Moyes is Manager of the Month

John Dubay
1 Posted 09/10/2012 at 15:53:38

Deserved. All he has to do from now on is play his face at decisions, like Ferguson & Wenger do. We don't want unmerited help, just cosistency and fairness.

Liam Appleby
2 Posted 09/10/2012 at 15:59:22

Well deserved.

To think there are people on here who still want him out. Compare our first 15 to the 15 below from Smith's last game in charge. The man has worked miracles.

Simonsen, Pistone, Stubbs, Weir, Unsworth, Clarke, Gascoigne, Gemmill (Blomqvist 73), Linderoth (Alexandersson 45), Radzinski, Moore (Chadwick 45). Subs Not Used: Gerrard, Cleland.

Kevin Hudson
3 Posted 09/10/2012 at 17:30:44

Great news: I thought it would be a tough call between him & Steve Clarke, but credit where it is due.

Hopefully it won't be the kiss of death..!!

Peter Thistle
4 Posted 09/10/2012 at 17:32:20

Not sure 2 wins a draw and a loss is worthy of Manager of the month but we'll take it.

Tony Waring
5 Posted 09/10/2012 at 17:37:59

Well I think he has earned it. Who remembers about a year ago when plenty of folks on here were screaming for him to be ditched and nominating - among others, Messrs Coyle and Lambert, as better managers ? I rest my case.

Paul Ferry
6 Posted 09/10/2012 at 18:20:57

Tony (810) what's your point apart from a bit of puffy (and fluffy) triumphalism? Too right there were 'plenty of folks on here' this time last year 'screaming for him to be ditched' or pull his socks up and get it together at any rate. This time last year was the absolute opposite of this time this year, or perhaps you have a selective or fuzzy memory? The absolute opposite. So, does it make sense to you that a sea-change in form/nous ought to usher in a sea-change in attitudes? If not, then the people twatting the gaffer in early Winter 2011 are themselves the twats for not giving credit when it is fairly due.

Guess what, views can change according to results. It is 100% credible and understandable for Mr A.B. to slam the gaffer when he gets it wrong week-in-and-week-out (that would be the 1st half of last season) and for the same Mr. A.B. to heap praise on said gaffer when he gets it right week-in-and-week-out. It's hardly rocket science is it? Unless, needless to say, we should all have concrete unchanging opinions regardless of events on the pitch and sidelines. Get off ya little high horse and stop stirring things, okay?

Simon Temme
7 Posted 09/10/2012 at 18:55:51

Tony@810 Well said Sir. I was thinking exactly the same thing as news of Coyle's sacking came through. Despite his limtations that are well known to all toffees, Moyes a last seems to have been able to redefine the teams playing style and should be congratulated. Now if only he can gee himself up for the shite?

Phil Sammon
8 Posted 09/10/2012 at 19:38:40

Brian Ferry @ 817

There's criticising a manager and there's calling for his dismissal. Criticism is natural and absolutely warranted. Those people wanting Moyes' head on a stick this time last year deserve to have it thrown in their faces. We were terrible, everyone knows that, the difference is that some people still recognised the manager's ability.

James Martin
9 Posted 09/10/2012 at 19:31:29

Paul there is a crucial difference. Everyone slams the manager after a defeat and praises him after a win, I was ready to kill him after the Anfield derby. This is different though to openly pushing for his removal from the managerial seat. Tony is right we had every name under the sun being banded around as a replacement Lambert, Rodgers, Holloway, Coyle, Martinez, if only they were given a chance with big clubs people were saying. You can't call for him to be sacked if the results are going badly but then claim to be satisfied if the results are very very good (people on here were still dredging up Moyes out remnants after drawing away at Wigan). No one has concrete unchanging opinions, but if someone felt strongly enough (which a lot of people on here did) to come on here and say that they wanted Moyes out then they presumably must have seen enough over the last ten years to make that claim and stick by it. If this is the case then i'd invite those same people to come out now and say they still want Moyes out because surely the pattern of 10 years can't have changed over 6 months. Equally anyone unwilling to stick by their previous assertion should come out and apologise for calling for Moyes to be fired. I doubt neither will happen though because 'Moyes out' was nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to a bad run of results and the knee has jerked back again now that the results are good. No one was adding the conditional to their statements along the lines of 'if this continues for another season or two then I want Moyes fired', no most of them were quite simply 'MOYES OUT'. Those with the patience to stick by him through a rare rough period can now enjoy this football guilt free whilst others can be content in the knowledge that if they'd got their way they could well have been enjoying Brendan's vision right now with 6 points from 7 games and Jelavic loaned to West Ham.

Ian Bennett
10 Posted 09/10/2012 at 20:02:24

Spot on phil.

