Time to say Goodbye?

Now don your crash hat as the excuse merchants reach for their baseball bats.

This season, we had the chance to go after the League Cup but gave it up for Swansea who now can play in Europe. A bit of silverware and the chance to play abroad... fucking Leeds Utd was another capitulation with an understrength team.

Oh and yeah throw in the lightweight Junior for good measure — never to be seen or heard again. After the first 5 years of Moyes and Hoofball, he had steadied the ship somewhat and another 6 years of consolidation has brought us to this point. The side plays nice joined-up football but has no bite where it counts.

Can Moyes achieve his dream with more cash to splash? I really don't think it's the cash that is the main problem, I just think DM hasn't got that belief he can do it and, unless he can win something soon, he will never believe.

I'm sorry but that is nonsense, I don't think that motivation has ever been an issue.

So Moyes can motivate his players to beat the Champions, take 4 pts off both Man City and Spurs, outplay Chelsea etc but a lack of motivation is what cost us in the last minutes against Newcastle, Fulham, Norwich twice?

There is no comparison between Moyes and Ferguson because, as you said, he went out and bought the league with the signing of RVP this season for Man Utd; this is something that Moyes could only dream about.

Can anyone on here see them going for a big Continental name? No, neither can I; a Martinez is the best we can hope for, and his experience has only been relegation, even if they do win the Cup.

So on reflection, I want Moyes to stay, but that is more to do with the idiots in charge, rather than Moyes being a great manager; at least he can organise & motivate his teams to stay in the top half of the Premier League.

I had a good look at that Fulham team yesterday, on a similar wage bill to us, and they looked very, very, poor.

When he first came I always thought we had a chance of winning games by nicking the odd goal and keeping it tight. I think this season has seen some genuinely competitive performances based on more than just solid defence and nicking a goal.

He seems ambitious to change things in that direction but that means buying more players so...

ToffeeWebbers often spout off "we should win things", "we're not satisfied", "we're a great club". All true statements - but all totally meaningless compared to the wealth and draw of other clubs.

Sir Alex Ferguson, Mourinho, Guadiola, would all still flounder in our current financial state.

To blame Moyes for Jelavic's loss of form is a tad harsh.

And ultimately any manager who, under your own example above – sell your best players and only have a part of the money recouped to spend – is going to suffer.

To me, your article suggests we have either stalled, or gone backwards this year. In fact, we've already scored more goals than last season, we have accumulated more points, and if you recall, in 2011-12 we lost double the amount of games we have this term.

How anyone expects him to genuinely compete, or conquer, the massive financial firepower of the moneyed elite, on comparative buttons, is anyone's guess. Compare our first-eleven to the bench-strength alone of the Manchester & London clubs above us: Oranges & apples.

The Magic-Wand Merchants will undoubtedly point to 'lesser clubs,' winning the League Cup, and they do have a point; but in reality, nobody, without financial clout, has penetrated the top four, except David Moyes's Everton.

I believe that our ability to advance is directly proportionate to further investment, coupled with Moyes's unimpeachable talent for squeezing the last drop out of every limited resource he has.

If our board do not front-up, I wouldn't blame him for walking; and I look forward to seeing whatever 'genius,' can actually do more under the same constraints.

That said, I do not trust Kenwright to deliver on that front.

Good read, by the way.

The chances of another manager taking us into the top four regularly under current circumstances is in my opinion, highly unlikely, regardless of their pedigree. The day will come when we are analysing whoever Moyes's replacement will be and we will look back at the Moyes era, and probably appreciate it more than we do now.

It's all 'finger in the dam' stuff at Everton for many years now and unfortunately that's all we can aspire to without significant investment. There is no white knight multi-billionaire or even billionaire on the horizon and there never will be.

If Moyes goes in the summer, I will thank him for what he has done for the club, wish him well and look ahead with interest to a new but uncertain era. If he stays, I won't be that disappointed either as I know Everton will not regress and still have the potential to improve further.

4th with a goal difference of -1 with 61 points, despite only winning 6 of our last 17 league matches, losing 9 of them, one of them being our worst defeat in years, 7-0 to Arsenal.

The 2004-05 season was probably the worst in Premier League history, mainly because we got CL despite losing 10 of our last 18 PL games.

