Big Pay Rise for Moyes, Please!

It's investment in players needing the increase.

Now wait for the barrage of 'but he plays Naismith', 'he ruins strikers', 'he's a dour davey', 'he's not tactical, like what Pep is', 'he should be more like Mike Basset', 'we should sack him and get Owen Coyle', 'blue Billy boy bullshit blah-be-blah'.

If there is a line between MOBs and IMWTs then I'm probably slightly in the IMWT section... but even I can see that he has strengths and weaknesses.

Key strength is building a team on a budget. In that regard he's streets ahead of most in the league.

Key weakness is what he does with that team. He's built some crackers in his time but never quite let's them off the leash.

He's a very good value for money manager. I'm just not sure he's anything more than that.

Moyes is great, but does not need a pay rise, what he needs funds to enter the transfer market. .

From a business and financial point of view very few people would argue that DM has done a very good job, at least he'll be able to find work outside of football should he so wish. But football is part of the entertainment industry and as there are a limited number of trophies the least we could hope for is an entertaining brand of football.

Not as some would argue a Blackpool or Hull type gung-ho approach but a style which embraces the need for defensive solidity and an attack that is focused upon scoring goals by whatever method best suits the players available. For too long DM has been over-cautious and expects his forward thinking players to produce tackles and running to defend rather than allowing them to help out when they can and focus their attention on creating chances.

He has to change his methods if he wants to be successful as a Football Manager he has to realise that although it is a team game each part of the team is a specialist unit and if one of them units is over-burdened by duties they are either not very good at or incapable of then it undermines the team as a whole.

When I have been to watch a film, my first thoughts are was it good, was it entertaining, did I enjoy it. At no point do I find myself thinking if it failed on any of those criteria that it may have been made by a director who was working for a studio lacking money and therefore compared to what he could have made with a bigger budget it was admirable, it was either a good film or a bad film.

He seriously needs to lose some dead wood: Neville, Naismith, Osman, Heitinga, Anichebe and realise the assets that will be heading out of the door anyway (Baines, Fellaini).

£30 mill for the assets, £10 mill for the dead wood, £10 mill to the bank and £30 mil to reinvest.

Okay, starting again in not always the best policy but £30 mill could bring in 5 good players and then he has at least 3 youngsters knocking at the door.

Remarkably neighbouring threads question our expectations and why we didn't get 4th.

Personally I'm looking forward to the post on crop circles and aliens that surely must follow.

Though I do not doubt Moyes has his flaws and makes mistakes aplenty I find the incessant criticism he gets from some regulars on here difficult to understand in the context of this clear over achievement. I suppose this only takes his league form into consideration and it is his cup performances that upsets many but even so some of the bile he receives is misplaced. I suppose some Man u fans moan about Fergie when they lose. That's just football fans, fickle as you like.

Could you do a similar exercise showing how the financial well-being of the club has been enhanced under Kenwright's tenure? Must be impressive after well over a decade of 'progress'.

I would have rid of both of them, but for quite seperate reasons. Moyes does deserve credit for what he has done at Everton, whereas the Board should be dumped in the Mersey!

We have received a combined total of £51m for Rooney & Lescott, and Moyes did have that much to re-invest, but net spend will show we didn't spend anything.

Wenger has won League titles with a negative net spend, and many Arsenal fans want him gone.

There is no denying Moyes gives excellent value for money if you want to look purely at his League placings, but the trophy cabinet is bare, and the football has been dire on occasions. His defensive mindset gives him an advantage over many of his peers, he goes out not to lose first and foremost (his words)

His 40 odd game losing streak at the usual suspects, and no trophy tells a different story. A good, pragmatic manager, but he is still here, when many 'bigger' positions have been filled. Doesn't that tell us all we need to know?

Take out the Joe Royle 6th place (and still not good enough for Europe) and in the first 10 years of the premiership, we averaged 15th and highest place of 13th.

Take out the abberation of 2003/04, David Moyes' 10 years will average 6.5 and the lowest of 11th.

