Moyes not happy with officials

I defended the linesman for Fellaini's offside goal against Newcastle as it was a very very difficult decision to call. And I'm also still not convinced that ALL of the ball was over the line for Anichibe's goal in the same game.

But in the case of Kone's goal yesterday, he was in an offside position well before the ball was played. It wasn't a case of the defender moving out and he moving in at the same time making it difficult to judge. It was a plain and simple bad decision.

But the conspiracy stuff is starting to get tired now.

I'm just glad that w did manage to get a point, how pissed off would most of us be on here if we lost? But I suppose a draw when we are losing for 55 mins isn't good enough eh? It was for me.

Second half he missed (I assume by virtue of his not flagging) many fouls, throw ins etc because I think he was waiting for the ref to make the decisions for him, and his flag waving was merely to re-affirm his boss' decision. Some refs insist on that...

Going back to the Newcastle game, some loon is now claiming cos players are wearing white boots, it makes it harder to judge on offsides! Fellaini was not offside. I can accept officials make mistakes, but he wasn't offside.

There is now shadow technology being used for the goal-line decisions. That Anichebe goal was over the line. Some tosspot pundit (think it was Townsend) was suggesting the asst ref would've got a better view if he was stood behind the touch line, "as the goal post is in the way". Words fail...

Martin, if you want to challenge me on this - don't. Do your own research instead of asking everyone else to. Except, this does kind of reinforce your small club argument, so no need to.

Me? I'm a yes, no, no, no... but I'm not 100% sure!

I'll give Mirallas the benefit of the doubt but I'm sick of Jelavic throwing himself to the floor. If he got on with the fucking game, he might get more decisions.

Yesterday, and I only realised this after watching MotD, the two Mirallas chances in the second half – Jelavic was screaming for the ball when better placed both times.

I don't think they will ever gel in the same way that, for example/argument, Sharp and Heath did.

Edward # 549, glad you agree.

Nick # 555, what I say doesn't matter but this is a discussion forum so if you don't mind. I disagree that all of the ball was over the line for Anichibe's effort. On any replay I've seen I can't see a gap between the line and the ball but I stand to be corrected. Fellaini was played on by the defender's leg. I hear that it's any part of the body that counts so Fellaini is onside. People have said that it's the head. But you seem 100% certain that both were goals. Does it matter what you think? And then the rest of your post turns into conspiracy and name calling.

Matt, #558 I said I thought that the Kone decision was a poor one so we're in agreement. Where (in my original post) did I disagree with anything you subsequently said? Just wondering about the "thank fuck you're not a referee" comment.

And now there are comments about giving officials shit in the media etc. If any other club, especially Liverpool, were do any such thing they'd be slated on here to put it mildly. But it seems that us (rightfully IMO) disagreeing with such behaviour isn't working so now some think we should follow suit and be a whinging shower of old women. Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the game as a whole. Everybody moans about everybody else. Managers moan about refs, players dive and playact, fans moan about everyone. Sorry, rant over.

A corollary to your question is, if a player does dive, and we've seen some who've dived when in goalscoring positions - why does he do it? Is it a lack of belief in themselves, or just cos that's what they were trained to do? Your "logic" argument doesn't have, well, any logic.

Yesterday's decisions were equally laughable. Kone's goal was clearly offside, a point quite rightly undisputed by anyone so far. We had four penalty shouts in that match and one was awarded (for either of the two fouls between Anichebe being wrestled to the ground by Coldwell and Mirallas being clipped)

The first penalty I will accept could go either way. Jelavic's foot was clearly struck but the ball was also connected so I would say let that one go. When he was shoved in the back in mid air Jelavic had every right to hit the deck and that is a penalty in any match you will see fairly officiated. I thought Coldwell was bang out of order for the entire match yesterday - especially in his leading the charge for Fellaini being sent off. For me, he could easily take the title as the new snide, dirty wrestler of the Premiership as Carragher retires!

The upshot IMHO is that we should have two points more from the Newcastle game and two points more from the Wigan one by virtue of the refused penalty(ies) and offside goal against.

