Moyes explains development rationale

I am not a Moyes hater by the way. I just hate some of the "Trust me I know what I am doing" statements that he spouts out every so often. Some of us have been watching Everton when he were a spotty faced Glaswegian kicking lumps out of more skilful players. We know a player when we see one Mr Moyes and we don't have to be on 5 million a year or whatever you are on to recognise that.

Youth players can take positives from that, especially when they see those who do go one to make the first team.

To understand the thinking of Moyes is sometimes VERY difficult, and with regards to our youngsters I think Moyes needs to learn a lot from Wenger and Ferguson.

Moyes is not the ultimate manager we all would like to think, he lacks balls when attacking and he lacks balls when to support youngsters all the way! That is my final conclusion after he sent Barkley out to Wednesday, when we needed him here to cover for Gibson if Juinior is not fit enough yet.

How much our midfield suffers when Neville is in there is for all to be seen, and now that Gibson is out that will only become worse. The effect of having Neville in midfield will cost us games, Barkley would cost us less games during a whole season, that I am sure of, because Neville is a defender and his passing sucks, he has no movement left, I think it is time he quit playing in midfield.

Here is me hoping Barkley will do great for Wednesday, and that he will explode in his new role.

He played him at the start of last season when you would imagine managers pick what they think their strongest 11 is cos theres been no games to base form on. Barkley was banished from the first team as soon as he made a mistake which he is almost admitting to. When you consider Cahill's form last year there was no excuse not for giving him more game time. He simply does not trust kids no matter how much he tries to kid us he gives kids a chance.

Maybe when Ross actually payed a competetive match in the Prem that Moyes could see he wasn't quite as ready as he thought he was.

I have no problem with that but it can't be a coincidence that he only thought it once Barkley made a mistake. You have to accept that when playing kids but it seems Moyes doesn't want to accept it even if the lad is good enough to play.

And apply that same logic to Vellios, Duffy, McAleny... Ossie, Vic, Vaughan, Coleman, Rodwell, Chadwick, Rooney...

Yeah! Chadwick!

Barkley was restricted to only 6 appearances by the useless Cahill.

Vellios was kept out of the team by the even more useless Saha.

Duffy was motm in 2 of the 3 games he played before being dropped in favour of a right back playing centre half.

Ossy was about 23 when he started playing for Everton which isn't young.

Coleman wasn't that young either but in his first full season when he was playing well he was, without fail, always the first player to be brought off, even if other players were playing worse.

No one forces Moyes to play anyone, and he chose those players when he did. So perhaps we can agree on 'restricted integration' being the Moyes philosophy.

Fabregas has been playing since he was 18 and he isn't getting injured all the time. Some players get injured more than most and I doubt its down to how much first team football they play when younger, just because someone isn't playing in the first team doesn't mean there not playing football still.

Nick

I don't want the likes of Barkley to be playing every game but what I do want to see is seeing them replace senior players who don't deserve to be in the team.

Its expected that kids will go through dips in form but it should be less acceptable for them performances from senior players. Young players can't get near the team even when some senior players put in consistent poor performances.

Hmmm.... anyway, the RS are losing. Back to the game...

Not only do I agree with him I appreciate him actually explaining what he's doing.

Time for a nap.

He saw Jagielka in training and thought he was a mid-fielder. Something in training makes him think that Heitinga is also a mid-fielder. I don't know what Phil Neville does but I reckon he'd keep Messi out of Moyes's side. In fact,while Neville has use of two legs I doubt a young player will get a chance. It took an eternity before Coleman got a shot wide right. Baines is a better left back than Lescott but Moyes took quite a bit of convincing. One must accept that Mucha shows fuck all in training(otherwise Howard would have been dropped some time ago). so why is he still here.

Moyes is an ultra conservative coach with favourites he is extremely reluctant to drop.The notion that he sees players in training and is therefore always right is ludicrous. To send Duffy out on loan with Heitinga on the bench and Jagielka starting seems incomprehensible,The message this man sends to young players must be soul destroying.

For instance..'To send Duffy out on loan with Heitinga on the bench and Jagielka starting seems incomprehensible...'

Do you mean, that you think it is best for Duffy's development to sit on the bench...because he is clearly not going to be playing above Jags, Heitinga or Distin. How many 20 year olds cbs are there playing in the premier league? He clearly would benefit from a run in lower league football, and he is not ready for us.

I don't understand the notion, that because a youth player has one half decent game, that he should all of a sudden be an intrinsic part of the side. Barkley, did show some skill in one match...and then he showed his naivity and weaknesses in others which followed. I've seen other people see it..other people comment about his performances in reverse games..but a disturbing amount seem to think he should be playing for us, week in, week out. There is an argument he should be in the squad at the moment for sure, and if we get an injury, we could be in trouble (although we could recall him), but he isn't ready for first team football. And yes, sticking a player in at a level they are not ready can have a damaging mental effect. It's not a risk-free situation.

