Anticipating Everton’s Next Move

Incredible there was absolutely no mention of any issues raised on Talksport in the Echo today, and comments are being deleted as fast as people are posting.

There does seem to some appetite for change though, the club's mouthpiece Bkipper, seem to have suddenly decided on a new editorial policy of not ignoring the fucking obvious.

Personally, I'd had it with Moyes about five years ago when his lack of tactical versatility and timing of substitutions was hitting home. By the way he has conducted himself over the years he has shielded the Board from criticism by the fans, and is never slow to tell everyone that he has the greatest of Chairmen.

Some fan's perhaps rightfully say that Moyes' has had to manage our club with a small squad. I would ask why the squad is so small, when Moyes' has managed the club for 11 years - in control of all playing matters, and yet there have no players who have come through from the youth ranks, who have made it to the first team. Equally, very few all all the young players who were signed for the future have made in into the first team squad. It can be said that Moyes' must consider that they're not good enough - but again, I would say that that is his fault and responsibility. If they aren't/weren't good enough, move them out.

If Moyes' leaves tomorrow, he will leave our club with an ageing squad of players - not a squad built for the future. Just look at Howard, Hibbert, Neville, Osman, Pienaar, Distan, Jagielka,Heitinga and Hitzelberger. None of the young players in the background have been given the first team experience to slot in, and that has to reflect on Moyes. The Buck must stop with him regarding all playing matters. He has signed them, given them contracts, selects them, tells them how to play in a positional sense, selects them over and over - and has even extended some of their contracts (eg) Anichebe, and Neville.

For me, he has run his course, and no encouragement must be offered to him to stay - the club is not Moyes, or the Board, or any of the players. The club and the fans will be here long after they are all gone. Personalities don't matter - only the club. We have been to staid for too long. The first step towards progress is to get rid of Moyes.

We constantly pick on Moyes and his shortcomings. These are only so obvious because we simply have not bought the players to make the difference. If we were 2 or 3 up against sides on a regular basis (which is the privilege you get from being able to splash the cash) nobody would care when he makes his substitutions.

I really hope that there is no hatchet job on someone who has made the last decade rather more competitive than I could have hoped for at the turn of the century. There have been some lows but also a lot of highs like the amazing 2002/03 season when, but for exhaustion, we might have reached Europe against the odds. 2004/05 was great as were 2006-2009.

He is my favourite Everton manager. I always have a soft spot for Royle because he made 1995 magical but he got found out tactically very quickly. Kendall...the greatness was tarnished somewhere along the way. Walker and Smith? No. All of the aforementioned managers made us a relegation battling side. Moyes took us from that into a mid table side and then the best of the rest with cup ambitions. For me the summer of 2009 was when it all went wrong. We were a club on the up. We had just been the losing FA Cup finalists, finished 5th and had a European place. The lack of investment combined with the Lescott saga did for us and we have been struggling to keep up ever since.

For me he is gone now but I will stop bothering to tune in if the board have the temerity to stab him in the back given the woeful job they've done of late.

Green and them remain.

If he insists on acting as though bigger than the club, I really have no sympathy if he gets his arse bitten – lay with dogs you get fleas.

It was/is in his hands to sort it but it just looks another challenge he's cocked up, entirely his own fault.

Well here we are 11 years down the line and we not only have a FAILED youth policy that has produced virtually nothing that was not there when he arrived and we have an 'aging squad' just like he inherited and now we don't even own our own training facilities that we spent millions refurbishing.

As they say 'You couldn't make it up".

"what happened regarding Moyes asking the Board for Funds from the forthcoming Sky deal?” - How many players did we buy in the last window?

“I can't say that I've heard that piece about Warren Bradley and the Everton Director either - which Director was it?" - This story came out a few years ago as to why the AGMs were abolished, because the board were being shown up to be liars, and also why they don’t want any BU members at the Shareholders Executive, they just want fans that will believe the lies and not ask the important questions.

John Flaherty #601 – “John” tremendous first post, well written, perhaps, one could even venture, almost professionally written, concise and to the point; perhaps you should consider a career in the media with talent like that, where have you been hiding for the five years since you had enough of Moyes?

I suppose it’s testimony to Barry’s writing skills that his piece spurred you into writing your response and, I’m hazarding a guess here, registering with TW for the very first time? Well done you.

Whilst the OP describes, with some insight in my opinion, the possible scenarios which would be used to vilify and demonise Moyes, in an attempt to deflect any blame whatsoever away from the chairman and the board for the shambles, that should be the latest shambles of course, the club finds itself in, you spell it out succinctly and leave no possible room for error, it’s all Moyes’ fault.