Right now I believe we should be one point behind Chelsea with our only dropped points quite deservedly from the WBA away game. Instead I am now looking at how many teams around us are on the same points and we dropped two places. I am not saying I expect that to be our finishing place (would be nice though) but we are only seven games in and my euphoria is starting to wain all because of officials, not players. That is plain wrong.

The second one was a dive.

Yes. Wigan were dirty.. especially whenever Fellaini elbowed and kicked people... Oh wait...

Just seen the shite match on MoTD, Suarez fell at the feet of Huth in the first half and he did the right thing and attempted an extermination as you would if the opportunity of squashing a cockroach presented itself, as it transpired the Uruguayan proved to be equally robust as his six legged cousin and lived to dive around the field for the rest of the match to the amusement of all.. As usual St Steven escaped the post match analysis for similar hystrionics.

I can forgive the linesman for the Fellaini 'goal' v Newcastle, in real time I think most of us would've thought he was offside. However how the linesman missed Kone's today I haven't a fucking clue, it wasn't even a quick move. The fat fucker just hadn't caught up with play, very very poor.

If the authorities can go back and (rightly) punish Naismith for his elbow why the fuck can they not retrospectively punish that buck toothed cocksucker for diving?

He isn't. He's a very talented out and out striker (who actually helps out much better than that) and he gets fouled,- a lot. And he gets no 'protection' from refs. You'll have to ask them why.

On a matter of the laws as applied yesterday. What was our penalty given for? Mr Friend was never asked, and no doubt would have refused to answer anyway. It had to be for Vic being wrestled, Carragher style, to the deck.. Because if it wasn't, and it was Figuera's trip on Mirallas, he should have been sent off. Kevin had only the keeper to beat. I do believe that the FA call that a clear goal-scoring opportunity.

Last point on officials, repeating myself, but I want people to think about this. If and when 'goal-line technology' is introduced, who will make the decision as to whether a goal has been scored or not? And how?

Bear with me. The decision of a ref in any match is sacrosanct. If he says a goal has been scored and restarts the game, it can't be rescinded. if that affects the result, it can't be changed. If a goal has been scored, as at Newcastle, but not awarded, and the game carries on, what happens next? A voice in his ear - from? A named official? Someone who can overrule, as it were, an officiating referee? A machine perhaps? The FA will never accept this. There's still avery long way to go on this one.

ps - Nekybroons are going to say something about these things evening themselves out because the ManU 'keeper' scooped one off the line today, and it was a marginal decision. But they're still two points up and we're two points down on that transaction as they would have only lost 3-1, whereas we would have won 3-2. Evens itself out? Absolute bollocks.

I know some feel that the second, the push from behind, clearly a more obvious penalty to me, was a 'dive' because he hit the deck, some would say too easily. Go and ask Caldwell for a kick-around on the park and find out for yourself.

But imagine Mr Friend officiating at, eg, Old Trafford. Rooney has just controlled the ball about 8 yards out, his right foot is about to strike the ball goalwards. A defender catches that foot, the ball skews away and Rooney goes down in a heap - which he is. What, I wonder does Mr Friend award? Perhaps we'll never know.

And those loveable Geordies are of course Newkybroons, not what I said.

Jelavic goes down easy at times but that doesn't make a shove in the back when you are in the air less of a foul. Defenders do it all the time but live with the risk that it won't be spotted or penalised. Jelavic could probably have stayed on his feet but he would have lost a good chance of keeping control of the ball anyway so he crumpled. Ref simply got it wrong.

Jelavic is obviously prevented from getting a clean shot away in the first incident by having to kick the defenders foot first. I haven't seen anything that makes me think that the defender got anything on the ball, and if he did why weren't we awarded a corner? You are not telling me that the ref saw the defender touch the ball a milli-second before Jelavic did, and it was obvious to everyone that Jelavic's foot hit something other than the ball in the act of shooting. Ref bottled it, IMO, choosing to believe that Jelavic simply mis-kicked.

Big Vic being wrestled to ground was sufficient for the penalty that was given, but Mirallas right leg was definitely impeded by the defenders left leg so two fouls were committed. Foul on Big Vic simply meant ref could avoid thorny issue of automatic dismissal for goal-scoring opportunity, especially as Wigan have had a couple of harsh decisions go against them recently.

