David Moyes joined an Everton team looking into the abyss. I was just 18 when he came, and my life as an Evertonian has been a miserable one. We won the cup when I was 10, but it isn’t something I can really remember. 10-year -olds just aren’t that engaged in football. I seem to remember celebrating that we won with a ‘yay’ then went on to the next distraction without it entering my mind.
So my conscious days as an Everton supporter were quite simply miserable. The highlights that I can remember being: Gareth Farrelly scoring against Coventry and Marco Materazzi acting like a tit. Then just misery, with players like Alec Cleland, Mitch Ward, Ibrahim Bakayoko, and David Ginola etc. I remember getting excited by Niclas Alexandersson, then he turned out to be shite. Then Stephen Hughes... shite. John Collins... shite.
We did have some good players mind: Gary Speed, Andrei Kanchelskis, Don Hutchison, David Weir, Michael Ball, Kevin Campbell, Olivier Dacourt, yet we never got more than 2 good years out of any of them (apart from Weir) as they got fed up and left or, in KC’s case, just got a bit shit.
In a word, ‘shite’ summed up Everton Football Club. Thank god I wasn’t a conscious fan in the early 90s is all I can say.
Moyes changed that. Whisper it quietly, but Everton are now a good team. The financial situation ain’t much different, only that other teams seem to have more money. Yet I’m disappointed that we have missed out on the Champions League. I’m not elated that we finished 17th rather than 18th. What would you rather have, elation in misery or disappointment in relative happiness?
Much of the so-called ‘MOB’ cite that he tells the team to sit back and not push on. Well, sometimes that appears to be the case; however, most of the time, I’d say that our players are limited in ability. After we score, usually the other team increases the effort level and we just don’t have the players to take control of the game. You could say he buys the players, but if you offered him the choice between a Dembele or a Naismith, I’m sure he pick the former, unfortunately the latter is available for free while the former costs £15M.
Also, our players get tired after 60 mins. What’s the point in telling them to go at it 100% for the first hour, if in the final 30 they get torn to bits. It’s no mystery as to why many teams at the lower end of the league will cite goals conceded at the back end of games that are the cause of their misery.
Yes, I’d have liked to have seen Moyes try a bit more of Barkley and maybe McAleny. But two players of their age are not going do what two £10M+ seasoned professionals could have done. This is the underlying cause of our ‘failure’. In January, Liverpool bought Coutinho and Sturridge — something we could only dream of.
But this season has actually been the season that changed my mind over Moyes. Last year, I was of the mind that he’s done all he can and was privately hoping he went to Spurs. Now I have seen the improvement of the team as a whole, lacking only a true goalscorer, I see Moyes as essential if we are to progress.
Should he go, I don’t predict doomsday, just slight decline into mid-table. This season we have played very well on the most part, yet lacked that cutting edge. Our play has been good and progressive and nothing like the ‘Keep It Tight And Nick A goal’ that some proclaim. Yet he is actually versatile, and will change tactics to be more pragmatic if need be and wins against Man City have proven this to be good. Sometimes it don’t work, but losing to Chelsea or Man Utd when they have substitutes costing more than our entire team, what can you expect? While we want the team to win, sometime we lose and that is just the way it is. Just as I can put on all the charm I want, it don’t mean Gisele Bündchen is going to be interested. Sometimes in football, the best team wins no matter the strategy.
Now I know this post will be followed by about 100 comments of ‘well, just coz we used to be shit don’t mean we have to accept average’. Well, no. But it does mean we have to be realistic.
WE HAVE NO MONEY! In modern football, it’s as simple as that. We don’t score enough goals, our $5.5M striker is in bad form and we have to keep playing him.
- Spurs’ main complaint is their forward line, and they have Adebayor and Defoe.
- Arsenal too complain since RVP left, yet they have Walcott, Giroud and Podolski.
- Chelsea complain, yet have Ba, Torres and Moses (plus forward/wingers in Hazard and Mata and Lukaku out on loan).
- Man Utd have Rooney, RVP, Hernandez and Welbeck.
- Man City have Aguero, Tevez and Dzecko (they even let Balotelli go)
- Liverpool have Suarez and Sturridge.
- Everton have Jelavic and Anichebe.
How can the above be ignored by so many? In that list, there are two homegrown players. Welbeck and Anichebe, and the latter is the most prolific. Yet the reason we don’t score, according to some is due to a lack of desire, or fear or whatever else. It ain’t. It’s money. There isn’t one player who those other teams have that we wouldn’t take, yet at the same time we also couldn’t afford any of them.
I see in Everton’s team 3 players who would get into the teams above us: Jagielka, Fellaini and Baines. Maybe Mirallas at a push, but he’d be a squad player for the most part. Liverpool have four midfielders who cost the same or more than Fellaini, as do Spurs and all the rest. Imagine if Moyes could spend £15 million on three more midfielders? Of course, the ‘MOB’ would ridiculously claim he’d buy seven defenders with that (even though he bought Mirallas, but hey, ignore what doesn’t fit into the hypothesis, hey).
I do not think Moyes is a genius, nor the best manager in the world. But let’s have a bit of perspective here. No new manager is going to come in and suddenly Jelavic will turn into Aguero, or Coleman into Alaba, or Barkley into Gotze. We need money, yet, while we don’t have it, Moyes will keep us up there, with a chance. We’ll probably be disappointed with ‘missed chances’ come the end of the season, but that’s football.
Reader Comments (188)
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2 Posted 30/04/2013 at 04:02:28
However long term of course BK and his fellow 'luvvies' have to go but I think Everton ownership will have to be prised from his 'Cold dead hands'.
3 Posted 30/04/2013 at 06:22:34
4 Posted 30/04/2013 at 07:27:25
Someone 'recycling' an argument. I know you don't do irony but this from someone who constantly peddles the same argument ad nauseam.
Money is related to success, there is just to much evidence to make any other logical conclusion based on the data at hand, but then again logic is in the same category as irony where you are concerned.
As for David Moyes not improving the team with more money you may well be right. I suspect not but like the infinite monkey theory you will be eventually.
For me we need a change only because he has taken us as far as he can, that comes with risk but one I would be happy to take.
5 Posted 30/04/2013 at 08:02:10
Benteke cost £7m, we could have afforded him. At some point we could probably could have got Demba Ba too.....?
6 Posted 30/04/2013 at 08:22:21
Btw: "... our players get tired after 60 mins." WTF??!!
7 Posted 30/04/2013 at 08:36:17
8 Posted 30/04/2013 at 08:45:34
9 Posted 30/04/2013 at 08:49:59
If only we could have gone about Sunderland in the same manner as Villa did, we might still have a realistic chance of CL football, it's funny how they didn't look tired mentally or physically despite being at the wrong end of the table for most of the season, but I suppose younger players don't get as tired as their older colleagues.
