Beating the ball against a brick wall

Yes, we lack a little bit of extra quality in the box, but in general we continued to play patiently and do the right things, didn't resort to hoofing the ball into the box, and dominated the game. Swansea are excellent at this kind of thing; it's exactly how they played at Chelsea in midweek (except they were more incisive on the break).

Gutted not to win at home obviously but certainly not disgraceful that we never won. Also thank fuck we kept a clean sheet for once.

I'm not advocating hoofball as our main strategy – I remember those days – but with five minutes to go, with a few talls on the field, put it in there.

This is another game we should have won, to add to an ever growing list of disappointments.

Weirdly enough, we now have the joint fifth best defence in the division, after West Ham lost by 3. We've only conceded 2 less than Stoke now...

We need investment, as we all know. We must be able to change a gameplan which isn't working... I suppose, like Swansea, that we have a great core, but no gamechangers on the bench. That may well be the difference between fourth and sixth, when the season is over.

Does he rest (drop) Jelavic.and give Vellios and Anichebe a run out for a couple of games? If so, what impact would that have on Jelavic's already fragile confidence?

Does he persist and hope that Jelavic plays himself back in to form, which I think we've all been waiting for this season?

I thought Naismith was a bizarre substitution for Neville – a journeyman for a journeyman, at least Hitzlsperger can see a pass and has a shot about him.

Who'd be a Premier League manager?

Fair play to Swansea, they nullified Baines and Pienaar and we ran out of ideas late on.

Not too disappointed as we dominated large parts of the game... just couldn't work their keeper and get that crucial goal.

Neville at CM was a bad mistake today, he was a passenger and contributed nothing whatsoever. When a team comes to Goodison and just sits in, his deficiencies are painfully exposed. He gave the ball away needlessly a ridiculous amount of times in the first half and when he does find a man, it's a three-yard sideways pass, he constantly puts other players under pressure by giving them the ball in tight situations mainly because he panics and wants rid of the ball as soon as. His movement is also poor; he passes it and then just stands there thinking his job is done. If Ross Barkley had played like Neville in the first half, I shudder to think what Moyes would have said to him at half time! I honestly think Neville needs to take a good long look at himself and ask what he is contributing enough to be in the first team... Rant over.

Separately, I feared when I saw the team news that Plan A would be to hit the big hoof up to Fella, Jelly and Vic and if that didn't work then Plan B would be to hit the even bigger hoof up to Vic, Fella and Jelly... and so it proved to be.

We need Kevin Mirallas back big time; we're too reliant on Baines & Pienaar for guile and craft – if the other team stops them... well, then we end up like we did today. When is he back?

We were totally dominant today and should have won. Fellaini put their midfield completely out of action. Hugely disappointing.

We had enough chances and half chances to win fairly comfortably and not taking them is what has us in 5th (soon to be 6th) rather than 3rd or 4th. Very, very frustrating but fair play to Swansea who did defend very well. A minor plus point... our first clean sheet in about 12 games?

Anichebe, his pace and dribbling ability is terrible! Having said that, he is getting better with his finishing. Not good enough to unlock difficult defenses though.

I think it would have been useful to try the Hammer as we were painfully short of long distance efforts.

We have dropped too many points this season to inferior opponents to say this anymore... Again, I don't know what these fools do during the week but the competence in the final 1/3 is shocking. Osmans open header at the end of the first half was scary bad - as in, "this man gets paid to play this game??" Jags' miss was shocking and embarrassing (again)... the flow of the team in the middle of the park is great and really uplifting. But the final third is where you make your hay and you either get left in the middle of the table or you bury your chances and come in with a chance at glory at the end

After this result, Liverpool and us match the same results as last year and we finish 7th on Goal Diff.

Forget the Champions' League.

If we really want to do anything meaningful this season, it is exactly games like this that we MUST win. The shocking performance of Neville has been highlighted with painful accuracy by Fraser Auld, and the substitutions by Moyes if anything reduced rather than increased the pressure being applied on their goal.

Yes, 16 shots, 8 on target, one of those days perhaps... but there have been far too many of 'those days' this season for it not to have at least an element of a systemic problem, and the limited inventiveness of our basic attacking moves is what I would question.

Ha ha love it!

He's does invariably stink mind : )

I know Coleman is limited but to me Moyes is doing something that he rarely does by giving youth a repeated chance to succeed despite some troubles... And I think we can all see he's not a world beater but by sticking with him, that might just give the lad the confidence to continue to improve his craft and become a valuable asset for us.

When was the last time we battered a Premier League side either home or away? I can't remember the last time we smashed an inferior side at Goodison.

It's ten plus years of Moyes now and we are doing and playing exactly the same way. Nothing new to learn from DM, I'm afraid to say. Players don't flourish unless they can graft their balls off for 90 minutes.

What's with the 7 mins for Vellios again? I'm sorry to say it's all gone way too stale and every game is just a carbon copy of the last. Sometimes we nick it; some times we don't.

What ever happened to smashing fuck out of a side every now and again? It's all so painful and labourious to watch. Needs freshening up badly — and not just with players. Maybe Moyes needs a new Number 2 because this is dire.

Other top 4 teams have much stronger benches than we do and until we get a couple of REAL QUALITY players in the squad we will struggle. Spurs have Defoe, Adebayor and Dempsey. Man Utd have Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Wellbeck. Man City have Aguero, Tevez, Dzecko and Balotelli. Chelsea have Torres and Demba Ba...

All the above teams have midfield players who chip in with goals. Realistically only Arsenal are in the same boat as us for strikers. We need another striker and really good midfield creator plus someone to provide competition for Howard.

It's the standard one to do when trying to win the game, taking the holding mid, put Fellaini back then put Naismith on so Anichebe can go up front.

But then the ball wouldnt stick to us further up the field, even though Fellaini did a good job further back. Naismith was completely ineffective (again!) and my patience is running out a bit with him. Was Oviedo on the bench? Why didnt he come on?!

It shows to me that the squad is gettng a bit weak, we need another attacking player desperately. Either a striker, winger or even get Mirallas, I don't really care, we need to do something. Other than Anichebe, Oviedo and to an extent Vellios, we don't really have anything positive attacking wise.

Naismith is not the answer, especially on the wing, can maybe do a job in the middle, but to persist on him playing in the right is doing anybody any good.

But positives is we controlled the game pretty much. And Fellaini and Coleman played really well. I just hope Moyes can do something in the transfer window to reinvigerate the squad in the final third.

Don't get me wrong — I don't for one minute think we didn't try to win the game, but it was all huff and puff and very little in the way of artistry. I know Mirallas is missed but come on — how many games has he taken part in?

Moyes has never really found an answer to packed defensive formations and to be fair he doesn't have that magic player who can spring a surprise in and around the area.

How come every goalscorer we get seems to start off like a house on fire... and then, slowly but surely, his confidence and attitude disappear before our very eyes. I would send Jelavic on holiday for a week and 'rest' him for the Southampton game, because to continually play him is not doing him or the team any good at all.

Eight at home and eight away with games at OT, Emirates, Stamford Bridge and Anfield means we can ill-afford these draws at home... To get 30+ points from those last 16 games is going to be a tall order, unless we buy a striker!

I think that magic player is injured, I cant imagine how we would be doing if Mirallas was fit all season.

Anichebe was back to normal today. When the ball was on the left, he would stay out wide right and when the ball was on the right, he would come into the middle. Someone needs to tell the talentless, fat, lazy bastard it's suppose to be the other way round.

I was pleased with Coleman, he was the only player who looked interested today.

I hope Moyes can pull it off though. I mean he did with Drenthe, so hopefully we can do it again (a player with the ability of Drenthe, NOT THE ATTITUDE)

I don't wanna get Jimmy back talking about Drenthe again

Add to that this continuous playstation dreaming about Fantasy Football nonsense of bringing in this player or that in the holy grail for so many fans — the wondrous Transfer Window... GET REAL!!! It's not going to happen!!!

On any given day, we have the players who are available: they have to perform to the peak of their ability – both individually and as a team — and I firmly believe getting them to do that is the primary function of the manager. That's what they should be working on all week; that's what we should be seeing on the field.

Of course they are not going to achieve it every week, but at least the signs should be there that they are up for it, and that manager has the plans in place and has flexibility to adopt those plans to break down even the most obdurate of defences.

Instead, what we have is the perennial excuse-making for a manager who is NOT making the best use of the resources he has acquired. There are many examples you can point to but for me this was exemplified this week by two crucial things: sending Barkley out instead of grooming him where he needs to be playing — in the Premier League (although my fear now is the damage is done and we have another Vaughan/Rodwell/Baxter clone on our hands). And secondly, not hauling Neville off at the first opportunity when it was clear in the first half that he was having a total nightmare.

It's crucial decisions like this, and Moyes's limited imagination and ultra cautious nature, that will continue to limit what he can achieve at Everton with the potential inherent in the squad he has assembled.

And how anyone can say Fellaini dominated their midfield is beyond me — he was crap! His touch for a so-called world class player is atrocious! I wouldn't bother one bit if someone came in for him.

Can someone please tell me what the fuck that substitution was about?!? Going for a win, and he brings a midfielder off for another midfielder... can't this manager see what we all see — that Naismith is rubbish??? He's actually got worse as the season has got on.

And then, to add insult to injury, he brings a striker on with 8 minutes left and continues to play the same way! Fucking baffling... but then that's been typical of Moyes's reign.

All-in-all, a bad day at the office.

Is that some kind of back handed compliment to Neville? If he had been subbed for anyone other than the awful Naismith there would have been an improvement.

Steven Naismith. Why Moyes, why? You don't put this bloke on when you are desperate for a goal.

