Everton snatch a draw from the jaws of victory

A fantastic game utterly ruined by being a negative git right at the end and inviting the pressure on us,,ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

26 chances including some very easy attempts.

Seamus had a good game at RB but got completely lost when he found himself in CM. It was poor from him but we had enough defenders on the park to read the game.

We simply miss way too many chances to be a top 4 team, Naismith's at the end was the worst.

Jelavic looks shot of confidence too which isn't helping the team.

The finishers take the blame for this result.

Absolute kick to the stomach though. Shit balls monkey fuck.

Still, Arsenal and Spurs lost so we've gained on them regards to top 4, so if what you say is correct Patrick its the same for them, and so the least incompetent will finish 4th. I'll take it.

Some bizzare substitutions by Moyes as well today. Coleman fast asleep for their second.

I'm determined not to be pessimistic about it.

I'm wondering if our attacking mindset (love it btw) is somehow contributing to our defenders turning off since most of the play is in the opponent's half...

Who do you blame?

The forwards for not scoring more? 2-1 is 3 points.

The defence for letting in a jammy free kick and a gift of a goal at the end.

The manager for reverting to his usual negativity while we're looking very good at the back and still likely to bag a third.

You can bet your house on how an Everton game is going to pan out these days!

Answers on a postcard please.

All in all a great performance that on a luckier day might have yielded a 4-1 away win. So as it is a point is disappointing. BUT we are in 4th with a good team and a winnable run of games. We have to make sure we beat Sunderland or else I may start believing those who say we have no realistic shot at 4th.

Osman and Naismith should have a competition to see who has the weakest shot!!

One thing though guys - I've watched Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle & the shite this season and fourth place is there for the taking.

We have got 3 of the next four at home and Reading away, now is the time to put our marker down for that 4th spot.

Glass half full for me !

Blame the players!! We had so many chances to kill the game off, Fulham should have been dead and buried. Naismith had two huge chances.

The only positive thing is if we carry on playing like that, without Gibson as well, then we have a very good of at least finishing 5th/6th

Coleman who I thought played brilliant was to blame for losing the ball in midfield. Plenty of others could have cleared it but didn't and Coleman also got muscled out at the far post from Sidwell. Nothing to do with Distin coming on.

Nothing wrong with any of the subs.

Just bad finishing and a bit of bad luck, thats all.

Absolutely sick as fuck.

Seems there are those fearing we can't challenge for 4th, and yet go up to 4th. Where's the logic?

We should have at least 5-6 more points in the bag , but we haven't .
We should be second or third on attacking performances , but we're not.
What happens when we have a period where we are struggling to create chances?

BTW our last 4 games were seen by most as winnable and we have failed to win one of them.

Jelavic's body language is also a concern , he certainly doesn't look as enthusiastic as he was during the last campaign.

We've got a good side, albeit temperamental, but annoying to hear Moyes being "clever" again with his subs. Fundamental flaw in his psyche this business of banging on defenders for attackers.

He brought a defender on for a striker who did nothing all game with 3 minutes to go.

Moyes trying to see out a game for the last 3 minutes wasn't why we drew this match.

I don't see the problem with it. It makes perfect sense to me.

Except I am struggling to see how he is not also to be blamed for making us an exciting team to watch, creating 26 chances away from home at a club in the top 7, and getting us 2-1 with about a minute to go and a team with a chance of 4th place this year.

Presume it was somebody else that was repsonsible for the first 89 minutes and he is was only responsible for the error in the last minute.

Silver lining is sounds like we played well again, should've won comfortably, so things could be a lot worse. Onward, and hopefully, upward.

COYB.

Our problem has been conceding early. I place much of that blame on Neville. Today was twice in recent weeks that his mistake led to an opening goal. Against QPR his inability to win the ball after a cleared corner led to a break and their only goal. Today, whilst one yellow away from a ban, he sticks out his leg to trip Berbatov to set up Ruiz's nice free kick. That's four points dropped from those two mistakes alone. I can't think of anyone else in the side who's made such monumental errors. Without those two mistakes, we'd be tied with City on points and have a four point advantage over Spurs.

Hopefully Gibson is back for Sunderland and Neville gets dropped. Our defense also needs to stop switching off after we grab a lead. We've had too many goals conceded due to poor marking. That's basic...it's not like we're giving up spectacular goals. Seamus failed to pick up the rubbish at the back post. It's completely unacceptable. Our defense needs to be able to defend a lead. I'm not comfortable with attacking into the 90th minute when we're up a goal because we're so vulnerable on the counter.

We can easily take all 9 points from the next three games and have to considering how difficult December will be. All said, 4th after ten games is a great start for us. Our offense is firing on all cylinders and creating so many chances every game. Thankfully we have the talent to come back from a deficit. We just need to stop giving away the first goal and have a strong enough defense to hold onto a lead in the closing stages of a game.

How funny is it that, after the last few years, our offensive production is the last thing we complain about?

Phil Roberts 909 - spot on mate. Moyes is definately doing the magic.

Some EPL team is going to get fucking mugged very soon - probably Sunderland next weekend.

4th and buzzing - 29 shots at Fulham, something I've not seen for a while as the Cottagers nearly always give us a spanking.

A much simpler way of looking at it is to ask why he could slot into that team lst season and slot them in and he isn't doing the same at the moment? Answer - the team is set up differently and we are not playing to his strengths

We have brought quality in - Mirallas obviously - but it changes things. And unless Davey doesn't sort it out we are going to miss out on 15 - 20 goals.

At least at half-time he sorted out how to deal with a team with 11 men behind the ball. No more hit and hope into the area, work it in behind them. Pull them apart.

Should have been 5 0r 6. But that wasn't Jelavic's fault.

Still, fourth in the league tonight, and in a very good position to challenge still, and some favorable fixtures coming up were points really are there to be had, but still irritated by today, some two hours after the final whistle.