10 Posted 30/04/2013 at 09:10:15
11 Posted 30/04/2013 at 09:18:51
12 Posted 30/04/2013 at 09:20:19
In post war football he was the only one!
13 Posted 30/04/2013 at 09:34:24
But in the cold light of a week day - it is of course right what you say about money.
There are loads of so called "aggressive" or seemingly positive managers around with not much cash :
8 th West Bromwich Albion
9
9th Swansea City
18 th Wigan Athletic
So I agree with your conclusion about Moyes
14 Posted 30/04/2013 at 09:51:55
What he's doing now is all we need to know.
We're all crying out for the club to be taken over, but if money isn't the issue - then for what reason do we desire it?
15 Posted 30/04/2013 at 10:07:04
A 'typical' ToffeeWebber's perpsective (I won't mention names, as I don't really need to) on the board:
'This board haven't invested a penny into this squad, they have no business acumen to develop the financial streams needed to progress this club. Without money, we are going to get relegated, go into administration. Their financial mis-management is holding us back, they should have spent money to re-develop Goodison, and we need MONEY, MONEY MONEY.'
The same persons view on Moyes:
'You don't need money! Wrexham beat Arsenal AND West Ham which shows its about desire!! Moyes out, bring in Brian Flynn'
16 Posted 30/04/2013 at 10:24:03
17 Posted 30/04/2013 at 10:31:13
A decent enough article but, yet again, an Evertonian making a lazy defence of David Moyes with the "no money" arguement. It's true, we don't have as much money as other clubs but some other clubs pay players five times more than we pay our top earners!
The money thing is correct but there are some exceptions to the rule. I quoted Borrusia Dortmund on another thread and we have Swansea in the Premier League. Arsenal have spent less than Everton in the past few years yet they will finish top 4 again this season. Arsenal have had thier squad torn apart in the last 3 to 4 years.
I am not saying money doesn't work as it obviously does but we need a managerial change for the good of the club. Under DM we have become predictable and boring, unfashionable and desperate to watch apart from the odd game here and there. Moyes doesn't help himself with his style of play and choice of player.
The whole Everton team are a characterless bunch of grafters — all quiet lads on the pitch with no real leaders. No "get stuck in" merchants at all. Moyes favours these types as they are easier to control. Moyes likes to bully and shout so the big stand-up confrontational players are shunned in favour of choirboys. Flair players frighten Moyes and are often shunned for a workhorse.
When you are quoting strikers at other clubs compared to ours, let me give you an example of how Moyes fucks up: 2004-05 season, we are fighting for a Champions League place. We need a striker desperately. At the time, Darren Bent was at Ipswich slamming goals for fun, Joe Royle was the manager and he offered DB to us for £2M. Also Dean Ashton, who at the time was on fire, we could've signed him for £2.5M — both these lads later went for massive sums.What did Moyes do? He signed Lard Arse James Beattie for £5.5M, played him up front on his own when we all knew he was a waste of space. James Beattie up front on his own in the Champions League... Come On!
Moyes is decent enough as you say but he continually makes the same mistakes and never learns from them. Moyes never deviates from his gameplan or tactics or style of play. We will never be attractive to buyers unless we up our profile. We won't attract fans back who have had enough of us playing the way we do. We need a change, we need freshening up. We need some passion and proper leadership. If you don't believe me, wait until after Sunday's Derby, then come back on here and tell me I am wrong.
18 Posted 30/04/2013 at 10:56:57
Most people seem to be saying that the board need to provide more money because ultimately money is the difference between winning trophies or not. No contradiction there.
On the other hand, I am one of the few who says that money is not such a big deal, or at least it's less decisive than it seems. However, I don't complain about the board. So, no contradiction there either.
It appears to me that you are tilting at windmills, Dan.
19 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:02:09
Having money is less 'decisive than it seems'. Well unfortunately the facts just don't back you up. There are six sides in the PL who have resources that far outweigh everyone else.
They can be further divided as mega rich Man U, Man C and Chelsea
And rich Arsenal, Tottenham and Liverpool
In the last nine seasons these teams have provided
Every PL winner ( from the mega rich bracket)
Every CL qualification ( other than us in 2004/5)
Every FA Cup winner bar Portsmouth
Looks pretty decisive to me.
20 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:14:00
I can only think of Allardyce who did something simular with Bolton for three very good seasons with little transfer kitty, though his wage bill was something astronomical with the likes of JJ Okocha, Anelka Hierro, Campo, Nakata and Djorkaef.
The difference between Wigan and 7th place in wages is about 30m. You've then got Spurs fully £17-18 million higher next up on the list, and the gaps increase expenentially from then on... all happen to be the teams above them... oh and Liverpool of course.
We can fuck up at Sunderland and its not a money issue, of course. But 4th only counts when the last game has been played.
21 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:23:37
22 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:20:55
I never fail to be amazed that some people on here are happy to repeat themselves ad infinitum. Well, there's no law against it but it bores me stiff. I've said what I wanted to say about money and football and I don't care to reprise the argument because you missed it the first time. If I go down that road then I'll have to repeat it again for somebody else tomorrow. This is what some people do, they say the same things again and again, causing the same old heard-it-all-a-million-times-before debates. Well, not me, Graham old chap.
If you're lucky/unlucky I might say it again one day, when I've forgotten what I said in the first place. Ha-ha! How's that for an incentive for staying tuned to TW?
23 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:18:54
Is it really?
Swansea, Wigan, Dortmund on one side QPR and Liverpool on the other - examples otherwise.
Money is one of many factors, it's become the route of least resistance to excuse Everton 0 Wigan 3 et al.
If we were in the USA I suspect we'd be at Waco with the other "Davidians".
24 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:08:38
25 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:30:08
I actually reckon he is paranoid that the open play is going to result in a drubbing at some point, depending on who is on the pitch. I don't think he trusts the midfield to defend/control, hence Fellaini goes back or Pip used to start. My guess is that he would like a good defensive midfielder above all things.
26 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:36:34
The main target the Board sets is to stay in the League first and foremost, then a top ten finish is seen as a relatively successful season. If we finish 6th/7th, that is over-achieving.
The Board have given him complete carte blanche over all footballing matters, and now we find ourselves in the strange position of a manager who has total control over his own destiny, and the future direction of the club.
I don't think Fergie could get away with this at Man U, so for David Moyes to wield so much power over our Board makes little sense, after all, the trophy cabinet is bare!
You would not find any other club in limbo like this with 3 games of the season to go, unless decisions have already been made we know nothing about.
27 Posted 30/04/2013 at 11:45:08
28 Posted 01/05/2013 at 03:57:14
"it's not a level playing field"
"you need a billionaire backer to compete"
"it's all about money, now"
"that was different era"
Nevertheless, mindful of what Kev Johnson correctly says about having to repeat the same arguments...