Barry prophetically describes one such scenario in which an attempt will be made to deflect the blame for the painfully small squad away from the chairman and by implication, the chairman’s handling of the atrocious commercial performance that blights our club, and lay it firmly at the feet of Moyes. Interestingly you say, “Some fan's perhaps rightfully say that Moyes' has had to manage our club with a small squad. I would ask why the squad is so small, when Moyes' has managed the club for 11 years - in control of all playing matters….” Hmmm coincidence? Maybe, just like it’s a coincidence that the local paper ignores a radio show on which an official from Everton answering questions refuses to be named and Evertonians rant for over two hours. If you didn’t register your account yesterday so that you could specifically challenge what Barry has written I’ll wear a Liverpool shirt at the City game, I know where to go to ask for one.

Blame Moyes for his tactics and his style of play all day long as far as I’m concerned, that’s football; but don’t attempt to vilify a man who, in a time of record turnover and an explosion of potential football related commercial opportunities, has been given the grand total of £3.2m as an average budget as confirmed in the clubs cashflow analysis for the years he’s been in control and who spelt out to anybody who would listen why he needed supporting in the recent January window. He’s played the game too long when perhaps he should have said how it really is.

As Barry said, this is a different league now “John”

Finally, to enlighten anyone that wasn’t around, including those who were having enough of Moyes because it was almost five years ago, you can read who the director was who was having the mystery meetings with the council here http://bit.ly/15LMQsj and I can confirm that the director in question did actually mutter something in response to Bradley’s first question, it was something about Keith Wyness; because you see nothing is ever their fault, it’s the council, it’s the secretary of state, it’s the agents, it’s the blue union; it’s everyone but those who are responsible, those who are in charge; they are in charge aren’t they?

All it needs is just one respected journalist to run with it, even if it means swimming against the tide. But you'd always have the ostriches who refuse to believe that a self-appointed Biggest Evertonian could actually be a profiteering schemer.

"I really like David. I rate him very highly as a manager and just as much as a person. He never shirks a question: he's straightforward and honest to the core.

Perhaps that's why I shy away from asking anything that might embarrass him.

Though I've felt for quite a while that he and Everton might be going separate ways – what more can he do there? – I've never put him on the spot.

Instead, when we met up, I shook his hand and said it's terrific the way Everton are sitting high up in the Premier League.

"Yes Alan," he replied. "But we're playing right to our limit."

I thought it a somewhat downbeat assessment of their position, but maybe David had a premonition of what was to happen on Saturday at Goodison Park."

It is painfully obvious that Moyes has had players carrying injuries and running out of gas since December.

For those who criticize the youth policy name any youngster who has done better since leaving apart from Rooney.

If you are given a budget to shop at Aldi you cant get the same quality as those shopping at Harrods.

Thank you for your compliment – I think it was!

For clarification, I am not nor have ever been a journalist, have no connection with Everton Football Club, and my contribution yesterday in response to Barry's excellent piece was not my first. I did think however, as I had already stated, that Barry's article was very interesting – that I could not disagree with anything that he said, and in no way do I feel that the club has been run well at Board level. I hope that clarifies my views in that direction, and would not wish to engage in a Monty Python type Fish Face Slapping dance with you – even though I think that it is I who holds the large fish – and you the Sardines!!

You are correct that Moyes has not had a lot of cash to spend, season on season, when compared to the top five or six – who could disagree – that was never an issue. However, Moyes has had total control of all playing matters in the 11 years he has managed our club – and you'll agree that that would include which players should be bought (when funds were available), sold, retained, who should have their contracts renewed, and the salaries that should be paid in order to keep certain important players. In other words, he has had control of about, if I'm right, perhaps 80% of the turnover of the club – if recent breakdowns of the club finances are correct – although you will have the precise detail at your fingertips. Moyes wouldn't have had it any other way.

Moyes has always had control of all the playing and coaching staff, and could if he wished have rotated the players available to him to generate funds for newer, younger, faster, more energetic, more skillful players. Instead he has chosen to keep hold of his slow, weak, lethargic and limited skilled existing staff, to the detriment of the club. A classic case would have been to sell Heitinga and/or Anichebe to generate funds last close season. He chose not to. His management of our club and its assets (on the playing side of course) has, in my view been poor.

Since I formed my opinion five years ago that he shouldn't have been allowed to continue, I have unfortunately been proved correct time after time. He just does not know how to win a game that must be won – the evidence is there on the record books, and whilst Kenwright deserves all the flack directed at him, no fan should hide behind Moyes record.

Just in case I have not already made my view clear, as a fan who has supported our great club since 1957, Everton need a change of manager without delay. We need to progress, and standing still is going backwards. Moyes stands between the fans and the Board as a Firewall – one who is by far too we'll paid!