But that's kopites for you completely uninformed and be honest if motd and the papers are the basis of opinion then knowing which way is up is a challenge.

Whereas if you've watched the Moyes years and can think for yourself you know he has a penchant for defence.

Hopefully, as someone said above, we're going to smash somebody soon.

The frustration is like needle rash, it's excruciating, but how good is it to see us going at the oppo from both wings and straight down the middle. .We 're great to watch, let's enjoy..

Things were going great when Moyes had his attacking mindset. We were playing fantastic football and had completely twatted Fulham for 75 minutes. Only a superb free kick after teflon neville had conceded a foul in a dangerous area had given fulham anything at all.

Then as soon as we get in the lead, the attacking mindset that had worked so well goes out the window and the old moyes is back with a vengeance taking off the only striker and putting on another central defender.

Because of this change, it's not surprising that:

1) Fulham were able to throw the kitchen sink at us in such safety.
2) Coleman had no-one to pass to when he broke to the halfway line
3) We had no out-ball during fulham attacks.
4) We looked a bit clueless in defence with players probably uncertain of who was doing what.

We ended up hanging on meekly when we'd already shown we were by far the better team. We weren't playing Barcelona away, there was no need to surrender

This everton side is actually not very good at defending. Moyes has slowly replaced defenders with attack minded players who can play football. Both are fullbacks are poor defenders(but great wing-backs). We are a small side who is far better playing on the deck than trying to defend against a 6'5" hangeland and co with 10 players in our area.

Moyes needs to have a bit more backbone and more confidence in his players to keep doing what had worked so well. Passing up the initiative to other teams by having no striker on the pitch and all 11 behind the ball has never worked for us and never will.

And you think Baines isn't a good defender?!

Even the Fulham fans sitting next me where asking 'how did you not win that?' and I must admit it felt like a defeat for a while.

I, like many others on here, have spent the hour travel back thinking what might have been and counting on 6-8 other points we could have, specifically:
Today - should clearly have won it (+2)
Home to Newcastle - robbed by officials of 2 good goals (+2)
Away to QPR - robbed by officials of 1 great winger, with 11 men we'd have hoped to win this (+2)
Away to Wigan - stone cold penalty denied (+2)

Of course it's a stretch, but with a bit more luck and better refs we could be top of the table right now. As it is we stand 4th and despite my frustration that things aren't even better, I must admit to being totally elated and proud of the way we're playing right now, with considerable attacking verve and skill and without fear.
We totally dominated this game and were taking them apart on both flanks. If Jelavic was on the form of a few weeks back, we could have easily scored 5 today and not been flattered (in truth I think he was our poorest player on the day). Several Fulham fans went as far to say that we were the best side they'd seen, far better than City and this was at 2-1 down when they were smarting - I know the Cottagers are the most polite and welcoming around, but that's still a pretty amazing thing to hear from opposing fans.

Suffice to say, I'm disappointed, although not entirely surprised to hear the usual whingers banging on at Moyes - something which was certainly not echoed by the following faithful who chanted his name time and again.
A few pertinent points:

1. It's exactly Moyes who's acquired the players, picked the side and set the tactics that are producing free flowing football and besting pretty much everyone we come across. You can't slam him as hopeless for one without celebrating the other, it's nonsense.

2. Defensively we're obviously slighter weaker than we have been in previous seasons - that's what happens when you play essentially 7 attacking players and tell them to get forward, you really can't have everything! So with the deserved goals not going in, replacing 1 attacker (who was out of sorts anyway) with a further defender ahead of their final onslaught hardly seemed a crazy decision. You might not recall but last season we regularly played 4-5-1, so it's not like a surprise formation.

3. The earlier sub of Naismith for Mirallas was pretty much a case of fresh legs as far as I could see. The attacking didn't stop (arguably intensified) and Naismith set up several chances and had a few shots himself.

Ultimately we missed out through some lax finishing, some brilliant keeping and 2 defensive mistakes (Howard was suspect for the first and Coleman caught out for the second), but although the result was disappointing the performance wasn't much short of phenomenal and most fans spent the second half on their feet.

My ratings..
Howard: 6 (At fault for first, 1 good save but not much else to do)

Coleman: 8 (would've been 9 bar the lapse, he was solid defensively)
Jagielka: 9 (Great defensive performance with blocks and tackles whenever required plus the odd run up the park, less hoofing either)
Heitinga: 8 (Solid, good distribution and defensive play)
Baines: 9 (Phenomenal exchanges with Pienaar at times - like watching Brazil)
Mirallas: 8 (A little quiet early on, but came into his own when switched flanks, setting up goal)
Neville: 7 (Had a pretty good game and was involved in some smart distribution and defensively too. Needlessly clipped Berbatov for free kick though which cost at least a mark)
Felliani: 10 (Deserved a hat-trick, terrorised their defence and midfield winning most aerial battles and getting his foot in - was totally unplayable)
Pienaar: 8 (Excellent again in combination with Baines but could have delivered a little earlier or more clinically at times and put in a fee more shots)

Jelavic: 5 (Just not really at the races today, a few threatening moments but should have had at least 2 and touch looked suspect)

Naismith: 7 (Could maybe have scored, but looked solid and played a good attacking role when he came on)

Baines is an average defender I think. When you take into account his ability going forward however, he's absolutely superb.

Last time I saw a full back that was quality going forwards as well as defending, I think it was Paolo Maldini. Don't get many that can do both.

Today we had coleman and baines. I'm not comfortable with either of them if you said to me they'd have to defend for any length of time with no ability to go forward.

I've no idea why Moyes turns into a surrender-monkey during the latter stages of so many games. I don't recall any manager of note making a regular habit of withdrawing all of their strikers from the pitch. Its frustrating as hell because he's built a brilliant side which has the ability to play really good football, score goals and dominate games.....for god sake just let them do it.