You don't need a billionaire to, e.g.
pass a ball 15 feet to a man in space, then run quickly into space;
run around a bit at throw-ins;
reduce the Alamo effect when defending corners by leaving a man (even 2) on the half-way line
A team can be trained, disciplined, coached to become greater than the individuals who comprise it
Cloughie and HKI managed to create great sides from cast-offs, bargains, waifs and strays combined with a superb man-management and coaching team
At times during the 11 years, by accident or design, an Everton team have been let off the leash and played with style, swagger, skill and intent - leaving me a bit like the poor sod in Bullseye "let's see what you could've won"
I personally think Moysie suffered some sort of trauma - which continues to stultify him - in the game at Newcastle all those years ago when we got stuffed going gung-ho with 6 forwards (hyperbole) on the pitch
29 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:18:38
30 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:25:13
31 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:24:48
One off cup games do sometimes throw up strange results, the same as some league games are a shock when the result is read. Who would have thought Villa would stuff the new flavour of the month manager 6-1?
Who honestly thought that Swansea would have beaten Chelsea over two legs?
32 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:20:57
I'm suprised that you sound suprised ("I don't think Fergie..."). You're probably not far wrong in assessing the Boards expectations each season so Moyes has "over-achieved" almost every season he's been here. This being the case it's perfectably understandable that Moyes wields so much power.
33 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:39:30
Overall this was one of the best reads i´ve had in ToffeeWeb for a long time. Well done, well written!
34 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:36:36
We really do not want to set up our football club to be so dependent on one man - it's not a healthy state of affairs.
Just look at how some posters are shaking with fear if Moyes decides to leave!
35 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:36:26
Never said it's simple - we all see the disparity between our bench and many of our rivals
The filthy rich have squads whereas we have team of, say, 14 capable players
Only a great manager could overcome such obstacles; I have hope and faith that one such exists, somewhere
Over a long season we can't compete with the wealth of talent available to City and Utd, even Chelsea - I accept that
The overwhelming reason for this is the inadequacy of the current Board and its failure to help the manager more
I still feel this current team could perform "better" and, if only Moyes could rid himself of the fear factor, we would win more points against teams who are "poorer" than us, if not in money, then quality of player
36 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:51:13
37 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:52:35
What we have to remember is that this is a small squad and we are limited in our starting XI; even if we made Europe, look what happens to most teams that get there:
1. Their league form suffers, and
2. They struggle in Europe (the result of small squads or not enough class players).
I get frustrated by our play at times but we have to remember we don't pick the team, we don't know the players and their strengths and we don't know what the manager has in mind for each game. I for one think that Moyes has done a great job and I genuinely believe there is more to be done here (on whatever budget that he gets).
COYB
38 Posted 30/04/2013 at 12:59:08
1) How many established managers have actually improved their teams with barely any net spend? (Wenger's Arsenal have perhaps come nearest...but they have declined rapidly from the glory days and have a wage budget which is over twice as high as ours).
2) How much money have we had to pay in compensation for sacked managers, or to bring others to our club?
Liverpool were reported to have paid 9.5million in compensation to Dalglish and his staff following sacking...Spurs were reported to have paid Redknapp 3million on departure, not to mention the millions likely paid to Portsmouth in compensation initially...how many tens of millions have Chelski paid out over the years? The sun reported not so long, a figure approaching 70million for Chelski's managerial merry-go-round. Moyes length of tenure...his sustained managerial success, is worth 4million a year...when managers like Dalglish can come into one of the biggest teams in the world, and waste near on 100million on over-priced players, and then leave with millions in his pockets.
39 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:03:37
No it isn't. Compared to the Barcelonas, Real Madrids and Bayern Munichs of this world, Borussia Dortmund are possibly the financial equivalent of us.
Their leading striker, Lewandowski, was bought for £4m, and they could sell him in the summer for over 8 times that amount.
Money has not been a problem for Dortmund and have just humiliated a football powerhouse Real Madrid 4-1 in the Semi of the CL.
They don't moan, "vw haff no money" do they?
Klopp is a very ambitious manager and he is the reason why Dortmund are now a leading team in Europe.
If Moyes had some balls and the fans more ambition and less excuses, we would have won something by now.
Bradford City have had to build a first 11 from ZERO money, and got to the League Cup final.
People say "what can Moyes do with money, oh we'll get in the top 4" etc arguement, Moyes will never change his philosophy if he has £1m to spend or £1billion.
Moyes will always continue to be the same cautious, negative, bottling failure no matter how much he gets to spend.
40 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:12:54
You're not still falling for that "Goodison will fail the safety certificate" lie are you? (sarcasm font)
41 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:08:31
It's not Moyes who needs changing... it's the board. If we had even the spending power of Stoke, I expect we would have had witnessed Champ League football at Goodison. Even this season, when we were in a real battle for Champions League, the board were not able/willing to bankroll an attempt. If we had spent 20-30million...what are the chances of having that extra 3-6 points that would have 3rd or fourth now?
42 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:18:45
And do you not see the stupidity in comparing us to German football? Do you have any understanding as to why Germany have produced so many youngsters? because of governmental money. They invested tens of millions into young infrastructure 10-15 years ago...and we never did. That's why German football is roaring, whilst English football is spluttering.
And you mention German football.... which team won the Bundesliga, breaking records in the process this season? Yet again... the team which spent the most. And which two teams will rest 1 and 2 in Spain...the teams which spend the most. Borussia are wonderful example of a well-run football club... but they are being pulled apart by richer teams, and their success, in a financial football world, will be transient.
43 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:11:44
That's credit to Moyes. It's his team. It's also, on occasion, his downfall as he doesn't effectively use the resources at his disposal.
44 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:25:29
A look through their team sheet shows that they are not in anyway put together on a shoe-string budget.
What have we got to do with them anyway?
45 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:37:25
There are huge areas that Moyes could up his game on. For one his blind faith in persisting with certain players who are clearly badly out of form! After Barkley's impressive display at Arsenal he is dropped and Osman straight back in who then proceeds to stick the place out at Sunderland and we lose. Hardly tactically impressive.
46 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:33:44
Lets also ignore the vast amount of money pumped into youth development by the German FA:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/soccer/world-cup-2010/writers/raphael_honigstein/07/01/germany.reinvention/index.html
I have often been accused of 'strawman' arguments, but this Dortmund one is by far the most ridiculous. Why has also nobody mentioned Jurgen Klopp's salary being nearly double that of Moyes?
47 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:48:57
When we put our first 11 up against Manure's and it's Jelavic v Van Persie...it's not so much a gap as a yawning chasm. That's probably why you don't see it.
48 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:42:08
"Borussia Dortmund are possibly the financial equivalent of us."
