Late Heitinga screamer wins it

Regardless of result now I'm proper pissed of at the loss of Mirallas. I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling he has been rushed back very quickly... are Gueye, Naismith and Oviedo not trusted?

Well, if that's the case, why have them at the club??? You would never see other top managers doing this... I'm not a Moyes basher but it's just idiotic in my opinion.

Let's hope the result if not the performance lifts the spirits of the players in time for WBA, because we can't afford another tired or sub-standard performance against them on Wednesday.

COYB — Why do they always make it difficult for us?

I'm really worried about our form; a big turn around is needed just to keep hold of a Euro spot. How can Mirallas be injured again? — it's a fucking joke.

How was the second sub a good one?

Is it just cos he scored?

Or...55% possession & 17 goal attempts away from home; Taking the lead twice after losing Mirallas early doors, battled hard and hit the crossbar...I beg to differ.

Pats on the back.

Liverpool spend £18 million on two players... How many more reasons does BK need to put his hand down?

What are the chances of Bill Kenwright selling the club for a POUND, to someone who will be a full-time hands on owner, because we cannot carry on the way we are — it just saps the energy of the players and supporters alike.

I don't see how taking a striker off (even though he is playing shit) and replacing him with a centre half to play in midfield, who has never played well there against a lower league side is a good sub. The ends don't always justify the means — we got lucky.

Open your eyes!!! It won the match, I wish all the Moyes haters would save it for when we loose.

Oviedo will put in a request in the summer and I don't blame him. This squad flattered to deceive in the first 2/3 months this season and I think Fellaini is playing as if he has already moved on.

This is entirely down to DM to sort... Mirallas getting injured again is down to the medical staff not sorting his problem, the rest is down to an average squad that needs refreshing badly...

Come on, Bill — get your finger out !!!!

The Mirallas injury is extremely frustrating...I don't see why he was involved against Southampton so soon after returning, or in from the start against Bolton today. This isn't the spring...and the cold weather will play apart. Some managers do rush people back...and Wenger is a prime example, but we've made this mistake twice now...and to do it a second time is plain stupid. Whatever the medical evidence says, we have to be cautious. Now we will likely be without him for another few weeks (unless it was precautionary, which I doubt).

We must go and buy/loan a right sided player now. And whilst I didn't see the match today, from the sounds of things, I'm inclined to say Jelavic should be dropped for Anichebe next match. Although perhaps with Mirallas out now, Anichebe may be our best right sided option.

Sinclair should be available shouldn't he? Or Marin? We are in the fifth round of the cup, and within touching distance of fourth with two extremely winnable home games on the trot...we need to capitalise on this.

Love it that, when a sub comes on and does change the game, Moyes is lucky; if it doesn't work, it's tactical ineptness.... brilliant.

The sickening thing is the Mirallas injury. His hamstrings must be like tracing paper... I feel for the lad. He gives us a different option as opposed to Baines and Pienaar who, by all accounts, according to Roger Melly (Ian dowie) on Sky, were excellent. I've just asked my mate who went. And he said they were just alright.

But we got lucky and I don't know how we won it. Still, we're still in the hat and it saves us going out on a freezing cold January night next Tuesday or Wednesday. Luton please next round...

Who actually scores the winner is irrelevant. What is important, is that we did not look like winning before the change, and after the change, we scored and hit the bar. If we were playing for the draw, Big Vic would have been told to play upfront on his own.

All these subjects aside, I think it's a fucking joke that some of fans would have preferred we didn't score just so they could berate the manager for the substitution. I was equally as happy when we scored that it stuck two fingers up to the Football Manager Brigade, and guided us through to the next round.

As the away side, playing against a team that turned us over at home last season; Yes, on balance, we do merit our place in tomorrow's draw.

It was not innovative, new or dynamic — it was textbook Moyes. However, we rode our luck and it paid unexpected dividends.

Also, whilst I'm not saying this was the intent today, replacing a forward with a midfielder isn't always negative - as highlighted today, Fellaini forward vice Jelavic to support Anichibe is maybe something Moyes thought would give their defence a different type of threat to deal with???

And yes to most of us it appeared negative (self included) at the time but perhaps there was a reason that we can't see as fans at the time.