'Then as soon as we get in the lead, the attacking mindset that had worked so well goes out the window and the old moyes is back with a vengeance taking off the only striker and putting on another central defender.'

That's just simply untrue. The sub was NOT made as soon as we took the lead, instaed we kept attacking right up until the 87 min when the sub was eventually made. We had numerous chances to make it 3-1. This was one of the most startling and significant differences in our play between this season and last. Jeez....

That's the difference between us and a Champions League team.

I can't help it but I blame Moyes for this. He's done us proud up till now but if you don't learn from history then you'll always make the same mistakes. David, back for a refresher course entitled "How to win a game when you're 2-1 up with 2 mins to go"

Enjoying the season so far and 4th is great but gutted today.

And I still think you're being harsh on Baines. He's getting games for England - expected to go forward but only from a position of defensive ability, surely. Is there any opponent who has given him the runaround in the last year or two?

Don't you think that it had an influence on our mindset and on fulhams ability to put us under pressure? Coleman probably could've run down the wing instead of through the centre, but its telling that he had no bugger to pass to, so its not surprising it came back at us.

If vic was injured, keep jelavic on for the last few minutes, or have someone line vellios around to bring into the squad. Even just leave naismith or pienaar up top.

If all you do is defend then all you can ever do is concede goals.

It may seem a bit harsh to criticise the manager given how the team played for nearly 80 minutes away from home - and indeed how we are playing this season - but it's not like his hand was forced. A large part of todays result was self inflicted and its sad to see him lose his backbone late in the game.

So far as I remember, after the goal, fellaini dropped back into a centre mid role, with naismith on the wing and jelavic up front on his own.

Obviously fellaini is also going to be back for corners and set pieces, so who did we have as an 'out ball' when coleman broke?

Now you're just making things up.

In fact and I know it's hindsight, but at 2-1 up why mend anything unbroken?

But, shutting up shop doesn't have to mean take off all strikers and play everyone behind the ball. Infact, I'd wager when most teams go into the latter parts of a game in the lead, they might change things a bit, add an extra centre mid or withdraw one striker, but I don't recall many managers make a habit of playing with no strikers.

We were better than fulham today by a mile. There was no need to panic and push everyone behind the ball, just the same as there was no need to panic after we'd conceded early on. We were playing really well, we'd lost a goal, but we were creating chances and the goals would come if we just kept the faith. I want moyes to have some faith for 90 minutes of a game, not 87.

No right or wrong here, Wayne, just different calls on the probabilities.

Coleman came in for a lot of stick today, most of it unjustified. I much prefer him at RB than either Neville or Hibbert.

There were also solid performances all over the pitch. Neville and Heitinga played poorly, but apart from that I though the rest of the lads did really well.

So no striker has ever played for 90 mins and scored in the 92nd? Just because he didn't score after 85 mins, Jeli could have stayed on and still contributed to any counter attacks. Well at least a bit more than Distin.

Following our defeat away to Newcastle last season we had:
Won 3 Drew 1 Lost 6 scoring 11 and conceding 15 compared to this season
Won 4 Drew 5 Lost 1 scoring 19 and conceding 13 .

Chelsea and Spurs were in joint 4th place having 19 points and trailing the leaders (Man C on28pts) by 9 pts. Whilst the teams in 2nd (Man U) and 3rd (Newcastle) had 23 and 22pts respectively.

This season the leaders have 4 points less than last year whilst positions 2 and 3 are the same this season as last.

Overall then it would seem that Everton are doing a great deal better than last season both defensively and in attack. But crucially turning some of those defeats from last season into wins this season has frustratingly eluded us

Funnily enough our only clean sheet in this period last season came against Blackburn away , whilst this season we have managed 2 (Utd and Swansea) whilst at the other end we failed to score in 4 games and have only failed to do so in 1 game this season (WBA)

So let's hope the boys can carry on the good football and be a bit more ruthless in the coming games. COYB

I'm more than happy to give the guy credit for all the good work he does, but I think he made a bad call today that cost us points.

We didnt sit back at 2-1 up but carried on attacking and looking for a third. bringing on a third centre back with minutes to go is standard practice as the opposition are bound to start knocking long balls forward.

Last season in the semi final we did sit back and I believe Moyes has learnt from this and the football we are playing this season shows this.

How can you say Coleman not having an out ball for the equaliser is the managers fault is a joke. The lad is a mistake waiting to happen every week as he is either the wrong side of his man or hesitates on the ball. He was at fault for the goal today, for one of the goals at Wigan and got away with the 'penalty'shout at QPR. I know he is a young lad but for me never a premiership player . Hope he proves me wrong but I doubt it.

On the people moaning about Pienaar being moved to the right for periods of games. Dont you think this might be to get the opposition guessing?? We all know that teams must look at Everton and think that if they stop the Baines/Pienaar combo then they stop the majority of our attacks. Hence a little switching is not always a bad thing during the course of a game.

Also, by all accounts you're not a fan of coleman. I suppose its colemans fault he was given a contract and gets picked at right back to make all these awful errors costing us points?

Its Coleman making the errors no one else. Unfortunately with Hibbert injured and Gibson out , Neville is having to play centre mid or he would be at right back.
Do you feel comfortable with Coleman at RB?

From your comments it seems you think Moyes isn't doing a very good job and if he wasnt manager we would be higher than forth.

Can't understand why Jelavic isn't firing. He was putting away easier chances without thinking last year.

Many of us said we were desperate for some decent football. Well we have it but of course we want to exercise our divine right as football fans to be ultra critical, hypocritical and bizarrely impatient as we expect miracles from the poorest club in the league. So here's my contribution.....what the hell are we doing EVER breaking up the Piennar/Baines partnership ? Even for just part of a game. Stop it now please. Give Jelavic a short rest on the bench, he will be back with no problem because he's a class act. Push Mirallis up top, get Hibbo and Dazza back and the three pointers will soon reappear. Life as a bluenose, we can't, we wouldn't want to, swop it, but bloody hell it's frustrating as it gets.