Would not wish to decry the achievements of Dortmund but let us put this little fallacy to bed
Reported revenue 2011/12
Dortmund €189.1m (11th)
Everton €99.5 (26th)
So not even close really. In financial terms they are more the equivalent of Juventus (10th) or Inter (12th)
They are undoubtedly over performing based on finding and developing a great squad of players but let us not pretend they are some sort of footballing minnow.
49 Posted 30/04/2013 at 13:49:16
Sadly those that don't get the no money reality by this stage just won't ever get it. Better strikers cost big cash and we just don't have any.
Sure, Moyes has his shortcomings and doesn't always play an open attacking passing game a la Martinez. He's no cup manager and that's for sure. But his team built on a shoe string have overperformed again. Lack of good striking & attacking midfield options cost us again; and they'll likely do so again next year.
Would anyone in their right mind swap with Martinez and Wigan?
Until the board can come up with some wonga (and the amount of cash they generate is a joke - Kenwright really has something to answer for here) Moyes is the best we can hope for.
50 Posted 30/04/2013 at 14:00:40
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/real-madrid-v-borussia-dortmund-europes-balance-of-power-tipping-towards-a-german-bundesliga-thats-expert-in-balancing-books-8595644.html
Player salaries are a hell of a lot less over there, which means the clubs have more to play with, and can (in fact, must) invest in youth development. Plus, ticket prices are a lot lower, which means attendances are high. They did indeed invest a lot of money into youth development ten years or so ago, but I am not aware that was government investment. It came from the German FA. Anyway, I'm sure the link above will explain it better than I can.
51 Posted 30/04/2013 at 14:14:21
Agreed German football operates on a much more sustainable footing than either of the other three big leagues. Lower wages, lower ticket prices.
But that only widens the gap between us and Dortmund from a financial perspective with EBITDA of c.€50m, a number we could only dream of.
Dan #019 makes a really great point. A lot of the current German success is based on a coherent unified approach by the German FA in investing in the development of young German players. This country is about 10 years behind in doing something similair.
52 Posted 30/04/2013 at 14:32:19
53 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:19:21
The Premier League is the most commercial in the world and its success is based on other things that don't include improving the grass roots.
I know there's that St George's Park thing, but what is one complex compared to literally thousands of pro-licensed coaches in Spain... at least that's what I heard.
54 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:19:16
And regarding the converse - i.e. the need to have money in order to win the league - why is it you have to go back to Leeds under Howard Wilkinson to find the last time a club without significant riches won the English title? And please don't talk about cups, the League Cup especially, ever since football began relative 'minnows' have turned over big clubs and produced shock results. While I'm disappointed we went out to Wigan at home this year, I'm not as disappointed as I was two seasons ago after we'd overcome Chelsea, away from home in a replay a.e.t., only to then go out to Reading, at home in the 5th round.
55 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:26:31
Earlier in the thread we had Barry Rathbone claiming that Wigan prove you don't need money whilst completely ignoring the fact that Wigan have a very good chance of being relegated this season.
56 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:39:34
WITHOUT mentioning the outperformed on a low budget and worked with financial constraints and got us consistently in the top 6 and financially beneficial for the club cliches, what other reasons do you have for keeping DM?
57 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:43:27
58 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:46:44
What other reasons can you suggest for keeping Moyes, as he is past his sell by date.
59 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:55:11
60 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:57:44
You have casually dismissed Young, Collins, Vernon, Ball, Latchford, Kay, Kendall, Wilson, Labone, Southalll and many others... Tut, Tut!!!
61 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:50:52
It doesn't sway, but neither is it put up when you lose to the bottom of the table team, but then so do Man Utd on occasion.
With Moyes we're guaranteed a European challenge, when our resources shouldn't guarantee anything.
You know for sure when each season kicks off where the club will be. Not because we're Everton blah blah because it was proved with many managers before him that history doesn't put points on the table.
We have a guy, with next to nothing (I keep saying this but I'll do so again - no purchases in 5 of the last 7 windows, zero et spend in the other two) can keep up with teams who can pick and choose their players and have better benches than we have first teamers.
We can all look to his faults and say why he do that, why he do this... the same goes for every manager and club above us - really. Utd fans I know question SAF on his selection as much as we question Moyes. And every club above has games akin to Norwich etc.
The chances that the next manager can equal what Moyes does is slim because even you Ross have to appreciate he pushes us above what we would normally expect. If you don't think so, where are the other clubs who compete as high up the league and threaten to take Europe?
Of course someone can come in and do better, but would you for example get shot of Baines and replace him on the same belief?
The football isn't the hoof of some seasons ago and is actually better than all but 6 teams in the league. If he happens to be 'cautious' then that's his style. Arsenal fans revere Graham as much as Wegner.
Wouldn't it be great if he had squad additions where he could actually bring on Baines. Or bring on Mirallas. Fellaini. Not just to rest, but because there were equal talents in the squad who deserved playing time. But he doesn't and we're still in with a shout of CL football... still.
Passed his sell by date? Rubbish, based on what?
62 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:54:55
63 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:04:42
Everyone bar the top 7, as it stands, has the potential to go down at the start of each season.
We'd be back in that pack. Then without the possibility of Europe or CL which is where our top players look to get, they will want to leave.
Now, how do you go about replacing them with equal talent coming to a club who - one don't have the wages to offer - and two don't have a transfer kitty and are stuck to the banks?
The next manager of this club will be BK's biggest and most crucial decision.
64 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:07:20
Nick
Moyes cocked up our chance of CL by losing to Sunderland, Norwich, Reading and dropping points to Fulham. Yet he never seems to learn and makes the same mistakes he has made for 11 years.
Why is he past his sell by date? He has been here with his unambition and his cushy salery for 11 years ago now, and along with BK, is hanging around like a bad smell.
His motto is consistency and BK is happy with that. I am more ambitious and I think a change is beneficial for next season, as Moyes has brought predictability to the club, with subs, pre and most match comments, tactics, love ins with Bill all being the same for 11 years.
Every manager has to leave some time and I want a new man here next season, with fresh ideas and methods and a new way of doing things possibly working next season.
Of course you are going to say that this is rubbish, as you Doddists are scared of change aren't you?
65 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:05:54
I agree with you, we are getting better each year; we cannot let Moyes go, we cannot take the chance that another manager can do any better than what Moyes is doing with this board that run our club.
Yes and money has got everything to do with it. Some on here mentioned Wigan — where are they in the league, FFS? And Bradford got a mention too FFS — what league are they in?
Anyone can have a good cup run, you just need a bit of luck... but staying in the Prem or getting in the top six is another matter.
66 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:14:46
Arsenal and Spurs and Chelsea have all had their horrors this season... it has always happened in football. Yes he drops back, I don't understand why when it back fires often... but you're wanting rid on that basis?
