My take on Moyes's Everton reign

I don't care how much money you give Moyes to spend or by how much you increase a players salary, it doesn't make either of them better at what they do. Basically Moyes and Round have nothing more to teach anyone. Every free-kick, every corner... in fact, every game just pass like the last one.

Arsene Wenger is under pressure at Arsenal and he has won everything bar the Champions League there — although he was very unlucky in 2006 final. Wenger is a cash-cow making pure millions from his buying and selling. Wenger's youth policy is second to none, bringing them through or buying abroad... yet he is some how under pressure. What has Moyes really ever done to merit such adulation he receives from Evertonians?

Please don't say we would've been relegated without Moyes or he is a genuis compared to Smith. No Everton manager since 1951 has managed to get us relegated so Moyes isn't the only one to keep us up. Smith had it harder than any Everton manager I can think of. By comparison, Moyes has had a walk in the park.

David Moyes is, and always will be, a nearly man; not quite the bottle to see things through.

Why are we bored? I'll tell you why. This Saturday we know what team will start, we know if we're winning what will happen, we know what subs will come on, we already know the press report before the game, i.e Norwich is a good team on a good run of form, it will be very tough for us... blah blah blah. We know everything there is to know!! It's like shagging your wife of 50 years — you no all the moves she will make! It becomes stale and boring.

We are bored, Moyes!! How about a few changes, eh, David? How about a change of personnel? After all, you seem to think they need a rest? How about a change of formation? How about going gung-ho for the rest of the season — attack, attack, attack! How about,.... ermmm anything... bloody give us something?? Call Bill a cunt, tell us you shagged his wife, tell the fans we're going all out attack at Anfield to tank those twats...

It will never happen though. So I guess I may as well get my knife sharpened,ready for the gunfight this Saturday...

What annoys me is the fact some people just look at the negatives of Moyes, which are clearly demonstrable in the way he talks at times and his tactics.

But he has taken us to a new level from where we were under Smith, we are under the cusp of winning something or getting regular European football if we had 2 or 3 'Pienaar's' or 'Mirallas's'.
I can't blame Moyes at all, if the board had the money to add in January we could be in more of a positive mood looking forward.

It really disturbs me how some fans are reacting to Moyes tenure, saying he is nearly man etc, it's beyond ridiculous.
With the resources we've had, who could of done a better job in the past decade?

I for one hope Moyes does sign, with the money being pumped in in the summer, we could go even better next year.
This summer could decide our immediate future on where we stand as a club, Moyes's departure could see some of our faithful players go in different directions and I'm not even mentioning Fellaini.
So for all those people wanting him to go, just think about what could happen in the summer.

And before you give me the whole "They spent £100 million on players" — yes, they did... but they bought shite. On paper, we are a much better team but in the real world we are simply no match for them or their fans.

Their fans demand excellence; we accept what Moyes gives us... 11 years and we are still miles away in terms of football and mentality.

It's not about money when it comes to poor starting XIs and awful tactics. Its not the lack of funds that make such baffling substitutions, often pointless, that cost us games, ie, Oldham last week.

Unless Moyes undergoes some miraculous transformation, money will never matter. Money will give Moyes the chance to bring in better players but I don't think Moyes wants to manage the type of players we need to improve. I feel Moyes would feel threatened by highly skilled players or players who have an edge to them, hence all the quiet unassuming types that litter his current squad. No talkers, no hardmen, no real flair players — just nice lads who don't say boo to a goose... Never going to work is it?

Negative goal difference (shows how piss-poor the league was that year)... I'm glad we got knocked out because we would've been made a laughing stock in Europe... I mean, picture that team versus Barca or Madrid? Exactly.

And remember, it wasn't a tactical masterclass from the ginger one — he copied the blueprint front the Greece team that won the Euros!!! He said so himself!

I never thought people would use Walter Smith as a stick to beat Moyes with. Wow. Even for the most avid anti-Moyes that's a step too far.

