Nothing but the best is good enough

Did both of those things really happen?

Your final point is for me crucial. I get the impression Moyes is well and truly pissed off with what Kenwright has or rather hasn't done. Is his heart still in this? Also even as a big Moyes supporter it irks me that he's in a position where he feels able to leave the club hanging on. Kenwright knows that he is unlikely to get anyone as good as Moyes at working at the top flight with limited resources. This means Moyes has the whip hand. This shouldn't be the case. Moyes went down in My estimation when he did this.......as understandable from a personal level as it is. I'd rather he said enoughs enough, gave it to Kenwright straight, money or I'm gone, and just went if he didn't get what he wanted. The fans would understand and would have respected this.

Puting all that aside the ideal scenario for me is Moyes staying but staying with a budget which lets us compete. A net spend of 10m a season? Posters,e on TW have asked if Moyes has taken us as far as he can go. Well he probably has, but the sad part is its likely to be further and more consistently so than most other managers.

He can't move the goalposts now as he has set a presendence over the years by publicly backing the Kenwright regime, the whole shenanigans has been a conspiracy IMO.

It is the managers job to build a winning team, it is not his job to keep the club afloat by selling his best players in order to pay off debts ala Arteta.

It is the job of the board to make funds available for the manager to build the team but Moyes has been complicit in the boards cloak and dagger operation for years.

He can't have it both ways.

But just as there are some managers you think could not operate without big money (Mourihno, Redknapp for example), Moyes might be tainted with the perception that he would struggle with a big budget - and you can arguably point that his bigger signings have been less successful than his bargain hunting.

We can't ignore the role the ownership plays on this. Neither Kenwright or Woods are of the personal wealth to sustain a football club as a "passion" - therefore one has to think it could be a business opportunity, hoping to sell and make a substantial profit. Neither had the personal wealth at the time to buy the club, and it has been pointed out that the clubs debt jumped by around £20m in the 12 months after True Blue Holdings took over - leading many to speculate we were a leveraged buy-out. The poor financial borrowings since just to effectively tread water on the pitch bear this out.

So what we have is a club that is now stale on and off the pitch. A manager who is frustrated with what he feels is a lack of backing from the board, and a board who, whilst they cannot be expected to pump their own wealth in if they simply don't have it, have shown a reluctance to seek alternative owners until the new stadium question is answered - they do need to increase the asset base if they're to realise the kind of extraordinary profit they are seeking.

So, Moyes will look for something elsewhere at the end of the season, and we'll be left with an aging squad with few saleable assets. Not quite as bad as he inherited, but as proven, not the top 4 team some of us thought it had the makings of.

More importantly we'll be stuck with the same intransigence in the boardroom that ultimately causes this. But at least they're true Blues. Give them a clap at the next home game...

I believe Moyes to be an average Manager and believe we should have done better this season and a few years back when we had Felliani-Arteta-Pinear midfield.

His negative tactics hold him back on the pitch, which i'm sure the top 10 clubs in the Prem noticed, cos I have. This will result in him buggering off abroad, Germany most likely as he has recently stated. He is very much in the McLaren mould of manager. Over thinking all the time.

His backslapping with the board has just added to their lethargy. Why would the board sell now when MOST fans (the clappers as I now call them) are happy where we are?
This has more to do with fans scared of a return to the Smith and Walker era than anything else.

I don't like our style of play, bar a few 20 minute spells this season, under Moyes. He has not progressed tactically from the keep it tight at the back and pinch one. Even against more inferior opposition. This has lead to a large number of draws this season where, if he had the balls, we could have won. You can argue we could have lost also but I think winning one and losing one is better than drawing two!

If he goes, let him. The board will be more disappointed than the fans as Moyes has deflected a lot of abuse away from them over the years. Protected them in fact. It is for this reason I will not be sad to see him go.

Arsenal, Chelsea, Utd, City, Liverpool, Spurs?

Not a chance and anywhere else is basically us but with less wages and not much more in transfer money.

Germany I suppose is possible (as he expressed an interest) but unless a deal has already been done, the timing would have to be spot on (ie: he resigns end of May and the manager of a top German team is sacked AND that team want Moyes)

If he's not our manager this time next year, my guess is he'll be 'taking a sabbatical' (from the word 'sabbati' - latin for 'to sit on the sofa all day and keep asking your wife for cups of tea')

By contrast, I think it is precisely because we don't fear a relegation struggle any more that this "average manager," (your words) has our support.

I wholeheartedly agree with your position on the Everton board though.