You can't look at the table and tell me that's where you expect the club should be under any tom dock of harry manager. We're pushing to the max and you think well that isn't good enough because we dropped some points - off with his head.
67 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:06:48
Remind me how much we spent when we finished 4th ?
68 Posted 30/04/2013 at 15:43:09
69 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:22:08
"we're still in with a shout of CL football"
Meanwhile, back in reality....
70 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:23:15
We should rename the Moyesists and call them "The Doom Squad". Honestly, Doddy saying we could finish 17th the minute Moyes leaves, you John saying hello championship. Goodness me.
Moyes has come and will go, but there will always be an Everton, we are not Moyes FC, but Everton.
Moyes isn't the be all and end all of this football club.
71 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:20:49
72 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:22:15
73 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:28:57
AVB claims one point from Wigan all season, sack him too? He should have Spurs in 3rd had they done what they should have done and coasted to victory.
Shall we go back to Arsenal's poor form earlier in the season and sack Wegner should they get over taken? Are we supposed to go all Abramovic?
74 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:25:26
75 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:35:53
76 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:36:11
Sky Sports reported on October 14th 2008
Everton manager David Moyes has signed a new five-year contract at Goodison Park
Moyes has been in talks with the club over an extension for some time but he has finally
put pen to paper on a new deal.
The Scot, who took charge on Merseyside in March 2002, had admitted that the uncertainty
over his future was affecting his side's start to the season.
It must have been backdated to the summer of 2008 otherwise his contract wouldn't be up until October this year. Just a thought.
77 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:38:07
78 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:38:17
If BK was a proper fan he would have sacked him after Wigan, but he isn't, he is an unambitious, idiot who should be kicked out of town along with his lackeys and his lover Moyes.
79 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:40:30
80 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:37:51
81 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:29:44
I don't think I qualify as a 'Moyesist' unless of course disagreeing with the vitriol and bile against a manager who has improved our team over 11 years into a consistently competitive team,puts me in that camp.
So the reason for keeping DM is that you will ( in all likelihood) maintain that position. For me that is not enough, I suspect he has taken us as far as he can and for that I think he deserves credit.
If we are serious of making a breakthrough without an injection of cash ( which I don't think anyone thinks is likely in the near future) we need a fresh perspective and a new approach.
That comes with a definite risk, it may actually take us backwards, nobody knows. But if the alternative is 5 more years of finishing 6th, 7th or 8th then I would be happy with the risk.
Of course it is all a bit of a moot point because the only person who will decide if David Moyes leaves Everton is David Moyes himself.
82 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:28:38
Ross, you're precious.
So, your wish appears to be coming true here in the next few weeks. Who in, then, Ross? Who is this ambitious manager come to move us up?
And no qualifying your selection with "cliches'. Who is this manager to take us home?
83 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:43:52
You have the tactical ability of a goldfish with the charisma of an Emu.
No wonder we switch off after HT in every game, with Moyessending them off to sleep for15 minutes.
His tendencies to make a sub with a game already lost is ludicrous, and his willingness to put on Naismith on every match is quite honestly disturbing and sums up his ineptitude and tactical awareness.
84 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:47:05
85 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:48:34
I think Poyet, Zola or Martinez will move us up. Attack mindedness anf tactical awareness wins you things, feared caution and ineptitude doesn't.
I would have suggested Rijkaard but Kim Jong Bill is too stupid to even pronounce his name correctly.
86 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:51:46
The board and him are hanging around like a bad smell and we need the Fabreze of a new manager to freshen things up here.
87 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:51:34
88 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:53:43
89 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:49:17
90 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:54:28
91 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:39:10
92 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:59:13
93 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:53:45
94 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:03:06
Fair enough, you defend DM, I'll attack him in a ridiculous way.
95 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:07:01
Here's a question. Would you sack any of AVB, Rodgers or Wegner?
And reasons for your answers if you may.
96 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:59:32
Ultimately none of the above happened, we're likely to finish 6th and lose our star players and manager in the summer.
97 Posted 30/04/2013 at 16:44:17
98 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:09:39
AVB- No, its the guy's first season at Spurs and has done very well, although relying on Bale too much could cost him next season if he leaves or gets injured. I really think that Spurs could win the PL next season if they make the right signings in the summer.
Brenda- Yes, if he loses on Sunday!
Wenger- Yes- 8 years without winning anything with Arsenal is unacceptable and he should be sacked.
99 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:13:02
What did Moyes add when he replaced Wally 11 years ago? Apply that to the new man. You will get a new way of doing things, new methods, possible attacking football if it is Poyet or Zola and it would give us all a lift if it was a big name like Zola.
I know you want him to sign, but a change might be refreshing to us all.
100 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:17:40
Suggesting it would have been better without Jelavic stunning form when he first came is nut-job territory.
A new man might get Jelavic firing again - according to you CL is in our grasp with such a striker on that basis Moyes needs to go.
101 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:06:11
We have taken a lot of points of the so called moneyed teams but failed miserably against lesser teams at home when he could have been more adventurous.
If we was a million miles away from top four then fair enough but we wasn't and I certainly believe his tactics held us back when I would have liked to see him show some balls and go for it a bit earlier than the man city home game.
102 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:26:31
103 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:34:26
104 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:28:47
A change now is not necessary as we would be faced with a gamble again, with the potential to move up 1 maybe 2 places in the league, or alternatively 12 (given budgets).
I am not a complete Moyes fan who thinks that he does no wrong. There are times where he baffles me but I think we stand a better chance with him learning rather than a complete overhaul. He has been slow to learn lessons in the past, but you would have to be an absolute idiot not to recognise that the football played this year is leagues ahead of the early couple of years.
105 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:21:59
106 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:39:50
107 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:54:07
108 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:40:55
Players have signed for Everton despite interest from bigger clubs because of Moyes.
With one exception no player has left Everton and improved.
109 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:58:33
110 Posted 30/04/2013 at 18:14:47
111 Posted 30/04/2013 at 17:53:55
Fran, all you've ever known - Moyes era apart - is shite. Its not entirely surprising you hold the views you do.
Our money situation I'd argue is probably worse than when Moyes took over, contrary to what you said. The club is now fully loaded with debt, has few assets and no ability to borrow further(thank fuck). Our playing staff is probably of better quality, however.
Unfortunately we have a manager who despite the stability afforded to him refuses to develop his young/fringe players or rotate our squad unless his hand is forced. His only plan to take the club to the next level involves the club spending more money than we have....and that is not a vision I buy into.
If you offered me Moyes or Mark Hughes or Walter Smith I'd take Moyes every time. However not every manager is shit. There are some upcoming coaches who do a lot with less well off clubs, we've seen Laudrup and Adkins do well and I'm sure there are loads more at home and abroad who could do a better job than Moyes given some stability.
