Martinez: Can We Afford to Take the Risk?

The Moyes way improved our status in domestic football but we have no titles to defend. So, time is what we have and patience will be needed. I'd rather build a new team with a manager who is virtuous and has sound footballing ethics.

Martinez is my choice. He's less of a risk than Moyes was 11 years ago and his relegation battles will have taught him something, surely. If he's appointed I'm sending him a copy of Zulu to show him how to defend. New back four of 'Hooky', Caine, Baker and Sandbag. Blue tunics instead of red, of course!

Even Moyes's own comments were cringeworthy and became an embarrassment. The "knife to a gunfight" being one of many. We need a manager who will adopt a brand new ethos and football philosophy that must transmit through to both fans and players alike.

We must stop feeling sorry for ourselves and try to forget what others have or don't have. Above all else, we must embrace youth as we can't compete financially. Youth and better scouting system abroad are essential for the next manager — No more Brits, that's a definite.

Well, I'll tell you what.

Give me a list of the risk-free managers and I'll get back to you.

The realistic view is that our best hope is young manager who has already cut his teeth elsewhere and is ready to move to a bigger club. So from the famous list of 19 we are looking at somebody like Martinez, MacKay or Poyet. Possibly one of the German managers that have been mentioned this week, Tuchel or Favre.

Alternatively we may attract somebody who has made some sort of reputation in a European leagure and sees a move to England as his next step. I can't see past Pereira here unless you count Lennon.

I could write a long list of pros and cons for all of them but none are without risk.

And yes, I steered well clear from internal promotions because for me the risks are far too great.

Destroying us at Goodison, running the Champions ragged when it REALLY mattered, and lifting the cup in the process was supposed to be impossible.

Relegation was INEVITABLE given Wigan's circumstances – primarily Whelan closing the chequebook and the annual forced sale of star players.

Martinez somehow deferred the inevitable by a few years by choosing to play exciting football – and that is the key. We have defensive expertise by the bucket load; our requirement is pace, verve and a different mindset.

He is the man.

He's served his time in the Prem not just a 12-month stint or even worse no experience at all (huge gamble!) and his Wigan arrival makes our departing hero's look like easy street.

Immediate funding, Rooney, a wage differential and sheer club size that impartial observers would never ignore.

Of course we must take him – IF HE WILL COME!

Yet again you make this mistake of presuming that Moyes' defensive expertise is just going to last under whoever the new manager is. This may not happen the back 4 will need replacing eventually when Distin goes and if Baines moves on.

When the new manager comes in if he is the continental type of supposed free flowing football then you can't somehow claim him as yours i.e the antithesis of what all the Moyes lovers always wanted. Equally if he's perceived to be some sort of backwards British coach then you can't claim that all the Moyes lovers will now be satisfied and immediately form a Malkay/Stubbs/Hughes out group along the line sof the MOB. When the new manager comes everyone will have to make their own choice on him depending on how he does. Stop trying to re-start a fight that's finished.

Also Martinez is never going to play Anichebe in midfield - sorry.

Experts believe that an average manager will achieve a league position equivalent to the clubs wage bill. Martinez has done just that.

If he does the same at Everton then we will finish 9th or 10th, losing a couple of million pounds in the process. Eventually this loss will need to be offset, most likely by reducing the wage bill still further. And so begins the spiral.

I know that it might not happen, I am only going off what has happened in the last few years. I also know that some fans will happily sacrifice league standings for a trophy, but one trophy does not guarantee more, Alex McLeish, Bobby Gould, even Joe Royle, all won trophies and then went down hill. Royles post 95 highlight winning the division 2 play offs.

I think there is no doubt Martinez plays attractive football, but is it winning football, and for those who say I would rather watch a team play Martinezs way would soon change their mind if we were always in the relegation zone. Also people say well he will do better at Everton because we have better players and who brought the players to Everton not Martinez. He has had enough time at Wigan to have produced better results, you only have to look at Swansea whos manager has had less time than Martinez also won a trophy and spent less money than Martinez.

Finally Martinez keeps persisting playing 3 at the back it doesnt work in the Premiership and maybe thats why your teams concede more goals than anyone else.

Wigans PL finishes before Martinez:
10th
17th
14th
11th

When Martinez came in:
16th
16th
15th
18th

I'm struggling to see the evidence that he is a "terrific manager". Good bloke, full of integrity. But he's just relegated a club that Paul Jewell and Steve Bruce had pushing for a top 10. It's an utter myth that he fought against the odds to keep Wigan in the Premier League: he relegated a club (and nearly relegated them on 3 other occasions) that had previously looked like cementing its place mid-table.

You have to combine good football with winning enough league games to show progression and he just doesn't do that. He won a trophy but so did Mcleish - both followed it by relegation. Their CVs read the same yet because one apparently has a philosophy this makes one a great manager and one a dinosaur.