His decision making and awareness get worse every game he plays.

Well I agree with you there, I really can't believe how bad Naismith is. From what I've seem from him this season he is well on the way to being the worst Everton player I've ever seen.

Jelly has changed how he plays, he certainly works hard and also seems to be diving less. As stated above, he is class but just not getting results now, but I firmly believe class will prevail, and until it does emerge, as long as he puts a shift in then I will not complain. Same with Peanut who has been tireless in the past month.

Probably points missed today, but they are no mugs, with the best defensive record over the past month, we just need to regroup and trust that some player trading in the next two weeks helps us out. Cheers, Ian

Reportedly... he heard from people AT EVERTON that they doubted Jelavic could replicate the performance he had shown last term through a whole season, and continue to produce his impressive goal return. Also, that they would consider letting him go if they got a good offer for him... and all this was LAST SUMMER!

Talk about incomprehensible negativity, from INSIDE the club. And they wonder now why he is not performing!!! This utter shit just blows my mind...

We dominated the game from start to finish but just didn't have enough quality to be the difference and win the game. We needed a player with the quality of RVP or Suarez as much as I hate the guy. Let's not forget, Swansea have just beat Chelsea 2 - 0, they are a good side but we had them crammed on the edge of their box for most of the game.

As for Naismith, I didn't think he was as bad as people are making out, apart from one atrocious pass in their box. I thought he made more of an impact than Neville while he was on the field. Neville is only worth playing when we need some defensive cover but Swansea had no intention of putting any attack together so he had nothing to do.

You must have forgotten Nyarko and Brett Angel — god, he's bad but not quite that bad!!

I thought Felli was too busy trying to keep away from confrontation too much but he was still our most creative player. For some reason, after a good attacking first 45, Coleman spent most the second half defending against a powder-puff Swans front line.

No doubt about it: Swansea have put a good squad together and earned their point the hard way.

What about bringing on Oviedo on instead of Naismith, Oviedo has shown promise in his brief time on the pitch while Naismith has shown nothing despite playing in nearly every game. Plus it might have seen Pienaar play better if he was on the right as Swansea marked him and Baines out the game.

I had no complaints with the starting line-up really. We could have had a few goals in the first half. My only annoyance came with Moyes tactics in the second half. 10 minutes in and it was clear (if it wasn't already) that Swansea came for a point and werent interested in scoring goals. Therefore Neville becomes redundant. All he served to do was break up our play better than Swansea themselves could muster.

Surely, SURELY Hitzlsperger should have come on as at least he can pick out a pass.

I've stuck up for Naismith in the past and argued he's a decent player. I thought he looked good in pre-season. Well, I was wrong, he's terrible. No pace, can't dribble, and he hits his passes harder than his shots. I'd have got Kennedy on instead. He's a lad who deserves a chance in my opinion. Consistantly good for the ressies and bags of talent. And importantly, he just can't be any worse!

Cant really have a go at anyone else. Jelavic was feeding off scraps. Baines wasnt great, his set pieces were poor, but you can't have a go at such a consistent player. Coleman was good, probably my MOTM.

All in all, a bit disappointed with 0-0 but I didnt expect Swansea to approach the game like that. That was as negative as I've seen anyone set up all season. However if Arsenal lose tomorrow, with WBA losing and Spurs drawing its not been too damaging a result.

Also, Phil Dowd is a knob. Such an aggressive referee who loves the limelight. And 4 minutes added time??? 5 bookings and 5 subs in the second half - that's 5 minutes straight away

With respect to Jelavic, I'm entirely with Paul. We were treated with a superb run of form post-Jan last season...just as Newcastle were with Cisse. But Jelavic is out of form atm, and getting frustrated. It's not Moyes's instructions, it is just what happens sometimes. He is still, imo, the best striker we've had at this club, and I fancy him to be a 14/15 goal a season man for several seasons.

Let's not overreact.

If he's also setting up others to compliment your desired one dimensional version of the man, is this not a good thing or do you not think he has that ability?

There was always more to him than his one-touch record, which is focused on too much if it dismisses his all round ability.

Jelavic needs 3 weeks out to touch his inner self and Naismith needs selling while other teams don't realise he is poor to average at best.

Coleman should have been moved to right wing and Vellios on with 30 mins to go. We could all see it was a nil-nil result after about 10 minutes...

Also, how many strikers is he going to fuck up??? He is at it again with Jella, turning him into a channel-running headless chicken, neither of which he will ever be. What he is, is a clinic alone touch finisher, in and around the box.

I am a big fan of Jelavic and his type of attacker, the man will play right with the right partner... I've said it so many times.

They are maybe not so great players each for themselves, but together I strongly believe they are dynamite. But I guess our manager will see hell freeze over before he tries 4-4-2.

And today I was amazed by Coleman, he is fantastic to hold on the ball when challenged. He will grow to be perfect for us.

I have to agree with the commentary on Naismith who doesn't look up to it to me and should be shipped out. Oviedo should definitely be preferred...

I was particularly impressed by the performance of Seamus Coleman today, who seems to be coming on quite a bit and was the main bright spark.

No, thought not.

Peter Mills, No doubt you are pleased with their self-fulfilling prophecy? It's this think kind of thinking that underlines to me why we will achieve nothing again this season.

24 is not youth in this game. I'm just saying he's never been that good.

We have had a fantastic season and will finish in the top half without spending a fraction of what other teams above and below us have spent. It's no good talking about resting this player or dropping that player. We do not have the luxury of decent replacements for anyone.

Our main eleven players which include Mirallas and Gibson are as good as any in the league and have cost far less than virtually any other Premier League side. If they are all fit and firing we are a match for anyone. But without that first eleven we are depending upon has-beens, never-wases and free-bees to make up the numbers.

Be honest, Naismith, Hitzlsperger, Heitinga and Neville are not up to it and Anichebe would struggle to make the bench at a top 4 club.

Why the comment: 'no, thought not'?

I'm sure most realised I mean't fifth, not fourth. You are an editor still on here aren't you? and do you understand the concept of objectivity as such? or are you going to jump on people for typos now?

Pathetic.

When the left had side of our attack was nullified, why didn't he bring Oviedo on and switch Pienaar to the right? He also brings on Naismith who has had a sequence of nightmare performances instead of somebody like Vellios who surely would have given us more threat up front.

Swapping Neville for Hitzlsperger a lot earlier would have made sense when the former was clearly struggling to impose himself on the game. It is this lack of imagination and pro-active thinking which is hindering our progress in tough matches like today's. It was there for the taking today and we blew it again.

Felli looked out of sorts, and Osman, as ever (with almost no exceptions), was neutral/a liability.

I thought Coleman and Anichebe did OK, as well as Distin.

We failed to make to break them down because we lack a playmaker (Osman is SO very far from that) to complement Fellaini. Swansea neutralized our 'left' threat better than any team this season, and that hurt us.

Moyes is doing well given his very limited tactical nous (he's so slow to react in games and lacks an offensive instinct when it is needed).

I think we'll struggle to make a UEFA place (CL is out); I hope it doesn't mean the exit of key players in the summer.

The one hope is that Mirallas returns soon; he's a terrific opener of a game. We need him.

Facts are that we created enough chances to win and dominated the match but a combination of poor finishing and good defending denied us. We lack an in-form striker.

Please forgive me for not correcting it directly, as I have seen this used before to put down valid comments: namely that our league position and points difference to 3rd place somehow negates reasonable concerns.

That's what I would call truly pathetic, if you're taking that stance.

Just one of those days.

The players did everything but score today. Jags had a bit of a ropey game with some mistakes which weren't punished; Neville was like a crab but again not punished, and too many shots straight at the keeper instead of to either side of him.

And then what do you do? You go on further down to say "what we have is the perennial excuse-making for a manager who is NOT making the best use of the resources he has acquired". Now what was that about. We have what we have, live with it?

People seem to once again complain about the usual suspects, Neville, Osman, Vic and to some degree Jella. Today at least no complaints about Heitinga!!

In fact the one who frustrated me the most today was Pienaar. Some times we become one dimensional with our left side, and my countryman managing Swansea had clearly a plan to stop our left side. And still Pienaar kept on holding to the ball, stepping on it, and trying small tricky passes even when they had around 15 Swansea players in that side.

We need to be able to switch side and attack from the right as well. And today Coleman had a decent game, although his crossing is still poor. But I think in general our left side would become stronger if we played more at the right side. We are becoming too easy to defend against, if we only try to penetrate from the left, and Jelavic so called poor form is more down to poor service.

I've worked far too much over the past month, and as a consequent there will be stupid typos... although most usually they are confined to the miss-spelling of Pienaar's name. Apologies if one has caused confusion.

Today was another day that we struggled against a weaker team at Goodison. If teams shut down the left side, we are in major trouble. Mirallas will be a huge addition when he gets back from injury.

Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal are going to finish ahead of us, I feel. I will gladly take 6th place right now and to finish ahead of the redshite... not much ambition, but the best we can hope for, I think. COYB — Keep the faith!

That's our problem in a nutshell.

We were playing with 7 men here, Baines and Pienaar were essentially marked out of it, Jelli is out of form, and Neville; his most telling contribution was to take the ball off Coleman's foot. He didn't, given Swansea's version of Park the Bus have much need to 'take the ball off their feet' so he was a waste of space in a shirt almost anybody could've filled to better effect btw have Leeds played yet, what was their team line up and how did they go on.

No Plan B — and nobody on the bench to play it if we did.

For all their battling sweat, British players do generally have much less control (vide (the hideously over-rated) Osman).

"Add to that this continuous playstation dreaming about Fantasy Football nonsense of bringing in this player or that in the holy grail for so many fans — the wondrous Transfer Window... GET REAL!!! It's not going to happen!!!"

