Moyes keen to end trophy drought

Once again the topic of Everton having no finances to improve their position in the league crops up at a transfer window with some people of the opinion that money does not always buy success, however looking at the league, and clubs who are spending to improve, it is beginning to look like you need heavy financial backing to not only finish in the top 4 but in the top 6 or 7th positions.

Like many supporters of Everton I am beginning to worry about our future with: (a) the lack of investment throug the board; (b) no sign of any takeover, and (c) the possibility of the manager leaving in the future for reasons stated in (a) and (b). Everton supporters have always been a knowledgeable group and will always support the club, but the one thing they would appreciate is for the club to support them.

Less than 24 hours ago 2 teams qualified for the League cup final, one isn't a Premier league club the other more or less survives on leeks. Within weeks one of them will have a shiny trophy to parade with tales of glory that will last forever.

By any stretch this kills the fallacy that unless you have money to rival City, Chelsea, Utd you cannot win a trophy. I might add any audacious manager might see the money boys dropping their stars as an opportunity in the cups... audacious mind!

I am a cup man, over top 4 any day of the week.

However, I just read that Bradford made nothing in the first 4 rounds of the League Cup, just £300k from Arsenal, and just £750k for beating Villa. They get a £1m for the final, with £100k for winning it or £50k for losing.

Now, £2.1m to a club like Bradford is decent, but not a life changing amount. Where as to a premiership club it's the annual cost of a shit player in the squad – Jenas, Bentley, Billy, Joe Cole, Dyer etc.

We are repeatedly told that football is a business, and whilst the Europa, FA Cup and League Cup offer such meagre returns for the level of risk to league points, clubs will not take it seriously. This goes totally against of the old skool grain, that football is about silverware/relegation regardless of level.

A good squad, usually, Man Utd and Chelsea can go on a cup run knowing they can rotate their squad including replacing injured players, Everton can't without damaging the prospects of a 4th spot. If Everton were well above the last relegation team with little likelihood of achieving the 4th spot, then Everton could gamble on playing their best players in every cup match.

Don't forget guys, the League Cup is the only domestic trophy missing from our cobweb infested cabinet.

Winning is a habit you do not want to break. Imagine finishing your career without a medal, any pro wants to win a trophy.

Barry Rathborne "By any stretch this (the LC Final this year) kills the fallacy that unless you have money to rival City, Chelsea, Utd you cannot win a trophy."

Since Moyes has been in charge only Boro, Birmingham, Portsmouth and Bradford/Swansea have won a pot.

That's one trophy every 2.75 seasons going to one of the 86 without money.

So in your quote Barry, does "you" mean "a" club, or clubs in general. Because I've got news for you, we are just one of the 86, we do not solely represent them.

Some think there's a divine right with Everton and though Moyes is good, I can see why you get frustrated, Barry.

On the cup front, I am a fervent Moyes supporter but have to admit that his performances in cups have been underwhelming and I think he would be the first to admit that. However, just because Swansea and Bradford will contest the League Cup (which I am delighted by) does not change the fact that probably over 80% of English trophies have been won by the richest 5 teams at the time.

It's not a hard fast rule or else football really would be boring but money does bring success. In terms of the League Cup it is pertinent that we went out this year when playing a lot of the younger fringe players that many on here are clamouring for us to play now!

Sam, while I often have the opposite opinion to you, you defend your position well. The correlation between the fringe players playing and losing against Leeds is one of the points of contention though. I admit, when we lost to Leeds I wasn't heart-broken – a little peeved but that's about it – but I was disappointed that these players hadn't done the job.

However, I think that some people use that game as an excuse to not try these players again, or at least for more than the odd cameo. Let's remember that a lot of these players were playing together for the very first time after limited time on the training pitch together. Also, they may have had off days – something that gets thrown around a lot when we drop points to teams like Southampton or worse.