1) Consistently worst league record than predecessor
2) Every season in a relegation Dog fight
3) Relegated this year
4) All done with a Similar net spend to Moyes
5) All done on a Similar wage bill to EFC

All number based, no opinions.
If there is one to be made, Can somebody put forward a numeric case for him?

Seriously, the anti Moyes people could not stand to have Moyes rated based on inputs relative outputs, and now they are all coming out of the wood work to praise Martinez for precisely that.
I don’t know if other people feel different, but I won’t swap 10 FA cups in exchange for losing top flight football. Cups come with a degree of luck, leagues measure aggregate quality

The only argument I see for Martinez is, that some people think he is pretty good. Maybe he is, I am not saying they are wrong, I’m just say I can’t see why how they come to that conclusion.
The work he did at Swansea gets mention, but surely we cannot overlook the fact that Swansea seem to have done better without him, and better than the team he went on to manage.

Just ask United re Moyes appointment.

Thanks for proving the closed minds comment - ditto Brendan and James.

".......as 2 short planks" comes to mind.

But his record is just not good enough, week-in, week-out, across a four-year period.

The playing exciting football is a bit of a media myth. His appalling defensive record is there for all to see but Wigan's goal scoring record is not much better. A paltry 164 in 151 games (the dour defensive one managed 220 in the same period!)

Winning the FA Cup is an achievement and I thought Wigan played really well against us and Man City. The question must be: If he had such talented footballers at his disposal, why could he not get them up for the 38 games that got them relegated?

But if you still think the stats are in isolation, what context would you like to add that would make Martinez' record at Wigan look better? Seriously, please feel free to provide some. I'm guessing your thinking about the kind of context that you never allow to be applied to David Moyes' reign. You know, financial backing etc. Unfortunately for you, the numbers make Moyes look good and Martinez woeful.

As for "just ask United re Moyes' appointment", their reasoning was quite simple and very rational: they looked at the stats. Given resources and the situation he inherited, Moyes has drastically over-achieved (Everton's spend puts us 4th from bottom over the decade) year after year. Given resources and the situation he inherited, Martinez has drastically under-achieved, culminating in an embarrassing relegation.

And just be clear, I am undecided re Martinez. The relegation issue is a key consideration though.

When clubs appoint a new manager, what they are often (not always, but often) buying is PROMISE. I would say that is exactly what Man Utd have done with Moyes, because the man has won nothing in 11 years at Everton and has little European experience. They obviously reckon he has the necessary skills to take a step up. In so far as he is unproven at their level, he is a risk.

The same applies to Martinez. Some of us believe that RM has the ability to manage at a higher level, based on his previous performance working under certain restrictions. Furthermore, we think that he has the right character for the job, that he would represent our club well and get us playing a style of football which (a) we could be proud of, and (b) has a reasonable chance of achieving success, in our terms. I'd say this parallels Man Utd's appraisal of Moyes.

As well, "in isolation" from what exactly?
The polite request has been for the Martinez advocates to call forth some of their own stats. Is that an unreasonable request?

If Martinez gets the job, I will back him all the way.
But don't you think Pereira seems a better choice if we could get him?

Simply doesn't work and can't be applied to football management - EVER!

99% of managers who have won stuff, have gone on to fuck up at other clubs and from time to time, managers who've fucked-up at one club, have become successful at another (er..probably) (nb: stats from the University Of Please Yourself, California)

Whoever we get (particularly given the money he WON'T have to spend) it WILL be a gamble.

Will he like the players?

Will the players like him?

Will the players RESPECT him?

Will he bring in good/shit players?

Will he train them too hard/soft?

Will his family be able to settle? - and a thousand more questions that nobody knows the answers to.

Real Madrid saw another team win the CL, they spent millions to recruit that team's coach and gave him a team containing some of the world's very best players.

Result?

A team from Germany wins the CL.

Or try this, Chelsea get rid of an interim coach (Di Matteo) who wins them the CL and replaces him with someone they think is better...who puts them into the Europa. He then goes to another team who could finish higher than the team he just left.

There's some science to it but it is NOT science and luck and a whole load of intangibles play a part.

Ok, can you improve your chances with the 'right man'?

With money, definitely - but we haven't got any, which decreases our choice re the right man

My advice would be simply to prepare yourself for a name that is going to make you react as follows.

"You must be fucking JOKING!!"

Dennis (793) - Agree completely re Joe Royle.

As for Martinez and Wigan's defensive record, if appointed he's hardly likely to turn up and fuck about with a defence that is working a lot better than the last one he had (is he?)

I'm NOT touting Martinez by the way, I personally like the cut of Pereira.