Moyes does ok in terms of league place finishes; not many would do any better, but league placing is not the sole measurement of success. I also measure success in terms of financial stability of the club. We won't get more competitive by holding onto players like Naismith, Neville and Heitinga who are big earners and contribute little.
We won't be able to compete with the 5 or 6 teams above us by ignoring our youth players and failing to give them any playing time for 2 years because they played shit once in a game which we lost or gave away a goal.
Players like Fellaini(who I'm a big fan of) need to be sold for a good profit and replaced with cheaper alternatives(the same as we did with rooney/lescott/arteta). If you offered me an expensive ageing Arteta or a younger, cheaper Mirallas who has the ability to significantly improve, I know which I'd take. I think I'd not be alone in that viewpoint.
Would I take a young, hungry, cheaper Seamus Coleman over the established Neville or Hibbert? Of course. Same with Duffy and Heitinga or Barkley and Naismith. Yes there will be mistakes and dropped points, but longer term the club will be better for it.
Of all our young players, only Coleman has been given sufficient opportunity to develop in the first team...and I suspect if hibbert had stayed fit we'd still be arguing here, today, whether Coleman should be given a run at RB to see if he has what it takes.
112 Posted 30/04/2013 at 18:32:52
113 Posted 30/04/2013 at 18:36:52
114 Posted 30/04/2013 at 18:44:07
115 Posted 30/04/2013 at 18:45:22
116 Posted 30/04/2013 at 18:50:12
Full credit to David Moyes for assembling a good squad. The performances against Arsenal, Spurs, Man u at home and City are down to Moyes. Apparently the dropped points against lesser teams are well, one of those things that just happen. No blame to the coach, just the player apologists not quite getting it.
117 Posted 30/04/2013 at 19:01:25
118 Posted 30/04/2013 at 19:24:12
Really is that how you see it? I honestly don't get a sense that when we win people are queing up on here to praise Moyes. Normally the focus is on which players people felt played particularly well. Ok you might get a few praising the manager but thats to be expected surely...especially given the opposing views expressed on this site?. When we batter the Shite I'm gonna collate the responses and I'll share the findings in due course
119 Posted 30/04/2013 at 19:19:50
1. Martinez
2. AVB
Martinez, I don't think needs discussion. But AVB? Lost the locker room at his first chance and was fired. Hasn't done any better than Rednapp with his second. And if Bale didn't go on that fantastic scoring run of his, Spurs would be mid-table. Unless, of course, AVB "coached" all those terrific goals into Bales.
I want Moyes to stay but it appears he's going. However badly they've run the Club they own, our vampires did get it right signing Moyes. I'm for a Soleskjaer (particularly) or someone like that. Just not someone selected from the usual media suspects.
Especially not fucking Martinez.
120 Posted 30/04/2013 at 19:24:16
How on earth can anyone seriously say that Adkins has "done well" but Moyes has merely "done OK in terms of league finishes" Can't quite get the logic there.
As with other posters I've yet to see any convincing, objective arguments that support the notion that Moyes hasn't done a great job at Everton.
Yes we can all point to games that we should have won ( that mustn't happen to other managers then?) and people can cluster teams and claim that because our results against them are poor then that must mean blah, blah.
The real stats - points, league finishes, money spent, transfers made etc will all tell the same story. Everton with Moyes at the helm have constantly (apart from one season) exceeded expectations.
I've deliberately used the "expectations" word here because I'm not sure what people really do expect. I've been watching EFC since the mid 60's and apart from that decade, a very brief spell in the mid 70's and 4 years in the 80's we have been absolutely rubbish. More importantly, for most of those years, unlike Moyes reign, we could financially compete and the fact that we didn't should register far more loudly with people than our current situation.
So although we have only won the league 4 times in 53 years and the FA cup 3 times in the same period, Moyes is lambasted for not winning something in 11 years during the one period when we clearly cannot financially compete with a number of our competitors.
121 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:04:43
122 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:10:20
If we had all just shrugged and got on with it after that Wigan disaster, do you think we would have seen that performance against City?
We are one of the best supported clubs in this League, and we back our team, that also gives us every right to let them know when they slip below the expected levels of performance.
123 Posted 30/04/2013 at 19:57:56
Your attendance figures for Dortmund: care to take a stab at the season ticket prices for the Bundesliga compared to the EPL... and even the cheaper options such as Everton? I'll give you a clue, you can get a season ticket for Bayern Munich for £95; my season ticket in the Park End is over £600...
So, being generous and saying the average season ticket at Goodison is say only £300 (we know it's a good mix but for ignorance and argument sake say £300) you get one third of the attendance advance payment of a Bundesliga season ticket — 3 German season tickets = 1 in the EPL at Goodison Park. So an attendance of 30,000 is equivalent to 90,000 at a German game... again, looks a bit poorer now.
The spending of £17M on Reus well a little trick you tried again Dan, £17M isn't €17.1M which is the published fee again. A better-ran business can afford these fees but do you know if it was all up front or spread over a few years? €17.1M Euros is just under £14.5M.
A season ticket for Dortmund cost €187 or €225 if you wanted the three Champions League games thrown in, that's £158 or £190 for the Champions League games too. Their most expensive season ticket is £580 — ours go from £469 to £695.70 — and that's just the seat with no bangs and whistles lounge ones.
124 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:23:16
All very good but I'm not sure how any of that makes any difference to the fact Dortmund's revenues are twice that of ours. They are the 11th biggest team in Europe and the second biggest in the Bundesliga.
Dan's post was just pointing out to try and compare the two teams on a financial footing, as an earlier post did, is clearly nonsense.
125 Posted 30/04/2013 at 19:46:11
As long as it's not any of the "usual suspects".
126 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:31:27
127 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:33:31
Hate he's leaving, but it does appear Moyes is. I've posted for Solskjaer in.
Who you?
I ask because it seems to me the conversation should center there. Who next?
128 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:30:40
The board has mortgaged future revenue to give Davey the funds to buy, just in case he resigns in protest. As such we are +-200kp/w down, example Fella on hire purchase plus large wage with incentives. We could sell for what we paid and still be in arrears.
Lack of willingness by board to invest or to sell until the sugar daddy comes in and flys them all to Disneyland and gives them 120m for a knackered stadium and one used Osman.
Lack of belief by current squad due to manager always whinging about lack of money to continue to pay premier makeweights 50k p/w whilst gambling on imports at inflated prices instead of gambling on youth whilst denigrating those he has, like telling Mirallis he is no good for the premier because he gets tired, unlike the rest.
Word to Baines, it matters.
129 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:47:34
130 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:45:40
Moyes has had 11 years of stability(something which most premier league managers would give their right arm for) and has established us about 10 places higher than we were often finishing when he joined.