Next season even the bottom club in the premiership will receive £60 million which is more than City got last year for winning the Premiership. We have been desperate for someone with deep pockets to come in and move the club forward, but maybe for this to happen we need to cut our overheads dramatically. Maybe an option might be to buy Finch Farm, and reduce our debt considerably. Now the hard decision would be to tell the manager whoever it is that we will be selling Fellaini and Baines and the money we received would be going to pay down the debt. I realize this would not be a popular thing to do, but it would make us more appealing for a takeover.

Now I know this isn't what fans want to hear they want to hear who we are buying not who we are selling, but if we do what we normally do which is pay a little to the banks sell a player to finance a few cheap buys then the club will be standing still. So yes I think this is a crucial time for Everton.

There won't be many with numbers higher than Everton.

Also, UK players are in the minority. Its easier to buy a finished article from abroad than expect UK kids to come through.

Whatever you think of Everton's youth set up its not poor compared to our rivals.

People have been hand wringing about the board for years it's become the chattering class topic of choice over the after dinner mints.

Start to win and no-one is arsed, fanny around the relegation area and suddenly the "clapping" stops and people get angry - it's that stark. As it stands this middling mediocrity without action is what's killing the club it's all very nice having umpteen forums talking about the price if fish but it's getting nowhere.

The damn buster is breaking the Moyes/Kenwright duopoly without that first step we're going round in circles whinging.

There is also Lallana and others who we've forgot about. Plus have the teams i've mentioned have spents years out of the top flight and would have had more players who have had the odd game in the prem if they had been there at the time. Even though they have spent years out of the top flight I bet the likes of Leeds, West Ham and Soton have produced a lot more regular prem players than we have.

Really the only team we can compare our youth system to is Liverpool cos we are after the same pool (no pun intented) of players and they have produced far more top quality players than us in the prem years.

Rodwell and Barkley (even though fans are wanting him fasttracked) have both been developed by our academy.

The problem as Lambert has found is that the Premiership is light years away from the academy so you cant just fill a team with youth players you have to manage their introduction so as not to disrupt the team on the one hand and not to destroy the kids confidence on the other.

Contrary to popular opinion Ferguson did not develop the youths, he poached them from other clubs.

I'm not arguing that. Nick asked who produces more players than us. Without even thinking them clubs came into my head. If someone had the time to check which club produces the most prem players who have played more than 30 games then i'd be surprised if Everton were near the top.

It can't be from 11 years a go cos any kid that got a game at the start of his reign wouldn't have been coached under Moyes as a kid.

So how long does it take after a manager takes over before it's just his influence on the way the youth set up operates?

I don't know when that cut off point under Moyes would have been but I think its fair to say that any kid that has come through to the first team in the last 5 years would be down to Moyes.

The clubs that do well with youth policy are West Ham consistently and Southampton recently.

It used to be Crewe under Dario Grady but that's history now.

The real secret seems to be a good scouting network because the only top graduates from academies have natural talent inbread. Coaching makes average players better but the real cream always comes to the top no matter which academy is coaching them.

The problem at Everton is money because the big clubs can afford to buy and loan out the top talent to develop at other clubs expense (not just financial expense).

Your wrong about Soton, they have been producing players for donkeys years. Like I said earlier, there will be plenty of players i've forgotten about but Shearer, Le Tiss, Dodds, Bridge, Le Saux all started in the prem at Soton and i'm sure our own Barry Horne and the shites Ruddock started out there as well.

A few days have now passed and I feel the need for a calm and measured response to the situation at Everton in the aftermath of Saturday's debacle. Many heated words have been exchanged and much vitriol has been directed at certain individuals.

In the cold light of day we must be as honest as possible and make only constructive comment: Neville, Osman and Jelavic are shit and I'm not paying money to see them again. I don't care any more about Moyes... I just don't care.

[This is so much more temperate than anything I had to say on Saturday.]

Who knows then, maybe its a mixture of the two. One thing is for sure, there's more than a couple of clubs who produce more players than us and the standard that the shite bring through is far superior to ours.

In my view, that doesn't make theirs a successful academy — it makes them very good poachers of young talent...... poachers with money, I might add.

"John Flaherty", please respond if you exist.

Whenever a team has a bad run of results, the fans always cry "Play the kids," and since I have been watching football I have only seen one bunch of kids come into a side and be successful. That was Man Utd with the Busbie Babes and more recently under Ferguson. As Hansen says, usually you win nothing playing a bunch of kids, and (apart from these two instances) he is right.

Wenger is another who is always held up as a manager who brings young kids into the team yet, until recently with Wilshere, his only success in bringing a kid through from the academy into regular first team football was Ashley Cole.

Heitinga was our Playerof the Season last season, why would you want to sell our best player?

I do indeed exist, and have already responded to Colin, but it has yet to be displayed (Editor???).