I thought Mirallas was our other genuine striking option and some people are expecting him to pass up reasonable chances simply to give others more opportunities. A striker without a bit of a selfish streak or an unshakeable belief in his own ability? Yeah, that's the type we want!

'When he was shoved in the back in mid air Jelavic had every right to hit the deck and that is a penalty in any match you will see fairly officiated.'

What is this 'right to go down'? Either the push causes him to hit the deck or not. Any help from the player himself not to try to stay on his feet and continue play is cheating. How can it ba a foul otherwise? Stay on his feet he's got control of the ball. Takes his right to go down, he took a dive.

I can see why players get incensed going unfairly behind, as we did, but thankfully not even Jelavic would do what Garath Bale did with the Villa 'keeper yesterday. I didn't see the Suarez dive but surely Bale should get some punishment.

Thankfully, diving seems to be everywhere in the news now and the FA will need to take some 'difficult decisions'.

That aside, I don't know how anyone can defend officials from the Newcastle or Wigan games. No, there isn't a conspiracy... but the refereeing has been incompetent. Why does it seem like no-one is accountable from these ridiculous officials?

We have had one rub of the green when Felliani's hand ball was missed against Swansea, there is no doubt that goal should not have stood, but let's be clear: we would have won that game anyway because we were dominating and continued to dominate. We are now 4 points down because of incompetence. It is just not good enough.

The question was: Did Jelavic feign injury? – not if it was a dive or not. I wouldn't have been surprised if Jelavic had put that chance away but it wasn't as easy as you're making out. The fact is Jelavic is a diver and unlike Ian 587 I have heard people at the match screaming at him to stay on his feet.

The difference is that the RS all howl with derision and defend the snide little rat bastard. We, however, are embarrassed and scream at Jelavic to get up.

The biggest difference between Jelavix and the cheating scumbag from across the park, the scumbag goes down before any contact is made, usually Jelavic has been "nudged" or "touched". The major difference seems to be that, one should be a foul but is usually ignored by refs and the other is a diving cheating scumbag who has been a racist in a game of togger.

I think that Rodgers probably meant that his players should dive, when there has been a slight foul on them to get the decision, not to cheat and dive like Bale.....who has somehow managed to avoid the stigma of being a diving twat ....

anyhoo! Suraez is a diving bucktoothed fuckpig scumbag......and breathe!

The mantra of doing the right thing and not hassling officials and creating a fuss has probably cost our club silverware and significant cash over the years. The moral stance from Moyes is admirable in many respects, but everyone needs to be playing by the same rules or we shouldn't bother.

The FA have done FA about cheating in football, sky have also brushed it under the carpet by deliberately using phrases like 'simulation' instead of calling players out for what they are; probably because they don't want their precious franchise and the reputation of the 4 or 5 teams that they care about being dragged through the mud.

It never ceases to amaze me the fuss that gets made over a couple of words spoken during the heat of a football match and compare that to the utter apathy as a significant number of games are decided by players deliberately cheating over the last decade or two.

Next time we get done out of a goal, or have a player sent off where there was no need, we should ask ourselves whether we as a club stand up for our own as much and as forcefully as other clubs in the league.

I'm not suggesting for one moment that Moyes needs to start telling our players to cheat; I think a better solution would be to really start kicking up a stink in the media and putting calls into the referee association about decisions that have gone against us. Its too easy at the moment for refs to not give us decisions because they think that we're not going to create as much of a fuss as the sky 4/5.

I posted up these highlights before but again, look at them. They are both incredibly close, and that is the reason I have some sympathy for the officials and why I don't really for the linesman at Wigan because Kone had been, and still was offside for some time.
Check them out again. Gwladsy street.....................

When, like on saturday he is pushed in the back whilst in mid-air what is he supposed to do 'Hover'.

Try it out for yourself , jump up while your 12-13 stone mate pushes you from behind and see if you can stay on your feet.

Some TW's have strange ways of demonstrating their allegiance to Everton Football Club. Now if you want a diver think Anders Limpar , how many of us complained that he was failing to live up to the Everton way on that fateful day in 1994.

