Blues battle to stalemate with Arsenal

Not sure Oviedo is designed to play on the right.. he kept drifting across..and Naismith is just gash.

Fair result.

Great to have Gibson back and we really missed his passing and positional sense. Pienaar played better than in previous weeks and Felli was excellent 1st half. Its clear to me that this is the best back four at the club. I'm a big JH fan but he hasn't played well all season and we looked a lot better with the Jags/Distin partnership.

Is it me or did we look totally knackered to a man after 80 mins???

This shite is getting harder to watch as we all know it should've been much much better. How often do we hear ourselves saying that under Moyes??

Tonight's draw was a point gained, there was more of a team ethic, even if Pienaar and Jelavic are still looking ring-rusty. Can't understand why Hitzlsperger comes on as he looks to me unfit so surely Barkley was worth a punt.

Draws against those around us might be okay, if we hadn't screwed up against those teams we should have beaten. On the bright side we're still only 4 points off 3rd place and another point ahead of relegation threatened RS.

I agree Ciaran. Oviedo can't play on the right. Maybe Moyes could have moved Pienaar but him and Baines were playing alright together.

Joe, you're obsessed with how much money Moyes is on.

I hope so anyway.

Oviedo looks good though, Pienaar in spells, Baines MotM, but still no clean sheets!!!!

Pienaar was better but still not at the level he needs to be at.
Naismith was terrible again.
Oviedo isn't a right winger.
I don't think anyone stood out that much but I thought Gibson looked good.

Naismith not good enough for the Prem unfortunately, too slow in thought and movement with the ball, gives away possession too easily also. Squad player and shouldn't start.

I thought Jelavic put the work in that he's been missing, even if he's still a bit out of touch. Gibson was a bit sluggish but showed us what we've missed from him.

Naismith wasn't awful. He's not going to be a classy player taking people on and threading passes through – but he's decent at defending and pops up in the box. Decent squad player. Gibbs and Walcott are a threat but aside from the first minute which wasn't really his doing you couldn't say they had a great influence. Hibbert did his job too.

While we weren't exactly brilliant, I couldn't really pick a poor performer tonight. Just a shame that we couldn't quite convert it into a win.

He might've looked good in the land of McRooney, but he's well out of his depth in the Premier League.

Gibson was a calming influence playing out of midfield, and we made the subs at the right times.

Reasonably happy with the performance, but both sides gave the ball away cheaply.

I do think Baines makes Pienaar look good when he lays the ball off on a plate for him though.

Fellaini — MotM by a mile.

Jelavic needs to liven up, he was caught on his heels a few times again tonight but I'm sure he'll come good.

Overall, fair result and we played well in parts, although I was on the edge of my seat everytime Arsenal attacked.

Yes, Fellaini was great, but in the last 15 he really faded in regards either energy or effort.

The game north of the border is played exactly the same way as down here, the only difference is the quality so he shouldn't need any time to bed in if he's good enough. At what point does using his past injury as an excuse become void? Its nearly December and he had a full pre-season, its not like it's only been a couple of weeks since he's been back in training.

I think it could go either way with him; either he will stay as he is and never really make the grade for us, or something will click and he will become a big asset.

One thing is sure, he is never going to be particularly successful as a winger. If Mirallas isn't an automatic choice when fit then something is badly wrong and maybe those recent stories about players falling-out were true.

I think that overall Jelly played reasonably well and worked hard.

Pienaar was better today... a couple of irritating passes, especially the last part of the match, but then it was the 93/94th minute, but in general he looked more like the Pienaar of last season.

Fellaini is such a threat, and it was a great finish for the goal but yet again, we have played well without winning. I really don't see us getting anything at City, especially as Silva has started playing again, so I don't think it is worth risking Mirallas if he is not 100% threat. I'd probably play the same team, with the exception of Coleman for Naismith.

Jelavic will come good... he is off form at the moment, but he is still getting into some good positions. Also really positive to see the return of Hibbert and Gibson. For all the complaining about Hibbert, we have seen his worth in his absence. He may be a bit limited going forward (although his crossing isn't bad), but he is very solid defensively.

But back to Naismith, I've just watched the extended highlights on Football First, and there were bad bits to his game (and some fucking awful bits) but he comes alive in the box, took up some decent positions and got on the end of a couple of things, so I'll reserve judgement.