I have no professional status - Journalist, link with Everton Football Club or otherwise - just a fan since 1957 who, whilst having respect for what Moyes achieved up to five years ago, wishes that he would leave our club poste haste, as for the last five years we have been treading water. You are paranoid! Do the views expressed by myself not suit your taste - that's a pity!!! They are held by numerous others, as evidenced by all the correspondence to Toffeeweb since (and before) last Saturday

Moyes, in terms of communicating with fans, is the worst in the Premiership for NOT keeping us informed of anything happening within the club. Perhaps you could offer me his latest communique since Saturday's farce - or do I have read it after his Friday afternoon Press Conference?

I can only assume now that you accept that I do in fact exist?

But that's a pity as I think Colin called this horribly wrong. How he could twist what I thought was a pretty genuine first post into the start of the Club's public dissing of one David Moyes... well, that surprised me. Although I've been wrong ion these matters before, so I won't stick my head up too far above the parapet!

ps: If you have posted before, you must have used different registration details.

The problem at Everton is we seem to have a crop of youth players with potential but the manager does not seem willing to give them an opportunity to gain experience at a higher level.

I was born 43 years ago (today to be precise and I'm celebrating drinking coffee and reading this thread) but I can't remember when Everton entered my conscience but know I've always supported them, for how long - matters not one jot. Nor does it make my view any better than anyone else's.

The point is that us old timers have been through more highs and lows than most but nothing like the feeling of being cheated by Bill Kenwright.

As record income streams into the premiership he has made us the paupers by selling off every asset and creating record debt.

If only John Moores could come back to life.

He would have Kenwright out of the boarroom in a day.

"The fact that he asked for that tells you he was staying, he was forward planning and preparing."

Umm, no. The fact Moyes was asking for money tells us that he wanted to see if he could strengthen the team during the last few months of his contract to give him the best chance of winning a trophy. Its a no-brainer for him.

If the club had actually spent £10M+ on players and we'd still missed out, Moyes may very well still have walked. If we get a new manager in a few months time, I'm sure they'd like a bit of cash to spend. Allowing Moyes to spend what we do get on players the new manager may not rate would be incredibly stupid.

Personally I'd have made any cash advance to buying players Moyes wants absolutely 100% conditional on Moyes signing a new long term contract. None of this "lets see whether we win a trophy or do well in the league" bullshit. You want to spend the clubs money, you bloody well commit your future to the club too!

Not that I want him to stay, or that I think the board do a good job. But what you wrote is pure speculation, and in my opinion, wrong.

What I can't understand is why so many are excitedly debating the appointment of a new manager when we know he would have to operate under the same crap conditions (leaving aside BK's 5 pieces of silver) that Moyes has had to. Does any one seriously think that a new manager under the current board will perform any better than Moyes has done.

Kenwright and Elstone , not for the first time, conspired to completely wreck any opportunity offered by the January transfer window! Whether this happened by design or (as is more likely) gross inefficiency we may never know! Elstone sounded like any one of our third rate politicians when explaining why the Fer deal had to be aborted. His words were to the effect that we (the board) can't allow anything to happen (namely signing a 'technically' injured player) that would not be in the best interests of EFC.

And in the manner of a politician he believes that with bluff and bluster no one will ask the blindingly obvious question – which of course most Evertonians did – why didn't you just start the fucking process earlier as any remotely efficient organisation would have done? For my money this guy would be first out the door!

Personally I don't want Moyes to go. I've seen too many average managers at this an other clubs to be getting excited at the thought of someone new working under the same conditions that Moyes operates under. At this moment in time there are 13 managers in the Premier League not doing as well as Moyes!

Having said that I accept that when in the past we have been called upon to rise to the occasion he and the team have memorably fallen short. Twice in recent cup history to name the two most heartbreaking! So I accept why so many others think differently. But I don't agree with talk of a double cross. As Barry alludes to in his article DM was clearly planning for the future when he and a number of key players went (unusually) public to express a hope that fresh blood would arrive in January. It was the nearest Moyes has ever got to climbing out of bed with BK. His position now is merely a natural progression from being massively let down at what may well have been one of the key moments in the club's history.

In my view he's actually saying, in a not too unbreakable code, that, despite the fact you (the board) kicked me in the teeth in January, if I'm proved wrong and the team didn't need the lift of two or maybe three players then I'll stay. Being proved wrong would entail finishing in a European place and/or a Cup! Well we now know one isn't happening and the other is looking extremely unlikely. For my money Moyes is almost certainly on his bike at the season end!

Now at the risk of upsetting all those who despise Moyes, including the constantly moaning prick who sits behind me in Lower Bullens, I'm going to join the ranks of the vilified and say "be careful what you wish for"! Needless to say a takeover by someone with a few bob would negate this last comments!!

John I do happen to agree with your Anti Moyes stance but for me the board and Moyes must all be removed for us ever to move on. Would love to hear your views on Kenwright?

in the Monty Python face slapping with fish scenario.Would it help if I brought a red herring?