Let's just look at facts shall we? Smith would take a team looking like they would finish in the top half and make them a mid table side. I give you 1999/2000 when we were in the top half virtually all season and then managed to finish 13th?

Moyes takes a mid table team and gets you a few positions higher.

Smith's teams were never fit to last 90 mins. Under Moyes they can go well past the 90 minute.

Both had the same lack of funds issue and both were forced to sell key players. The only advantage Moyes has over Smith is he works with BK while Smith worked under PJ early on and was lied to.

Smith seemed to take the "40 pts mark literally" because once we reached it we seemed to completely give up.

Next you'll be telling me that HK Mk II or III were infinitely better or start talking of Gordon Lee in a flattering light compared to Moyes.

Moyes is not perfect but at least we don't have the pundits predicting relegation for us every season which is what we endured under Smith!

But Ferguson aside, Moyes tenure has been very similar to that of Smith, with the notable exceptions of the quality of player seen at GP, and the relative improvements in achievement, by that I mean comfortable top half as opposed to nervous lower half.

Either way, both managers tenure suffered under the stewardship of Chairman/owners who where out of their depth, and clueless as to how to run a football club effectively and successfully. The big difference is that the previous incumbent owner was hounded out, where as this charlatan is just fine, after all he's 'one of us' !!

All just my opinion of course..............

You could argue that Smith inherited a mixed bag of players but some were very good (Unsworth, Hutchinson, Ferguson, Barmby)

Moyes inherited an ageing squad of mediocre players with only Stubbs, Carsley, Tommy and perhaps a couple of others you could say were any good. He was fortunate at the timing of Rooney as was Smith with Ball and Jeffers but he had the likes of Gazza, Ginola (or am I wrong?), Blomquist etc to phaze out.

Moyes vs Smith is only a contest when talking about who has the more dour persona. Smith did.

Some of the anti-Moyes mob (and I hate saying this because it means going back to the 90's) might be looking a bit silly in 6 months time.

Bottom line - BK must go otherwise this farce will continue. Unless he has some Swansea grand plan?

On that theme - who chose Smith (presumably PJ?) HK Mk III & Royle?

If BK had nothing to do with them then maybe we might be optimistic about the next choice...

> They obviously managed the same players but Moyes arguably got more out of the likes of Big Dunc, Ratzinski and Grav
> Both Scottish
> Both worked under incompetant boards

Otherwise they are like chalk and cheese.

Smith was of the old school. Like a poor man's Fergie unable to understand modern methods. His teams were individuals, unfit and incredibly inconsistent.

"It is now clear that Walter can have no long term future at Everton. When you've lost the fan's to this degree, there is no turning back. Walter has to go. But should he go now or in the summer? Whichever way we go, we are gambling with our Premiership survival.

If we get rid of Walter today, then there is a very limited field of possibles to turn to. It is unlikely that the likes of Dave Jones, Gary Megson, or David Moyes would jump ship now. Instead, we would have to look towards the quick fix, out of work managers like Joe Royle, Howard Kendall or George Graham. The stark choice seems to be between a hope that Walter can pull something together, or an "inspiring" caretaker appointment. Hobson's choice in my eyes.

No wonder Bill Kenwright looked haunted at half time. He is wrestling with a monumental decision. Please God, let him get this right.

Simonsen 6 Culpable for the goal and another later misunderstanding with Weir. Has the honeymoon period ended? This is a big test for him now.

Pistone 6 Apart from the goal a generally tidy performance.

Weir 6 Did OK but the defence let in three.

Stubbs 6 Ditto Weir.

Clarke 6 Did alright.

Unsworth 6 Another who did OK.

Linderoth 5 After a tidy start totally disappeared.

Gascoigne 5 Was this his swan song? Looked off the pace and past it.

Gemmill 5 Once again failed to influence the game.

Radzinski 5 Isolated in the first half. Missed our best chances in the second.