If it bothers you so much then why do you, as editor, use this website to regurgitate transfer rumour after transfer rumour with a comments section beside it? You don't keep throwing fuel on the fire to put it out.

You really have a problem with Osman, don't you? He's a good player, there's no two ways about it.

I appreciate the pundits, the players and the fans generally take a quite different view, but I'm going with my eyes ... .

If we want CL football, LO shouldn't even be in the squad.

Swansea did a job on Chelsea a few days ago and they are in the best form of the season.
So we only managed a draw but so did Spurs with a vastly more expensive squad than ours.

Put things in perspective, we should have at least six points more than we have with a bit of luck and we have lost three games out of the last 31..

We have beaten Man Utd who top the league by miles.

No player can be faulted for effort and if we could have two or three additions to this squad they would reach a european spot.
I would love Lukaku, Buttland and Zabaleta for starters.

The sub today should have been Hitzlsperger for Neville, he's got 50-plus caps for Germany, for god's sake. Moyes hasn't got a clue with subs, he just makes things worse.

How bad does Neville have to play to be left out? How long does Moyes need to make his mind up about Anichebe? He's 25 this year, the same generation as James Vaughan. At this rate, he'll get his testimonial before dithering Davey decides if he's going to make it!!!!!

He gives the ball away from time to time because he is an attacking midfielder trying to open up defences.

His shot is poor, there's no denying that. But no worse than Pienaar or Naismith.

I'm fed up of arguing Ossie's case to be honest. If you can't see that he's a good player then I'm sure I can't convince you.

We're all frustrated today but target your attacks were it makes some sense.

If the likes of Vellios, Gueye and others aren't up to the job why are they here? If Naismith is the go to guy in a situation where we need a goal or a telling pass then we are extremely lucky to be in fifth place. Would it hurt the team for Moyes to try a wild card by throwing on Kennedy for 20 mins, nothing ventured nothing gained.

. The team have the same number of points at this moment in time as they achieved with 29 games gone last season this is admirable but it still won't be enough to get us what we all want. You're right to praise the players for their efforts but deep down they probably don't believe that they will get 4th place due to squad limitations.

All down to the lack of funds from Mr Chairman. (He`s a good blue though!)

He can't just get rid of them because to do that he then needs to buy replacements of similarly modest price and try to do exactly the same thing. Also these players can come good but it takes while. Moyes knows his players better than we do. If the squad is weak as you say, we all know what the cause is.

Very strange sentiments re. Osman in my eyes. There is a reason he is getting plaudits...and he is a big part of the reason why we are fifth in this league. His vision and passing are superb, and he has a fantastic touch. I really fail to see why the likes of Downing, Barry and Milner, who have been in the England squad for extended periods in the past/present, should be ahead of Osman on current form. We are England... a fairly decent national side, not Spain or Germany. He also has 5 goals from a deep lying position this season, which I consider to be a very good return when you compare him with players who occupy a similar position but do not take freekicks/pens. So evidently, his shooting, whilst weak, is not awful.

Also - Michael, with respect to:

'Instead, what we have is the perennial excuse-making for a manager who is NOT making the best use of the resources he has acquired. There are many examples you can point to but for me this was exemplified this week by two crucial things: sending Barkley out instead of grooming him where he needs to be playing — in the Premier League (although my fear now is the damage is done and we have another Vaughan/Rodwell/Baxter clone on our hands). And secondly, not hauling Neville off at the first opportunity when it was clear in the first half that he was having a total nightmare.'

Firstly...to say we are 'NOT' making the best of resources is strange, and a little conflicting based on other comments, as previously mentioned. We are fifth in this league...the four teams above us have massively outspent us in gross and net terms during Moyes reign. As a quick comparison...we've a gross spend of 60million in the last five seasons...whereas Spurs have 205million, Chelski 326million, United 184mil and City 326mil. Incidentally, Liverpool have spent 252mil, and Villa 159m in the same period. I'm not sure a better validation of our resources exists than relative spending. But addressing your arguments directly. Neville could have gone off earlier...im guessing he stayed on because Swansea have a great attacking threat, especially on the break, as illustrated at Chelski, and we had two attacking full backs on, and a genuinely attacking set up. I don't think taking Neville off, is our most defensively minded midfielder, on the 69th minute was the worse of decisions as a result.

With respect to Barkley.. I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has watched him, thinks he is really to play central midfield (his position), for us at the moment. He lacks the experience or defensive capacity necessary for a central role in our system, and is incredibly naive... imo a more exaggerated version of Wilshere's naivety when he first broke into the Arsenal team, but with less natural ability. If we get injuries, we can call him back.

I also do not understand how you, and others, can continue to call Moyes cautious. We have been one of the most attacking sides in this division since last January...and today was not a cautious set up. We played 2 attacking full backs, 2 attacking midfielders in Pienaar and Fellaini, and Jelavic and Anichebe, both strikers by trade. We also brought Naismith(an attacking player...whether he is good or not is beside the point) for our most defensively minded midfielder, over 20 minutes from the end! How exactly is that cautious?

I am also reasonably optimistic we will bring in a player this window.

We didn't play fantastic... but we should have taken one of the chances that came our way. It is fucking irritating of course... but as I said previously, I'm less disappointed with this point, than many of our other draws this season. If we win next week (and I think we need to do), I believe we have a very good chance of being fourth come Monday evening. That's why I think we need to temper our criticism a little... because we are very much in the top four fight.

We ould really do with Mirallas back. Any chance of him making Monday I wonder?

Dude, if going with your eyes honestly tells you that Leon Osman shouldn't be in the squad, then I suggest you get yourself down to the nearest white stick/guide dog emporium asap!

A lot of comments saying we controlled the game today, as if it was some sort of achievement. Swansea let us control the game; they weren't interested in competing for control of the ball, they conceded it right from the start and tried to hit us on the counter. They challenged us to break them down and we couldn't. These are the type of games/situations we have struggled to win all through Moyes's tenure; if we want to kick on, he has to work out how to win the games where the onus is on us!

I would say that potentially missing the opportunity to get all three just to ensure that we hold onto one is a bit of a false economy in these sort of games and so I can understand those who are bemoaning the manager's delay in trying to ramp up the attacking threat in this game (and some of the personnel he ultimately chose when he did change things). How much of a threat did Swansea pose after Phil Neville was substituted? Did we really need his defensive attributes for the majority of the time he was on the pitch, ie, how many of their attacks did he personally snuff out?

Leon Osman has been an important player for us this season, but in recent games he has apparently become inviolate with some apparently unable to notice the drop-off in the standards he had previously been displaying on a regular basis. We need a real alternative to him available in the squad and on the bench for every game. The fact that we don't currently have one and appear to have no plans to invest in one is a severe oversight by the club's hierarchy in my view.

This has to work two ways though.

This game against Swansea should have been three points to Everton, and it was only through Moyes's selection, lack of response to the game, and poor/wrong substitutions that we didn't win. This is not a game where his die hard, ginger eyed supporters should be coming on here and praising him for the job he "has done", but to let the criticism for a very poor night at the office flow. Seriously, he dropped Bily, Heitinga, Gueye, Drenthe et al for less ordinary football that Naismith is putting out there. This, after he struggled to keep the ball against a League Two fucking side.

People cite money spent – well, fuck Swansea, we are Everton and have a better squad than them, regardless of how much they've spent (I have no idea how much they've spent). Likewise, people say Liverpool have spent x while we've only spent y. Well, out of their entire squad, Suarez, Reina, to an extent Gerrard and Johnson are the only players they have that would have a chance of playing for us on talent, ability or form.

Others cite hindsight being a virtue – it isn't hindsight and it hasn't been for the last two to three years. It's the same team running out on the field and the same subs coming on at the same point of the game. On the live feed almost everyone was pre-emptively moaning about Naismith's introduction 15 minutes before he came on. And we all knew that if Vellios was coming on he'd get less than 10 minutes. That's not hindsight, that's being predictable.

I just watched the game for a second time, and I'm convinced that the players, forwards especially, do barely any finishing practice, as someone with Jelavic's talent and goal-scoring record should not be missing this many sitters unless he is not working on it regularly.

Jelavic, last seasons 'instinctive' striker, has become, under Moyes and Rounds coaching, a 'headless chicken' with no ability to react instinctively at all.

So the question must be asked and, as many TW posters have confirmed, the fans can see all this clear as day (at least those who are not perpetual Moyes apologists that is)... So, why can't the manager, Dour Davey — who has every attribute of an excellent manager except money to spend (if you want to believe the sycophants and the Media Pundits) — see it too?

We can all hope for an injection of new blood in the transfer window but will that make Davey a better manager or Round a better coach? Of course NOT.

Not too bad sometimes but sqeeze it and it tends to crumble.

If we are going to compete in this league with the players we have then we need to perform to the best of our ability, both as individuals and as a team when they take to the field. That's down to the manager. Either he's up for it... or it's the infamous "knife to a gunfight" mentality that has us beaten before we cross the white line.

He acquires a decent enough squad but he continues to make poor overly cautious decisions, at least that's what I see. This season, he has been more adventurous than before, and I believe that is why we have been doing better than in most previous seasons. And yes, you can convince yourself that we're doing as well as can be expected – or better – while the number of games we should have won continues to rise, and the number of games we shouldn't have won but did remains small. That means we could and perhaps should be in a higher place than 5th. That assessment is based on how our players have performed in terms of their own abilities in the 90+ minutes — not any other team's resources.

And regarding Barkley, I am fearful that the chance may have passed. If ever there was a budding and exciting talent that needed nurturing and encouraging 5 months ago... Instead, under Moyes, we have seen the opposite. Every time he talks about him must set the lad back another 6 to 12 months in terms of his confidence and ambition. I hope I'm wrong... but the track record ain't all that great, sadly.