61 points would only have been good enough for 6th this season, so Moyes's 4th place was the biggest fluke in the club's history.

Couple of things: Last year, Jelavic was lauded repeatedly on here for how he didn't just walk the off-side line looking to poach. That he worked his socks off outside the box. What's different this year is he didn't "instinct" the many chances he's had into the net. Seems to me the culpability lies with Jelavic, not Moyes.

As for Fellaini pushed forward, you must have forgotten all the chances Jelavic had to "instinct" last year and this specifically because Moyes, Drab Dour Davey, moved Fella up to create more attacking.

As to Fergy: "he would have had our current crop of players motivated for every game and believing that they should win every game". Hahahahah. I laughed assuming you were joking. Are you referring to his great motivational tool, "Keep that up and I'll replace you with the 2-3 I have on the bench just as good as you". I'd enjoyed being a fly on the Goodison locker room wall listening to that speech. Of course, I wouldn't hear because he wouldn't dare try it.

And don't forget, with Everton, Fergy would have a lot more work to do personally than he does supervising his well-oiled ManU machine. When's the last season you think he had to spend his time between games on airplanes to watch potential prospects instead of one of his vast scouting sytem folks doing it? Moyes has to do it every year.

Moyes' budget is pocket change for ManU. Yeah, let's get Ferguson in here on an EFC budget. That Fergy, he'd get us home.

As regards Jelavic, I agree that he's had a lot of chances this season so ultimately the responsibility for his lack of goals lies with himself, not Moyes, although the manager's lack of understanding of attacking, creative players means he is no real help to a struggling forward.

Bit baffled with your Fellaini comment, though. Are you suggesting that basically playing 4-5-1 with the central attacker (Fellaini) dropping in behind the striker is somehow an adventurous tactic? It's not, you know.

Thanks for this thoughtful and nicely written account of the last decade or so and where we are now and what we should do. I agree with you for the most part.

It's a little like feeling a divorce would be the best thing for both parties who nonetheless cling to the threads of a grey marriage because they peer into the future beyond breaking-up and are deeply afraid of what might happen.

Now we are not in a 'grey' state but we peer ahead a year or two and feel fear for what we might become in this unknown. The spectre of this unknown is often used on these boards to make the point that Moyes must remain in the hot seat. This is for me at any rate one of the strongest reasons for sticking to the status quo.

How on earth can we trust Dickie Dahling Luvvy ex-Boys-Penner (allegedly: no photos exist) "Joan, Joan Dahling, I'm over here" Kenwright and his shower of miserly share-counting cronies to make the right choice of who to put in the top job if Moyes does indeed walk? On the one hand we have let-downs, lies (quite frankly), insults, some quite silly posturing at times, a hush-hush cloud of secrecy (because, bless, some justifiably frustrated true blues had the breathtaking audacity to table critical questions in would you Adam and Eve it public), and one penny-pinching tightening the purse-strings move after another; and, on the other, we have a decent and dignified and hard-working gaffer who prefers to call a spade a spade.

Somehow this state of affairs and stark contrasts had been moulded in all branches of the media into an exemplary model for others to follow and, like The Old Lady, Kenwright stands for all that is traditional and good about football as it once was in days long gone before the commercial Premiership. He and his club are plucky hangovers from a bygone era we cherish and, aggghhhh, always 'punch above their weight'.

Our Prem era boards are the main reason for our seeming inability to move on to the next stage. These men have not reacted as we might hope to the unfolding of the new world after 1991. They are rich beyond an average season ticket holders wildest dreams, yet that average season ticket holder has put more money into EFC over the last decade than any one of these leeches – loans are not putting your money in and as night follows day they are calling their loans in. This is, quite frankly, disgusting. We have real money on our board and if they want the honour that comes with this intimate link to EFC then they need to dig into their deep pockets. Nothing comes free in their cut-throat commercial world each one of them will tell you as they deny another worthy worker a pay rise or sack another one with sanctimonious sorrow. These leeches get all the benefits of being on our board without handing over a tiny fraction of their wealth to our decent gaffer.

The buck stops with the gaffer on the pitch and it stops with the board off it. I would like Moyes to jump ship, if only for his own sake, as I think he deserves an opportunity to take over a team without the all-too-obvious disadvantages of being under the thumb of Kenwright and his stingy leeches.