As I said, he might be another Bily or he may become a decent player, his best position appears to be up front but I think everyone is too quick to criticise and as someone pointed out 3 goals from 5 starts isn't a bad return.

Naismith on a free as back up for Mirallas was a great steal. Not sure what people have against him as he looks to have the skill but not yet the speed of the Prem in his blood... if you find it in your blood.

And why no Barkley with ten to go? Really? Both sides were knackered and passing to each other at that point.

Mirallas will be back starting as soon as he's fit, at Naismith's expense.

Why is Oviedo playing on the right when Pienaar has a right foot??

No doubt HIbbert is an upgrade at RB, but my oh my is he terrible going forwards.. I really hope Coleman learns how to play defense because HE is the future and we need that lad to start learning from his mistakes. (Between Moyes, Stubbs and Weir, can no one teach this lad positioning - what is that 75 combined years in football for the trio??)

Howard had a rocket in his ass today finally.

Jelavic is SCREAMING for a rest. Can we we not bring on Vellios for 10 minutes at the end?? So damn frustrating.

The good news is we were the better team and they will be our main rival for fourth!

Head up. COYB

Sadly the service to Jelavic was piss poor again. He can't do much if the passes ain't finding him in the right areas. Pienaar was particularly guilty of choking in the box and going for rubbish shots instead of tee'ing Jelly up.

Given the injuries (Baines, Mirallas), I would play this team against Man City:

Howard
Hibbert, Jagielka, Distin, Oviedo
Coleman, Gibson, Osman, Fellaini, Pienaar
Jelavic

Subs: Naismith, Vellios, Barkley, Heitinga, Gueye, Mucha, ??

By the way, there seems to be a strange silence around Anichebe. Wonder if he has fallen out with the boss ?

Because the Baines-Pienaar combo is an established threat and without Mirallas the only real source of creativity feeding off and to Fellaini and hopefully Jelavic one day soon.

I wouldn't dick around with it too much (à la Norwich) especially when playing well, like last night.

And Anichebe was listed as injured for the Norwich City match.

Arsenal are a long ball team
Everton are their equals and can finish above them on that evidence
Arteta is finished - 70k a week off the bill and £10m fee looks a wise move
Fellaini is so far ahead of him - embarrassing him at one of the game
We look a more solid side with Gibson
We look a more solid side without Heitinga
Tony was solid
Pienaar looked better
Osman played very well in the engine room
We still missed Mirallas's quality on the right
Naismith is a goal poaching sub, not a starter
Oviedo can and should only play on the left
Get off jelavics case, we ain't got any better. The criticism of him against a decent back four last night pissed me off
Missed the goal, but Howard played well for the other 89 mins

Overall not a terrible result in isolation but all these draws are really strangling us into submission in terms of conceding 4th spot. Really, really frustrating considering that I don't remember one game apart from maybe West Brom and possibly Sunderland at home which we haven't deserved to win on the balance of chances.

Lets hope that we see our traditional second half of the season improvement as the good news is that the top 4 are still in sight so long as we can find a way to turn our dominance into points more consistently.

He's not a winger who will take people on and deliver crosses, he's a winger who tries to get on the end of things, maybe more of an inside forward, who you want on the back post when Baines delivers.

And how can you say its a bad buy? We got him for FREE... if we sell him we'll get a profit, so I don't see a problem with him.

Alleluia!

Hibbert is the as good a defender as there is in the league..and some of his crosses last night were superb too..

What people have against him is that he doesn't appear to have any skill whatsoever. Can't dribble, can't pass, can't cross...

His only redeeming feature is that he appears to find good positions in the box... but even then he fluffs most of the chances he gets.

Simply not good enough.

Naismith works extremely hard and is a capable if not inspiring footballer who is recovering from a really nasty injury and adapting to a new league. Obviously Mirallas is first choice but in his absence and with Coleman injured and Ossie needed in the middle who else plays there? Please don't say Barkley because he doesn't.

Another night of bad choices and dodgy refereeing. Pienaar has an Osman strengthed shot instead of pulling it back, Fellainin did a Naismith and crossed it instead of playing it on the deck and the ref... Fuck me — when are we going to get a pen? And where in the ref book does it say that an advantage is when our forward has been unceremoniously dumped in the centre circle and therefore has absolutely no chance to be in the box... if we somehow manage to get a cross in? Give us the free kick!