When you see a plan isn't working, change it asap, don't wait.

Message from Moyes:

Who said the plan isn't working??? It might work...

Result? 10 mins left... desperation time!

Many will say it was not the fault of Mr Moyes. We should have scored two or three. Normally I am in this camp... but no more. I've had as much as I can stand.

The comments of many ToffeeWebbers on this thread supply the reasons for my change of heart. Far too many players are comfortable; no matter how bad they are performing they know they will always be picked... and even if they are having a nightmare they will not be removed.

Is Jelavic better than Vellios? Right now he probably isn't; he's certainly slower.

And what's with this Naismith business? The lad tries hard but is plainly not Premier League class. Why is he preferred to Oviedo, a boy of real class with sufficient speed and intelligence to have made a difference? He can operate well in various positions yet is left to rot on the bench while players not fit tie his laces are running around the pitch without a clue.

I could go on but I won't. Get your bags packed Mr Moyes. I'll give you a lift to the airport.

Why is Barkley being compared to Vaughan, Rodwell and Baxter? The first 2 physically are not up to playing Premier League football, and sadly will probably never will be. Did Moyes over play them, not give them a chance? No, he gave both of them a chance and they were not up to it, which influenced his decision to get good money and invest better elsewhere. Baxter was all hype from over excited fans. If he was that good, why did he struggle to get a contract, settling for a low ranking Division 1 outfit.

I have never seen a manager sub a trusted player at half-time 0 - 0 unless injured.

Some demand knee-jerk reactions, demand that senior players get bombed out for this young kid or whatever, and then complain about trust, confidence, consistency. We are all armchair managers who would cause chaos in the work place of L4.

Frustrating as it is, Hitzlsperger is a low-cost cover for Gibson and an ageing Neville. I would prefer McCarthy from Wigan in there, but sadly we never have the money to make key additions that other clubs can.

Holy smoke... We're going for the treble!!!

Also, Jelavic needs a rest badly (but we can't give him one), we badly need Mirallas back and the youngsters have even less chance of getting a game now under Moyes now we are Top 5. And yes we are still Top 5.

Who was this "deep throat II" source that Pougatch quoted and Mr Kenrick placed all his enraged faith in? A director, member of the back-room staff, player, toffeelady, pieman or the bloke selling the carpark passes? We don't know but given that "deep throat I" was about to reveal the full details of a real takeover bid from his bedsit attic room a few weeks ago, we must put our total faith in this latest source.

For as Mr Kenrich said himself about revealing this bombshell "This utter shit just blows my mind..."

We started off with a hiss and a roar catching United cold and we have ever so slowly gone down hill... and so it seems to me the 'poorer' we get the more the old Moyes starts to re-surface... Of course, win the next three on the trot and it's CL here we come and I always knew Moyes had it in him.

That is the lot of Evertonians, it comes with the territory.

And Si, can't agree with the Osman stuff. His performances against West Ham and Chelski were two of his best this season...and obviously the FA cup match was acceptable. How exactly is he displaying a drop off in standards?

I suppose what surprises me, is that we've used Osman this season in pretty much every game, Neville frequently, and Naismith, as well as Jelavic who can't hit a barndoor apparently. That we are fifth, says the assessment of some of those players are overly harsh. I think Naismith is shit too...he reminds of Hibbert, if he were an attacking player (no offence to Hibbert...I'm a great admirer of his defensive ability). But I suppose the issue with Naismith, is that he is possibly third or even fourth choice right mid atm, as I expect that if Hibbert was fit, Coleman would be pushed up. I don't see the issue playing Anichebe...he has been in form, and can do just as good a job as Naismith, whilst he also played very well coming off a wide position against Chelski.

Our next 3 matches are Southampton away, WBA at home, and Villa at home. We must win all three, and if we do, we will be fourth heading into the last quarter of the season I expect. Hopefully, by the time those three matches are up, we would have also added either an attacking wide player (right sided)/striker or another central midfield. I'm holding off the pessimism for the moment, because I personally think we've been fantastic this season, and the kind of criticism we witness after any loss of points is over-top, and generally unfair. I also think a nine day rest is going to do us good.

The issue from what I saw yesterday isn't that we didn't create enough chances or weren't solid enough at the back, but rather a number of PLAYERS failed to take one of many presentable chances which is the theme of the season. Why is it Moyes's fault that Distin didn't attack the back post from the Jelavic flick, or Victor/Jags didn't bury those headers, Fellaini's back pass, Neville pinching Coleman's chance etc.

To be a successful side players like Distin, Jags, Pienaar etc need to be weighing in with more goals. We collectively believe that these players are good players, well good players elsewhere score more than 2 or 3 a season and perform their team role; average ones don't.

Perhaps we need to accept they are a bit more average than we like to admit. Jelavic is having a tough time, is working the flanks too much, but others need to step up to the plate. Moaning about us not battering teams when we are creating 14 to 25 chances on goal a game, isn't the fault of manager. Players need to learn to take them.

Remember this is only ONE GAME! We didn't even play that well, and we had at least four chances to win.

Now all of a sudden, we're not gonna finish in the European places, after one game? It's ridiculous over reactions again.

I'll understand if we lost a few games in a row, but if we beat Southampton on Monday, there'll be talk of how well we are playing and how we can finish in the top 4 blah blah.

The conclusion of the game in my opinion is our squad showed up, we had no one on the bench to make a massive difference in the game today. Michael can say all he wants about transfers, all we need is a couple of loan signings to boost numbers and the squad a bit. Why can't he do it again Michael? We got Arteta, Pienaar (twice!), Fernandes (twice again!) and Drenthe all on loan, which made a difference, all with our supposed lack of resources. Why can't Moyes do that again?

I thought we played OK, but apart from a few headers we didn't really create that much else. Swansea defended excellently and on a few occasions countered us, but I don't think Jags and Distin had too many problems. People talking about Michu, what about Chico Flores? Another excellent buy for little money by Swansea.

I am a firm believer that Oviedo and Vellios should be getting more minutes than just the few 10 minute cameos every other game. They have bags more ability than the likes of Anichebe and Naismith yet he persists with those yet they have little impact on games. And I don't understand Neville playing in the midfield too, with Barkley out on loan and Hitz on the bench. I'm not renewing my season ticket if Neville gets a contact extension.

There are a few moaning about Jelavic, yet there's a reason for him not scoring as much as last season. The service into Jelavic hasn't been as good this season. Moyes is too focused on Fellaini and makes Jelavic work a lot harder around him, notably going out to the wing, instead of being in the box. Clearly Jelavic is struggling for chances. I ask why our manager doesn't change it around for games and plays to Jelavic instead. In games like yesterday, we needed just the one goal but we were never going to get it even if we had played for 180 minutes. It would be interesting to see Naismith behind Jelavic, just saying.

(Michael Kenrick: Post 356).

The facts: We've been beaten just TWICE in 22 league games this season...

Sack him and bring in one of the numerous high class managers currently out of work who can obviously guarantee that we will win the league. It's so easy I don't know why it hasn't been done already.

In the real world now, we did miss numerous chances, Jelavic one of the guilty as usual missing inside the box (not from the wing), but on another day one would have been taken by someone and the 3 points would have been bagged. It's how it goes.

Just wish people would stop being anti Moyes without putting any positive alternative forward. Guess it's easy to just criticise, it's must be too difficult to actually come up with an alternative.

What gets to many fans, including myself, is the reluctance to bring a badly performing player off until it makes little difference who comes on with so little time left.

We have thrown away points this season because of our manager's reluctance to change, his conservatism always looks to keep a point than go for three. When we see positive substitutions, it's usually after we concede or with less than 10 mins to go.

Moyes? Done well but could do better...

The blind inability to see the many qualities of Oviedo cannot be dismissed lightly. It is, in fact, quite serious. This highly talented young Costa Rican has the class, intelligence and pace to be successfully utilised in various positions... as Moyes himself recently admitted Sadly, he does not like to use young players and it is costing us dearly.

Is your point that he doesn't get it right so he shouldn't then be paid £4M? Or, having decided to pay him £4M, he must get it right?

This is not just having a go at the player. To me he is one of our regulars who is looking tired, and he needs someone to share his responsibilities. When he is paired with Neville and Fellaini is upfront he is expected to patrol the wide open spaces and he is simply not up to doing it week in week out.

In regard to recent performances all I can say is that my opinion in you weren't watching the majority of the Chelsea game particularly closely because he was dispossessed far too easily and simply bypassed or run past pretty much at will. He scored a nice goal against Cheltenham, but was otherwise distinctly average. I can remember at least two occasions when he put simple passes to our left wing 5 yards in front of the player and out when there was no pressure on, plenty of his other passes were poor and he was easily outpaced and dispossessed on multiple occasions. Just because these instances have not led to us being punished directly does not mean they won't cost us sometime in the future.

His biggest strength, his quick feet and ability to evade close attention, is simply not being used often enough in the areas where it poses the greatest threat to the opposition.

We have been told that some business is likely to be done during this window (albeit without a lot of money changing hands) and I will be bitterly disappointed if taking up the option on Hitzlsperger is the limit of our midfield recruitment. Too many older / slower legs for my liking. I wouldn't necessarily expect someone with Osman's level of skill, more some power and pace to get box to box.

You can't come up with something a little more thoughtful and insightful, Mr Walker? It's actually not how it goes. WE drew the game that we ought to have won; don't get me started on the Neville Chamberlains on here saying "not a bad result", "The Swans parked the bus", "credible result", "decent point"...