And this is the nub of the matter. Could anyone else do better than Moyes next season or the one after with Palladium Billy and his money-mongering crew holding the purse-strings? Back in the unknown once more. Is it worth a punt? Is this a risk worth taking? Could we, would we, sink without him?

In an ideal world a buyer would appear over the horizon and quick. That is without any shadow of a doubt the single most important thing for us: yet again, though, we hear it, look at Blackburn, Portsmouth, and so on and so on. Okay, let's just stay where we are shall we and nothing will change at all anywhere. How did we become so frightened of taking a step that must one day be made? True this standing still is only one dimension of our thoughts, but it's deeply rooted, and it frustrates me even though I too am knuckle-biting about 2014 or 2015.

I would rather have a new owner than a new manager but something has to change. The more likely scenario is Moyes leaving with our warms thanks because like a child's fave toy Jowls Billy will hang on to EFC as long as possible while telling all of us that he loves the club and ha sits best interests at heart. Go for precisely the reasons I admire you Moyes, your innate decency and dignity and self-respect. Don't put up with Toad of Toad Hall and his leeches any longer, unless, Hell will freeze over, you get a cash injection proportionate to your endeavours over the last decade. It will be like the day after a long-reigning monarch dies. It will be odd. Things will feel strange. Eleven years is more or less one-seventh of an average human life. But we will be fine. Everton will still be in the Prem in say 2042.

Reduce Moyes's 4th to your hearts content - history won't.

His lack of goals have cost us the points which would have had us up there with the top three. If he had continued on from last season like we all thought he would Everton would be 5 or 6 points better off at this stage than we are now.

I don't know what has happened to him or if he will come good again, It would be great to see the clinical one touch finishing return again.

I think that Ross's revision of that season is a little uncharitable but it's full of interesting points: for one, we will end up 6th or 7th in 2012-2013 with a better record than 2004-2005 when we ended up 4th. Hmmmmm. Have we moved forwards? Yes and no.

The 2005 4th place is our new we won the league for some but it is not. Richard Dodd's job-done 6th-8th (9th?) comfort zone is, he might say (and I don't want to put words in his mouth) a realistic achievement in this day and age; the right scales to measure us. I hope not.

Please, no-one say "Be careful watch you wish for"...

Credit to Moyes for putting the first 11 together that he has, but beyond them it's a bit of a wasteland, and I'm not convinced he really knows how to make the best out of the first 11 either.

Heaven knows what has happened to Jelavic but when you put Fellaini and Big Vic in a line up as your main attacking threats you'd be forgiven for thinking 'Stoke...?'

Under Moyes, we make up the numbers but almost always finish outside of the prize money places. I genuinely don't think he can personally do better than he's doing though - he's clearly been a very committed, hard working and I believe honest servant to our club and deserves enduring respect for that. I don't think he's left anything on the pitch, I think he's worked as hard as he can, and what we see is us at our best under David Moyes.

The thing is, I don't want to be an also ran, not even the best also ran. I want to be a contender. A real contender.

For instance, I want to see us march into Anfield next Sunday and TAKE 3 points, not turn up with a knife to a gunfight attitude and watch Gerrard and Carragher turn us inside out - were fucking better than them! And if we're not we should be given the 'transitions' they've been through since they are sold off and the continuity we've had - over a decade under the same management.

I don't like losing games, and yes I would hate going back to nattling relgation but more than anything I want to see us play attacking football, really go for it and win games that really matter on the day , the derbies, cup games and victories that make you get up in the morning and grin all day at work.

In 11 years Moyes has given us.......... I would say roughly one a year. Not a good enough return for £4m a year for me, which is why he has to go.

So - next one up is in a weeks time, over to you David.

We never going to get 3rd and just had to stay ahead of the shite which we did.

All the people who want shut of Moyes could you put forward the manager who will take us to the Champions league position, I can hear the silence already. For those saying the Moyes fans are happy with securing our Premiership status how is finishing in the top 10 for most of his tenure just securing our premiership status. The other nonsense spouted is we are Everton we should be winning things, well I have been watching us for over 60 years and apart from a spell in the 60s and 80s we have not competed were we are today under Moyes.