I never realised until now that I'd been taking a sabbatical!

Its always the same classic thing with those who look to bash Moyes. You seem to think we have all these top players Baines, Fellaini, Jelavic, Pienaar Mirallas who are all so good with the ball yet simulatenously think we just play rubbish football all the time. The only reason you know that any of them are half decent is because we often do play good football (like most of the last 12 months not just 20 minutes here and there) . Therefore if we're in bad form and playing badly (like what happens to every single team in the world) you only know they're not playing well because you've got something to relate them to. If Moyes really has played 11 years of hoofball then you'd have no idea how good Arteta or Pienaar could be, they'd have never got on the ball, so you could not say with any certainty that their talents had been wasted. The reality is that in some seasons we saw Arteta and Pienaar playing absolutely magical football along with Baines and Osman getting branded Arsenal lite in some places and propelling us towards the European spots, and that is ultimately the source of your frustration when it cannot match those standards. In other seasons when the playing staff hasn't been as talented the football has been worse and the league positons have slumped.

Once again thanks for disrespecting a large portion of matchday going fans by referring to them as clappers, and by generalising a massive portion of the fan base who still support Moyes by caliming that it is fear of the Walker/Smith days that drive our support of him. For some of us its because we think we actually have a half decent manager who has always done his best for us, has at times crafted teams who have played good football (contrary to the deluded myth spouted on here) but ultimately has opearted in a changing premier league environment that has not been kind to Everton thanks to some serious mismanagmenet at board level. We've enjoyed European football and some decent cup runs,and we've also had our fair share of gut wrenching failure. Some of us have judged Moyes's faults against his attribvuutes and decided that we can live with it and that we consider him still to be the best man for the job in spite of his flaws. It's not because we're some sort of flock of sheep clinging to our 7th place security scared of the dark old days

The limited players and the limited managers are "doing" their best, is that good enough? Obviously not for some people and obviously yes for a few nutters too.

Nil Satis, People's Club, Boy's pen etc etc all stupid soundbites that have nothing at all to do with how our squad performs week in week out.

He is an above average manager doing an alrightish job with a group of fairly talented players and a couple of excellent players. Nothing more nothing less. The fact that we are pissed off that we are not going to qualify for the Champions League (as if we ever really stood a chance with this squad, manager and board) is testament of how much our expectations have changed under this same "average" manager.

Ridiculous? - " but that's a ridiculous statement he is widely respected in this country and would have no problem in finding alternative employment."

Plenty of jobs going last summer, Spurs & Chelski were big ones, was he even given a moments consideration for these? Probably because of his euro performances, the positive match winning substitutions, astute tactics and dazzling formations/performances (same probably true in the prem).

You're right though there a jobs and he is employable, but only by clubs looking to survive (Reading, WHU etc). At the time he left PNE for EFC the fans there formed similar opinions about him as most EFC fans, good solid team (but not a Killer), will he ever get us up?

So is nil illegitimati corborundum but I believe this should be adhered to and the former should be aspired to.

John Moores believed it was more than a phrase; those of us who saw the 60s and 80s sides believe in its meaning and ethos, also "We are all in the gutter..."

You assert that Moyes is "employable, but only by clubs looking to survive (Reading, WHU etc).."

This is clearly preposterous, as you're implying that his 'level,' is either Championship, or in the bottom 7 of the Prem; and I don't believe that you could find a single one of his peers who would find that viewpoint credible.

Similarly, your assumption about the mindset of the Preston fans is totally flawed. Moyes steered them clear of relegation, then won the title, before leading them to a play-off final after that.

Aside from a few temporary caretaker managers, according to the available stats, David Moyes has the highest win-ratio of any Preston manager in history; ergo, one would surely expect their perception of him to be commensurate with that.

Tony it's subjective (obviously) as we all have different ideas about what we want/expect and what we believe IS possible

Your reading is..

"He is an above average manager doing an alrightish job with a group of fairly talented players and a couple of excellent players. Nothing more nothing less"

I don't see him as ABOVE average, I see him at best as alrightish (which would explain him doing an alrightish job).

I DO think we have a couple of excellent players and SOME fairly talented players but we also have some below average players and some who are truly hopeless.

For me, any pissed-off feelings stem simply from the type of football we play (or not).

I long ago 'accepted' the idea of no (more) trophies and that the chances of CL were slim to none.

But I will never accept dumb football and believe, ultimately, the football we play is down to the manager.

Of course I don't blame him if a forward misses a sitter or a pass goes astray, but I WILL if the pattern of the game we play is one that plainly isn't going to work.