Did he fuck up YES but he is a real trier and id take that above a lot of players that have graced our doors through the years

and bye the way, the strikers and attacking midfield missed over 20 chances today including Naismith who seems to work hard but be utterly woeful when in front of goal.

For £50,000 Coleman is one of the best bargains this club as seen in years, don't maul him to death too much

Okay, we should've won but take nothing away from how well we played today. We're sitting in 4th place, yet some people still are not happy.

An away point vs a team with the 4th best home record in the Premier League is still a good result in my book. Roll on the Makems next week.

That switch by the way was key to Everton taking Fulham apart in the second half and Moyes deserves praise for having done it.

Sure, Seamus lost it in midfield, legged it back, little out of breath perhaps, and doesn't sense Sidwell behind him. But we were coasting, like Bolt looking round and smirking 10 meters out, fucking coasting, bossing every inch of the field, no threat at all at our end, looking like scoring every minute in theirs. Coasting...

So what does Moyes do? What does he do when absolutely nothing needs to be changed? What does he do when every wheel is turning with speed and not a piece is out of place. He makes a fucking change. Why? Fucking why?

There was no need at all to bring another defender on and every reason to keep pressing forwards: cliche (I love the odd cliche now and then and this is a gooden): 'the best form of defence is ... ' Mr Moyes?

If that change had not been made and the shape had been kept for — WTF — three minutes or so, we would have won that game without a shadow of a doubt. That, I feel, is a pretty strong nub of the argument.

Moyes changes things, players slip into new areas, look around them to see what is going on, and Bang! 30 secs, Mr Moyes, 30 secs, after you interfered with things, something happened that no-one, no-one, would have predicted would have happened before you made that change, Fulham levelled it.

It's pathetic how some on this thread want to turn such a perspective into some sort of Winter 2011 Moyes-bashing. Absolutely fucking pathetic. The reason we did not win today was the change Moyes made in the last fading minutes of the game when there was absolutely no reason at all to do it. End of.

If we're playing backs to the wall football as we did when distin came on, then I'll take a hibbert or neville over coleman, however.

And I do think that moyes is doing a good job, as I've said many times in this thread and elsewhere. That being the case, it doesn't mean I think he didn't make a mistake today, the same mistake he's made in the past which has cost us. Moyes is very, very close to moving us to the next level, but I don't believe he will do that while he has this fear resulting in him playing 11 men behind the ball.

Jamie, Fellaini, Naismith and Mirallas are only forwards if they're playing in that position. When Distin came on, mirallas had been withdrawn, naismith was playing wide right and fellaini as a centre mid.

My criticism of Moyes today is that having withdrawn Jelavic and brought on Distin, we were backs to the wall with 11 men behind the ball trying to see out the remaining few minutes. There should've been someone available as an out ball when the ball broke to coleman, but he had no-one. It was always coming back at us.

That sorted we can now drift into conspiracy land, he's out of sorts not trying coz he knows he's off in Jan.

Bjorn #902 accuses Pienaar and Miralles of deliberately not passing to him, maybe they know he's off as well (or they just could be greedy).

Hitz has had 6 weeks if he's still not good enough and fit enough to cover Neville in CM for 15mins or so while Neville drops back to fullback or something why are we even bothering with his wages

Onwards and upwards

I'd keep Coleman at right back and drop Neville and play Hitzelsperger or Barkley until Gibson is fit. Hibbert is as useless as Neville so I'd persevere with Coleman.

Naismith is not good enough and needs to be replaced. Far too ordinary.

If Jelavic was on form we would have won easily. He needs competition for his place but hasn't got any. For Howard to improve he also needs stronger competition.

I think a top 4 place is achievable because the premiership is quite average. The fourth place is between us, Arsenal and Spurs.

I thought we were exceptional today. Very unlucky at the end; I felt quite sorry for Coleman. He was my MotM in the first half and was only eclipsed by Felli's masterclass in the second. Says it all how good he was when Jol took off Riise cos he was getting pulled apart by Coleman. I really think he's growing into that right-back role. He just needs to tighten up a little defensively. But then we could say that about Baines. I'll take two full backs who are great going forward but a little suspect defensively over the opposite every day of the week.

And now this.... 3:45 in the morning, hangover and the kids to be awake at 6. At least I'm gonna feel great about the Blues. But, deep down, I suspect, in fact I KNOW, we are going to concede, especially when Naismith can't bury that easy chance. Like I knew against the Mags.

Lenin used to call it the politics of creeping inevitability. I call it no place to hide and nothing to smash.

Can't take much more of it.

We were always going to face the usual launches into the box in the final minutes and with Hangaland moving further up it only made sense to bring your tallest centre back on.

Coleman seems to be getting better with every game so I'd continue with him for the games against lower placed teams, although he could improve defensively. I'd still rather Hibbert or Neville play against the better teams.

Evertonians on very good song.

Coleman was at fault for the 2nd, but that aside I thought he was very, very good today, possibly our best player.

Neville can sure only be continually selected because of his ability as captain because the rest of his game is not great.

Jeli was not good today. He looked like an okay SPL player.

Would liked to have seen Oviedo on again instead of Naysmith.

Feli was awesome once he looked like he could be bothered.

We should have won by two or three.

How Did Everton Not Win This Game???

We've battered every team this season, with the exception of West Brom (and QPR with ten men), and only got four wins. This was our fourth 2-2 draw, and our third in four games. We can say what we like about the finishing; but ultimately, we've got to get back to our notoriously tight defense. Our first choice midfield: including Mirallas, Fellaini, Pienaar and Osman, is arguably the most effective attacking unit in the league; but we need to tighten up. The eternal question of course is when will Gibson be back.