Roman, sure I agree with that and am not suggesting in any way that any of those players should be written off simply that as much as we might despair about the likes of Neville and Naismith, a change for change's sake may not go well.

Of the players who played that day i'm particularly hopeful that Barkley and Oviedo will have good futures at Everton and I reckon we will see alot more of them in the first team next season. I'm not yet convinced about Vellios.

What's with the "bigger fish to fry finishing 4th" caper? It's not going to happen. Most Evertonians I know, and believe me I know a few, know that there's not a prayer that Everton will finish 4th.

The squad is certainly not big enough for a start; we've got a manager who's loyalty to under achieving players is quite frankly embarrassing; we've got players on the bench (Anichebe apart... and I never thought I'd say that!) who couldn't turn a game. I'll reserve judgment on Oviedo who looks tidy; Hitz is just not up to it... let's face it, free agents don't suddenly become good players overnight.

I honestly think we ll be lucky to finish 7th because as we've stopped leaking goals we've stopped scoring them and therein lies the difference... The likes of Chelsea, Arsenal and them have had relatively poor seasons but they can steamroller teams in the blink of an eye. Yes, Liverpool and Arsenal have struggled against the top sides but they can put the lesser teams to the sword. We've never been able to do that under Moyes apart from the odd occasion

If you look at his record, our goal difference under his tenure is either low positive or negative – and that's all down to Moyes being negative.

So, in answer to your post, I'd love to win the League Cup every year because it's a route into Europe and it gives us fans a day or weekend in London. If we don't get players in and quick, I fear we ll struggle the 2nd half of the season. Let's face it, the signs are there already...

Nick, thanks for confirming my statement much appreciated.

Well done Barry, so why not acknowledge the rarity for it to happen?

The six clubs with money have won 17 of the 21 domestic cups since Moyes has been in charge.

The other 86 (because you use a League 2 team to point the finger at Moyes) share 4 trophies between them.

Doesn't fly with your anti-Moyes rhetoric presumably. Moyes' fault, Moyes out raghhhhh...

Nick because it's self evident.

I haven't, and I don't think anyone else has, said otherwise my beef is our cause isn't helped by Moyes and his bizarre antics - hence 10 years and counting no trophies.

Someone said he's protecting our assault on 4th .. I've only just stopped laughing.

Yeah, and there's many more PL teams without money counting the years too.

In fact, all other PL teams outside the money are counting the years though Swansea could be the only one.

But that's down to bizarre antics? Is every other manager bizarre too or is that just you being diversionary because I thought we were talking money.

Nick, it's a great point.

It re-inforces Moyes brings "best of the rest" or mid table as the only differential from the rest. The OP suggests Moyes recognises it's woeful but obviously he omits to mention his responsibilty.

But he's after another contract on improved money so why mention it?

No-one else will in this emperor's new clothes paradise.

You may have a point there Barry, only we're above Liverpool and Arsenal and well positioned to take a top 4 position. Mid table? Take a look.

Andy #578

2006-07 +16;
2007-08 +22;
2008-09 +18;
2009-10 +11;
2010-11 +6;
2011-12 +10

I think the last couple of years have coloured your judgement.

"Talk is cheap". It is indeed Mr Moyes. The final against Chelsea, the surrender against Liverpool and the woeful effort at Leeds suggest to me that winning a trophy would be good but is not essential.

Some may think that the league cup is below us but I would love it. Does anyone remember the quiz show many years ago (I'm not sure about the name,it may have been quiz ball, John Osborne, the West Brom goalie always went route four) or the five a sides on Sports Night with Coleman, Well. I cheered us on in those and would have loved a win.

Ten years without a trophy is, no matter what anyone says, an indictment of the coach. Lesser clubs have done it. £4 million a year, in my view entitles us to demand it.

If Moyes grew a pair tactically and didnt sit on one goal leads in semis/finals then we might win a trophy.

Sod the FA Cup, I'd prefer CL football any day. The financial benefits outweigh any other considerations IMO. How much do we earn winning the FA Cup and then playing in the Euro-useless league? Nothing compared to getting into the group stages of the CL.

