Beating the ball against a brick wall

, 12 January, 222comments  |  Jump to most recent
Everton 0 - 0 Swansea City
A decent looking team took on Swansea City at Goodison Park, with Jelavic and Anichebe coming close in the first half that saw the Blues pressing and probing with intent. They failed to convert a few clear chances, though, as the red shirted visitors constructed a brick-wall defence that, together with goalkeeper Vorm, denied Everton anything from the game — except for a very rare clean sheet.

Jelavic shot bounced narrowly wide after he look to connect well with Pienaar's excellent delivery.

Michu made a lovely strike to try an audacious lob from a narrow angle and Howard got a vital touch to send it onto the bar.

Then Coleman did really well to set up Fellaini whose first-time shot was straight at Vorm. Pienaar was lucky to win a good free-kick that Baines swung in but Osman headed it wide with the goal gaping.

A variant corner taken short produced a difficult chance for Jagielka, falling backwards to head it out at the far post. As Swansea attacked, Distin was solid to defend away after a good move down the Everton right just before the break.

Everton came out in determined fashion, Neville stealing the ball off Coleman's toe to fire in on Vorm. Everton continued to build good ground attacks intermixed with deep aerial balls for Fellaini to knock down but found it hard getting deep enough into the Swansea area, although Distin did have a good opportunity with a header that went over the bar, while the constant fear of a swift Swansea counter remained ever-present, Hernandez stinging Howard's gloves with one shot.

After one really good spell of build-up play Jelavic tried a bicycle kick but missed it completely. A big shout for a penalty when Jelavic bounced off Williams going for a difficult cross, but it was nothing. Michu was booked before Jelavic knocked down to Fellaini on the near post who couldn't get his feet to the ball before Williams cleverly kicked it away from him.

Moyes eventually decided to change things wthe introduction of Naismith in place of the dreadful Phil Neville as Everton attacks were continuously thwarted by the stalwart Swansea defence. This meant Fellaini playing a little deeper, and providing less of a target for high balls.

Pienaar caught De Guzman on his ankle, but escaped any punishment. A nice corner in from Baines was headed over by Jagielka when it looked easier to score.

Baines picked up a yellow card when Rangel illegally backed into him! He then got involved with Rangel, as Graham replaced Michiu. Moyes decided to bring on Vellios for Anichebe with less than 10 mins left.

Vorm was booked for presumably time-wasting after Fellaini powered in a header at the far post off a great Pienaar cross but the Belgian had pushed aside a defender to reach the ball.

Vellios created a golden chance for Jelavic near the end but he scooped it over instead of under the bar with an otherwise brilliant first-time shot as the game ended with 4 mins of added time.

Everton: Howard; Baines, Jagielka, Jelavic, Distin, Neville (69' Naismith), Osman, Pienaar, Coleman, Fellaini, Anichebe (83' Vellios) (Subs: Mucha, Oviedo, Hitzlsperger, Kennedy, Duffy).

Swansea City: Vorm Y:87', Williams, Dyer (57' De Guzman), Hernadez Y:59' (73' Routledge) Michu (81' Graham)

Quotes or other material sourced from ToffeeWeb Match Reports



Reader Comments (222)

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Nick Entwistle
1 Posted 12/01/2013 at 16:53:45
What's the going rate for a barn door?
Robin Cannon
2 Posted 12/01/2013 at 16:57:40
No doubt there'll be a lot of reaction about how we were crap and negative, but although we missed a couple of chances, that was in fairness more down to a high quality defensive performance from Swansea.

Yes, we lack a little bit of extra quality in the box, but in general we continued to play patiently and do the right things, didn't resort to hoofing the ball into the box, and dominated the game. Swansea are excellent at this kind of thing; it's exactly how they played at Chelsea in midweek (except they were more incisive on the break).

John Nelson
3 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:03:31
Well said Robin. If anything it is mark of respect that Swansea changed their footballing ways to simply just defend all game.

Gutted not to win at home obviously but certainly not disgraceful that we never won. Also thank fuck we kept a clean sheet for once.

Roman Sidey
4 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:15:31
Very fair Robin, but there comes a time when hoofing it into the box is somewhat needed. We were actually winning headers in the box, just not getting those headers on target or to feet. The more you do something the greater your chance of success.

I'm not advocating hoofball as our main strategy – I remember those days – but with five minutes to go, with a few talls on the field, put it in there.

This is another game we should have won, to add to an ever growing list of disappointments.

Al Reddish
5 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:15:39
A game where we missed Mirallas's cleverness and where we also missed anything from a pregnant sow to a traffic cone in the middle to replace the totally useless (today at least) Neville.
Jim Knightley
6 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:19:21
We can't win every game... this is disappointing, because we were at home, but Swansea are a very good side. This doesn't feel like the Newcastle draw, or the Norwich, or several other similar results... just annoying, as we can't afford to drop behind our rivals for fourth. On the plus side though, Spurs dropped points at QPR.

Weirdly enough, we now have the joint fifth best defence in the division, after West Ham lost by 3. We've only conceded 2 less than Stoke now...

We need investment, as we all know. We must be able to change a gameplan which isn't working... I suppose, like Swansea, that we have a great core, but no gamechangers on the bench. That may well be the difference between fourth and sixth, when the season is over.

Sam Fitzsimmons
7 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:00:07
Moyes must think he's suffering from déjà vu with a striker who's lost his mojo and limited options to draw from.

Does he rest (drop) Jelavic.and give Vellios and Anichebe a run out for a couple of games? If so, what impact would that have on Jelavic's already fragile confidence?


Does he persist and hope that Jelavic plays himself back in to form, which I think we've all been waiting for this season?

I thought Naismith was a bizarre substitution for Neville – a journeyman for a journeyman, at least Hitzlsperger can see a pass and has a shot about him.

Who'd be a Premier League manager?

Simon Harris
8 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:18:17
I disagree Robin, there is a time and place for the long ball and I wish we had got the ball in the mixer more especially 2nd half.

Fair play to Swansea, they nullified Baines and Pienaar and we ran out of ideas late on.

Not too disappointed as we dominated large parts of the game... just couldn't work their keeper and get that crucial goal.

Roman Sidey
9 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:24:10
This is not a loaded question, but if someone could explain which position the players were in after the subs it would help my understanding a bit. For instance, did Fellaini drop back or go wide?
Clive Lewis
10 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:25:01
Not enough quality in the squad; no quality alternatives to Neville and Anichebe. Yes, Swansea defended well but they had better quality alternatives. Their team is not as good as ours but they don't seem to have as many donkeys as us.
Fraser Auld
11 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:00:24
Depressing stuff. A struggle to pick anyone for MotM but think I'd go with Coleman, he looked like he was arsed at least and made a few good runs and crosses.

Neville at CM was a bad mistake today, he was a passenger and contributed nothing whatsoever. When a team comes to Goodison and just sits in, his deficiencies are painfully exposed. He gave the ball away needlessly a ridiculous amount of times in the first half and when he does find a man, it's a three-yard sideways pass, he constantly puts other players under pressure by giving them the ball in tight situations mainly because he panics and wants rid of the ball as soon as. His movement is also poor; he passes it and then just stands there thinking his job is done. If Ross Barkley had played like Neville in the first half, I shudder to think what Moyes would have said to him at half time! I honestly think Neville needs to take a good long look at himself and ask what he is contributing enough to be in the first team... Rant over.

Separately, I feared when I saw the team news that Plan A would be to hit the big hoof up to Fella, Jelly and Vic and if that didn't work then Plan B would be to hit the even bigger hoof up to Vic, Fella and Jelly... and so it proved to be.

We need Kevin Mirallas back big time; we're too reliant on Baines & Pienaar for guile and craft – if the other team stops them... well, then we end up like we did today. When is he back?

Roman Sidey
12 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:27:01
Sam, do you not think starting Vellios and Jelavic could be worth a shot? They seem to work well together for eight minutes here and there, so why not try for a start?
John Ford
13 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:24:10
Lack of investment has been and still is the core of the problem; look at our subs bench, can it be any clearer?

We were totally dominant today and should have won. Fellaini put their midfield completely out of action. Hugely disappointing.

Ian Bennett
14 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:28:51
Gutted to not close the gap on Spurs. They play Man Utd next week, and we're at Saints, so let's make it count next week.
Sam Fitzsimmons
15 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:29:57
Roman, definitely worth mixing it up with Jelavic and Vellios. Anichebe always seems to deliver when he comes on as sub. Perhaps when Mirallas comes back, we'll have the answer.
Sam Hoare
16 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:34:00
Hmmm... Not a dreadful result but certainly a poor one.

We had enough chances and half chances to win fairly comfortably and not taking them is what has us in 5th (soon to be 6th) rather than 3rd or 4th. Very, very frustrating but fair play to Swansea who did defend very well. A minor plus point... our first clean sheet in about 12 games?

Clive Lewis
17 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:35:24
We desperately need to strengthen the midfield and up front Neville is 36 soon and only very average, making short passes here and there and breaking up play a bit, he was playing from the start only to be replaced by Naismith!

Anichebe, his pace and dribbling ability is terrible! Having said that, he is getting better with his finishing. Not good enough to unlock difficult defenses though.

Jay Harris
18 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:37:12
Although we had all the pressure we very rarely got behind their defence on the flanks and IMO relied too much on hoofing it to Felli,Jelly and Belly(Vic).

I think it would have been useful to try the Hammer as we were painfully short of long distance efforts.

Christopher Kelly
20 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:42:14
We can't keep saying "we can't win every game"??!!

We have dropped too many points this season to inferior opponents to say this anymore... Again, I don't know what these fools do during the week but the competence in the final 1/3 is shocking. Osmans open header at the end of the first half was scary bad - as in, "this man gets paid to play this game??" Jags' miss was shocking and embarrassing (again)... the flow of the team in the middle of the park is great and really uplifting. But the final third is where you make your hay and you either get left in the middle of the table or you bury your chances and come in with a chance at glory at the end

Christopher Kelly
21 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:50:19
Neville was never that great when he was 25, why do people think/expect him to improve?? He's not an expensive French cheese.
Phil Roberts
22 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:49:31
We now need to improve on last year's second half to get into Europe, never mind Champions' League

After this result, Liverpool and us match the same results as last year and we finish 7th on Goal Diff.

Forget the Champions' League.

Michael Kenrick
23 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:52:22
Chris, you are so right: that stupid comment is right up there along the really annoying "be careful what you wish for".

If we really want to do anything meaningful this season, it is exactly games like this that we MUST win. The shocking performance of Neville has been highlighted with painful accuracy by Fraser Auld, and the substitutions by Moyes if anything reduced rather than increased the pressure being applied on their goal.

Yes, 16 shots, 8 on target, one of those days perhaps... but there have been far too many of 'those days' this season for it not to have at least an element of a systemic problem, and the limited inventiveness of our basic attacking moves is what I would question.

Clarence Yurcan
24 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:55:20
Truly, fate is conspiring against Everton. The day starts off beautifully, with Spurs drawing at QPR, perfect opportunity and we can't score one stinking goal. So many missed opportunities this year... by a matter of inches... when will it finally be our time!?
Dave White
25 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:54:31
@ 243 'Neville's not an expensive French cheese'

Ha ha love it!

He's does invariably stink mind : )

Christopher Kelly
26 Posted 12/01/2013 at 17:59:21
The irony is appalling. Moyes will not drop the Neville's or the Osman's or the Vic's of this world no matter how poorly they play. Even if they just need a rest... BUT, if a youngster makes a mistake, he's off and sent to the farm...We've all seen this...

I know Coleman is limited but to me Moyes is doing something that he rarely does by giving youth a repeated chance to succeed despite some troubles... And I think we can all see he's not a world beater but by sticking with him, that might just give the lad the confidence to continue to improve his craft and become a valuable asset for us.

Tony Marsh
27 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:05:25
It's back to the Old Moyes for sure. Best striker we have had at the club for years now looking as bad as all the rest have done under the guidance of Moyes. Why has Jelavic been converted to Andy Johnson or Yakubu stuck out on the right wing?

When was the last time we battered a Premier League side either home or away? I can't remember the last time we smashed an inferior side at Goodison.

It's ten plus years of Moyes now and we are doing and playing exactly the same way. Nothing new to learn from DM, I'm afraid to say. Players don't flourish unless they can graft their balls off for 90 minutes.

What's with the 7 mins for Vellios again? I'm sorry to say it's all gone way too stale and every game is just a carbon copy of the last. Sometimes we nick it; some times we don't.

What ever happened to smashing fuck out of a side every now and again? It's all so painful and labourious to watch. Needs freshening up badly — and not just with players. Maybe Moyes needs a new Number 2 because this is dire.

Trevor Lynes
28 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:08:54
Money is required to bolster up the squad otherwise we will be relying upon other teams failing. This is a really good first eleven when all are fit. Mirallas and Gibson are missing and we do not have adequate replacements for them.

Other top 4 teams have much stronger benches than we do and until we get a couple of REAL QUALITY players in the squad we will struggle. Spurs have Defoe, Adebayor and Dempsey. Man Utd have Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Wellbeck. Man City have Aguero, Tevez, Dzecko and Balotelli. Chelsea have Torres and Demba Ba...

All the above teams have midfield players who chip in with goals. Realistically only Arsenal are in the same boat as us for strikers. We need another striker and really good midfield creator plus someone to provide competition for Howard.

Ben Jones
29 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:16:54
I think the substitution actually hindered us more than anything.

It's the standard one to do when trying to win the game, taking the holding mid, put Fellaini back then put Naismith on so Anichebe can go up front.

But then the ball wouldnt stick to us further up the field, even though Fellaini did a good job further back. Naismith was completely ineffective (again!) and my patience is running out a bit with him. Was Oviedo on the bench? Why didnt he come on?!

It shows to me that the squad is gettng a bit weak, we need another attacking player desperately. Either a striker, winger or even get Mirallas, I don't really care, we need to do something. Other than Anichebe, Oviedo and to an extent Vellios, we don't really have anything positive attacking wise.

Naismith is not the answer, especially on the wing, can maybe do a job in the middle, but to persist on him playing in the right is doing anybody any good.

But positives is we controlled the game pretty much. And Fellaini and Coleman played really well. I just hope Moyes can do something in the transfer window to reinvigerate the squad in the final third.

Ian Bennett
30 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:22:28
Trevor - I agree we need another striker, and if money is tight I'd take Darren bent on loan. It would be a complete gamble, but he could be the difference to fire us into Champions League. Goals win games and we need more in the 2nd had if the season.
Patrick Murphy
31 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:12:57
Well another 2 points go out of the window. I watched up until Naismith came on and switched off. What we need is an Andy Gray or Peter Reid character, someone who insists on winning a game rather than settling for not losing.

Don't get me wrong — I don't for one minute think we didn't try to win the game, but it was all huff and puff and very little in the way of artistry. I know Mirallas is missed but come on — how many games has he taken part in?

Moyes has never really found an answer to packed defensive formations and to be fair he doesn't have that magic player who can spring a surprise in and around the area.

How come every goalscorer we get seems to start off like a house on fire... and then, slowly but surely, his confidence and attitude disappear before our very eyes. I would send Jelavic on holiday for a week and 'rest' him for the Southampton game, because to continually play him is not doing him or the team any good at all.

Eight at home and eight away with games at OT, Emirates, Stamford Bridge and Anfield means we can ill-afford these draws at home... To get 30+ points from those last 16 games is going to be a tall order, unless we buy a striker!

Roman Sidey
32 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:12:35
Chris, I agree with you on a lot of points, but how is 24 years old still youth?
Ben Jones
33 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:26:35
Patrick,

I think that magic player is injured, I cant imagine how we would be doing if Mirallas was fit all season.

Paul David
34 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:23:02
There can't be anyone left that can defend Neville? Yet another 90 mins were he failed to win back possession. Goodison today was as quiet as it's ever been, even Neville must have heard the loud moans of disgust every time he fucked up.

Anichebe was back to normal today. When the ball was on the left, he would stay out wide right and when the ball was on the right, he would come into the middle. Someone needs to tell the talentless, fat, lazy bastard it's suppose to be the other way round.

I was pleased with Coleman, he was the only player who looked interested today.

Patrick Murphy
35 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:33:33
I understand what you're saying Ben, but he can only be a magic player if he is out there on the pitch.
Ben Jones
36 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:34:37
Very true Patrick.