Naismith made some woeful errors but all is forgiven in my book if he keeps popping up in the box in good positions. I think he is a goal poacher being played out of position. Stick him next to Jelly in a 4-4-2 against weaker sides at home and you might find him show his worth. As a right sided midfielder, he makes too many errors and can't tackle.

Oviedo is an impressive player. He defended bravely when he came on and although did not attack down the right, tried to cause havoc when in advanced positions. Give him a start on the right and let him rotate with Pienaar. It is easier to defend if all threats are coming down one flank. Next game however he might need to fill in at left back

My team vs City, assuming Baines passed fit:
Howard
Hibbo Jags Distin Baines
Oviedo Osman Gibson Pienaar
Felli Jelli.

The obvious solution is to play Pienaar on the right and Oviedo on the left. Before anyone starts... Pienaar has had some cracking games on the right (especially switching with Donovan) — and he had a very good first half there on Saturday.

The other obvious opposition to this, is the breaking up of the Baines/Pienaar combo. There is absolutely no reason why Oveido/Baines cannot forge a similar partnership — in fact, Saturday's performance indicated that they are more than capable of playing very effectively down the left.

Moving Oviedo to the right didn't really work — therefore, for me, the path of least resistance is to put Pienaar over there and play Oviedo where he belongs.

Moving forward it may be that Oviedo is needas t left back for the next few games anyway, after which time Mirallas will hopefully be back.

I feel we should've won and I am disappointed with Jelavic, there is something missing, but he still gives more than Vic or the Greek chap.

We need Mirallas back for Man City and we need Pienaar back to his best.

We're in a great position, let's just enjoy rather than over-thinking, hindsight is a wonderful thing but let's not use it on here. Gutted that Baines might be out for the Man City game.

We've lots to be positive about!

Losing points at home
Letting in a goal inside a minute
Strikers not being on form
Players getting injured
Being unable to beat inferior opposition
Not getting correct decisions from referees
The team slipping relentlessly down the table
These things are not positives — they're all bad things... and all worthy of comment.

Someone coming on this website to condemn post-match analysis under the ridiculous title of 'hindsight' — that's definitely a really bad thing!

I believe it was from the throw-in that they then scampered forward unhindered while the much vaunted Everton defence watched in awe as they took the lead... And all this inside a minute! Talk about frustrating...

Is it time for our squad to descend to Chelski depths and start surrounding the refs, so they at least dread not giving us the calls?

This time last year we were awful, no confidence, close to the bottom, no belief, no shots, no goals and we're total shite...

But this season,
Are we playing well? Yes!
Are we giving our all? Mostly.
Is the team worthy of our support? Absolutely!!!!!!
Is there room for improvement? Too bloody right!

The power of hindsight is forever being used on the site, and as for the personal bashing on players on here sometimes, I won't even comment. I'm all for constructive criticism, Christ we pay them enough.

I've thought we've deserved to win every game (except West Brom). But look above us, all the teams are getting similar results, this is the most open the Prem has been since it started and we're in with a real chance of gate-crashing the party. No game is a guaranteed victory. I'm sure Man Utd and Arsenal was thinking it was 3 points in the bag before the whistle even started.

The refs' decisions are something all us ToffeeWebbers can agree on; quite frankly the standard of refs has been incredibly low this season, a couple of correct decisions and we'd all be feeling a lot better about everything.

Personally I believe our problem is our own negativity, we lack self belief. If you believe in the power of positive thinking then anything is possible. And this season anything is possible if for once we put aside our issues and everyone focuses on one thing. It's good to be a blue today.

I'm looking forward to City with anticipation.

What we need is quite simple, investment from the board in Jan to strength up! Oh and Moyes to sign another contract. Were's Mr Mason to back me up...

You wouldn't think there were two teams competing in any one game of football with that list of absolutes Michael.

You must always win at home, you must never get injured, you must always be on form, never allow a first minute goal to go in!

Shit happens, even for Utd with Norwich for example. Nothing on that list is something Moyes can sit his players down and tell them not to do.

4 points from 3rd. Despite the negatives that happen when 22 men ping a pigs bladder round some grass for 90 minutes, we're doing well.