Although at least with Martinez, I'd get the satisfaction of sending off a lovely letter off to Whelan

( gist - "Fuck you big club blah blah wooly-back nob-head blah blah Tory Thatcher-loving twat blah blah pie-scoffing dolt blah blah etc waffle boring broken leg story blah blah" etc)

I get the 'promise' idea and have never been tied either to managers having won things (not many do) or having had premier experience. The issue I have with Martinez is that his reputation is based on keeping a poor team up plus playing good football.

Wigans half dozen best performances of the season, including tis year undoubtedly at out place in the cup, would make a great highlights package but most of the time they are complete crap. They are highlight friendly and get undue credit for their rare but outstanding performances. Id also worry about any team not giving due attention to defence. If you cant pick a decent centre half you've got problems.

As regards, teams being "highlight friendly", well, that is a larger issue. I have a couple of friends who are Chelsea fans and they always raved about Tim Cahill. They made him sound like the best player on the planet. I replied that he was "MotD-friendly". Basically, they only saw him when he was scoring a goal (or having a near miss) on the telly. I countered that when Cahill wasn't scoring, he wasn't doing that much, apart from unsettling defenders and being generally combative; what's more, he could only play in one position and his selection sometimes distorted the way our team played.

So, yeah, highlights can be deceptive. The thing is, the only two times I've seen Wigan play 90 minutes they have been terrific! Who here can say they have watched ever Wigan game? No one.

Hopefully BK doesn't buy DW's set-up.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Martinez could turn out to be a really successful manager.

However, when you appoint someone to any job you are usually looking for evidence of previous performance i.e results and potential to develop. My unscientific gut feeling is he would be a disaster. Just because he has some great defenders at his disposal,and Everton's current back four are as good as any in the PL bar none, doesn't mean he couldn't fuck it up by playing a different formation or asking players to do things differently.

I hope you're wrong about the next manager but I'm with you in having a horrible sinking feeling of BK doing it on the cheap. Pereira for me too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22562419

But.

You have all got to see the irony in some of DM's most ardent supporters, accusing Barry Rathbone of having a closed mind re Martinez' faults.

"Relegation was INEVITABLE given Wigan's circumstances primarily Whelan closing the chequebook and the annual forced sale of star players."

Then please explain to me (and believe me, I'm all ears for this one) how you think Martinez will take us further given that exactly the same circumstances apply to Everton?

He is too carefree and his team plays the same way which is why they let so many goals in.

The worst defensive record in the Prem.

Worse than Reading or QPR.

Is that a CV for managing EFC???

If so how far have we fallen.

We should really be looking at Rijkaard, De Boer, Hiddink etc.

We need to look up rather than down.

Scott 866, another reason not to get him.

Colin 867, Barry was actually accusing others of having closed minds, they were just throwing it back at him.

Eugene 821 Of course it's all a risk, but as a business you try to minimise the risk. I guess that clubs would do this by looking at a managers history, I fear that Kenwright does it by asking a series of questions and adding up the numbe of Yes answers he gets.

However my information is that Martinez to Everton is already a done deal and we are merely being required to see out the first act of another of BK's productions....

Joint Producer: Dave Whelan, who needs to keep his punters sweet as well.

Opening schedule and supporting casting next week, I believe...

Duffy for back up, and I think Hibbert could easily play the right side centre back of the 3. We would need one more centre back, or two if we sell Heitinga.

But look at the positives, firstly with the system, it would mean more support for the striker, which will be good for Jelavic, and could get him scoring. Baines and Coleman are ideal wing backs for the system, with Oviedo as a good backup for the left, and even Stones on the right, who played right wing back constantly for Barnsley last season.

We would need a few players granted, an athletic centre midfielder for one, a couple of good centre backs, and possibly another two strikers. Fellaini would not suit the system, so I imagine he will be sold if Martinez was.

I think it's doable, and I think the article points out the negatives of the system, but not really the positives. I think it could work, and it looked promising against Stoke, where the system looked good.

My advice, forget what 'clubs' do, focus on what WE will do.

The truth is, what a good way is, or what the right way would be, is irrelevant in our case, for two reasons

1) Kenwright - a man who will ALWAYS find a way to get it wrong.

2) Money - we don't have any.

You say 'as a business you try to minimise the risk'.

True but only if YOU are the right person to make the choice and you can AFFORD the right choice.

If you are the WRONG person AND skint, chances are you fuck up (nb: we know soft-lad is skint and even former BK cheerleader Dodd now thinks he's the wrong person).

What happens anywhere else, or what the right plan might be, simply does not apply here.

This is Everton, this is Kenwright and if all of us have learned just one thing in his time 'leading' us, it is that in just about any situation, he'll fuck up.

I'm no fan of Martinez and would not be dancing around if he was appointed.