I hope Moyes can pull it off though. I mean he did with Drenthe, so hopefully we can do it again (a player with the ability of Drenthe, NOT THE ATTITUDE)

I don't wanna get Jimmy back talking about Drenthe again

Roman Sidey
37 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:44:02
Paul David, like I said on the forum thread, I'm not going to defend Neville, and not many people would have predicted that we would do worse if he got subbed, but we did.
Michael Kenrick
38 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:26:07
I get fed up of reading this continuous bellyaching about 'lack of resources'. We have the squad we have. That's it. Live with it!

Add to that this continuous playstation dreaming about Fantasy Football nonsense of bringing in this player or that in the holy grail for so many fans — the wondrous Transfer Window... GET REAL!!! It's not going to happen!!!

On any given day, we have the players who are available: they have to perform to the peak of their ability – both individually and as a team — and I firmly believe getting them to do that is the primary function of the manager. That's what they should be working on all week; that's what we should be seeing on the field.

Of course they are not going to achieve it every week, but at least the signs should be there that they are up for it, and that manager has the plans in place and has flexibility to adopt those plans to break down even the most obdurate of defences.

Instead, what we have is the perennial excuse-making for a manager who is NOT making the best use of the resources he has acquired. There are many examples you can point to but for me this was exemplified this week by two crucial things: sending Barkley out instead of grooming him where he needs to be playing — in the Premier League (although my fear now is the damage is done and we have another Vaughan/Rodwell/Baxter clone on our hands). And secondly, not hauling Neville off at the first opportunity when it was clear in the first half that he was having a total nightmare.

It's crucial decisions like this, and Moyes's limited imagination and ultra cautious nature, that will continue to limit what he can achieve at Everton with the potential inherent in the squad he has assembled.

Andy Meighan
39 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:38:55
Shit game but Swansea got what they came for; they were very good defensively and you can see how they've got results. Although, the Michu effort aside, Howard could have sat on a deck-chair all afternoon, we just couldn't create enough to be fair...

And how anyone can say Fellaini dominated their midfield is beyond me — he was crap! His touch for a so-called world class player is atrocious! I wouldn't bother one bit if someone came in for him.

Can someone please tell me what the fuck that substitution was about?!? Going for a win, and he brings a midfielder off for another midfielder... can't this manager see what we all see — that Naismith is rubbish??? He's actually got worse as the season has got on.

And then, to add insult to injury, he brings a striker on with 8 minutes left and continues to play the same way! Fucking baffling... but then that's been typical of Moyes's reign.

All-in-all, a bad day at the office.

Paul David
40 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:51:26
Roman

Is that some kind of back handed compliment to Neville? If he had been subbed for anyone other than the awful Naismith there would have been an improvement.

Roman Sidey
41 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:49:50
Spot on, Michael. I think this is a game that Moyes has to take the blame for. 0-0 at half-time of a home game means that things aren't going to plan (unless it's a very shitty plan), and changes took 30 minutes of the second half to come.
Roman Sidey
42 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:57:04
Paul, I am not trying to compliment Neville. Just saying that the sub that came in for him was worse, which I didn't think possible.
Ste Traverse
43 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:57:14
I don't think their keeper had a save to make in the second half. We didn't deserve the 3 points.

Steven Naismith. Why Moyes, why? You don't put this bloke on when you are desperate for a goal.

His decision making and awareness get worse every game he plays.

Paul David
44 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:01:12
Roman

Well I agree with you there, I really can't believe how bad Naismith is. From what I've seem from him this season he is well on the way to being the worst Everton player I've ever seen.

Roman Sidey
45 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:12:50
Exactly, and I find it hard to believe that this time last season McFadden wasn't showing more promise than him. Ouch... that just hurt my brain.
Ian Smitham
46 Posted 12/01/2013 at 18:50:16
Just got in from a cold cold Goodison with not too much to cheer me up. Look forward to seeing Kens observations, mine are that the great footballing side I understand that Swansea are, we're not the team I saw today, TH was solid today in his new yellow gear, SC continues to improve, Jags, as someone above said, it was back to the bad old days of hoofball, PIP needs to have a long rest, the Bainaar axis was well worked out by them, Victor is an enigma, but he has got something to contribute, just not sure what.

Jelly has changed how he plays, he certainly works hard and also seems to be diving less. As stated above, he is class but just not getting results now, but I firmly believe class will prevail, and until it does emerge, as long as he puts a shift in then I will not complain. Same with Peanut who has been tireless in the past month.

Probably points missed today, but they are no mugs, with the best defensive record over the past month, we just need to regroup and trust that some player trading in the next two weeks helps us out. Cheers, Ian

Michael Kenrick
47 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:21:41
Some astounding comments just reported by Mark Pougatch on 606 re Jelavic.

Reportedly... he heard from people AT EVERTON that they doubted Jelavic could replicate the performance he had shown last term through a whole season, and continue to produce his impressive goal return. Also, that they would consider letting him go if they got a good offer for him... and all this was LAST SUMMER!

Talk about incomprehensible negativity, from INSIDE the club. And they wonder now why he is not performing!!! This utter shit just blows my mind...

Ian Allaker
48 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:24:16
I can't find much fault in what Moyes did today, I agreed with his selection and his substitutions. I would have liked him to make the changes sooner but, apart from that, there wasn't much else he could do, no real option that could realistically change the game. Swansea parked the bus today, they defended well and nullified our left side, so fair play to the manager.

We dominated the game from start to finish but just didn't have enough quality to be the difference and win the game. We needed a player with the quality of RVP or Suarez as much as I hate the guy. Let's not forget, Swansea have just beat Chelsea 2 - 0, they are a good side but we had them crammed on the edge of their box for most of the game.

As for Naismith, I didn't think he was as bad as people are making out, apart from one atrocious pass in their box. I thought he made more of an impact than Neville while he was on the field. Neville is only worth playing when we need some defensive cover but Swansea had no intention of putting any attack together so he had nothing to do.

Paul Wainwright
49 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:37:09
Paul David,

You must have forgotten Nyarko and Brett Angel — god, he's bad but not quite that bad!!

Paul David
50 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:33:58
I think the real Jelavic isn't as good as the one we seen last season but a bit better than the one we're seeing now. He is crap outside the box but comes alive in it, for this reason I don't understand why Moyes doesn't order him to stop drifting out wide. Especially as we only ever play with one up front, he should stay in the middle and only concentrate on getting on the end of things.
Peter Cummings
51 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:29:37
Although very annoying to lose another couple of points, in truth it was all we deserved from a fairly lethargic display. Until Jeli can get his act together and we can penetrate defensive tactics, we will continue to struggle.

I thought Felli was too busy trying to keep away from confrontation too much but he was still our most creative player. For some reason, after a good attacking first 45, Coleman spent most the second half defending against a powder-puff Swans front line.

No doubt about it: Swansea have put a good squad together and earned their point the hard way.

Paul David
52 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:40:12
Ian

What about bringing on Oviedo on instead of Naismith, Oviedo has shown promise in his brief time on the pitch while Naismith has shown nothing despite playing in nearly every game. Plus it might have seen Pienaar play better if he was on the right as Swansea marked him and Baines out the game.

Ian Smitham
53 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:41:06
MK, who are these people? Are they saying the same similar speculative stuff about all the players we hear all season? For 606 to retain any credibility, we need names of who was saying this stuff , some bod who has enjoyed a good lunch with a drop too many wines, or a credible representative of the club.
Phil Sammon
54 Posted 12/01/2013 at 19:23:13
Just got home from the game and it seems most people agree on what went wrong.

I had no complaints with the starting line-up really. We could have had a few goals in the first half. My only annoyance came with Moyes tactics in the second half. 10 minutes in and it was clear (if it wasn't already) that Swansea came for a point and werent interested in scoring goals. Therefore Neville becomes redundant. All he served to do was break up our play better than Swansea themselves could muster.

Surely, SURELY Hitzlsperger should have come on as at least he can pick out a pass.

I've stuck up for Naismith in the past and argued he's a decent player. I thought he looked good in pre-season. Well, I was wrong, he's terrible. No pace, can't dribble, and he hits his passes harder than his shots. I'd have got Kennedy on instead. He's a lad who deserves a chance in my opinion. Consistantly good for the ressies and bags of talent. And importantly, he just can't be any worse!

Cant really have a go at anyone else. Jelavic was feeding off scraps. Baines wasnt great, his set pieces were poor, but you can't have a go at such a consistent player. Coleman was good, probably my MOTM.

All in all, a bit disappointed with 0-0 but I didnt expect Swansea to approach the game like that. That was as negative as I've seen anyone set up all season. However if Arsenal lose tomorrow, with WBA losing and Spurs drawing its not been too damaging a result.

Also, Phil Dowd is a knob. Such an aggressive referee who loves the limelight. And 4 minutes added time??? 5 bookings and 5 subs in the second half - that's 5 minutes straight away

Phil Walling
55 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:03:35
Now Jelavic has been transformed into Andrew Johnson, and can no longer hit the proverbial barn door, we shall almost certainly struggle to claim 6/7th position over our local rivals. All the pretty football in the world will win nowt if Moyes insists on his strikers putting work rate before goals. But we all know that, don`t we... and for sure not one of us is on £4Million a year, I bet!
Jim Knightley
56 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:19:25
Phil Wailling... are you for real? We are fourth, three points off third... but because of a 0-0 draw with Swansea, we are now going to struggle to finish above Liverpool? How do you cope with football if you will react so sensationally to form changes?

With respect to Jelavic, I'm entirely with Paul. We were treated with a superb run of form post-Jan last season...just as Newcastle were with Cisse. But Jelavic is out of form atm, and getting frustrated. It's not Moyes's instructions, it is just what happens sometimes. He is still, imo, the best striker we've had at this club, and I fancy him to be a 14/15 goal a season man for several seasons.

Let's not overreact.

Nick Entwistle
57 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:20:25
Jelavic got a number of chances in the box today Phil - and ballooned the best one over.

If he's also setting up others to compliment your desired one dimensional version of the man, is this not a good thing or do you not think he has that ability?

There was always more to him than his one-touch record, which is focused on too much if it dismisses his all round ability.

Steve Cotton
58 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:23:30
Was Osman playing???? Perhaps this England stuff has gone to his head...

Jelavic needs 3 weeks out to touch his inner self and Naismith needs selling while other teams don't realise he is poor to average at best.

Coleman should have been moved to right wing and Vellios on with 30 mins to go. We could all see it was a nil-nil result after about 10 minutes...

Dave Lynch
59 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:27:00
For me, what's come out of this is, again, Moyes's tactical awareness is shown up for what it is: limited and predictable. I feared the worst when he employed Round, a serial loser who has been relegated with every other club he has been involved with.

Also, how many strikers is he going to fuck up??? He is at it again with Jella, turning him into a channel-running headless chicken, neither of which he will ever be. What he is, is a clinic alone touch finisher, in and around the box.

Nick Entwistle
60 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:34:55
Admittedly his tactical awareness was shown up, Dave. Dominating possession so that Swansea park the bus, utilising the left flank, right flank and through the middle, short passes, long passes - only to be let down by poor finishing is all down to Moyes and Round. Horrendous.
Bjørn-Ivar Pedersen
61 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:25:09
I don't care if Jelavic wastes 10 chances if he only score 1, but to do so the answer is Vellios: he got too short a time on the pitch to make a difference today, but there was one episode where he played the ball brilliantly to Jelavic... just a pity it didn't end in the back of the net. Vellios seems to have vision and always seems to know where his partner is.

I am a big fan of Jelavic and his type of attacker, the man will play right with the right partner... I've said it so many times.

They are maybe not so great players each for themselves, but together I strongly believe they are dynamite. But I guess our manager will see hell freeze over before he tries 4-4-2.

And today I was amazed by Coleman, he is fantastic to hold on the ball when challenged. He will grow to be perfect for us.

Peter Mills
62 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:38:07
Michael (#270), maybe this demonstrates that the people at Everton are good judges and shrewd rather than negative?
Phil Sammon
63 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:50:08
Having a go at a striker for working hard when he's out of form. Yep, that makes sense...
Jamie Tulacz
64 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:42:54
Bit of an over-reaction by some: don't forget that this is only the second game this season we've failed to score... pretty impressive considering we're past half-way through. Undoubtedly some tiredness out there following the busy Christmas period.

I have to agree with the commentary on Naismith who doesn't look up to it to me and should be shipped out. Oviedo should definitely be preferred...

I was particularly impressed by the performance of Seamus Coleman today, who seems to be coming on quite a bit and was the main bright spark.

Michael Kenrick
65 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:58:03
Jim: "We are fourth, three points off third..." — since this is stated as the basis of your arguement with Phil's nailed on point, I assume that, as you are wrong on both counts — we are in fact 5th (at the moment) four points off third — you will be posting a retraction?

No, thought not.

Peter Mills, No doubt you are pleased with their self-fulfilling prophecy? It's this think kind of thinking that underlines to me why we will achieve nothing again this season.

Peter Mills
66 Posted 12/01/2013 at 20:56:01
Agreed, Phil#288, I'm just amused by how much is the fault of the manager, when opposing defenders kick the ball off the line or the ball bobbles the wrong side of the post. Jelavic is trying very hard to get things working for himself, and that shows a good attitude. When we need a goal in a big game, he's still the man we would look to.
Christopher Kelly
67 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:24:31
Roman,

24 is not youth in this game. I'm just saying he's never been that good.

Bill Griffiths
68 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:28:05
This morning on the match preview, I said I would start with:

Howard;
Neville, Jags, Distin, Baines;
Coleman, Osman, Hitzlsperger, Pienaar
Fellaini
Jelavic.

While I consider this hard on Vic, I think he is totally ineffective when played wide right and we would have no attacking potency/creativity with Vic and Neville in midfield.

After the game I would say my fears were fully founded. While I am a big fan of Moyes, he does totally baffle me sometimes with his team selection, tactics and substitutions etc. However, I dread to think what will happen to us when he does leave... and, despite my disappointment in our dropping a couple of points today, I still can't understand the excessive negativity posted here. Lets wait and see what happens before going off on one.
Trevor Lynes
69 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:26:11
A lot of writing about a side that has consistently punched miles above their weight. We do not have a divine right to be in the top tier of the Premier League. It has to be earned. We do not have players to get into the top 4 without having tremendous luck with injuries. Our replacements are not good enough.

We have had a fantastic season and will finish in the top half without spending a fraction of what other teams above and below us have spent. It's no good talking about resting this player or dropping that player. We do not have the luxury of decent replacements for anyone.

Our main eleven players which include Mirallas and Gibson are as good as any in the league and have cost far less than virtually any other Premier League side. If they are all fit and firing we are a match for anyone. But without that first eleven we are depending upon has-beens, never-wases and free-bees to make up the numbers.

Be honest, Naismith, Hitzlsperger, Heitinga and Neville are not up to it and Anichebe would struggle to make the bench at a top 4 club.

Jim Knightley
70 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:38:58
Michael...it was an error.

Why the comment: 'no, thought not'?

I'm sure most realised I mean't fifth, not fourth. You are an editor still on here aren't you? and do you understand the concept of objectivity as such? or are you going to jump on people for typos now?

Pathetic.

Richard Earle
71 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:33:31
I think we could certainly have won this if Moyes had made some changes earlier. We have good enough players but they are not being utilised effectively.

When the left had side of our attack was nullified, why didn't he bring Oviedo on and switch Pienaar to the right? He also brings on Naismith who has had a sequence of nightmare performances instead of somebody like Vellios who surely would have given us more threat up front.

Swapping Neville for Hitzlsperger a lot earlier would have made sense when the former was clearly struggling to impose himself on the game. It is this lack of imagination and pro-active thinking which is hindering our progress in tough matches like today's. It was there for the taking today and we blew it again.

Paul Dark
72 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:48:57
No one had a really good game today.

Felli looked out of sorts, and Osman, as ever (with almost no exceptions), was neutral/a liability.

I thought Coleman and Anichebe did OK, as well as Distin.

We failed to make to break them down because we lack a playmaker (Osman is SO very far from that) to complement Fellaini. Swansea neutralized our 'left' threat better than any team this season, and that hurt us.

Moyes is doing well given his very limited tactical nous (he's so slow to react in games and lacks an offensive instinct when it is needed).

I think we'll struggle to make a UEFA place (CL is out); I hope it doesn't mean the exit of key players in the summer.

The one hope is that Mirallas returns soon; he's a terrific opener of a game. We need him.

Sam Hoare
73 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:57:46
Moyes did little wrong today. Perhaps he might have bought on Oviedo for Naismith but retrospect is easy.

Facts are that we created enough chances to win and dominated the match but a combination of poor finishing and good defending denied us. We lack an in-form striker.