Mike Green
11 Posted 09/10/2012 at 20:19:07

Well said Paul Ferry #817 - yet again the voice of reason.

Andy Crooks
12 Posted 09/10/2012 at 20:09:37

Paul Ferry, excellent post (#817). The triumphalism of those who defended the indefensible is something to behold.

James Martin, I called for Moyes to resign and I make absolutely no apology for it. Also, I am enjoying the football now totally free of guilt. He dithered over a lucrative contract and produced some truly dreadful dirge after he signed it.

Now, you talk of ten years patience being rewarded, what sanctimonious nonsense. David Moyes has, deservedly, won manager of the month. Not a trophy. Save the crowing till next May. If by that time we have continued to play good football and/or won a trophy I might consider a helping of humble pie.

Brendan McLaughlin
13 Posted 09/10/2012 at 20:37:13

So let me see....as we sit proudly at the business end of the premiership....the people who called for Moyes to be sacked were right & the people who called for Moyes to be backed were wrong. Ya just couldn't make it up!

Dennis Stevens
14 Posted 09/10/2012 at 20:34:11

When Moyes took over from Smith a decade ago I had great hope for this young manager who seemed to have such great potential. However, it has become apparent to me that we won't win any silverware under Moyes. So, whilst it makes a nice change to start a season brightly rather than finishing strongly, as is usuually the case, it hasn't caused me to reappraise Moyes just yet. Moyes is a good manager but I don't think has done or will do enough to ever be considered great. Nonetheless, I'd happily have him for another ten years as he proves me wrong season after season.

James Martin
15 Posted 09/10/2012 at 20:47:03

Andy did you even read my post. At no point did I mention that this spell of current from is reward for ten years of patience.

Contrary to popular belief on here I haven't viewed the last ten years as some sort of durge to suffer through with good football only coming since January 2012. It's been a mixture of highs and lows but for most of it in my opinion we have been on a general upward curve.

This was until Arteta and Lescott were sold and we were treated to 18 rough months (not entirely moyes's fault due to the players the board had left him with). This was arguably the first downward trough in Moyes's era and there were those who chose to stick by him and those like yourself who wanted him out.

Now, as I said, you must have come to the conclusion in two ways, you either analysed what you'd seen over the past ten years and though 'he's had a good go, we've won nothing, time for him to go', or you kneejerked because of one and a half mediocre seasons and so proclaimed that he had to be fired.

If the first is true then what has changed, this must just be another spell of good form similar to 07/08 or the FA cup run or 04/05, you know it won't last so must still want him out. If you want him to stay (which you seem to be alluding to) then it seems that your decision on whether Moyes deserves a job or not is entirely dependent on how we are playing at a certain time (not even a long period of time)which could be viewed by some people as a knee jerk reaction.

Using your logic then you mustn't have backed any manager from 1995 onwards as they haven't won a trophy, the popular consensus seems to be that a lot of them haven't played good football either. So do you only back them when they're on a bit of a winning streak and call for their head the rest of the time?

Mike Green
16 Posted 09/10/2012 at 20:57:28

Brendan 836 - I'm obviously missing something but where does anybody say that?

Andy Crooks
17 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:03:31

Brendan, I never said I was right and come May I'll be happy to be entirely wrong.I do think,though that those who have called for his resignation have often been justified in doing so.

John Audsley
18 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:23:39

Paul Ferry 817

Brilliant Post, correct in every way

Mike Green
19 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:29:05

James Martin – I for one downed tools last season and decided it was time for Moyes to go. I’m not one of the “M.O.B” - if anything I’ve been labelled on this here as an “Apologist” but I’m not going to apologise for saying enough’s enough last season.

For most of the last 10 years I can’t remember many periods when I was wowed by Moyes, or our performance but understood the realities of where we were, took my hat off to how he’d bought and sold and generally supported him. 10 years remember.

What got to me in the end was the football we were playing (still playing), the fact we’d never bought a right winger in a decade, were playing 4-5-1 at home against the likes of Wigan and were gradually, bit by bit, getting worse. You could even see it in Moyes whole demeanour that as a team we were starting to really go down the pan, the stuff we were being dished up was beyond dire and rightly or wrongly I’d had enough and thought it was finally time for a change. Never had that feeling…?

At that point you were no doubt sat saying to anyone who would listen “Don’t worry lads, after Xmas we’re going to sign an international 20 goal a season striker, Fellaini’s going to really prove he’s world class and Darron Gibson’s going to go out on the tiles with Rooney, get booted out by Fergie, we’re going to pick him up for £500k and he’s going to be the glue that turns our season around. On top of that we’re going to start playing football that’s UNRECOGNISABLE to anything we’ve seen for the last decade and be firmly at the top end of the table, no problem…..”