Watch out for the "like a new signing" announcements when Moyes resigns quickly followed by takeover rumours, failed signings and a couple of journeymen loanees.

Despite all the speculation we all know this is going to happen again at groundhog park during the summer.
The majority will fall for it all over again and clap the smug bastard the moment we get a great win at home against one of the big boys.

Well guess what I still want us to be one f the big boys. Unrealistic I hear some of you shout, we'll is it? Is it really?

If it is then why do we bother at all?

I posted about the scouting in response to the OP's stating Fergy in would make the Club try harder. A fucking joke. Let's get him in and see if his 70+ year-old ass can work a team the same way Moyes is forced to.

"although the manager's lack of understanding of attacking, creative players means he is no real help to a struggling forward".

Really?

So Moyes signed the guy, turned him loose, and because of Jela himself missing all the chances this season he put in the net last is down to Moyes offering, "no real help to a struggling forward"? C'mon.

Christ, I was ready for Jela to be sat weeks ago. Yet Moyes keeps sending him out. Why? Because Jela doesn't track back?

"Are you suggesting that basically playing 4-5-1 with the central attacker (Fellaini) dropping in behind the striker is somehow an adventurous tactic? It's not, you know".

That's your suggestion, not mine. I don't care if we come out in a 2-2-2-2-2-1 formation. Fella was pushed forward to increase our attack. The players, Jela especially, haven't finished all the chances created. That's no suggestion. It's what I've seen.

The OP posts, "It’s time to be brave, it’s time to say goodbye". "Goodbye"? OK. Managers come an go. Ferguson too. I say Moyes is leaving. "be brave"? Well, I'm a fellow with a general positive outlook on life.

But I know the most critical element in bravery is acknowledging your fear. So, what comes next after Moyes is dumped?

I'm brave.

Nothing happened , he was a safe pair of hands and that was it. We've got a safe pair of hands at Everton and it it seems to me that we keep it as it is and see what might happen or take a chance.

Now, what don't you understand about what I said?

Since Moyes was appointed there have been 20 opportunities for him to take the hot seat at 'bigger' clubs. I'm certain hes been considered but confident he's not been interviewed once for any of them.

I don't like Ferguson but after being appointed manager in 1986 he turned a poisoned chalice into serial trophy success. They had not won the League for 26 years when he took them to the title in 92-3, at that point they had 7 titles to our 9 – they now have 20.

So – why was Ferguson interviewed and given the job at Man Utd in the first place? Because he is a winner.

Google 'Aberdeen FC' and then tell me this 70-year-old hasn't got what it takes; he still does a pretty fine job against us.

But Moyes has to view with his own eyes, players Ferguson has assistants to do for him. All I'm saying.

And, in the context of the OP's opinion that our boys would be more motivated if Ferguson was managing instead of Moyes.

Moyes releases Phil Neville in 2013.

Discuss....

What bigger clubs? And, "20 opportunities", no less. Name them.

It ever occur to you he's an honorable man signed a contract and so hasn't been on the market? You know, your and my manager? A fucking honorable man? Hell, forget you and me. The manager of Everton Football Club, an honorable man?

Has that occurred to you?

Sit down for this one. We are a great club but in 2013 there are 'bigger' clubs in England than Everton. I would name them as..

Man Utd - no change of manager since Moyes
Arsenal - no change
Liverpool - 4 changes
Chelsea - 7 changes
Spurs - 6 changes
Man City - purely financial but they are now - 4 changes

So - 21 changes of management since we appointed Moyes. Moyes has not been interviewed for these jobs.

I believe Moyes, as I said in a comment on this thread, is a very honorable, honest, servant of the club. He's also run his contract dry on every occasion, which is his right, but doesn't paint him as a 'lifer'.

Consider me sitting.

Herbert Chapman

Brian Clough

Bill Shankly

Three men that transformed their clubs in terms of success - two of them did it to more than one club too.

Night night.

Managers. Matter.

There is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and if you want to throw some my way I'll be more than happy to consider it.

However, I'm in favour of the "blow it up" option, where we let Moyes go, sell Baines and Fellaini, and give the new manager the proceeds to spend to rebuild the team.