John Crawley
74 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:44:50
I thought we did have enough opportunities to win the game, particularly in the first half. However the tactics and substitutions reflect Moyes's long-term weaknesses as a manager. He has his favorites and plays them whether or not their form merits it; he consistently plays people out of position without trying them in their favoured position; he is not positive enough with his substitutions and rarely just goes for it until it is far too late in the game.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
75 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:07:17
Sorry, Jim, but the way you led with that 'factoid' gave the distinct impression that it was no mistake. A key claim that underpinned your argument.

Please forgive me for not correcting it directly, as I have seen this used before to put down valid comments: namely that our league position and points difference to 3rd place somehow negates reasonable concerns.

That's what I would call truly pathetic, if you're taking that stance.

Kevin Hudson
76 Posted 12/01/2013 at 21:59:35
Not exactly sure why Moyes is getting it in the neck tonight, as the phrase: "couldn't hit a pig in an entry," sprang to mind.

Just one of those days.

Gavin Ramejkis
77 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:12:21
Kevin, it was partly his fault due to his subs. I think Anichebe was having a poor game and could have gone off earlier and I've no idea why he brought Naegood on as he is desperately poor on the wing and could easily have been Oviedo and Pienaar pushed to the right.

The players did everything but score today. Jags had a bit of a ropey game with some mistakes which weren't punished; Neville was like a crab but again not punished, and too many shots straight at the keeper instead of to either side of him.

Brent Stephens
78 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:21:43
Michael #261. You say "I get fed up of reading this continuous bellyaching about 'lack of resources'. We have the squad we have. That's it. Live with it!"

And then what do you do? You go on further down to say "what we have is the perennial excuse-making for a manager who is NOT making the best use of the resources he has acquired". Now what was that about. We have what we have, live with it?

Henrik Lyngsie
79 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:01:57
Since I am coming to Goodison (for the first time in three years) for the next two home matches, where I had hoped we would compete for third spot, I am a bit disappointed by todays result.

People seem to once again complain about the usual suspects, Neville, Osman, Vic and to some degree Jella. Today at least no complaints about Heitinga!!

In fact the one who frustrated me the most today was Pienaar. Some times we become one dimensional with our left side, and my countryman managing Swansea had clearly a plan to stop our left side. And still Pienaar kept on holding to the ball, stepping on it, and trying small tricky passes even when they had around 15 Swansea players in that side.

We need to be able to switch side and attack from the right as well. And today Coleman had a decent game, although his crossing is still poor. But I think in general our left side would become stronger if we played more at the right side. We are becoming too easy to defend against, if we only try to penetrate from the left, and Jelavic so called poor form is more down to poor service.

Jim Knightley
80 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:27:05
No Michael, it was a simple mistake. My point was that it is strange/ridiculous to claim that we will struggle to finish above Liverpool after drawing with a good and in form Swansea side, when we are fifth in this league(on merit), and only 3 points off fourth. I don't think the idea of coming above Liverpool should even come in to our thinking at the moment... as only us, Spurs and Arsenal are realistic challengers for fourth spot imo.

I've worked far too much over the past month, and as a consequent there will be stupid typos... although most usually they are confined to the miss-spelling of Pienaar's name. Apologies if one has caused confusion.

Sam Hoare
81 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:32:02
Watching Match of the Day... Lukaku, scoring out of nothing. We don't really have any players like that.
Noel Early
82 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:28:16
Paul (#298) — I can't agree with you on Osman, it always seems when we play poorly Osman, Hibbert and Neville are the easy targets. I think Ossie has been sensational this season and deserved his England call-up, he has received praise from all the pundits this year which has been long overdue.

Today was another day that we struggled against a weaker team at Goodison. If teams shut down the left side, we are in major trouble. Mirallas will be a huge addition when he gets back from injury.

Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal are going to finish ahead of us, I feel. I will gladly take 6th place right now and to finish ahead of the redshite... not much ambition, but the best we can hope for, I think. COYB — Keep the faith!

Derek Thomas
83 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:19:40
Even the greatest tactical brain in the world; fill in YOUR 'special one' here................ Would struggle to make a purse of any discription, let alone silk, from all the sow's ears on the bench.

That's our problem in a nutshell.

We were playing with 7 men here, Baines and Pienaar were essentially marked out of it, Jelli is out of form, and Neville; his most telling contribution was to take the ball off Coleman's foot. He didn't, given Swansea's version of Park the Bus have much need to 'take the ball off their feet' so he was a waste of space in a shirt almost anybody could've filled to better effect btw have Leeds played yet, what was their team line up and how did they go on.

No Plan B — and nobody on the bench to play it if we did.

Brendan McLaughlin
84 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:45:50
Seamus...our best player...we'll lose more than we win. And I'm a Seamus fan BTW!
Phil Sammon
85 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:57:44
What?
Paul Dark
86 Posted 12/01/2013 at 22:59:48
P.S.
He needs to drop Naismith and play Oviedo much more, too. Naismith's control is possibly worse than Neville's, and that's some statement.

For all their battling sweat, British players do generally have much less control (vide (the hideously over-rated) Osman).

Brendan McLaughlin
87 Posted 12/01/2013 at 23:16:45
Phil #315
If I have to explain....
Noel Lynam
88 Posted 12/01/2013 at 23:14:19
Michael Kenrick, you complain:

"Add to that this continuous playstation dreaming about Fantasy Football nonsense of bringing in this player or that in the holy grail for so many fans — the wondrous Transfer Window... GET REAL!!! It's not going to happen!!!"

If it bothers you so much then why do you, as editor, use this website to regurgitate transfer rumour after transfer rumour with a comments section beside it? You don't keep throwing fuel on the fire to put it out.

Phil Sammon
89 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:02:47
You will, Brendan, because it makes no sense.
Phil Sammon
90 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:04:25
Paul Dark

You really have a problem with Osman, don't you? He's a good player, there's no two ways about it.

Paul Dark
91 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:09:44
Phil Sammon: I suppose I'm frustrated by the injustice of the plaudits he receives. He incessantly gives the ball away in compromising situations and though he did have a good-ish game recently, he takes up a valuable berth in the centre and offers little. His tackling is poor, his passing very over-rated and his shooting is terrible. Yes, he does do the odd delicate thing on the edge of the area and he has some poise sometimes (usually when it isn't needed), but he's no PL player of any importance or substance. His England call-up really was a comical victory for hype over reality. His contribution, in my view, is a pitiful myth.

I appreciate the pundits, the players and the fans generally take a quite different view, but I'm going with my eyes ... .

If we want CL football, LO shouldn't even be in the squad.

Trevor Lynes
92 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:02:27
This Everton team is a credit to the club and the manager has done wonders with hardly any finances.

Swansea did a job on Chelsea a few days ago and they are in the best form of the season.
So we only managed a draw but so did Spurs with a vastly more expensive squad than ours.

Put things in perspective, we should have at least six points more than we have with a bit of luck and we have lost three games out of the last 31..

We have beaten Man Utd who top the league by miles.

No player can be faulted for effort and if we could have two or three additions to this squad they would reach a european spot.
I would love Lukaku, Buttland and Zabaleta for starters.

Clive Rogers
93 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:12:37
Moyes told us all three years ago that Neville could only play fullback. He's just an embarrassment in midfield, but he's a blue eyed boy. As is Naismith apparently.

The sub today should have been Hitzlsperger for Neville, he's got 50-plus caps for Germany, for god's sake. Moyes hasn't got a clue with subs, he just makes things worse.

How bad does Neville have to play to be left out? How long does Moyes need to make his mind up about Anichebe? He's 25 this year, the same generation as James Vaughan. At this rate, he'll get his testimonial before dithering Davey decides if he's going to make it!!!!!

Phil Sammon
94 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:34:18
Paul Dark

He gives the ball away from time to time because he is an attacking midfielder trying to open up defences.

His shot is poor, there's no denying that. But no worse than Pienaar or Naismith.

I'm fed up of arguing Ossie's case to be honest. If you can't see that he's a good player then I'm sure I can't convince you.

John Ford
95 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:34:51
How can a manager with the highest rate of points per pound spent not be making a decent fist of using his resources. It just doesn't make sense....again!

We're all frustrated today but target your attacks were it makes some sense.

Patrick Murphy
96 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:28:26
Trevor I would love to see additions to the squad as well, but as Michael already stated it ain't gonna happen, this is why someone at the club should be ensuring that those players that are in the squad have at least have the basic skills to perform at PL level. I don't mean first-choice players, I mean those that take up valuable space in the squad and take money out of the club.

If the likes of Vellios, Gueye and others aren't up to the job why are they here? If Naismith is the go to guy in a situation where we need a goal or a telling pass then we are extremely lucky to be in fifth place. Would it hurt the team for Moyes to try a wild card by throwing on Kennedy for 20 mins, nothing ventured nothing gained.

. The team have the same number of points at this moment in time as they achieved with 29 games gone last season this is admirable but it still won't be enough to get us what we all want. You're right to praise the players for their efforts but deep down they probably don't believe that they will get 4th place due to squad limitations.

Paul Andrews
97 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:50:27
Baines, Pienaar, Osman, Jelavic. All running out of steam, playing with niggling injuries and no replacements in the squad.

All down to the lack of funds from Mr Chairman. (He`s a good blue though!)

John Ford
98 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:49:52
Patrick, Moyes like most managers will pick players up for low fees and will hope to bring them up to Premier League standard. Unless you're one of the rich boys this is a fairly common way of doing business and Moyes is better than most at getting the most out of modestly priced players.

He can't just get rid of them because to do that he then needs to buy replacements of similarly modest price and try to do exactly the same thing. Also these players can come good but it takes while. Moyes knows his players better than we do. If the squad is weak as you say, we all know what the cause is.

Andy Crooks
99 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:51:51
It seems to me that every performance is rated on gratitude to David Moyes for not being Walter. We must be judged on the players we have. We have better players than Swansea and should have beaten them. Chelsea were slated for not beating them and if we have any sort of ambition we should feel exactly the same.
Jim Knightley
100 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:51:51
Paul Dark...

Very strange sentiments re. Osman in my eyes. There is a reason he is getting plaudits...and he is a big part of the reason why we are fifth in this league. His vision and passing are superb, and he has a fantastic touch. I really fail to see why the likes of Downing, Barry and Milner, who have been in the England squad for extended periods in the past/present, should be ahead of Osman on current form. We are England... a fairly decent national side, not Spain or Germany. He also has 5 goals from a deep lying position this season, which I consider to be a very good return when you compare him with players who occupy a similar position but do not take freekicks/pens. So evidently, his shooting, whilst weak, is not awful.

Also - Michael, with respect to:

'Instead, what we have is the perennial excuse-making for a manager who is NOT making the best use of the resources he has acquired. There are many examples you can point to but for me this was exemplified this week by two crucial things: sending Barkley out instead of grooming him where he needs to be playing — in the Premier League (although my fear now is the damage is done and we have another Vaughan/Rodwell/Baxter clone on our hands). And secondly, not hauling Neville off at the first opportunity when it was clear in the first half that he was having a total nightmare.'

Firstly...to say we are 'NOT' making the best of resources is strange, and a little conflicting based on other comments, as previously mentioned. We are fifth in this league...the four teams above us have massively outspent us in gross and net terms during Moyes reign. As a quick comparison...we've a gross spend of 60million in the last five seasons...whereas Spurs have 205million, Chelski 326million, United 184mil and City 326mil. Incidentally, Liverpool have spent 252mil, and Villa 159m in the same period. I'm not sure a better validation of our resources exists than relative spending. But addressing your arguments directly. Neville could have gone off earlier...im guessing he stayed on because Swansea have a great attacking threat, especially on the break, as illustrated at Chelski, and we had two attacking full backs on, and a genuinely attacking set up. I don't think taking Neville off, is our most defensively minded midfielder, on the 69th minute was the worse of decisions as a result.

With respect to Barkley.. I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has watched him, thinks he is really to play central midfield (his position), for us at the moment. He lacks the experience or defensive capacity necessary for a central role in our system, and is incredibly naive... imo a more exaggerated version of Wilshere's naivety when he first broke into the Arsenal team, but with less natural ability. If we get injuries, we can call him back.

I also do not understand how you, and others, can continue to call Moyes cautious. We have been one of the most attacking sides in this division since last January...and today was not a cautious set up. We played 2 attacking full backs, 2 attacking midfielders in Pienaar and Fellaini, and Jelavic and Anichebe, both strikers by trade. We also brought Naismith(an attacking player...whether he is good or not is beside the point) for our most defensively minded midfielder, over 20 minutes from the end! How exactly is that cautious?

I am also reasonably optimistic we will bring in a player this window.

Jim Knightley
102 Posted 13/01/2013 at 01:35:02
Agreed, Andy... and I don't think any poster on here is not disappointed. But there is a difference between disappointment, and accepting after the match that Swansea are a good team, they defended well, and it was one of those matches. Chelsea got slated because they lost... not just because they didn't beat them, and there is a significant difference. Swansea have beaten Arsenal, Chelski and Liverpool away from home in all comps this season... and they are a difficult team to play against.

We didn't play fantastic... but we should have taken one of the chances that came our way. It is fucking irritating of course... but as I said previously, I'm less disappointed with this point, than many of our other draws this season. If we win next week (and I think we need to do), I believe we have a very good chance of being fourth come Monday evening. That's why I think we need to temper our criticism a little... because we are very much in the top four fight.

We ould really do with Mirallas back. Any chance of him making Monday I wonder?

Fraser Auld
103 Posted 13/01/2013 at 01:17:38
Paul Dark #324 – "I appreciate the pundits, the players and the fans generally take a quite different view, but I'm going with my eyes ... . If we want CL football, LO shouldn't even be in the squad."

Dude, if going with your eyes honestly tells you that Leon Osman shouldn't be in the squad, then I suggest you get yourself down to the nearest white stick/guide dog emporium asap!

A lot of comments saying we controlled the game today, as if it was some sort of achievement. Swansea let us control the game; they weren't interested in competing for control of the ball, they conceded it right from the start and tried to hit us on the counter. They challenged us to break them down and we couldn't. These are the type of games/situations we have struggled to win all through Moyes's tenure; if we want to kick on, he has to work out how to win the games where the onus is on us!

Si Cooper
104 Posted 13/01/2013 at 01:47:21
I guess how you view today's result depends largely on whether you think 3 points, 1 point, or no points is the significant factor in sustaining a challenge for Champions League qualification (I think most people believe that achieving that will go a long way to determining which players we retain / attract and whether EFC can break out of the present financial down-spiral).

I would say that potentially missing the opportunity to get all three just to ensure that we hold onto one is a bit of a false economy in these sort of games and so I can understand those who are bemoaning the manager's delay in trying to ramp up the attacking threat in this game (and some of the personnel he ultimately chose when he did change things). How much of a threat did Swansea pose after Phil Neville was substituted? Did we really need his defensive attributes for the majority of the time he was on the pitch, ie, how many of their attacks did he personally snuff out?

Leon Osman has been an important player for us this season, but in recent games he has apparently become inviolate with some apparently unable to notice the drop-off in the standards he had previously been displaying on a regular basis. We need a real alternative to him available in the squad and on the bench for every game. The fact that we don't currently have one and appear to have no plans to invest in one is a severe oversight by the club's hierarchy in my view.

Roman Sidey
105 Posted 13/01/2013 at 03:28:52
I'm surprised the double standards here have not been pointed out yet. As one of the active anti-Moyes supporters, I've bitten my tongue almost all season regarding our manager - occasional spats have come out - as he has been doing a pretty good job. It doesn't seem right to criticise too much when the job is getting done (to be fair, out of 22 "jobs" he has had this season, he has only succeeded nine times).

This has to work two ways though.

This game against Swansea should have been three points to Everton, and it was only through Moyes's selection, lack of response to the game, and poor/wrong substitutions that we didn't win. This is not a game where his die hard, ginger eyed supporters should be coming on here and praising him for the job he "has done", but to let the criticism for a very poor night at the office flow. Seriously, he dropped Bily, Heitinga, Gueye, Drenthe et al for less ordinary football that Naismith is putting out there. This, after he struggled to keep the ball against a League Two fucking side.

People cite money spent – well, fuck Swansea, we are Everton and have a better squad than them, regardless of how much they've spent (I have no idea how much they've spent). Likewise, people say Liverpool have spent x while we've only spent y. Well, out of their entire squad, Suarez, Reina, to an extent Gerrard and Johnson are the only players they have that would have a chance of playing for us on talent, ability or form.