Moore 5 Maybe this was why Watson was preferred in attack to him. Utterly ineffectual.

Alexandersson 5 Yet again failed to deliver.

Chadwick 6 One of the few to come out with any sort of credit. Looked willing, linked well with Radz on a couple of occasions.

Blomqvist 6 A couple of good runs.

Team 4 An utter shocker. Bereft of everything.

Man of the match Doesn't seem right to give one. But, if anyone, probably Stubbs.

There was no money at all and Smith was in survival mode as manager. It was ups and downs.

As is often the case it came down to having a decent front man. So, when Kev Campbell got a knee injury, and was never the same again, after knocking in 12 league or something by January, we dipped. There was no future planing, it was short term existence management. Hence the low value squad and older players signed to do a job in the short term.

That changed with Moyes approach of signing younger players with sell on value.

Turning things around and trying to get up the table, by hook or by crook. In the main that was by being incredibly hard working, tight and very good from dead ball and corners in attack (what happened there btw??). The culture of the club was transformed in terms of professionalism, work ethic and respect for the club and what it means to play for it. If you take the piss now you are gone.

However, last season we would have been due for our worst season under Moyes for a long time and quite possibly would have been mixing it in the bottom 6 if we hadnt been able to freshen things up. I believe before the window last season Moyes had firmly put his tin hat on and was in survival mode and was all about staying up. Moyes had been caught up in the financial spiral, he couldnt bring anyone in and we definitely would have finished in the bottom half. When we brought in Strac, think Smith bringing in Mark Hughes, similarly desperate moves. We would definitely have been left with a Smith-esque finishing position.

Smith left Moyes a squad that was a top 8-10 squad. Moyes got them fitter and up for it, plus there was the Rooney bounce. All in all Smith got dealt a bad hand at Everton and he did ok.

The wheels had well and truly come off when he left. Maybe things had just run their course by that point, it was time and Smith was out of ideas, inspiration or energy. We got exactly what we needed.

Christine Foster put it best recently, Smith bought us time.

Moyes is very good at getting the most out of players, I'm a firm believer of that. Yes you could argue that he doesn't work well with players like Mirallas who have an extra 'dimension' to them in an attacking sense but at least he's tried to bring someone in who can bring that but extra to our front line-up.

Moyes has probably the best squad he's ever had but the quality of the league has shot up since we were in the Champions League, look back at that squad, it was all about cohesion, team- spirit and a willingness to hold onto a narrow lead for vital points. For this half of the season that has been lacking, freshness and squad size plays a big role in that, 2-3 players may have changed some of our results.

I also disagree about the comment regarding starting XI/subs/tactics.
He get's it wrong sometimes but he get's it right on other occasions.
Moyes watches these players train everyday, why do you think he won't start Hitzlsperger in CM when Neville plays there? Perhaps because he values Neville's form/fitness/etc higher, this applies to every position.
Or maybe Duffy over Heitinga?

Another is why did Duffy come on at the last minute against Oldham?
Some people had a huge tantrum and thought, oh it's negative tactics yet again by dour Moyes.
I thought it was a sensible change, you've got Matt Smith at 6'6, it makes sense. But most of our players switched off no one did a proper job at that last corner and it cost us. Oviedo defensively in the last 10 minutes was all over the place, was that Moyes's fault? Or are players now immune to criticism completely?

If they end up being negative it's all his fault.

When players are awful, it's either them or Moyes.

When players are great, it's got nothing to do with Moyes.

So basically Everton being top 8 for about a decade on the budget of a bottom 6 club is all fluke. Moyes is dour etc etc

I am so excited by the prospect of relegation fighter Martinez coming. No, really I am.

The one area that Everton have suffered mostly is Forwards, even Duncan was pretty one-dimensional and lacked pace. I don't understand why this has not been addressed in nearly 15 years. Kevin Campbell was probably the best that has been at Goodison in those yeas. We surely must be able to locate a striker of some ability who can combine the work ethic with the quality to finish chances when they come along. Jelavic did look the part up until October time but he has made Torres look electric in comparison.