Colin, we are not good enough to get to the group stages of the Champions League. You sound as if we give up cups and qualify every year. It is not a cup or Champions League. It is a cup or fuck all, and for too long it has been fuck all.

Moyes knows quite well, there are no top jobs on offer if you don't have a c.v. with the word "won" in there somewhere.

If he can take us to 4th spot this season, and then go on to qualify for the group stages of the CL he may be in with a shout of a bigger gig.

Until then, this is the best he can hope for.

Nick, the problem with your "6 clubs with money winning X" argument is that before Man City, and Abromovich at Chelsea, it was 4 clubs with money. Thirteen of the remaining 14 non-monied clubs could be taken over tomorrow, and we know which one wouldn't be, as it's not for sale. Not having a pop, but I bet in 5 years you're talking about "the 10 clubs with money", or worse.

Colin @619, not totally unrelated to my point above, I would bet you our owner would prefer the FA Cup than top 4 any day of the week. Revenue may raise with CL, but so do expectations / required investment in players!

Andy,

"Lesser clubs have done it. £4 million a year, in my view entitles us to demand it." — Why? What has £4m a year got to do with it? Is it only what you pay the manager that dictates who wins the trophies and not what you spend overall that had a direct correlation on winning in the vast majority of cases?

As is aptly illustrated in some of the posts on this thread the vast, vast majority of the trophies are won by the clubs with Money. In fact, only 3 'lesser' have actually won something since Moyes has been in charge. Which of Boro, Portsmouth, or Birmingham would you trade places with?

"I think we've always gone for it. Talk is cheap. You have to do it, and we're going to try to do it......" akin to Neville's "lets sit back, relax and enjoy the football" and moyes' "we all need to have patience"

right before they served up that shite performance at Southamton.

Shut up! simply put!

I don't know if anyone else is sick of the bullshit pep talks before games, but I most certainly am. Who are they trying to convince?

We will see. Actions speak louder than words. Moyes has had a few really good chances of cup glory and been found wanting everytime. I hope he has learnt from the debacle against the rs and Chelsea.

I really hope we have a great cup run as finishing in the top four is hardly worth thinking about with the size and class of our measly squad. I cannot see us doing anything in Europe as we have no depth. At least the FA Cup is just a few games and if we can keep the players fit we may do it!!

It is about time we realised that the cups are our only way of success for the near future. No chance of the title so we should show we take the cups seriously. I for one would be made up if we won even the League Cup! I am so jealous of the Swansea/Bradford fans.

Finishing 4th does not guarantee us CL football either, it means we go into a playoff – a playoff that we botched up last time we tried.

Give me a cup and the glory any day.

If Everton had won 2, 3 or 4 cups in the 10 years, but had battled relegation every year like before him, would you be happy with Mr M?

Andy @621 (&622)

Hallelujah!! God bless you brother!

How many managers that could realistically replace Moyes have won a trophy? Not that many I should think.

Perhaps one contender may have. I know its early days but I really think Laudrup has an admirable something about him, as much from the way he conducts himself in interviews as how his team plays. He may be a passing flavour of the month or he may not want to leave Swansea but if I had to pick someone right now to replace Moyes at the end of the season then he would be very high up the list.

Barry you're deluded if you really believe that. It 's a bit like saying my neighbour got a job so thats proof that the economic downturn is over. Please don't treat people like idiots.

It's only self evident that money doesn't dictate success if you chose to ignore the evidence of the past fifteen years.

David Moyes just can't get it right in the Cup — that's FA and League Cups. He's had over 10 years of trying, and has reached one final. And then he balls'd it up by playing an out-of-form Hibbert instead of the impressive Lars Jacobsen, and of course the dreadful Neville. Malouda ran rings around Hibbert which led to Chelsea's first goal, and Neville's inept marking, their second.