Others cite hindsight being a virtue – it isn't hindsight and it hasn't been for the last two to three years. It's the same team running out on the field and the same subs coming on at the same point of the game. On the live feed almost everyone was pre-emptively moaning about Naismith's introduction 15 minutes before he came on. And we all knew that if Vellios was coming on he'd get less than 10 minutes. That's not hindsight, that's being predictable.

I just watched the game for a second time, and I'm convinced that the players, forwards especially, do barely any finishing practice, as someone with Jelavic's talent and goal-scoring record should not be missing this many sitters unless he is not working on it regularly.

Peter Barry
106 Posted 13/01/2013 at 04:16:53
Neville is way past his 'sell-by' date. Anichebe cannot play wide right he ALWAYS looks useless there but Moyes persists in playing him there. Naismith is not and never will be a Premier League quality player; having him in the team is worse than playing one man short. At least a missing player does not continuously give the ball away and run round mindlessly getting in other players way.

Jelavic, last seasons 'instinctive' striker, has become, under Moyes and Rounds coaching, a 'headless chicken' with no ability to react instinctively at all.

So the question must be asked and, as many TW posters have confirmed, the fans can see all this clear as day (at least those who are not perpetual Moyes apologists that is)... So, why can't the manager, Dour Davey — who has every attribute of an excellent manager except money to spend (if you want to believe the sycophants and the Media Pundits) — see it too?

We can all hope for an injection of new blood in the transfer window but will that make Davey a better manager or Round a better coach? Of course NOT.

Roman Sidey
107 Posted 13/01/2013 at 04:48:07
Si, I agree with everything in your post. I do, however, propose that we do have an alternative to Osman for those games where he isn't clicking. Today, we could have brought on Hitz for him. The problem is that Neville needed to come off, so Hitz should have come on there. But Fellaini could drop back with Vellios coming on earlier, Pienaar switching right and Oviedo coming on. It sounds like a lot of shuffling, but the most out of position player then is Pienaar, and he's shown that he can operate on the right, left, and centre.
Albert Dock
108 Posted 13/01/2013 at 06:05:45
If Phil Neville really was a cheese he'd definitely be the Lancashire or Cheshire variety.

Not too bad sometimes but sqeeze it and it tends to crumble.

Michael Kenrick
109 Posted 13/01/2013 at 05:39:34
Jim, we obviously don't judge things on the same scales. I look at the players Everton have, I don't care about all these other teams, or how much they have spent. That should not affect how our Everton players perform on the field on the day in terms of their own ability when it comes to assessing yesterday's game.

If we are going to compete in this league with the players we have then we need to perform to the best of our ability, both as individuals and as a team when they take to the field. That's down to the manager. Either he's up for it... or it's the infamous "knife to a gunfight" mentality that has us beaten before we cross the white line.

He acquires a decent enough squad but he continues to make poor overly cautious decisions, at least that's what I see. This season, he has been more adventurous than before, and I believe that is why we have been doing better than in most previous seasons. And yes, you can convince yourself that we're doing as well as can be expected – or better – while the number of games we should have won continues to rise, and the number of games we shouldn't have won but did remains small. That means we could and perhaps should be in a higher place than 5th. That assessment is based on how our players have performed in terms of their own abilities in the 90+ minutes — not any other team's resources.

And regarding Barkley, I am fearful that the chance may have passed. If ever there was a budding and exciting talent that needed nurturing and encouraging 5 months ago... Instead, under Moyes, we have seen the opposite. Every time he talks about him must set the lad back another 6 to 12 months in terms of his confidence and ambition. I hope I'm wrong... but the track record ain't all that great, sadly.

Christine Foster
110 Posted 13/01/2013 at 07:29:50
Message to Moyes:

When you see a plan isn't working, change it asap, don't wait.

Message from Moyes:

Who said the plan isn't working??? It might work...

Result? 10 mins left... desperation time!

Harold Matthews
111 Posted 13/01/2013 at 06:06:57
Very disappointing performance. Okay, we dominated the game. Swansea came to defend, forfeited possession and challenged us to break them down. Chances came and chances went... mostly from set plays or speculative lobs into the box. Not once did we show the skill, the imagination or the creativity that separates the best sides from the perpetual losers.

Many will say it was not the fault of Mr Moyes. We should have scored two or three. Normally I am in this camp... but no more. I've had as much as I can stand.

The comments of many ToffeeWebbers on this thread supply the reasons for my change of heart. Far too many players are comfortable; no matter how bad they are performing they know they will always be picked... and even if they are having a nightmare they will not be removed.

Is Jelavic better than Vellios? Right now he probably isn't; he's certainly slower.

And what's with this Naismith business? The lad tries hard but is plainly not Premier League class. Why is he preferred to Oviedo, a boy of real class with sufficient speed and intelligence to have made a difference? He can operate well in various positions yet is left to rot on the bench while players not fit tie his laces are running around the pitch without a clue.

I could go on but I won't. Get your bags packed Mr Moyes. I'll give you a lift to the airport.

Ian Bennett
112 Posted 13/01/2013 at 00:12:33
"Instead, what we have is the perennial excuse-making for a manager who is NOT making the best use of the resources he has acquired. There are many examples you can point to but for me this was exemplified this week by two crucial things: sending Barkley out instead of grooming him where he needs to be playing — in the Premier League (although my fear now is the damage is done and we have another Vaughan/Rodwell/Baxter clone on our hands). And secondly, not hauling Neville off at the first opportunity when it was clear in the first half that he was having a total nightmare".

Why is Barkley being compared to Vaughan, Rodwell and Baxter? The first 2 physically are not up to playing Premier League football, and sadly will probably never will be. Did Moyes over play them, not give them a chance? No, he gave both of them a chance and they were not up to it, which influenced his decision to get good money and invest better elsewhere. Baxter was all hype from over excited fans. If he was that good, why did he struggle to get a contract, settling for a low ranking Division 1 outfit.

I have never seen a manager sub a trusted player at half-time 0 - 0 unless injured.

Some demand knee-jerk reactions, demand that senior players get bombed out for this young kid or whatever, and then complain about trust, confidence, consistency. We are all armchair managers who would cause chaos in the work place of L4.

Phil Walling
113 Posted 13/01/2013 at 08:22:05
Another point is that if Hitzlsperger is not a better player than Neville, why the hell has he been given a contract until May? Captain Pip can just about do a job at full-back but has never looked competent in midfield in all his years with us. So just why can`t our £4M a year manager see this?
Ian Bennett
114 Posted 13/01/2013 at 08:41:41
Phil – how much did Hitzlsperger cost? Are the other centre midfielders likely to play 100% of the remaining matches?

Frustrating as it is, Hitzlsperger is a low-cost cover for Gibson and an ageing Neville. I would prefer McCarthy from Wigan in there, but sadly we never have the money to make key additions that other clubs can.

Harold Matthews
115 Posted 13/01/2013 at 09:11:37
Can't beat a good injury. A few weeks off sick and two fairly decent players, Mirallas and Gibson, have miraculously turned into Pele and Maradona.

Holy smoke... We're going for the treble!!!

Steve Brown
116 Posted 13/01/2013 at 09:34:50
What we learned today... Everton are more potent with Fellaini in attack than midfield (our threat died when he dropped back); Neville is long gone as a midfielder (if he ever was one); Anichebe is a good impact sub but not a starter and definitely not a right winger; Coleman will become a good attacking full-back if his final ball improves.

Also, Jelavic needs a rest badly (but we can't give him one), we badly need Mirallas back and the youngsters have even less chance of getting a game now under Moyes now we are Top 5. And yes we are still Top 5.

Steve Brown
117 Posted 13/01/2013 at 09:59:21
We also learned that the editor of TW believes everything that estimable football guru Mark Pougatch quotes on 606. "Reportedly... he heard from people AT EVERTON that they doubted Jelavic could replicate the performance he had shown last term through a whole season, and continue to produce his impressive goal return. Also, that they would consider letting him go if they got a good offer for him"

Who was this "deep throat II" source that Pougatch quoted and Mr Kenrick placed all his enraged faith in? A director, member of the back-room staff, player, toffeelady, pieman or the bloke selling the carpark passes? We don't know but given that "deep throat I" was about to reveal the full details of a real takeover bid from his bedsit attic room a few weeks ago, we must put our total faith in this latest source.

For as Mr Kenrich said himself about revealing this bombshell "This utter shit just blows my mind..."

Derek Thomas
118 Posted 13/01/2013 at 10:37:30
There is no guarantee just because we have improved in the 2nd half of the last 5(?) seasons that we will this 2nd half.

We started off with a hiss and a roar catching United cold and we have ever so slowly gone down hill... and so it seems to me the 'poorer' we get the more the old Moyes starts to re-surface... Of course, win the next three on the trot and it's CL here we come and I always knew Moyes had it in him.

That is the lot of Evertonians, it comes with the territory.

Jim Knightley
119 Posted 13/01/2013 at 11:02:51
These posts continue to strike me as a reactionary....surely people realise that we can't win every match, and there is a difference between disappointment and wholescale negativity? And Christine, I fail to see how your statement holds up...we brought Neville off in the 69th minute, not the 80th. Can someone please tell me how a team, in which we had, for the last 20-25mins two attacking full backs, a 'defensive midfield' in Osman, 3 attack minded midfielders, and two strikers on, is cautious? What you are saying just doesn't add up. We can only play attacking with the players we have. We also had 18 goal attempts yesterday, and were the better team again.

And Si, can't agree with the Osman stuff. His performances against West Ham and Chelski were two of his best this season...and obviously the FA cup match was acceptable. How exactly is he displaying a drop off in standards?

I suppose what surprises me, is that we've used Osman this season in pretty much every game, Neville frequently, and Naismith, as well as Jelavic who can't hit a barndoor apparently. That we are fifth, says the assessment of some of those players are overly harsh. I think Naismith is shit too...he reminds of Hibbert, if he were an attacking player (no offence to Hibbert...I'm a great admirer of his defensive ability). But I suppose the issue with Naismith, is that he is possibly third or even fourth choice right mid atm, as I expect that if Hibbert was fit, Coleman would be pushed up. I don't see the issue playing Anichebe...he has been in form, and can do just as good a job as Naismith, whilst he also played very well coming off a wide position against Chelski.

Our next 3 matches are Southampton away, WBA at home, and Villa at home. We must win all three, and if we do, we will be fourth heading into the last quarter of the season I expect. Hopefully, by the time those three matches are up, we would have also added either an attacking wide player (right sided)/striker or another central midfield. I'm holding off the pessimism for the moment, because I personally think we've been fantastic this season, and the kind of criticism we witness after any loss of points is over-top, and generally unfair. I also think a nine day rest is going to do us good.

Ian Bennett
120 Posted 13/01/2013 at 10:54:35
It's no surprise that the usual suspects need to get the digs on Moyes. Everton win, silence. Everton lose or fail to beat an inferior side, Moyes fault. Dour Davey, what a shit comment it's 18 months out of date for a start.

The issue from what I saw yesterday isn't that we didn't create enough chances or weren't solid enough at the back, but rather a number of PLAYERS failed to take one of many presentable chances which is the theme of the season. Why is it Moyes's fault that Distin didn't attack the back post from the Jelavic flick, or Victor/Jags didn't bury those headers, Fellaini's back pass, Neville pinching Coleman's chance etc.

To be a successful side players like Distin, Jags, Pienaar etc need to be weighing in with more goals. We collectively believe that these players are good players, well good players elsewhere score more than 2 or 3 a season and perform their team role; average ones don't.

Perhaps we need to accept they are a bit more average than we like to admit. Jelavic is having a tough time, is working the flanks too much, but others need to step up to the plate. Moaning about us not battering teams when we are creating 14 to 25 chances on goal a game, isn't the fault of manager. Players need to learn to take them.

Ben Jones
121 Posted 13/01/2013 at 11:48:46
It's pretty hilarious some of the reactions actually

Remember this is only ONE GAME! We didn't even play that well, and we had at least four chances to win.

Now all of a sudden, we're not gonna finish in the European places, after one game? It's ridiculous over reactions again.

I'll understand if we lost a few games in a row, but if we beat Southampton on Monday, there'll be talk of how well we are playing and how we can finish in the top 4 blah blah.

The conclusion of the game in my opinion is our squad showed up, we had no one on the bench to make a massive difference in the game today. Michael can say all he wants about transfers, all we need is a couple of loan signings to boost numbers and the squad a bit. Why can't he do it again Michael? We got Arteta, Pienaar (twice!), Fernandes (twice again!) and Drenthe all on loan, which made a difference, all with our supposed lack of resources. Why can't Moyes do that again?

Tom Owen
122 Posted 13/01/2013 at 12:20:32
Another TWO points dropped again yesterday, they're counting up. We're still in the mix for fourth though, but sadly I think we'll miss out. The squad look tired. Reinforcements are needed. We need players to come in and make a similar impact as Pienaar, Gibson and Jelavic did, but as we all know, that costs money and have we got any?

I thought we played OK, but apart from a few headers we didn't really create that much else. Swansea defended excellently and on a few occasions countered us, but I don't think Jags and Distin had too many problems. People talking about Michu, what about Chico Flores? Another excellent buy for little money by Swansea.

I am a firm believer that Oviedo and Vellios should be getting more minutes than just the few 10 minute cameos every other game. They have bags more ability than the likes of Anichebe and Naismith yet he persists with those yet they have little impact on games. And I don't understand Neville playing in the midfield too, with Barkley out on loan and Hitz on the bench. I'm not renewing my season ticket if Neville gets a contact extension.

There are a few moaning about Jelavic, yet there's a reason for him not scoring as much as last season. The service into Jelavic hasn't been as good this season. Moyes is too focused on Fellaini and makes Jelavic work a lot harder around him, notably going out to the wing, instead of being in the box. Clearly Jelavic is struggling for chances. I ask why our manager doesn't change it around for games and plays to Jelavic instead. In games like yesterday, we needed just the one goal but we were never going to get it even if we had played for 180 minutes. It would be interesting to see Naismith behind Jelavic, just saying.

Kevin Hudson
123 Posted 13/01/2013 at 13:14:24
The fiction: "The infamous 'knife to a gunfight,' mentality that has us beaten before we cross the white line."

(Michael Kenrick: Post 356).

The facts: We've been beaten just TWICE in 22 league games this season...

Kevin Hudson
124 Posted 13/01/2013 at 13:20:30
Okay...it's actually 3 defeats, but I think the point still holds!!
Andy Walker
125 Posted 13/01/2013 at 12:48:09
Thanks to all those who have pointed out we needed 3 points from yesterday's game. If only Moyes had realised this before the game instead of thinking 1 was enough eh?

Sack him and bring in one of the numerous high class managers currently out of work who can obviously guarantee that we will win the league. It's so easy I don't know why it hasn't been done already.

In the real world now, we did miss numerous chances, Jelavic one of the guilty as usual missing inside the box (not from the wing), but on another day one would have been taken by someone and the 3 points would have been bagged. It's how it goes.

Just wish people would stop being anti Moyes without putting any positive alternative forward. Guess it's easy to just criticise, it's must be too difficult to actually come up with an alternative.

Christine Foster
127 Posted 13/01/2013 at 14:23:28
Andy, many alternatives are given by just about every poster on here, but they are not paid £4M to get it right are they?
Naysayers? People having a go at Moyes? Well it's called frustration. Do we watch a different game than the manager? Generally I would say 90% of the posters and commentators see a game and performances the same way, that includes most journalists too, so we can't all be wrong.

What gets to many fans, including myself, is the reluctance to bring a badly performing player off until it makes little difference who comes on with so little time left.

We have thrown away points this season because of our manager's reluctance to change, his conservatism always looks to keep a point than go for three. When we see positive substitutions, it's usually after we concede or with less than 10 mins to go.

Moyes? Done well but could do better...

Mike Powell
128 Posted 13/01/2013 at 14:33:44
They came with a game plan not to lose; we did every thing except score. More and more teams are going to play like that against us now. Why are people still having a go at Big Vic? He his playing his best football for a long time. Vellios is just a headless chicken; got to agree with you about Naismith — he is piss poor
Harold Matthews
129 Posted 13/01/2013 at 13:59:09
Christine (#360), that's just about the gist of it. After years of full support, I've had enough. Leaving on the old faithful when they are clearly off-form and preferring Naismith to Oviedo was the last straw.

The blind inability to see the many qualities of Oviedo cannot be dismissed lightly. It is, in fact, quite serious. This highly talented young Costa Rican has the class, intelligence and pace to be successfully utilised in various positions... as Moyes himself recently admitted Sadly, he does not like to use young players and it is costing us dearly.

