Moyes squanders another cup chance

My one query is Mucha. I don't know why we bother. He's not very good and looks likely to leave the club soonish. Going through the notions seems almost pointless.

Anyway, let's see what happens. It's a wet night here in Leeds!

I think there's a few that don't fancy the conditions!

45 to go; plenty of time!!

Positive note is Oviedo who looks like he can play. Otherwise Leeds are good value for the lead.

Mucha is not a patch on Ruddy who should have been kept.

Seems to be a common thread about improving the team, and yet we are all now saying we were useless tonight and the players we think should be in the team were ones which let us down.

It used to be a case of being dropped to the reserves meant players tried even harder to prove they needed to be in the 1st XI. Did that really apply to the likes of Mucha, Naismith, Junior, Gueye tonight? Or did they simply prove what the coaches/manager see every day, that you can hide one of them in the team if you have an injury but not play them all as they are not good enough?

It just shows he hasn't learned from his previous cup exits were he has selected a weakened team from the off and the opposition have got a foot hold in the game and gone on to win.

I understand he wants to give players a rest but that game was always going to be a tough one, surely it would have been better to play full strength from the off and take players off once the bame was won.

In my humble opinion I think his positional awareness is poor, he continually gets the wrong side of his man, gives away cheap free kicks in dangerous places (semi final last year and tonight), ball watches and cannot tackle. Not too promising for a full back......and in short he's a liability. In January our top priority has to be a right back as I just don't see Seamus as the answer once Hibbo retires.

On a wet and windy night do you seriously play Gueye, Naismith and Junior in midfield!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moyes loves a cup fuck up but they wanted it more so fair play to them

and as I live and work in Leeds I am getting a lot of txts and LOL messages...

Thanks Lads, tomorrow at work should be a right old laugh

CUNTS

That was dire. And I'm sure everyone will come out and have a go at Moyes for the team selection. Easy to do in hindsight; didn't see too many negative comments before the game - blooding a youngster and a couple of newer arrivals, attacking 4-4-2 lineup. Certainly a lineup that should have had more than enough to overcome a mediocre championship side.

How much do team changes impact individual performances? We had a weakened team, but that was massively exacerbated by the fact that none of them seemed like they gave a toss about the game. Our stars from the Swansea game were among the worst culprits. Fellaini was terrible, and lazy. Mirallas was rubbish. Anichebe back to his infuriating worst.

Moyes certainly has a role to play in terms of motivation, but players also have a role in motivating themselves. If you're playing a teenager making his debut in midfield, the senior players should be stepping up to help that youngster through his game. Instead, they hung Junior out to dry.

I'm still critical of Moyes' selection. A weakened or much changed team is OK in certain situations, but a wet evening at Leeds United isn't one of those times. Combine that with a set of players who apparently couldn't care less about this tournament, or believe their own hype, or both, and you get a really terrible performance.

Fucking disgraceful against a shite team that showed twice the desire we did, he should be ashamed. Forget the pen we should have had or the Naismith sitter, too little too late, fucking cunts!

Why squad rotate when we don't have a big squad? Cocky prick attitude, Moyes, an inflexible tactical bastard.

Fuck off!!!

And David Moyes should start taking the opposition seriously -
otherwise we shall end the season on a low!

PS What does Round offer by way of support?

The Anichebe pen was ludicrously obvious. What can you say? Shocking.

Mirallas was poor but at least he tried - Fellaini didn't. Why?

Defensively Johhny was very poor and looked like he thought it was a training match and as usual Coleman is all huff and puff with no end product. Leeds had done their homework on Distin - let him have the ball at his feet and he's knackered -how many times was he left as the out ball and hoof or to one of them was the end result. Oviedo tried hard but had nothing in front of him and Mucha inspires no confidence in me let alone our back 4.

Playing Gueye, Naismith and Junior all at the same time was a poor decision as was moving Felli back to a holding position. Hindsight might be wonderful for us but he gets paid £5M per year to show foresight and pick a tem to win a game. Yet another season with fuck all whilst all the cronies laud Moyes for doing so well with 'poor little Everton'. Well I'm sick of that label and until we get someone with balls to try a win something we will get more of this shit with some irrelevant wins in between.

a) Putting in 2 new lads for debuts on a wet and windy night away at rough-house Leeds was VERY ambitious.

b) Fellaini will never be a holding midfielder

c) Nasimith does not look good enough to me

d) Just throwing on Jelly was not a plan B - we ended up lumping it again

e) Distin and Jonny H do not look solid to me

f) I don't trust Mucha as far as I could throw him - he does not instil confidence.

g) I feel for our lads who went there.

h) Whatever happened to 'don't change a winning team'?

The Leeds side were missing 6 first team players and out-fought us in every position.

It is the players on the pitch to blame tonight - not the manager.

Pienaar: make the team better
Phil: cannot pass, cannot defend
Jelly: 1 shot??!

We got hustled.

The whole team was flat but I think Fellaini has to take the brunt of the blame, he looked like a man who was a booking away from missing a final. Walking round the pitch not get involved in anything. I'm a big Fellaini fan but thats the sort of game were he should be looking to show how much better he is than everyone else not being a big shit house.

I don't understand Moyes's team selection? Don't get me wrong I would have made changes but when you consider the strong team he put out at home in the last round why would he put a weaker one out away to Leeds?

I was glad to see Junior get a run out even if he was quiet and Oviedo looked to eager to impress without doing much, hopefully they both settle down.

As for Gueye, I just don't see what he offers. I can't see him ever making it in the Prem so its pointless giving him games and he's never even had an ok game.

Naismith best in very poor form because what i've seen of him so far he looks like a back up player at best.

But hang on too for a mo. Sorry, there's a bunch of factors in the brew there: debuts, fitness, not yet minted young blue elves. With all of that, this was a risky team to pick. It might - might - have passed muster at say MK Dons or hmmm Chesterfield and its silly steeple, but not Leeds, nope, not Leeds.

Moral of the tale: too many risks by someone not known for taking 'em. The gaffer picked the team, set them up, and then watched miffed from the touch-lines, hands up in air in befuddled hard-done-by disbelief more often than big Vic. Deal with it, admit it, take it on board, below par shifts all over the park, but Moyes got it wrong. The team HE picked and HE set up had a touch of underestimating the Ecky-Thumps and dare I say it, arrogance about it. (Love the comments that the players were a little on the arrogant side this evening; damn man, they were too green to be arrogant for the most part.) Moyes made the wrong call, Fair dues, changing things at half-time - nice one - after learning from the team he selected, but in all honesty, our marish 1st half had already put a swagger in Leeds and I wonder if Jelly was 100 per cent.

Ho hum, tonight's basic mistakes do not in any shape or form detract from what has been a heart-lifting Prem start, No mistakes on Saturday; big ones tonight. I think we'll batter Saaarrrfffffaaammpppttttaaan on Saturday meself; absolutely batter them. And sadness at missing out on this cup will linger but the tide is turning one and all, the tide is turning, for now.

Gueye didn't do much, Oveido likewise, but that's a tough debut for him. Naismith didn't play well, but he is still recovering from injury. Mirallas didn't build on his good performance at Swansea either.

All in all, an evening to forget.

Not impressed with Naismith - looks very lightweight.

Moyes made 6 changes. But these were in all the key positions. Breaking up the left triangle of Pienaar-Baines-Fellaini was guaranteed to destroy most of our attacking potential. Playing round with the centre backs was always going to reveal uncertainty between them. Add to that an inexperienced midfield combination of Junior and Gueye then you're only asking for trouble.

That said key individual performances were dire. Fellaini and Mirallas were very poor. And for me Heitinga just doesn't cut it in English football.

Oh, and we badly missed Osman's linking, keep the ball moving role in the middle of the park.

In all, a disgraceful mix of managerial incompetence and unnecessary risk-taking, and awful performances on the pitch. And Moyes says he desperately wants to win a trophy. Well there was one up for grabs and he turned his back on it.

We've no fucking chance of winning the Prem so cups are the only route to success yet his selections always blow it.

We should have kept this momentum going by playing the same line-up from Saturday. Why play second and third choice players just to give them a game?

This is a cup comp so there's no second chance.

Leeds deserved it, although Mason was poor. How the hell did he not give the penalty at the end? The cunt couldn't have had a better view.

That was pretty much the side I would have put out. Two very soft goals, extra time on the training ground needed. Must do better.