Having said that, I'm determined to remain positive. We're playing great. We need to aim for at least 7 (preferably 9) points from our next three games, before our tough run in vs some top sides. If we can go into these games in good form, then I'm confident. My cousin who is a gunner is terrified by the prospect of Andre Santos up against Mirallas.

Going forward we're a match for anyone, but we just need to start keeping clean sheets. It's hard for anytime team to win a match when conceding two goals. Clearly that's where the problem lies, I'm just not sure how we could solve it. Jags seems to be in his best form since 2009, and whilst Coleman is costing us the odd goal, he's generally doing a decent job. Like I said, I feel the missing link is Gibson and his return will greatly improve defensive side.

Hmmm.... I'll have to think about that one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving watching our football but the lapses are frustrating and I can't feel too happy with 4th.

"Fulham snatch a draw from the jaws of victory"... ?!?

No, this doesn't sound right either. But perhaps you mean:

"Fulham snatch a draw from the jaws of defeat"...

But it does point up the subtle irony Lyndon is attempting... wooosh!

Not slating you at all, but there are only 3 teams capable of beating us this season. And they are the 3 teams above us in the league. That supposed difficult run, to me, isn't that difficult :D

It's time for bed I think.

Now I have been a VERY big critic of Moyes over the years but this year he has been a revelation. He has always managed to find great buys and manages to get the best of his players but he still has a tendency when the chips are down to revert to type and, shit his pants, go negative and put on defenders, he's done it time and time again. Now, if he addresses this negative trait, along with the other things he's addressed this year then he might actually win something for us. But if he is allowed to keep making these mistakes unquestioned then he won't continue improving. Do you really think we would be experiencing this wonderful style of football this season if everyone on ToffeeWeb over the last 10 years had consistently been saying that Moyes always makes the right decisions, we cant possibly improve and be happy with what we've got!!!!!

The man is improving, as he should, and we are here to hold him to account, tell him when we think he's doing well and also identify the things he can improve on, late negative defensive substitutions is something he can improve on, that's all.

In Moyes I am starting to trust again, but he still has a few lessons that he refuses to learn from, when he finally gets it we might even make the next step in ours and his evolution, and win something.

Just because we have no money to spend, doesn't mean that we should sit back and accept that mistakes will be made.

David Moyes has in most respects done a fantastic job at Everton, but there is always a nagging doubt about his belief in himself and his side.

If you accept that any team is a reflection of their manager then this doubting of either his own ability or that of his players, does show up in the teams inability to win enough games even when they are the dominant team.

In many ways he reminds me of Gordon Lee in that, when his team plays well, they are a joy to watch... but, when push comes to shove and the chips are down, can he manage to get them over the line?

Lee ultimately failed and paid the price; David Moyes, due to the financial situation, has been given far longer (10 years) to create a team and he has at long last got them playing good football and scoring goals.

It is oft reported that the successful teams win when they are playing badly, which is why it is a worry that we are failing to win even when we are the better team.

As Martin Jol said, if you don't take your chances, it doesn't matter how much of the ball you have had.

I'm sure all TWs want the same thing: a team to be proud of and a team which wins as often as possible. Some are supporters of Moyes in everything he does; some are prone to question the manager's decisions, but every one of us are Evertonians.

Question...is it not possible that Fulham, would have scored whatever we did? for some reason, numerous considerations of why we drew, ignore the fact that Fulham would have come at us...because they needed to. They were the home team, and they were losing.

We should have protected the lead...the players should have protected the lead. We should have won the match previously, but we should have had enough to keep Fulham at bay. I would have kept Mirallas on personally...but maybe his recent injury played a part.

But now the dust is settled...what is the result of this weekend? Every Everton fans wants fourth...and despite our draw (Against one of the best home records in the division in the calender year), we've gone above Spurs in fourth place. This time last year, most of us were looking into an abyss... we were completely lacking creativity, a striker, and hope..... Since then we've added Mirallas, Pienaar, Jelavic, Gibson and others, and we are playing some of the best football in the division. Let's get some perspective, and congratulate the manager, and the players.

Today was a big disappointment for everyone...but on the other side, we've put in one of the very best performances of the past year. We've come out of the Derby, like we have in the past, all guns blazing, and we've have a run of three matches which provide the realistic possibility of 7-9 points. I also think that, in Mirallas, we have pulled off yet another fantastic transfer coup. If we can add a couple of players in January, I think we can be realistically considered as top four contenders.

We got into the lead in the 72nd minute, with 18 minutes left to play and Distin came on in the 89th minute with 1 minute left to play.

Please explain your definition of "as soon as we get into the lead......."???

That bloke sat in row Z.

The result is that from a single corner United have 3, 4 or 5 attempts to score, once during each phase of play. We have been really poor at doing this over the years, in fact, we are awful at it! We actually invite these phases against when we are defending in these situations by bringing everyone back, not marking around the edge of the box and not having someone up front to try and hold the ball up or chase when we clear. When we have a corner, how many times do you see us legging back after the cross is cleared, with no one on the edge of the box and therefore the defending team breaking away freely? If you haven't noticed this happening hundreds of times over the last 10 years then it would explain why you don't know what a phase is.

Watch United on MOTD or whatever and see how they defend and attack corners and how many 'phases' of attacking play they manage to create from them. It's not a coincidence they talk about pressure being created, it's tactical and it's one of the reasons United score so many late goals and win so many games. Moyes hasn't learnt this tactic yet, and he won't unless others point it out to him.

PS please see post 61 for an idiots guide to tactics and pressure, hopefully you'll learn something.

Interesting stuff but had I talked to my Granddad about 'Phases' I reckon he would have made me sit on the kerb in the rain and not let me in until I'd sorted myself out.

Kev Johnson watch out, looks like you've got a challenger for the top job...... : )

Seriously though, watch what United do at corners and compare to us, you can then word what you see and give us your interpretation of it, merits or lack thereof. With or without the word 'phase' completely up to you to describe as you see fit.