If we got the right manager, eg, someone like Rikaard or De Boer, he would be able to attract some good players due to his standing in the game.

Everything about Everton is kinda stale right now, and I just want some new faces to cheer.

a) Were we the 4th best team that year?

b) If so why is it lucky that everton outperformed everyone but the top 3 - were most of our goals offside or victories somwwhat dubious?

c) where should we have finished considering our budget and relative spend?

Argue what you want we finished 4th, we ground out loads of 1-0 wins. Although we had a few games where we were beaten by a decent scoreline. we were the epitomy of the word 'team' and extremley hardworking.

We broke into a top 4 that really only consisted of Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool at that time where as now you can add City and Spurs to that list because they have invested loads (we haven't).

Ridiculous that even in a great positive that you seek the negative, pathetic really. How can your anti Moyes argument even be taken seriously when you're so myopic that you cant even recognise the previous good work that Moyes has done even if you don't rate him now.

Simple question Ross - what was your opinion of Moyes and Everton when we finished 4th that year?

If you expected more than you're either crazy or lying?

Why now use that as a feeble argument to reduce the good work thats been done with no budget?

Don't recall Herbert Chapman, Brain Clough or Bill Shankly managing in the premier league in the last 5 years where money and resources have never been so significant.

If you take SAF whose is the latest of the great managers. In 1986 whe he joined Utd the British transfer record was 2.3mil seling Hughes to Barcelona and in 2001 when Moyes joined Everton the record was 28.1mil for Veron. (also involving utd). In 2009 it was 80mil for Ronaldo.

What we can really deduce from that its a very different game nowadays and much harder to transform a club without a pot to piss in.

And whilst your at it, remember you are. Predator, with a natural and nurtured talent for scoring goals, something you've done reliably all your life and why you were bought, now how does that make you feel? Valued, understood, confident, important, special, effective, utilized or does it make you feel knackered, useless, pointless, demotivated, misunderstood, tired, fed up.

This is what a defender as a 'coach' and tactician simply does not get and why we will struggle to ever have a 20 goal a season striker at the club with Moyes here. Quite simply, we would need one of the hardest working, strongest, most lethal strikers in the world, who could play up on his own, run the channels, bully the defense, hold up play, bring players in, run at defenses on his own, short from miles out with both feet, bring the ball down on his own and make chances out of nothing. Think Drogba in his prime on steroids, now tell me where this superman is, how much he would cost, whether we could get him and how long he'd want to hang around doing that for, I won't hold my breath waiting.

This is why you play to your players strengths, Jelavic is a predator, but he needs to be in the box, fresh and ready to pounce, it's the midfield that should be tasked with creating the chances for him.

PN seems to have caught Fellaini's disease who for 4 seasons was not able to pass a ball forward, and now that Fellaini has been moved forward and as a result he is playing better than he has ever done with us, and is our leading goalscorer, you reckon it was a bad move?

Moyes may have one financial hand tied behind his back, but with his other hand he could try waving them forward a bit more instead of back.

RVP's goals have provided United with 20 points, 23.5% of their total haul.

Take these points off Man Utd's tally and put them onto Arsenals and the two clubs literally swap places.

So why werent Arsenal closer last season? RVP scored 30 goals for them, so its not like he underperformed?

Because the team that Ferguson has assembled and the way he sends them out gets results, because he's simply a better manager.

The sort of manager that would notice that he needed more than Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck up front to keep up with City when they had Aguerro, Tevez, Dzeko and Ballotelli as was.

So he went and bought the best striker in the league, at a snip, and kept his part of the bargain by giving RVP a title to his name in return for the 25 goals he's scored, which is much more than Wenger ever did.

Food entertaining, attacking football;
The League Cup, and;
A derby win at Anfield.

Not asking for the earth there, am I folks?

i don't care who he is, where he's from, or what he's done before — once those three things are done and dusted, then (and only then) do we dare dream of greater things.

The OP stated Moyes was culpable for Jela missing chances this season he put it last season. And Jela having to work other than sitting in the box being the reason. My response was based on what me, you, and everyone else saw last season.

Jela didn't simply walk the off-side line Yakubu-style. He busted his ass outside the box too and was rightly praised for it right here in TW.