Whats wrong with Hitz?

I mean, what's the alternative? It was a BAD substitution?!

Sounded like Big Vic didn't take his chance today, disappointing that.

It's not ideal but Moyes's was fielding his strongest side to go for the win. It's our lack of options that's hurting Moyes, not his tactics. That's said, can't understand how you can play Naismith or Gueye ahead of Oviedo. He looks class; I disagree with our manager there.

Also credit to Howard, another good game from what I heard from the commentary... anyone who was at the game able to comment?

Agree that Gibson is the key to our return to form.

"I think its a fucking joke that some of fans would have preferred we didn't score just so they could berate the manager for the substitution."

You are talking absolute 100 per cent bollocks. Now, recently, the crowers of this world/boards have avoided questions that make their statements look as silly as they are. So, here's a question for you Dan: give me a single example, just one, name please and also the words he/she said, of someone on here who "would have preferred we didn't score just so they could berate the manager for the substitution".

Just one name, okay, and the exact words they wrote down that justify your bollocks? Otherwise, if you cannot produce what I ask, please refrain from your unsubstantiated high-horse bollocks in future please.

@fizzer18: Got a bit fired up when heard boos for the sub then the sub scores the winner at my age need to keep calm-thanks for the amazing support!!

Good job he wasn't reading the match day forum!!

Seems like he's trying to play it down with the subsequent tweet.

I know our away fans are a bit more hardcore than the home lot, but not often I've seen/heard them boo the manager's decision at a game.

We badly NEED some action from this window and a complete turnaround in form if we are to make any further progress into EU or even the next round of the cup... my dicky ticker can only take so much!

Agreed, that's why the best place to have a pop is on a forum or after a game. Teams feed off support so I've never seen the point of booing a team during a game, especially at 1 - 1. You only have to look at Chelsea this season or Blackburn last season to see the effect it can have.

However, I'm not going to judge anyone who made the effort to get off their arse and follow the team today, they were magnificent. I was in the Main Stand today with some Bolton mates so my support was a little less vociferous than usual.

I was there last time we won a 4th round FA Cup tie in the final minute having played poorly. That was 1995, Matt Jackson you beauty!!

This I think is what you are referring to.

http://twitpic.com/byhdqm

Give me players with sort of passion every day of the week.

We didn't concede a goal until the semi final, when Sheringham dived. That remains the only time I have been to Elland Road, and the Final itself was strange. Being convinced we'd get a hiding, talking to some Man U fans in bars by Wembley we realised how they didn't want to be there (having blown the league the week before) and the rest is history.

Of course Matt Jackson was only playing because Earl Barrett was cup-tied - thankfully.

Even better! Proper snot going on there. Nice to know it matters I always think.

Mike I was there when we won the Cup Winners Cup and yes I know it was in Rotterdam!

Just on a side issue: Why shouldn't crowds be mixed in games like this? We were bringing money into Bolton, they failed miserably to fill all of the top tier of their stadium and had the audacity to kick off on the Blues in the Main Stand at the end.

Another question: Why did Moyes put Barkley out on loan (again) when we have such a small squad AND Barkley has proved himself to be an effective player? Is it the money men calling the shots?

This victory papers over the cracks: this is a manager who cannot see beyond his favourites (Neville, Osman, Jelavic etc). If we are to challenge for the top 4 we have to at least beat these teams away.

Can anyone give me the stats on how many times we have beaten Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool away from home in the Premier League with Moyes in charge? Guess what? We play all these teams away in the run-in. Total points? Maximum of 2.

Would like to see how we played after the Heitinga sub before concluding whether it was a good sub or not. On face value, it looks like a negative sub, but if it's true that Fellaini moved forward then I'd be happy with that. Also, were Bolton rallying before it, which could have prompted the defensive sub.

A question for the conspiracy theorists: is a home replay a good thing financially for the club, or does the ticket division scheme in the FA Cup mean that a replay is actually more draining?

Not much positivity about Gueye. Could he have been worse than Naismith?

We didn't play well prior to this Bolton looked sharper than us and to be honest were unlucky to lose the game.

Still onwards and upwards.