I know which I find most impressive.
131 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:55:38
"But why should we as supporters have to name who gets the job. We have absolutely no chance at all of being listened to so it an exercise in total futility".
I'm just interested, given your Predictable rants against DM, as to who you would have instead of DM. Of course, EFC won't listen to you (but then who does!! - as you say, "We have absolutely no chance at all of being listened to so it an exercise in total futility").
Your Stalker!
132 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:58:35
I have to ask how you came to the '+-200k Pw' figure?
133 Posted 30/04/2013 at 20:22:52
Moyes has wasted money mainly on strikers in the past, why on earth did he invest in shite like Beattie and Johnson. A combined fee of 14M on those two, he would have been better scouring Europe and getting someone proven for that amount of money. I don't think the likes of Benteke or Ba would have been a success at Everton. Moyes would simply burn them out and make them run through the channel chasing lost balls. I very much have wanted Moyes to learn from mistakes season after season and improve as a manager, but I just don't see it happening. If only he changed his ways!
134 Posted 30/04/2013 at 21:34:50
That would be the same Johnson and Beattie who when we sold them recouped the £14m we spent.
I know there are some who like to use any stick to beat Moyes but even his most ardent detractors would have to admit than he has performed well in this area. Nobody gets them all right you just have to get more right than wrong.
135 Posted 30/04/2013 at 21:48:52
This is the reason why we've not seen those fringe players much if at all. To be fair, we may not be in 6th place if he had played them more, but personally I think the development of the 4 or 5 fringe players we have is worth a place or two in the league.
136 Posted 30/04/2013 at 21:57:09
He said this when? Particularly, "even if those first 11 tire and we lose games as a result". Please refer us to that quote.
137 Posted 30/04/2013 at 21:47:57
I work with financial models, look at the statements of income/expenditure/wages/ money down payments etc going back to Yakubu (and if you are bored, back to Walter). Fellaini and Billy were both bought on HP, having borrowed the money from venture off future earnings (double interest whammy). The reason we are getting our money now from offshore is not because the board are greasing their pockets (though I am sure they are not struggling to pay their M&S bill) but because our credit rating is junk, too much debt, not enough asset. The figure is roughly payments owed for players bought plus payments owed for sums borrowed for players bought, etc, etc, etc
138 Posted 30/04/2013 at 21:57:47
139 Posted 30/04/2013 at 21:59:25
140 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:05:36
141 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:13:50
Please indulge me then. How do you get to your figure?
142 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:00:57
Stop talking bollocks! Moyes never said that. All the regular first team players, played just as bad as the youngsters and fringe players that night. I think the likes of Junior, Barkey and Oviedo could've offered us a lot more than Naismith and Neville have this season.
143 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:16:11
We made £2m on Johnson and lost £2m on Beattie. Kunai's point was intimating we had wasted £14m when in fact we lost nothing on the deals.
I would certainly accept however that Moyes has not been as successful in unearthing a quality striker as he has with midfield players and defenders. Maybe that says a little about him!
144 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:33:24
Okay, we can discard Rooney, because he was young and moved on very quickly. Ferguson was a big favourite here, but his goal scoring record was very poor.
A quality striker is a must this summer, if we want to challenge for trophies or top 4 next season
145 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:49:28
146 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:58:31
[Latest whisper from Finch Farm source today.]
147 Posted 30/04/2013 at 22:04:41
Let's see how that plays out.
148 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:07:32
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2013/04/27/david-Moyes-prepared-to-push-his-everton-fc-players-to-their-limits-100252-33244184/
I think you owe Wayne an apology, Mark.
149 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:08:59
150 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:08:16
151 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:12:46
I'd add, Moyes didn't intend it the way it suited Wayne to have a go at him.
Also add, had no problem with what Moyes said. Unless, of course, the spoiled modern footballer isn't spoiled. I'll take Moyes' approach. But I'm an old fellow.
152 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:16:07
153 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:19:43
The thing to win is the Prem. Or what's the point of the 38 games? Moyes has taken a club happened to be named Everton as far as a manager can without at least some investment. Form holds, none's coming.
I'm sorry he's leaving, but Laudrup, Sloskjaer, or whoever, is going to get us witnessing the league trophy lifted at Goodison only with more money invested.
And Moyes or whoever, it seems to me we don't need all that much more invested to grab the crown.
A real pity.
154 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:46:29
As to, "You were saying, James?". Kev, you're a fucking genius. That's what I'm saying. Can't provide a link, mind.
155 Posted 30/04/2013 at 23:52:04
I don't think Wayne did twist it. Except - as I said @ 250 - DM didn't say "even if we lose". It's an odd interview, whichever way you cut it. It says something about the man. As to exactly what it says, that is open to interpretation.
As for the link proving I'm a fucking genius, I've been looking for it all my life, mate. Still haven't managed to track it down...
156 Posted 01/05/2013 at 00:03:46
Plus, my expertise is well known and respected at . . . . oh, have to find that link. I'll get back to you.
157 Posted 01/05/2013 at 00:59:11
158 Posted 01/05/2013 at 04:28:42
The man is a billionaire and has money to play with. On talksport it was suggested he may look for another club. From what Usmanov has said he wants to own a club and make them successful. I know its a long shot but wouldn't it be great if he picked Everton?
159 Posted 01/05/2013 at 04:34:54
Does this make Klopp negative? They ended up winning, bit it as squeaky bum for a while there.
Considering following my article before people identified the difference between Moyes and Klopp as reasonable comparison. Despite the fact they havê German players coming through the ranks plus more money.
Just a quick question: is Klopp negative considering the tactical change he made today?
160 Posted 01/05/2013 at 05:51:48
161 Posted 01/05/2013 at 07:16:00
162 Posted 01/05/2013 at 07:46:13
163 Posted 01/05/2013 at 08:47:36
One thing that is agreed upon is the need for a new, effective striker. If still under Moyes then this needs to be someone who can run the channels, hold the ball up but still get 15+ goals a season. Not many of those around! Lukaku obviously looks good but I would be very surprised if Chelsea were to sell on such a promising youngster. Benteke is another who now looks like he may stay at Villa for another season. Any other rapid, large, Belgian goalscorers out there?
For now, i'd be interested to see Barkley playing behind Anichebe. Have a feeling those two together might cause a few problems and get a few goals.
164 Posted 01/05/2013 at 15:05:04
165 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:40:32
The other two did result in dropped points - against City and Real in the group stages - so it may be a theme.
166 Posted 01/05/2013 at 17:37:16
"After we were out the cup I wasn’t going to take the risk any more. If we fail because we run out of legs, then so be it"
So I read that as:
---------
He'll play the usual suspects as much as possible (as we've witnessed) and if we fail (lose games) because they're too tired, then so be it.