When he starts thinking it's a recipe for disaster.

He's stumbled onto something this year so the obvious thing to do is throw it in the bin when the chance of winning something pops up.

Fucking idiot.

EPL standing is everything this season.

Same thing happens this weekend, then I'll be pissed.

Strength in depth just isn't there.

It's not about qualifying for Europe (we probably wouldn't be good enough to win the Europa League anyway) - It's about trying to win something THIS season.

The cups are our only chance of winning anything and there we are - end of September and only one chance left. Not good odds Moyesy lad!

He takes the blame for this. Yeah, the players were not good enough on the night but, we had a better team and we should have played it!!!

I care more about winning a couple of cup games here than league games against Swansea and Southampton.

Chasing 4th is a big gamble, that we will struggle to break. The riches are huge, but the failure adds to the agony of achieving nothing. With no Europa league or league cup it probably strengthens our champions league chances. However, seeing everton lift a cup would give me far more pleasure than 4th. I don't care if it's mickey mouse or not. Football is about silverware, something that a side with Mucha in will never see.

And in any event, why shouldn't it have been possible to both beat Leeds and Southampton. Surely you're not saying that was too big a task for poor old Everton.

Let's move on, view it as one less distraction in our pursuit of Champions League football, and stick it up The Saints at the weekend.

I can understand why Moyes used the squad, but it totally backfired in the end. And my worst fear is that it affects Saturday now.

Naismith had a terrible game. The first goal is his fault with a dreadful pass. He didnt control a single ball all night. Neither did hardly anyone else. The ball stuck with Leeds a lot better than with our lads.

With hindsight we should have started with our best team, got a lead then rested some perhaps.

Anyways, cant believe we still havent won the League Cup for another year.

The long and short of it is that beyond our first 13 or so players we are a bit weak...

I really hate to say it but Seamus Coleman was poor, in fact most of the team were poor and let Moyes down badly. If I had travelled to Leeds on a night like that to witness that level of effort I would have much more to say.

Then when the starting 11 was announced I definitely knew it wasnt going to be our night.

If we wanted to win a cup why start with a team of strangers.

Most fans wanted to give Junior, Oviedo and perhaps Velios a run out but only after the game was safe.

I have always defended Moyesy but the selection was rank amateur and it showed.

Junior was poor, which begs the question.. why send Barkley on loan when he looks miles ahead.

Selection was a gamble which didn't pay off.. we had no shape and sod all in midfield.

Unbelieveable.

"Why does this twat Moyes always make changes when we playing the Cups?"

"...you could tell Moyes was not arsed with the side he picked so god knows why he was moaning".....

Get a grip guys, do you honestly think DM sent his team out with a brief to just go through the motions - the players fucked up on the night, no dispute - i"m betting on a reaction and a half come Saturday.

As an aside, Henry Winter has tweeted that our starting line-up was the first one that has featured no Englishmen since the 1890's - not sure how many Belgians we had then....

If we play Leeds 10 times they will be lucky to beat us once — IF WE TAKE IT SERIOUSLY!!

Moyes does this too often — he's the master of shooting himself in the foot in the money games.

He reverted to being a tool tonight.

It's the beginning of the season and we feel the need to rest players already!

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, we're not going to be playing too many games this season. We're not in Europe, were now out of the League Cup, and if this philosophy is carried forward into the FA Cup we'll be out of that one post haste also!!

I've said it in posts last season, if you get on a good run then keep the faith. I bet none of the players playing want a rest for crying out loud.

Certainly not this early in the season. Another big blunder, regardless of the stature of this particular tournament.

I will not be surprised if this leads to a poor run now. Coaching, it's so complex and difficult!

League!
League!!
League!!!

Maybe the FA Cup as a treat for good results.

"James Flynn (54), you're wrong; the PL is not everything. Far from it".

Wrong. Our standing in the EPL is everything this season or has our success since January made you forget what group owns the Club? We HAVE TO finish up high come May. And since Moyes can't simply wave to the bench for the next group of top talent, he has to pick and choose. He chose Sunderland of the EPL over Championship Leeds. I don't like us losing either, but am fine with Davey's priority.

"If it was you'd quickly find Everton's crowds sinking fast".

By ones. Starting with you, apparently. Oh ye of little faith.

"Because all we are doing in the PL is making up the numbers".

Ye ARE of little faith, Steve. Buck up.

"And in any event, why shouldn't it have been possible to both beat Leeds and Southampton. Surely you're not saying that was too big a task for poor old Everton"

I'm saying we don't have the depth to go full force every game. But we do have plenty enough to focus on the Table. We can match any club in the EPL any time.

Not to mention we were playing a second league team. Moyes gave a bunch of players a shot today. How do you think they did? Can't just blame a manager. He doesn't play.

Winning is quite important in this game.

We have 4 players in our team who can influence how others around them play. They are Baines, Pienaar, Osman and Gibson. Others such as Fellaini and Jelavic can be good but rely on others to service them. None of the first four played and thus we had no creativity whatsoever. As we saw in an abysmal first half Fellaini's days as aholding midfielder are over, slow, lethargic, positionally inept, he was dominated all over the pitch and did nothing to help Junior out. Naismith and Mirallas as we know aren't bad players, neither is Anichebe as he showed on Saturday,but without the correct midfield ushering them into attacking positions they were worse than useless. You could see the difference once Pienaar came on and started passing and moving, that's what him Baines and Osman do every week and lay on chances for Fellaini and Jelavic. They even made Anichebe look good upfront.

Moyes dropped all his playmakers, dropped his keeper and stuck inexperience all over the pitch. As a result far too many players that rely on the footballing brains of the team to help them out each week were just lost. I still can't believe Fellaini's showing, terrible. This game just showed who has been pulling thier weight and who's been along for the ride in the first few weeks of the season. It seems the farcical five or whatever it was, along with Bainaar are carrying this team. But I guess next week no one will have learnt from this and integral players such as Osman and Hibbert will be getting criticised once again. Do you really think that shower would have happened had Howard Osmn Neville and Hibbert started?

I'm one of the 5,000 who travelled to the game and am compelled to state that I feel absolutely robbed.

How can you make such drastic changes to a team that is on a good run at this early stage of the season? Once again a winning formation on a decent run, notwithstanding West Brom, is broken up for no good reason as far as I'm concerned. End result, disaster.

It's the beginning of the season and you feel the need to rest players already! Why?

We're not going to be playing too many games this season. We're not in Europe, were now out of the League Cup, and if this philosophy is carried forward into the FA Cup we'll be out of that one post haste also!!

Is coaching that complex? if you get on a good run then keep the faith. I bet none of the players playing want a rest for crying out loud.

Certainly not this early in the season. A blunder, regardless of the stature of this particular tournament.

I will not be surprised if this leads to a poor run now. Oh and by the way you should consider reimbursing those of us who wasted their time tonight. You might also like to know that I spent $3,000 in May bringing my sons to the Wembly semi, only to witness a similar poor display and capitulation. I now live in the USA so when I do get to live matches I don't expect to be short changed.

'Don't care' attitude, if you please. We have a thin squad after major silverware this year and the CL next. Or did you envy the Shite's silverware haul last season?

And when this all works out for us next May? Arrogant, Know-it-All Prick James Flynn, if you please.

You're talking bollocks... not only did we have different playing staff, we had a different formation. It was quite obvious the system was to blame as much as the players who were lost within it.

Second half we changed the system and looked much better. It was nothing to do with Osman and Neville not starting (the latter being utter rubbish when he came on).

If you'd have said Pienaar and Baines you might have had a point... but no, we got beat because the weak links in our team didn't start. Do me a favour.

The "we're gonna win the league" chant is ironic banter. We have absolutely no chance of doin that... So please have a bit of sense and realise that these competitions offer our only hope of silverware.. and try and understand the justifiable anger.

Those who believe that Moyes' is the best thing since sliced bread should look at the evidence placed before them. Swansea and Aston Villa have barely competed against the blues and United were less than impressive.

The two teams who have competed WBA and Leeds have found us wanting and have deservedly beaten Everton.

If David Moyes has no intention of signing a new contract in the summer , he should do the decent thing and go right now! So that any new manager has the chance to assess the current squad and decide who to keep and who to buy in January.

There was not single player who looked as if they were hurt by the result or the performance and that simply is not good enough for Everton or indeed any PL team.

