Is Anyone Else Confused?

The opening lines of a song by the Doors.

To stay with some of the analogies being used about ex-girlfriends, Moyes is the equivalent of that bird you and your mates thought was quite fit to start with. Your mates always give you that pat on the back to say well done for pulling that one. Whereas in fact, she was crap in bed, had lob sided breasts and awful morning breath except all day. In other words someone who promised a lot but delivered nothing.

It might be now we have to pull a fat one who's not so attractive to look at but might be something special in the sack!

Regarding the OP, I share similar sentiments. I was adamant Moyes should be gone after the Wigan debacle, but now that it's confirmed there's a part of me that wonders.

Anyway we'll all have to just move on. On whether we'll progress post-Moyes under new management remains to be seen. The only clear good I think comes out of this is that the board will be under closer scrutiny. Truly awful that they don't seem prepared for this scenario. I suspect they'll sign someone who's out of job at present and I'm going to guess Martin O'Neill ... unfortunately, sigh...

I would like to see Bill move quickly and find someone who does not cost the earth but has knowledge. Jupp Heynckes would be top of my list and is free. Jose would be second, I think what they need is a manager for 3-5 years someone who can take us forward with wisdom like Jupp and then do what SFA did move to the board and help a younger more promising man do the next 30 years.

If Moyes does badly / fails they will take great pleasure out of highlighting his failures and ultimately destroying him. If he succeeds they will cover themselves in butter, rubbing up against each other saying 'we were right, we're always right.....'

Moyes at Everton gave them consistent,reliable, tired column inches to trot out, just as his tenure had become. On the other hand Ferguson is a big player who'll they'll miss but blood is what sells newspapers and I can almost see them sniffing around Old Trafford as we speak, napkins around their necks, carving knife in hand...some will even be casting their eye over to Goodison Park to see what tasty morsels going to be dished up here. Scum.

Moyes is a con because he's not as good as he or the press or even Ziralix thinks he is. Take this season, a real opportunity to do something yet we get tonked at home to Wigan. After that we have an opportunity to push for a European place but we don't turn up at Sunderland. We're in a position to take all the points from Spurs but concede a late equaliser. We've bottled it again this season in true Moyes style.

Instead of explaining why Moyes is a con, perhaps someone could explain why he's been a success? And justify what you measure success against. Then ask yourself why your expectations of our club are so low and why you're willing to accept such mediocrity?

Had it not been for Cahill's extraordinary goal poaching Moyes weaknesses would have been exposed a lot sooner.

Perhaps you could outline why you think man united chose Moyes. Bearing in mind they are listed on the stock market, are one of the biggest clubs in the world, and were making the most important decision for the club in 25 years. Just perhaps they understand the traits required in a great manager, or perhaps they don't understand this element as well as you, or others who think he has been shite. You or the man united board? I will have to go with them....a close call though.

The most disappointing thing is what utter no-marks we look and Moyes has got away scot free with one of the great deceptions regarding his contract.

Salt in the wound the gormless prick taking the team for the last 2 games milking the applause of his deluded sheeple.

To answer your question about Moyes' success, I thought Beardwood's article painted a fair picture in the context of things. What did you think about it?

I wouldn't say our expectations are low. In fact I think they're the opposite given our financial context.

Moyes landed the gig simply due to a friendship..?!

Are you seriously suggesting that this is the professional judgement of the most successful manager in the history of the English game?

What we can expect is for the board to back our manager to a greater level than approximately 8th or 9th highest on wage and transfer budgets.

For my part I wish him well, I think he saved us when we were truly woeful, but I also think he held us back in the last few years. We were content, but not happy.

But I am scared. There are some perennial "will eventually be sacked" managers out there, free and wanting a job. If they were that good, they would be in a job. However, I don't trust Kenwright. He who would have got Megson. I would be amazed if, when we finally get a new manager (probably in December), it isn't someone who is out of a job and hopelessly out of their depth.

We got lucky with Moyes, I don't expect that to happen again.

One final point, I'm pissed off with hearing how lucky Everton were to have Moyes and how loyal he's been to us. The fact is Moyes was lucky to have Everton and we were loyal to him.

Without Moyes there is still Everton, without Everton would there still be a Moyes?

Dave. Spot on. It amazes how deluded some of our fans are in relation to how well we have done. See above, our actual net transfer spend puts us at 17th in the premier league over the last five years.

"We got LUCKY with Moyes, I don't expect that to happen again.

One final point, I'm pissed off with hearing how LUCKY Everton were to have Moyes and how loyal he's been to us. The fact is Moyes was lucky to have Everton and we were loyal to him."

Talk about confused but then in my opinion mast Moyesophiles were and still are.