This present squad, for all their faults, have PROVED they are capable of playing decent football.

Capable of keeping the ball, passing and moving and (on their day) competing with anyone.

And winning more than they lose.

So when they AREN'T doing that, Moyes is the man to blame.

If a player isn't performing (well) - drop him (if you don't, it's down to you)

If players don't follow instructions - drop them (if you don't, it's down to you)

Small squad?

Yes but not THAT small - there are others (presumably) gagging for a game, play them.

There's a lot about Moyes I like.

I like how he deals with the media (barely concealed contempt) and I admire his dedication to his work (standing on terracing mid-week to watch players rather than watching agents vids).

Plus I don't doubt his honesty.

However I think he (and we) are stifled by his personality.

I think safety is all with him.

I think a Scottish presbyterian streak (philosophically speaking) runs through him, which is a great quality if you're looking for a business partner or you need to rely on someone next to you in a trench.

But I believe this personality type actually (unconsciously) stifles creativity.

I think 'creative' people generally unnerve the Moyes-style personality.

I don't think he trusts creativity, sees it as trivial or flibbidy-gibbet (eh?)

The grammar school headmaster rather than the art college principal.

He's a percentage man and though there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, it becomes 'wrong' depending on your/my/our personal expectations.

Are these (my) expectations unrealistic or unreasonable?

Possibly (but I don't think so) but if we start to apply reason to football, would any of us support a team that plays in a league we can't win?

I HAVE to apply reason to just about every other aspect of my life (so bills get paid), but once I stop having football/Everton dreams and I start applying cold hard logic, the game (for me) is up.

'Nothing But The Best Is Good Enough' IS important to me.

NOT because (right now) I expect to see it on the field or expect to see it put into practice from BK and/or the board, but because it simply needs to be...there.

Jesus, I just had a thought - Just imagine if BK had been in charge on day one.

Everton FC - "Fuckus Yooz Lottus - Myus train setti"

`Forgotten man` Strachen eventually took the Scotland job (at about 10% of Moyes`s salary) although such is the paucity of talent up there that he will soon become disillusioned as all did before him and return to the pundits` couch, I`m sure.

Our man will be `looking for a project` which allows him free rein and those are few and far between. Unless he`s seriously pissed off with Kenwright`s nonsense (January`s farce reached a new low), I`m sure he`ll sign another deal to stay.

Perhaps we should change the motto to `Nothing but the alright`!

When you look at the names that will get thrown about for what is one of the current big jobs in English football, and compare each of their CVs to Moyes's CV, there is no comparison.

Moyes will not get in ahead of any of these managers. Just as none of them would be interested in the Everton job.

Chris @390, good comparison with the others you have named.

As a club we have always had to compete against clubs who where far more wealthier than Everton. Even in the 1995 FA Cup Final, Man Utd's side cost a lot more than Everton's. Again, Everton's side cost less than Andy Cole alone!

Moyes has certainly brought stability but he hasn't won anything and has averaged 7th since his appointment, hardly wonderful. As I have pointed out before and mentioned above, he has assisted the board in reducing expectation and going along with their lack of funds to support team building. He should publicly announce this and then leave. He would have the support of the fan base and hopefully force the sale of the club.

Since the Second World War (and that should cover most contributor's life times), Everton's average league position is 11th.

Since the war, the managers that have been "above average" are:

Catterick (6th)
Lee (10th)
Kendall Mk 1 (4th)
Harvey (6th)
Moyes (10th)

So Mr Moyes has increased the average, and climbed further up the league table.

Just saying.....(oh, and Michael K, I'm not saying that 11th is OK, alright?)

I also suspect that his days are numbered but I don't know where he would go next and I think that (of the realistic replacements) I could probably live with Roberto Martínez the most. (Quiet day at work.)

Oh and Sabbatical comes orginally from the Hebrew but I bet you knew that.

To say Moyes' likely failure to secure employment at the Bridge exemplifies some kind of 'ordinariness' in him as a manager is a complete canard.

Second, that there is no manager on planet football who could not do at the very least as good a job as Dour Davey does especially for all those MILLIONS of pounds he gets paid and would of course be offered to any replacement.

If Chelsea are choosing from the best AND brit managers aren't included surely it follows they're crap or ordinary - Moyes included.

""You assert that Moyes is "employable, but only by clubs looking to survive (Reading, WHU etc).."

This is clearly preposterous, as you're implying that his 'level,' is either Championship, or in the bottom 7 of the Prem; and I don't believe that you could find a single one of his peers who would find that viewpoint credible."