Brent Stephens
130 Posted 13/01/2013 at 15:05:41
Christine (#454) — "many alternatives are given by just about every poster on here, but they are not paid £4M to get it right are they?"

Is your point that he doesn't get it right so he shouldn't then be paid £4M? Or, having decided to pay him £4M, he must get it right?

Andy Walker
131 Posted 13/01/2013 at 15:55:33
Christine, no alternative managers are posted on here. Name all the managers that have been put forward on this thread to replace Moyes. Who do you think wold do a better job than Moyes? I won't hold my breath...
Si Cooper
132 Posted 13/01/2013 at 16:04:58
Jim (#414) -

This is not just having a go at the player. To me he is one of our regulars who is looking tired, and he needs someone to share his responsibilities. When he is paired with Neville and Fellaini is upfront he is expected to patrol the wide open spaces and he is simply not up to doing it week in week out.

In regard to recent performances all I can say is that my opinion in you weren't watching the majority of the Chelsea game particularly closely because he was dispossessed far too easily and simply bypassed or run past pretty much at will. He scored a nice goal against Cheltenham, but was otherwise distinctly average. I can remember at least two occasions when he put simple passes to our left wing 5 yards in front of the player and out when there was no pressure on, plenty of his other passes were poor and he was easily outpaced and dispossessed on multiple occasions. Just because these instances have not led to us being punished directly does not mean they won't cost us sometime in the future.

His biggest strength, his quick feet and ability to evade close attention, is simply not being used often enough in the areas where it poses the greatest threat to the opposition.

Si Cooper
133 Posted 13/01/2013 at 16:27:40
That's fair Roman (#350), but I do think we could do with an extra body in the squad to cover that role and leave everyone else in their primary positions.

We have been told that some business is likely to be done during this window (albeit without a lot of money changing hands) and I will be bitterly disappointed if taking up the option on Hitzlsperger is the limit of our midfield recruitment. Too many older / slower legs for my liking. I wouldn't necessarily expect someone with Osman's level of skill, more some power and pace to get box to box.

Paul Ferry
134 Posted 13/01/2013 at 16:06:14
I can't stand the sort of "calm down, calm-down... get back in the real word" pontificating by Andy Walker and the like (#441). Guess what? "It's how it goes", you silly frustrated posters. That's the answer folks: "It's how it goes".

You can't come up with something a little more thoughtful and insightful, Mr Walker? It's actually not how it goes. WE drew the game that we ought to have won; don't get me started on the Neville Chamberlains on here saying "not a bad result", "The Swans parked the bus", "credible result", "decent point"...

"It's not how it goes" Mr Walker: our link-up play was bottom drawer, no joined-up footie, midfield was crap, finishing was school-of-the-blind quality. And then, Mr Walker, there is Neville, there is Naismith, there is yet again poor subbing, there is bringing on Naismith and not the Costa Rican.

We are all I am sure deeply grateful for your much needed splash of realism and high church lecturing, Mr Walker, but that it not "how it goes". That mess yesterday was created, it was the result of many things, it did not come from anywhere: that is how it goes Mr Walker.

And then there is your ridiculous Winter 2011 vintage complacent unhelpful platitude: "Eh, who ya gonna replace him with, eh, eh, eh, who's gonna step into his shoes, eh, eh, eh???" Where the fuck does that come from, eh? So, rightfully in my view and that of others, there is criticism levelled at the team and the gaffer springing from frustration and more than a fair slice of reason.

So, in Walker's hands this becomes, "Blah blah blah, who ya gonna get in the, eh? blah, blah" — Did anyone call for Moyes's head Mr Walker? Did they?

So, answer this question directly and make sure you do, as you seem to like throwing down the gauntlet to others: Why did you take the leap from well founded and concerned criticism to (1) not countering it with anything of substance but "that's how it goes". And (2) insist in 2 posts now that those blues daring to have a dig at the team and gaffer should come up with an alternative?

Instead of completely conceptualizing issues and coming up with unreasonable tripe, let's put the foot on the other shoe, shall we, and you answer questions about your pontificating posts Mr Walker, okay?

Si Cooper
135 Posted 13/01/2013 at 17:45:14
Paul, that is how some folks on here think debate works.

Simply polarise somebody's post by making out it is actually an extreme and unreasonable position and then you don't have to do the tricky bit of countering their points at all.

The other favourite is listing a series of examples that you think 'prove' your point of view (even though they never can unless you have access to the parallel universes where the alternative scenarios occurred) whilst conveniently ignoring examples that don't fit your argument.

Roman Sidey
136 Posted 13/01/2013 at 17:30:44
Andy, we've all put forward our preferences for an alternative manager over the past two years at some stage when asked, but EVERY single name from Dowie (relegation specialist) to Mourinho (couln't win ECL with Chelsea and can't beat Barca with Real so must be shit!) has been laughed off as not suitable by the apologists that seem to think that there is not another living human being that could manage Everton at this current point in time. I, for one, am sick of wasting my breath saying who would be a good manager knowing that people like you will come up with something negative (!) to say about it.

Ian Bennett, most of us on here that have criticised Moyes on this thread HAVE acknowledged that it was the players that let us down, but that it is MOYES that selected some wrong players and not using the players on the bench effectively.

Oviedo has shown more promise in about 200 minutes of football than Naismith has shown in 1000, Neville's performance was summed up when a bloke 11 years younger than him and with about 500 less senior games berated him for stealing the ball off of him.

For the record, Neville had the gall to post on Twitter that while he was disappointed for dropping points that he "should of (sic) scored". That, for me, shows just how comfortable some of these players are. If Barkley had have stolen that ball off Coleman and not scored, he would sit the next six months on the bench. It's this favouritism that Moyes shows that has just gone on too long.

Brent Stephens
137 Posted 13/01/2013 at 18:05:30
"Let's put the foot on the other shoe"???
Peter Barry
138 Posted 13/01/2013 at 18:15:24
Nobody wins a trophy or high League positions if they constantly DRAW.
Peter Barry
139 Posted 13/01/2013 at 18:25:04
Roman Sidey (#483) — Not only does Dour Davey pick the wrong mix of players from the admittedly restricted pool he has available to him but he also persists in playing many of them in the wrong positions such as Anichebe on the right wing against Swansea — a position he has NEVER shown any aptitude for.

His substitutions, apart from injuries, are far too often too late, and with the WRONG players too, such as Naismith. There is no question or situation to which the answer is: "let's bring on Naismith". His well known (he is in print and on record saying it himself) record of falling back on KITAP1 just gives the opposition the advantage.

Ian Bennett
140 Posted 13/01/2013 at 18:19:55
Roman - Moyes finished the game with 8 attack minded players on the park on Saturday, with his standard tactic of getting as many goal getters on the pitch as possible. In the past it has worked, and IMHO the side was as good as he could have got on the pitch.

Hitzslperger or Oviedo might have changed the game with an assist or indeed a goal, however he clearly has felt that the XI who finished the game were the most likely to get him something. If you asked a straw pole most before the match would have agreed with that finishing XI, with votes split on the problematic right hand side.

I like Oviedo, but not on the right. Sticking him wide left does take something from Baines as both like to hug the left side, whilst most would keep the best left side Premier League duo together. Hitzlsperger has done okay, but certainly has not ripped up any trees. I am not sure he would be getting my vote over Osman or Fellaini in the centre, as both are more creative and both score more goals.

Roman Sidey
141 Posted 13/01/2013 at 19:15:22
Eight attacking players? So, I'll go through the players that were on the field at the final whistle, Ian.

Howard - not attacking
Jagielka - not attacking
Distin - not attacking
Baines - semi-attacking as defending is still his primary role
Coleman - semi-attacking as defending is still his primary role
Osman - apparently attacking but playing deep - struggles late in games
Fellaini - was not attacking after subs came on
Naismith - attacking but defended better for them more than he attacked for us
Pienaar - attacking
Vellios - attacking - should have been on earlier, much earlier
Jelavic - attacking - but perhaps needs a rest.

Regardless of how many of those players you consider attacking players, the game plan wasn't working, and Moyes took too long to "change" anything. Like I said on an earlier post, if you need to change things with 10 to go at home against a club like Swansea, the game plan HAS NOT worked, and changes should have been made as early as half time.

In the end we had a sub remaining, and I'm not a fan of using three subs every game just because you can, but in this game, to have Oviedo and Hitz on the bench while the 11 on the field obviously weren't getting the job done is just poor management. No amount of discussion is going to change my opinion on this game. This was Moyes's doing. You might come back with "Oviedo or Vellios or Hitz might not have made a difference coming on earlier or at all", but I'll tell you something: they didn't contribute anything from the bench.

Paul Ferry
142 Posted 13/01/2013 at 19:24:58
Well said, Si (#482), nice piece of deconstruction.

Well spotted, Brent (#484), oops.
Roman Sidey
143 Posted 13/01/2013 at 19:29:17
Also, Ian, what good was the "best left-side Premier League" duo doing in this game to warrant not being broken up?
Si Cooper
144 Posted 13/01/2013 at 19:10:12
Ian, how to miss the point(s) spectacularly!

People wanted the substitutions done earlier (who cares who 'finishes' the game) and despite you not liking Oviedo on the right an awful lot would have preferred him there considering the way the game was going and who the alternative was.

In case you didn't notice, we desperately needed more threat on the right yesterday because Swansea were neutralising our left-hand threat (this can happen if you are one dimensional). Seamus made some good attempts to offer an alternative but he was doing it from full-back and needed someone in front.

As another alternative Hitzlsperger could have easily sat in front of our defence and been as effective defensively as Phil Neville was all game, whilst offering a great deal more in terms of vision and passing ability.

Attack-minded but not very good is not the same as attack-minded and decent. Getting 10 or 20 minutes to make a difference is not the same as getting 30 /35.

Ian Bennett
149 Posted 13/01/2013 at 20:06:21
Hindsight football managers don't you just love em.

Roman - the last eight listed IMO are all attacking type players, all like to get forward and all have scored goals for us and all can create. If he had left a Hibbert, or a Neville on, I can understand the point, but he didn't. The fact that you have included attacking in those listed, and then tried to wriggle back out of it I think proves the point.

As I say hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I would be surprised if any manager would be making changes to his team at half time against a team like Swansea with the game at nil-nil. If the side were losing and had played badly I could understand it, but they weren't that bad. Special one stroppy substitutions at 0 - 0, is sure to break the team spirit that is key to a club like ours (we are repeatedly told this is why we are better than the sum of our parts), so I thank the lord you remain at you key board rather than the training ground.

In relation to your Baines/Pienaar comment, I don't where to start. Your knee-jerk football manager comment is a bit of a joke. Perhaps we should of subbed them both at half time? Me, I am happy to keep the set piece quality of Baines, and the flair of Pienaar, and hope our quality told. 19 times in the last 20 it's worked.

Si – Oviedo is not effective on the right. It's been tried and never really worked. The simple truth is we don't have good enough backup for the right-hand side, and disappointingly nothing ever coming through from the youth.

Why put Hitzlsperger on for Neville, when Osman and Fellaini were a better option in the centre, a combination that has worked a couple of times this season already?

David Price
150 Posted 13/01/2013 at 21:05:28
Oh dear, Roman, so Baines and Coleman were only semi-attacking players. Semi, I guess means half and half, at what point did they spend half the game defending? We did have 8 players trying to win the game, the other two, Jags and Distin had two headers that should have won the game. Utter negative and inaccurate observations from you yet again.

Jim Knightley, a balanced piece of writing and a descriptive analysis of the game and were we stand. Yes, we didn't play to our normal standard, one goal and the flood gates may have opened. If Stoke had come to Goodison and played like Swansea there would be a different opinion, but as it's Swansea, well it's fine. They were anti-football with that display, a disgrace and should offer us Danny Graham as way of an apology.

John Crawley
151 Posted 13/01/2013 at 21:24:14
Ian, with regard to your comment about the right-hand side and nothing coming through from the youth, I think you have forgotten that Matthew Kennedy was on the bench. An 18-year-old right winger with a lot of promise, he has played 14 games for Kilmarnock in the Scottish Premier League. He has also been performing very well in the U21 League, since he came to Everton.

Phil made the comment earlier about this lad and what did we have to lose in giving him 20 minutes instead of Naismith? — and I agree.

I agree with your comments about making a change at half-time; with a bit better finishing we could have had 2 or 3 goals. The point remains though that Moyes is basically a reactive manager, who is very cautious with his substitutions and plays people out of position.

For instance, it is clear that Naismith is not a right midfielder, and you can see that by constantly playing him there his confidence is shot. I don't think he is as bad as people are making out but I wouldn't be playing him on the right hand side. So he is getting mercilessly slaughtered, just like Osman did when he was being played out of position by Moyes for years!

David Price
152 Posted 13/01/2013 at 21:57:58
Agree there John, Naismith is a striker and it must be frustrating him on the wing Oviedo looks a player who can play across the midfield, not just the left, Pienaar as we know is right footed and uses Baines to cross on the run, likewise Oviedo can use an ever improving Coleman.
John Crawley
153 Posted 13/01/2013 at 22:24:25
David personally I would have liked to see Kennedy but I can see the logic of putting Oviedo on. Either option would have been preferable to putting Naismith on the right.

I would have also been giving Barkley a run out on the right hand side when he came back from Sheffield Wednesday but that's another story.

Jim Knightley
154 Posted 13/01/2013 at 22:12:44
Guys... Peter... etc... Anichebe was playing right not because we wanted to play him out of position... but because our natural right sided winger (Mirallas), and our next most natural player for that position (Coleman) were out/at rb. In terms of seniors that leaves few options for right side... I would have preferred Oviedo over Naismith with respect to a sub, but Anichebe had earnt a start.

And let's not over-hype Oviedo. He has looked decent, but some of these comments suggest he is the obvious answer to our current right-sided issue, when he isn't. We have a problem on that side, and we need to address it this window, because we do not have a current real option in the squad, only out-of-position players, who all are adequate, but nothing more.

And Si... all I can say is that I was watching the Chelski game more closely than you. In the game I watched, we won the central midfield battle in general, and were the better team despite a patched-up starting 11. I wonder sometimes whether some people watch highlights on MotD, and then imagine our players are so much worse than other teams... and that we are fifth despite carrying 2/3 players a match, and with a manager who is tactically inept. Problem is, I suppose our position, and our finances contradict that... but oo well, let's forget about those. Neville is the worse player in this league, Osman is vastly overrated, Jelavic is now rubbish because of Moyes etc etc.

Btw, with respect to giving the ball away... did anyone watch either match today? Because guess what... the central mids consistently gave the ball away, and were dispossessed in several dodgy positions. That is why pass statistics in the top 80% are widely applauded.

And there is a lot of talk about misrepresentation on this thread, from certain posters doing a little of their own. For me, the view of the 'pro' Moyes posters (loosely used) is this: We are disappointed to draw, but it is not the end of the world, as Swansea are a good team. It is not: Swansea are a good team, we should be happy with a draw.

This is a significant difference. There is a big over-reaction about this match, and this weekend. I was pissed off at the time, but now, I'm philosophical. We have a nine-day rest before Southampton, whilst our two major competitors play tough matches. On top of that, Spurs drew against the bottom team in this division, Arsenal lost at home, and WBA lost to Reading. Of course a win would have been preferable, but a draw isn't the end of the world.

A team can't win every match... sometimes several players just don't play that well, and that happened yesterday. When we've posters call for Hitz to come on to improve us... well I think that says a lot about our squad problems.

Kevin Tully
155 Posted 13/01/2013 at 22:31:52
Is it just me, or is Jagielka hoofing at every opportunity? It's becoming a bit of an embarrassment to be honest – I really thought we had moved on from this type of hoof & hope football.

Swansea did a proper job on neutralising Baines & Pienaar yesterday. I am surprised more managers don't mark these two out of the game, as we are so poor down our right-hand side.

I suppose we were due 0 - 0 at some point this season, so we shouldn't get too down about the result.

It's between Arsenal, Spurs and us for 4th spot, and I would say we are 3rd favourites out of the three.

Dean Adams
156 Posted 13/01/2013 at 22:43:47
I guess it's all about percentages and believing in your players. Moyes has managed to get us in the top ten again so far this season when there were those saying we would go down!! Mr Marsh posted his usual negative drivel in the summer about how poor Moyes is. Well I am happy that we are in the chase, disappointed that we have drawn so many games we should have won, but still believe we can finish well enough to be in contention for the top 4.
Ian Bennett
157 Posted 13/01/2013 at 22:47:55
John 539 - agreed on the young kid, although I haven't seen him play yet, so I can't really comment. I wait for some to claim he is the second coming though.
David Price
158 Posted 13/01/2013 at 22:41:49
Vic had earnt his start and I've liked the change in the guy, watching him closely on Saturday I was concerned with his work off the ball and lack of awareness in attack.