He brought Jacobsen on in the second half for Hibbert – this move immediately neutralised Malouda. But why didn't he start with Jacobsen? Then against Leeds this season in the League Cup – he fields a half-arse team. You can't do that against Championship sides with our limited squad. His cup exploits are littered with bad judgement, poor team selection and completely irrational substitutions.

We have just witnessed Bradford and Swansea reach a cup final – and fair play to them. In recent seasons we have seen Cardiff and Birmingham City in finals. Sadly, our cup form this year will follow the form from previous seasons. What baffles me is Moyes just doesn't learn from his mistakes. Unfortunately his mistakes are being replicated in his team selection and bench substitutions in the Premier League.

Mike, you know what, if we're talking about ten money clubs then we would have an increase to 50% competing on a level playing field and there would not be the same 6 taking 17/21.

I don't think that would happen though because investors want returns that Abramovic and the Saudis could guarantee. That's why for CL places the PL is too busy already for investors, hence PSG and Malaga being taken over IMO.

It could be the cheapest out lay to reach CL for any investor to take over with Moyes in charge, but that's not the managers fault who probably is the main reason for any approaches to date...

The last 12 mths not withstanding, in Moyeses deep down core, he just doesn't do steamroller, gung ho, you score 3 and we score 5 and with relation to Cup games, sudden death, must win, knockout. Cup games are one offs.

You have to win to go forward and you have to go forward to win.

We are somewhat victims of our own limited success. The teams we are supposed to steamroller get to see all the same publicity about how 'good' we are pound for pound, how we over acheive that all the other neutrals see and also I think that deep down they still have an echo of us being still a big club, hence the park the bus we struggle with.

No body will want to draw us at Goodison, or turn up on a Wed night with the Old Lady rocking. But nobody will also be saying I'm glad we got ' fill in monied club of choice ' rather than Everton.

Some might argue that there are TWO second division teams in the LCF.

Sam, the likely circumstances for Moyes leaving are quite depressing.

I reckon he will go in the summer as I don't believe we have the players to take us to the CL. So it's also likely that the only way we'll get income for new players is by selling the likes of Fellaini and Baines who in any case will probably want to go. We also know that whatever funds we have will by at least partially syphoned to pay off our debt.

Which manager of any quality is going to come to a club with few resources and it's best players sold? I fear a real drop, we become a Sunderland or a Fulham hovering between tenth and fifteenth with shit all to shout about. Moyes has some annoying faults but his ability to recycle a team on a pittance and keep us competitive is second to none.

Ian Bennett, probably, yes.

But are we allowed to chose the Champions League as one of the 3/4 trophies won!

John Ford (#641) you are wrong yet again.

Saying your neighbour getting a job clearly demonstrates it is POSSIBLE to get a job nothing more, continuing to say otherwise would of course be idiotic.

Your extrapolation is just an ill thought out attempt at defending the indefensible ie the premise it is impossible to win trophies unless you have the money of Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea et al.

Bradford or Swindon join Portsmouth, Boro and Brum as conclusive evidence otherwise.

I await the usual conclusion that because the latter clubs imploded it is cast in stone that trophy winning equates to relegation.

"If Everton had won 2, 3 or 4 cups in the 10 years, but had battled relegation every year like before him, would you be happy with Mr M?"

I've obviously missed something if one predicates the other. Or is this just another of these stupid 'let's pretend the only alternative is really unpalatable' comments.

To be fair to DM he has got us pretty close, but as things stand he is still a 'nearly man' and there have been far too many poor cup results for anyone to be convinced he has what it takes to seal the deal in the critical games.

@Barry (654) - You're right, it is *possible* to win (cup) trophies even without the huge resources of the richest clubs. Much of that possibility comes down to the relative unpredictability of one-off matches - which means that the richest clubs can slip up sometimes, opening up opportunities for others.