Where did you get you’re Degree in Hindsight from…..?

Philip Quilliam
20 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:18:55

Not sure I understand the rotten stench of hypocrisy here. Either he is the right man for the job in which case he should be backed or he isn't and he should be sacked and a run of good or bad results shouldn't affect that decision. You can't sack someone too see if they can do better in the future because they won't be there. Equally if there is someone better out there who is willing to do the job then he should be hired. No one will take you seriously if your views change on the back of a few results either way. There are a few posts that seem to imply there is nothing wrong with vascillating one way then the other. Stick to your guns if you believe you are right, as long as it doesn't stop you enjoying the football.

Chris Leyland
21 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:43:40

So, to summarise, the 'apologists' are just gloaters now, despite actually not changing their views and sticking by Moyes. Meanwhile the 'MOB' are well within their rights to change their minds and say, whilst Moyes might actually seem to be doing ok now and shouldn't therefore be sacked, it was perfectly right to sack him last year as he wasn't the right man for the job at that point . However, come a few more defeats and it will be ok to start saying he should be sacked again. But should that not happen and he carries on winning games again then actually he should stay afterall.

As Phil Q says, you either believe he is the right man for the job or not. You shouldn't be swayed by a few results. But then again supporters are a fickle bunch aren't we?

James Martin
22 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:42:47

Mike you haven't been wowed by moyes in the last ten years? Were you not wowed when he took a relegation candidate side shron of its best player to the champions league? It was nothing short of an absolute miracle in that day and age. Were you not wowed when we reached our first cup final since 1995. not wowed knocking the RS out of the cup, not wowed blowing Fiorentina away on the best night in recent Goodison history, not wowed by Arteta's dazzling skills or one of Everton's greatest left backs, not wowed by beating City countless times home and away, not wowed thrashing Sunderland 7-1? What were you watching throughout the 90s Mike? Or has that time been conveniently forgotten by a lot on here, we won the league in 87 then Moyes came along and took us downhill, it didn't happen that way. Cup win aside the best we had before Moyes was one season of finishing 6th salivating about Jeffers and Campbell upfront. Perennial relegation strugglers, hoofball merchants, rubbish players and generally no respect from any team in the league. All conveniently forgotten to be rpelaced by the myth that we've had ten years of rubbish football under Moyes. Truly laughable.

On another note Chelsea have played 451 every game this season and are top of the league, we've also played it and are playing some of our best football, yet still people use it as a stick to beat Moyes and then have the temerity to accuse him of tactical naivety, baffling.

Ian Bennett
23 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:45:15

Mike - what exactly were you expecting at the start of last season? Stale squad, further sales depleting the squad (Vaughan, turner, yak, arteta, beck ford). And what was he allowed to bring in? McFadden, drenthe, and straq.

I am sure you will tell me he earns 3m a season, but any professional who had ploughed in 9 years of effort would be pissed off with the above hand dealt. To his credit he got shot of Saha and billy, brought in Donovan, Gibson, pienaar and jelavic and hasn't looked back.

The sales of Cahill and Rodwell have allowed the squad to be refreshed this season, and we're rumoured 12 months earlier. For whatever reason that didn't happen, but could of changed the picture on the playing side given bill and the club are always skint.

Brendan McLaughlin
24 Posted 09/10/2012 at 21:47:57

Mike #855
Penultimate paragragh....I'm obviously missing something but where does anyone say that? And is it sreally so difficult to believe for a man who supported Moyes for 10 years that there aren't other fans who continue to be equally or more supportive beyond the point where you personally thought...enoughs enough?

Ciarán McGlone
25 Posted 09/10/2012 at 22:35:56

Brendan... those who wanted Moyes sacked were of the opinion that we were playing crap and that we could play much better.

Do you disagree?

Barry Rathbone
26 Posted 09/10/2012 at 22:22:49

It's Moyes who's changed.

Why should critics keep at him if he's suddenly started doing what they've been asking?

Critics don't have the same cult thing going that his unquestioning devotees have.

Providing unswerving criticism of Moyes isn't what it's about, it's about getting a better Everton.

He's just said himself he didn't like the guff we churned out previously so he's done something about it. He notably traded Bily and Rodders, among others (options that have always been available), stopped buying centre halves/journeymen and bought pace and creativity.

It's only stuff many of us have been crying out for years about. In addition no camel loaded with cash turned up as previously stated by his devotees as the only way such change could be effected.

The problem with some fans is Moyes comes before Everton — you wanna sort your priorities.