However I WOULD see it as..um...'damage limitation'..to a degree.

What I mean by that is simply that Martinez is NOT Mark Hughes - or any of the other dozen or so dead-beats who I seen suggested.

Personally I think, if after the appointment has been made (and given who's in charge of our club) if Evertonians can say "Well...I suppose it could be worse", we've probably had a result.

I would still expect the club to be in the top 7 after season 1 because I believe that the clubs included in that group are starting to pull away from the rest of the league in terms of quality.

Seasons 2 and 3 I would want to see the new mans footprint stamped well and truly on the club in regards to tactic playing staff etc. and closing the gap on the top 4.

I really do think the new person needs to have a real crack at the cups from day 1 too. Winning a trophy would help keep fans onside if league form dips beyond expectation (within reason obviously).

If they haven't won anything in 11 years we should fuck em off.

There's an important game on May 25th (I think it's called the Champions league final??), one of the the managers, he's called Jurgen Klopp committed the terrible sin of getting his club (Mainz 05) relegated from the Bundesliga while playing attacking football in the hope of keeping them up, he left them after 7 years without bringing them back up to join his current club. Borussia Dortmumd had a significant faction within their fan base that thought he was a terrible risk and they should choose an established big name manager, luckily for the club and fans they have a decent chairman/board that will roll the dice and they did with Jurgen Klopp!

There's far too much read into this Wigan relegation, if the ManU board felt the same as the anti (we refuse to be open minded about him) Martinez camp, Moyes would not have gotten his chance at ManU. Remember, he's never won anything and he's had over 40 attempts to beat one the old Sky 4 teams on their own grounds, while having also having 22 attempts at domestic cup competitions and never looking like we had that killer touch (let's not even mention Europe!).

For what it's worth I think he will win a few things with ManU, some prems and a cup or two considering the state of the competition: ManC, Chelski and the rest of us are in ( and also with the help of their money and Robin Van Persie). Although I think he will be found out in Europe when he faces the big boys.

For those looking at the club through rose tinted specs, it's time for a reality check. We are a has/was been club that has huge baron periods between winning things (even before the EPL came into existance!), we have a very loyal and loud crowd, it's not massive (but decent sized by prem standards) that gets behind its team, an old stadium with character that desperately need replacing and finally (and most importantly) if you were to prize the lock of Goodison war chest you'll find a few emaciated hungry mice and some rusty old coins. Whatever profits we make go straight back out and not into the afor mention war chest.

We are limited in the people (of quality) that will come to us, If they are a big name, they'll want a big salary and even bigger transfer budget. I'm praying that some of the favourites as layed down by the bookies: Stubbs, Neville, Poyet, Lennon, Mackay and Weir are not considered by our board, they have no experience of EPL management or its pressures (it's probably a tougher league to survive in than the one Moyes started in).

There ain't many candidates when you filter out the wild cards (Laudrup will not come!), you're left with the likes of Allerdyce, Clarke, Di Matteo, Jol and some potentially expensive foreign imports. Being relegated is not the end of the world and the good thing here is that it happened elsewhere, someone else experienced the negatives and misery, while we get a manager who will have learnt something and fucking will not want to learn it again!

1. We strike gold with some of our prospects and cash in to buy some world class players.
2. Some are good rotation players and give us the added depth we needed to qualify for CL.
3. They aren't as good as people think, and we continue finishing 6th-8th in more entertaining fashion.

Regardless of what the outcome would be, at least we would have made the attempt of being proactive and adopting a philosophy that is about longevity, rather than moaning about the money we don't have to purchase known commodities.

So it's not that he has been a poor manager for one season, he has been a poor manager every season. And to think you like so many championing Martinez used to bash David Moyes week in week out for getting us a top 10 finish every season. You really don't know what you're talking about do you?

This could be a long summer!

You're absolutely right. 1,2 and 3 could all happen however you omitted

4. We could become a really easy team to beat and get relegated.

Which of the 4 did Martinez achieve in his time at Wigan?

Comparing Moyes and Martinez directly, like you have is utterly pointless. I wonder whether it is infact you who have no idea what you're talking about.

Look at SAF's huge list of titles. Look at Moyes empty trophy cabinet. Therefore because Moyes has won fuck all, he must be shit. Lets forget that SAF had a massive number of years at his club compared to Moyes, and that he had vast resources to call upon every year compared to Moyes. You see where I'm going?

Martinez may have got wigan relegated after 3 years, compared to Moyes finishing generally in the top 8, but the fact that Martinez kept Wigan in the league that long and playing good football is a testament to his management skills, given the paucity of resources available to him, the fact he was managing probably one of the most unfashionable clubs in the league, and because he had to sell his best players each season.

