in the league cup semi final, they then got awarded a pen that wasn't a pen. In the final they met a championship side that proceeded to outplay them, they scored from a corner despite not looking like scoring at all, and then despite missing their first two penalties still managed to win the shoot out as Cardiff bottled all of theirs. Lucky lucky lucky. Di Matteo had Messi missing a penalty go his way, Laudrup got gifted the semi final by Ivanovic at Stamford Bridge, Ferguson in his two european cup wins had Bayern hitting the bar and John terry slipping over on a pen that comes back off the wood work (not that Ferguson relies on luck I'm just using these examples).

Sometimes you need a bit of luck to get you over the line and for Moyes it has never happened. Even this year in the league he's had Gibson and Mirallas out, refs have docked a lot of crucial points, teams seem to score with the once chance they're getting (Bassong for Norwich Sidwell for Fulham Dempasey Tottenham) yet you regularly watch teams miss hatfuls of chances elsewhere. I think Weimann's miss against us was the first miss I've seen this season from anyone when given a decent chance, everyone seems to score against us. In the cups he has been the architect of many of our downfalls int he earlier rounds but when we have got to the later stages of tournaments he has not had the luck required to take that extra step, the sort of luck that Laudrup and Dalglish unfortunately seem to possess.

Virtually every other club did something to strengthen their squad.
Newcastle bought FIVE new players and I reckon they will be good challengers next season.
Every other top side has an abundance of players to choose from.
They can cope with injuries and suspensions and still are reported scouting talent with identified targets for the summer.

We have loaned out (so far) four players SINCE January including two of our regular bench occupants.
We have loaned in NONE !!

How on earth can ANY manager be expected to maintain a push for europe and have a good cup run with the squad he has available at everton.

Two loaves and five fishes come to mind.

I don't see it as Moyes having an insurance policy, I see it more as a warning to the board, if they don't back him then he'll walk.

And it looks like Bill is calling his bluff by the lack of transfer activity in January, but Moyes isn't folding yet.

When we scored that last-minute winner e.g. vs Tottenham in December, take a look at his celebration and the steely look in his eyes. I'm pleased to say that I've seen that celebration so many times since he joined us. He celebrates like a fan – not a manager. He loves this club – end of .

I hope he wins a trophy before he leaves – not for us or the players, but for himself. He deserves it for the effort, loyalty and dignity that he's displayed since he joined us. In relative terms I would give Moyes the status of Everton legend.

I just don`t believe that Moyes is the Master Manager so many believe him to be; that's why I just don't see he and his mate BK being part of a better future for Everton. The two are part of the same problem.

I can absolutely guarantee Moyes is not as pissed off at not winning trophies as this Evertonian.

As far as "Bill gives me every penny he can" maybe the reporters don't hear the bit under his breath about 'from player sales and after the banks have taken their money'

The issue I have with Moyes is that for all his People's Club mutterings and genuine desire to win something at Everton, I don't think he understands the club, its past and its fans. If he did, he would never wax lyrical about Phil Neville as a footballer like he does. To me, Alan Ball, Colin Harvey, Trevor Stephen etc. these are players who deserve the superlatives for which Moyes reserves for his captain. His admiration of his captain sums up to me his whole ethos. Nothing fancy. Nothing too adventurous. Work hard. Give 100%. If in doubt, launch it. Ultimately, fall short when it matters. I always think that Moyes' ideal team would feature eleven solid pros. In interviews he uses terms like "trying hard", "can't fault the players" etc. or before the game he'll use phrases like "trying to give a good performance". These are the type of lines you expect from a manager of a Division One side or even a non League outfit rather than an established Premier League team with, in his own words, "the best group of players I've worked with".

I think it'll be a sad day when he goes but I'd hope we could find someone with more footballing based principles. I don't fall for the notion that playing football on the deck is a sure fire way to get relegated and the KITAP1 approach is the way forward. If you look throughout football there is a change in attitude. Smaller players with ability on the ball are on the increase. Barcelona have led the way and others are following. I'd like to see us adopt some of these principles and get back to enjoying the game again. I also happen to think it's the way to win football matches.

It is a great shame that DM will likely leave Everton without winning a single thing, but he must take a certain amount of blame for that... albeit not as chunky a slice of blame as dear old Bill.

How's about a straight swap for Wenger anyone?!!

The replacement has to be savvy enough to work in the Prem, have enough contacts to get in quality players for next to nothing (like NUFC have just done), get the most out of selling the family silver (Fellaini and Baines), and be able to praise Bill when interviewed as the reason he came.

He has to be able to come up with a good Plan B and possibly Plan C each game (which Davey can't) and not be scared of the bigger-name players guaranteeing them a game even if they are playing as badly as humanly possible.

A good start would be to re-jig the "People's Club" phrase to get us all behind him and refer to LFC as "The Shite" at least once in the first week to get our heckles up for the new season....

COYB

The reason I seem to argue a lot or sound sarcastic is because the MOB see everything as Moyes's fault no matter what. Jelly missing an absolute sitter to make it 3-1 and we can't defend after being fouled and hands getting thrown everywhere..... this is solely Moyes's fault, nothing else and that's the way it is with every game we don't win.....and even some we do..... which is absolutely mindboggling

"Now, where can we make that "stadium in a Tesco car park" thing work?

The biggest problem we have is the apathy of the wealthy board members who just do nothing to promote the club. They are the only ones that I would blame for us not winning trophies in Moyes tenure.

I am increasingly of the view that Moyes will leave us at the end of the season, and will probably move abroad - may be to Germany. The board must surely by now be looking at a replacement, and that's not an easy thing to do, but I would be happy if they'd go for Michael Laudrup or Roberto Martinez. Foreigners with Premier League experience.