The fact that he has consistently had Everton as the poorer end of that elusive club is painful to acknowledge as an achievement but it is. Most of the time we have been just behind these wealthy 6 but we have also finished 4th, 5th and 6th on various occasions so have actually finished above some of the wealthy 6. No other club has had that level of succes as consistently as Everton have had under Moyes. Villa have had a couple of good seasons finishing in the top 7, so have Newcastle. Then you get the other clubs who may have broken into the top 8 once or twice over the last dozen years. Under Moyes we have finished outside of the top 8 only twice.

This is why he has the Manchester United job, the biggest in british football, because every fan who is not an everton fan will tell you what he has done at Everton is excellent. Its not just the fact that we have finished in the top seven consistently. He has made us seem like a club that is actually competing with the wealthy 6 for places rather than a club that is just consistently finishing top of the poorer 14

As I said earlier, its a sad state of affairs that this is an achievement, but it is unfortunately. I have no doubt Moyes will be a success at Man Utd, I have no doubt he will win trophies and win matches at Anfield and Emirates etc and I wish him well.

If the new manager emulates at Everton what Moyes did I probably wont be singing from the rooftops about it , I will still alwyas bemoan our fallen status as one the giants of the game but I know he will be doing a good job and that for me is the most frustrating part of being an evertonian at the moment

Rathbone OUT!

As Tim says these things take months of prep to not join the dots is wilful idiocy.

As regards the events of the last 2 days I feel dazed and confused ( is that a title from Led Zeppelin ?). Initially I thought that both Manchester United and David Moyes had shown a great deal of disrespect towards Everton. Having had time to reflect on this I am still very much of this opinion. Manchester United may have been under no obligation to directly contact Everton, given that David Moyes is soon to be out of contract, however one would have hoped for some courtesy and integrity from them. It would seem that Global Brands are integrity free zones these days.

The last 2 games of the season are neither here nor there for Manchester United, they already have their title. However for Everton, the last 2 matches are of greater importance, yet both Manchester United and david Moyes himself have hardly helped our preparations. United and David Moyes could have waited until the season had actually finished before making any moves.And I was actually under the impression that David Moyes was going before deciding what he was doing - could he not have waited another 10 days instead of making a mokery of his words.

In my letter, I wished David Moyes well and I still do, but I have to say that he has gone down in my estimation. Did he have any intention of signing a new Everton contract ? Personally I am starting to doubt that. I think he has used Everton as a stepping stone in his career.

I was quite sick at the patronising manner in which Hansen and Shearer talked about Everton on TV. It felt like Football's version of Downton Abbey with United the Lords of the Manor and Everton the poor tenants. Funny how they forget the facts e.g. Manchester United the biggest club in the world ? How many European Cups compared to Real Madrid ? And Nottingham Forest managed to retain the European Cup unlike Global Brand FC.

What annoyed me especially about Hansen and Shearer was how grateful they think Evertonians should be to DM. Don't get me wrong I am grateful, but H & S made him out to be St Francis of Assisi - managing Everton out of the goodness of his heart. In actual fact he was extremely well paid and yes he was very good for Everton - but there are 2 sides to the coin - Everton were very good for David Moyes.

I actually feel very sorry for Kenwright - he backed Moyes through thick and thin and I think Moyes has been very poor in the way he has treated him. I wish Moyes well, but I would love to see him go through some football reality and have a period when he's not the darling of boardroom or media. He has been very lucky - we all know that even if we had been at the wrong end of the table this season - Kenwright would have backed him. It would be good to see how he copes when things aren't going well and he doesn't have the seemingly unconditional backing of his Chairman.

The "so what" business is Moyes was clearly in collusion it had fuck all to do with where we'll be in the summer but when/if Fergie went.

He treated this club shabbily thats the "so what" but the eternal problem with you Moyes kids is you cannot see beyond Moyes FC.

I believe there's an hourly train to Manchester from Lime St - have a devilish time.

That's the point Mat, Moyes didn't tell Kenwright he was off at the end of the season, he kept inventing different scenarios with no specifics, like I'll see what happens in the transfer window (Note: Not if I get 10 million I'll stay) and lets see where we finish in the league (Note: Not if we get in to the Champions league then I'll stay), get it now???????

Then instaed over appearing bewildered and shocked he could have thanked Moyes wished him luck and told supporters that the matter of a replacement is well advanced.

Instead he will now have to search 24/7, but, hey ,we know he's good at that. He is made Everton look second rate.