Players like Leon Osman and Tony Hibbert may have limitations but you can't fault them for passion and commitment , both sadly lacking from any player in a blue shirt tonight.

This season may indeed end up being a momentous one , but on tonight's evidence, it could also turn out to be a bridge too far for David Moyes and his backroom staff.

The jury is still out, but DM has to pledge his future to the club immediately or leave gracefully, uncertainty will be used by some of the squad to perform like they did tonight and that could spell disaster for Everton.

If ever a tie was made for Neville being on from the start, it was this one. Was the boss worried about losing him for a few games? Hindsight I know, but the starting line-up was inept. Leeds are a buzzing Champs side looking for promotion. No pushover.

I can actually see positives in this debacle, which I will ponder upon, for example: Gueye being hooked at half-time. A player who belongs in the top level as much as I do. Injuries permitting, we might never see him in a starting line-up again. On the subs bench neither. One goal I saw, but have never seen anything else. So go on lad, show us what you can do. As usual, sod all, or less.

Our margin for error is thin. The choice being between losing today and whipping Sunderland this weekend, I'm with Moyes. The weekend's more important.

By the by, "The "we're gonna win the league" chant is ironic banter. We have absolutely no chance of doin that..".

Watched the game on ESPN here. "We're gonna win the league" may have been ironic but cetrtainly not banter. I could hear every word of the chant. And we have 'no chance' when the League Table indicates so. We're in 3rd place place presently.

Overall impressions - Anichebe continues to look encouraging; Felliani had his worst game in years; Gueye was completely annonymous - unfortunately I'm not sure he'll ever have the pace or skill to cut it as a top winger; Naismith's really lacking in confidence - he's been usurped very quickly by Mirallas and needs a goal to feel part of the team; we are even more reliant on the Baines/Pienaar combo than I previously imagined; and finally central defence has gone from our greatest strength to an area of real worry.

We should beat Southampton at the weekend. We should still have a good season, and with a bit of luck/Arsenal traditional mid-season dip in form a Champions League spot is within our grasp. But anyone dismissing the League Cup is simply wrong. I think we've never really respected the competition because we've never won it - which of course is exactly why we ought to respect it. Big teams win trophies - any trophies, all trophies. Winning becomes a habit to them. In the last decade, United have won it 3 times; Liverpool and Chelsea twice each - it's what the big boys do, and we should too if we want to be counted among them.

The EPL games are the important ones this season. To even pretend we can retain our best players, we need to get into the CL. Getting bounced out tonight means fewer games to play for our best players.

ps: We are playing Southampton this weekend.

Fellaini should have been spared tonight. We should have kept the same defensive players that won against Swansea.

Overall I cannot blame Moyes for this loss, he has no back-up players to choose from at all. The players that played tonight have hardly played any first-team games, is that a factor in our loss? Of course it is, how can we expect Junior to perform while he has just been recently been injured. Naismith just seems to be a bad signing, we cannot afford to wait on him to come good again!!!!

I am angry at Moyes for letting go of so many youngsters though. Our Under -21 side is suffering from it. As did we tonight when we had to pick several players from the U-21 side. because we have NO back-up at all for any first team player, not really! Tonight showed how weak and ultra thin our squad is.

Moyes is to blame for letting to many youngsters go, could have used Baxter tonight as an example. It is a hard way to land after the win against Swansea, but let this loss be a constant reminder that any injury to our first team will cost us dearly! We have no back-up players, only youngsters, and they are not good enough to be back-up players yet!

I vividly remember your claims on here of us "smashing the red shirts" at Wembley last season, and look where that got us. I blame you entirely for our capitulation that day because of your comments prior to the match. I'm afraid I am now going to have to hold you fully accountable if and when we fail to win the league and / or achieve Champions League qualification this year.

And surely, even the most optimistic person in the world would not expect us to take three points off Sunderland at the weekend when we're not even playing them. Our failure to do so now though, again, will be your fault.

We didn't take this game seriously. It looked unprofessional throughout the first half. Certain players just don't get that EVERY time you pull on our blue shirt you must give 100%, nothing else is good enough. Fellani has had one awesome games this season but also played at West Brom and now Leeds like he relly didn't give a shit, and I mean REALLY didn't care. He abandoned a youngster to his fate and though Junior looted very, very, unlike the reports I've read, the lad was left to flounder by hugely well paid professionals sauntering around like Leeds should just give in from the KO. Oviedo looks to be worth time and support but is a very long way off sound cover for the best left back in Europe. Baines is a hard act to back up though and this appalling performance just emphasises that he is simply unsellable at ANY price.

Heitinga was terrible and his misplaced clearances cost us dear, long side another frustrating show from Coleman who really just isn't quite good enough. The skipper was aweful when he came on and Gueye has for me had enough chances. Overall this was a shameful display and yes it does matter, particularly to the amazing 5000 who travelled.

I'm very nervous about the Southampton game because though I expect virtually a full strength eleven to start, minus the much missed Gibson, I just don't know for sure how we will react if they get at us like Leeds did ? We could easily win by six or lose one nil, it feels that uncertain now......

Then turn on jay Leno or letterman or whoever, safe in the newly found knowledge that you clearly know jack shit about Football!!

Take advice from an Evertonian of over 40 years standing... tonight mattered!! If you think it didn't, I suggest you stick to wearing helmets and pads!!!

And as you clearly don't know your Southamptons from your Sunderlands, try looking them up on a map... or a fixture list!!!

We demand that young players be tried and that Moyes be more flexible and try new formations and we apparently got that last night and we were found wanting. Saturday's another game and a far more important one for me than the irrelevance that was played out last night at Elland Road.

Monty Python lives.

Probably stating the obvious here but Moyes has nobody to blame but himself for this disaster – take the plaudits, Davey, when you get it right but you'd better put your hands up say "mea culpa" for this one.

And don't start me on the refereeing decisions this season; I'm starting to get paranoid and its only September...

Moyes FAULT - End Of!!!!!!

Moyes picked 11 players from a Premier League squad to beat 11 players from a Champo squad. He isn't to blame. They should have won, but they didn't.

Obviously variables play into it. The weather was attrocious which couldn't help the couple of debutants. Some brand new combinations that might take a little longer to fruit. The lower league clubs have a knack of rising for the occasion in the cup as it means more to them financially. Not to mention maybe six changes is a few too many at once, but, as stated above, they play for an EPL club; they should have won.

It's not disastrous, it's an eye opener that they either need to work with the players differently, or get rid of some. But who do you get rid of? Junior was new and had no help from Fellaini, so which one of them can you axe? Gueye has had a sprinkle of games and then gets service from a midfield that is apparently the root of all evil, so how can we judge. He WILL be good - for another team I fear.

Coleman is nearly in his mid-20s and has been used like a reserve his whole career, so is understandably still playing like one - a longer loan would have been of benefit to him.

Basically, Moyes didn't get it right, and the players certainly didn't get it right, but if we'd have played another two or three rounds in the Cream Crackers Cup of whatever the hell it's called now with our strongest squad and been sitting 9th-14th come Christmas, everyone would be complaining about that.

I didn't say that everything was OK because of that. I just pointed out that we weren't the only EPL side who perhaps weren't too concerned about last night's result. Everton's priority is EPL results and I believe that we don't have the squad to sustain good progress on several fronts. I'd say that this was proven big time last night.

End of? I love seeing this. Actually there are many alternative views on why EFC did as they did in last nights game and there is no such thing as "end of" a discussion. Leeds fans are really stupid, they think that they won because they were the best team on the night. End of?

Can`t really say I blame Moyes for this one. I think most people were happy with his starting 11 ahead of the game. Should be very winnable with that side. Alas, the right attitude never showed. Fellaini never dominated the way he should have I this type of game, Heitinga was atrocious.

Mucha 5: not really to be blamed for either goal, but you wonder. What does he actually add to anything?

Coleman 6: Not really as attacking as you would expect him to be. Didn`t shame himself, but most of his crossing was too poor.

Oviedo 5: Not lacking in effort, but he`s obviously miles apart from the sheer class of Baines. Plenty of dangerous, wayward passes.

Heitinga 4: What the fuck were you doing out there? Weak, bad decision-making and a stupid booking.

Distin 6: Did plenty of dangerous and rash things out there, but at least eventually gave us a way back into it with his goal.