If this season had come after any of the first 10 of the premiership there would not be one person (probably) calling for him to go but heaping superlatives on him for far better football being played and much improved results.

David Moyes is now compared with the much improved team that we now watch and therefore failure to achieve what would only have been fantasy 10 years ago, is now considered failure and the reason for wanting to be rid.

A significant number of us are of the opinion that this improvement in the last 10 years is due to David Moyes and his loss will likely lead to our return to the dark days of the 90s. We do not have the spending power to buy a team of worldbeaters which can compensate for lack of managerial expertise, what we have is a team of exceptionally good players (bought by David Moyes) who he has built into a successful team.

I suppose it hangs on how you define "successful"...

It is time people stopped looking at Everton in isolation and start taking into account how we stand in relation to the clubs around us.

Finally from 1946 to 1992, a period encompassing the glory years that make up our proud history we averaged 50 points per season, an average only good enough for 11th. How many times has Moyes finished lower than 11th?

I say this as a 34-year-old Everton fan who first went to the match in 1984 october I think when we beat Man Utd 5-0 at home. I was maybe a little young to appreciate the mid eighties. My fear is when Moyes goes we fall away and look back on the 2006-2013 as the modern good years.

I agree with everything you have said.

Kevin Tulley

You say many bigger positions have been filled and he is still here, well 2 positions are Arsenal and Man Utd whose managers were at their clubs before Moyes joined Everton. So that's 2 of the bigger positions ruled out I don't think Chelsea have appointed a British manager under Abromovich, so who are the other biggest jobs he has missed out on.

Wouldn't Chelsea consider him if was as good as some say? There have been plenty of big jobs abroad, Italy, France, Germany — surely he is known in these countries?

Don't get me wrong, I would rather have Moyes over the likes of Mark Hughes, Dave Jones and even Martinez, but he is not a great by any stretch of the imagination — too defensive.

If one accepts this, then is it not fair enough to expect more? Could not more have been got from this good squad? With a little luck we could still be challenging for a champion's league place so how does the money argument sit with that? David Moyes does not deserve a pay rise and it is not bonkers to ask whether a different coach could have achieved more with this squad.

I am also a 34 year old Evertonian and I could not disagree with you more. 20 years from now when when Moyes is finally gone please god and we look back at his tenure as manager it will be looked back on as the lost years where nothing of note happened.

More generally, our biggest asset is Moyes. His ability to turn a profit on players is astonishing and is up there with the best of them. If our club were to try to renegotiate the terms on a loan or try to convince one of the moneyed tight arses on the board into investing capital into a business they own then the greatest argument they could have is Moyes's track record on player acquisitions.

Once that is accepted (it's indisputable!) then the danger that Moyes might leave would mean that a large degree of uncertainty regarding transfer policy and club revenue would get right in the face of these stakeholders. "I will do the best for Everton football club", that's a direct quote. I think he IS doing the best for the club but there are some of us who just don't get it.

Moyes has his strengths but these can be argued just as strongly as his weaknesses. The current breed of sub 40-year-old fan knows no better than what they have experienced which is pretty much sod all. There are fans who genuinely think Sky was the only form of football that has ever existed.

Clubs like Man City and Chelsea landed monied owners but had pretty much fuck all history before that money, the former residents of lower leagues in the not too distant past.

This man will not have a legacy, the only one is that he was a tactically inept, cautious, unambitious, bottling failure and average in every single respect.

He should not get a huge pay rise, he should get a P45, a suitcase, a passport, a taxi, an Airbus A380 and go to Schalke immediately, and take his equally unambitious lover BK with him.

Which is the very reason we should make a change after 11 years, the idea we should annually accept "Wigan" episodes till the end of time is just bizarre.

Or as you say: "some of us just don't get it"

It's a well put togther piece.

Moyes will never change no matter how much money he gets to spend.