At first glance bringing a defender on for an attacker in the last few mins 'seems' in theory to be the 'correct' thing to do... and it could be as well, if it works, in a simple 2 + 2 = 4, FM type world.

But in the real world, this being Everton, other factors kick-in: Murphy's Law, The Law of Unintended Consequences, that bloody butterfly that's forever flapping it's wings in Brazil or some place can even influence matters (or so we are told).

Removing the attacker can, as has been stated above, hand some initiative back to the opposition. It also changes the whole dynamic, which as a team would be doing the one for all – all for one, covering, chasing, playing for each other thing, the "He goes, I cover".

Once Jelly came off and Distin came on, this "He goes I cover thing" has to re-assert itself over the new set of people involved. This will take a minute or two to reboot; we didn't have a minute or two.

Yes, Coleman made a mistake in the middle of midfield; whether Jelly would have been an 'outball' is somewhat moot coz he was off... the midfield / forward dynamic had been disturbed. The ball went across to our left, then past how many before reaching the far post where Coleman had, I think, TWO to mark, Berbatov infront and Sidwell behind.

Distin had been added to the 2 + 2 = 4 making the answer 5: result indecision, and goal.

Moyes does pass the initiative over to the opposition with his negative subs, however, the quality of our defending has been poor this season with a huge number of individual errors. Howard, Distin, Heitinga, Neville, Coleman and baines have all had them. Gibson would rightly make a difference with quality and younger legs than Neville, however, sorry use of that word again, our defenders and keeper appear to be the weak link. We can't keep on conceding 2 goals a game and hope to win.

I like Coleman at right back, I had campaigned for it long enough, as it gives us great attacking threat on both sides. But, it's leaving us wide open at the back with baines bombing foward on the other side, and the quality of keeper, centre halves, defensive midfielder we have are good but not great.

For now get Gibson and hibbert back in the side. Less chances, more clean sheets. I don't think the current set up is a total write off, hell we're 4th for Christ sake, but, if you had an essien style defensive midfield beast and a centre half like lescott we are one hell of a side and could play that open style safer in the knowledge we're not going to be conceding 2 a match.

Disappointing, but things on the pitch are looking good. We are going to give someone an absolute battering when it clicks. Get on 5 for next week.

I'll close off that Fellaini drive would have been a great hat trick strike. It swerved into the keeper. If he had put it the other side, it would have been a hell of a goal putting to bed that he is just a big fella we lump it up to. The media din would be huge.... But that's another story.

It's about (again):

a) keeping the ball...
b) maintaining your shape

Football is a simple game for boys (that somehow seems to baffle simple people) made complicated by bullshit merchants, played by men for a King's Ransom.

You're right, though, I don't like to castigate players if they are giving their best and, because of Moyes, the Everton players usually do,some one soon is going to take a hammering from us.

I also don't take the view that we must beat the likes of Fulham because of tough games ahead against top sides. Wigan yesterday put a different light on our result against them. We can beat anyone but we simply need a stronger squad to maintain some consistency.

He's also most definitely an attacking full-back rather than a defensive one (in the mould of Glen Johnson) and as such offers a completely different option to Hibbert.

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily agree that he was our man of the match (Felliani was head and shoulders above everyone else in every respect yesterday), I would argue that Coleman was one of the top performers, constantly looking to get the ball and drive and ensuring that the Baines/Pienaar axis was mirrored with Mirallas on the right.

Yes he made a couple of mistakes for the goal, but he was by no means alone and when he lost the ball there was ample chances to break the attack before the ball got to Sidwell at the far post. Pillorying Seamus for this result and dropping him would be similar to the supposed move that Moyes is constantly criticised for RE: Barkley (a far less consistent and PL developed player).

Although I really like Hibbert and think he's without doubt one of, if not THE, best out and out defensive defender at the club, if you swap him for Coleman then you'll effectively swap a tighter back 4 for a weakened attack. Not that we shouldn't do that but it's not as obvious a move as others a making out.

The long and short of it is that we made more chances than anyone else in the league yesterday (and some clear cut ones at that) and if we'd been more incisive in front of goal (specifically labelling this at Jelavic, although others were profligate too) we'd have been 2 points better off today.

Read through this thread expecting to have people drooling about Felli. and (after the initial disappointment of losing the lead so late and undeservedly) praising - almost - everybody in sight.

But no!

Still some moaners who criticise the Moysiah/Pip/Shamus, even Bainsie and others.

This was our best performance of the season and we were the best side that the Fulham supporters had seen all season.

Three points would have been our just deserts and rightly so; but shit happens.

Final point, why has no-one mentioned the volley from Felli which drew a great save but should have produced his hat trick.

WHAT WONDERFUL TECHNIQUE!!!.

The best thing I've seen all season.

I was too gutted to even watch news highlights, let alone MoTD. It felt like a defeat but I take your point that shit happens. I'm just hoping Newcastle can rescue the weekend this afternoon.

More than anything I'm hoping that this last month has been our "blip" in the season and we can kick on from here. It feels like we should be on 20-21 points at this stage given the way we've been playing.

Anything to do with Phase or phasers then James T Kirk has got to be your man.

It's not the fucking 'Cottage'; it's not the fucking 'Bridge'; it's not the fucking 'Lane'. It's Craven Cottage; Stamford Bridge; White Hart Lane. That twat Colin Murray started this, and it gets on my nerves.

Just watching Goals on Sunday on Sky. Patrice Muamba is on... beautiful guy, no side at all to him. Luis Suarez - take note.

Up yours!!!

I'm sure there must be a fucking mental condition you are suffering from there!

Murray's one of the few decent media Reds around in my opinion.