And here's my response to, "This is what a defender as a 'coach' and tactician simply does not get and why we will struggle to ever have a 20 goal a season striker at the club with Moyes here".

This defender has signed Arteta, Yakubu, King Louie, Pienaar, Jelavic, Miralles, pushed Fellaini forward, and has signed, developed and turned loose a RB/LB attacking combo unmatched in the Prem. All, specifically, to push the attack.

So you just keep on with your park experiments, prof. I'll just keep wasting my time watching the games.

And you, like me and all the ones in here declaring as fact the positions he has or hasn't been offered, haven't the faintest idea if Moyes was offered anything by anyone.

Are you trying to say that Utd won the league because of SAF - if so then I can post an equally ridiculous question to the one that you did - if he's so good why did City win it the year before?

My point that you've neglected to consider is that no-one has won the league since Moyes joined Everton wiythout spending heavily and how many teams would you say have finished ahead of Everton having spent less?

Ian there will be fans of other clubs saying 'name a club who've made the Champions League and spent less than us...' and the answer could well be 'Everton?', 'OK... OK... But apart from Everton.'

And they might well follow that up with 'but they've got David Moyes', and they might be right. My point is Moyes has done well but I and many others believe he could and should do better - because we want to see a better style of football, a different attitude in big games and players brought on from the youth team etc none of which has to do with money.

Saying you can't succeed without money is a bit like Hanson saying 'you wont win anything with kids'... but someone did, didn't they...?

And if you can't succeed without money, and we don't like getting any soon - why bother at all?

Bily cost us £9m. Mirallas cost us £6m.

Do you think a team of Mirallas's would be a team of Bily's?

Man Utd did win the league with kids, name me a club that's won the league without spending big?

As for why bother - none of us can stop can we?

That's a really good line Ian, and could be a thread in itself. I guess it all depends on our definition of success.

After 11 years - on the one hand v respectable finishes in the league, 4th place once, and a cup final, on the other hand no trophies, poor cup runs on the whole, ritual humiliation by our neighbours, no wins away at the big boys and on the whole pretty stagnant, unexciting fare on the pitch.

On balance I would say Moyes has done a good job well, but I wouldn't describe him, or us, as successful under his tenure.

I think you are confusing the history and success of Everton FC - the 9 league titles and 5 FA Cups with the success of the assignment that Moyes has done.

We haven't won any more titles but we are now knocking on the door of Europe rather than than the Championship. Moyes has achieved what he has in spite of an inept board.

I'm going to ask you a couple of questions, and I want you to tell me the answer that genuinely first pops into your head - my answers are going to be on the next post.

1. What is your enduring memory of last season?

2. What do you think will be your enduring memory of this season?

1. Humiliated by Liverpool at Anfield and then Wembley.

2. Humiliated by Wigan in the FA Cup.

I know Moyes has given us consistency, and almost guaranteed safety, and I wouldn't really care too much about getting fourth if he could fix the things above - which are fixable in my opinion.

We were GIFTED a route to Wembley this year and completely fucked it up.

We've almost been given an 'in' to the Champions League this season given the way Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool have screwed up relatively and again - fucked it up.

In 11 years how many stand out great memories do you have from the Moyes years?

Off the top of my head mine are....

Goslings goal v Liverpool in FA Cup.

Carsley goal v Liverpool.

Beating Liverpool 3-0 at Goodison.

Rooney playing in Blue.

Fiorentina.

Ossies goal in Europa.

Fellainis pirouette at Eastlands.

Cahills overhead at Stamford Bridge.

Neville tackle on Ronaldo.

Beating Man Utd to get to the Cup Final.

The Cup Final, not from performance ust the fact we got there.

Getting fourth.

So - there's a few, and there'll be a few more, and there are a lot more than say under Walter 'Disappointed' Smith but do you think that's enough for 11 years from a 'successful' manager...? About one a year? Because for every one of these there are a few negative ones, and lots and lots of blanks and to be honest I don't want to watch football week in week out to not come away with any memories.

'Grandad.... what were the Moyes years like?'

'Erm..... he kept us up.'

'Tell me about some of the games!'

'Erm.....'

Maybe I'm the fool for not thinking top half's enough.