Here, try these for size:

• Not losing points at home
• Not letting in a goal inside a minute
• Strikers being on form
• Beating inferior opposition
• Staying in the top 3

That's where we should really be; instead, we have Moyes playing for a draw after praising his opposition, as ever, and talking them up. No doubt we'll have to hear the same bullshit from him this weekend for the Mancini/Man City lovefest. At least we won't hear that 'knife to a gunfight' shite that he abrogated with last season, but I won't be surprised to see some other form of inferiority rise to the surface.

Shit keeps happening to us... that's where we end up not winning anything. Some fans seem happy with that, happy to rationalise it away as 'absolutism'. Others... not so much.

I'm not entirely convinced by this.

It appears people will not be happy until a swathe of incorrect decisions go our way — even though we've had some obvious ones in our favour this season...

Referees are an easy target.

Yes, Arteta's challenge was a penalty — but I'm not sure the ref or his linesmen were in an appropriate place to make that call.

But please just knock this 'hindsight' crap on the head will ya? The only valid things we can talk about with any meaning on here are things that actually happened... only we all see things differently because of our different make-ups, and that's what *should* make it interesting.

Clearly, a lot of people like to consign what has happened to "The Past" and I can understand that from the perspective that it cannot be changed... But some of us believe it to be useful to analyze the immediate past (ie, the last game) in the interests of considering what may lie ahead... whereas others only want to look forward 'positively' to what (they think) is going to happen in the future.

Here's what I see to be the problem with that kind of 'foresight' — predicting results and future outcomes of sporting events is a complete waste of time and effort. The only ones who benefit from that are the bookies.

Hindsight is a good thing; let's not loose sight of that by badmouthing it, please.

Would you not agree if we beat Newcastle and Arsenal as we could have? Then we'd be happy as I'd be over the moon if we had another 4 points.

Refs are professional and must do their jobs they best they can, I understand how fast and difficult it can be but, as you pointed out, there's not just one ref. I don't think there's any conspiracy — just poor application and decision-making. I'm confident if it was Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd or Arsenal at home, they would have been awarded.

And yes, it would make me very happy if even a couple of decisions went our way. A swathe would just be greedy but I'll keep my fingers crossed. Sunderland we got one, may a lot more follow.

Out of interest, is there any stats peeps with the answer to this; how many pens have been awarded to the top 4 last season?

I'm moving to agree with Neil Higginbotham (#882) — we need a little more ref bashing by the players; I hate to see it but it does work. Put them on the spot more and make them earn their money.

Football is about influencing a myriad of variables open to the butterfly effect from kick-off. Hopefully you can swing the probability of winning your way but you can't do any of the above as choice.

Would love to see Pld 38 W38 F100 A 0 PTS 114, but no one has ever done it.

I was happy with the incorrect decision against the shite though.

I don't agree with this 'Moyes playing for a draw' either Michael. In the last 15 minutes we had three shots with Szczesny twice having to make a save and Jelavic put a fantastic ball across the Arsenal box that Fellaini might have got on the end of.

• Not letting in a goal inside a minute. I think it's Moyes's job to have his team set up and psyched up from the get-go to counter that sort of thing. That it came as a result of a dreadful hoofball as our first contribution to the game was all the more galling — and preventable. Again, if it doesn't happen, the manager gets all the credit, and I believe it is something he can do something about. You might not agree; that's fine.

• One striker of note, hasn't stopped us scoring? — You may not have noticed this... but (see Bullet 2 above) we keep letting in poor goals... which means we need to score more... and because we don't score enough, we end up drawing instead of winning. The manager likes to sit one one-goal leads and is happy if we pull back to earn a draw. In my book, that's not enough. In yours, it obviously is.

• "We beat Utd" — 14 games in and your citing the first game of the season as a counterpoint to defend the increasingly poor results against inferior opposition in 7 of the last 8 games? Very odd thinking....

• Are not others competing? Of course they are (What a stupid question!) — but do their managers spend all their time talking up the opposition, praising their 'fellow' managers, all the while undermining confidence in their own players, failing to make proper use of the resources they have, and talking down prospects of their own team?

Won't be this weekend as your laws of football dictate we must lose, so I'll head down the Walkabout for England v All Blacks. Another game lost.

I'm saying they're things the manager is paid to influence, and would be given full credit for, if successful. Four points off European Champions means absolutely nothing: it's where WE finish at the end of the season — that's all about accumulating more points than the opposition in the competition... Again, something the manager is paid to influence.