You can get off your righteous high horse about Moyes being in collusion with the board, as it is clearly your opinion (see first sentence). Moyes has seen out his contract until the end of the season, he has not left us mid season like many others do, nor has he dipped into summer spending before leaving like many others do. He has guided us to one of our highest Premier League finishes this season, in spite of having no financial support. You are extremely naive if you think the footballing world decisions happens only in public, and not behind closed doors. How do you know Kenwright has never given Moyes permission to talk with United? You don't. Just like many other things that you clearly do not know or understand.

So in true Information Minister style, now that Moyes is gone you can tell us how a new manager is going to have us winning the league without financial support. We need a good laugh.

Kenwright is the wrong person to be running a decent sized football club and it's little wonder that nobody wants to buy the club and have him in the boardroom. Kenwright has to look at his own position and do the right thing and resign as Chairman, too many things have gone awry on his watch and he is the main reason that they have gone wrong.

Why the other directors of the club are happy to watch him bumble along is one the great mysteries of the 21st Century.

Good spot, but in context I was trying to say that Moyes was an unknown quantity and we we lucky that he turned out to be OK rather than we were luck to have him.

I'll chose my words more carefully next time.

I think Moyes was the right person 11 years ago, but he wasn't the right person for the last 5 years - however he did keep us safe and I felt we would be safe with him.

2002-03 7th
2003-04 17th
2004-05 4th
2005-06 11th
2006-07 6th
2007-08 5th
2008-09 5th
2009-10 8th
2010-11 7th
2011-12 7th
2012-13 6th
and before....
2000-01 16th
1999-00 13th
1998-99 14th
1997-98 17th
1996-97 15th
1995-96 6th
1994-95 15th & FA Cup -
1993-92 17th
1992-93 13th
1991-92 12th

His improvement was achieved with a net spend of under a million? and who gives a fuck if he broke the transfer record Thomas? Do you understand the concept of relativity? Beattie wouldnt have cost what he did in the 90's...or the 80's etc etc. We have had the net spend of a relegation threatened squad..with which we have improved markedly from the Everton of the years before Moyes. And some of you are actually happy he is going?

Clearly do not understand football. I'm sure you will get some prettier football if Martinez comes in...and then the forums will bemoan our inability to defend.

Jim, you are not quite right actually. All achieved with a net spend of -2m (last 5 years). Equivalent to 19th in the premier league. What a shite manager eh?

Being a good 'wheeler dealer', which Moyes was, shouldn't be the definition of a good manager because that would mean Wenger is the best manager in the world, which he's not.

I think Moyes was the 8th biggest spender (around £130m gross) in the league and had an average league position of 7th.

"And some of you are actually happy he is going?" He's gone Jim, you don't have to support him anymore.

What's more important, how you got the money or what you did with it ?

Jim - to use your stats, the Moyes years we averaged 7th, before that it was 14th.

What would you rather have, 7th and no trophies, or 14th and an FA Cup ?

Unless of course, you are someone that can brag about a one off cup win when your club is being beaten season upon season by Stoke and West Ham.

Dan - Personally, I'd rather have trophies in the cabinet than money in the bank.

I think some of the MOB are furious that alot of them have been made to look a touch silly. Of course they know better than the media/ neutrals/Man U board etc....

That he replaces the most decorated of managers at the biggest club in the world has you absolutely fuming you didn't see whatever it is you want to see.

Anyway... you been on the blower to De Boer?

You point to Wenger? his net spend is great during Moyes tenure, and I love him as a manager...but Arsenal started that period as title contenders, whilst we were relegation contenders. In that period Arsenal have dropped away as a real force, have not won anything in six years, and have 2 and a half times our wages. In that period we have improved vastly. Arsenal were able to nick Fabregas etc....because they were Arsenal.

I'm with you Sam. And Ross, Moyes has got the job because he has worked wonders for us, and has demonstrated consistency and stability. He has won LMA awards for a reason... he has improved us incredibly on no money...and he has rejuvenated this club.

One of the most juvenile comments you have seen eh but you have just typed Manure instead of Man United. Irony?

Robbie #236 "Moyes didn't tell Kenwright" prove it, and I don't mean spout speculation or media comments. I mean give real proof, the sort of thing you would need in court if you wanted to sue Moyes for his actions.

I empathise with your feelings as it's been a bit of a rollercoaster week.
In fact, this year has been like that initial slow ascent at the start of the rollercoaster (will he stay? will he leave?) while the last 24 hours or so is the shock of that initial steep descent when the adrenaline kicks in.

I thought DM did well for us for 10 years but was increasingly of the opinion that he'd taken us as far as he could with current resources.

I think it was time for a change. However, when people can see change coming, they usually take some kind of action to protect themselves. In the rollercoaster situation, it's to put a safety bar in place so you don't fall out. In Everton's case, it should have been a Plan B - i.e. who is on our wanted list / interim list etc.