Bill does not have the balls to pick a top talented manager, or have the brains to find one. Moyes will probably influence Bill heavily on who will be the next manager if he goes, but I do not think Moyes or Bill is capable of picking the right manager for our club.

The alternative is Moyes staying. I like that better then getting Martinez from Wigan or Lennon from Celtic. There simply is no point in lowering our ambitions, so the best result for now would be to have Moyes stay on.

I can predict a downward spiral if we get Martinez, after a season with him at the helm we will be looking more like Wigan towards the bottom of the league, because players such as Fellaini and Baines will have been sold to ease the banks.

Moyes at least is able to prevent the flood of players leaving because he has backbone and respect, but any other new manager like Martinez will just want to please Bill and sell who needs to be sold.

The big problem with Martinez is not how he plays, but the players he buys, they are not good enough. At least Moyes has an eye for a decent player (though in the future I would suggest NOT listening to Weir on buying players such as Jelavic or Naismith).

I can see Solskjaer and Bilic being very good for us, but they will not get picked because Bill does not have the brains to do it. It would take Bill around 5 years to finally find the right manager, but then again, for Bill avoiding relegation is what it is all about!!!!!!

From last year I remember 2 things about our season;

a) The FA Cup Semi/Distin backpass
b) Finishing above Liverpool.

This year
a) Wigan
b) Too many draws/last minute goals.
c) Hopefully finishing above Liverpool.

Interesting that your answers focus on specific games and reference them as fixable. Yes we shouldn't have lost to Wigan and Distin should have played a soft pass blind but you name me any team and I can tell you a result that they shouldn't have had/mistake they shouldn't have made.

I think it may have been on the radio but someone once said in reply to a question as to why he followed his team when there was little hope of winning things he said "because when something happens which is spectacular or downright terrible I can say I was there to witness it, it's the moments in a game that are remembered beyond the score that are important."

As Mike said there have not been that many moments we can recall over a period of 11 years although my particular stand out memory is of Drogba scoring at the Park End in his early days at Chelsea a fantastic strike to remember even though it was against us.

Its that these few individual matches then somehow define a Manager and his 11 years that I dispute.

We rarely drop points to Wigan at Goodison and yes we werre hammered in the cup by them but that is 1 game and not a season.

League form has to be the aim and we have underspent & overperformed under Moyes.

"So Moyes can motivate his players to beat the Champions, take 4 pts off both Man City and Spurs, outplay Chelsea etc but a lack of motivation is what cost us in the last minutes against Newcastle, Fulham, Norwich twice?"

You may have used different games than I would have, but the players being up for the big teams and looking like they'd rather be on the couch watching tele when they play the shite teams is exactly the motivation problem that a lot of us point to.

I think where I'm coming from is on the whole day to day life can be pretty tough, where much of your time is taken up by the practicalities of normal life.

Football is one of the great things that can take you out of that environment once a week and has the capacity to give you something genuinely thrilling and special. With Moyes though it's like watching a decent but unspectacular fight on the undercard, waiting for the main event, which unfortunately never seems to arrive.

You refer to our record against Wigan, which Im sure over the years they've been in the Prem is good, so fair point. My point is the one big game, the one that really mattered against them we got beat - and beat handsomely.

This is Moyes in microcosm for me - he churns out the draws here, wins there, to keep us on the periphery, but when it comes to the crunch in the games and performances that really make the difference to a season, and really matter to supporters, more often than not he chokes, which makes all the other effort - which he and the players are admired for by many - redundant.

Your version is that Moyes gets us into a good position and then we choke where as my version is that given the resources, spending power and restrictions that Moyes works under he has no right to get us into those places in the first place.

If I ask you how many teams spend more than us and finish below us what would your answer be? Has to be every team that we're ahead of doesn't it?

Lets be honest your suggestion about a lack of motivation is nothing but an assumption that holds no weight whatsoever.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8455781/everton-problems-being-medium-size-soccer-club

When I was a boy I went to a bog standard state school. A school had stood on the site for a couple of hundred years and in that time not a single pupil had made it to either Oxford or Cambridge - to the extent that we believed it 'was not our right', and that 'right' was reserved, basically, for people with money. And the stats proved us right.

Two years before I left a lad in my brothers year made it, and proved us all wrong - and after him many others followed.