Dave White
27 Posted 09/10/2012 at 22:44:11

Good or bad I struggle to think of anyone who could have done any better with the same resources.

And by anyone I exclude those managers who were never realistic prospects, i.e. the Fergusons, Mourinhos, Wengers etc.

Happy to listen to suggestions though!

Dave White
28 Posted 09/10/2012 at 22:55:06

Fair play Barry, well said mate

Ian Bennett
29 Posted 09/10/2012 at 22:58:30

Barry - trading Rodgers was only possible when he was fit, a rare thing over the last year or so. Billy could of been traded earlier, but it depends was anyone interested and was Moyes looking to recoup all of that dead money?

James Martin
30 Posted 09/10/2012 at 22:57:47

No Barry for nearly all fans Everton comes first, that's why so many of us support Moyes in the long run regardless of short term fun because we believe he has us on an upwards trajectory and is doing a better job than a Lambert or Rodgers type figure. The deals for Bily and Rodwell were not always available, if Man City don't have 17 million burning a hole in their pocket then there is no sale for Rodwell, that deal was a culmination of factors including the sale of De Jong, the loss of form of Barry, the success of Yaya Toure in an advanced role, the desperation of approaching the season without a signing having been made. If one of these circumstances doesn't happen then Rodwell isn't sold. It's not as though Moyes was just sitting there waiting to press the sell button but dithered over it.

Once had money he bought pace and flair, but don't make out that he only bought defenders, Pienaar Donovan Drenthe Stracqualursi Vellios Gibson. None of these are defenders, he bought Heitinga and Distin to replace Lescott, and we've had Jagielka Hibbert and Baines for ages. Where are all these defenders Moyes is always buying? If anything he's barely changed his defenders and has chopped and changed his attackers over the years.

Ian Bennett
31 Posted 09/10/2012 at 23:08:25

Rodders - bloody ipad

Barry Rathbone
32 Posted 09/10/2012 at 23:16:15

My point is under this regime we will always have to sell, the player's name is incidental, whether it be Bily, Rodwell, Baines, Fellaini etc he has to manage the situation to our advantage and this time round he's excelled.

This team and how it's playing is unrecognisable as a Moyes of old team and saying otherwise is just telling porkies.

The fella is at long last beginning to manage at a level that unites rather than divides fans. He's moved away from "hoofy" and we're slicing teams open even when losing a game, previously we were at a loss if we went a goal down it was game over.

I repeat, what he's done is under the same regime, circumstances and limitations of yore. The fact he's doing what his critics have long asked for is not a case for turning on them or getting in a lather because noses are out of joint because we haven't fell apart playing proper football.

Rather give a hearty cheer and raise a glass to the perseverance and damned insight of these veritable prophets (diet coke will do .... I'm trying to lose weight).

Andy Crooks
33 Posted 09/10/2012 at 23:08:52

James, no one is suggesting or has ever suggested that we have had ten years of rubbish under Moyes .Amid the dross there has been some fine football. What I am suggesting,however, is that the coach has had change of heart . An epiphany, a moment of enlightenment, a dream, a realization that unless he forgets forty points as the equivalent of a trophy he won't ever be boss of MAN U.

Either that, or Gibson and Jelavic are the two best signings in the history of football and have unlocked the attacking genius that as always been Moyes.

Ciarán McGlone
34 Posted 09/10/2012 at 23:24:10

The year we qualified for the champions league was some of the most insipid, dull football I've ever seen played.. by any team.

I did enjoy the Villareal games though.

Mike Green
35 Posted 09/10/2012 at 23:28:58

Andy #884 – we have had a lot of shit lets be right.

James #861

In my opinion Moyes taking us to 4th was a fantastic achievement but it wasn’t a miracle.

We were dire in the semi-final of the Cup v Man Utd, scraped though on penalties and got stuffed in the final (for reasons I understand but at no point was I left “wowed”).

Dan Gosling scored a last ditch winner in the 118th minute of a replay to knock Liverpool out 1-0 at home. Ecstatic I was but not "wowed".

I loved watching Arteta, particularly in the period immediately prior to his injury against Newcastle but still don’t think he’s reached those heights since or ever will again.

I’ve enjoyed watching Baines development, he’s a class act and great to watch when playing in tandem with Pienaar.

As for Sunderland, in 10 years someone somewhere is going to get a beating you would hope, wouldn’t you…?

Man City – I took great satisfaction out of those results and performances but they were grudge matches more than anything, and we’ve often failed to replicate that kind of performance more than a couple of times a season in my opinion.

Fiorentina I’ll give you – the type of performance that we’ve seen a lot of this season but for the previous ten…...how many….?