With respect to Jags..how many times has he played in midfield of late Andy? and Jags, for information purposes, played midfield for Sheffield United on occasions. It wasn't invented by Moyes. And Andy, what do you mean we have to accept Mucha shows fuck all in training? when ever he has played, he has shown himself to be a worse goalie than Howard. And why is he here still? well...possibly it has something to do with a financial situation which does not allow us to pay a transfer fee for a sub goalie.

Also Andy, your final comment 'The message this man sends to young players must be soul destroying' - Utter bullshit. Let's take the cases of Barkley and Duffy. Duffy is 20, he is a long term replacement for Distin...he is arguably the fourth choice cb at a top half premier league club. Oo it must be so soul destroying for him to go and play in the Championship(presumably), instead of sitting on the bench. And Barkley is 18, and he is gone to play championship football on a short, not long term, deal, which suggests he will have a part to play as the season progresses.

I wonder how Wilshere coped with going on loan? actually, he, whilst a bigger talent than Barkley, compares quite well. Talented, but naive, he needed time away from Arsenal to grow...and so does Barkley. Many top players have gone on loan and benefited, and Barkley will as well. Whether he becomes a top player for us, a top player in the league, or becomes a championship player in the future...time on loan will benefit him.

I'm struggling to remember a young player who has been developed by EFC and that has become a truly great player here.

(Osman is not a GREAT player, he is at best an average player who should be a second stringer albeit for Moyes's favouritism.)

I maybe a skeptic but I see the loan system being used to save on the wage bill at our club. Man Utd lend players out who are not needed at the time BUT they already have at least two players for every position.

Compare the benches of other clubs with ours. A few seasons ago, our bench was an absolute creche. We consistently lend out a whole bevy of players and bring in very few.

Jim, I take on board what you say but ,for me, goal keeper is the one position where a run in the side is required. I don't think even David Moyes can know how good Mucha is but he was an international player. I think there is a balance between accepting that all players make mistakes from time to time and sticking by out of form players. I think that Moyes was very intolerant of Barkley. Maybe that is the right approach with young players but not in my view.

Brendan, okay, I went back too far. Now, any chance I can be considered for the MOB starting line up? If not I;ll be off in January.

If Moyes dropped Jelavic for the derby, played Anichebe instead who scored the only goal, would he have made the right decision? I think the whole world would regard that as foolish even if it did work.

Yes, Hibbert came in and did a good job and we won the game but did Duffy deserve to be dropped? My point is that young players (mostly) only get picked when Moyes has no other options and quickly get dropped as soon as a senior player is available. Even if that senior player has been playing shit and the youngster has been playing well.

Depends on the reasoning for the decision. Everyone was criticizing him for throwing Fellaini up front and playing Neville in midfield against United, but it was absolutely the right tactical decision then to take full advantage of United's injury problems in central defence.

Against City, he played Hibbert specifically to "do a job" on an individual player - something probably more suited to a more experienced player than Duffy. Again, a reasonable tactical decision and one that worked.

That's very different than just "dropping Jelavic for the derby". If he dropped Jelavic because Liverpool had some central defensive issue that made them particularly vulnerable to Anichebe's style of play then, yeah, it could legitimately be the "right" decision.

Of course, all those "right" decisions depend entirely on the end result. But the tactical decision would still have been a logical one based on a certain judgement of the match situation.

If Moyes did bring Hibbert in to the team because he thought he could do a particular job that Duffy couldn't then fair enough. I can see the reason behind that decision even if I don't agree with it but it is just one example of Moyes not trusting kids.

Do you have an explaination for Barkley not getting near the pitch despite Cahill playing every game and being shite in every game or choosing McFadden over him?

Or Vellios not getting a game despite scoring 3 goals in the few minutes he spent on the pitch. All the while Saha started every game,didn't score and walked around the pitch with body language that screamed "I can't be arsed with this".

In terms of Moyes record with young players I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. There can be no douting that he is prepared to give younger players a shot as shown by starts for Barkley, Vellios, Rodwell and Duffy over the last year. But equally I don't think it can be doubted that he often errs on the the side of caution and prefers to place his trust in experienced pros a lot of the time. I think he probably has good reasons for both these sets of action...

To me, Moyes is saying that Ross is nearly ready and maybe in a month's time he will be. He is only 18 so really, what is the problem with that? And I think it's admirable that Moyes is taking the time to explain his thinking.

I know some of you are impatient to see a new wonderkid, but you are probably the same ones that will then be moaning that it's inevitable he will leave for Man Utd. Once he turns in some good performances. In other words, soe of you just love a moan and a whinge! Just admit it.

Letting another manager put him in and tell him the same things will help Ross fully appreciate he still has some development to achieve and that there isn't a personality issue with Moyes.