I think where we might differ is I once said to my old man 'it's not all about money Dad', to which he would reply, 'no it's not son, but it does help.'

Moyes is undoubtedly doing a very good job, given his resources, getting good results and outdoing most of his peers from 'poor backgrounds'. If he's given money then sure he will most likely do better but does he have the ability to get to the very highest level?

I don't think he does, but Im certain as difficult as it would be to find him there's someone out there that can - and if there isn't whilst we're at it the least I want to do is enjoy myself trying.

My personal opinion is premiership survival and challenging for trophies whilst having no money is not mutually exclusive to playing great, entertaining football.

And I think, in the end, this is probably where we differ.

Speak to you tomorrow! : )

Does if he the ability to get to the very highest level? Who knows give him some money to spend and we might find out

Not saying that I particularly like our style of play but I do like the stability that Moyes brings and whilst the club has no money to spend we're in safe hands. What if we do go for someone else and they don't work out - it will undo 11 years of good work and we won't have the finances to corect it.

As far as risk is concerned, for me there is only one major risk and that's relegation. We are so shit-scared of that possibility that we daren't roll the dice so we carry on playing safe.

We are going to win nothing with Moyes. What we are going to do though is continue to carry on watching the same 4-5-1, predictable, defensive performances, week-in, week-out and personally after the Liverpool games last season and the Wigan game this season, for me enough is enough.

Most of your argument revolves around one issue, and that is money. If money can buy you the best players, which in turn delivers success, then surely the same can be said of managers? Do you seriously think with £4m pa we couldn't attract a manager capable of keeping us up, playing great football, winning the odd big game and a trophy?

I'm well aware that the grass might look a lot greener on the other side. I've just got to the stage where I think it's time to take a risk and cross the road to find out, because if you don't take risks you ultimately stand still and then go backwards – and that's where we will end up with Moyes.

I personally agree with you wholeheartedly, your points are very well made. If Ian can't or won't accept them after your latest discussion then I suggest you give up.

He who dares and all that, some of our fans are just absolutely shit scared of change, god knows how they deal with the real world which continues to change around them all the time. The irony is, that we are largely in the financial mess we are in because we didn't change and evolve with football in the EPL era, created just as we were one of the big 5. If we keep going on with that mentality at both board and managerial levels then there's only ever going to be one logical outcome, ironically it's what those who fear change the most also fear the most, relegation!

For me, relegation a few years ago might have been exactly what we needed, the clubs value would have plummeted, meaning Kenwright and his Cronies would have been left with nothing. We could have wiped the slate clean and started a new chapter in our history, quite possibly with Everton owned by the fans. Granted we might not have won anything for a few years, but what have we achieved by surviving in the EPL in the last 11 apart from creating a new generation of fans that think survival is success, it makes you want to weep.

You never know though, now that Moyes's hand has been forced to a certain extent by Neville moving on and us needing to beat the Kopites to stay above them, and Moyes desperately trying to enhance his CV, he might actually surprise us all, play Barkley from the off in centre mid and go for it, stranger things have happened.

COYB

At the end of the day there seems to be increasing levels of polarised opinion amongst Evertonians regarding the board and David Moyes, which in the end usually ends up one way.

I'm fairly certain if Moyes stays this will either be his last contract, or the last one as Kenwright as boss, I can't see them both being here the next time renewal comes up.

Robbie I suggest you give up mate - yeah lets roll the dice, we have just as much to gain as we have to lose don't we? Er no - a poor manager comes in and we could be on a downward spiral leading us to relegation, unless we get Jesus in as manager we're not going to challenge for the league anytime soon are we?

Mike if you think the answer will be revealed at 3.30pm are you one of these fans that judges our manager on his results against them. There's more to him than that.

Agree with Mat think that Moyes is doing a good job, yes he's frustrating at times and IF we have great financial backing and resources and could attract top players then MAYBE it might be worth looking at someone else but the grass is definitely not greener now and you have to factor in the financial (or lack of) situation when deciding whats best for the future of the club.

Back to that analogy of Oxford and Cambridge at Mikes school, yes one made it and maybe a couple of others did afterwards - but most don't. Most managers don't last and I don't be for one minute that a new manager is more likely to improve us then lead us to a decline.

COYB!