Beating Liverpool 3-0 in 2006 is still probably the highlight for me, and yes, I did leave “wowed” as I left the ground but as I said:

“For most of the last 10 years I can’t remember many periods when I was wowed by Moyes, or our performance”

I never said it’d never happened and for every example you’ve given above there have been massive slices of dour, negative, defensive football and bungled cup runs to counter it – which may have been pragmatic but I wasn’t wowed by hardly any of it and after ten years I’d had enough.

You just have to look at the Roll of Honour of our top league scorers during Moyes tenure to get a taste for the last ten years.

2001-02 – Ferguson 6 (2 pens)
2002-03 – Radzinski 11
2003-04 – Rooney 9
2004-05 – Cahill 9
2005-06 – Beattie 10 (2 pens)
2006-07 – Johnson 11
2007-08 – Yakubu 15 (1 pen)
2008-09 – Cahill 8
2009-10 – Saha 13 (2 pens)
2010-11 – Cahill 9
2011-12 – Jelavic 9 (1 pen).

If it wasn’t for Jelavic last season – who came in January our top league scorer was Osman on 5…. Followed by Anichebe on 4… then Baines on 4 (3 pens)….

I’m not anti-Moyes, never have been and I’m pleased he’s been given Manager of the Month but I don’t think I was unjustified in wanting a change around this time last year.

The start to this season is light and shade compared too much of the last ten, and if you don’t think so we’ve obviously been watching different football matches, or simply have different standards.

Andy Crooks
36 Posted 09/10/2012 at 23:40:57

Mike, exactly.

Andy Meighan
37 Posted 10/10/2012 at 09:15:59

Let's put things into perspective here. Moyes getting Manager of the Month was deserved but let's question the quality of the opposition we've played, Man Utd apart. We've faced teams with the possible exception of WBA who will be lucky to finish in the top half of the table and I include Newcastle in that.

Having said that, some of the football at times has been a joy to watch so long may it continue. Let's just hope he puts another nail in QPR's and them dirty bastards' coffins. More of the same please.

James Martin
38 Posted 10/10/2012 at 09:39:45

Mike I think you have drastically different standards did you grow up being fed on Harvey Kendall and Ball or something? I grew up in a relegation dogfight and spent the majority of my youth in one. Your basic argument in that post is that everything good Moyes has done has left you only satisfied whilst anything else is evidence that he had to go. We've had few highs because we were a relegaton club, we were not competing at the top for trophies of any sort, European football was unthinkable before Moyes arrived, our best days were staying up, people wer eon the pitch when that happened. Now you're moaning because we got to a cup final but you weren't entertained on the way, we got to 4th but it was turgid (winning) football. You forget that we battered Liverpool for most of that Gosling game but because it wasn't 5-0 you've overlooked that one. You complaint hat there's been only one Fiorentina, the last night like that one was 85, most clubs might have one in their history but you think Moyes is going to conjure multiple ones in ten eyars, and you've said that you're only satisfied with beating City home and away, as if its a routine thing that everyone is doing. The 3-0 vs Liverpool wasn't even a good performance it was just a good score line. Just one of these classic 'I want to be entertained' fans. Arteta was good then he got injured and hasn't been the same, don't say you weren't entertained before then though, what difference does it maker if you weren't afterwards?

Martin Mason
39 Posted 10/10/2012 at 10:09:39

I wish they would stop giving these Manager of the Month awards to Moyes. It makes some on here look so ridiculous it isn't true.

You'd need a JCB to move the shite that is unloaded on Moyes and how badly we've done under him

Tony J Williams
40 Posted 10/10/2012 at 09:41:38

I have yet to "wowed" since our last piece of silverware.

I have enjoyed immensely our wins over Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, Tottingham, Arsenal and the win against Newcastle to cement 4th. Not wowed but very close.

Mike, what does the list of our top scorers prove? You can have a wow game and no goals, our 0-0 draw before the 4-4 was one of the best and most exciting games I have ever seen.

Our many 1-0 wins in 2004/5 gave me many a reason to stay out on County Road to all hours.

I don't get the mentality of "only goals will make this game exciting". It's the foottball and the passion on the pitch that gets my blood pumping, not the 6-2 scoreline (flashback to Villa game......and shudders)