"It's not how it goes" Mr Walker: our link-up play was bottom drawer, no joined-up footie, midfield was crap, finishing was school-of-the-blind quality. And then, Mr Walker, there is Neville, there is Naismith, there is yet again poor subbing, there is bringing on Naismith and not the Costa Rican.

We are all I am sure deeply grateful for your much needed splash of realism and high church lecturing, Mr Walker, but that it not "how it goes". That mess yesterday was created, it was the result of many things, it did not come from anywhere: that is how it goes Mr Walker.

And then there is your ridiculous Winter 2011 vintage complacent unhelpful platitude: "Eh, who ya gonna replace him with, eh, eh, eh, who's gonna step into his shoes, eh, eh, eh???" Where the fuck does that come from, eh? So, rightfully in my view and that of others, there is criticism levelled at the team and the gaffer springing from frustration and more than a fair slice of reason.

So, in Walker's hands this becomes, "Blah blah blah, who ya gonna get in the, eh? blah, blah" — Did anyone call for Moyes's head Mr Walker? Did they?

So, answer this question directly and make sure you do, as you seem to like throwing down the gauntlet to others: Why did you take the leap from well founded and concerned criticism to (1) not countering it with anything of substance but "that's how it goes". And (2) insist in 2 posts now that those blues daring to have a dig at the team and gaffer should come up with an alternative?

Instead of completely conceptualizing issues and coming up with unreasonable tripe, let's put the foot on the other shoe, shall we, and you answer questions about your pontificating posts Mr Walker, okay?

Simply polarise somebody's post by making out it is actually an extreme and unreasonable position and then you don't have to do the tricky bit of countering their points at all.

The other favourite is listing a series of examples that you think 'prove' your point of view (even though they never can unless you have access to the parallel universes where the alternative scenarios occurred) whilst conveniently ignoring examples that don't fit your argument.

Ian Bennett, most of us on here that have criticised Moyes on this thread HAVE acknowledged that it was the players that let us down, but that it is MOYES that selected some wrong players and not using the players on the bench effectively.

Oviedo has shown more promise in about 200 minutes of football than Naismith has shown in 1000, Neville's performance was summed up when a bloke 11 years younger than him and with about 500 less senior games berated him for stealing the ball off of him.

For the record, Neville had the gall to post on Twitter that while he was disappointed for dropping points that he "should of (sic) scored". That, for me, shows just how comfortable some of these players are. If Barkley had have stolen that ball off Coleman and not scored, he would sit the next six months on the bench. It's this favouritism that Moyes shows that has just gone on too long.

His substitutions, apart from injuries, are far too often too late, and with the WRONG players too, such as Naismith. There is no question or situation to which the answer is: "let's bring on Naismith". His well known (he is in print and on record saying it himself) record of falling back on KITAP1 just gives the opposition the advantage.

Hitzslperger or Oviedo might have changed the game with an assist or indeed a goal, however he clearly has felt that the XI who finished the game were the most likely to get him something. If you asked a straw pole most before the match would have agreed with that finishing XI, with votes split on the problematic right hand side.

I like Oviedo, but not on the right. Sticking him wide left does take something from Baines as both like to hug the left side, whilst most would keep the best left side Premier League duo together. Hitzlsperger has done okay, but certainly has not ripped up any trees. I am not sure he would be getting my vote over Osman or Fellaini in the centre, as both are more creative and both score more goals.

Howard - not attacking
Jagielka - not attacking
Distin - not attacking
Baines - semi-attacking as defending is still his primary role
Coleman - semi-attacking as defending is still his primary role
Osman - apparently attacking but playing deep - struggles late in games
Fellaini - was not attacking after subs came on
Naismith - attacking but defended better for them more than he attacked for us
Pienaar - attacking
Vellios - attacking - should have been on earlier, much earlier
Jelavic - attacking - but perhaps needs a rest.

Regardless of how many of those players you consider attacking players, the game plan wasn't working, and Moyes took too long to "change" anything. Like I said on an earlier post, if you need to change things with 10 to go at home against a club like Swansea, the game plan HAS NOT worked, and changes should have been made as early as half time.

In the end we had a sub remaining, and I'm not a fan of using three subs every game just because you can, but in this game, to have Oviedo and Hitz on the bench while the 11 on the field obviously weren't getting the job done is just poor management. No amount of discussion is going to change my opinion on this game. This was Moyes's doing. You might come back with "Oviedo or Vellios or Hitz might not have made a difference coming on earlier or at all", but I'll tell you something: they didn't contribute anything from the bench.

People wanted the substitutions done earlier (who cares who 'finishes' the game) and despite you not liking Oviedo on the right an awful lot would have preferred him there considering the way the game was going and who the alternative was.

In case you didn't notice, we desperately needed more threat on the right yesterday because Swansea were neutralising our left-hand threat (this can happen if you are one dimensional). Seamus made some good attempts to offer an alternative but he was doing it from full-back and needed someone in front.

As another alternative Hitzlsperger could have easily sat in front of our defence and been as effective defensively as Phil Neville was all game, whilst offering a great deal more in terms of vision and passing ability.

Attack-minded but not very good is not the same as attack-minded and decent. Getting 10 or 20 minutes to make a difference is not the same as getting 30 /35.

Roman - the last eight listed IMO are all attacking type players, all like to get forward and all have scored goals for us and all can create. If he had left a Hibbert, or a Neville on, I can understand the point, but he didn't. The fact that you have included attacking in those listed, and then tried to wriggle back out of it I think proves the point.

As I say hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I would be surprised if any manager would be making changes to his team at half time against a team like Swansea with the game at nil-nil. If the side were losing and had played badly I could understand it, but they weren't that bad. Special one stroppy substitutions at 0 - 0, is sure to break the team spirit that is key to a club like ours (we are repeatedly told this is why we are better than the sum of our parts), so I thank the lord you remain at you key board rather than the training ground.

In relation to your Baines/Pienaar comment, I don't where to start. Your knee-jerk football manager comment is a bit of a joke. Perhaps we should of subbed them both at half time? Me, I am happy to keep the set piece quality of Baines, and the flair of Pienaar, and hope our quality told. 19 times in the last 20 it's worked.

Si – Oviedo is not effective on the right. It's been tried and never really worked. The simple truth is we don't have good enough backup for the right-hand side, and disappointingly nothing ever coming through from the youth.

Why put Hitzlsperger on for Neville, when Osman and Fellaini were a better option in the centre, a combination that has worked a couple of times this season already?

Jim Knightley, a balanced piece of writing and a descriptive analysis of the game and were we stand. Yes, we didn't play to our normal standard, one goal and the flood gates may have opened. If Stoke had come to Goodison and played like Swansea there would be a different opinion, but as it's Swansea, well it's fine. They were anti-football with that display, a disgrace and should offer us Danny Graham as way of an apology.

Phil made the comment earlier about this lad and what did we have to lose in giving him 20 minutes instead of Naismith? — and I agree.

I agree with your comments about making a change at half-time; with a bit better finishing we could have had 2 or 3 goals. The point remains though that Moyes is basically a reactive manager, who is very cautious with his substitutions and plays people out of position.

For instance, it is clear that Naismith is not a right midfielder, and you can see that by constantly playing him there his confidence is shot. I don't think he is as bad as people are making out but I wouldn't be playing him on the right hand side. So he is getting mercilessly slaughtered, just like Osman did when he was being played out of position by Moyes for years!

I would have also been giving Barkley a run out on the right hand side when he came back from Sheffield Wednesday but that's another story.

And let's not over-hype Oviedo. He has looked decent, but some of these comments suggest he is the obvious answer to our current right-sided issue, when he isn't. We have a problem on that side, and we need to address it this window, because we do not have a current real option in the squad, only out-of-position players, who all are adequate, but nothing more.

And Si... all I can say is that I was watching the Chelski game more closely than you. In the game I watched, we won the central midfield battle in general, and were the better team despite a patched-up starting 11. I wonder sometimes whether some people watch highlights on MotD, and then imagine our players are so much worse than other teams... and that we are fifth despite carrying 2/3 players a match, and with a manager who is tactically inept. Problem is, I suppose our position, and our finances contradict that... but oo well, let's forget about those. Neville is the worse player in this league, Osman is vastly overrated, Jelavic is now rubbish because of Moyes etc etc.

Btw, with respect to giving the ball away... did anyone watch either match today? Because guess what... the central mids consistently gave the ball away, and were dispossessed in several dodgy positions. That is why pass statistics in the top 80% are widely applauded.

And there is a lot of talk about misrepresentation on this thread, from certain posters doing a little of their own. For me, the view of the 'pro' Moyes posters (loosely used) is this: We are disappointed to draw, but it is not the end of the world, as Swansea are a good team. It is not: Swansea are a good team, we should be happy with a draw.

This is a significant difference. There is a big over-reaction about this match, and this weekend. I was pissed off at the time, but now, I'm philosophical. We have a nine-day rest before Southampton, whilst our two major competitors play tough matches. On top of that, Spurs drew against the bottom team in this division, Arsenal lost at home, and WBA lost to Reading. Of course a win would have been preferable, but a draw isn't the end of the world.

A team can't win every match... sometimes several players just don't play that well, and that happened yesterday. When we've posters call for Hitz to come on to improve us... well I think that says a lot about our squad problems.

Swansea did a proper job on neutralising Baines & Pienaar yesterday. I am surprised more managers don't mark these two out of the game, as we are so poor down our right-hand side.

I suppose we were due 0 - 0 at some point this season, so we shouldn't get too down about the result.

It's between Arsenal, Spurs and us for 4th spot, and I would say we are 3rd favourites out of the three.