If he comes back not having been successful he and others will perhaps have a bit more patient, if he sets e world on fire, Moyes will put him in, it's a win/win.

My own thoughts are that he should play behind the striker, making best use of his biggest asset, his creativity, particularly his ability to see and deliver the killer pass. I still can't believe that Moyes played an out of form Cahill in that position whilst both Osman and Barkley could have supplied Jelavic with a far superior service.

It's good that he will be playing that role for Sheffield Weds (according to the forums) and that he showed good movement, he's always got confidence on the ball perhaps too much for playing deeper in the Premiership. He'll still find it tough in the Championship but Dave Jones should help him to develop and flourish. Don't like Moyes much but I think that he's done the right thing this time.

Should come back a much more developed player and ready to replace Fellani next season once he's moved on - almost inevitable and can't blame him wanting to play at the highest level. Once Ross is fully developed as a player I can see him in the box to box role but it will be a couple of seasons yet.

It's also all well and good saying that Moyes should play him now. The kid isn't that experienced. One mistake at premier league will sometimes cost you all three points. You don't want to knock all the confidence out of the kid and also chance also having fans getting on his back.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Moyes approach, generally we need to play down the hype surrounding the kid. He has had bad injuries and needs to learn to develop without pressure.

Barkley's day will come and we need him to replace Fellaini when he leaves next year. Moyes is doing the right thing with him though, he is exceptonal but it's no good if he makes mistakes.

Osman was the best English player in his age group all of the way through his development and Frank Lampard said he was the best player he's ever seen. Played in his coorrect position he has been a top class player for the club despite the often ridiculous criticism aimed at him here. An average player he is not and whether he's great or not depends on how you subjectively define it. Represented England at every age group and good enough to get into the National team now is pretty great for me for a local lad who has been a model pro and great role model. He has been forever let down by his lack of physical stature but he can be a lovely little player and he is playing well now in a very tough league.

For the record, Scholes played up front, whereas Gerrard played some games at right back.

"Look at the Likes of Scholes, Giggs, Micheal Owen, Gerrard, Rooney, etc — all started playing regular first team football at the ages of 16/17. Never did them any harm did it? "

Paul Scholes didn't make his United debut until less than two months before his 20th birthday. Or the Giggs became a regular first team starter in the 1992-93 season, when he was 19. Gerrard was well past his 18th birthday before he made his Liverpool debut, and didn't become a regular until the following season. Even the youngest regular of those you mention, Owen, didn't play first team football until he was 17, and didn't become a regular until the following season. Bale played 24 times in two years for Spurs, and didn't become a first team regular until he was 20.

So actually the *only* player you list as part of your argument who was given "regular first team football at the ages of 16/17" was given that regular first team football by David Moyes. Ross Barkley made his first team debut earlier than most of the players you mention, and that's despite losing a year of development to a triple leg break.

Doesn't mean that Moyes is a genius when it comes to youth development. But at least try and get the facts right when trying to "prove" your theory that he's far more conservative than other managers who've brought youngsters through.

I doubt Moyes will play Duffy much this season so he will also go out on loan at some point. Moyes leaves it to other teams to develop his own players. He does not trust that he can do the job correctly by giving Duffy,Barkley and Vellios bit parts to play during a long season.

I admire Wenger, he just throws his youngsters out to the field whenever he wants. He has faith, long term faith. Wenger is probably even better then Ferguson in building youngsters up into very good first team players.

Moyes is lost when it comes to Wenger in working with youth. Can we all just agree that Moyes has a lot to learn before he is as good as Wenger?

Most young players don't make it. We only get to know and remember the ones that do. We all hope that the next shiny new player will be great, but I have seen too many come and go to know that this is very rare. And no rarer at Everton than anywhere else.

I have, and the phrase 'one trick pony' comes to mind. Given a run in the Prem would expose him, possibly quite dramatically. A loan off to Sheff Weds sounds good to me. He has so much to learn. Humility and team work might be a part of that. I hope it does him good.

If he does brilliantly and the loan is extended, or he comes back and doesn't get used, we will know it is the manager who has problems with the player. If he starts slowly but continues to improve then we will know he had stuff to learn. If he gains confidence from holding his own, learns from whatever mistakes he is likely to make and then is brought back to feature for us then it will be mission accomplished and pats on back all round.

An earlier post suggested that maybe hearing the same thing from another manager may reinforce things for Barkley, which seems like a smart thing to do if the lad has gotten a little full of himself.

All the comparisons with other clubs records with youngsters falls down on a number of points. Firstly, you need to compare managers rather than clubs as it is more likely to be a manager's preference rather than club policy. Secondly, you need to consider each clubs circumstances. Smaller squads, less money to bring in seasoned pros are two factors that are likely to lead to the need to try youngsters. Some of it is going to come down to whether a manager is playing his youngsters because he has faith in them, or whether he is down to trying a last resort in the hope he rolls a 'double six'.