The (fringe) players who were given a chance at Leeds (Barkley/Oviedo/Junior etc), will not be given much further opportunity.
---------
The slight exception is Barkley who has started to be given game time in the last few weeks, but has spent the vast majority of the last 2 years relegated to the reserves because of a few bad performances.
The problem I have is that Mark Frere (240) called it out perfectly. When we played Leeds and lost, all our players were shit, not just a handful of inexperienced players. Players like Heitinga, Neville and Naismith are regularly shit when they play and are not going to improve and they are expensive to keep on the books, yet they consistently chosen ahead of our other younger less experienced players....even in games we're comfortably winning.
In case you missed it, we're skint. To compete and secure our future we need to start bringing more players through the youth setup into the first team and give them chance to improve, rather than expect to go out and spend £10M on ready-made replacements earning £50k/week.
167 Posted 01/05/2013 at 23:03:30
You still twisted them to suit yourself.
Now what?
168 Posted 02/05/2013 at 07:24:44
1. the 50+1 ownership policy prevent dominance of rich clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City, so Dortmund has more chance to finish top and get more exposure.
2. German FA spend a lot for youth player development, so Dortmund can get good young players with a relatively low cost.
3. Dortmund is very rich now. But in the 1st year of Dortmund with Klopp as manager, they have a very low budget at that time:
08-09: Transfer revenue: £10,824,.000 - Transfer expenditures: £12,100,000 = £-1.276.000
09-10: Transfer revenue: £5,588,000 - Transfer expenditures: £9,592,000 = £-4,004,000
4. Klopp is a very good manager, in terms of working with low budget, and football tactics, and is better than Moyes. But Moyes is also a very good manager, and is among the best managers in the world who works well with low budget.
5. So can we be as successful as Dortmund by changing a manager? Yes, but the chance is very low (<10%) and the chance that we would fall back to mid-table is high (~50%).
169 Posted 02/05/2013 at 10:08:24
171 Posted 02/05/2013 at 11:25:49
One of the biggest gripes this season has been the number of easy chances that our strikers and midfielders have spurned. Those chances wouldn't have arrived 11years ago, we are very close now, it just needs someone to start putting the chances away.
172 Posted 02/05/2013 at 12:11:43
173 Posted 02/05/2013 at 12:37:44
174 Posted 02/05/2013 at 13:02:32
But surely, he must be aware of the trauma of the dreadful showing in last years' semi?
Whether he has leaned fom it or not and whether he realises it or not, Sunday's derby is his Wimbledon - his chance to demonstrate to fans like me that we were wrong to doubt him and then tell all us doubters, whingers, moaners, 60s and 80s unrealistists to shove it
Up to you, manager, to prepare and motivate the team and react, as necessary, to however the game is panning out
175 Posted 02/05/2013 at 13:11:38
Every single time the pressure is really on, he falls short by trying to play it too safe. I wouldn't be surprised if he went for 'experience' on Sunday, and brought Hibbert and Neville back into the team.
176 Posted 02/05/2013 at 13:21:20
Quite right as well. Ignore the gripes of the Moyesists. They just don't like to hear the bad side of DM.
Can the Moyesists tell me the last time we scored 4 or 5 in the PL?
The last one I can remember was Hull 3 years ago.
177 Posted 02/05/2013 at 14:03:40
178 Posted 02/05/2013 at 14:00:24
Is that alright Ross?
179 Posted 02/05/2013 at 14:13:02
180 Posted 02/05/2013 at 15:04:55
181 Posted 02/05/2013 at 16:12:15
182 Posted 02/05/2013 at 16:04:26
"The next few years saw a steady decline in Dortmund’s fortunes plagued by poor financial management that led to the club becoming steeped in debt. It forced the sale of their Westfalenstadion ground to try and pay off some of that debt. €2 million was loaned from Bayern Munich in order to pay off the players’ wages for a couple of months in 2003.
Part of the reason for their stadium being called the ‘Signal Iduna Park’ is the sponsorship agreement the signed with a local insurance company in an attempt to arrest rising debt.
2005-2008 caused more angst to Dortmund fans. Top players such as Tomas Rosicky, David Odonkor and Christoph Metzelder all exited and in the 2006-07 season the team teetered perilously close to relegation."
Granted their model now is one to envy.
183 Posted 02/05/2013 at 16:22:47
How so? You asked a Moyesist to tell you the last time we scored 4 or 5 so I did. I don't know if I fit the profile but I thought I'd give it a go.
Feel free to reply using the force, Jedi Edwards.
184 Posted 02/05/2013 at 17:22:01
185 Posted 02/05/2013 at 17:20:20
I've already said that I believe Moyes statement is an admission that he was actively sidelining the fringe players at the club after we lost at Leeds. He's admitted in his statement that this strategy could well result in us losing games because players are tired and that even in that case he won't give the fringe players another chance.
I think you'll find that this is almost entirely what has panned out over the season and explains why for virtually the entire season we've seen the same old faces time after time, with younger, less experienced players being given virtually no 1st team action.
What I'd like to know is what are your opinions on his statement and where do you differ from my reading of it?
I know its strange to want to discuss things on a discussion forum, but humor me, please.
186 Posted 02/05/2013 at 19:20:28
187 Posted 02/05/2013 at 19:48:16
"Why has also nobody mentioned Jurgen Klopp's salary being nearly double that of Moyes? "
Er, is it? Unless he has signed a new improved deal in the last year, which he hasn't to my knowledge.
From March last year the top 30 managers earnings had Moyes in 12th on £2.9m and Klopp was in 25th with earnings of £1.8m.
But, as I say, he might have signed a new deal since then.
188 Posted 03/05/2013 at 15:44:46
My answer, however weak, is that by the time I'd gotten to your post, I'd read so many dunderheaded posts, that I was reading thru a negative lens.
I've gone back and re-read your posting calmly and see what you were getting at. No "twisting".
Apologies.
189 Posted 03/05/2013 at 22:14:19
He has become much more demanding. When fans favourites Mirallas and Gibson pull out of tackles or don't put in a full shift, his condemnation is hard and swift. Notice how he doesn't say Gibson needs surgery. He states "Gibson says he needs surgery". A mighty difference.
Jelavic has been a massive disappointment but, as Jackie is forever pointing out, he continually peels off the last defender but seldom receives a decent pass. Are the players to blame or is it the coaching?
Recently DM has confessed to needing a top centre forward, a strong mobile mid-fielder and a left-sided centre-back cover for Distin. Hopefully his wishes will be granted because next season has a tough look about it already.
Tony J posted some very interesting facts about Borussia Dortmund. How on earth did they manage such a huge turnaround in the past 6 years? Anyone have the details?
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1 Posted 30/04/2013 at 03:04:13