Jelavic closed the keeper down, the ball went free and Victor was slow in anticipating the loose ball. Tracking back was poor and almost let in his marker but for a poor final ball. But as Jim states, he isn't a right-sided player and maybe we should put a player, whatever his experience, into a position where he is comfortable in.

Moyes does tend to lean towards square pegs in round holes, perhaps at the expense of a budding talent getting a chance.

Si Cooper
159 Posted 13/01/2013 at 22:32:42
Ian, surely all footballers are attack-minded to a degree? Even goalkeepers like to release the ball to people breaking quickly and will join the attack at desperate times. Likewise, all are defensively-minded to a degree as well. The object is to score more / concede less than others. The distinction you are floundering around is their ability / comfort doing either attacking or defending.

Typically you stretch the opposing view into the realms of absurdity, rather than dealing with it as presented. No-one has asked for wholesale changes at half-time, but people do believe the changes could have been made substantially earlier and different personnel were available who some of us would have been interested to see.

How many times has Oviedo been tried on the right and by what yardstick are you judging his failure in that position? It is certainly much less often than Naismith and the glimpses we have had of the lad have been more promising to boot. Other people have already pointed out that we potentially do have youngsters that could have made a difference. I will take their word for it rather than yours if you don't mind.

We apparently had 5 attempts on target yesterday (and 8 off). Hardly a good number against a team who parked the bus. Please enlighten me with what Phil Neville did on the pitch for 61 minutes that Hitzlsperger is incapable of. Out of those two who would you fancy to create something out of nothing 25 yards out from goal (which could have been the difference yesterday)?

David Price
160 Posted 13/01/2013 at 23:01:31
Looking at our stats for the last 38 Premier League games.
Won 17, Drawn 17, Lost 4. Points 68. That would have been enough for 5th, 1 behind Spurs and 2 behind Arsenal in 3rd.

Being as unbiased as possible we should have won 10 of those draws. The mind boggles what a difference a few quid will make; then again, Moyes is useless and half our team is hopeless according to some on here. Interesting to see what they make of those actual stats.

Ian Bennett
161 Posted 13/01/2013 at 23:07:52
Si - I got told that the 8 players weren't attacking, well I think he is wrong and most would agree. Moyes got enough attacking players on the pitch, the players just didn't deliver that bit of magic when it mattered.

In terms of Neville in midfield, I am not a massive fan if I am honest. Hitzsberger is marginally better, but when we were looking to win the game I think he made the right call in neither being involved for the last 25 mins.

Patrick Murphy
163 Posted 13/01/2013 at 23:32:29
David yes them stats are fantastic but you have to remember that only the 38 games in a given season are what matters. All this fourth best in the year 2012 means nothing.

As for those who are saying that Everton are not playing well, they do in my opinion have some merit. I suppose if we had nicked a draw at Newcastle and then beat Swansea at home we would have had the same number of points but a feel good factor would have been in evidence, but when Everton get a positive result i.e. Newcastle away they invariably follow it up with a disappointing one like yesterday.

Only in the Chelsea game out of the last half dozen or so matches have we played the sort of football that we are capable of, even if the result was a negative one. The league this season is probably one of the poorest in quality for some time if not in the entire history of the PL and that is what is making it highly competitive.

It will take one of the teams out of the chasing pack to put together a run of five or six wins to almost guarantee 4th spot, given that Chelsea look like being in the top 3 along with the Manchester clubs.

Can we honestly say that we are truly capable of being that team, the one who takes the bull by the horns and says right lads we're having this?

Like many other supporters I would like to see Mirallas back in the side, but I also think his influence has been overstated as he has only started 9 PL games and completed only 7 which hardly makes him the player of the season — unless of course he gets into double figures goalscoring wise in the remaining 16 PL fixtures.

John Crawley
164 Posted 13/01/2013 at 23:45:32
David, unfortunately (and disgracefully) he isn't going to get that money. So, in order to turn those draws into wins, he need to make the best use possible of the squad that he has.

Crucially that involves making the best use of his substitutions and changing his tactics. To do that he needs to be more flexible in his approach. He is almost a completely reactive manager and it is holding him back. He's a good manager... the question should be: Is he a good enough manager?

Rory Slingo
165 Posted 13/01/2013 at 23:51:06
Did anyone watch Costa Rica during the World Cup Qualifiers? Oviedo got skinned a few times down the left by the Mexican right-winger. He didn't have the pace to catch up so he fouled him a lot and gave away a few free kicks on that side. Seeing as how Swansea were trying to hit us on the break on Saturday, Moyes is probably justified in not playing Oviedo. At one point in the second half Pienaar was all the way over at the right corner flag defending. Perhaps what Moyes sees in training doesn't fill him with confidence yet that Oviedo will track back in time to cover our attacking fullbacks?
Si Cooper
166 Posted 14/01/2013 at 00:35:52
Jim (#549) - watched the game live on Sky and then again later (with remote in hand) because I had Sky+'d it.
All I can say was if you didn't see how the Chelsea midfield assumed control after about 30 minutes without really getting out of third gear, then you must be amazed how we didn't win that game as well. We played well but it was easy to see to see where Chelsea out-classed us.

I have written quite a lot recently about the way people avoid a proper debate by the tactic of shoving peoples valid comments into the realms of absurd extremism. Unfortunately, you have done the same here with your Ossie, Pip and Jela references which you include in your rebuff of me even though I have never expressed anything like 'vastly overrated', 'the worst player in the league' or 'is now rubbish because of Moyes'. Tactically inept is also too strong a term when people are simply questioning what they see as certain recurring habits / traits. There may be some that hold the extreme views you have listed, but I am not one and most of the 'negative' comments on this thread don't fall into that category either.

You shouldn't sling mud, but if you are prepared to do it choose your targets carefully.

Si Cooper
167 Posted 14/01/2013 at 02:25:49
Rory, people were interested to see whether Oviedo could have given us an increased threat on the right, not sticking him on at full back.
Si Cooper
168 Posted 14/01/2013 at 02:27:58
Rory, people were interested to see whether Oviedo could have given us an increased threat on the right, not sticking him on at full back. Given the minimal threat that Swansea posed in the second half it seems that he could have risked him in front of Coleman. A team only looking to break is less of a threat if you can keep them pinned back around their own area.

Didn't see the international you mentioned. How much help was Oviedo getting from his midfield? Haven't seen anything from him so far that would suggest he is work-shy or doesn't get the tracking-back thing. Most of the responsibility in covering for a full-back who has gone upfield should fall on the central defenders and the defensive midfielders. Your attacking wide men are expected to be upfront when we are attacking and only really get back if the fullback has gone beyond them or the opposing fullback is foraying forwards.

Saturday should have been about us looking to dictate the game and get three points, not being cautious in the fear we would lose one.

Rory Slingo
169 Posted 14/01/2013 at 02:40:01
Si, sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not suggesting sticking him on as fullback. I was suggesting that if played as a winger (whichever side) he wouldn't be quick enough to come back and help out the defense on a Swansea counter. He played left wing for Costa Rica when he gave away those free kicks.
Rory Slingo
170 Posted 14/01/2013 at 02:55:54
Si, Baines and Coleman are always foraying forwards, dribbling up to the corner flags for crosses. Pienaar and Distin cover well for Baines but we don't have as strong a partnership on the right. Maybe Moyes just feels safer with Anichebe/Naismith at the moment? I only saw caught the second half on Saturday but I thought we were dictating the game. Didn't feel we were being cautious at all, we just couldn't find the net. Sure, you could say Moyes could've been even more attacking by playing Oviedo on the right but it's all about balance in the side, isn't it? In the main, I think he's got it right this season.
Si Cooper
171 Posted 14/01/2013 at 03:12:34
I am looking at one game not the season Rory, but all that has gone before will be wasted if we don't take our chances to win games when the opportunity arises.

Swansea showed very little threat for the majority of the game so I don't think we should have based our tactics on that, and as I have said it was about going for the three points and risking the one we had. Oviedo certainly isn't slow and is definitely quicker than Naismith from what I have seen. Maybe the Mexican lad was really rapid. Was his surname Gonzalez?

Baines naturally overlaps Pienaar, but only when he is implicitly invited to do so. At that stage their right wing threat has to cover back and Pienaar can fill in behind Baines easily if necessary. Coleman tends to get to the by-line even more frequently than Baines because he is the only one on that side who will. It should be relatively easy for Coleman and Oviedo to operate in a similar manner to Baines and Pienaar (maybe expecting less fluency due to less ability) and it would give the opposition another orchestrared threat to consider. Like Pienaar, Oviedo would tend to drift inside on occasion as he is naturally left-footed (Pienaar being right-footed on the left).

It is just an idea of something that was available to be tried, but I don't know why the thought of it would give anyone the heebie-jeebies.

Roman Sidey
172 Posted 14/01/2013 at 03:20:55
Ian, first you wriggle out of criticising Moyes' tactics by telling me there were eight attacking players on the field. I give you my opinion of those players, and you accuse me of wriggling out of the argument. Bollocks. Why did you pick the number eight? Is it because you understand every player besides the 'keeper and two centre halves as attacking player? Well, in this particular game Jagielka and Distin both had chances to score, and Howard has scored a goal in the last 12 months, so is he an attacking player? I just can't believe that you think that Moyes showed his intent on the game by having "eight attacking players" on the field at the end. It's one of the most misleading statistics I think you could ever put forward.

The other thing you pulled me up on is just not true. I didn't advocate taking Baines or Pienaar off. I implied that they had been shut down, so moving Pienaar right and bringing Oviedo on might have been a good move.

As for your "hindsight manager" comment. I've said this, but I'll say it again: it is so predictable that it is no longer hindsight. You can check the live thread for how many of us knew Moyes wouldn't change things until around 70, and that it would be Naismith coming on, and that Vellios might get 5-10 minutes. There were also a very large number of us who could see a 0-0 scoreline once Swansea decided to shut up shop. How come our wealthiest of managers couldn't see it?

David Price, yes, I do mean semi-attacking. True, a fullback does get in on the attacking, and yes, both of ours have scored goals. However, you could bet your bottom dollar that our flawless manager views them as defenders first.

"One of those days", "we dominated the game", "we're creating plenty of chances". I'm fucking sick of hearing it. Some people on here have been celebrating 2-1 wins over crap teams like we've beaten United at OT.

Ian Bennett
173 Posted 14/01/2013 at 07:39:49
Roman - I classed those 8 as they can perform an attacking role. Coleman can play right midfield, some suggested he does for this match, and baines creates probably as many assists as anyone else on the pitch. I can go through the rest, but clearly I am not going to waste my breath on them that cannot see.

In terms of demanding the substitutions, is this the same group that demand it every week, with their knee jerk reaction and cat calling over every mistake. The enlightened group, hell I am glad that some watch it on the net because I'd hate listening to that pissing and moaning at the match.

Roman Sidey
174 Posted 14/01/2013 at 08:06:12
I watch it on the TV, Ian, for which I pay a subscription, where that 20m extra TV money will come from next season, Ian.

It's not knee jerk reacting. It's noticing that Neville was playing probably the worst game he's played in a blue shirt, and the manager not acting accordingly. Let me ask you this: if we have a home game against a team that is in its second season in the Premier League, at least two players on our team that a) aren't playing good enough football, and b) probably worse than the other 20 players on the field, and at the end of the game it's 0-0 with one of our three usable subs still sat on the bench, do you think that the manager has made the right decisions on the day?

If your answer is yes, then there's no point continuing this debate. If your answer is no, then I don't know why we're debating in the first place.

Steve King
175 Posted 14/01/2013 at 09:42:14
Where I was sat in the Gwaldys Street we were all convinced we should have had a penalty for a push on Jelavic. They didn't even show it on MOTD?!!
Has anyone seen a reply of it?
Paul David
176 Posted 14/01/2013 at 10:54:35
Ian

You could just as easy say we finished with 11 defensive players on the pitch as the manager demands all must defend.

Harold Matthews
177 Posted 14/01/2013 at 08:16:07
Well said, Si... Pleased you are aware of our left-wing setup. Accelerating up the touchline, Baines feeds Pienaar who then cuts inside taking defenders with him. Suddenly, almost telepathically, he right-foot reverse-passes the ball into the path of Baines. This definitely slipped past Mr Moyes for when the little fella went to Spurs he tried to replace him with a string of left-footers.

So, as you said Si: Why not Oviedo and Coleman? With practice it would work.

Rory... Point noted, mate. Thanks.

Oviedo is a terrific crosser of the ball and always tries to pass with accuracy and intelligence. He also appears to be quite nippy but, after reading your post, I will hold fire on that issue. Hopefully the Mexican was an Aaron Lennon type flying machine.

One thing is certain: with both feet tied together, he is still faster and better than Naismith.

As for the match... Coleman and Jelavic put in a shift but the very game striker looked leg-weary. The others never reached full throttle. Too much football perhaps... Who can tell?

According to Jags and Ossie, we are now entering the period when their bodies begin to feel the effect of constant physical exertion and one or two looked pretty legless on Saturday.

Will Mr Moyes continue in the normal manner or will he rotate? Silly question.

Mike Powell
178 Posted 14/01/2013 at 13:14:13
Roman,

Moyes picked the right team. We were well on top, it just would not go in for us. Not one of them players on the bench were better than the ones on the pitch.

If we had lost the game or played badly, then you can have a go at Moyes; we have only lost three games this season and we are 5th in the league — I just don't understand your logic.

Yes, Steve, I sit in the Gwaldys Street... I thought it was a penalty; MotD never shows anything like that about us but you can bet if it was the other way round they would've shown it.

Jim Knightley
179 Posted 14/01/2013 at 14:22:03
Si...what is wrong with you? when did I say my entire post was aimed at you? I referenced you in respect to Osman, after you claimed:

'In regard to recent performances all I can say is that my opinion in you weren't watching the majority of the Chelsea game particularly closely...'

The basis of your comment assumes the primacy of your view over mine, with an implicit suggestion that I hadn't watch the game properly, or I would have realized Osman hadn't played well. It is a very childish manner of constructing an argument.

Many of my other comments clearly were not aimed at you... but other posters in this thread. Do you struggle with your ego? or am I not allowed to direct my comments to other posters in this thread?

Absolute pathetic. And you talk of slinging mud.

Douglas Turner
180 Posted 14/01/2013 at 15:28:18
Mike (658) Not sure I agree with you on Moyes team selection! I'd have had Nev on the Bench (OR SOLD) and Hitz in Midfield! IMO it lost us the game! Infact Nev's getting to be a liability of late! Pisses me off when everyon's still got mad love for the guy and forgives his cockups week in week out! What's the deal?
Roman Sidey
181 Posted 14/01/2013 at 16:55:57
Mike Powell, so a 0-0 home result to a team below us is acceptable by your standards? It's exactly this sort of result that is holding us back from being a genuine top 4 contender. Of the five games we've drawn at home, Swansea, Norwich and Newcastle are games that we definitely SHOULD have won. That's six points better off, and 3rd place on the ladder.
Si Cooper
182 Posted 14/01/2013 at 16:45:27
Jim - Look at what you wrote and how you wrote it. Your riposte to my post flows seamlessly (i.e. it is all the same paragraph) into an overly extreme characterisation of what the vast majority of the Moyes questioners have actually posted on this thread. It looks like an association to me (whether you are doing it consciously or not) and I would expect a lot of people reading that post would assume I had made those comments at some stage.

It has become an unfortunate fact that if you dare question anything the manager does on this site you are automatically lumped in with the MOB. That simply is not a fair representation of what a lot of those posters have said and people need to stop doing it. To question my ego and call me pathetic for asking for such a moderate thing perhaps says more about you than it does me.

As for the obvious fact that we can watch the same game and come away with different impressions, well we just have to agree to disagree. The things that convince you don't convince me, and vice versa. Vive la difference, as some might say.

Tony J Williams
183 Posted 14/01/2013 at 17:28:14
"Mike Powell, so a 0-0 home result to a team below us is acceptable by your standards? " - Where has he said that? He is talking about not understanding all the posters going apoplectic about not getting the 3 points.

The team was right, we should have won had Fellaini not passed the ball to the goalie, had Jelavic connected better after the fantastic turn, etc etc.