Manu, ManC, Chelski, Arsenal, Spurs (already passed him up) will not touch him (after his performances in europe (and prem for that matter)). LFC will not entertain him, that leaves what's below Reading, WHU... etc.

His peers who he has attempted 41 times to beat on their own grounds but failed. I'm not suprised they want him to stay there's good chance of points when we roll up; I don't know a singe Kopite who doesn't want him to stay (my family is sadly littered with them like cow pats on a field and they love DM)). Even his "Peers" in the none money teams are starting to warm to DM, we're predictable and a potential 1 to 3pts. If your talking about the various the tosspots in studios who dribble opinions on a Saturday, they don't pay for season tickets and watch the full 90 mins of every game - their opinions belong with the cow pats in some field somewhere.

The parting shots fired by PNE fans regardless of what he achieved was that didn't think he was a winner as far as getting to the prem was concerned, they went down like EFC did at Wembley.

"Aside from a few temporary caretaker managers ........................highest win ratio.........................."

Ask any manager who ever won anything in the top flight, he'll tell you it doesn't matter how you got there, but that you made it there and won the one that matters.

Whoopee!!! We've beaten Bolton, Oldham , (maybe Wigan), but then lose to Manu, marvellous we've improved our win ratio, but what did we win?

"Half a season, Davey", has improved our win ration no end, but our trophy cabinet is empty except for the compliments of his peers!!

Between "ordinary" and "world class" are a myriad of superlatives, such as "outstanding", "pre-emininent", and "international level" etc..

Rooney may or may not be the only "World Class" player England managers have to pick from. It does not mean everyone else in the squad, or even available for selection is just "ordinary".

"Ordinary" is a term is perhaps appropriate to professionals (note!) playing in the Championship or NPower divisions. By definition anyone in the "Premier League" is likely to be an outstanding professional footballer - especially since all the money in the game here means some clubs can virtually have their pick of anyone they fancy in the world.

So, to be among the top half of the managers in the Premiership (I think even the Moyes Bashers might struggle to argue he is one of the lesser managers in the league - something his LMA accolades belies) makes you of a standard quite out of the ordinary. Wouldn't you agree?

We have some good players, but not enough for a real top 4 push. Moyes's reluctance to use his squad players (e.g. Oviedo, Hitz, Barkley, Vellios) when players in those positions are clearly struggling for form, doesn't help at all.

He is widely admired by the media, but they don't watch every match. MotD often makes us look okay, even when we struggle, and so it is easy for lazy journalists to assume Moyes is the reason why we win, but is never to blame when we don't.

He'd get another job, but one of the "TOP" jobs? I doubt it. Even McLeish has won something! Look at how "winner" 'Arry Redknapp is struggling now. Neither of those will be offered a top job in the not too distant future.

Because in your opinion, the top five clubs in the land wouldn't contemplate employing Moyes, then somehow he's only worthy to manage the duff teams you mention..?

The Spurs board also 'passed,' on David Moyes in favour of Jaques Santini & Juande Ramos, Robert.

I'm pretty sure the West Ham & Reading fans would be ecstatic if Moyes went there, expecting him to convert them from Championship standard to the upper reaches of the Premier League. I'm also certain that doing that would be beneath him.

To criticise the impossibility of LFC hiring the Everton boss (for God's sake!) as a fault of Moyes is simply alehouse waffle.

You wheel out the go-to big guns: The 41 games (stifles yawn). Would you regard Moyes as a superior manager if he won every 'Big Four away game,' but still ended up with the same points tally & position over the last 11 years?

Presumably you'd slaughter him for dropping those 12 points against the likes of West Ham & Reading.

The fact he took a third-tier team in danger of relegation to the brink of the Premier League in just over 3 years isn't something that you can possibly use as a brickbat against him, and if you'd care to corroborate these apparent "parting shots," from Preston fans I'd love to see that.

Otherwise, you're just making shit up.

For the record, no I do not base ANY of my opinions on generic TV punditry, and I repeat, YOU can not present even a single managerial peer who would (even privately) share your jaundiced attitude to Moyes.

The fact remains Moyes gets overlooked for those clubs where you don't necessarily need to be a good coach as trophies are purchased rather than won.

Unfortunately for him those not wearing the blue tints see no trophies, a tendency to sulk with football mostly of the joyless variety and think – "4 million quid? you must be joking!"