That being said, merely because something is possible (but very rare) doesn't automatically equate to Moyes being a failure because he hasn't achieved it. At times he's taken a too conservative approach to certain games, and I think we could have paid more attention to the League Cup given the opportunity there, but the implication appears to be that our failure to win a trophy under Moyes is proof of our *inability* to win a trophy under Moyes, and I'm not sure I believe that's true.

Robin, my point is Moyes's antics have contributed to the dearth of metal polishing at GP – Exhibit (b), Leeds.

Others are of the opinion it is impossible to win silverware with him in charge, I wouldn't go that far but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I think I'd take the slightly less harsh view that his approach hasn't particularly contributed to the lack of cup trophies in a negative way, while agreeing that I don't think he's done much to increase our chances, either.

Essentially I think Moyes's style is ultimately pragmatic and slightly conservative (not nearly as conservative as he is often accused of), and that has worked far more effectively in terms of increasing our *average* performance – and thus improving our league positions – than it has in improving our potential for one-off performances – and thus not improving our cup success.

Nobody suggested it was impossible to win trophies, Barry. But the way you use the odd examples where non-monied teams do actually win trophies, it's like all of a sudden money means nothing. Money is still the biggest single factor for footballing success. Moyes has very little of it. And you're using this as a stick to metaphorically beat him with.

Statistically – and this is the real point – it is very unlikely that we will win trophies because we don't have sheds full of cash. That much is a fact. Not impossible but feckin unlikely. Unfortunately.

Southampton are more ambitious than Everton. They had a good manager much akin to our own Mr Moyes. The club must have thought long and hard before sacking him and bringing in a replacement.

The only way we will get a new manager is when Moyes decides to move on. It's a big gamble for Soton but, as they say, "who dares wins"... whereas at Everton its more like "who cares if we win, I'm happy with a point."

I've never been a supporter of Moyes and never will be — and don't give me this old guff about how lucky we are, who could we get, he is the best we can hope for... Utter bollocks. In the real world, people who don't perform usually end up on the dole.

"I've never been a supporter of Moyes and never will be" - That says it all really, so no matter what he does you won't like him. If he managed to placate the unreasonable expectations of the MOB on here and win something, you would still not like him? If he managed to get us into the top 4 and then on from there some money and then we start becoming a team to be reckoned with again, you still won't like him?

Very strange behaviour that.

Of course none of the above will happen because the players we have are not consistent enough and we don't have the squad to challenge if we did miraculously get into the Champions League....but it's ALL Moyes' fault isn't it? Not the dope upfront missing three sitters in three games on the bounce to cost us 5 points, the big haired dope being a dick and getting sent off and missing games and more importantly starting to shoot like Osman, JAgs going back to his hoof tactics etc etc, no it's all Moyes fault.

(And don't trot out the oft used, "but it's his players, he chose them" - he chose them because that's all he could afford and he plays them, ie Naismith, because there is very little option for change on the bench)

"Southampton are more ambitious than Everton." - We'll see, but nearly all the other managers seem to think that it was an unfair dismissal, but what do they know.

Anto, you assert that "Southampton are more ambitious than Everton," and I'm struggling to grasp that logic.

When was the last time Southampton competed with Everton for a league position?

If you're basing your claim on the bizarre decision replace a popular manager, with a relative rookie boasting a mid-table & 32% win-ratio record, then I also fail to see how that stacks up either.

Had you even heard of Pocettino before he arrived on the south coast?

Or is it more lazy, flavour-of-the-month rhetoric?

This thread is just going round in circles. If any person took an objective look at our record in the cups in the last 10 years, they will come to the conclusion that we have been extremely poor. Whethre pro DM or anti, its been shit in general. Even before DM Everton fans always had high hopes in the cups (FA Cup at least anyway). I think pre Moyes we held the record for most FA Cup Semis.

We have been kocked out 20 times and a large proportion of those knock outs have been to lower division sides and in the early rounds. At times with bad luck you may draw a 'big' side in the early round of the FA Cup, but this is rare. Regardless of our league finishes, our record in the cups is woeful - I don't need to list the painful memories here.