Lets not forget that he has actually gotten swansea promoted before he joined Wigan as well as the recent FA Cup. You don't win championships if you're a shit manager.

Also, take a look at the table. 5 points separate 11th from wigan. Its very, very tight down there and wigan have finished a whisker behind the likes of Sunderland, Newcastle and Villa, all of whom are much more wealthy and desirable clubs.

Truth is none of us know whether he would be a success or not. I can only speak for myself, but I was never critical of Moyes for his league finishes. My problems with Moyes were more to do with his mentality, the poor standard of the football over his tenure, and his plan to move us forward which involved ignoring our academy and blackmailing the club to take on further debt.

Back to the original post, it seems the entire article is premised on the "fact" that Martinez will play 3-4-3 if he joins. I think it more likely he will pick a formation to suit the players at the club, and if the players change over time, his formation may change too.

I'd also offer a counter argument to those who say we can't take a risk. Our club is not a major club to most managers. We're not going to be poaching an established coach from a uk or foreign club involved in european competition.

We need to take a risk on whoever we bring in if we want to move forward. We're not in a position to take the safe option if we want to win things and regularly challenge for european spots.

Hardly difficult, they've been one of the bookies favorites every season since getting promotion.

On the more adventurous theme, who would you put your last fiver on given a choice of us or Wigan to win the cup?

How on earth can anyone want him as our next manager?

Moyes needed funds in January and did not get them and now he is off paint it whatever way you want.

And Jurgen Klopp got Mainz relegated playing attacking football but was straight away given the job by Borussia Dortmund, where he built a team from youth and now they're in the Champions league final. What does that do to your opinions of relegated managers.

What you said about Harry is not all true, did he really get QPR relegated? Don't be silly!

You also didn't say he demands a fortune to spend wherever he manages, isn't renowned for developing youth (something we have to do (we've got no money)), Redknapp and Martinez are completely different beasts and Redknapp is only responsible for one relegation (QPR were long gone with that team of wankers before he arrived: naughty boy Chris!).

Not a very good example on your behalf really, he's been relegated and then gone on to do reasonably well, all be it as a bit of a spender. This backs up what I said?

Some says Moyes over-achieved as use his net transfer send as evidence yet use Martinez's record to beat him despite his small budget he had to deal with. Others excuse Martinez poor record because of his small budget whilst criticising Moyes because he apparently under-achieved but don't account for his small net transfer spend.

We all appear to be ready for a verbal punch up on this subject (it's sad, but the subject is so important).

"I was actually using Redknapp as a way of illustrating the fact that there is no one perfect mould of manager."

I totally agree with that statement.

A case in point is Pardew, last year very nearly got Newcastle into the champions League and this year very nearly sent them into them down into the Championship.

The margins between failure and victory are so fine in the prem, it's difficult to see the good from bad managers (but the odd Mark Hughes does pop up with a complete cluster fuck).

If the truth be known I do have concerns about the Martinez defensive record, but I take the same attitude ManU have taken with Moyes. Although he hasn't won anything there's enough about him to use the superior sqaud and money at his disposal good use. If he puts our team out with the atitude his team had against ManC and combined with our superior defence and few of his own editions?

I made the following statement above:

"There ain't many candidates when you filter out the wild cards (Laudrup will not come!), you're left with the likes of Allerdyce, Clarke, Di Matteo, Jol and some potentially expensive foreign imports. Being relegated is not the end of the world and the good thing here is that it happened elsewhere, someone else experienced the negatives and misery, while we get a manager who will have learnt something and fucking will not want to learn it again!"

And it still stands, I have to say I think he is by far the best of a not too impressive bunch.

Of the 3 front runners Martinez was, at the last count, at 16% with Laudrup ruling himself out. Many of us haven't got a clue about Vitor but know of Martinez good works in these leagues - Swansea and Wigan.

For some reason the FA Cup is completely overlooked now relegation has befallen Wigan but a good number of us see the "positives" outweighing the negatives in Martinez.

Far more pertinently they fit exactly the void in the playing problems of this club somethingS clearly spotted by 50% of the vote wanting "another way". Saying he's shit (as a fair number are) seems more of an agenda than an argument for a cup winner.

I have been waiting for Moyes to leave for years and I want a replacement who sets his side up to win games. Imagine that! I can't think of anyone (available) apart from Martinez who fits the bill. I couldn't cope with a Moyesalike such as Lennon or Mackay.

It's not the despair; it's the hope...

Are you suggesting that Klopp is a panacea for all relegated managers?

Mark Hughes must also be in contention then using your selection criteria?

We are aiming low with Martinez and after enough seasons in the top flight to create an impression, he has. And it's fighting relegation and, ultimately, getting relegated.

How on earth can you think he is the man for Everton?

"Robert (033), that one swallow doesn't make a Summer."