I must admit the lack of coverage of the Everton Tie, is slightly mystifying as it was a classic lower tier game against a high profile club with a magnificent record in the FA Cup (apart from Finals).

As for Phil Neville - I'm not sure what to make of his reaction, surely there were times when United fans reacted badly to a managers decision and pip didn't react like that. Moyes and Neville are a bit too much like Clough and McGovern for my liking.

Loyalty is a good thing, but he has to remember, there are people in that away crowd, who have been loyal to Everton, all their lives, and they have seen more lows than highs, they may have been wrong in their reaction, but they of all people are entitled to vent their spleen if they feel that something isn't right.

Catterick and Kendall had to deal with the adverse reaction of our fanatical supporters, they dealt with it, but as former players, they also understood it.

I remember one a few seasons back: his bet of the day was "Get on Everton not to score at Portsmouth." 3 mins in and Baines curls in a gem... but then what do you expect from a bitter red twat?

He's like his mate from the same rag, that patronising fucker Brian Reade, with his "Oh plucky Everton" comments, they knock me ill. They hate us but just haven't got the bottle to come out and say it. Sorry, guys, but the booze has well and truly kicked in.

If your memory has not completely abandoned you, can you remember Barkley's preseason game against Villarreal? A brilliant performance against a top class team. Every time he's come as sub, he's shown himself to be far superior to Neville, Naismith & Osman. So Jelavic gets us 3 points against Spurs – it is actually 2 points – we were drawing at the time. The goal was made by Vellios. Now lets add up some of the sitters he's missed: Stoke, Chelsea, Swansea, Southampton... shall I go on? He's cost us at least 8 points – oh, but he did get us a goal against Cheltenham!

If you have any experience in any sport whether it is as a player or as a coach, then you have to rest or drop players who are consistently playing badly. I suspect from your comments, you have never competed in any meaningful sport – possibly apart from pool or darts judging by your foul mouth.

• A manager that cannot see when a player needs dropping;
• A manager that is absolutely clueless regarding substitutions (today was a fluke);
• A team lacking direction, motivation and form;
• A team that has never beaten (in the Premier League) Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverrpool away from home while Moyes has been in charge;
• A team destined for mid-table mediocrity at best.

Starting line-up seemed effective; Mirallas breaking down again is a worry. The player has to be honest with the training staff and admit if he is still unsure about an injury; can't see the manager putting him in to start unless the player has given a positive response. Seems strange for a player who hasn't got a history of these injuries so I would be finding out what he has changed / stopped doing since he came to us (remember the performance car kerfuffle at Man Utd?) though if it is our miserable weather that would be difficult to rectify!

Both Sharpy and Ronnie Douglas (along with people phoning in) asked why Gueye (for Mirallas) and why not Vellios (at any stage), so it seems reasonable to me that people at the match (or on here) would ask the same questions in any non-violent way they can. Pip should have known better than to berate our fans at the game – no matter how much he disagreed with them.

For the benefit of some on here, just because it all turns out right in the end doesn't mean it is necessarily unfair to ask questions or even criticise because it doesn't mean that all the players, or the team overall, played as well as we would hope / expect. Counter people's posts with logic and your reasoning, don't just call them 'Moyes-haters' and say everyone has to be unfailingly positive unless we lose.

2 minutes maximum (least of all shown so far) and commentary was dubbed on rather than having been recorded live. Was this game shown live on another channel or is it just an example of how little interest ITV had in it?

Bastards!!!!

If it was a move that was guaranteed to bring success why wasn't Heitinga brought on 20 minutes earlier? Can you prove that we wouldn't have won more convincingly if Vellios had replaced Jelavic? It was a roll of the dice after what had been tried for the majority of the game failed to bring success, not some perfectly timed coup-de-grace.

Fans who attend have right to voice their opinions in any way that is legal. Players (and managers) need to be a bit more thick-skinned and just get on with it.

The gloaters and crowers who rush on here when something goes right, lucky or not – Walker, Hudson, Allaker and the like – drive me nuts with their pious Moyesisms and holier-than-thou defence the gaffer at all costs. But ask Hudson where he was on the forum today, Lo and behold he wets his pants and scrambles onto the live forum for the 1st time just after our 2nd goal, crowing with that playground "I told you so".