Being a PL club does not entitle us to winning trophies but I would have expected us to be reaching far more QF, SF and finals in the last 10 years. The manager himself admits that his record in the cups has not been great, so I don't see why people are trying to say otherwise.

As one post above quite rightly says - shut up and get on with it, a win away to Bolton and then we move on.

Denis, yous say the thread is going round in circles and then add your point of view with absolutely no fresh insight. Though I don't disagree with your point of view i'm not sure its your place to tell other people to stop debating something...thats kind of what happens here!

Si - it was question based on the fact that those teams outside of the traditional top 4/5/6 have been relegated who have won anything, the side has been too weak to fire on all fronts. Moyes has brought stability, and is a nearly man over his time building decent, but not great sides from scraps.

After going through the previous decade of annual relegation scraps, I was interested to understand if fans would have traded that stability for an annual relegation scrap and a couple of league or fa cups along the way. Moyes and most managers do put in weaker sides that are invariably embarrassed in the cup against lower opposition, season in, season out, so clearly the managers see that as acceptable. The money and chairmen load the league in favour of that choice - Bradford will make just £3m fir winning the league cup, whilst the fa cup is equally pittyful. I would guess that even with a couple of cups, Moyes would have been fired if the team maintained the annual scrap, cups or not.

Sam - there is no fresh insight for me to add, nor anyone else imo, that was the point of my post. Our cup record speaks for itself and I don't see what our league position(s) have to do with the topic (which some people use to defend the cup record).

Moyes has been poor in one off knock out games, probably down to his cautious approach and generally being happy with a point in league games etc. Until he changes his approach in knock out games, we will have this never ending discussion every year when the cup games come around.

Hence time for him to stop going on about how imoprtant the cups are and actually show it. No one expects us to win every year but I would at the very least expect longer cup runs. In the last 10 FA cups we have gone out in the 3rd or 4th round 6 times. I don't need to remind peopld of the mighty monied clubs like Reading, Blackburn, Shrewsbury etc.

(I wont even bother with the LC record..)

Lets just beat Bolton and move on..........

Denis #722
In the 10 FA cups before Moyes came our record is pretty similar....so what's your point?

I agree Denis. I think the facts of the matter are clear. We don't have a great cup record. But then neither do alot of clubs at our level of financial resource. The cup is mostly won by the richest 4 or 5 clubs at the given time. People bring up his league form because they believe Moyes has outperformed the resources available in the league but I don't think anyone thinks the same is true of the league.

Surely Moyes admitting his failures in the league is a good thing? Its the first step to trying to do better.

John Ford the definitive stance taken a million times by all and sundry defending Moyes is he "can't" win trophies because of the money, taking refuge in semantics is crap. People don't say "we accept he could win something but statistically speaking ....." do they?

No, they trumpet "his net spend is minus 1 billion, end of ...." as though revealing the 11th commandment, it's unassailable bollocks which has been shot down in flames.

People using the no money equals no trophies argument should be fined - 10 quid to a cancer charity - it's never been true, it isn't true today and it won't be true tomorrow.

Barry, I don't think anybody has said that EFC can't win trophies because of their lack of spending power because that is nonsense. It is all based on probabilities. They whould have a reasonable chance of winning the league cup as the strong teams don't put out strong teams early in the competition and small clubs can get to the final. It all depends on the draw they get but as we have never done well in it even with a good side I'd say we're at 1 in a 50 to 1 in 100 per year probability at best. The big money sides win the FA Cup nowadays but depending on the draw lightning could strike twice in the same place and we could win it, now I'd say we are at a 1 in 100 to say 1 in 200 per year at best of winning the FA Cup. Only the big money clubs win the Championship because only they have the squads to do so, I'd say for all intents and purposes that we have zero chance of winning the league. So yes we have a chance of winning the league cup that we once sneered at, we have little chance of winning an FA Cup and we have zero chance of winning the league. Pre-Premiership we had a far better chance of winning any but times have changed. How does a club with a massive resource disadvantage win a top trophy now?