Correct, but that one single swallow with his Bundesliga championship and CL final blows away DM's 11 years and proves not all relegated managers are bad.

"Are you suggesting that Klopp is a panacea for all relegated managers?"

Your being a bit dramatic here, see my comment above ("not all").

Mark Hughes must also be in contention then using your selection criteria?

You haven't been reading my posts above, if you had you'd have seen I'm no fan of Hughes.

"We are aiming low with Martinez and after enough seasons in the top flight to create an impression, he has. And it's fighting relegation and, ultimately, getting relegated."

Who do we aim high with, you've only put two comments on here slagging of other peoples choices, but you haven't put your own up.

"How on earth can you think he is the man for Everton?"

Come on tell us all who "On earth" you think will save Everton FC. And be realistic Laudrup won't come and no Morinho's etc.

If you want to tout Martinez for reasons of personal intuition – do so. But, just have the honesty to openly admit that it is a preference is based “solely on intuition”, because if you cannot see the wealth of evidence against him, there is something deeply amiss with how you see things.

Maybe Martinez would be a great manager, if he gets the job, of course I am supporting him and wishing him well, but it if he does actually do well, it will be strongly against the flow of what he has already achieved in the EPL.

We don't having fucking Paul Scharner and Gary Caldwell back there. We have Phil Jagielka and Sylvain Distin for christ sake. Is Martinez going to make them unlearn how to be amazing defenders? At some point you've got to be reasonable.

The man got relegated because the hurdle of selling off his best players every season was too high and his style of play wasn't conducive to grinding out 1-0 victories in a relegation battle. Thus his downfall.

The foundation Moyes has built through mostly solid player trading has left us in a safe position where we are no longer afraid of relegation because of the talent we have accrued. There is simply no way we will all of sudden find ourselves shipping 70 goals a season because our manager attacks more often, regardless of who he is.

Personally, I think we will suffer a slow decline over the coming years. Martinez won't make our players shite overnight but when the likes of Distin and Jagielka retire, shite players of the quality of Gary Caldwell and Paul Scharner that you mention will likely replace them. He hasn't shown himself to be too clever in the transfer market.

I predict we will be fighting relegation within 3 years if Martinez becomes the Everton manager.

Chris (97): Out of all of the managers in the frame (and I take Laudrup out of the equation) I believe Martinez to have the most tactical nouse. I believe he set the template at Swansea, a team I have enjoyed watching over the last few seasons, only for others (Rodgers) to take the accolade. I'm not totally convinced by him but with some of the other names being bandied about by the bookies he would be my punt. Not all bets come in though.

I agree 100%.
The way some fans are reacting is unbelievable....."that's it we will be fighting relegation in the next two seasons"......."the only way is down now Moyes has gone"
WHY?
We have got a great starting 10 if we put a decent forward in front of them we will score more goals and will improve our standing.
We have got some good young players coming through,with the increased tv money the new manager will add to the squad.
Stop crying face up to it Moyes has gone,lets get positive.

My issue is not getting a new manager, I thought the time was right for new leadership to hopefully take us further than Moyes could. I just don't see Martinez as that leader.

It wasn't the "MOB" that drove DM into Man U's hands - he has long held an ambition for that job, and his period at Everton was seen as good enough by the Man U hierarchy. The fact is that BK is unable to take the club forward - not his fault if he doesn't have the money, but it is his fault that he's exhausted every line of credit and goodwill. No matter who the new man is, he'll reach the same ceiling DM did until BK et al have found the right people to take the club on.

Compare Martinez to another candidate for the job, Malky Mackay.

Mackay also defied the odds to get his team to Wembley, where they only lost to Liverpool on a penalty shootout. They were just a tiny bit of luck away from lifting the trophy.

Even more impressively though, after two years during which he's had to completely rebuild the team without any funds to speak of, he's led Cardiff to the Championship title. To do this he's had to get the most out of his players week after week - something that the likeable and personable Martinez seems unable to do. As far as tactics are concerned, my impression is that he's a much more astute operator than Martinez. I think some of the support for Martinez comes from fans who'd like to see Everton playing with more flair, fluidity and imagination than has generally been the case under Moyes. But at the end of the day it's about winning matches, and that's something that Mackay, who adapts his tactics from game to game, is well equipped to do.

Good article here on Mackay : http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22187777

Its like some of you are 5 years old and still can't get out of the name calling bollocks enough to actually put forward a coherent point. It really annoys the heck out of me. We're meant to be some of the most enlightened fans around.....my arse.

Steven Telford...you say that your opinions are valid because they are based on the "wealth of negative facts" against Martinez and those of us who think he would do a good job are just basing that on gut feel.