If I can expand on that a little, some you lose when you should win, some you win when you should lose, some you lose when you should lose and some you win when you should win. Some you draw when you should win and sometimes you lose when you should draw. Sometimes you draw when the draw has been unkind and sometimes win or lose when the draw has been kind. I guess that putting 25 men on a field, 40,000 people in 4 stands, 4 million viewers on TV, a million clowns on the internet will result in some unexpected variables a la Wigan.

You've managed to demonstrate an almost mathematical proof of what many of us have known intuitively all along. Great read.

The fact remains that he hasn't won at the Sky 4 away, and he hasn't won anything yet.

What has he proved?

I also remember a game at Old Trafford when we got beat 1-0 but they didn't have a single shot on target.

While it might be unpalatable to some, the fact remains that our 2 biggest assets are DM and his relationship with his chairman. Fellaini, Baines, Rooney, Lescot, Arteta, Cahill, Graveson, Yakubu, Mirrallas, Rodwell, Jags, Gibbo, Johnson and whoever else have all come/gone/stayed and all with the same result: we can give anyone a game and we have an almost legendary team spirit. With some extra cash for DM the sky is the limit. Just imagine what this team would have done with 2 top class additions.

We've paid, under Moyes's reign, £1.076m per point.

If we therefore would not have paid approx £63m as much over the time span, we would be on 240 points, not 299, but would have been "safe" in the top fight.

What's our debt?

Are we spending that £63m the last 6 years chasing ghosts and putting our Club in a very precarious financial situation? Should we have been accepting 16th through 13th place or so year on and year out and not have the debt which riddles us?

The expenditure, based upon results, seems an unwise one. We've won nothing.

If this is the hard empirical data I'd say, with no incoming revenue streams in the immediate future, we've been spending money we don't have to only finish 8th through 6th.

Based upon our spend per points 6 year average, how much more would we need to spend to reach a CL spot and the money that comes with it?

Approx £10m per year could have not been spent and seen us stay in the top flight.

Now that is not a very rosy picture and I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but why spend that money if we can't get to where we need to be? And 6 years on, despite Moyes out-performing his peers on a point per expenditure basis, we are not there.

God I'm not an accountant and I might have this all wrong so someone who is much, much more intelligent than I please let me know if my analysis is flawed.

Just after joining Preston North End as Physio, he was asked by the manager to go to the local country park to sort out some runs for pre-season training. The manager was thinking of promoting a senior player to a player-coach role so suggested they go together to sort out the running sessions. They ran round the park in both directions, did sprints up the biggest hill & then did them again & so on until they felt they had the whole schedule as they wanted.

“Finally, several hours later, we slumped into the car, both knackered. I turned to this guy and said, ‘Wow, you are keen. Is that what you want to do when you finish playing – go into coaching?’”

“He looked at me and said, ‘Baz, by the time I am 45 I firmly believe I will have been Manager of the Season in the Premier League.’”

“It took me all my self control not to laugh in this poor deluded fellow’s face. And of course he was wrong – by the time he was 45, David Moyes had been named LMA Premier League Manager of the Season three times.”

Moyes's league record at Everton is almost identical to Colin Harvey's and, to some extent, both have been judged by way of comparison to their respective predecessors. Would a couple more players make all the difference to Moyes? Does he lack that something extra — flair, maybe — to be elevated to great from very good?

God help us, whoever the next manager in will be. We're fucked as long as this lot controls the Club.

That story would have been better if the coach you took out had set some technical stuff up,a few hours of ball work drills instead of picking the "biggest hill" to run up for a few hours.
Still,may as well start as you intend to go on.

Given that we no longer have any assets, the impact as such on the commercial viability of the club is now horrendous, it's also a complete falsify to say that players sold have funded Moyes success in the transfer market, the bulk of most incoming transfer fees have found their way to the bank and certainly not DM.

Our losses to earn each point have to be taken into consideration, the club commercial income, or lack of it, has meant the sale of players who Moyes did not want to go, we build them up and sell them on. To survive.

Without David Moyes we probably would have sunk out of sight by now, somewhere in the championship playing Leeds. That we haven't is a testament to Moyes skill in making a silk purse out of a sows ear. Repeatedly.