I'm hoping now that Rangers have settled their debt with Jelavic's old club that he may re-discover his form. Without him firing on all cylinders the pressure on the rest of the team may prove too much. But if Jelavic does find his goalscoring boots it could make all the difference to how we perform and of course to our results.

Walter Smith took the worst Rangers team ever to the final of the Europa league. With some money to spend he created a fine side that performed superbly in the Champions league.
He won a huge amount of trophies with Rangers.

Now , hold on, before you jump in here with the two horse race argument. Managing Rangers or Celtic is a hugely pressurised job and decent coaches have failed at it. Neil Lennon, for whom I have the greatest admiration , has dealt with and excelled under huge pressure.

Walter Smith and Neil lennon are proven winners. If David Moyes ends up at Celtic and succeeds I will never disparage his success because it will be hard earned.

Comparing Moyes with Smith ten years on is as valid as comparing him with Joe Royle.

I like Moyes as a person and respect his work ethic but he really does forget that attacking in many cases is the best form of defence. Of course every lost point or goal conceded is not down to him, but there have been too many occasions where his decisions have cost Everton dearly.

I sometimes sat at Goodison Park in the last five years and wondered what the hell I was doing there? Only the colour of the opposition's shirts changed, only habit kept me going and of course the money I had spent on a season ticket. Every game seemed to be a carbon copy of the previous game or the game before that, etc. Keep it tight until half-time and then try to win it in the last half-hour.

Then, twelve months ago, it suddenly changed; we started having a go at teams and we started to score regularly and it became enjoyable again. But what happened after we dismissed Sunderland at the Stadium of Light – one of the best nights of the modern era – we went to Anfield and got mullered and then at Wembley we gave them the opportunity to come back at us and we paid dearly.

A friend of mine started to leave the stadium as soon as the equaliser had been conceded, telling me there would only be one winner now and it wouldn't be Everton. He hasn't been to a game since and he won't until BK and DM are gone from Goodison. That's a guy who's watched Everton since the late 60s up until April 2012.

But I will compare Moyes and Smith on the basis that in our first season under the former we were 7th. That was our first top half finish for 8 years. Shameful. And Smith, Johnson, Kendall etc were complicit.

In modern football today, managers are sacked all the time, but in the same instance the guys who actually play football, the 'footballers' are devoid from criticism in most cases. This media perception has played a huge part in our opinion of the game, I just think that players often get away with it far too easily. They have a terrible game, get given a large pay sum then go home to their mansion, laughing to themselves, ha ha £50,000+ for a week's worth ain't too bad.

If it was me, if a player was consistently crap, didn't do his job properly, then he should be sacked. The problem is these days money has too big a part to play in the game, meaning that those sort of things would never happen in the top flight. But what we do see is when a team does lose their way, instantly the fans, media etc are all the manager. And then in most cases he loses his job and then the players again laugh to themselves.

Another point is there are times, like the Bolton game, where we were away from home, our first XI playing against a Championship side. We were very poor but we dug in and did what we needed to do. Did Moyes get praise for making that substitution at the end? Oh, I forgot Moyes never get's praised, only criticised when things go wrong.

Perhaps it's just me but, all is see is pessimism on this site. A lot of fans are extremely unhappy, and I don't understand why. Everyone knows we could've closed a lot of games down this year to earn more points but we are in such a good position at the moment. If we weren't scoring and playing dire football then I would complain, believe you me, but we aren't at all, we're doing well with a small squad.

Rather than comparing Smith to Moyes it's probably better to compare Moyes with Pulis, Martinez, Pardew, Wenger, Jol and Allardyce, Allardyce has one way of playing. Hammers were thankful he got them up but now want him sacked as he can't get them to play like decent footy. Pulis trying to emulate Moyes with route one first and trying to get better players in but struggling to find the right blend. Martinez has his philosophy but think about it... after years in charge they always fight relegation.I don't see their style of play as any more exciting than ours. Perhaps they get the odd good result when bigger teams think it's only Wigan at Home...