Junior 5: Again plenty of running, but much too lightweight. Positioning also off.

Fellaini 6: Very close to a 5 and that is very disappointing for a player that SHOULD lead the line in a game like this. Looked frustrated and unfocused.

Mirallas 4: The invisible man.

Naismith 3: Did he do ONE thing right last night? Gave away their first goal and missed that open header to add to it.

Anichebe 7: Worked admirably and really looked like he could have made a difference if given proper service. Did not succeed with everything, but did ok.

Pienaar 7: Did provide a bit of spark when he came on. Ran willingly and was our most creative player on the night.

Neville 5: Never really made much of a difference.

Jelavic: Not on for a long time.

I can't believe how quick people are prepared to turn on Moyes and the players after the start we've had to the season. If he'd played a full strength side and won I imagine they'd be complaining that we hadn't rested players - heaven forbid if we'd played a full strength side and lost!

When I saw the team sheet I thought 'good for you Moyes '. It didn't work, he tried to salvage it with some strong substitutions and had Mason given that penalty we probably would've won. You can't say Moyes wastnt taking it seriously or bothered by the result, he was fuming at final whistle. Leave him alone you big bullies.

Football is about winning trophies or are we happy to turn into a Newcastle United? Frankly being 6 or 9 points better off because of resting players gives you what? A faint chance of Champions League, where we will get battered.

Additionally, yes I have no problem with Gueye etc playing, as long as it comes from the bench. The team selection might have worked at home, but was certainly not strong enough for an away game at a Championship club. The senior players need to take some responsibility, but the end result came to Moyes under estimating the opposition.

Peter, go have a glass of milk, a biscuit and a lie down with the light off. Have a day off school mate.

Tune in next week for the next installment of the Mason conundrum.

Victor caused trouble again though...his early season performances at least suggest we have a backup for Jelavic. Have to make sure we get back on track against Southampton.

By decimating the team as Moyesy did it destroyed the pattern of play and made the kid's job unnecessarily hard, especially with the fan's expectations given the backdrop of how well we've been playing.

How is the system to blame? It was 4-4-2, how do you get lost in that? Its the most basic formation in the game. There were no square pegs in round holes. We had proven quality out there but absolutely no leadership or responsibility anywhere in the team. Fellaini was the senior player in that midfield and was given the run around by championship players, his 'tackle' leading upto Leeds's first goal was far more powderpuff than anything I've ever seen Osman do. That's contributed to us being knocked out of the cup, the same way him not picking Carrol up did in the FA cup, yet I can guarantee that in a few weeks/months/years most people on here will only be bothered with 'remember that time Osman gave the ball away against Newcastle and they scored....terrible player'.

Everyone wanted to see Fellaini pushed back to holding mid, everyone wanted to see Junior given a run, everyone wanted to see Coleman at RB. The proof was in the performance, Osman and Neville might not look good on a teasheet but the results and performance don't lie. They know how to play positionally in midfield at a premier league level. Fellaini and Junior were worse than championship level last night. Coleman getting torn a new one by Diouf is the reason that Hibbert is still first choice, but yet again becuse he's 30 English and an academy graduate everyone overlooks his basic defensive excellence in favour of a young fullbck who has barely played there at the top level. You say that they are our 'weak link' Ciaran but you've just witnessed proof that they're not. Without these so called weak links we've just put in our worst performance of many a year, yet they're still drawing criticism from you when some of our so called big stars such as Fellaini and Mirallas (although I'm inclined to leniency because he's new, not that that others have shown any to Naismith) were anonymous last night but never seem to have to take responsibility for anything.

While I agree with much that you say, I think criticism of Mirallas from anyone is a bit harsh, the service he recieved was very poor and he obviously missed having Fellaini up front with him. I don't think hoofball is for him. I don't want to join in the Moyes Bashing Brigade (unless we're talking about his penchant for crap and late substitutions) but the blame for last nights fiasco lands fairly at his feet.

Naismith is just so short of confidence, poor Scotland displays, lost any place he might have had pre-season to Mirallas. Magaye will forever be a fringe 2nd choice player for the odd game.

My last gripe is Heitinga - never ever rated him, as captain last night he was absolutely pathetic and his positional sense is dire - I bet that if Jags had played he would have blocked the shot for Leeds first goal whereas Heitinga was about 10 mins late in covering.

One last gripe to you fellow Toffewebbers - please stop this constant thread about using Junior, Barkley, Coleman, Duffy et al .... - they are not ready at all . We need the Neville's the Osman's - end of

But it’s only a worry if all you care about is winning trophies, for me it is irrelevant. Who says he should be prioritizing winning trophies? Ah yes, you mean your opinion is that he should? How about getting into Europe next year? I fancy that far better. How about staying in the EPL? That’d help.

There’s no conflict in the two statements I made as written even when you write them incorrectly and out of context as you have done

Whilst I totally understand the disappointment and the knee-jerk anger in the immediate aftermath of a defeat, I find the willingness to tear down the players and manager who only last week had been praised to the skies deeply depressing. I also feel that the reasoning of many of these posts is myopic at best and at worse heavily flawed.

Before the game there appeared to be broad approval of the selection and in truth the policy is completely in line with virtually every mid-to-top premier league teams approach to the Carling cup, i.e. a core of first team players (we had 5 who started last match + Distin and 9 who played from start of bench in last couple of games) plus a chance for subs/fringe players to have a start and stake a claim (Mucha, Oviedo, Naismith and Gueye) and the blooding of a youngster (Junior).

GivIng a few star performers (Baines, Jags and Pienaar ) a rest and avoiding injury/overplaying early in the season (don't forget Jags and Baines are putting in the miles for England as well as the Prem) but keep some ammunition on the bench in case they are needed (Jelavic, Pienaar, Neville, Jags, etc).

On paper this appears to me to be 100% in line with what a lot of posters have clamoured for (ditch Neville, give Junior a chance, etc) and personally I think it was exactly the right approach. The Carling Cup is exactly the right place to be trying out a few different players and even shuffling the formation a little (playing Felliani more centrally against more physical opposition doesn't seem crazy to me).
Ultimately the changes weren't exactly radical and the team frankly should have been good enough to oversee Championship opposition.

As it turned out, too many of players either simply didn't turn up, didn't get on the same wavelength or couldn't adjust to the gritty battling style that's increasingly not seen (even by us) in the Premier League. The performance of the opposition also comes into, Leeds are no mugs and were clearly up for it in what was for them a very big match.

Moyes didn't exactly throw the towel in, he brought on 2 more first teamers for the fringe/youth players who were having a bad game and then bolstered the team further with the return of our first choice striker with 25 mins to play meaning Jelavic, Mirallas, Anichebe, Pienaar and Felliani were all on to try and save the game.

In the end they didn't, Everton lost and we're out of a cup that we've still never won (or really ever looked like winning) leaving our thin squad to concentrate on the Premier League alone up till Xmas at least.
And that's the story - we tried something different, on the day it didn't work out and so we go back to the training ground and try to learn the lessons. The fringe players in particular will see where they need to step up and Moyes has had a chance to see where their weaknesses are in a proper competitive match.

Nobody died. Our season isn't in tatters. We're not really any weaker as a club. All that's been lost is the chance to compete for a second tier cup that buys entry into the Europa League.

Am I pleased that we went out? Of course not, I want Everton to win every match and I'd love us to win a trophy of any description. Equally though I'm not devastated, maybe if it was the semi final or we were actually within touching distance I would be more empassioned, but it wasn't and for me the focus remains squarely on the league.
I want us to finish top 4 and get in the Champions League and I still believe that's on. For me it's the next 3-4 league games that we need to really get passionate about and see if we can turn our early season form into a more meaningful position. If we capitulate at home to Southampton or drop a load of points in the weeks ahead then I think we can start with the questions, for now it's time to lick the wounds and bring on the weekend.

Aside from Baines, who I obviously agree is always going to be a big miss, there was a quartet of players whom I think it's fair to say the more vociferous posters on this site have regarded as either disposable or not fit for the first team.
Tonight that wish was granted, no Osman, Howard, Hibbert in sight and Neville benched. Can I say the result would've been different if they played, of course not, but I think it's fair to say that their absence didn't prove to be a roaring success.

Likewise the removal of Jagielka in favour of an often requested (on these pages) centre-back pairing of Heitinga and Distin and the much clamoured for ("why does Moyes never give the youth a chance?") arrival of Junior didn't exactly light fires from what I've seen.