Barry for once I agree with you, as big a Moyes supporter as I am even I recognise that his cup record just is not good enough when you take into account the ten years. I think some people are picking the wrong examples of his failures though. They should be bringing up Leeds this season, Reading at home, Oldham at home, Shrewsbury. These are the games that a shred of proffessionalism would have won for us and would have got us further in the draw. One semi-final in the legue cup in ten years is not good enough consistency. As for the near misses though I do npt buyt hat Moyes just self destructed. In 2009 we had a team shorn of Jagielka, Arteta and Yakubu, the spine of our team. We were playing a team that had just mauled Barcelona over two legs and should really have gone through, it was certainly a far better side than the one who won the CL last year. As for the semi final we were without probably our best player that half a season in Pienaar, yes we played badly, but how could Moyes legislate for that Distin cock up, or for Fellaini allowing Carrol a free header? If we'd ridden that storm out we might have seen that game out or won on penaltiesand it owuld have been a bad performance but we would have been through. Equally against Chelsea in the league cup last season how is it Moyes' fault that Baines misses a penalty that would have put us a goal and a man up? In the semi against Chelsea in the league cup how can he legislate for McFadden hitting the post, Lescott getting outjumped by Shaun Wright Philips. how can he legislate for Sebastian Frei having the best goalkeeping performance I've seen in a long time at Goodison. In the big moments we've never had the sort of luck Swansea had against Chelsea in the away leg being gifted two goals. We've always played opposition in form and had no luck regardless of how well or not we've played. Aside from these high profile losses though our cup record hasn't been good enough, even if we'd won in 2009 or 2012 our cup record would not be good enough. For a team of Everton's stature unless you're drawing City or United away in the third round every year its unacceptable not to be getting at least to the quarter finals of the League cup and FA cup every year and converting some of these chances into good runs when given a favourable draw.

Phil (#613) — point taken, pal. Should have done my research on that one. Still doesn't change my view of him, though, that he's ultra-cautious.

Our record since Moyes took over is just not acceptable for any self-respecting Evertonian.

Even if you fall back on the "lack of finances" argument, over the last 10 years the likes of Portsmouth, (FA Cup), Blackburn, Middlesbrough, Birmingham (League Cup) and now either Swansea or Bradford (League Cup) — none of these clubs can be considered rich, BUT they managed to win something. Maybe the connection is a positive, attacking mindset?

What of Everton, we win nothing and blame lack of finances, ignoring that maybe, just maybe, our manager is to blame. Too defensive, too cautious when it really matters, when silverware is there for the taking!

The squad we have now, and some of the previous ones under Moyes have been good enough to win us something. I can still remember half-time v Liverpool in last season's semi. 1-0 up, in command and true to form, sit back for the whole of the 2nd half and bingo, the inevitable conclusion.

I know what's coming: "Who else could do better? At least he's kept us in the Prem"... etc etc.

One day Moyes will leave and Everton will have to keep going. I hope the club owners have what every successful business has — a Plan B!

Brendan (#723) — perhaps Denis's point is that a well paid coach who has spent quite a bit of money might be expected to improve things. Judging Moyes by what went before is, 10 years on, pointless.

Barry you're starting not to make sense. Just look at the facts mate. They really are that simple (nick displayed them earlier in the Thread) It's very difficult to win trophies without big money. Most people know this. How they express it is irrelevant, anyone with a reasonable grasp of logic can see it - the evidence over fifteen years is clear. Is not an excuse it's a fact. This situation influences people's views on Moyes. The context he is working in is unlike any blues manager before him

Occasionally like this year a 'different' team will win, usually an odd league cup when often the money teams don't bother playing their first team.And of course there's a slim chance we will too.

It's simple statistics and probability. Nothing more.