Wenger has spent good money often cherry picking the best young talent. Spent loads on crap defenders. They play good footy but have found success hard to get in the last 8 years. Pardew and Jol are inconsistent.

I've read some guff on this site but some of the above take the biscuit...Tristan take a bow. And remember Edward... without disageement this site along with others wouldn't exist.

Then, regardless of if we qualify for Europe or win the FA Cup, he will sign his new improved contract. Not quite the straight shooter a lot of people have him down as, is Mr Moyes.

On saying that, I think Moyes is as good as we'll get unless we get investment.
I honestly cant see us staying top 6/8 without him.

Just bleating "It's all BK's fault and he's had no money" is not an acceptable EXCUSE for far too many piss poor performances.

It's that lack of effort to WIN and instead playing not to LOSE which gets up my mind most. I can just about tolerate seeing us lose but ONLY if the team has given its all... Unfortunately, in 11 years of Dour Davey's reign, we very very seldom get that feeling. Which of course is why there are so many Moyes critics on TW.

No matter how good or bad he is;

How well or poorly the Board has or hasn't backed him;

It's

Time

For

A Change

And on that bombshell....goodnight

You can't have gone to many games that season because I remember some really good games that we dominated and played good football: Norwich (a), Bolton (h), Palace (h), Villa (a), Man Utd (h), Newcastle (h) off the top of my head.

Moyes is a pragmatist; I understand why that turns people off and why some yearn for something different but the polarity of opinion suggests to me something in the middle.

And you wouldn't like to give me the source of Moyes quote on Greece, I would be really interested.

But Moyes has moved on since then, as, thank God, has Pistone!

How about, for a giggle, giving it a go Tristan?

I don't think there's one player from the Smith team above that would get in our side now. We have improved immensely under Moyes as can be seen.

Can we take the next step? I don't think so. Not without money. Whether its by investment from the board or by selling our top players and re building.

Here's one (not picking on you particularly John but....)

"But Ferguson aside, Moyes tenure has been very similar to that of Smith, with the notable exceptions of the quality of player seen at GP, and the relative improvements in achievement, by that I mean comfortable top half as opposed to nervous lower half."

So apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?

Smith's record as Everton manager — he had a win rate of 32%
Moyes's record as Everton manager — his win rate is 44%.

http://toffeeweb.com/season/01-02/reports/aston-villa_a.asp

That 44% figure is his overall manager stat. For Everton it is 41.87, or in English, 211 wins from 504 games, 157 losses (31.15%) and 136 draws (26.98%) according to wiki anyway.

They are still resonable figures, but to agree with Barry (which I rarely do) he does have a poor record where it counts to the fans, you know, derbys, top four and big matches.

I have always liked Moyes, probably because I got sick of the crap, we were a laughing stock to the redshite and no-one else gave a toss. Moyes did bring back a lot of pride which I will always be thankfull for, but he does tend to bottle it when it really counts. Maybe it is the players fault, maybe that is why they end up here. It could be that they are good but crack under pressure and so are deemed not worthy of the top clubs!!

We do need a fresh approach and I still see nothing positive from Steve Round. I just don't get what he adds to the mix. He acts like a lap dog when he should be offering alternatives to make Moyes think twice, maybe the difference that we need is a change there?

Change is needed; however, let's hope we don't change Moyes for the next Scottish 'tactician' or we are in for another few years of moaning.

I had taken my 10-year-old to that match who was desperate to go and I could hardly look him in the eye afterwards. I was so angry that I decided enough was enough and gave up my season ticket that I've had for over 20 years.

I genuinely believe though, that on balance Moyes is good for Everton given our perilous financial situation. I just can't see any other manager doing what he has done with the same budget and I fear for our club if he goes.