However, you've conveniently ignored all of the facts that don't fit your profile of martinez as a shit manager. All the things he's won and achieved during his career. It doesn't give your argument much credibility.

What I'd like to hear about is a manager who we have a chance of getting as an alternative to Martinez. There aren't many about that are available, would come to us, and we can afford. I suspect any candidate is either going to have a chequered history or lack of experience. Martinez seems a very good candidate in those terms.

Everton is a great club with a great tradition, passionate fans and some top class players on its books. That would attract the attention of a certain type of personality.
It seems to me availability is the real stumbling block. But that's on a surface difficulty - Bill Kenwright should go out and head hunt a top manager for the club. He should be bold - even outrageous. Let us not play down the fact that EFC finished 6th in the best football league in the world. Add that the fact that they were only beaten once on their own turf this season and we start to look like a very attractive proposition.
I wish I could give the team talk before tomorrow's game at Chelsea - I would tell them to go out and play their hearts out to attract the attention of their next manager - perhaps someone special.

Bill Kenwright is responsible for the running of Everton FC and although he personally may owe thanks and gratitude to David Moyes, Everton FC does not, we have paid him handsomely, we have given him a good send-off and on the whole we wish him well in his professional career, but come Monday morning that should be the end of it.

It goes beyond friendship and respect, it's more like obsessional romantic love. "I will always love you, David, even though you have left me and found someone else". Get a grip, Kenwright. Your responsibility is with Everton FC, not its former manager.

To be honest, I can see us going through a few managers over the next few years.

Steven, how about:

* an FA Cup Win
* promotion(with swansea) via winning the league
* keeping wigan in the league for several seasons despite being among the least wealthy and desirable clubs and losing his best players each season and not playing percentage football.
* developing young players discarded by other clubs(McManaman for example, who Moyes got rid of).

I'm sure there are other plus points to Martinez, but I think those alone make him a serious contender.

Spending on transfer fees(which is I assume what you focused on) is only a part of the picture of what manager has to spend. If Moyes spent the same on wages as Martinez managed, then he'd probably have a £20-£30M transfer kitty.

Moyes: “I wouldn’t answer to whether it should be internal or external because it would be unfair"

Followed by..

"I would always recommend the people who are around me. A lot of them know how the workings of the training ground is, how we move things forward and the restraints the club has, so it is easy for them to deal with that"

Hope that's clear - not saying whether it should be internal or external but..it should be internal.

Great point about the 'workings of the training ground' though and one I never even considered.

I mean think about it, any manager coming in from outside would see the training pitch and the gym and immediately think "What the FUCK are they!?"

Same with bibs and balls and cones, someone from outside wouldn't know where we keep them so it makes SO much sense to make the appointment internal.

(tuts, rolls eyes, sighs, mutters as sarcastically as possible.. 'how the workings of the training ground is')

Scrabbling about to avoid relegation has included clusters of teams of similar financial stature, e.g Blackpool, Swindon, Wolves and they've just managed to squeak above these teams, until now of course.

I'd rather look elsewhere. I guess if he was appointed my reaction would be.......meeeh ok, which applies to most of the names mentioned.

Piss off, Moyes, your future (limited as I believe it will be) is with United, a great club, great team, great fans, great ground, they will not take the shit you've given us for the last 7 years (Thanks for the first 4 BTW), they are used to attack, win, entertain, you are about to be found out IMHO big time.

In Martinez I Trust

There seems to be some debate on the wages issue. And when you think about it, Martinez predecessors had the same constraints as him, and actually achieved more.

Great that he got Swansea promoted, but his EPL recorded is more significant in terms of assessing if he is fit to take over at Everton. One FA Cup does not cut it for me. While it’s nice to win a cup, they come with a huge element of luck. Moyes has been very unlucky here. This year should have been ours.

I appreciate the facts you offer, but still on balance feel that case for Martinez is not IMHO that strong. I would MUCH prefer Pereira. I won’t complain if he gets the job, but that is more because the list we are looking at is painfully uninspiring.

He has European experience, PL experience and has managed a similar size club to Everton in Aston Villa that have dropped like a stone since his departure and showed he was almost able to match Moyes in the league consistently. He has also proved to be good in the transfer market admittedly with more resources than Everton are used to but I believe he could adjust

Sunderland are too trigger happy when it comes to sacking managers, they sacked Bruce before O'Neil who did better than Martinez at Wigan and has just done a brilliant job with Hull. I am confident if O’Neil was given more time at Sunderland he would have survived the drop and then took the club forward over the following seasons.

Martinez is small time and weak. Do people honestly think that we will start to play great football if he arrives? suddenly Jaggs will start passing the ball out from defence like a cultured CB. We need our players to play to their strengths not forcing them to do things that they are not comfortable doing. The system and style need to fit the players not the other way around.