Paul Ferry, you are right. I fear that the rest of the season will see consolidation rather than innovation. The signs were there against Swansea and yesterday's substitution was vintage Moyes.

This will now probably be followed by some play ground argument based around people like me not being realistic, always looking for positives (heaven forbid) and burying my head in the sand. The classic argument I read frequently after we loose and any idiot like me tries to find any positives in a performance is 'when we win Moyes takes the plaudits so when we loose he should take the blame'. What a load of bollocks that is hey?

As I say, of course those gritty realists can have a good moan and criticise the team if that's what floats your boat, but no need to berate the loons like me who unfortunately just like to naively enjoy our team winning. We have enough disappointments and opportunities to wallow in self pity, I think I'll just enjoy the result, it feels great!

If you want an example of the power of positive thought, take a look at Andy Murray. He acknowledges his success has been down to changing the way he thinks about things now, he has a positive mental attitude inspired by Lendl internationally acknowledged as a positive thinker. It works.

To give some balance, as I have said since early November, I think Jelavic needs a spell in the reserves to rediscover his confidence by netting a few. It has cost us league points over the last couple on months, but I'm not sure Moyes will do it now, wish he would though.

I hope us getting through does not take concentration away from the fight for 4th place. (Ha ha ha ha...)

Sitting in a "neutral" seat at the match, watching the Everton end erupt in delight at the late winner, I couldn't see too many unhappy Blues. Shades of Bristol City 1995.

The web shows the levels of delusion no end with classics like "an easy three points" before the game when its a bloody cup match. "Genius substitution to push on and win".... well, taking a striker off, even a misfiring one, and putting on a centre half is a defensive move looking to ensure the team doesn't concede any more goals and push for a draw.

Yet again, anyone who dares question the mere mortal that is Moyes is shouted out as some form of heretic... utterly ridiculous.

I'm not saying it was masterstroke as I personally am not a Heitinga fan but not sure you can presume to know what Moyes was thinking.

“Tactically we had to see if we could find a goal and we thought that pushing Felli [Fellaini] further forward might have been the answer to it,”

“We were limited because we didn’t have any other midfielders on the bench, so we put Johnny in and pushed Felli further forward, and thankfully it was Johnny who got us the goal."

Now I know you don't like him and all that but would you like to call him a liar too.

I think that we are catching West Brom in the league at the right time on Wednesday. We then have Villa on Saturday. At this stage, the young squad at Villa must be very low on confidence and are there for the taking. I do think that Moyes will go for it in these two games. Yesterday's win will only have boosted our squad in advance of these two games.

Anyone would think we lost yesterday judging from the unhappy tone conveyed in your posts..

Oh, and for the record, far from "scrambling on to the forum for the first time after the 2nd goal," I actually turned-up a good half an hour before the winner, posting at 16:08, and followed the premature slagging-off throughout.

Alright?

Guys, I think you'll find Fellaini and Anichebe were on the pitch all the time, not hiding under some rock. A manager can move his players around during the game, they aren't riveted to the spot. Jelavic spending more and more time out wide, why not push Fellaini and Anichebe up top then?

For each and every "fact" the Moyes arse-lickers come up with, every single one can be countered with your very own conjecture lines. One of Heitinga's first impacts to the game was giving away a dangerous free kick.

The game was poor, the performances all round with few exceptions were poor, the winning goal was a bit of good luck, not some genius moment – shouting it as one is really very, very funny.

Epiphany? ..10 years lessons learned?

BOLLOCKS

Centre Half on for Centre Forward amidst woeful stuff against a lower league team is a road map back to same old same old. Fans booing are saying, "Stick your unsigned contract up your arse, we've had enough of this garbage."

A spawny win disguises nothing; after a decade, we know what this brand of football gives.

I would not argue we played particularly well yesterday, I saw it with my own two eyes, but that's not really the point. You claim Moyes made the substitution to close the game out as a draw, others make the valid argument he was changing the formation to try and find a winner. Characterising those who hold the latter view as needing a straight jacket is clearly ridiculous.

The reason I believe it was a tactical substitution is that Moyes said it was. So is he a liar then?