I did actually think that two would be enough seeing as we were so firmly camped in their half and they barely seemed to be able to get an attack going once we went 2 - 1 up. While I don't really want to criticise the decision to bring Distin on, at that stage we really had no need to defend - the back line was having an easy time of it with the ball permanently in the Fulham half, so it's not quite the same as, say, being under the cosh from Barcelona in the last minute of the game, is it?

Of course, we shouldn't forget our generally poor first half display, which seemed to pick up from our last London trip a couple of weeks back at QPR. In the first half, I thought we were poor against an average side, and just like at Loftus Road conceded a soft early goal.

At that stage I genuinely felt a point would be OK, as it looked as if the next goal might well be theirs. From then on we huffed and puffed our way through to half time, with that thumping drive from Jags being the main point of interest – impressive, but you could try those all day and never score.

So, it was a bit of a strange one, and while I'm in total agreement that we should have won comfortably, it's a pity that it took until the equaliser for us to really wake up. It's almost as if we didn't really look like getting back in it until we were actually back in it.

And Fulham really are no great shakes – we should be routinely dispatching sides like that if we have serious ambitions, as opposed to simply another comfortable top 10 finish.

"Murray's one of the few decent media Reds around in my opinion"

So, you think:

(a) There is such a thing as a decent media Red; and
(b) Murray's one of them

Anyway, my 'mental condition' is hating all the Premier League and its media hangers-on stand for. Sorry.

Please Sir, may I continue to post.......?

Now, what part of the following statement, leads you to believe I advocated last year's tactics... in a post in which I declared how much better we were this season, than last:

Robbie...I love your thesis about how adding a defender increases one's chance of losing a goal... you should let managers know the world over, because they've been doing it wrong all this time...

Question: is it not possible that Fulham, would have scored whatever we did? For some reason, numerous considerations of why we drew ignore the fact that Fulham would have come at us... because they needed to. They were the home team, and they were losing.

We should have protected the lead... the players should have protected the lead. We should have won the match previously, but we should have had enough to keep Fulham at bay. I would have kept Mirallas on personally... but maybe his recent injury played a part.

Now, I think way you keep referring to Man Utd is fantastic… The same Man Utd team, who lost a lead in injury time this week, because they did not defend a lead. The same Man Utd team who Ferguson has referred to as losing the title because of the 4-4 draw with us… when they famously failed to defend their lead. And which manager won the title last season? Mancini… The same manager who consistently protected leads, by swapping attacking players for defensive players.

Just as yesterday, the brilliant Barcelona made a tactically defensive change, swapping Cesc for a centre-back, allowing Busquet to revert to a dm role, and taking control of the match. I could refer to Mourinho’s tactics… who consistently pulled off miracles with Porto and Inter etc etc. However, I agree with you partly on our flawed corner tactics, but I would advocate a better example of defensive corner tactics: Jose Mourinho’s.

Now managers across the world over swap attacking players for defensive in order to protect a lead. Why? Because it makes sense. Yesterday we drew: 1) Because we failed to take chances; 2) and because of an individual error from Coleman, who tried to find a pass and left us exposed.

You can blame the tactics, because we drew. In the same way that, later in the season, we will let a lead go, and people will come on here and criticise Moyes for leaving too many attacking players on, and not dropping back. But Fulham were going to come at us at the end of the match, without any doubt, because they were the home team, and were losing.

We lack defensive solidarity in the centre of midfield, and are playing in a fashion which allows chances for the opposition. It made tactical sense to strengthen the back line, and attempt to limit Fulham. It failed, not tactically, but because of an individual error which left us exposed.

We drew yesterday, because we continued to attack, because Coleman tried to find an intricate pass instead of clearing it, and because Pienaar ran up the pitch looking for a third, and left us exposed down our left hand side.

"..my...mental condition is hating all the Premier League..."

The why the hell would you want to participate in an Everton fans' forum? The last time Everton weren't in the Premier League, or its equivalent, was 58 years ago.

Speaking personally, I'd rather you didn't post. Like I said, up yours!!!

Wonderful!

Takes all kinds, I guess.

The supporters comments who went the game really say it all, great to read. We're fourth in the league, playing our best ever football. Poor Martin Jol won't be able to sit down all week.

If we continue playing the way we are, I honestly think we can still win the league! Seriously I do! I really hope in January we strengthen with a couple of class players, and don't sell Fellaini (not even for £50 million).

I can't believe anybody hasn't figured out by now that Evertonians do not all think like you do! Read any thread on here: people have a whole slew of opinions about almost any issue you care to raise, from one extreme, all the way across the spectrum to the other end (with the possible exception of Ratboy!). And games contain a thousand incidents, all of which can be viewed in different ways.

Yes, offer your opinion, but please don't overinflate your opinion with crap like this. Thanks!

You're doing it yourself with this "some views do seem off the wall" comment. All you are really saying is that YOU don't agree with those comments. But they are by default valid for those who made them. (Notwithstanding wind-up merchants.)

All I'm asking is that people recognize and accept the wide range of opinions held — and that's really all they are. You don't have to agree with the all the opinions posted — that would be humanly impossible. But to use this mechanism to over-inflate your own opinion is offensive. Read the posts; most people can deliver their opinions without stooping to this tactic.

I didn't go to the game but was just surprised you were having a pop at them. As I say, I didn't read their posts as over-inflating their own opinion just because they went to the game.

And I do feel some opinions are over the top. Tell me anybody on here (including those who don't say they've just got back from the game) who don't thinkl that!

And they say it. But that's one of the joys of TW.

Michael, not looking to pick a fight. I actually think TW is great, and well edited.

He's supposed to be a pro playing in the 'best league in the world'....these are basic sunday morning mistakesand he makes far too many of em...people are blaming the strikers but we were winning 2-1 at this point....If Coleman had done his job then the game was won...end of

Coleman....game...enthusiastic... yes....but simply just not good enough !!