And no it's not simply a case of semantics and hair splitting. Language is powerful. If people keep describing someone as 'ordinary', without qualifying what they mean, it denigrates the person. So I challenge the use of that word because it's used to damn Moyes (it doesn't even qualify as 'faint praise', does it?).

So, in summary, Barry, I'm forced to characterise your contribution to this thread as being wholly ordinary! Please note I've drawn back from describing it as sub-ordinal. That would have risked being offensive.

I haven't been a great Moyes backer myself in recent seasons... but looking at the big picture we will never know how good he can be unless we get a major investor on board.

Is Moyes the problem at Everton? No, like most supporters, I feel the board is the problem and, if losing David Moyes means a revolt of some kind towards Kenwright and Co, then I would take my chances and be glad if Moyes left.

Extremely worrying times lie ahead in the Summer, even if Moyes stays, I can't see us ever breaking into the top 4.

"Let me get this straight..." – Yes you really do need to get things straight!

"The Spurs board also 'passed,' on David Moyes in favour of Jaques Santini & Juande Ramos, Robert."

I meant they passed over DM for the current manager a younger less experienced Chelski reject, instead of going for the Dynamic Davey trophy winner and dazzlingly good in Europe. Thanks for mentioning Santini & Ramos, I'd forgotten about those two. Right then Moyes has been passed over 3 times by Spurs, the best young manager in the Prem working miracles was passed over by two managers who were both clueless about life in the Prem. They both got the sack and where did Spur turn to again, guess what not to Davie! Not looking good on the Spurs front for Davie eh?

Yes, Reading & WHU would and should be ecstatic if Moyes came, but the day our aspirations match theirs, I'll be wearing a Tranmere Rovers shirt!

Okay, the "Evil presence across the park" and Davie. What on Earth makes you think that a club that's won 5 Champions Leagues and 17 Championships and everything else they've won would tolerate dour Davie's type of football at their club? That's not ale talking — It's common sense. They are not up to much lately (true), but theirs fans have much higher aspirations than you do. Just imagine Moyes managing them in a derby brings off his best forward for a defender while it's 1 - 1 and EFC score a goal and their pinned in (no outlet), there would be uproar, sound familiar?

Man Utd and the rest will not touch him, Spurs the lowest of that bunch won't entertain him, can you imagine Moyes in the waiting room at Chelski waiting for an interview along side Mourinho, Guadiola (when he was available). If I was you I would embarrass yourself anymore by putting "our Davie" forward for any of these jobs.

You wheel out the go-to big guns: The 41 games (stifles yawn)...... Let's wheel out another big gun (and you can stifle another yawn), 25 attempts to win a cup (including euros) and a big fat zilcho!

"Would you regard Moyes as a superior manager if he won every 'Big Four away game, ' but still ended up with the same points tally & position over the last 11 years? Presumably you'd slaughter him for dropping those 12 points against the likes of West.Ham & Reading."

It's unreasonable to expect any club (even the big ones themselves) to win away against the big clubs all the time, a 25% success rate would have put a smile on my face (that's just a 1 out of 4 success). Moyes would have been a superior manager if he could have sustained a full season, this year he started early and died, previously he woke from the dead around Jan and then died again around April.

Our best ever season (remember 4th), the season we didn't win a game from from February, the only reason why we held onto 4th was because Liverpool were absolutely dire that season. I just wanted DM to not be "half a season Davie", and show some aggression once in a while.

"Parting Shots!" ... "Making shit up?" (Is this anger/frustration or perhaps anxiety about my arguments?) We don't know each and whether the truth is being spoken or not? But I'm certainly not going to accuse you of anything without a modicum of proof.

Okay, for what it's worth, at University in Manchester there was 2 lads from the Preston area (both match going) on my floor in halls of residence and we talked footy, their general opinion was he plays good organised football but there's just something missing.

My other source of first hand info was my mate's dad (who worked for the post office) had a friend from Preston (also worked for the post office), he came down to Liverpool for a few nights out and I met him, we talked footy and his opinion was similar (but he wanted Moyes to stay).

I've never watched PNE under DM and I can only go with the info I have.

Fantastic...Your understanding if the Preston mindset was gleaned on campus over Pot Noodles & recreational drugs. And the opinion of 'some guy from the Post Office,' who actually wanted Moyes to stay..!!

Followed by the admission that you never saw them play once.

Think I'll leave it there..

This utter crap about drugs and pot noodles (you should never be jealous of people with educations, it's uncivlised), it's all a bit I've got no answers get me out of here desperation.

There's no reply to any of my arguments Spurs (I particularly enjoyed answering that one), LFC, big guns etc.