Hmm, perhaps this football manager lark isn't as easy as it looks after all?

Anyway, that's my contribution on this. Understand the frustration of course, but let's keep this in perspective - every team has bad days and loses football matches, it's a marathon not a sprint.

I've noticed DM has a tendency to speak about Everton in the first person (I) when we are doing well. Example, from the BBC post-Swansea interview: "I feel a wee bit disappointed that I didn't maybe take full points on Monday night "against Newcastle]"

"I" didn't take full points? What? Is he playing by himself then?

He never ever ever does that after a bad performance. It's always "we", or sometimes "the players".

Being out of a mickey mouse cup earily rather than later on, helps us with our fixture list and picking up unwanted injuries. I'd rather do well in the league as it brings in more money and I do think we can qualiify through the league in to Europe without the added distration of this cup.

Moyes found out last night which players arn't ready and the capibilities of the fringe players, whether there ready to be regulars in the first team squad.

Junior isn't ready for the first team that's for sure
Oviedo could be a nice addition to the squad once he has more match fitness

Anichebe has had luck on his side of late but we know he just isn't good enough at this level, he'll be sent back to the bench after this game.
Naismith will never be a fisrt team player and most probably be a bench warmer.
Mucha will never see the first team again and should go and hopefully will go soon.
Coleman will most probably need to move to get any regular first team football as he's average going forward and below average running back.
All the others will be okay.

I realise that you wern't singling out Mirallas for criticism, James, and your comments re Neville are spot on. He is a better defensive mid than Fellaini. But, to be fair, that's not saying a great deal, he does have some shortcomings in that position but his effort and organisation are second to none at our club. I do, however, think that levelling criticism at Moyes in this instance is justified. Ringing 6 changes and introducing new blood into that team will not have done their confidence any good at all and we have lost a chance to win a winnable trophy.

Chris James@171.

Chris, "The Carling Cup is exactly the right place to be trying out a few different players " is OK in theory but last nights result shoots that theory right out of the water. Just because a lot of posters on here have clamoured for Neville,Osman, Hibbert etc. to be dropped doesn't necessarily mean it's right. Moyes has done little wrong this season but last night was a cock up. Leaving too many players out and bringing in too many changes is not the actions of a man who wants to win a game. And saying that he thought that team would be good enough to win shows two things. Lack of respect for the opposition and a lack of knowledge of his own squad. I'm not a Moyes Out follower but he got it wrong in the same way that he got last seasons Derby match wrong.

What I said was clear, it was "getting into Europe". Purely because I like going to the European games and I'd like to see Everton play well against good European sides. Don't get me wrong, it's great if we can win a trophy too but not the driver. Seeing them play well on a game by game basis is.

Everyone was calling for a change in team selection right through the start of the season. Either playing Coleman right back, give Junior a chance, play Heitinga, play Fellaini further back... all these calls were made by a lot of people here.

Yet when they happen, its still Moyes' fault???!!!!!

The same people say its Moyes' fault. Cmon!!! The team selection was fine, that team should have beaten Leeds comfortably. The players are at absolute fault. Oviedo to me was the only one who had a decent game. Naismith was particularly awful. Junior looked out of his depth. Fellaini looked like he couldnt be asked.

Leeds, although playing an ugly game, dominated the midfield and had the better chances. Ironically enough, Neville gave us a bit of grip there in the second half, but we stil werent good enough.

Players' fault, not the team selection!!

It's rubbish because you're making a lot of assumptions about what our fans wanted, and then using that to justify the inclusion of Osman and Neville.

It's slight of hand (million and 3... and counting)

ps: I have no problem with the inclusion of Howard and Hibbert in our first eleven.

But Moyes must accept his share of the responsibility to. Ultimately, the buck stops at him. You're right, some people on here did want to see the kind of changes that DM actually made, but (if I can speak for them for a minute), I think they were imagining a well-balanced team incorporating those players, a coherent XI - which last night's team wasn't.

Personally, I was never in favour of those kind of changes so I'm immune to charges of hypocrisy. I wanted Distin and Naismith in, Gueye and Oviedo getting a half each. That's it. As it happened Naismith and Gueye were atrocious, but that might well have been absorbed by the steady good play of those around them, and Oviedo would have been likewise supported.

----------------------

Again...slight of hand..or just pure fiction.

Osman has been incredibly poor this season, and Neville has been up and down. To imply that they have been criticised irrespective of their performances is codswallop.

They are judged on merit.

To be honest James... I think it may be you that has a problem with your objectivity. To suggest that Neville didn't do anything wrong when he cam on last night is myopic. He was guilty of misplaced passes and some truly awful tackles. At one point he mis-controlled a ball that put us in trouble at the back and he then felled the player he gave it to..

If that's your idea of 'doing nothing wrong', then I understand why you don't get the valid criticisms of players.

Another example is your assertion that there is never any criticism of Fellaini... Try reading the posts above yours – or any of the stick he had over the past 4 years for average performances – start with the thread on teh West Brom game.

Last night was bad. Moyes has to take some blame for maybe making too many changes although the players must also take blame and to be honest that team if playing at their best should have been more than good enough to win. Not quite sure why some on here are so determined to give all the blame to Moyes and none to the players.

Our defense in particular worries me as Leeds could have scored more and we were very fortunate to get a clean sheet at Swansea. Alot of people have called for heitinga to be back in the team but he looks very ropey to me.

Lets hope we see a response against Southampton or else this season could very quickly turn back to mediocrity.

Magaye I'm afraid is another Bily and Heitinga was lucky to stay on after his crude tackle and stamp. If Johnny had a regular starting place we would be way down the fair play league as his tackling is poor, he lacks pace and gives away stupid free kicks. Jags and Distin hardly ever get booked and Baines is the same. If anyone cries about Johnny being out of the first team, then he should count his bookings.

Mucha was at fault when he failed to come for a cross and was saved by Naismith's goal-line clearance. On this showing Mucha and Naismith were exposed as not good enough. Coleman played OK and Distin struggled without Jags as his partner.

I don't think that Mucha, Naismith or Magaye will cut it in the Premier League. The jury is out on Junior (for the future) and Oviedo who looks a decent addition to the squad.

None of our youngsters are coming through and Liverpool have better ones already pushing for places. Sterling looks a real find and has bags of confidence at 16 years of age. Rodwell is the only one who has made the first team since Rooney and only money is going to strengthen our small squad.

If we are still doing well by January then a cash injection from the board is urgently required to give DM a chance to buy some decent players. DM said he must use the squad and I agree with him. All the players on the pitch at Elland Road are on pay and must be able to earn that pay or be shipped out.

Heitinga needs to be sold if anyone wants him as I see him as a liability rather than a player who deserves a place in the first eleven. Jagielka is much better than him as a centre back and if Heitinga cannot play anywhere else then what's the use in keeping him? I think Duffy is a better alternative at centre back as he has heading ability and is already a better tackler.

I know what I am writing is controversial but I am an Everton fan since 1948 and think I know a player when I see them. I played with Temple as a schoolboy and spent time at Southport and Buxton until I had a double fracture so I'm not just an armchair fan who wears blue tinted specs.

Anichebe should have had a penalty but if that had been given we would have escaped without merit. This team is playing the best football I have seen from an Everton side since the 60s BUT we have no replacements which are up to the level we require if we are to maintain our standard.

I do not blame Moyes for using his squad, other teams did exactly the same.

It's been well commented on here that there were 6 changes from the Swansea game. But let's not forget that there were 3 players missing at Swansea: Hibbert, Gibson and Jelavic. So, if you add those 3 to the 6 rested from Saturday, then there were actually 9 senior players who did not start last night.

The other thing apart sending out a team to win last night's match, there is also the small point of blooding these inexperienced players into a settled side were they will flourish rather than throw them into the deep end in a completely unbalanced side with no obvious pattern of play. Which seemed to me to be the case last night.

Let's not go overboard. Our league season has started well. We just could have done without last night from both the players and the manager.

To me, when you look at the teamsheet, it looks balanced. Everyone were comfortable in their positions. The only issue I had was playing Junior and Fellaini in centre mid, I thought it might have been a little lightweight, and centre mid was the major downfall for me. It is harsh to criticise Junior, because it was his first game, but Fellaini didnt help him at all, thats one of the worst games I have ever seen him play.