I quite agree with the views that sometimes his team selections and formations etc are somewhat odd; and also I agree that his use and timing of substitutes is not always what it should be... and also I would agree that he is more of a defensive type coach/manager rather than an attacking one.

However, my view is that, on the whole, he has done and is still doing a fantastic job at Everton. What other club has been so consistently just outside the top 4 during his tenure with so little finances? Where are all the other clubs that have won trophies other than the top 4? I think that, if we hadn't appointed Moyes, we may well have ended up getting relegated at some point or other.

My opinion is that things may well go pear-shaped if and when he leaves if the right person is not appointed. Moyes has had a massive input on the whole structure and culture of the club and the reasons for his success (and I do consider his reign as a success) is that he has brought in players who have bought into the Everton culture and it is possibly the most harmonious squad of players in the Premier League.

My view is that, if appointments are not made from within, then the whole fabric and menatality within the club may disintegrte with devasting results. That's only my view and I hope that, when he does go, my pessimism is proved groundless.

Is Moyes with his zero trophy haul in 11 years, and slightly above average league performance the best coach that could ever manage Everton?

Some people just seem to look at the bad era under Smith and Walker and assume that any change will take us back to those times. What happens if we get a Kendal mk 1?

I'm not saying I know what will happen myself, but its clear that Moyes has taken our club as far as he's going to with the money we have. Assuming he is willing to stay, our options seem to be finish 7th or 8th every year and win nothing or take a chance that we can appoint a new upcoming coach with fresh ideas and a more positive outlook.

Walter was employed because of his trophy laden association with Rangers the Everton of his appointment wouldn't tolerate an unknown Preston manager!

The unknown Moyes appointment was acknowledgement of the reality ie forget about trophies and style just get the points... don't think anyone thought it would last more than a few years.

I completely agree with you about people wanting Moyes gone. It will be a sad and worrying day when he does move on. Incidentally, it is notable that some people who warn about "being careful what you wish for" at Board level never seem to apply the same logic to the manager.

"...slightly above average league performance..."

Do you remember the 90s, Wayne, when we were cannon fodder for any two-bit outfit who came to Goodison? When we didn't score a goal at home until October? When Uncle Walter played seven centre-halves? When we avoided relegation by the skin of our teeth?

"Moyes has taken our club as far as he's going to with the money we have."

So, it IS the lack of money that's holding us back, not Moyes.

It will be a bad day for Everton FC when David Moyes leaves. He has given this Evertonian back his pride. Obviously I am in a small minority on here.

Talking shit, maybe. But take a look at the Lisbon and Fiorentina match reports, and look at the missing players. The absence of certain players seriously exposed the weakness of our side when we are playing good sides.

His safety first at the big away games is as expected. Chelsea won the Champions League that way, and Milan turned over Barca the other day with safety first and pinched something on the counter.

The absence of quality on the bench, including extreme attacking pace, blunts our counter-attacking punch. We have none. So why does Moyes not have a strong enough bench? Over to Billy Boy, I am afraid, and a lack of transfer tokens.

True that... as much as Moyes drives us crazy at times, we're no longer mugs.

Bang on. If I was a manager I would give my eye teeth to make sure I had at least one of the above in every team I put out. Those are the players who win the games you need to win, but Moyes is happy to pick up his MASSIVE salary and blame everything on everybody and everything else apart from his lack of cahunas. Moyes surrounds himself with yes men with Phil Neville being the shining example.

Eleven years without a trophy. Brian Laudrup won a trophy in one year. Time for a change and I bet he won't earn £4M a year anywhere else.

I would rather have a team of good lads like Jaggs and Baines and the likes than these talkers and hard men you mention. The best team in our league at the time had two very good players who had played for Liverpool school boys but the rest were very average, some I knew as kids growing up and individually they were quite poor but they played to their strengths and for each other, constantly encouraging each other and working for each other.Thats the type of team I want to see at Everton