My 'laws of football', as you call them, do not dictate that we lose to Man City — far from it. We have shown this season that, with modest players, we can beat anyone. That's what I've always believed... but Moyes kinda wavers... We'll see who turns up this weekend. I'm hoping it's the wannabe winner but I have my doubts. After all, we have the ready-made excuse that the players are 'tired'...

If we can beat Man City, then we beat a better team, in the same way Reading beat us.

You seem convinced I'm happy with things, but like most fans I'm frustrated at the lost opportunities. But we're not overachieving right now, we're underachieving in 5th. That's where Moyes has the team and he'll raise the team's game.

You can blame Moyes for dropped points, and I'll blame him for sitting 5th.

I'd also blame the officials. There's never been a season like it. Its a Clattenburg derby almost each and every game.

We're SIXTH!!!

No wonder your protestations appear to be so questionable!!!

At the end of the day, in 14 games, we've played Man Utd first, Arsenal last, with a 12 game run that would have had any decent side licking their lips.

Hindsight? Stop. We're (Moyes is) so predictable it is no longer only hindsight. We know what he's going to do before he does.

On the game, Osman was dreadful. Pienaar was good except he seems to stop for a couple of seconds when he gets the ball when running would create space. Oviedo will come in for Baines nicely on Saturday.

I also liked how he waved an imaginary card at the ref after Vermaelen's foul which should have been a card. Some will say that's poor, but we need more of it if we want more out of the refs. They all seem to cave to pressure these days and we give them none.

Hibbert - absence (and only absence) makes the heart grow fonder. We may have missed him, but after five minutes I had forgotten why.

Naismith needs his own paragraph: As a right winger, this guy is terrible. However, wasn't he brought in on Jelavic's recommendation that they play well together? Play them together in the box and I'm sure they'll both improve. Then we can get rid of Osman and play Gibson, Pienaar, Mirallas and Fellaini in a diamond and watch us shoot up the table.

Alternatively, if people are convinced Naismith will be in the side for his defensive work, play him and right back and be done with it. He can't go any worse than Hibbo or Coleman. Or could he?

Hindsight? Stop. We're (Roman is) so predictable it is no longer only hindsight. We know what he's going to say before he does.

Of course Nick is right. With players coming back to fitness, and rivals consistently screwing up, Everton can still achieve what they want to. This season is wide open.

That side last night looked pretty solid to me. Throw in Mirallas and we have the guile to break down even the best of sides (missed him last night on the right I felt).

The transfer window will be interesting. Donovan on loan last night would have made a difference. I am convinced Heitinga is out, with Forren in, which could free up a little bit of cash (plus dump Victor) to bring an injury free striker to impact off the bench.

However, literally all the stars would have to align for the above to happen – keep on dreaming guys... I guess there's no harm in that, as long as it doesn't start getting delusional. A point at home to Arsenal is a disappointment as we should be looking to get 3 at home to any team, its not bad at the end of the day but not great either. Away games to the bigger sides is a different matter.

Some seriously tough games coming up in December, we will not be getting many 3 pointers in the next month... by January we'll probably be around 8th, where we probably belong given our wage bill.

We had a relatively easy start to the season taking the first dozen games into account, now reality will start to set in and those dropped points against the likes of Fulham, Reading and Norwich will come home to roost. Sorry if this is too down for some, just being realistic, don't expect too much and you're Xmas will be better... and all that.

I was proud of the display and I know you were. Some of the tackles, play and energy given. The 10 outfield players by the 92 minute you could see were burned out. No one slacked. We've even seen a return in attitude from Howard, after the near miss he really stepped up, you could see it on his face. (Finally, we have our No 1 back.)

Regardless of the result of any game, if they've worked together, given it their all, I'm happy — cant ask for more. Our worst patch has resulted in us still being unbeaten at home, playing great football for a change and in a very strong position; teams now fear us.

I just hope Moyes keeps to form of being a January miracle worker; if we can match last season's second half, we're in Europe. (Staying and competing will need to be seen, but that's for future discussions to come, something we're all looking forward to...)