The second was down to Coleman losing the ball in midfield. Should have wellied it. Baines and Pienaar didn't close down the cross quick enough. Distin should have cut it out. Heitinga jumped away from it like he did in the other box when he should have scored and Coleman was out muscled or formless at the back post.

Like I said though, I don't like to point the blame.

My point was that Howard should have put the free kick around the post. Then there would have been no rebound.

Jamie@ 176
I think Heitinga knew he was offside so left it as he was aware Fellaini was behind him, a very quick piece of thinking imo.

Twelve months on I'm like a kid again... I can't wait to see our next game! It's like a throwback to the HK1 era (similarly preceded by atrocious football). Out of the blue, albeit with a couple of really decent signings, we are playing fantastic proper football, creating chances and scoring goals; the side looks balanced, we are difficult to beat and the spirit of the team/club is there for all to see.

I think, however, fans look at fixtures and see Wigan and QPR as automatic 3 points. In all honesty I would have taken a point before yesterday's game, Fulham are a good side and we made them look ordinary.

This Saturday's game will be difficult; anyone who thinks we just have to turn up because of Sunderland's recent record at Goodison needs to be reminded that, as good as we are playing, we haven't won in four games.

I just wish we were not chasing games after 10 minutes — I think this will be properly resolved when Gibson comes back... Anyone know when he will be back?

Generalizations about what managers may or may not do in certain circumstances are fraught with danger because there will always be exceptions others can point to; I'm not talking about that either.

It's the general post that starts off along the lines of "there's some right shit posted on this thread" with no attempt at being specific, along with the ones who play the "you can't have watched / been at the game" card only because they disagree with the posted opinions.

I'm only at half-time but there were at least four separate occasions in the first half (including that shockingly poor header) when the ball has been delivered right to him and he has messed it up. And that's not because he was being closely marked either. Sadly, the Iceman is is freezing on contact, and I don't what can be done to rectify it.

When he first came into the team I thought he was at his best when not having time to think what he was going to do with the ball and he charged forward but as soon as he had time to think was caught in possession or he gave the ball away. Unfortunately at full back he gets a little more time on the ball when in possession, has time to think where he wants to pass it and then is caught in two minds. I think he is an instinctive player and not one who has tactical nous or acumen, hence never a full back.

But his movement seems odd from there on, running toward the ball and flicking his leg (rather than simply jumping) at the moment and place where the ball bounced.

I think he was trying flick the ball in the net, à la Welbeck or suchlike, and he completely missed it. That's certainly what Fellaini thought who watched in stunned amazement as all this unfolded in front of him, Heitinga's movement totally throwing him off from properly attacking the ball.

1. Lovely bit of close passing and steady build up play for their goal wasn't it?
2. Also good to see that lovely young man Suarez being given protection and Coloccini getting sent off for a terrible challenge! (It doesn't matter that he didn't make contact, it's definitely a much worse foul than Suarez on Distin in the derby so I applaud the refereeing consistency).

#irony

Incidentally it seems that Darren Gibson's standing improves with every game he misses. If he's still out by Christmas he'll be our own Messi.

Coleman is decent going forward. I would prefer him to try to be our best defender, rather than best attacker.

The next three games are now must wins, and even Arsenal at home has to be approached as very winnable. I'm happy with our total losses over the last few seasons as we truly are a hard team to beat, but it's the draws that kill us. We're already 4-5-1 - drawn half our games.

It's all good and well to say, "one of these teams is going to get a battering when we finish our chances," but it could go the other way and we lose an important game (they're all important, by the way) to one of the poor goals we seem to concede and missing all our chances in the same match.

To think of it, there's not many games were the goals we've conceded have been impressive, which is alarming that we seem to ship poor goals.

Time to start putting these teams away.

In fact, your defending of him is far better than his defending for that 2nd goal!

Await the inevitable dip in form from players...... although, I suppose we did mug them last season at their gaffe

We all know about paying our hard earned money which entitles us to hurl abuse at our team, whether that criticism is justified or not.

Do we want our young players to do well at Goodison Park and be confident and successful in our teams, yet I find many of our so-called fans can only slag the lads off because of their faults, ending up ruining their confidence.

It takes time, patience and so much hard work to get a special football team like ours producing entertaining football that is the envy of so many other clubs and spectators, win, lose or draw, in the Premier League.

The league we are in is so unforgiving and in any season we could be the ones being relegated. Give our lads as much encouragement as you can, try and smile through the pain when we lose because this year we have been privileged to witness the School of Science rising like a phoenix from the ashes of the past.

Sorry for the delay in replying, my mum said I had to take the day off yesterday.

Actually, my first match was Oldham v Everton in 1954, my dad took me because he thought, quite rightly it turns out, that it was Everton's last match in the old Second Division. So I don't need your patronising forgiveness. It can only be that I'm delusional.

Perhaps what you should have said in your post #125 was "...hating all that the Premier League has become..." then we'd have understood what you meant

Michael #156

As one of those who started my post "Having just got home..." I accept your authority in the matter, but not the validity of your argument. On a purely personal basis (and there will be many, many more like me, particularly those who live abroad) who no longer attend regularly. I haven't been to the Grand Old Lady for quite some time; but happen to have been fortunate enough to have been able to attend both the QPR and Fulham games, so I suppose I was boasting just a bit.

Just to prove that I'm consistent (even if, in your judgement, wrong) there was another thread recently where the question was asked "Do non-attenders have the same rights to an opinion as those who get to the game?" - or words to the effect.

My answer, as somebody who classes himself as one of the former, was, in words or substance, "Of course they have a right to an opinion; but it's validity must be more questionable, and as a non-attender, the value of their opinion might very well be less."

If Baines took that free kick we'd all be talking about what an expertly taken free kick it was. I just watched the replay and the thing had a ton of bend on it. From the start it looks like it's heading for the left corner and bends all the way to the right corner. It was a very good free kick that he did not let in the goal. The damn thing came off the post, you realize that right?