Jelavic closed the keeper down, the ball went free and Victor was slow in anticipating the loose ball. Tracking back was poor and almost let in his marker but for a poor final ball. But as Jim states, he isn't a right-sided player and maybe we should put a player, whatever his experience, into a position where he is comfortable in.

Moyes does tend to lean towards square pegs in round holes, perhaps at the expense of a budding talent getting a chance.

Typically you stretch the opposing view into the realms of absurdity, rather than dealing with it as presented. No-one has asked for wholesale changes at half-time, but people do believe the changes could have been made substantially earlier and different personnel were available who some of us would have been interested to see.

How many times has Oviedo been tried on the right and by what yardstick are you judging his failure in that position? It is certainly much less often than Naismith and the glimpses we have had of the lad have been more promising to boot. Other people have already pointed out that we potentially do have youngsters that could have made a difference. I will take their word for it rather than yours if you don't mind.

We apparently had 5 attempts on target yesterday (and 8 off). Hardly a good number against a team who parked the bus. Please enlighten me with what Phil Neville did on the pitch for 61 minutes that Hitzlsperger is incapable of. Out of those two who would you fancy to create something out of nothing 25 yards out from goal (which could have been the difference yesterday)?

Being as unbiased as possible we should have won 10 of those draws. The mind boggles what a difference a few quid will make; then again, Moyes is useless and half our team is hopeless according to some on here. Interesting to see what they make of those actual stats.

In terms of Neville in midfield, I am not a massive fan if I am honest. Hitzsberger is marginally better, but when we were looking to win the game I think he made the right call in neither being involved for the last 25 mins.

As for those who are saying that Everton are not playing well, they do in my opinion have some merit. I suppose if we had nicked a draw at Newcastle and then beat Swansea at home we would have had the same number of points but a feel good factor would have been in evidence, but when Everton get a positive result i.e. Newcastle away they invariably follow it up with a disappointing one like yesterday.

Only in the Chelsea game out of the last half dozen or so matches have we played the sort of football that we are capable of, even if the result was a negative one. The league this season is probably one of the poorest in quality for some time if not in the entire history of the PL and that is what is making it highly competitive.

It will take one of the teams out of the chasing pack to put together a run of five or six wins to almost guarantee 4th spot, given that Chelsea look like being in the top 3 along with the Manchester clubs.

Can we honestly say that we are truly capable of being that team, the one who takes the bull by the horns and says right lads we're having this?

Like many other supporters I would like to see Mirallas back in the side, but I also think his influence has been overstated as he has only started 9 PL games and completed only 7 which hardly makes him the player of the season — unless of course he gets into double figures goalscoring wise in the remaining 16 PL fixtures.

Crucially that involves making the best use of his substitutions and changing his tactics. To do that he needs to be more flexible in his approach. He is almost a completely reactive manager and it is holding him back. He's a good manager... the question should be: Is he a good enough manager?

Didn't see the international you mentioned. How much help was Oviedo getting from his midfield? Haven't seen anything from him so far that would suggest he is work-shy or doesn't get the tracking-back thing. Most of the responsibility in covering for a full-back who has gone upfield should fall on the central defenders and the defensive midfielders. Your attacking wide men are expected to be upfront when we are attacking and only really get back if the fullback has gone beyond them or the opposing fullback is foraying forwards.

Saturday should have been about us looking to dictate the game and get three points, not being cautious in the fear we would lose one.

Swansea showed very little threat for the majority of the game so I don't think we should have based our tactics on that, and as I have said it was about going for the three points and risking the one we had. Oviedo certainly isn't slow and is definitely quicker than Naismith from what I have seen. Maybe the Mexican lad was really rapid. Was his surname Gonzalez?

Baines naturally overlaps Pienaar, but only when he is implicitly invited to do so. At that stage their right wing threat has to cover back and Pienaar can fill in behind Baines easily if necessary. Coleman tends to get to the by-line even more frequently than Baines because he is the only one on that side who will. It should be relatively easy for Coleman and Oviedo to operate in a similar manner to Baines and Pienaar (maybe expecting less fluency due to less ability) and it would give the opposition another orchestrared threat to consider. Like Pienaar, Oviedo would tend to drift inside on occasion as he is naturally left-footed (Pienaar being right-footed on the left).

It is just an idea of something that was available to be tried, but I don't know why the thought of it would give anyone the heebie-jeebies.

The other thing you pulled me up on is just not true. I didn't advocate taking Baines or Pienaar off. I implied that they had been shut down, so moving Pienaar right and bringing Oviedo on might have been a good move.

As for your "hindsight manager" comment. I've said this, but I'll say it again: it is so predictable that it is no longer hindsight. You can check the live thread for how many of us knew Moyes wouldn't change things until around 70, and that it would be Naismith coming on, and that Vellios might get 5-10 minutes. There were also a very large number of us who could see a 0-0 scoreline once Swansea decided to shut up shop. How come our wealthiest of managers couldn't see it?

David Price, yes, I do mean semi-attacking. True, a fullback does get in on the attacking, and yes, both of ours have scored goals. However, you could bet your bottom dollar that our flawless manager views them as defenders first.

"One of those days", "we dominated the game", "we're creating plenty of chances". I'm fucking sick of hearing it. Some people on here have been celebrating 2-1 wins over crap teams like we've beaten United at OT.

In terms of demanding the substitutions, is this the same group that demand it every week, with their knee jerk reaction and cat calling over every mistake. The enlightened group, hell I am glad that some watch it on the net because I'd hate listening to that pissing and moaning at the match.

It's not knee jerk reacting. It's noticing that Neville was playing probably the worst game he's played in a blue shirt, and the manager not acting accordingly. Let me ask you this: if we have a home game against a team that is in its second season in the Premier League, at least two players on our team that a) aren't playing good enough football, and b) probably worse than the other 20 players on the field, and at the end of the game it's 0-0 with one of our three usable subs still sat on the bench, do you think that the manager has made the right decisions on the day?

If your answer is yes, then there's no point continuing this debate. If your answer is no, then I don't know why we're debating in the first place.

You could just as easy say we finished with 11 defensive players on the pitch as the manager demands all must defend.

So, as you said Si: Why not Oviedo and Coleman? With practice it would work.

Rory... Point noted, mate. Thanks.

Oviedo is a terrific crosser of the ball and always tries to pass with accuracy and intelligence. He also appears to be quite nippy but, after reading your post, I will hold fire on that issue. Hopefully the Mexican was an Aaron Lennon type flying machine.

One thing is certain: with both feet tied together, he is still faster and better than Naismith.

As for the match... Coleman and Jelavic put in a shift but the very game striker looked leg-weary. The others never reached full throttle. Too much football perhaps... Who can tell?

According to Jags and Ossie, we are now entering the period when their bodies begin to feel the effect of constant physical exertion and one or two looked pretty legless on Saturday.

Will Mr Moyes continue in the normal manner or will he rotate? Silly question.

Moyes picked the right team. We were well on top, it just would not go in for us. Not one of them players on the bench were better than the ones on the pitch.

If we had lost the game or played badly, then you can have a go at Moyes; we have only lost three games this season and we are 5th in the league — I just don't understand your logic.

Yes, Steve, I sit in the Gwaldys Street... I thought it was a penalty; MotD never shows anything like that about us but you can bet if it was the other way round they would've shown it.

'In regard to recent performances all I can say is that my opinion in you weren't watching the majority of the Chelsea game particularly closely...'

The basis of your comment assumes the primacy of your view over mine, with an implicit suggestion that I hadn't watch the game properly, or I would have realized Osman hadn't played well. It is a very childish manner of constructing an argument.

Many of my other comments clearly were not aimed at you... but other posters in this thread. Do you struggle with your ego? or am I not allowed to direct my comments to other posters in this thread?

Absolute pathetic. And you talk of slinging mud.

It has become an unfortunate fact that if you dare question anything the manager does on this site you are automatically lumped in with the MOB. That simply is not a fair representation of what a lot of those posters have said and people need to stop doing it. To question my ego and call me pathetic for asking for such a moderate thing perhaps says more about you than it does me.

As for the obvious fact that we can watch the same game and come away with different impressions, well we just have to agree to disagree. The things that convince you don't convince me, and vice versa. Vive la difference, as some might say.

The team was right, we should have won had Fellaini not passed the ball to the goalie, had Jelavic connected better after the fantastic turn, etc etc.

Laudrup has come out and said it was a brilliant point at Goodison, not really an advertisement for us playing poorly really.

Yeah but at the same time Spurs fans will be looking at the home defeat to Wigan, and home draws with Stoke, Norwich and West Brom and saying 'well if we'd won those games we'd be 9 points better off and further clear of Everton'. And Chelsea fans would be saying 'well if we'd not been beaten at home by QPR and been held at home by Fulham we'd be 4 points better of' etc etc etc. Argument doesn't really hold up unless all results go exactly as expected - and what a shit game football would be then, hey?!

Mark Stone, Spurs fans can say whatever the fuck they want, but we SHOULD be at least six points better off just from three home games we SHOULD have won.

Also, the ref & linesman robbed us of two perfectly legal goals against the Toon.

We had something like 5 attempts on target and 8 off which is not a great deal considering their attacking ambitions were minimal. Scoring goals is generally a bit of a numbers game; the more tickets you buy the better your chance of winning the raffle. The fact that some chances were missed should be considered as fairly standard, and it doesn't automatically add up to a job well done.

Fair enough, the manager picks a team based on what he expects to face in any given game, but that is only part of his job on the day isn't it? As the game wore on was there nothing in the way the game was going to suggest that it may be better to try something different, to ramp things up and try to generate some more good opportunities? He eventually did make changes but they were later in the game than they might have been and some options were passed over. Is that not something we are entitled to question / comment on?