"Not some guy" but a real fan (3 real fans from PNE (3 more than you know).

"Think I'll leave it there..." I'm not surprised your leaving there.

After such a heavy spanking I too would leave it there (oh and by the way you've been straightened out too!)

In future, don't turn up to knife-fight with a feather duster!!!

By the way there's a couple of typo's in my last post (even the educated make them from time to time).

Let's see if you can spot them (if you can't perhaps some recreational drugs may improve your IQ and help you to do so?).

My assumption was we were debating the merits of Moyes, but apparently you're 'spanking,' me and 'straightening me out.'

Tip: Don't brag about how educated you are before making such an....."uncivlised.." typo...!! (That must be one hell of a university).

For the record, I answered all your queries and simply gave you my opinion. If you want to continue the discussion without treating it like "Rocky IV," then I'd be happy to oblige.

Somehow I can't see him guiding Everton to any success if he stays even this season but it would be nice to have him sign off with a beating of Redshite. Hopefully BK has some irons in the fire at least in his mind as to who a successor will be assuming of course Moyes does leave.

On Moyes, I want him gone, but think he will stay. Due to that situation in my head, I just don't give a fuck any more. The one thing I know, whether it's at another club or with us, he should be earning less than what he is now. No other club would give him £65k a week, and he can't cry poor here come transfer time and continue to bleed £4m out of the club at the same time.

You're at it again!

You haven't been near my 497 post (except those few lines of 503 where you attempted to hide).

I'm getting that feeling about you again (it's all a bit I've got no answers get me out of here desperation).

"Spanking" and "Straightened out" in this instace are metaphorical terms (not literal, look it up), you the child, "tried it on (in 503)" and I the adult spanked you!

Tell the world and pick apart Spurs reasoning for stepping over Moyes 3 times and explain why the LFC and CFC etc all should want Moyes in your eyes? And answer the other questions too.

Come on Rocky(I'm up for it) square up to me with a methodical and clear blow for blow repost to my post 497 and defeat all points with dialect reasoning.

You Said: "My assumption was we were debating the merits of Moyes"

I'd love you to join the debate, though I expect more crap like 503.

Short answer: Haven't a clue and couldn't give a shit. How about I suggest they simply didn't fancy him? Does that count as a 'win,' for you?

Could they have considered him..? Maybe, maybe not; Did they open private back-channels & inquire, only to learn he didn't want to leave - possibly or more likely, probably not. Who cares?! The Spurs board may not rate him. Again, so what?

I can honestly state that Levy's opinion on Moyes has never crossed my mind, ever. This doesn't prove that he's a bad manager!!

Also, West Ham & Reading (the two clubs YOU claim Moyes would be suitable for) have also (repeatedly) 'passed,' on approaching him. By your own implication, THEY don't rate him either! See the nonsense of it.....??

You asked why I think LFC will never approach David Moyes. Because he's been managing fuckin' EVERTON for eleven years!!!

(Fully anticipating a "you're getting whipped, sonny-Jim, I went to University, and my day's bigger than yours," type response).

It's not like they've won those trophies with their dazzling Barcelona like School of Science displays is it. More like alehouse footy and defence defence defence.

Moyes conservative approach would be an ideal fit for them except as Kevin points out, they are not going to consider a former Everton manager and he would not consider going to them.

Okay Ding Dong (it's Rocky V), he who fully anticipates the future and has the answers, try to learn something from the following concise definition.

Debates are based on assertions, an individual (or party) will make an assertion, this will then be countered by another assertion/argument that logically negates the first.

It's an important concept and you need to understand and agree with it before reading on!

SPURS
My assertion was that Moyes would not be employable by Spurs and I put my case forward.

You said:

"Let me get this straight...Because in your opinion, the top five clubs in the land wouldn't contemplate employing Moyes, then somehow he's only worthy to manage the duff teams you mention..?"

The important phrase here (and it's your counter assertion) from your qoute, is: "Because in your opinion".

"Because in your opnion" is directly mutable to: "I don't agree, that's not my opinion". (For your info, "Mutable" in this instance means "translates to").

Therefore if your contention is that that we are debating you now must state your case for spurs employing Moyes (see again the definition of debating above). This isn't a trick of semaphore, the phrase "Because in your opinion" is a direct assertion (your assertion! back it up!) .

Instead of stating your case, you said:
"Short answer: Haven't a clue and couldn't give a shit."

So you're making assertions you haven't go a clue about? Are you really that clueless (uninformed)? I can only suggest you engage your brain before you talk.