Laudrup has come out and said it was a brilliant point at Goodison, not really an advertisement for us playing poorly really.

Mark Stone
184 Posted 14/01/2013 at 17:38:30
"Mike Powell, so a 0-0 home result to a team below us is acceptable by your standards? It's exactly this sort of result that is holding us back from being a genuine top 4 contender. Of the five games we've drawn at home, Swansea, Norwich and Newcastle are games that we definitely SHOULD have won. That's six points better off, and 3rd place on the ladder."

Yeah but at the same time Spurs fans will be looking at the home defeat to Wigan, and home draws with Stoke, Norwich and West Brom and saying 'well if we'd won those games we'd be 9 points better off and further clear of Everton'. And Chelsea fans would be saying 'well if we'd not been beaten at home by QPR and been held at home by Fulham we'd be 4 points better of' etc etc etc. Argument doesn't really hold up unless all results go exactly as expected - and what a shit game football would be then, hey?!

Roman Sidey
185 Posted 14/01/2013 at 18:04:36
"If we had lost the game or played badly, then you can have a go at Moyes; we have only lost three games this season and we are 5th in the league — I just don't understand your logic." Read that as you like, Tony, but I see that as saying that we can't criticise the manager after a 0-0 draw at home.

Mark Stone, Spurs fans can say whatever the fuck they want, but we SHOULD be at least six points better off just from three home games we SHOULD have won.

Kevin Hudson
186 Posted 14/01/2013 at 18:34:03
"Should," doesn't come into it, Roman, points have to earned.

Also, the ref & linesman robbed us of two perfectly legal goals against the Toon.

Si Cooper
187 Posted 14/01/2013 at 18:15:51
Tony (#712) - who is going 'apopleptic'? Most people you are aiming that thinly disguised insult at are simply asking reasonable questions about the timing of the substitutions and the personnel used compared to those not used.

We had something like 5 attempts on target and 8 off which is not a great deal considering their attacking ambitions were minimal. Scoring goals is generally a bit of a numbers game; the more tickets you buy the better your chance of winning the raffle. The fact that some chances were missed should be considered as fairly standard, and it doesn't automatically add up to a job well done.

Fair enough, the manager picks a team based on what he expects to face in any given game, but that is only part of his job on the day isn't it? As the game wore on was there nothing in the way the game was going to suggest that it may be better to try something different, to ramp things up and try to generate some more good opportunities? He eventually did make changes but they were later in the game than they might have been and some options were passed over. Is that not something we are entitled to question / comment on?

Mark Stone
188 Posted 14/01/2013 at 18:49:42
Roman, my point is that whilst you are correct (i.e. we should have won those games), the reality is that every team in the world drops points in games they would be expected to win. It's the nature of the game. It is nonsensical to say that had we won all the games that we would be expected to have won, we would be above Spurs, unless Spurs themselves had won all the games that they would have been expected to have won. Capiche?
Roman Sidey
189 Posted 14/01/2013 at 18:54:11
Kevin, your post adds nothing to this debate. I know points have to be earned, and in those games we SHOULD have earned three points, but we didn't, for several reasons. The Newcastle game, for me, was down to going to sleep in the 90th minute, similar to the Nowrich game. Against Swansea, Moyes SHOULD have seen what was happening and changed things around a little to EARN three points.

Andy Meighan
190 Posted 14/01/2013 at 18:28:10
Go and ask any fan of any club in the Prem (apart from them snidey bastards across the park) what they think of Everton and I'll tell you what the stock answer will be: "Oh, Everton... good side, got a great manager, hard to beat, strong etc etc etc."

I was frustrated as anyone by Saturday's game but, as someone rightly pointed out, if we'd have drawn at Newcastle and beat Swansea there wouldn't have been as much negativity on the site. If anyone would have offered us fifth in the middle of January, hanging on the coat tails of the Champions League places we'd bit their hand off.

I know of one team who'd gladly swap places with us... Hey, hey!!!

Kevin Hudson
191 Posted 14/01/2013 at 19:05:22
Roman,

What you charitably refer to as a "debate," is essentially a recitation of the 'shoulda... woulda... coulda' mantra.

Roman Sidey
192 Posted 14/01/2013 at 18:58:01
Ho caputo, Mark. I'll acknowledge that all teams drop points when expected not to, which is why I'm not using every game we've dropped unexpected points in to make my point. I'm simply using three home games where a win seemed like a pretty fair result, which would have put us on 43 points. I'll moderate my claim to be in 3rd, to "a chance to be in 3rd". As it stands, we dropped those points and are now back in 5th of our own volition.

If we're to consider every team in the world's results before me make a statement, let's all acknowledge that had Expanyol not lost to 20th placed Albacete in 04-05, then they would have finished above Villareal, and we might have beaten them in the quals.

Jim Knightley
193 Posted 14/01/2013 at 19:25:48
I think it says a lot about you Si, that you would question whether I watched the match accurately, after coming up with a different conclusion. That is not a 'agree to disagree logic'...it is not a referral to statistics as validation, it is simply a belief in the utter primacy of your argument

And there were two key clues I wasn't relating my post directly to you. Firstly, the fact that I referenced several other general notions in this thread, which you yourself had not claimed... I thought therefore it would have been self evident that I was referring to other posters, wouldn't you?. I also referred to people... if I was talking to you, I would have referred to you directly, as I did previously.

And Si... be careful about constantly quoting your '5' shots on target stat. BBC (often the most reliable source on the web), list us having 8 shots on target, and 16 overall. Incidentally, the BBC also list Chelski as having 11 shots overall and 9 on target against Stoke... in a match they won 0-4. Therefore trying to disregard our efforts based on your particular shots on target stat, seems misinformed at best.

Interestingly, using your logic and BBC stats, I wonder how many Premier League clubs had more than 16 shots in their matches this weekend? I'd be surprised if it was more than 25%.

Ian Bennett
194 Posted 14/01/2013 at 19:34:14
Roman 602 – you say that he did not act accordingly, didn't he sub Neville at 69 minutes? I would say that was acting accordingly. He might of taken him off 5 or 10 minutes earlier, but it's not as if we had much better on the bench, which ultimately is the issue.

To answer your question on subs, it would depend if I thought that they would make a difference. My personal view is that, ha ha, those 8 attacking players were more likely to score a goal than Oviedo, Mucha, Hitzlsperger, Duffy, and Kennedy. If Moyes had a Hernandez, Nani, Welbeck etc on the bench I would totally agree with you. However, Everton have a first team squad of about 13 / 14 players. Once we start dipping in after that the quality isn't there. What amazes me most is that in some recent games we have got away with that point - 10 out of 15 points ain't bad for a squad hit by injuries and suspensions.

I take my point back on the message boards, I am also an offender.

Roman Sidey
195 Posted 14/01/2013 at 20:11:20
Ian, if that's your opinion, then that's your opinion. I think Neville should have been taken off at half time (before really, but I know Moyes wouldn't do that) for Hitz. It's been said so many times on this thread that it's really getting boring, but Pienaar and Baines had been shut down, so switching Pienaar and bringing Oviedo on couldn't have made things worse, as well as bringing Vellios, who linked up with Jelavic quite well, on earlier might have gotten that extra push we so dearly needed.

The biggest issue on this thread is that some people view a draw at home when we've played well as a positive, whilst some of us view a draw at home when we've played well as a massive disappointment, and two wasted points.

Ian Bennett
196 Posted 14/01/2013 at 20:55:11
Roman - the three things that stood out for me on Saturday was that Laudrap snuffed us out on the left hand side by playing 2 right backs. I hope others don't follow this tactic.

The second was that we had no threat on the right without Mirallas giving us that option to try the other side with Coleman The third thing is that without Gibson, the ball delivery is too slow and too short.

These three things cost us the 3 points IMO. Neville, Hitzlsperger, Naismith, Victor aren't up to breaking down well drilled teams, and will mostly cost us 2 points.

Jim Knightley
197 Posted 14/01/2013 at 21:05:18
Roman...I'm not sure how many agree that a draw at home is positive... I simply think some people contextualise it differently from others. For me, many people seem to think the draw is disappointing, but not the end of the world, as Swansea are a good team, and we, on the balance of play, deserved three points(my position). But for some reason, unless one expresses wholescale disappointment, that is represented by others, and potentially yourself included, as believing a draw is a positive result.

I agree with you on Velios though...I think he has looked lively in brief flurries lately. I don't think the Moyes substitution of Neville was particularly late, but I think Anichebe, whilst deserving his start, should have come off for Velios with at least 15minutes left.

Roman Sidey
198 Posted 14/01/2013 at 21:16:38
Jim, I actually agree with everything you just said. It's just one draw too many for me, and I'm at breaking point watching some of these players absolutely take the piss. I'd rather we blooded a newer player (newer, not necessarily younger) than persist with Neville who is no longer good enough, and the absolute donkey Naismith.
Jim Knightley
199 Posted 14/01/2013 at 22:12:21
Yes I'm frustrated with Naismith too...he is being played out of position, but his lack of pace, and touch is distinctly Championship. He has an eye for goal, which may/has come in useful, and works hard...but the difference between him and Mirallas is night and day. I'm really hoping we bring a natural right sided player on loan this window, because at the moment, it's just a case of picking who we think can play ok there.
Roman Sidey
200 Posted 14/01/2013 at 22:17:03
Spot on, Jim. The thing is, we've needed a right sided player for eight years now.
Sam Hoare
201 Posted 14/01/2013 at 22:32:02
I love the idea that baines is only semi attacking....
Si Cooper
202 Posted 14/01/2013 at 22:25:14
I am not sure there is much point replying to you Jim, because as I have experienced before you skim through posts, find what you consider a point of weakness and totally ignore the rest or any context included.

It was you who first challenged my point of view that Ossie could do with a decent back-up player as he has started to flag somewhat (see your post at 414), essentially asserting the primacy of your view over mine (but I didn't take offence because that is what debating is all about). Of course you ignored the rest of my post and took me to task for that opinion. I gave my view of of the games I had been referring to in my first post (giving reasons for my conclusions on the particular player while you just make statements about the midfield in general) and so you made out I had only seen MotD highlights and rolled that comment into a diatribe about a group of people that don't exist on this thread other than inside your head. Here it is, just as you wrote it:

"And Si... all I can say is that I was watching the Chelski game more closely than you. In the game I watched, we won the central midfield battle in general, and were the better team despite a patched-up starting 11. I wonder sometimes whether some people watch highlights on MotD, and then imagine our players are so much worse than other teams... and that we are fifth despite carrying 2/3 players a match, and with a manager who is tactically inept. Problem is, I suppose our position, and our finances contradict that... but oo well, let's forget about those. Neville is the worse player in this league, Osman is vastly overrated, Jelavic is now rubbish because of Moyes etc etc."

So where is the reference to other people, the clear distinction that the second part of the paragraph isn't about the person mentioned in the first part?

So you brush that off as nonsense, but you always need to come back on the offensive. So now the fact that I say I disagree with you, think you may have overlooked some aspects of the game, and give my reasons why (always saying it is my opinion) I am childish! Added to that I have ego issues and am absolutely pathetic.

Then I respond to someone else's comment over the fact that some good chances weren't taken (missing the point that it was because those chances were missed that we still had job to do in the last half hour of the game) and deliberately make sure it is clear that I don't know whether the figures are accurate or not, and suddenly I am a statistics freak and disregarding our efforts! Are you deliberately misreading what I have written / ignoring the context that I include?

Then you bring up Stoke versus Chelsea? Did Stoke park the bus like Swansea (can you even really compare the defensive qualities of such different teams)? And what does Chelsea's figures show except they had a much better conversion rate? Certainly doesn't prove that we didn't need to try something on Saturday to raise the number of chances we created in a game we were comfortable in. Other team's statistics are immaterial in respect of Everton v Swansea on 12th Jan 2013; the choices our manager made in the timing of substitutions and who he chose are not.

Peter Warrington
203 Posted 15/01/2013 at 04:17:24
To Steve's unanswered question at post 618 regarding the Jelavic non-penalty, it didn't look like much on the replay. (But, then, I thought Baines had run through that guy for his yellow, until the replay showed he was in fact obstructed and should have got a free, not a card.)

I still think Fellaini's two scuffs and Osman's free header miss were the key; if we had gone ahead in the first half hour, they would have had to open up a bit and we may have scored 3 or 4. Early misses are as bad as late misses, such as Jelly's this game and against Chelsea. sometimes worse.

Surely Vellios has shown enough to get a start somewhere, sometime? He has presence, and a canny/arsey touch. Anichebe's improved this year, but Vellios might be anything given a chance – he might be toilet, or the new Paul Warhurst.

I am also saying Nay to Naismith; I think he would struggle to get a game in the A-League here in Australia. And that's saying something...

Ian Bennett
204 Posted 15/01/2013 at 07:16:08
Victor deserved his start. He's played fairly well in recent weeks, with a real mature performance against Newcastle. He's scored goals/assists and his attitude appears better.

Moyes may well cash in, however whilst the above is an improvement Moyes has to start him over others who haven't offered the same level of performance. Vellios played for 12 minutes on Saturday (not a huge amount, but not a pitance either), so did he impress you enough that he deserved more next time?

Peter Warrington
205 Posted 15/01/2013 at 08:59:05
Ian, yes, he impressed me enough. nearly always has. He may well struggle if started or if he gets 30+ mins as a sub. I think he and Jelavic would do well upfront together, especially against the weaker teams.

I prefer to find out than die wondering.

Roman Sidey
206 Posted 15/01/2013 at 11:03:51
Sam, "I love the idea that Baines is only semi-attacking...." That's a stupid, pointless comment and you know it. He's a defender. You know it, he knows it, and Moyes definitely knows it.
Jim Knightley
207 Posted 15/01/2013 at 11:26:37
Still can't get it eh Si? There is a difference between giving an opinion based on my reading of a match...and suggesting a person wasn't watch a match properly? you can see that surely? that is your argument style unfortunately it seems.

With respect to the stats...no context is ignored. Didn't you use stats to make an argument? Was this not your quote?

'We had something like 5 attempts on target and 8 off which is not a great deal considering their attacking ambitions were minimal. Scoring goals is generally a bit of a numbers game; the more tickets you buy the better your chance of winning the raffle'

and, didn't you also write this?

'We apparently had 5 attempts on target yesterday (and 8 off). Hardly a good number against a team who parked the bus.'

Im sorry...but it seems to me there, that you've used a stat to make a point...and I can't suggest that your point is invalid because I don't agree with your source? are you for real? there is only one person on here ignoring the context.... My point about Chelsea is simple...as is the other comments regarding the amount of shots other teams had this weekend...in the Swansea match we showed 1) attacking intent 2) did enough to win. I also have no idea when I made out you was a statistic freak... but I suppose you can criticize people for ignoring parts of your argument (which I do not feel I have done), but its fine to suggest I've taken a position which I haven't? All I have done, is simply illustrate that a point you've taken, based on statistics is erroneous, because the statistics you've used are contradicted by other news organisations, including the BBC, who I have always considered, with validity, to be the most reliable.

And i've stated on a couple of occasions now that I wasn't referring to you..I used your Osman point to move into another...it doesn't mean it was directed at you. As I've stated, again several times, I specifically referred to comments which other posters had made on this forum, none of which came from you. You never said Osman was overrated...Paul did. I was referring to his comment, and I was referring to others with my other statements. It's not my fault you haven't read this thread is it? surely I can move between points, without directing everything towards you? I would have thought that by referring to other people's points, rather than yours, it would have been self-evident!!

Si...you manner of constructing an argument is strange. You attack people for misreading..but do so yourself. For instance, not in relation to our argument, Ian stated: 'Moyes finished the game with 8 attack minded players on the park on Saturday'

I don't think that is a comment to disagree with..Baines and Osman are attacking minded, as opposed to more defensively minded full backs. Osman/Fellaini/Jelavic/Naismith/Pienaar and Velios are also attacking minded.

But your retort to Ian was:

'Ian, surely all footballers are attack-minded to a degree? Even goalkeepers like to release the ball to people breaking quickly and will join the attack at desperate times. Likewise, all are defensively-minded to a degree as well. The object is to score more / concede less than others. The distinction you are floundering around is their ability / comfort doing either attacking or defending.'

So you take a person reasonable argument and transform it bizzarely... you suggest goalkeepers are attacking minded to a degree...a bizzare proposition if one is to put any real emphasis on degree. So you transform a perfectly reasonable comment, which makes reference to 'attack-minded' not only purely attacking, and then use it to give a lecture which ignores the perfectly reasonable fundamental of the point in the first place.