Remember this forum is open to supporters of other clubs , how they will relish to label our most potent goalscorer a 'diver'!

To clear up the earlier point about Fellaini's goal, the offside law refers to a player 'standing' in an offside position, ie feet. I won't deny that many linesmen would call it wrong given both the speed of the incident and the leaning angles of both Fellaini and the defender concerned - but that still doesn't take away the fact that it was a legitimate goal, and wrongly (if possibly understandably) ruled out.

bit.ly/PjbZq5

http://i.minus.com/iyzrJDtyWPpyY.gif

Jump up, try to chest a ball, and then see what happens when someone pushes you in the back when you're in mid-air. You'll look remarkably similar to Jelavic in that incident.

If someone falls to the ground whenever the contact doesn't merit it, then its a dive. End of story.

The touch on his back was minimal, and he choose to go down. His legs went for Christs sake.

You ask what else should he do.. I cannot believe that's a serious question.

"If someone falls to the ground whenever the contact doesn't merit it".

That is the nub of the disagreement here. You seem to be claiming that with his eye on the ball and an arm in his back he could have, what?, easily landed and kept his feet. Others, myself included, say its not so easy to do that, and the resulting fall was just that, and not a Suarez style dive.

He may have stumbled and fell, players do, unaided, but physical contact was being made by a player out of reach of playing the ball. And the laws, Law 12 to be a bit more precise, say that's a direct free kick.

Nobody, I think, has yet claimed it was outside the box. Bet you a huge majority of football watchers would say that had it been outside the box it would have been blown up for a foul.

Cheers
Ian

This was clearly stated at the time to have been introduced to take some advantage from defenders and transfer it to attackers. In situations that tight, the attacking player should have the benefit of the doubt, not the defender.

That clearly did not happen in the Newcastle game. What happened in the Wigan game goes into the realms of farce. I don't recall Law 11 saying 'OK, let's call it half a yard then'.

You know that stuff commentators spout about good refs being the ones you never notice. Well how many 'assistant referees' think they've had a 'good' game, according to their FA assessors, if they've gone through a match without giving an offside? They must be itching to get that flag up – shows they're doing their job you see. Big Belgian bloke with hair, loads of yellow cards. Must be off. Up you go. Job done. Wanker.

And by the way, he has to do it with his right hand. See Law 6.

You can resort to the laws all you want. I've read them just as much as anybody..

But that's irrelevant whenever its your interpretation of what happened that's in question.

You're relying on a position that the defender 'jumped into or charged into the back of Jelavic'. Neither of these things happened.

Merely touching a player does not constitute these actions. It's still a contact sport.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/oct/08/football-diving-referees-problem

The refs make decisions on hundreds of pushes in a match every time players come into contact with each other. It is a contact sport, players spend hours in the gym, they're strong and contact when in possession is always to be expected.

It all depends on the push. You may see that as ambiguous, but only if you choose to. We've all seen a thousand matches and a million replays and if you don't know what a foul is without referencing a literal description of a physical action then what if anything do you know?

Never once seen a rugby player hit the deck like that... etc etc...

You don't shout penalty at every corner kick do you?

The youtube clip I posted on another thread of Anichibe's goal had many many comments saying that all of the ball wasn't over the line. Plus, all I said was that I wasn't convinced it was over, in the sense that I couldn't see any daylight between line and ball.

So less of your "facts" please until you at least read what I say.

The youtube clip I posted on another thread of Anichibe's goal had many many comments saying that all of the ball wasn't over the line. Plus, all I said was that I wasn't convinced it was over, in the sense that I couldn't see any daylight between line and ball.

So less of your "facts" please until you at least read what I say.

Anyway, back on planet Earth I will reaffirm what I previously said. Jelavic was in the air when shoved and, as such, nobody (however robust or well trained and physically fit they may be) can reasonably be expected to remain in control when shoved off their point of landing whilst in mid air. On that point I will leave this thread as I genuinely feel it is likely to descend further into absurdity if these blatant observations continue to be ignored.

Have a good evening all