Who names the squad including the bench? I'll give you a clue – he's got ginger hair

Who left Hitzlsperger out of that list despite him NOT being injured and instead named Naismith who is as good as playing with ten men putting him on the right wing? He got a place on the bench but would have proved pretty much useless a sub had he been used so much so Marvin got on the pitch.

If your main striker isn't working, you sub him or move him to an alternative role on the pitch if you don't want to burn a sub – QED. If Jelavic keeps appearing on a wing or behind another playing pushing up into the striker role, tell the players to stay that way.

If not, sub him for Oviedo and push Pienaar into central mid where he used to play for South Africa. Or what was wrong with a like for like sub in Vellios?

The manager gets a wedge of money to make these sort of decisions, Sam, and if after ten fucking years he's slipping back to his old dirge and can't evolve, he should get bell end for it, or at least make like-for-like subs he had. A striker off for a defender screams out parking the bus and going for a draw.

What we were specifically arguing about is whether him bringing Heitinga on for Jelavic was necessarily a decision to 'ensure the draw'. You stated categorically that it was and I said you couldn't presume to know that.

For what its worth, I think Naismith gets too much abuse, Vellios is nowhere near as useful as people think but I agree I would have liked Oviedo to come on.

Whilst it may not always be pretty, I believe we have improved.

Those would be my two questions. I think Fellaini has proved our most attacking dangerous player this season (bar Mirallas potentially), and I think he must play in a more advanced role to be at his most effective.

Gavin, do you have official confirmation that Hitz wasn't injured?

I never thought Bolton would prove my premise but clearly so; admittedly us being in a higher division makes it even worse but hey you've got a point.

Welcome aboard.

Your hatred of all things Moyes is making you miss one vital detail. The substitution worked.

I think he was thinking 90% we hold what we have and 10% Felli might nick one if he goes up front.

So, not to mince words, he was lieing through his back teeth.

Lucky, fluke, jammy?

Maybe our PE teacher, dour Scot, clueless twat of a manager had a Plan B. God forbid he earns his massive £4 million a year contract.

Quite a few true colours shown on here. It's pretty pathetic really.

(Baptisms for new converts are being held at New Brighton Lighthouse next week if you're interested – bring your own wellies)

Surely if pressing in the last quarter is effective and we score, shouldn't we be at it from the get go?

Changing things after 45 or even 70 minutes is different, that's attempting to change the style of play of the whole team. Leaving it until 80 minutes - which is what Moyes tends to do - is just having a punt.

I think it was an OK substitution, both defensive and offensive in intent, which "luckily" worked. It could just as easily have not worked. It's neither proof of DM's genius or his idiocy. Sorry to repeat myself, but surely the point is that the fans there were fully entitled to express unhappiness, given the poor performance of the team on the day and the manager's previous poor substitution skills - and that the captain needs a reality check if he thinks the fans are not allowed to have their own opinion. FFS, he seems to think that we all swollow his tiresomely banal public relations statements. We don't!

If I hear one more soundbite from PN about us "learning from our mistakes" I'm going to... I'm going to... Well, to be honest I don't know what I'm going to do - but I'll be very annoyed!

By the way, who do we fancy in the next round? Luton away?

Pienaar looks like he can't take the physical punishment in every game and the same applies to Ossie. Both are the wrong side of 30 and are being asked to do it every game in the heat of a midfield. Teams have resorted to taking a very physical approach and we aren't passing as well as earlier in the season.

We seem to pass better when Felli drops deep - he has the physique to hold the ball - but then lose something upfront, as Jelly looks in desperate need of a rest

Hitz doesn't have the quality for me; he does ok when we are at home and teams drop deep but he lacks pace and doesn't seem to have found a good range of passing.

I think we are going through a sticky patch and the manager needs to try something different for a few games to allow the players to regain confidence.

I would go with Oviedo left side and try and rotate Pienaar and Ossie as the creative force in Centre Mid. Drop Felli alongside them as the physical presence and upfront pair Vic and Vellios.

In the absence of KM and Coleman we have a non-existent right side. Naismith is struggling too so other than trying to get a loan signing not sure what the manager can do. Pienaar doesn't play well right side as he doesn't have the pace to go outside, and when he cuts in he doesn't have Baines to make a run outside. He can do this on the left or in Centre Mid.