I think we didnt look coherent, because Leeds didnt let us be. It showed a lack of desire from us, because when Leeds wins all the 50-50s, they did look like they wanted it more. What can Moyes do about that? Why is he being blamed for that?

Basically, we needed a Kev Johnson in the centre of the park, We would have won then

I think IMHO this will bite us in the arse as the season plays out, that's the difference between us and the rich sky 4 or whatever you want to call them: their ability to bring class off the bench when they need it.

Calm down Madam and please read what I've said previously on opinion, valid opinion and opinion stated as fact. Of course you're entitled to your opinion - as long as you can back it up.

Anyway you've badly misunderstood, I never throw my toys out of the pram or get really worked up.

For work this year I've travelled to 6 countries, only 2 continents though so I'm a bit weak in that respect.

Yes, I think I am a fool.

I'd sacrifice winning the FA Cup for 4th place in the league, maybe even 5th or 6th and a place in Eurrope. To be fair we probably aren't good enough for the CL and would take a mauling but a good run in the Europa Cup would be brilliant for Everton and great for us fans

It isn't "turning on Moyes" to say he got it wrong last night. Just as its right to look at the Swansea game and say well done that was top stuff to Moyes and the players. The longer term view hasn't changed for me. We are much better than last season, we have a very strong first 13 or so and if we are lucky and can keep them fit and not suspended etc then it's going to be a brilliant and exciting ride in the league this year and who knows what we can achieve. I really believe that to be true. But it's just nonsense to sit back and accept a performance like last nights as if its "just one of those things". The 5000 travelling support must be treated with more respect, they must be because they will accept an off par showing, but what was seen at Leeds was not acceptable. If you think it's ok cos its just the league cup, just a chance to give some game time, then your entitled to your view. But Man City can throw away this competition whilst competing in the Champions League and again as they try to buy the Prem title. Everton cannot afford to be so slap dash.

The wider point is that the squad isn't anywhere near as strong as I and many others thought. It looked sound but there isn't the quality or guile and the kids lack experience, obviously, and yes I get the irony in that statement ! But the approach needs to be different given what we saw at Elland Rd. Junior should not be dismayed at that 45 minutes he should instead be on the bench on Saturday and used for 20 mins if things are going well. We have to blood them more carefully and we fans have to be more patient, which is hard !

But we have to move on and the real thing is that I like many here will be screaming support for all in our shirt on Saturday at Goodison. Will that be hypocritical ? Not in my view, it's just being Everton and bloody frustrating it is !

Yes, fair comment but you have to look at the historically based probability of us winning it. We've never won it in say 30 years so I'd guess that given that it gets harder all of the time to win it that in any year we are 50:1 against. Is that better or worse than the probability that we can get into the top 6? I'd say that the latter is the best bet?

That is all very fair comment

6 changes to the starting line-up, done to death here already, but too many for this match, I think Moyes underestimated Leeds. He certainly didn't throw it as some have suggested. Mucha, well I didn't actually realise it was Mucha until I got home, I just thought Howard had an awful night! Gueye was woeful, Junior looked ok, I wasn't convinved by Oviedo at all but it's early days. Fellaini and Heitinga terrible (barring Fellaini being pushed up-front for 20 minutes). Distin, too much fannying around on the ball, he scared me shitless too many times. Coleman, I thought did alright. Mirallas - like a skilful Marcus Bent. Naismith, say no more. Vic, I thought he did well (and he definitely should have had a pen towards the end), I don't really understand the stick he gets, there's definitely a Premiership striker in there.

Change of tactics - Fellaini sitting deep didn't work, in the second half he was pushed up and this was working (barring a horrible 2nd goal from Leeds), as soon as Jelavic comes on he gets dropped deep again, and we lacked any real threat again.

Changes - positive changes from Moyes, I actually understand now what Neville brings to the team. As soon as he came on, he showed his experience, organised the team a little more; he showed for throws, not a single player did that in the first half. And skills-wise he was typically shit, but I'd rather have him there! Pienaar, needs Baines overlapping with him, and needs to stop going to ground so easily and losing the ball, I blame him for the second Leeds goal. Jelavic, didn't really do much.

Away fans - first half we were awful (although as I was on my own in a sea of tattoo-faced Leeds fans I plead mitigating circumstances!), much more vocal in the second half and tried to spur the team on.

In short, the starting line-up and tactics back-fired and we didn't show Leeds enough respect. None of our big names stood up to be counted (Fellaini, Heitinga I'm looking at you). But we were well beaten by a well-organised, hard-working Leeds team who raised their game and played the best they have all season, if we'd have won this or taken it to extra time they could have rightly felt some injustice. Disappointed, but not the end of the world.

Yes, Martin, the the chances of a top 6 finish may appear to be marginally better, but given the paucity of our squad, as we saw last night, it will only take a few injuries to scupper the chances of a top 6 slot.
The League/Milk/Rumbelows/Michael Mouse/Whatever Cup is just who is better on the night. A one off performance. If we had played our best eleven and could attain a lead THEN take off Pienaar, Jelavic etc., they would get the rest they appear to need and squad players could have their chance then. My concern now is that we could maybe lose the momentum we have got over the excellent start to the season. And the lads who came in may have a cinfidence problem.

Having said that, on paper, this didn't look an atrocious selection, given that we already knew Leeds would be without a number of key players...

...so, a back 4 containing Heitinga (player of year), Distin, Coleman (not the best RB but should be able to handle Champs level stuff) and Oviedo (we'd all been pleased as piss to sign and looking forward to as good back-up on the left)...

...in the middle, Fella (how good has he become!), Gueye (not that good but again should have been able to handle Champs level), Naismith (ditto, and better than Gueye), and Junior (looked really good in the pres-seasons and many were pleading for him to be tried); so not the strongest midfield but Fella to show Junior the way...

... and Mirallas (what an exciting start to his EFC career) and Vic (been looking a bit better recently...

...as I say, on paper, not an obviously weak team, so I'm not sure that's terrible team selection.

And then on the pitch, well who'd have thought that the stars would perform so badly, leaving the newcomers with no support or anything to give them confidence.

I might have started with a stronger team but that was not, to me, an obviously poor side. It does suggest also that Hibbs, Osman and Pip aren't so bad that they can be replaced by the second stringers. Pip might not have had the best of halves when he came on but he fighting against the tide of the first half performance and Leeds confidence gained from that.

So, I while I wouldn't give DM 10/10 for selection, I don't think he deserves the bile for that selection. I feel for the travelling fans, but lay the blame mainly at those on the pitch. DM must be so angry at them.

He, nor I, gave a shit about that Mickey Mouse Cup. Gibson's back soon therefore all will be rosey and our football, plus our leaky backline will be sorted.

On a side note, I'm truly sorry to the poor 5,000 who turned up expecting to see something different. I knew it before the game, I knew it when the line-up was given, and I knew when they scored inside 30 seconds or whatever it was.

I'm very sorry we lost last night, just trying to put some positive spin on it that's all. What worries me most is that it showed that we probably have a very weak squad and we would be in trouble if we hit a bad injury patch. Hopefully though we'll never have 6 new faces at the same time again. I desperately hope that we can now have a good run up to the new year and go into the league run in and FA cup in form and free of injuries.

In the recent weeks, and even last season, not one poster would have called for
- Junior to play holding mid
- Coleman to play RB
- Mucha to play in goal
- Oviedo to play LB
- Naismith to start with Anichebe
all at once.

Fair enough, some of the things people have been begging for were done, but to lump it all in together and say it backfired is very lazy and agenda-serving.

6 changes to the starting line-up, done to death here already, but too many for this match, I think Moyes underestimated Leeds. He certainly didn't throw it as some have suggested. Mucha, well I didn't actually realise it was Mucha until I got home, I just thought Howard had an awful night! Gueye was woeful, Junior looked ok, I wasn't convinved by Oviedo at all but it's early days. Fellaini and Heitinga terrible (barring Fellaini being pushed up-front for 20 minutes). Distin, too much fannying around on the ball, he scared me shitless too many times. Coleman, I thought did alright. Mirallas - like a skilful Marcus Bent. Naismith, say no more. Vic, I thought he did well (and he definitely should have had a pen towards the end), I don't really understand the stick he gets, there's definitely a Premiership striker in there.