I was frustrated as anyone by Saturday's game but, as someone rightly pointed out, if we'd have drawn at Newcastle and beat Swansea there wouldn't have been as much negativity on the site. If anyone would have offered us fifth in the middle of January, hanging on the coat tails of the Champions League places we'd bit their hand off.

I know of one team who'd gladly swap places with us... Hey, hey!!!

What you charitably refer to as a "debate," is essentially a recitation of the 'shoulda... woulda... coulda' mantra.

If we're to consider every team in the world's results before me make a statement, let's all acknowledge that had Expanyol not lost to 20th placed Albacete in 04-05, then they would have finished above Villareal, and we might have beaten them in the quals.

And there were two key clues I wasn't relating my post directly to you. Firstly, the fact that I referenced several other general notions in this thread, which you yourself had not claimed... I thought therefore it would have been self evident that I was referring to other posters, wouldn't you?. I also referred to people... if I was talking to you, I would have referred to you directly, as I did previously.

And Si... be careful about constantly quoting your '5' shots on target stat. BBC (often the most reliable source on the web), list us having 8 shots on target, and 16 overall. Incidentally, the BBC also list Chelski as having 11 shots overall and 9 on target against Stoke... in a match they won 0-4. Therefore trying to disregard our efforts based on your particular shots on target stat, seems misinformed at best.

Interestingly, using your logic and BBC stats, I wonder how many Premier League clubs had more than 16 shots in their matches this weekend? I'd be surprised if it was more than 25%.

To answer your question on subs, it would depend if I thought that they would make a difference. My personal view is that, ha ha, those 8 attacking players were more likely to score a goal than Oviedo, Mucha, Hitzlsperger, Duffy, and Kennedy. If Moyes had a Hernandez, Nani, Welbeck etc on the bench I would totally agree with you. However, Everton have a first team squad of about 13 / 14 players. Once we start dipping in after that the quality isn't there. What amazes me most is that in some recent games we have got away with that point - 10 out of 15 points ain't bad for a squad hit by injuries and suspensions.

I take my point back on the message boards, I am also an offender.

The biggest issue on this thread is that some people view a draw at home when we've played well as a positive, whilst some of us view a draw at home when we've played well as a massive disappointment, and two wasted points.

The second was that we had no threat on the right without Mirallas giving us that option to try the other side with Coleman The third thing is that without Gibson, the ball delivery is too slow and too short.

These three things cost us the 3 points IMO. Neville, Hitzlsperger, Naismith, Victor aren't up to breaking down well drilled teams, and will mostly cost us 2 points.

I agree with you on Velios though...I think he has looked lively in brief flurries lately. I don't think the Moyes substitution of Neville was particularly late, but I think Anichebe, whilst deserving his start, should have come off for Velios with at least 15minutes left.

It was you who first challenged my point of view that Ossie could do with a decent back-up player as he has started to flag somewhat (see your post at 414), essentially asserting the primacy of your view over mine (but I didn't take offence because that is what debating is all about). Of course you ignored the rest of my post and took me to task for that opinion. I gave my view of of the games I had been referring to in my first post (giving reasons for my conclusions on the particular player while you just make statements about the midfield in general) and so you made out I had only seen MotD highlights and rolled that comment into a diatribe about a group of people that don't exist on this thread other than inside your head. Here it is, just as you wrote it:

"And Si... all I can say is that I was watching the Chelski game more closely than you. In the game I watched, we won the central midfield battle in general, and were the better team despite a patched-up starting 11. I wonder sometimes whether some people watch highlights on MotD, and then imagine our players are so much worse than other teams... and that we are fifth despite carrying 2/3 players a match, and with a manager who is tactically inept. Problem is, I suppose our position, and our finances contradict that... but oo well, let's forget about those. Neville is the worse player in this league, Osman is vastly overrated, Jelavic is now rubbish because of Moyes etc etc."

So where is the reference to other people, the clear distinction that the second part of the paragraph isn't about the person mentioned in the first part?

So you brush that off as nonsense, but you always need to come back on the offensive. So now the fact that I say I disagree with you, think you may have overlooked some aspects of the game, and give my reasons why (always saying it is my opinion) I am childish! Added to that I have ego issues and am absolutely pathetic.

Then I respond to someone else's comment over the fact that some good chances weren't taken (missing the point that it was because those chances were missed that we still had job to do in the last half hour of the game) and deliberately make sure it is clear that I don't know whether the figures are accurate or not, and suddenly I am a statistics freak and disregarding our efforts! Are you deliberately misreading what I have written / ignoring the context that I include?

Then you bring up Stoke versus Chelsea? Did Stoke park the bus like Swansea (can you even really compare the defensive qualities of such different teams)? And what does Chelsea's figures show except they had a much better conversion rate? Certainly doesn't prove that we didn't need to try something on Saturday to raise the number of chances we created in a game we were comfortable in. Other team's statistics are immaterial in respect of Everton v Swansea on 12th Jan 2013; the choices our manager made in the timing of substitutions and who he chose are not.

I still think Fellaini's two scuffs and Osman's free header miss were the key; if we had gone ahead in the first half hour, they would have had to open up a bit and we may have scored 3 or 4. Early misses are as bad as late misses, such as Jelly's this game and against Chelsea. sometimes worse.

Surely Vellios has shown enough to get a start somewhere, sometime? He has presence, and a canny/arsey touch. Anichebe's improved this year, but Vellios might be anything given a chance – he might be toilet, or the new Paul Warhurst.

I am also saying Nay to Naismith; I think he would struggle to get a game in the A-League here in Australia. And that's saying something...

Moyes may well cash in, however whilst the above is an improvement Moyes has to start him over others who haven't offered the same level of performance. Vellios played for 12 minutes on Saturday (not a huge amount, but not a pitance either), so did he impress you enough that he deserved more next time?

I prefer to find out than die wondering.

With respect to the stats...no context is ignored. Didn't you use stats to make an argument? Was this not your quote?

'We had something like 5 attempts on target and 8 off which is not a great deal considering their attacking ambitions were minimal. Scoring goals is generally a bit of a numbers game; the more tickets you buy the better your chance of winning the raffle'

and, didn't you also write this?

'We apparently had 5 attempts on target yesterday (and 8 off). Hardly a good number against a team who parked the bus.'

Im sorry...but it seems to me there, that you've used a stat to make a point...and I can't suggest that your point is invalid because I don't agree with your source? are you for real? there is only one person on here ignoring the context.... My point about Chelsea is simple...as is the other comments regarding the amount of shots other teams had this weekend...in the Swansea match we showed 1) attacking intent 2) did enough to win. I also have no idea when I made out you was a statistic freak... but I suppose you can criticize people for ignoring parts of your argument (which I do not feel I have done), but its fine to suggest I've taken a position which I haven't? All I have done, is simply illustrate that a point you've taken, based on statistics is erroneous, because the statistics you've used are contradicted by other news organisations, including the BBC, who I have always considered, with validity, to be the most reliable.

And i've stated on a couple of occasions now that I wasn't referring to you..I used your Osman point to move into another...it doesn't mean it was directed at you. As I've stated, again several times, I specifically referred to comments which other posters had made on this forum, none of which came from you. You never said Osman was overrated...Paul did. I was referring to his comment, and I was referring to others with my other statements. It's not my fault you haven't read this thread is it? surely I can move between points, without directing everything towards you? I would have thought that by referring to other people's points, rather than yours, it would have been self-evident!!

Si...you manner of constructing an argument is strange. You attack people for misreading..but do so yourself. For instance, not in relation to our argument, Ian stated: 'Moyes finished the game with 8 attack minded players on the park on Saturday'

I don't think that is a comment to disagree with..Baines and Osman are attacking minded, as opposed to more defensively minded full backs. Osman/Fellaini/Jelavic/Naismith/Pienaar and Velios are also attacking minded.

But your retort to Ian was:

'Ian, surely all footballers are attack-minded to a degree? Even goalkeepers like to release the ball to people breaking quickly and will join the attack at desperate times. Likewise, all are defensively-minded to a degree as well. The object is to score more / concede less than others. The distinction you are floundering around is their ability / comfort doing either attacking or defending.'

So you take a person reasonable argument and transform it bizzarely... you suggest goalkeepers are attacking minded to a degree...a bizzare proposition if one is to put any real emphasis on degree. So you transform a perfectly reasonable comment, which makes reference to 'attack-minded' not only purely attacking, and then use it to give a lecture which ignores the perfectly reasonable fundamental of the point in the first place.

And you moan about other people? Are you and Ciaran brothers? because your similarities are almost uncanny...

I'm entirely with you btw Ian. Teams are constructed on the basis of attack minded or defensive minded players. If a team has two defensive full backs, who are not given license to attack, they can play in a different fashion. Chelski under Mourinho for instance, kept their defensive minded players constrained, and attacked with the front four (or so). Recently, under Moyes, we've employed two attacking full backs in Baines and Coleman... in doing so, we give ourselves somewhat of a defensive problem, which necessitates at least one holding midfield, to protect against the counter attacking/break. After the 69th minute, we swapped our primary defensively minded midfield, Neville, for an attack midfielder, despite a Swansea team who have significant counter-attacking ability. I don't see taking Neville off in the 69th minute is an issue...not when the alternative, widely been touted, is Hitz...who has looked off the pace in practically every match ive seen him in. If Moyes had taken Neville off in the last 10...it would have been late. But he didn't...he took him off, with 25minutes (Given an expectation of 4mins injury time) to go.

Peter - I like him as well. I wish he'd score a couple as he seems a mobile foil for jelavic.

Well that wasn't really what he was saying was it? Here's what he said:

"In regard to recent performances all I can say is that my opinion in you weren't watching the majority of the Chelsea game particularly closely because he was dispossessed far too easily and simply bypassed or run past pretty much at will."