All in all, we aren't doing particularly well right now and the manager needs to shuffle his pack. There is enough quality in the squad for things to come right but I think playing the same XI, week-in, week-out when many are so low on confidence is not the answer.

People will never be happy and will always complain even when we win which sums up the miserable negative people that come on this site that is the sad reality. Even if Moyes picked the team that they would like to see they would find something to complain about like putting the subs on 5 mins later than they would have liked. Just accept that Moyes got it right and knew what was best to win the game, he knows far more about his players and the game of football than you ever will.

I think we do need to remember it's an FA Cup game as well.... seems simplistically to just treat this as a poor result or performance, because Bolton are in the Championship. Chelski drew with, and were arguably outplayed for, parts of the match against Brentford today...Spurs are currently losing to Leeds, Arsenal just overcame Brighton, Norwich and QPR lost embarrassingly at home etc etc. Rightly or wrongly, when you play a team from a lower division, it means more to them, and has an effect. We won yesterday..and we did it without several important members of the first team squad (Coleman, Hibbert, Hitz, Gibson and Mirallas after his injury). I don't think a win should be greeted with the extent of negativity of some of these posts...I wonder sometimes whether some of us don't watch many other teams play. We also had more shots yesterday, possession, corners...it wasn't an awful display, and we certainly didn't deserve to lose. We can argue about the luck of the substitution all day...but I'm a firm believer in Fellaini as the AMC, and in a formation with one striker...I think we play best that way, I think teams in general play best that way, and as a result I can't agree that it was a wholly negative change.

On the Everton game, I think there would be less debate about the sub if the winning goal had come from Fellaini in open play. As luck had it, the guy that came on scored pretty much from a set piece. I think people are really underestimating how much impact that has on our assessment.

Of course we are gloating because Everton won — the team we support. Why aren't you gloating? Why are you constantly moaning and so negative about everything?

Moyes made the right decision, like he normally does, and it paid off; if it didn't pay off, fair enough... but it did, so get over it.

. People say we were lucky because the goal was late in the game. Luck had nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if the goal is in the first min or the the last. The game is 90 mins plus extra time. Moyes brought on fresh legs against tired legs when they are going to have maximum effect and it worked.

Well done once again Mr Moyes, please hurry and sign that contract or there will be a lot more moaning on this site to come.

How good is this Oldham game though?!

It's been a tough weekend for Prem teams... still, come on Oldham!

Your blind so-called loyalty reveals little ability to do what thoughtful people must do: think things through, get to the bottom of issues, analyze, question, look fairly and deeply into other sides of the question, show some sort of balance (this, for instance, is what I and many others like me do when we puzzle over the enigma that is Moyesman, praising and knocking when either is warranted).

Anyway, I've said my piece... and guess what, Mr Hudson, I've had a cracking last 24 hours. And blessed Sheedy, the Shite are 3-1 down at 64:25. I'm very very happy. But perhaps you want to dispute that too M Hudson from your lofty the-gaffer-is-always-right, don't-knock-him-ever-ever-ever high horse.

Our first XI has the quality to compete with anyone when they are fit and firing but a few of them (not least Jelly) look badly short of confidence and puff. We have a few players on the bench who we know can do a job for a couple of matches – Vellios (has a few Premier League goals), Oviedo and Vic. What's the point of carrying these squad players if they can't be given a start for a couple of games every few weeks? We shouldn't be waiting for players to get injured such as KM and GIbbo.

Chelsea lucky to get a replay against Brentford, Spurs out against Leeds, Norwich knocked out by Luton, QPR panned by MK Dons, Arsenal only squeak by Brighton and City just squeeze past Stoke. Not looking too good for Liverpool either...

I still think you are full of nonsense but I have discovered the one topic to unite all Toffeewebbers, one subject none of us will disagree on....... Come on Oldham!!

With the Oldham result I'm not in the mood to argue with anyone.

So can we agree to blame Bill? No funds for a decent bench so we can't farm out our young talent to get experience.

If only we could all be angst ridden worriers, life would be so much more depressing.

You appear to be upset over my original post (793).

Can you do me the courtesy of re-reading it and pointing out any in-accuracies you think exist?