Bottom line - I support Everton FC, the club, not any player or manager. On that basis I'll be at the WHU match.

I would have preferred that all parties had shown mutual respect and acted cleanly at the end of the season rather than EFC getting shafted because SAF wants a send-off.

Why name Moyes now? That's where the confusion is for me.

Arsenal finished 5th before Wenger he took over. They were not title contenders. It still all means Wenger is the best manager in the league if Net Spend is the most important stat. While I think being able to be good at this is important, as Moyes clearly was, it's not my definition of a good manager. He doesn't have to worry about Net Spend any more, what's very important now is what he does with the money.

I think he was appointed Man Utd because they see him as the new Ferguson. I think this is where they've made a big mistake. Of course, we will find out.

I guess my point on Net Spend is that you can't put too much emphasis on it. It's used so often, TV pundits etc, to define how good a manager is.

Moyes's appointment is a way for Fergie to step down slowly rather than leave Man Utd cold turkey. Imo no top manager would have accepted the Man Utd job with Fergie looking over their shoulder and to be fair after 26 years, Man Utd needed to withdraw Fergie in steps rather than cold turkey. Fergie probably also knew that and gets on well with Moyes so hence the recommendation. Moyes has certainly not been chosen for his cavalier and winning brand of football!

It will be interesting to see how it develops at Man Utd but one thing is for sure, Moyes will never be able to fill Fergie's shoes.

Time to be excited at Everton – let's just hope BK doesn't appoint another British manager and has the balls to go continental.

Everton FC is bigger than ANY single player or manager. Moyes will go down in EFC history as an okay manager but nothing special. Let's hope the new guy can take us a step further...

Time to move on.

Yet we still have finished in the top 6 or 7. This is a critical skill in a good manager, (as is motivation, tactics etc), and Moyes has done a brilliant job. And if you think he is not any good, why have Man Utd selected him when they could have chosen anyone bar Guardiola.

So now we go around in circles... Wenger is the best manager in the league. :)

I think Moyes is a good manager, but overrated and a Nearly Man, which is why he didn't win anything with us. And I think/hope he won't win the League or Champs with Man Utd.

Ferguson hasn't always been right though. And I hope you want me to be right, after all it's Man Utd !

Can anybody hazard a guess as to why our debts are not being significantly reduced?? Is the entire Premier League financial model a basket case?

Amen Chris C

Let's not get carried away by his greatness shall we? He brought stability mixed with terrible looking football and hoofball.

I am greatful he brought stability when we needed it, but thats has far as it goes. He wants accolades for not winning anything? unbelievable.

If we want to be a big club again, we need to do a lot of things, but I fear the ambition and ability of this board is not there, and has never been, except to survive in the premier league while they wait for their delusional 150 million pounds

I wanted him to stay, I have always been a big supporter of his, but he wasn't realistically going to turn them down was he? They are the biggest club in the world after all (whether we like it or not).

I originally thought he would stay with us – showed me eh? But in a way, I am quite proud that such a club saw fit to choose our manager to take over from possibly the greatest manager of all time. It shows he must have been doing something right in the eyes of the professionals!

So now, we have to forget about Moyes and concentrate on getting the right manager for us. My choices are from Pereira, Laudrup, Poyet and Lambert.

One thing is for sure – it's going to be a busy busy summer for our club this year! Part of me is excited, part scared... haha.

I think Moyes will do well. A great dignified character and I wish him all the best. I want a young fiery manager who isn't afraid to take on the world. As Jurgen Klopp responded to the press just before Dortmund's second leg against Madrid when asked "Will you be afraid to go forward, attack and play your usual game given what is at stake?"

"No – because in life, if you want to achieve your dreams, you need to be brave, adventurous and take some risks."

Some of you on here defy belief you really do, you all come on here with lengthy explanations of how Moyes is bad at this and bad at that, yet when presented with actual facts (see Jim Knightley above) you choose to ignore it, get over your egos for once and stand up like our badge states, that is sadly what Moyes has done, he has gone to the best, whilst blinded fools fail to see the bigger picture.

BK has done more damage than PJ could have even dreamt about, but hardly a peep out of happy clappers, but BK is a blue so that's alright, no it isn't!!

I wrote on here around 7 years ago telling us to stand up and remove BK asking where the then £13M "other operating costs" are going, now it is £24M and we still don't know where it is going and continue with a chairman who states he doesn't know where a 1/3 of his companies expenses are going to? Would any of you employ somebody with that kind of banality or crass incompetence?

For Christ sakes stop blaming Walter Smith, Moyes, Neville, Osman or Hibbert and focus on if we had a proper chairman none of the above would have been at Everton in the first place.