I would have to say this is his forte and he has succeeded in doing this in spite of the lack of support and financial hindrance of the board. Repeatedly.

No doubt about that, he has been a man for our time. But can he step up? Under the present owners we will never know. Not one has backed the man th succeed.

Commercially his performance overall has kept us in the EPL with a lightweight team, short on resources and choice, that has to be admired. Though his style has been lacking at times, his conservative nature and sheer bloody minded arrogance can be frustrating to fans, he has performed.

By sheer blinding contrast, his ability has paled the commercial performance of the senior management of the club into insignificance. He has papered over the cracks for 11 years but he knows as do the board that the credit card mentality is finished, we have nothing left to offset the losses other than player sales.

The writing is on the wall, until we clear our debts, become reinvested and start to build up our assets once again, the only way to appease the banks are to sell our best.

We need Moyes more than he needs us, if only to stay in the Premiership.

Christine,in a nutshell then,if David goes we will be relegated?

The problem is he has an aged squad needing replacement without a great deal of funding to do it.

Until we have another owner, more investment, we are treading water... Without investment any new manager would face an incredibly difficult task, build a new team with no money, get the best out of an ageing and demoralized squad (Moyes men) not a great prospect, but time has all but run out anyway.

Oh we so miss those days, don't we!

Which therefore comes down to the real question for the MOB.

What is the probability of a new manager getting into Champions League regularly? Once is fine, but it needs to be year after year.

What is the probability of a new manager not keeping us in the Premier League?

The latter has a higher probability than the former, a significantly higher probability.

And would we swop positions with Wigan at the moment? 2 Cup Finals, one at City and one last day of the season with Villa to see who goes down.

I don't know whether I missed it or if someone else has eluded to it but from this we should be able to draw a figure of how much, exponentially, Moyes would theoretically need to bridge the gap between us and Top 4 / Champions....?

If we can send Moyes a copy with a breakdown for the board!

Either way, well done, I really enjoyed the article.

If you're happy with us playing relatively boring defensive football, finishing between 6th and 10th and winning nothing for the next 3-5 years, then Moyes is your man.

If you'd like to see some more expansive football, much better performances in the cup competitions with an actual chance of winning something AND still finish around mid table at worst - then Moyes is not your man.

He is boring and safe - if that floats your boat then Moyes is your man.

Personally I think the 4m is outrageous as I believe an ok manager could achieve at least mid table finishes, if not better, with the squad we have. I find the OP a joke as it somehow tries to say that BK and his chums have done well over the last 10 odd years. Why don't you compare our balance sheet 10-12 years ago to what it is today - then come back to me on that one!

If you want a manager who can challenge for Europe and CL each season with 15 decent players with five of the last seven transfer windows without a single first team purchase, Moyes is your man.

Some think we should be higher if only for Moyes, some think we're as high as we are because of him. We all have the same ambitions, but only some will expect returns on reality, some expect returns on their hopes.

Also I 100% disagree with your notion that under Moyes we challenge for the CL every season. The main reason we got as close as we did this year is because the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool and to an extent villa and Newcastle, have performed much worse than they really should have done. If half of these clubs had performed like they really should, we would likely be around 8th.

Anyway, its all ifs and buts and we'll never know - however one thing that is obvious is that if Moyes was such great manager as the media and others make out, why has no 'bigger' club ever come in for him? Spurs and Chelsea obviously said no last year and City weren't interested before either. He's a safe pair of hands, which suit the current ownership and is looking increasingly likely that all will remain as it was some June.

Nick Evertons points difference for the last 10 seasons,between our finishing position and 4th place are set out below

8
21
Q 4th
17
10
11
9
9
14
13

Slight exaggeration to claim David has us "challenging for CL each season"

Denis, I wasn't directly responding to you, though I was taking your lead...

I don't know why this other manager will guarantee better cup performances on his arrival... hope he does.
But expansive football can also mean shit football, and I prefer to remain competitive, under whatever brand of style that comes.
Remember that when losing away to Sunderland becomes standard. But you're ok with midtable so long as its pass and move.