Are you keeping up?

You said: "Wow. You're now asking me to theoretically imagine why Spurs 'passed on Moyes.'? " Guess who's doing the WOWING now?

WEST HAM & READING
"Also, West Ham & Reading (the two clubs YOU claim Moyes would be suitable for) have also (repeatedly) 'passed,' on approaching him. By your own implication, THEY don't rate him either! See the nonsense of it.....?? "

I'm not sure what your getting at in the above statement, but I'll try.

It's my personal opinion if DM goes these are the kind of clubs he will find his best chance of gaining employment at. Whether they want to employ him or not is their business and I'm not privy to it. I can't see what's nonesense about that?

I said: "You're right though there a jobs and he is employable, but only by clubs looking to survive (Reading, WHU etc)".

Come on you need to get your facts straight, I haven't said WHU and Reading are the only clubs (specifically), I said "etc". There's probably about 10 clubs down there he may want to try his luck at (Reading & WHU are just two of them).

LIVERPOOL FC
You said: "You asked why I think LFC will never approach David Moyes. Because he's been managing fuckin' EVERTON for eleven years!!!"

Many congratulations, on being clever enough to state the obvious!!!

If you couldn't see within the debate that the length of DMs tenure was implicit within and accepted, you must have issues understanding anything beyond that which is explicitly expressed.

Have a look at Eric Myles @ 558 below, you'll notice he hasn't mentioned the length of DMs stay, but has stated a purely well expressed counter assertion that is a football argument only.

TO FINISH
Well then Rocky, I have to admit I'd rather not share the ring with you any longer, my knuckles are red raw and painful. You have a hard and dense head and just keep coming back for more, If we keep going on like this some kind soul will have to throw in the towel on your behalf.

Have you at least grasped the premise of assertion and counter assertion? (should I expect 503 allover again?)

As I stated in my previous post, this is MY opinion.

I believe Moyes to be an average manager because I have seen Everton win leagues and cups. To do that you have to have it in your make-up as a manager. I don't believe Moyes has it.

I believe Kenwright has strangled the life out of the club by staying to long, which by the way includes his stint WITH Johnson.

I believe we have had good players over the last ten years that Moyes has stifled due to his style of play, mainly forwards. I believe Moyes is good at finding Championship players and making the good Premier Leagye players. When we finished fourth, our team was full of these type of players.

Your arguments I have heard before and will again but for every one of them there is a counter-point to be made.

Let us resume our discussion in May when we can add some facts from this season.

I have to agree with about their last two finals against ACM, and their general play lately, they haven't exactly played total football.

However when they won the bulk of their trophies 70's and early 80's they were pretty special, I can't take that away from them.

Moyes for LFC based on him and the type of football he plays (leaving out the fact (for arguments sake) he's been with us).
Just imagine Moyes managing them in a derby brings off his best forward for a defender while it's 1 - 1, because he thinks we look dangerous and EFC score a goal and then they're pinned in (no outlet) and get beat, there would be uproar, sound familiar?

They would have him out in minutes, not 11 years.

I believe their expectations are still greater than ours, they have always had an attacking mentality and expected their managers to have one.

Whereas Davie and Billy have done a superb job of convincing our fans that we can't win anything and don't expect anything. Just sit there and eat your bowl of gruel (is their attitude).

Like you said in your previous post, we are not privy for information regarding the thoughts of reading etc this would also apply to Spurs!! How can you say Spurs by-passed him? Can you say that for sure? Course you can't – it's just your opinion. Wasn't Moyes linked with an up-and-coming Villa team that was spending millions a few years back? What does that mean to your argument?

Simple facts are these: Moyes has done a decent job on a decent budget... we play either great football, average football to pure shocking football. Would most Everton fans love to see Moyes with a mega war-chest to see what he could really do? Yes. Sadly it will neverhappen and he will go at the end of the season, and we will all find out either just how good or how shite he was.

I think we were having two different arguments here.

Mine was solely in opposition to your contention that Moyes would end up at Reading or West Ham. I also thought your verdict on the Preston mindset was flawed, and explained why.

That's all it was! (Check my original post).

You wanted to expand this to discuss his unsuitability for any of the top jobs. At no point did I challenge this belief. You wanted to fixate on a theme I wasn't contesting.

BEING PASSED OVER SPURS AND VILLA
Right then, let's have a look at your logic and compare it to mine...........

You said: "Like you said in your previous post we are not privy for information reguarding the thoughts of reading etc, this would also apply to Spurs"

True enough, we usually only find out when the deals done!