It certainly won't be 'Who can take us into the Champions League?' as he sips his Merlot with Jenny by the fireside.

His fist concern will be appointing someone who will not, under any circumstances, rock the boat. Our press office have a full time job on their hands, trying to keep our finances out of the mainstream press. They don't want a manager who will start banging on about financial pressures - Moyes dropped a few hints, but his main line was 'the Chairman gives me everything he can.'

Wages will also be a major consideration, they will try to cut costs, so forget about anyone coming here on a similar pay scale to Moyes, it's not happening.

Keeping the status quo - our board budget for a top half finish in the P.L. we are all looking for someone to take us to the next level. The next level unfortunately requires money and ambition, do you think that any of our current Board want to invest their personal wealth?

I'm sorry to say, we will only appoint a new man who will keep his trap shut, and manage a top half finish for a couple of million less than Moyes was earning for the priveledge. The Liverpool Echo are reporting that 4 of our back room staff are being interviewed next week ( Stubbs, Irvine, Sheedy & Ferguson) along with Martinez.

Take your pick from those, or a Malky Mackay type, someone who can't believe their luck they have landed the Everton job.

Yes man — he has to agree with whatever lies I come out with
Has to be recommended by my Davey luv
In-house — continuity of my Davey luv's legacy
Scottish — so "we can continue in the Davey luv tradition"

We don't want Jonathan Foreigner invading our shores — just a simple pronounceable British name that I can say properly, like Weir or Stubbs

Most importantly: I don't want to let My Davey luv down

[Bill breaks down in uncontrollable sobbing...]

A Stubbs or a Weir is a truly scary prospect.

The lack of ambition in the recruitment process as been truly staggering but I have come to expect it from our Blue Bill

Its clear that Martinez is spending about £25M per season less than Moyes and he is spending amongst the lowest in the league. I'll be glad to hear which part of this you think is debatable.

I'll admit his teams are more defensively prone than many, but you can offset that against the fact that he has virtual no-bodies playing good football, which Moyes could not manage for 90% of his tenure with much better players. Personally I think we have better players than Wigan so I can envisage that his style of football could quite easily result in top half finishes.

I also agree with James Stewart. The thought of an internal appointment sanctioned by Moyes is probably the scariest of all outcomes(with perhaps the exception of Mark Hughes or Sam Allardyce).

His actual win rate is 25% across 4 seasons. Whichever way you look at it that is the worst record of any manager in that period.
You can argue stats until you are blue in the face but my biggest concern is his inability to get results on any sort of consistent basis. How can a group of players who are capable of putting both us and City to the sword perform so miserably on so many occasions.
It is quite interesting many people's perception of Mackay. I think people just assume another version of Moyes but actually I think he might have some potential. Certainly he set his Cardiff team up in quite a progressive fashion and they won the Championship at a canter.

His league placings ultimately have been consistent, but for most seasons under his leadership we'd spend the first 4 months worrying that we'd be relegated and the next 4 months dragging ourselves up for Europe with one of the best records in the league. Don't forget this season is the first in many where we've actually started brightly.

We'd also beat teams like Man City and fail against the likes of Reading or Norwich quite regularly....exactly the same pattern you lay at Martinez door.

I happen to believe Whelan on "other offers" re: Martinez, anyone capable of reading between the lines sees his work at Swansea and Wigan without resource as unique.

The only downside him coming here and doing well is Real Madrid or similar laughing at Kenwright and snaffling him as soon as.

Mind you whoever we get that will happen if they win something - fucking desperate it is.

I am certainly not trying to unduly put Martinez down.

Reading into todays reports, I am really really scared that the idiot in charge of our club will appoint a nobody without managerial experience to the hot-seat. Just because they happen to have some link to the club.

Its entirely possible that Everton will be competing with Man Utd next season if DM struggles. The Man U squad is actually not as good as Chelsea or City and you can easily imagine them finishing about where we are now.

On that basis, allowing DM to have a say in his replacement, is akin to asking turkeys to vote for christmas. Its entirely in his interests to prevent us from providing any kind of threat, which would make it easier for him to get his mits on our better players and also continue the myth that he actually did a magnificent job for us that no-one else can replicate.

I am not saying it keeps you up, but when I think of our great escapes in the 90s, the crowd definitely had an effect. But, then again, Wimbledon had one man and a dog and stayed up for ages, albeit the Stoke City of the late 80s to 90s, and played dour football.

I will refrain from your re-writing of history because comparisons with Moyes are pretty pointless. He has gone, what really really matters is who we select as the next manager.
There are plenty of candidates most of whom are not worth the risk. There are actually many worse than Martinez but that does not change my opinion that he is not good enough and does not possess a track record worthy of managing our club.
One from Pereria, Poyet, Favre or Mackay for me.