And you moan about other people? Are you and Ciaran brothers? because your similarities are almost uncanny...

I'm entirely with you btw Ian. Teams are constructed on the basis of attack minded or defensive minded players. If a team has two defensive full backs, who are not given license to attack, they can play in a different fashion. Chelski under Mourinho for instance, kept their defensive minded players constrained, and attacked with the front four (or so). Recently, under Moyes, we've employed two attacking full backs in Baines and Coleman... in doing so, we give ourselves somewhat of a defensive problem, which necessitates at least one holding midfield, to protect against the counter attacking/break. After the 69th minute, we swapped our primary defensively minded midfield, Neville, for an attack midfielder, despite a Swansea team who have significant counter-attacking ability. I don't see taking Neville off in the 69th minute is an issue...not when the alternative, widely been touted, is Hitz...who has looked off the pace in practically every match ive seen him in. If Moyes had taken Neville off in the last 10...it would have been late. But he didn't...he took him off, with 25minutes (Given an expectation of 4mins injury time) to go.

Roman Sidey
208 Posted 15/01/2013 at 18:59:37
Peter, "I prefer to find out than die wondering." That sums up my approach to following Everton or any team in any sport for that matter.
Ian Bennett
209 Posted 15/01/2013 at 20:13:41
Cheers jim. Semi attacking baines and attacking goal keepers, good grief, people will say anything to give Moyes any faint of credit that he had his best side on the pitch.

Peter - I like him as well. I wish he'd score a couple as he seems a mobile foil for jelavic.

Roman Sidey
210 Posted 15/01/2013 at 21:01:30
You missed the point with the attacking goal keeper comment, didn't you, Ian.
Ian Bennett
211 Posted 15/01/2013 at 21:09:43
No Roman — it was just nonsense.
John Crawley
212 Posted 15/01/2013 at 20:55:31
Jim, I think you are really taking part of what Si wrote and then criticsing him without being honest about the second part of what he wrote. So you say that "There is a difference between giving an opinion based on my reading of a match... and suggesting a person wasn't watch a match properly? You can see that surely? That is your argument style unfortunately it seems."

Well that wasn't really what he was saying was it? Here's what he said:

"In regard to recent performances all I can say is that my opinion in you weren't watching the majority of the Chelsea game particularly closely because he was dispossessed far too easily and simply bypassed or run past pretty much at will."

So he makes it clear that it is his opinion and then gives you examples as to why he doesn't think you were watching the game particularly closely. That seems a pretty fair way of making an argument to me.

Ian Bennett
213 Posted 15/01/2013 at 21:25:22
An impartial piece from some bloggers who look at opta stats. Get a coffee and read up on the Swansea games:
The starting line-ups and formations of both teams reflected a plan especially made for their opponents on the day.

Everton’s 4-4-1-1 vs. Swansea’s 4-2-3-1

Swansea manager Michael Laudrup deployed Nathan Dyer as the centre forward in a bid to use his pace to implement the team’s counter-attacking ploy, while the in-form Michu played in what he claims is his preferred position just behind the striker. Dwight Tiendalli started at right-back for The Swans but Angel Rangel, who is the Welsh side’s first-choice right-back, was deployed on the right side of midfield to counter the lethal pairing of Steven Pienaar and Leighton Baines on Everton’s left.

In the absence of Darren Gibson, Moyes fielded Phil Neville (like he did against Newcastle) instead of Thomas Hitzlsperger (who started against Chelsea) to lend a bit of industry to Everton’s central midfield against a side known for its incisive passing. Moyes also chose to use Victor Anichebe over both Steven Naismith and Bryan Oviedo on the right flank, suggesting that an emphasis was placed on exploiting Swansea’s aerial problems from set-pieces and open play.

The match was an open affair with neither side choosing to really press the opposition without the ball. While it was a typical Everton performance, Swansea’s was a highly uncharacteristic one – extremely defensive, defending very deep, ineffective in possession and no pressing high up the pitch.

As a result, Everton were allowed to make a massive 69.7% of their passes in the attacking half and 38.4% in the final third. Everton centre-back Phil Jagielka was allowed time and space to carry the ball forward. He attempted the most number of passes in the match (78) with an accuracy of 87%. More tellingly, 38 of those were made in the attacking half and 19 were made in the final third, which are huge numbers for a central defender.

The lack of pressing also meant that the away side did not win possession back in their attacking third even once in the match. They relied solely on counter-attacks and gambled on quick and incisive passing to produce a goal, and came close when Michu’s chip over Tim Howard struck the bar – a move that consisted of only three quick passes from back to front.

Swansea have averaged 75% passing accuracy in the attacking half this season, but were only a lowly 67% in this game due to the lack of numbers they had going forward. This, in turn, affected their ability to create chances – only 4 in comparison to Everton’s 16 chances.

When Laudrup set his stall out to defend deep, he was essentially gambling on the competence of his defenders, especially his two centre-backs. In reality though, it was Everton’s incompetence in front of goal that allowed Swansea to keep a clean sheet. Swansea City worked overtime to fend Everton off, making 50 clearances – exactly twice as many as the home side.

Although centre-backs Ashley Williams and Chico Flores made 32 clearances between them and the latter was arguably Swansea’s best player, they did ride their luck. Everton were completely dominant in the air. The home side won a massive 71% of their aerial duels in the match and won 65% of aerial duels when competing directly with Swansea’s defensive four. The home team should’ve scored at least one, if not two, goals. Gilt-edged chances were missed by Nikica Jelavic, Leon Osman and Sylvain Distin, and both Jelavic and Anichebe also saw their headers cleared off the line.

It is well-documented that the majority of Everton’s attacks come down the left flank. Swansea’s two right-backs (one of them placed as a right winger) certainly did keep Baines – the most prolific creator of chances in the league – relatively quiet. Everton responded to this ploy by increasing numbers on the left wing with Nikica Jelavic and Marouane Fellaini often overloading that flank in an attempt to free up Baines.

Such is the quality and importance of the English left-back though, that he did manage to create 7 of Everton’s 16 chances (3 from open play) but his trademark lung-busting runs into the penalty box were missing since he was well tracked throughout the game.

David Moyes’s side has always been lopsided in attack, favouring the left more than the right due to the difference in quality of players on either flank. But with the curious selection of Anichebe on the right wing and his natural habit of drifting naturally into the centre, right-back Seamus Coleman was offered little to no support in attack. Moyes did address this situation but perhaps too late in the game.

Steven Naismith was introduced into the game in place of Phil Neville with twenty minutes left on the clock, which meant Anichebe joined Jelavic upfront and Fellaini dropped into centre midfield alongside Osman. The rest of the substitutes were like for like swaps except for when Jonathan De Guzman replaced Nathan Dyer to shore up the away side’s midfield, which meant Michu shifted further forward.

It wasn’t the pretty performance that we have been accustomed to seeing from the Welsh club, but it has now been effective in two tough away matches – Stamford Bridge being the first. “For two games now, Wednesday and today, we didn’t have the ball as much as we are used to and still we performed so well.” It seems Michael Laudrup is doing well in inculcating pragmatism into his side. And as long as they don’t forget their idealistic principles, it is certainly an effective weapon to possess.

Patrick Murphy
214 Posted 15/01/2013 at 21:50:13
If that's the analysis whatever must the raw data look like. I'll just go back to reading War and Peace — it'll save me time.
Michael Kenrick
215 Posted 15/01/2013 at 22:10:55
I tried to clean that up a bit Ian... but decided to cut the Chelsea part. If you really want people to read that, give us a link or post it on the Chelsea thread.
Ian Bennett
216 Posted 15/01/2013 at 22:12:15
Dont mind mk. A couple had posted some comments around Chelsea, in addition to the Swansea game. I thought both were pretty good, and were fairly constructive assessments that we were unlucky against Chelsea, and a little wasteful against Swansea.
Si Cooper
217 Posted 15/01/2013 at 22:23:40
Thanks for that John (#036) - Jim seems to have taken great exception to me standing up for my own point of view. I know I am not perfect but I always try to explain why I have formed the opinion I have, giving specific details when I can. I would expect some reference to the details I have given rather than simply a dismissive rebuttal.

The reason I referenced 'statistics' was simply to make the point that I did not actually think it was a great number. I used the terms 'apparently' and 'something like' because I fully understand that these figures often vary depending on the source, but it was 5 on target or if it was 8 it wasn't enough against a team that 'parked the bus', nor a reason for not chucking on the cavalry earlier when it was still 0-0.

There is no such thing as having done enough to win, the actual result is all that really counts. What is required to win varies from game to game, minute to minute even, and if you don't win then you didn't do enough. There is some cold comfort if you did everything you could, which is actually what people are discussing.

As for Ian's musings on what constitutes an attack-minded / attacking player (why you wouldn't prefer to have 11 on the pitch all the time, rather than just in the 'attacking' positions is beyond me) obviously Jags really does think he is just trying to reach row Z with those balls he launches forward, and Pip was practicing tackling and passing back to the goalkeeper when he nicked the ball off Seamus in their penalty area. Think I will stick with my earlier comment on this subject - "Attack-minded but not very good is not the same as attack-minded and decent."

Ian Bennett
218 Posted 16/01/2013 at 07:23:37
Si - Most teams play with a defensive midfielder, and many have questioned playing Coleman at right back. So make of that what you will.

This doesn't support your view either:-

Everton centre-back Phil Jagielka was allowed time and space to carry the ball forward. He attempted the most number of passes in the match (78) with an accuracy of 87%. More tellingly, 38 of those were made in the attacking half and 19 were made in the final third, which are huge numbers for a central defender.

87% is up there midfield stats, so how does that equate to lumping it into row z?

Si Cooper
219 Posted 16/01/2013 at 14:02:34
Ian, that was sarcasm - thought it was obvious.

My point (wholly consistent with what I have posted previously) is that all players on the pitch have dual roles and are expected to both attack and defend as required. It is differences in ability that determine how effective they are to a large extent.

The number of attacking / attack-minded players (or however you want to define them) is immaterial if the players are not good enough, playing in a position that does not suit them, or if the overall tactics are ineffective.

What those statistics you present appear to show clearly is how little threat Swansea offered all game. That shows that Phil Neville could have easily been replaced much earlier (half-time for instance) and the cavalier Bryan Oviedo rather than industrious-but-ineffective Naismith would have been a minor gamble to boot. You think the manager was adequately adventurous; some of us think he shied away from really 'going for it'.

Ian Bennett
220 Posted 16/01/2013 at 19:08:01
Si - detecting any sarcasm is a hell of task with some crack pot comments on this post.

I thought the article above was spot on when it said that Swansea got the clean sheet from our incompetence in front of goal by us. That's my opinion.

I think subbing Neville at half time at 0 - 0 is harsh, although as posted above, Naismith, Neville, hitzsberger, are all pretty average to me, the 2 of clubs in Moyes poker hand for CL. I do like Oviedo, he looks to be a good understudy to baines. I has seen Moyes try pienaar on the right and Oviedo on the left, and vice versa in a game before Christmas and it didn't really work for me. I would also agree that he would go above Naismith in the pecking order following another poor display on the right. My prediction of some goals ghosting ala Cahill haven't happened.

John Crawley
221 Posted 16/01/2013 at 20:18:20
Ian I actually think that Naismith would score goals if he played the role that Cahill played i.e. off Jelavic; unfortunately Moyes shows absolutely no inclination to actually try him there when the opportunity has arisen (when Fellaini isn't playing or has been dropped deeper).

In my opinion you need either skill or pace (preferably both) to play on the flanks. Naismith hasn't got either and looks like a fish out of water on the right.

Ian Bennett
222 Posted 16/01/2013 at 20:42:42
John, fair point. For me he is down the pecking order in that role as well. Also, we do break down the left a lot meaning when the ball comes in he'll be tucking in. I still expected something, despite pace or skill issues.
Si Cooper
223 Posted 16/01/2013 at 21:04:11
Ian, obviously if we had converted any of our chances then they wouldn't have got their clean sheet. Whether the result would then have been assured is up in the air because we don't know how the game would have swung following such a breakthrough. Would they have stuck to trying to keep us out and hit us on the break, or would they have really gone on the offensive? Would we have gone into our shell, or would we have taken full advantage and punished them if they threw caution to the wind?

Why would subbing Neville have been harsh? It is not meant as a reflection on him, more on the fact that Swansea's tactics meant he wasn't needed to play the holding midfield role, no-one was. It was clear to see watching the game, and the evidence is in those statistics you gave, that Jags was able to advance into the midfield areas pretty much unopposed. The defence didn't need someone mopping up in front of them. That doesn't mean you necessarily vacate the space completely, but it does mean you can gamble on someone with more attacking ability / threat than Phil Neville.

Likewise, rather than take a half-step towards presenting more threat by using Naismith, why not take the full one and ask Oviedo to run his little legs off on the right? Swansea had overloaded the left, so there should have been room on the opposite side for two quick players to operate in. If we had at least tried to move the ball down the right more often and get someone to the bye-line it might at least have loosened the grip they had on Baines and Pienaar on the left.

Naismith has shown he is not a winger so he was never the man for this job. Oviedo has shown some proficiency in working a wing even if that has mainly been on the left.

You call them crackpot comments, but to me people are just comparing what DM did on Saturday to what he could have done, and in some cases the unused alternative appears to have a lot of potential merit.

Brendan McLaughlin
224 Posted 16/01/2013 at 21:58:01
The tactics/players employed by Moyes produced goals in all of the previous 19 games. So the question for Moyes was does he stick with a formula that has previously consistently produced or does he throw the baby out with the bathwater and try something different but relatively unproven instead. He opted to stick with what has worked more often than not previously & I personally can't find a great deal of fault in that.
Ian Bennett
225 Posted 16/01/2013 at 22:04:42
Si - subbing a player at half time is usually because you're losing, the game plan isn't working, he's injured or he's stinking. IMO the level of performance wasn't low enough to warrant it. Only 2 things worse than being subbed at half time, and that is being subbed in the first half or subbing a sub.

Moyes obviously didn't change it at half time, as he felt we were on top. So why risk that momentum, and get caught by a team set up for the counter. After 20 odd minutes, he recognised something else needed to be tried. We traditionally score a lot of goals in the last quarter, but this time it didn't work. As I say I agree that Naismith has had his chance. I expected that he'd poach some goals, he hasn't and his performances have been gradually been more disappointing.

Paul David
226 Posted 16/01/2013 at 22:09:36
I really don't understand people who defend Moyes's every decision, like he can do no wrong. We are 5th and have scored in nearly every game despite playing Neville, Naismith, Anichebe on the wing, everyone back on corners or whatever else it is that different people slag Moyes off for. The reason for being 5th is simple, our team is still stronger than most teams even when Moyes makes mistakes and the managers of the other teams also make mistakes.

We have and will win games when Moyes gets things wrong just have we have lost when he's got everything right. Overall I think Moyes gets results even though I hate him... but continuing to pick Naismith and a few other decisions are indefensible.

Paul David
227 Posted 16/01/2013 at 22:40:37
That was suppose to be on a microcosm of his tactics.
Si Cooper
228 Posted 17/01/2013 at 23:46:35
Ian (#251) - hadn't realised there were rules of etiquette around when to make substitutions. Surely the 'usual' response is for average managers. 45 minutes was plenty of time to realise that Phil Neville wasn't required in that role for the rest of the match, so the original game-plan wasn't imperative. Not a reflection on him, just a recognition of what little ambition Swansea were showing in the game. The stats you liked showed that Jags could venture over the half way line pretty much whenever he felt like it.

Is it so hard to imagine that DM could go to him at half-time and say "Phil, I think you are surplus to requirements in this one so I am going to let you sit out the second half. Any problems with that?" "No problems boss. You know I'd love to play every minute of every game, but I've hardly had anything to do so far and if you feel you want to try something else that's fine by me." We are talking about a highly paid manager and his team of professionals (hand-picked and honed by Moyes to be team-players) aren't we?

Naismith may eventually find form and his niche, but it is hard to see how he was considered to be the right man for the job on Saturday.

Ian Allaker
229 Posted 18/01/2013 at 01:14:48
Paul, 252 are you 10 years old? Hate is a very strong word, don't you think it is a bit harsh to hate someone who is just managing a football team and who has never done anything to you. I wouldnt like to cross you in the real world if it takes so little to get you to hate people.
Tony J Williams
230 Posted 18/01/2013 at 11:08:08
"I really don't understand people who defend Moyes's every decision, like he can do no wrong." – I really don't believe they exist Paul. I don't think anyone on here has never criticised Moyes at some stage.

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