Change of tactics - Fellaini sitting deep didn't work, in the second half he was pushed up and this was working (barring a horrible 2nd goal from Leeds), as soon as Jelavic comes on he gets dropped deep again, and we lacked any real threat again.

Changes - positive changes from Moyes, I actually understand now what Neville brings to the team. As soon as he came on, he showed his experience, organised the team a little more; he showed for throws, not a single player did that in the first half. And skills-wise he was typically shit, but I'd rather have him there! Pienaar, needs Baines overlapping with him, and needs to stop going to ground so easily and losing the ball, I blame him for the second Leeds goal. Jelavic, didn't really do much.

Away fans - first half we were awful (although as I was on my own in a sea of tattoo-faced Leeds fans I plead mitigating circumstances!), much more vocal in the second half and tried to spur the team on.

In short, the starting line-up and tactics back-fired and we didn't show Leeds enough respect. None of our big names stood up to be counted (Fellaini, Heitinga I'm looking at you). But we were well beaten by a well-organised, hard-working Leeds team who raised their game and played the best they have all season, if we'd have won this or taken it to extra time they could have rightly felt some injustice. Disappointed, but not the end of the world.

I'd prefer to do well in the league, for ever place closer to the top is extra money for the club. If it was the FA cup i'd be more disappointed but this cup doesn't mean that much money wise to help the club.

After last night Moyes now knows which players he can depend on for the rest of the season. Plus there will be extra rest days all the way up to Christmas (injured less) and if the team performs like they do after Christmas then we'll be in a good position at the end.

I've lived in several parts of the world and never noticed any more or less optimism in one place or another. In fact, the most relentlessly negative people I've met are all Americans.

Funny you mention THAT game. My first "Stomach punch" defeat as an Evertonian. I was never so sure of victory. Took me 4 days of avoiding any and all mention of Everton (especially coming into TW). Last time that happened was with my Yankees in 2004.

But before that game what I was looking forward to most after we whipped them wasn't just that we were going to a Cup Final. It was anticipating coming in here and reading all the expressions of joy specifically because it was the RS we defeated.

I don't pretend to have the depth of emotion connected to any derby match that those who grew up in it do. So I live that thru reading others in here.

As far as blaming me? Have at it. All part of the fun.

Is it a conjunction or would it qualify as a word on its own in good standing?

TY Peter Barry for using it. I'm going to attempt to use it twice today just for shits and giggles.

It seems to be an opinion shared by the majority on this site.

Like I say, you need to read my definitions on opinion, valid opinion and opinion as fact.

I say I am a fool because at the moment I'm doing something that many would class as foolish but it's only my opinion.

Both are supposed to be experienced pro's and if Heitinga played against us we would have been howling for his sending off after the atrocious late tackle and stamp he made.

A really good player does not play like he does... Jags and Distin when played together are a great pairing and hardly ever get booked or give fouls away in dangerous areas. Baines is the same and those three plus Hibbo make up our best back four at present. We should have kept Ruddy and not Mucha who would have conceded three only for Naismith's goal line clearance.

ALL the players on the field at Leeds are professionals on good pay and make up our squad. They should perform and force themselves into contention for regular selection. The only newcomer who had a reasonable game was Oviedo, but I don't just blame the newcomers. Players like Gueye, Heitinga, Mucha, Fellaini and Distin all had poor games.

We desperately missed Baines, Howard, Osman and Jagielka but we have a very small squad and sometimes they need to be kept for league games.

All the other top sides playing last night had squad players on show that are not normally selected for league games. Leeds Utd in fact had a lot of regulars missing, yet the beat us.

It just emphases the weakness of our squad in depth. Our best eleven picks itself and the only players I see of value to supplement them are about two or three. If Gibson was fit he would probably replace Neville and that would be about it.

Calls for Heitinga to play are ridiculous. He should wait until Distin retires although I hope to see Duffy given a chance first.

First of all must say what a marvellous turn out of 5000 fans making the journey, it puts most other clubs to shame and no vile chanting just encouragement from the travelling fans. Well done lads you all deserve a medal.

As we all want the same for Everton I don't think it's nice to get into slagging matches with fellow Evertonians on any forum. The thing that separates us from the rest is that we know how to behave.

A lot of hypocricy on here from fans who wanted changes (before the match). The game just showed our lack of depth and I just hope we are lucky with injuries. We need at least two more decent squad members to provide 'proper' cover.

Every premier side made changes for the cup game, but our changes never made the grade. Back to the regular defence I hope and a bit of entertaining football up front!

Never really listened to Danny Kelly before but I'm tuning in at 7pm quite a lot as he talks with a good degree of intelligence about the game where as Durham pokes people with a stick.

As for TS, Durham must be one o the biggest cocks on radio after Alan Green but it is just a formula they're working. As for Danny Kelly, a Spurs fan of course but I like listening to him, he seems a decent bloke with a head on his shoulders. Plus I don't want to stove the radio in when he's on which has got to be a positive!

Firstly, heart goes out to all those that travelled and were let down by a poor performance, effort and referee.

Secondly, don't agree with all those jumping on Moyesie's back. Okay, too many changes. He realised his mistake and tried to make changes but I agree the 1st half performance had already set the tone and Leeds took the upper hand. All that said, surely this was the right time to make changes, give the 'squad' players a chance... god knows, with our thin squad we are going to have to rely at least 2 or 3 of them at various times during the season.

And more to the point, everyone is forgetting that Leeds had 6 so called regulars out for this game so it should follow that Everton's 6 changes should be better than Leeds's changes. If that isn't FACT, then Warnock has somehow stumbled upon better squad players than us! Complete and utter bollocks! Everton should have beaten Leeds, end of! Commitment and application let us down......Down to the lucky 11 blessed with wearing the royal blue. No-one else.

Finally, We are 3rd and should be joint 2nd but for a blind linesman. Get on with it, stop bitching. We are privileged to support a club that gets so deep beneath our skin.....there's no other club like us. I haven't felt this positive about my beloved team since the mid 80s when I went not wondering if we would win, but by how many!!! COYB

Made me laugh when that tit Goughy said something like,

'Everton should rest players when playing the 'bigger' teams in the pl so they can concentrate on the cup! Cuz tha nivva gunna win them gims!'

Fucking Idiot!

BTW was that heitinger's twin brother that played last night

Name the ONLY Prem team that lost to a LOWER Division team in the Third Round.

Yep you got it Tactics Devoid Davey's EVERTON.

Swansea City beat Crawley Town 3-2 away on Tuesday night to progress in the League Cup, where they have drawn Liverpool at Anfield in the next round

Coincidentally, Everton and Swansea played each other in their last competitive fixture before the Cup games. Who would you say was the better team, best tactics, best performance etc between David Moyes Everton and Michael Laudrups Swansea, who also had home advantage....?

Or does that not suit the bluff and bluster of your argument?

There is a major difference between myself and Peter although there are likely to be great similarities too. I have a fishing rod that I've cast into the river of website naivity, Peter has taken the bait hook line and sinker and I'm having some sport before I let him go. The other difference of course is that I have a sense of humour and Peter seems to have had a by-pass. Ner, ner is all I've got to say.:-)

I might have guessed, you’re a bloody telephone engineer. I’m a Process Engineer myself so a division or 2 up mate; I design the installations that you put your phones on. Send me your CV and I’ll give you a call if we have any problems with the phones. :-)

Its Pathetic!!

Surely this kind of personal bickering should be filtered??

I want to talk about football with fellow Evertonians not read this fucking bollocks!!

It wasn't a deliberate wind up, I just tried to use what I saw as humour in my responses to somebody who was definitely wound up. I refer to it as fishing purely metaphorically. It was a resulting situation not something set out deliberately. I always try to maintain humour but some find it difficult to recognise it. Not their fault, it happens on internet forums.

I never go out of my way to wind anybody up and I see everybody one here as virtual friends and peers but if somebody starts blustering at me I think it's right to have a little fun from it rather than get into a slanging match? I'd been accused of some things that weren't true so I was honest.

We have very serious issues at EFC to address.

There isn't any squabbling. It's you guys now who are making the show go on

Peter@444

I agree completely. You know, I was voted Motorcycle News Forum Twat of the year in 2004?

Play nicely :)

If you are not embarrassed Peter and Martin, you really need some help and possible a short "section" under the Mental Health Act.

What does supercilious mean?

So fucking what... I'm a priest... Beat that!