Then you said: "How can you say spurs by-passed him? Can you say that for sure? Course you cant its just your opinion."

There are two scenarios:
Ok, try to follow (the simple) logic of this:

(1) If Spurs (the board and chairman, etc) did consider him, but didn't employ him, then he's been passed over. Yes, you agree with that?

(2) If they didn't consider him (I repeat DID NOT), Moyes a genius who stabilised EFC and challenged the big boys (beating them many times on their own grounds), led us into europe conquering all (performances like the ones against Villa Real and Steau Bucharest would have no doubt have impressed them), a man renowned for his attacking flair who would rather gamble on winning a game than accepting a draw. A manager with all these good things going for him!

Here's the interesting bit:

If he wasn't considered, but looked at with such contempt after demonstating all the above attributes of winning manager, if they (the board) agreed at the start of their meeting to not even waste their time considering him and his record, then that is even WORSE than being passed over! It's a double negative, "We won't consider you or employ you."

You said: "Wasn't Moyes linked with an up and coming Villa team that was spending millions a few years back? What does that mean to your argument?"
Linked with Villa? Did he move there? Did he get the job? The end result looks the same as the Spurs one to me.

The upshot is and you will have to negate my logic above to prove your case, at multiple times (3 of them) the managers job was available at Spurs (a club with more money than us and regarded by many experts as going places we may not?), and David Moyes this countries best young manager did not move there (or was not offered the job, we probably can safely assume). He was therefore passed over.

And I think most on this site would agree if he was offered the job, he'd be off like a stabbed rat. On the BBC Euro championship show with Gary Lineker when asked about the vacant Spurs job, I didn't hear him say "I'm happy at Everton, I have a job to do and I'm staying."

THE FOOTBALL WE PLAY

"Simple facts are these...." (as stated by the simple?)
Oh my! You're dealing in absolutes and banging your fists on the table?

You said: "we play either great football-average football to pure shocking football..."
Don't all clubs do the above at some point in any season???? You're on good form here aren't you? That's a very well thought out statement! You must have gone through some seriously deep thinking before astounding Toffeeweb and world with that one.

You said: "would most Everton fans love to see Moyes with a mega warchest to see what he could really do? Yes."
You should read through the posts on TW and you might find there's plenty beginning to doubt your opinion, I know a few of his former die hards that are of the opposite opinion.

You said: "Sadly it will never and he will go at the end of the season, and we will all find out either just how good or how shite he was."
If he's as good as you think he is, one of those big boys will come snap him up and give him that "mega warchest" won't they?

EDUCATION, MORTALS AND SPOUTING SHITE

I am absolutely mortal just like you and probably just as stupid as the next man when all is said and done.

I just tend to think about what I say before I say it.

Spouting shite. really?
I've been using a long stick to take apart and have a look at what you've dribbled on TW, I didn't want to get a certain unwanted substance on my hands!

If you have read (but I think not absorbed or understood) what was said in the previous posts, I suspect you're putting yourself forward as Rocky Mk 2, if so I think one of us is going to have mucho fun!

You know your football and I can't argue with your thoughts on Yeates and Smith (it truly was a manly game back then).

But It's my opinion they didn't just hack their way to (the first 4) Champions leagues and the leagues they won, they could score goals.

If they were all brutality they would have just been another Wimbledon (Vinny and Co).

He's only been there with for just over half a season and I think they'll give him all of next season before coming to any decisions about him, It a while for a manager to "Groove" a team for how he wants them to play.

We've had DM a for ll years now and at the start of the season there was quite a few blues saying this is his best squad so far (after ll years), god help us!

As for Beneathus, it's a strange one, that lot across the park do have fond memories of Instanbul (I know some of my relatives and mates who went do), although I believe you would get a mixed reception if you asked the ones I know to take him back. A few of them before they sacked him were beginning to suspect he was getting his tactics from the "David Moyes Bumper Book Of How To Play Football" and they called time on him.

I think the Beneathus situation backs up what I said, they're very attack minded as fans and would quickly grow tired of the "Moyes Style".

Beneathus won a Champions League, Super Cup, FA Cup and managed to get them to another Champions League final and still got the sack. If moyes did that for us, Kenwright would give him a magic carpet from his theatre prop room to come to work on, petition the Pope to have him beatified and give him a platinum diamond encrusted dugout chair (and I think many of our fans would give him the job for life, regardless of what he did afterwards).

I just goes to show how high their expectations are and how ours have dipped over recent times.