So he makes it clear that it is his opinion and then gives you examples as to why he doesn't think you were watching the game particularly closely. That seems a pretty fair way of making an argument to me.

The starting line-ups and formations of both teams reflected a plan especially made for their opponents on the day.

Everton’s 4-4-1-1 vs. Swansea’s 4-2-3-1

Swansea manager Michael Laudrup deployed Nathan Dyer as the centre forward in a bid to use his pace to implement the team’s counter-attacking ploy, while the in-form Michu played in what he claims is his preferred position just behind the striker. Dwight Tiendalli started at right-back for The Swans but Angel Rangel, who is the Welsh side’s first-choice right-back, was deployed on the right side of midfield to counter the lethal pairing of Steven Pienaar and Leighton Baines on Everton’s left.

In the absence of Darren Gibson, Moyes fielded Phil Neville (like he did against Newcastle) instead of Thomas Hitzlsperger (who started against Chelsea) to lend a bit of industry to Everton’s central midfield against a side known for its incisive passing. Moyes also chose to use Victor Anichebe over both Steven Naismith and Bryan Oviedo on the right flank, suggesting that an emphasis was placed on exploiting Swansea’s aerial problems from set-pieces and open play.

The match was an open affair with neither side choosing to really press the opposition without the ball. While it was a typical Everton performance, Swansea’s was a highly uncharacteristic one – extremely defensive, defending very deep, ineffective in possession and no pressing high up the pitch.

As a result, Everton were allowed to make a massive 69.7% of their passes in the attacking half and 38.4% in the final third. Everton centre-back Phil Jagielka was allowed time and space to carry the ball forward. He attempted the most number of passes in the match (78) with an accuracy of 87%. More tellingly, 38 of those were made in the attacking half and 19 were made in the final third, which are huge numbers for a central defender.

The lack of pressing also meant that the away side did not win possession back in their attacking third even once in the match. They relied solely on counter-attacks and gambled on quick and incisive passing to produce a goal, and came close when Michu’s chip over Tim Howard struck the bar – a move that consisted of only three quick passes from back to front.

Swansea have averaged 75% passing accuracy in the attacking half this season, but were only a lowly 67% in this game due to the lack of numbers they had going forward. This, in turn, affected their ability to create chances – only 4 in comparison to Everton’s 16 chances.

When Laudrup set his stall out to defend deep, he was essentially gambling on the competence of his defenders, especially his two centre-backs. In reality though, it was Everton’s incompetence in front of goal that allowed Swansea to keep a clean sheet. Swansea City worked overtime to fend Everton off, making 50 clearances – exactly twice as many as the home side.

Although centre-backs Ashley Williams and Chico Flores made 32 clearances between them and the latter was arguably Swansea’s best player, they did ride their luck. Everton were completely dominant in the air. The home side won a massive 71% of their aerial duels in the match and won 65% of aerial duels when competing directly with Swansea’s defensive four. The home team should’ve scored at least one, if not two, goals. Gilt-edged chances were missed by Nikica Jelavic, Leon Osman and Sylvain Distin, and both Jelavic and Anichebe also saw their headers cleared off the line.

It is well-documented that the majority of Everton’s attacks come down the left flank. Swansea’s two right-backs (one of them placed as a right winger) certainly did keep Baines – the most prolific creator of chances in the league – relatively quiet. Everton responded to this ploy by increasing numbers on the left wing with Nikica Jelavic and Marouane Fellaini often overloading that flank in an attempt to free up Baines.

Such is the quality and importance of the English left-back though, that he did manage to create 7 of Everton’s 16 chances (3 from open play) but his trademark lung-busting runs into the penalty box were missing since he was well tracked throughout the game.

David Moyes’s side has always been lopsided in attack, favouring the left more than the right due to the difference in quality of players on either flank. But with the curious selection of Anichebe on the right wing and his natural habit of drifting naturally into the centre, right-back Seamus Coleman was offered little to no support in attack. Moyes did address this situation but perhaps too late in the game.

Steven Naismith was introduced into the game in place of Phil Neville with twenty minutes left on the clock, which meant Anichebe joined Jelavic upfront and Fellaini dropped into centre midfield alongside Osman. The rest of the substitutes were like for like swaps except for when Jonathan De Guzman replaced Nathan Dyer to shore up the away side’s midfield, which meant Michu shifted further forward.

It wasn’t the pretty performance that we have been accustomed to seeing from the Welsh club, but it has now been effective in two tough away matches – Stamford Bridge being the first. “For two games now, Wednesday and today, we didn’t have the ball as much as we are used to and still we performed so well.” It seems Michael Laudrup is doing well in inculcating pragmatism into his side. And as long as they don’t forget their idealistic principles, it is certainly an effective weapon to possess.

The reason I referenced 'statistics' was simply to make the point that I did not actually think it was a great number. I used the terms 'apparently' and 'something like' because I fully understand that these figures often vary depending on the source, but it was 5 on target or if it was 8 it wasn't enough against a team that 'parked the bus', nor a reason for not chucking on the cavalry earlier when it was still 0-0.

There is no such thing as having done enough to win, the actual result is all that really counts. What is required to win varies from game to game, minute to minute even, and if you don't win then you didn't do enough. There is some cold comfort if you did everything you could, which is actually what people are discussing.

As for Ian's musings on what constitutes an attack-minded / attacking player (why you wouldn't prefer to have 11 on the pitch all the time, rather than just in the 'attacking' positions is beyond me) obviously Jags really does think he is just trying to reach row Z with those balls he launches forward, and Pip was practicing tackling and passing back to the goalkeeper when he nicked the ball off Seamus in their penalty area. Think I will stick with my earlier comment on this subject - "Attack-minded but not very good is not the same as attack-minded and decent."

This doesn't support your view either:-

Everton centre-back Phil Jagielka was allowed time and space to carry the ball forward. He attempted the most number of passes in the match (78) with an accuracy of 87%. More tellingly, 38 of those were made in the attacking half and 19 were made in the final third, which are huge numbers for a central defender.

87% is up there midfield stats, so how does that equate to lumping it into row z?

My point (wholly consistent with what I have posted previously) is that all players on the pitch have dual roles and are expected to both attack and defend as required. It is differences in ability that determine how effective they are to a large extent.

The number of attacking / attack-minded players (or however you want to define them) is immaterial if the players are not good enough, playing in a position that does not suit them, or if the overall tactics are ineffective.

What those statistics you present appear to show clearly is how little threat Swansea offered all game. That shows that Phil Neville could have easily been replaced much earlier (half-time for instance) and the cavalier Bryan Oviedo rather than industrious-but-ineffective Naismith would have been a minor gamble to boot. You think the manager was adequately adventurous; some of us think he shied away from really 'going for it'.

I thought the article above was spot on when it said that Swansea got the clean sheet from our incompetence in front of goal by us. That's my opinion.

I think subbing Neville at half time at 0 - 0 is harsh, although as posted above, Naismith, Neville, hitzsberger, are all pretty average to me, the 2 of clubs in Moyes poker hand for CL. I do like Oviedo, he looks to be a good understudy to baines. I has seen Moyes try pienaar on the right and Oviedo on the left, and vice versa in a game before Christmas and it didn't really work for me. I would also agree that he would go above Naismith in the pecking order following another poor display on the right. My prediction of some goals ghosting ala Cahill haven't happened.

In my opinion you need either skill or pace (preferably both) to play on the flanks. Naismith hasn't got either and looks like a fish out of water on the right.

Why would subbing Neville have been harsh? It is not meant as a reflection on him, more on the fact that Swansea's tactics meant he wasn't needed to play the holding midfield role, no-one was. It was clear to see watching the game, and the evidence is in those statistics you gave, that Jags was able to advance into the midfield areas pretty much unopposed. The defence didn't need someone mopping up in front of them. That doesn't mean you necessarily vacate the space completely, but it does mean you can gamble on someone with more attacking ability / threat than Phil Neville.

Likewise, rather than take a half-step towards presenting more threat by using Naismith, why not take the full one and ask Oviedo to run his little legs off on the right? Swansea had overloaded the left, so there should have been room on the opposite side for two quick players to operate in. If we had at least tried to move the ball down the right more often and get someone to the bye-line it might at least have loosened the grip they had on Baines and Pienaar on the left.

Naismith has shown he is not a winger so he was never the man for this job. Oviedo has shown some proficiency in working a wing even if that has mainly been on the left.

You call them crackpot comments, but to me people are just comparing what DM did on Saturday to what he could have done, and in some cases the unused alternative appears to have a lot of potential merit.

Moyes obviously didn't change it at half time, as he felt we were on top. So why risk that momentum, and get caught by a team set up for the counter. After 20 odd minutes, he recognised something else needed to be tried. We traditionally score a lot of goals in the last quarter, but this time it didn't work. As I say I agree that Naismith has had his chance. I expected that he'd poach some goals, he hasn't and his performances have been gradually been more disappointing.

We have and will win games when Moyes gets things wrong just have we have lost when he's got everything right. Overall I think Moyes gets results even though I hate him... but continuing to pick Naismith and a few other decisions are indefensible.

Is it so hard to imagine that DM could go to him at half-time and say "Phil, I think you are surplus to requirements in this one so I am going to let you sit out the second half. Any problems with that?" "No problems boss. You know I'd love to play every minute of every game, but I've hardly had anything to do so far and if you feel you want to try something else that's fine by me." We are talking about a highly paid manager and his team of professionals (hand-picked and honed by Moyes to be team-players) aren't we?

Naismith may eventually find form and his niche, but it is hard to see how he was considered to be the right man for the job on Saturday.