Philip Quilliam
41 Posted 10/10/2012 at 09:57:36

In the real world we are realistically starting each season chasing 2 trophies because our financial position will prevent us from winning the premiership. This means that, ignoring the odd European day trip, DM has chased 20 trophies in his time. So I don't understand what the point is in playing weakened sides in these matches. Equally, ignoring a low blip in 2003/4, our league position has been remarkably consistent around an average of 6th or 7th with an average of 59 points per season. In the 10 years pre Moyes, ignoring a high blip in 95/6, our average position was 15th with an average of 45 points per season. When he arrived 10 years ago if you had asked Evertonians to look ahead 10 years most of them would have snatched your hand off for that kind of result. It is very early days in this season but the guys who want him replaced have a very valid point in that the style that the team is playing now is a vast improvement yet our financial position is not vastly better so why couldn't we do it before? My position is if he stays is it more likely that his current "epihany", as it has been called, will continue or will he be tempted to drift back into less attractive tactics/style? On balance I think he will carry on in his current way mainly because it is very enjoyable and it must be a real thrill for him to be managing a fantastic club playing a style of football that has been universally praised. He has made a rod for his own back though because he has shown what can be done and I would like a bigger emphasis on the FA Cup. With the best will in the world I can't see him being offered any of the managers jobs at Man U, City, Arsenal or Chelsea which are surely the only premiership jobs that he would consider leaving Everton for.

James Martin
42 Posted 10/10/2012 at 11:46:33

I don't think he's had an epiphany, he's just done very well in a recent transfer window. You cannot find a player of Jelavic's quality anywhere in the world for 5 million unless yuou get very lucky. This luck was Rangers meltdown. Equally players like Gibson are not 500k, Mirallas was lesser known in the Greek league and so also came at a reduced price. These better players have allowed the style of football to be changed but he couldn't have just picked them up whenever he wanted, a certain set of conditions had to be in place for these deals to come off at the price we got them for. Instead of costing 10 million this bundle could have easily cost 35 million in another period of time.

Seamus Murphy
43 Posted 10/10/2012 at 11:54:49

James you may not want to call it an epiphany but he has definitely changed his tactics and that is why the so called "mob" are pacified now, and for me that is totally acceptable. We simply don't see the Hoofballs from Jagielka, Neville and co that we were seeing in the first half of last season.
All the triumphalists like Tony Waring and co could be just as easily questioning why Moyes refused to employ proper footballing tactics until now rather than childish in your face taunting of fellow fans who dared question Moyes.
Personally, 25 years of being an Evertonian has thought me not to get my hopes up. Despit this current run being enjoyable it will undoubtedly come to a crushing end with no silverware, players being sold to fund Kenwrights ineptitude and more rebuilding. I sincerely hope I am wrong and Moyes goes on to prove that he is the God that so many of you believe he is and actually WIN something in my bloody lifetime. But as I say, 25 years of being and Evertonian, and more tellingly ten years of Moyes and Kenwright has thought me not toget my hopes up too much. It simply hurts too much when it inevitably falls apart. For now im just enjoying the football each week while controlling my expectations.

Brendan McLaughlin
44 Posted 10/10/2012 at 12:05:21

Lets not forget a lot of the MOB were claiming Moyes had to go cos he would never change, could never change and was in fact so arrogant and stubborn as to be incapable of change. Cue better football, better results and better league position....Moyes has changed, don't ya know?

John Ford
45 Posted 10/10/2012 at 12:14:16

Realistically the only teams who 'wow' their supporters are those who win consistently, and of course win trophies. Statistically that means you need skip loads of money. Since money became seriously polarized,In the last dozen years, no team without this kind of cash has ever delivered top performances on a consistent basis... it just doesn't happen, there are no examples anywhere. Moyes has been closest to it and has done a good job in his time.

The league is full of dissatisfied fans, this applies to every team without massive resources, the only exception being teams who are happy just to stay up.

Seamus is right to temper his expectations because its unrealistic to do otherwise. We know we won't win the league, so basically we all temper our expectations - that wasn't the case in the 80s or the 70s when seasons began with optimism that we might just do something... and yes even when were shite in the 70s we should have actually won the league one year 77-78.

Moyes hasn't changed. He just has better players around him now. Jelavic was a cracking deal carried out under the radar of other clubs, and Gibsons value has surely exceeded everyone's expectations - incredible business. If he could spend more we'd have an even better looking team. Credit to Moyes, he may bottle, and frustratingly so on some occasions, but he's gets a decent bang for his limited buck

Robbie Muldoon
47 Posted 10/10/2012 at 12:44:41

Brilliant Barry! You have just articulated the closest thing to the truth there.

Mike Green
48 Posted 10/10/2012 at 13:16:09

James #917 – “Just one of these classic 'I want to be entertained' fans.”

You say it like wanting to be entertained by watching football’s an insult? Yes, I do want to be entertained – always have done, always will do. By inference it sounds like you’re either not bothered, or you’re just in the results business, one or the other.

One thing that I can’t understand is, if that’s the case, how come you’re such a big fan of the Fiorentina match, Everton “blowing Fiorentina away on the best night in recent Goodison history’ when, ultimately, we lost.