Anyway, other than the top 6, who else plays more attractive football than us? Swansea and Wigan?
When on song we do play some glorious stuff, and even when Moyes reverts to percentages it is not the hoof 1-0 job done of old.

How do you know no big team has come in for him?

Denis, is this as good as it gets? Hope not. But we challenged for CL this season because of Moyes, not despite of him. He will decide if he stays or goes so there's little point in talking about whether he should get the boot. But he pushes us much higher than we should expect to be given the size of squad and transfer kitty. He's his own worst enemy at times, but it would take a manager of some standing to get the same out of this team.

He can take us to CL positions, but only on the off-chance, like this season. And I don't think bar a Mourinho or a Hiddink those odds would improve if we brought in Bilic or any other choice manager. And certainly not with a Hughes or McLaren.

What the question should be is how much will Moyes have to spend?
Will it be enough to coax him to stay?
Which players will be gone?
What happens if it's not enough?
What's plan B?

Your at it again.
"Moyes has us challenging for CL each season"

Errr......he would do if he had some investment.

If he's was as good as he thinks, why have none of the top teams in England or Europe signed him up when positions have come available? Because they see a second-rate negative manager who thinks he's as big as his ego.

This man has no respect for the supporters otherwise he wouldn't have refused to sign a new contract. It's complete bollocks and can be seen as a smokescreen to deflect attention away from Kenwright who fucked up our challenge for Champions League by not making any finances available to strengthen in January.

A big fear is that Moyes will sign in the summer because no-one else wants him, he will get a big fat pay rise and will agree to play within the finances of Kenwright and the muppets on the board. Watch this space and dread the Summer of Discontent.

No that's not a fact it's an opinion, the facts are in the article.

Whether you agree with the interpretation of the facts is a different matter.

No that's not a fact it's an opinion, the facts are in the article.

Whether you agree with the interpretation of the facts is a different matter.

The football field is the only reason Everton exists, and, even after a win today, it is not an enjoyable spectacle at the moment.

Look at where we are as a club and most importantly where we are in the table. Moyes has been amazing for Everton and if we don't get him on another contract... I honestly don't know what happens next?

Sometimes I read these posts and wonder do some people really not remember the dark days before Moyes? Fighting relegation... the Dogs of War... Personally, I don't want to go through that again.

So let's get rid of Moyes and play some attacking football? Really? People get highlights and snippets of other teams and assume somehow that there's this great football being played all the time. Most teams have their days, but theyrebjust premier league ballast. Fodder for the big boys.

What would be interesting to see is that payscale table only with titles won and finals played instead of money per week.

Then we might get a truer picture of value for money

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/football-ferguson-tops-manager-rich-list-084206922.html

Or do you get what you pay for, is it the singer not the song.

Point 2) no matter how much wages you throw at the coach, silk purse and sows ear might ( will, does? ) kick in.

Point 3) whoever:if the board don't give him sufficient tools ( money ) to do the job you will get a half arsed job...

Point 4) Moyes stays...we got what we get 50% ( in varying permutations )curates egg seasons...or as some one said, too many groundhog games, too many groundhog seasons.

Point 5) come June, we will be living in those supossedly cursed ' intersting times '

Strange days indeed, strange days indeed.

Virtually every manager operates under the fear of sack should results be far worse than expected. BK probably wouldn't sack Moyes even if we were relegated.

Crucially, Moyes has had 11 years of full control over who comes, or goes. The players are all his and he has control over the youth setup too.

I've no doubt we could do far worse than Moyes if we were to replace him - he's a decent safety-first coach whose sides are well organised and generally difficult to beat - but we might do better. If you go through life being shit scared of change you'll never amount to fuck all.

Never mind the wholly inappropriate comparison, are you now saying that Moyes is also responsible for the crap financial position of the club?

I presume he must also be at fault for the 3 goals Wigan leaked tonight - he appears to be in the firing line for everything