And with regards to hindsight, yes used correctly it can be a excellent tool, I wish Moyes was a master, maybe he could sort it out. However, some comments seem only to serve an attempt to disenfranchise our unwavering support, we need to be one and together in our stance, and then maybe the negativity will lessen. I will promise to do my best, majority of comments on here are really well written and excellent to read, my comments are not addressed to the sensible. (Many an hour when I should be working, I'm glued to ToffeeWeb.)

We need to highlight the excellence; yes, it's not all gone our way but still lots to come! Is West Brom really going to continue at that level of performance? I just can't see it, their squad is as fragile as ours.

Blue moon my arse! The game can't come quick enough. Really hope we see Hibbo in action at his best, his display in the victories of past was stuff of legends.

Jamie, I see what you did there, but it was a bit of a miss. If you'd paid attention you would have seen me praising both Osman and Hibbert at points this year, but I'm done. They're both also-rans that wouldn't get a job from any other prem manager.

He is my most favourite player over the last 15 years, El Matador. Last night his star dimmed for me, sorry.

I sort of agree with re: Arteta, although I don't think he can be judged on his games at Goodison in an Arsenal jersey as this would be a very tough place for him to come to play. He seems to please most Arsenal supporters I know.

I also agree that DM has to start giving our players some much needed confidence and stop talking up the opposition. He has to inject self-belief into the players starting at the Etihad on Saturday.

Just what has happened to Anichebe? I know he's not the greatest but it would be handy to have him on the bench.

And just read this on forum from a Arsenal fan I quote: "Fair play to Everton yesterday. I thought Pienaar and Baines butchered Sagna who did not get the help he needed while Fellaini was a beast in the middle who looked unmarkable at times."

Times are changing.

Now, much on here is opinion but that really is not fact! Only one decent pass?! Words fail me! And did you count the number of headers he won (unusual for Ossie, I'll admit)!

Arteta...
Posted by: gunnersingh (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2012 14:46

Why has he escaped criticism these past few weeks?... He hasn't shown any leadership, in fact he's gone AWOL.

The way Anderson breezed past him was embarrassing. At times it looked like he was running backwoods.

I know people will bring up some stats but the reality is he needs replacing, because his legs have gone.

Posted by: SA-Gunner (IP Logged)
Date: 28 November, 2012 21:52

Szczesny - 8
Kos - n/a
Vermaelen - 8
Mertesacker - 7
Sagna - 5
Arteta - 3
Wilshere - 7
Cazorla - 4
Ramsey - 4
Walcott - 6
Giroud - 4

Gibbs - 7
Gervinho ,,,,, 0

Most of the players are starting to look tired. I don't know what has Arteta done well to conserve his place. Would start Coquelin ahead of him.

Ian, fair enough. I'm not one to trawl other club sights as I'm just not that dedicated, but as I said, the few Gooners I'm mates with (literally about 3) are happy he's there. With those posts though it is good to know that Arsenal supporters' spelling is as bad, if not worse, than some on here.

I don't lurk on other sites, but I wanted to know if I was way off beam.

Maybe I'll go support the Redshite like most of my mates here in Australia do.

Would you care to explain that comment?

I wanted to vote for Phil Neville, but that ain't allowed either!!!

You're on weak ground if you are going to slag off Gooners' spelling when you talk of 'sights' and not 'sites'....

Just sayin'...

Some outlets had Osman as MotM so it was a fair question...

And not the first time Mr Smitham has produced this crap argument in a pathetic attempt to derail an argument he doesn't agree with.

Whether you see a misplaced pass from your sofa or the corner flag in the park end is irrelevant. It's still a misplaced pass.

Ian Smitham's fatuous implication is the footballing analysis equivalent of Godwin's Law. An idiot's charter.

Blues live all over the world and all deserve respect for putting so much time, effort, love and money into the club when sadly you get little back.

If I meet a Blue in the street, on holiday or even at work, I always make time for a chat and my first question isn't "So then... where to do sit at Goodison???"

We are born, not manufactured so EVERYONE stop this pathetic one upmanship on any thread.

Is a live game perspective the same as those who watch it on the telly, again no. It was a decent question to ask, I don't think it was a bitchy question, rather one seeking to understand the comment about Osman who played pretty well.