I know why I enjoyed that game, I’m just one of those classic “I want to be entertained” fans…… how about you? And is that why, no matter how shit the football gets on the pitch you’ll stick by a manager so long as he keeps us “safe”?

Seamus Murphy
49 Posted 10/10/2012 at 13:41:10

Good point Mike. I want to be entertained and also make no apologies for that. Some of the dross we have had to endure over the years has been terrible. During that time a lot of the "mob" were calling on Moyes to be more adventurous and come out of his negative mindset. I remember the "apologists" saying that we would get hammered if we done so – an argument that I don't believe holds weight but thats just my opinion.

Take last weeks result for instance - I am not over the moon with a draw away to Wigan but I certainly am more pleased with a draw away to Wigan playing football that I would have been a year ago by playing hoofball and I feel that is quite legitimate.

Kevin Tully
50 Posted 10/10/2012 at 13:57:11

Just remind me who said, "I wouldn't have paid to watch some of the football we have been playing"?

No-one can argue with the Pounds vs Points record of Moyes, but you cannot deny it has been painful viewing at times.

I don't go along with the new signings theory either – Arteta has just been hailed as the most successful passer of a ball in the whole of Europe FFS! Gibson a better player? I don't think so. Yak was every bit as good as Jelavic as well.

Moyes was in a tactical rut with Cahill playing behind a striker – and he has now completely changed the way we play. If he didn't like it, he could have sold Cahill & Saha, along with a few others and changed his style.

I have said Moyes needed to be less defensive, and more adventurous with his formations, I have never denied the fact he is good manager.

It is not as black & white as some like to make out – Moyes in or out, we just wanted to see his teams express themselves, not go through games without a shot on target at home.

James Martin
51 Posted 10/10/2012 at 14:38:52

Never said anything about sticking by him as long as he keeps us safe Mike. I've stuck by him because I saw the upward progression we were on and then he had a bit of a blip, brought on by a combination of factors the main one being the boards inability to reinvest any funds. With hindsight I can see that it was a mistake of his to stick so long with the old guard but I can understand why he did it considering the perilous situation we were in and the quality of his fringe players (as we are now painfully aware of after the Leeds game).

All football fans want to be entertained, Mike, but some accept that you can't have it all the time, you can't have it when the board doesn't allow you to replace your best players. You can't have it in a team made up of journeymen and Championship players (04-05) because we've got no money. You can't have it in an FA Cup semi-final when your two best players are missing against Man Utd; what were you expecting that we'd spank them 5-0 with the whole world watching? You get it in games like Fiorentina (like you said a great game thus proving I'm not in the results business, is any Everton fan in the results business (perhaps those who call for the managers head after a single away draw)) when a performance comes together and it is exciting.

This thread started out as a debate about those who said he should have been fired last season. Your argument is basically as long as I'm being entertained he can stay. If you haven't found many moments of genuine entertainment over the last ten years then you need to redefine your expectations of entertainment or go and support Barcelona. The highs and lows of the Moyes era have been both jubilant and crushing, the same journey fans of every team have to go through. Don't make out that its been ten years of drudgery for all Evertonians because it hasn't. Even in one of the highs of finishing 4th you're still not moved because you've not judged it fitting entertainment. Basically anything Moyes has achieved is worthless because you haven't been entertained but his failures are oh so relevant. Just buy a Sky season ticket to La Liga and save yourself the chore of watching us.

Bill Griffiths
52 Posted 10/10/2012 at 14:45:47

While I personally believe BK is a true Blue at heart and is doing his best to sort things out and find a buyer I can understand and appreciate to an extent the arguments made against him.

However I completely fail to understand those on here who are anti DM. While I don't agree with all his decisions and appreciate he does make mistakes I don't see that any other manager on the planet could have achieved any better given the circumstances during his tenure.

There are people on here saying get rid of him because he has never won anything but as far as I am concerned there is no other manager who could have replaced him and won anything.

Mike Green
53 Posted 10/10/2012 at 15:02:59

James #980 – “This thread started out as a debate about those who said he should have been fired last season.”

No it didn’t - this thread started out as a congratulatory piece on David Moyes receiving a MOTM award until it was hijacked by yourself telling everyone what a clever boy you were.

All I’m doing is trying to get across WHY people felt the way they did last season, as I was one of them – and I’m not part of the MOB etc etc so I’d have thought being a Moyes fan you’d be interested but it appears you’re not interested in that at all – all you’re interested in is massaging your own needy ego.

Well go ahead and enjoy – but don’t tell me what I can or can't think, who I can or can't support, what I can or can't do or what is or isn’t decent football when frankly you clearly haven’t got a clue – OK?