Moyes's successor will have a hard job, though. He will have to prove that the Scotsman's work can be improved on under the current financial circumstances.

"David Moyes will go at the end of the season but what no-one seems to take on board is that the idiot running the club, Fat Bill, will be interviewing and selecting his replacement".

Well BK will be part of the process but remember, he doesn't have the final word.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Everton-David-Moyes-celebrates-10-years-as-manager-at-Goodison-and-looks-back-on-favourite-moments-article876127.html

And it looks like Bill is calling his bluff by the lack of transfer activity in January, but Moyes isn't folding yet.'

This January is not the first time Moyes has supposedly given a kind of ultimatum to the board re transfer funds and the board have not coughed up. It's happended many times so not sure what Moyes is expected to happen this time round. The board cannot given him money the club does not have. If he wants a transfer kitty then he needs to sell and reinvest - maybe Fellaini for 25-30m. My view still remains that he's waiting to see what the managerial merry go round will bring in May/June and see if by a miracle a 'bigger club' offers him the chance.

I cannot see any German team that has qualified for the CL coming in for him - certainly wont be Bayern or BVB and the other CL qualifiers will likely keep the manager who got them there.

Good luck to him if he does go to Germany - I doubt it will be a club as 'big' as Everton though. - again imo, the best managerial job he will ever have.

I'm not saying that every season should be about avoiding relegation, or that we are or have been close to avoiding relegation under Moyes - we are clearly not. Admittedly the start to most seasons has been poor, but I don't think any of us have genuinely worried about relegation.

My point was that regardless of how well things are going, Moyes constantly belittles our achievements and talks down our potential. Every season, till we have 40pts, he carps on about making sure we get to the 40pt mark. We could be in 1st place with 13 wins out of 13 games and he'd probably still be going on about it.

I mentioned it to highlight how negative the guy is. He is Mr Glass-Half-Full. A goal ahead? Pack the entire team behind the ball incase the opposition score a goal. Creative forward-thinking player make a mistake? Pack him off to the reserves for 9 months. New signing? Keep him on the bench for 3 months until you're 100% sure he's good enough. Young player? Wait till he's 24 before you're prepared to give him a run in the first team. Leading in the last 5 minutes of a game(to a team 2 divisions below)? Take off your only attacking outlet and put a defender on.

The guy is paralysed by fear of failure and risk averse....and he will probably never win anything.

Jesus Christ....

Back to the main point, I admire Moyes in lots of ways but if he does go we will get someone else. Everton is forever but the fans, managers and even Bill all peg it in the end.

Bill and his team of dodgy cronies are the ones who I really want to go, I have nothing but contempt for Kenwright, Woods, Earl and all the other twats involved with the club. How Moyes has worked with them is beyond me but it does seem that maybe he has had enough. The transfer window was the biggest chance in years to add to the squad with quality and try and push on

They fucked it up and it will haunt us

All I am stating is the grass could be greener if we had someone else, its Moyes decision if that happens. no one is forcing him out!. Imagine the situation if all of the season ticket holders took the view of Moyes, there would be no Everton!. People say the reasons are, he is ambitious, does that suggest the season ticket holders are not. Everton have been good to Moyes so how does he repay them?, by not signing the contract. If I was a chairman and employee did not commit I would be looking for a replacement now!!

Moyes has put in 11 years of hitting the glass ceiling time and again, and if the board can't change - he will. But this is at the end of his second long term contract. He's hardly jumping ship at the first sign of... I don't know how to complete that analogy.

Is he worth his salary? Well, there's a reason he's third. Because he's put in the years that allow him such a salary. Most managers need to prove themselves with every club they are appointed to. Rarely managers stick around for long, but when they do its because expectation are achieved or bettered on a long term basis. Hence his £££ contract.

Average good job? No. If that was the case he'd have already been sacked.

For me, it is pretty simple. Moyes made it clear he would not make a decision on his contract until after the January transfer window, when he could assess what support he had been given to progress his team... ie, he was not forced to sell his key players and the board supported him to strengthen his squad to push on for the CL spots. So the transfer window comes and goes and he may not have been forced to sell any players but there have been no signings that will immediately strengthen the squad to push for that CL place.

I got the impression from the press conferences, shortly after the Fer collapse, he was not too happy that the pin was pulled on the Fer transfer. I felt that he may not have agreed with the decision, although I think he is too professional to come out and criticise the board publically. He did make an off-the-cuff remark that perhaps they left it too late in their transfer dealings, which you could read into not getting the support from the board he was looking for. There is no evidence of how it actually went down but that is my impression of the situation.

So, after that, I feel that he quite rightly looked at the situation at the end of this window and said to himself, "Right, I didn't get the support I was looking for to progress this team so I am not prepared to commit myself to a new contract at this stage. I will look at things again at the end of the season and see what support I will be given over the summer to progress Everton before I commit to a new contract."

What message would it send to the board if he didn't get the support he indicated he was looking for before signing a new contract and he signed anyway? I for one would be gutted to see Moyes go at the end of the season, if he does, but I am glad he has given himself a negotiating chip to force support from the board in the summer if he is going to commit to a new contract. That can only be good for progressing Everton.

It's not unreasonable to think another manager will keep us competitive, but to move us on from this position would be virtually impossible under Kenwright.

"Why should members of the Board be expected to subsidise the Club out of their own pockets?"

If they don't "subsidise" the club, ie invest in it, and if they don't generate the wherewithal to fund playing acquisitions, then what is the point of them?

I don't like him – and wouldn't like to see him employed by Everton.