I was lucky enough to get home from work Friday afternoon and Fox was replaying our game. On second viewing I'm convinced that:
- Pienaar was good but was trying to do too much;
- Him and Baines need to stay together, and if that means only giving Oviedo a few minutes or playing him right or forward, so be it;
- Hibbert can defend but that's all.
- Osman tries his ring out and is 100% committed (which I admire) but just doesn't quite have the ability.
- Moyes need to sit down and let the players play. There was a Baines throw in right in front of the bloke, and he was basically whispering in his ear where to throw it. Made him look even more like Gollum.

As for "derailing a argument" again I do not put one up, and I did extend Roman the courtesy of good manners, albeit, for the sake of clarity, yes, I do not agree with his view, I trust that on reflection you might consider that your final comments are implying that I am an idiot, something that I really would not like and that I would hope that you would reconsider.

Mr Ian Bennett, I agree with your contribution.

At a live match you get a full 180 degree view, appreciating the work some players put in to track or make runs, that may or may not have been seen. The camera edit can be 10 yards square. One of the most important roles on the pitch is the defensive midfielder. Every successful team has one, and we fall apart without our Irish gem. The game going fan loves him, the guy watching on tv perhaps not so much. So is the question of whether you go the match relevant - maybe.

While the matchday focus is rightly on Goodison Park or the home of the opposition, some practicalities and realities should be borne in mind before we start in with the one-upmanship.

Firstly the away games: typically 2,000 or 3,000 Evertonians in attendance (maybe 5,000 at Wigan!)

Then home games: 30,000 to 35,000 Evertonians in attendance.

Mostly, those groups will include (a) Evertonians living locally; (b) Evertonians from other parts of the UK; (c) Evertonians from Ireland; (d) Evertonians from the rest of Europe/The World.

All are to be commended for their dedication and commitment. However, those thinking this 'service' to the cause sets them apart from and on a higher plane than those not attending seems unnecessarily divisive in my view. Yes, they are 'supporting' the club financially with their contributions... although as each year passes, the importance of this as a portion of the club's revenues diminishes.

The other reality is TV.

I don't how many people in the UK remain blissfully unaware of the TV coverage the Premier League receives overseas, in a mind-bogglingly vast array of diverse markets right across the entire world. And we're not just talking an MotD-style highlights review show...

In many markets, every single Premier League game is available, either live or as a delayed broadcast, as if live... complete and uncut, the full 90+ minutes. The result is that a huge number of disenfranchised Evertonians overseas can watch each and (almost) every Everton game in it's entirety. And the coverage (although perhaps less so the commentary) is generally superb. With that case of the Portsmouth landlady last year, and the profusion of online services (some admittedly of the poorest visual quality), presumably the ignorance is being irradiated.

Yes, watching TV coverage is not the same as being at the game... but is one intrinsically better that the other? I would argue that you see more of the 'ball-game' on TV but less of the off-the-ball tactics/antics, but I think they represent different complimentary experiences, neither of which should be used as a battering ram to validate one's views on the game itself.

When we set this website up, it was to provide a focal point for the worldwide Everton community — that includes ALL of the subgroups listed above. So please, let's accept that as a group we Evertonians using this website embrace both matchgoers and TV-watchers... with individuals switching between those groups as their circumstances allow or dictate. Neither better nor worse... just different.

We provide for both groups, with the Live Matchday Forum (although not many are typically at the game itself), unique match reports from attendees (thank you each time in spades, Paul and Ken for your labours!), and match summaries put up as the game finishes to provide a discussion focus for the online community to engage in post-match analysis. Bottom line is we don't all see things the same way: but the stupidest comment I see on here is the patently ridiculous "Where you even at the same game?" Let's try not to do that anymore, please.

I love Everton, Wales Rugby Union and the BritishLions in that order. I've seen the latter about 5 times in total, but a lifetime on the goggle box. So I would certainly not think less of a fellow fan who can't go the match – hell, I am one.

Explain that to me please?

Mr Smitham has form for dismissing peoples opinion because they weren't at the game. Pity he doesn't have the balls to even admit that's what his question meant.

Both views have their adavantages and disadvantages.

So, is there a difference between my opinion of that game and that of the glorious supporter who spent his time and money going to the game? Mr McGlone, please let me know your thoughts, and MK I apologise for raising this, especially after your well thought out reasoning, but if CMc wants to impose his thoughts on me then I will resist him, after all it is all about opinions on here. Thanks.

Of course there's a difference between someone whose opinion is based on 30 seconds of MotD2 and someone who's seen the entire game.

But that's not really the point being made, is it?