Tony #925 – I agree with you but like I said, it was to get a taste of how we’d done over the past ten years in order to explain some of my growing frustration.

Does it not tell a story that in two of the past four seasons our highest scorer was an ageing midfielder renowned for scoring from set pieces – that he didn’t break double figures either year and no one could better him even though he missed one in four of all league fixtures across those two seasons…?

It may have been right up James's street but with the greatest of respect does that paint a picture of flowing, attacking, bums on seats, have-a-go, entertaining football?

James Martin
54 Posted 10/10/2012 at 15:53:29

Mike calm down mate no need for any personal insults I haven't thrown any at you. We both have alternative views that's fine. This thread was originally hijacked by Paul having a go at Tony, I just waded in on his side, and then you waded in against me that's how all debates happen. I haven't told you who you can or can't support, and if anything you've been the one lecturing me on what is or isn't decent football. No need to kick off and detract from what was a decent clash of opinion. I apologise if any of my text has personally offended you, that was never my intention, and if stating my opinion is 'massaging my own needy ego' then that is a sin all of us on here are guilty of.

Mike Green
55 Posted 10/10/2012 at 16:00:49

James -

#992 - "I haven't told you who you can or can't support"

#980 - "go and support Barcelona....", "Just buy a Sky season ticket to La Liga and save yourself the chore of watching us."

Apology accepted and I apologise for getting hot under the collar, it was unnecessary.

The good news is as far as the football's concerned I think we're all in agreement that we're happy at the moment eh? I just wish we had a game this weekend.

Martin Mason
56 Posted 10/10/2012 at 16:18:56

Why do people need to make complicated that which is very simple? Moyes has built and dismantled several teams now, he has worked within the very limited means at his disposal and he has bought and sold and experimented tactically to try to get the balance right. During this time Everton have played everything from absolute drudgery to sublime stuff, they have played in Europe where they have played from breathtakingly badly to very well.

At all times though he has played with small weak squads and overall we have done, as all of the football world apart from a minority of Everton fans acknowledge, staggeringly well. He has made mistakes, he has done some things that defy logic but he has developed as a manager and his buys have got steadily better and he now has a squad which can play and he is encouraging them to play well. For me he has played negatively when we had a side that was so weak that it was negativity or potential failure.

The guy has proven himself time after time to be a great manager but human too, I believe that he was and is the right man at the right time for Everton and he has my almost unconditional support.

John Dubay
57 Posted 10/10/2012 at 18:39:20

Deserved it for 3-1 win v Southampton, 3-0 v Swansea, 4-2 win v Newcastle
and 2-1 win v Wigan.

Andy Crooks
58 Posted 10/10/2012 at 21:41:15

Martin, I love your last line "almost unconditional support". It's like an old-fashioned vote of confidence.

Jim Harrison
59 Posted 11/10/2012 at 08:00:17

League finishes since 1987

1986-87 42 16 4 1 49 11 10 4 7 27 20 86 1st
1987-88 40 14 4 2 34 11 5 9 6 19 16 70 4th
1988-89 38 10 7 2 33 18 4 5 10 17 27 54 8th
1989-90 38 14 3 2 40 16 3 5 11 17 30 59 6th
1990-91 38 9 5 5 26 15 4 7 8 24 31 51 9th
1991-92 42 8 8 5 28 19 5 6 10 24 32 53 12th

* Prior to 1981-82, only two points were awarded for a win
FA Premier League / Premiership
Home Away
Season P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts Pos
1992-93 42 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 -2 53 13th
1993-94 42 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 -21 44 17th
1994-95 42 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 -7 50 15th
1995-96 38 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 +20 61 6th
1996-97 38 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 -13 42 15th
1997-98 38 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 -15 40 17th
1998-99 38 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 -7 43 14th
1999-2k 38 7 9 3 36 19 5 5 9 23 28 +12 50 13th
2000-01 38 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 -14 42 16th
2001-02 38 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 -12 43 15th
2002-03 38 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 -1 59 7th
2003-04 38 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 -12 39 17th
2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th
2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th
2010-11 38 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 +6 54 7th
2011-12 38 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 +10 56 7th

This link demonstrates the goal differences since the introduction of the EPL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Everton_FC_cumulative_Goal_Difference_92-10.09.png

Looks pretty plain to me that Moyes has done a good job compared to anone since 1987.

Ciarán McGlone
60 Posted 12/10/2012 at 09:31:03

"Let's not forget a lot of the MOB were claiming Moyes had to go cos he would never change, could never change, and was in fact so arrogant and stubborn as to be incapable of change."
---------------------------

It appears I have forgotten... you couldn't be a dear, and post a couple of examples of this?