' It wasn't a deliberate wind up '...but still a wind up.

Martin #450...' it's you guys now who are making the show go on '....On this he is right, allow him to ( by default ) * laughingly* ' retire undefeated '... is this for the 4th or 5th time.

Think of me as your appropriate adult...coz you need one.

Anyway, I'm retiring undefeated again.

Pythonesque or what?

Time for Colonel Kenrick, I think..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gglhv-aGCag

Could you kindly let me know your address so I can bill you by return?

Another mystery solved!

... If the signal is going over water and hot area, a fade margin of 20 dB may not be enough depending on the region. The signal in such situation may not even reach its destination due to a phenomenon called “ducting” as the propagating signal will bend like a pipe and miss its destination. Mideast Gulf areas especially, also places like Miami!!!!!

' I'm a Priest. Beat that.'

I bet that's what you say to all the choirboys....

BUT, I got as far as Martin Mason's #135, which includes the immortal phrase "we are a small club now", and got so pissed off that I couldn't contain myself.

"Small club" is a relative term.

You arrogant, short-sighted know-nothing pillock!

How long do you claim to have been an Evertonian and where do you come from? Are you an internet warrior? Have you ever had the good fortune to visit the Grand Old Lady? Could you find your way there without your white stick and the guide dog.

Everton have spent only four years of its existence in anything other than the top tier of English Football.
We accumulated more points in the old First Division than ANY OTHER CLUB.

Having said that, I realise that you probably don't even know that there was life before the Premier League, so lets just say that we have been members of the PL for the whole of its existence.

I don't know without checking how many clubs can say that (but I'll bet there a lot of TWebbers who could tell me); but let's imagine that it would be about ten.

There are probably about 5000 properly organised football clubs in this country, which means that we are in the top 10 of a group of 5000. Does that suggest "small"?

You confuse yourself because you compare us with the top three or four clubs; and because you cannot bring yourself to include us in their number you make the sweeping statement that we are "small".

You are a FUCKING IDIOT.

About time someone said that.

Well said.

The sheer glee this bloke gets from the attention seeking insults he spouts about this institution makes me wonder what sort of fan he really is.

Probably try to justify his ramblings with the assertion that your opinion can't be backed up by undeniable fact.

Try to undermine you by stating he's an engineer, (and you may not be).

Either way, you're spot on.

Just saying like.....

Stupid thing to say.

Everton Football Club is not small. The board is.

Anyway, as I've explained many times EFC is a small club and that is on the only basis that it can possibly be judged against and that is revenue and spending power. That we were once a big club in this measure doesn't mean that we are a big club forever except in the mind of some fans. Things change and EFC has slipped badly in the ranks of powerful clubs. Our ground now is a small club's ground, we haven't won a trophy of any kind for 17 years and a real trophy for 25 years. We've sold every shiftable asset we have to stay as a second tier EPL club whi very infrequently make unsuccessful forays into Europe. We are a "small" EPL club compared with the large clubs who can outspend us and spending power is all that matters. Knowing yer 'istory and having been a big clug 30 years ago doesn't get you any points. I'm being fairly simplistic in that EFC is probably a "medium" club as compared to the "big" beasts but for me there is "small" and "big" and we are small as in there is a winner and everybody else is a loser

A challenge. Somebody give me one measure that we can judge ourselves "big" by and no it isn't on past trophies that we won 100 years ago. We are what we are not because we are a big club but because we are operating an unsustainable financial model spending what we don't have and we have possibly the best manager in the EPL.

And listen to me, I'm a top tier true Blue with 50 years of watching behind me, an engineer from the leafy southern suburbs (actually I was born in Liverpool but I escaped quickly to beautiful mid-cheshire before making the grade and moving down south).

Just for clarification I class Man city, United, Chelsea and Arsenal as "Big" with Spurs nudging in and Liverpool sliding out. By any measure we have deserved to be relegated and we get stubbed out by many good players who will not consider joining us. The reason? Because we are a small club. I'm not sensitive about it like some of you though, I love it.

Still comes from the same oil as petrol.

Martin, I look forward to seeing you on the front of Angling Times, holding up your Peter Barry.

MARTIN MASON, YOU'RE STILL A FUCKING IDIOT.

Jamie, thank you mate and I agree, a very good thread.

Now he just retires "undefeated."

As an engineer History may mean jack to you but I can guarantee you it means a lot more to most people than the density of fucking oil. Trust me.

The FA Cup is the oldest club football tournament in the world, UK viewing figures for the Final last year peaked at over £11m last year, more than 1 in 6 of the population with half a billion watching worldwide. Ask any football fan in the world if they know what the FA Cup is and they'll tell you they do.

Not a "real" trophy? You need to get over yourself mate. Either that or retire.

I'm off to Toulouse, have a nice weekend everyone - yes Martin, look! International travel! How exciting! :D

What I mean about the FA Cup is it was once a trophy almost on a par with a league championship with it's own European championship for winners and still was until around the time Everton won the Cup Winners Cup. It's steadily decreased in importance, had its prime time TV slot moved last year and It no longer has it's own European competition.

If you ask any fan whether they want the EPL or FA Cup would anybody say the FA Cup?

City and Chelsea are big clubs based on the definition I used to class Everton as a small club.

Celtic are a small Scottish Club.

Answer my challenge please. No need to rush off to Toulouse to avoid it.

I'll be in Kazakhstan but have a nice trip anyway

I think in this thread its more Mason motivated than ire and anger at the League Cup loss which surely can't compare to last seasons FA Cup shambles.

I like your style BTW – typing away furiously while your colleagues are admiring your hard work in the background !!

Can we all list our professions under each post – we could really get stuck into each other then.

" What d'you know anyway, you're only a fucking ..............."

Personally, after attending Eaton & Cambridge, I find this all a bit childish.

And so on...

As the 300th poster on this thread, can I have a prize? Vouchers, please - I prefer to choose something myself.

Kevin Tully, now why do I think that reference to your old school might be suspect?! Nice one. Do you know where to send his WUM award? He's in so many countries!

At the time I posted along the lines that robust debate, amusing exchanges, banter etc. were to be welcomed. Personally, it is one reason I touch base regularly with the site and why I often sign on to the live feed. I want to exchange views, share get perspectives, and even be put right about ‘facts.’

However:

(1) Unless it is relevant to the immediate discussion, I am not terribly interested whether the writer: has reached age which requires them to be regularly measured for a coffin; has a doctorate; or claims to be a business whiz kid.

(2) We really don’t need to demean fellow Evertonians, who may not be as clever or as educated as we might think we are. To do so is to fall to the level of an arrogant barbarian. It is only one step away from the sort of alleged “pleb” accusations recently made in the vicinity of Downing Street.

I would hate to think that some people would be put off from posting on here because they fear dogs’ abuse.

Seriously? don't take it too seriously it's very light hearted really and a good antidote to what we saw last week

"Can we all list our professions under each post "

Well, Kevin, I'm a retired lounge lizard with the general appearance of Sir Les Patterson, glass of red in one hand and either a golf club or my dick in the other. So, you attended Eaton Rd Primary school, did you.....?

Martin, I'm off to Spain (with my golf club and my dick) in a few hours, so I'll miss tomorrows match. If you're back from bandit country will you give them a cheer for me?

The clergy is not what I thought it was......

I must be in the minority of wanting a silver pot rather than cash.

Hmmm... How about Martin the Engineer!?

You patently struggle to comprehend the English language so let me explain again. Big is based on current financial performance not how clubs have done historically unless I've missed something. Do Liverpool get extra points for their past wins? No of course they don't. When was the last time they won the league championship? They are a major disaster area financially.

Your inability to argue any sensible case (or to comprehend English), to coin a phrase, leads me to believe that you are a WUM or mentally unstable.

And what if I am Lee Mason's brother? Would it help you understand what I write any better?

Now get lost before I have to get my rod out to you

I said financial performance not financial muscle and in this respect notional value isn't financial performance. Liverpool are sinking and will be as small as EFC soon if they carry on.

What you have to realise is that Martin Mason has his own dictionary; and is such an arrogant get that he will simply not consider that any of us lesser (Northern) mortals might be entitled to hold views which are contrary to his.

He believes that anything that is not big is small, just at anything that is not black is white!

Hope to God he doesn't get a calculator and a ballpoint pen this Christmas, or he'll be Chancellor of the bleedin' Exchequer.