Or are you simply interested in berating a delighted Evertonian who (God forbid!) happens to back the manager?

I'm guessing you don't care too much for Moyes, yet hypocritically, you call for "balance."

(Ie: For & Against).

Well guess what, I think you've found it..!!

Unfortunately, there were a raft of other things that didn't stack-up in your flaccid response.

You invited me to "think things through," so I shall: We are 5th in the league, on a cup-run, and have only suffered 5 defeats in the last 38.

As per your request, MY particular analysis has to be favourable.

A critique of Moyes will, if applicable, be met by a rebuttal; Just as praise for him, if considered undeserved, will also be challenged.

(That's kind of how ToffeeWeb works).

Can I also inform you (for a second time) that I didn't "come on here late as always," as (again) I posted on the forum just after 4pm.

...then sat and read your whining, miserable, expletive-laden comments, and your premature, bitchy over-reaction to a sub who only went and banged-in the winner!!

As for my "blind so-called loyalty," as you put it: I prefer the term season ticket holder..

Got a problem with that too..?

Finally, twice you claim I'm occupying a 'High Horse.'

You follow this by telling me how YOU (and I quote..) " think things through, get to the bottom of issues, analyse, question, look fairly and deeply into other sides of the question, and show some sort of balance..."

..which is about as hoity-toity as it gets.

Depressing stuff,Paul.

(Awaits 'Vicky Pollard-esque: " Yeah...but..no..but..yeah, but," type response).

Appreciate a different ian, but yes jelavic could have scored with both those players playing. One is a fast winger type who can rip the arse out of a full back to square etc. Gibson has a range of passing that can play him in for a one touch finish. No one else in the squad does that, with a longer / quicker pass. So yes both fit could make a difference, sitters or not.

I wasn't really talking about Jelavic, I was just pointing out the absurdity of your argument. However I would persevere with him for a while longer. You know what they say....... form is temporary class is permanent.

The "five losses in 38" is a fair flag to wave, but another way to look at the last 38 games is 17 draws. That's too many draws, and amongst those 17, the two Manchesters are really the only teams that are much better than us.

Oh, and by the way, there are so many misconceptions and wayward wording in your last post that I will wave my white flag. If we were all like you then nothing would ever change. Actually, now I think if it, are you that walrus figure who sits next to Bullshit Billy week-in and week-out?

But whatever we do Kevin, we must not question, we must not criticize, we must be lemmings, we must not ask why, right?

Now I'm the ruin of our boardroom..??!!

On Wednesday, I'll be in my seat supporting the team, just like 35 000 others.

Where will you be - on an Internet forum whining again..?

Final thought: In post 174, during a barbed rant you felt the need to inform me of how "happy," you are.

Twice.

A fan supporting his team somehow adds to the players/managers/board's shortcomings... whilst moaning at every single thing, even after a win, I suppose helps does it?

The answer to the question is that it doesn't amount to a hill of beans what we do from the safety of our seats/armchairs.

Eh? Isn't number 8 central midfield? That's Gibson and Osman when everyone's fit. He hasn't really played there since he had a run with Rodwell early last season. Or am I suffering from amnesia?

As someone said on another thread, Fellaini seems to have forgotten how to play deeper – which is a shame, because I think it's his best position. But while he's scoring or making goals nearer the front, he'll probably stay there.

I'll say this carefully so that you can now get my drift. My point was that Hudson;s mindset represents or has a great deal in common with the sort of attitude(s) that many of us identify with stale members of the board. Okay?

So Mr. Williams your silly point misses the point: "A fan supporting his team somehow adds to the players/managers/board's shortcomings". And, Mr. Hudson, your silly point misses the point: "Now I'm the ruin of our boardroom..??!!"

I'm not sure what advice to give you both here: read and think more carefully perhaps, have the nous to be less literal, read between lines now and then, understand irony and metaphor/analogy a little better?

I think Tony your little rant about supporting the shite looks a little silly now. And just to add to the silliness, I didn't moan once after our great win, but I did take exception to the sort of lemming, literal, loyalist at all costs of gloating from Hudson and his ilk when we do happen to do well and his rare appearances on these board when we do not do so well.

If there is anything in here that I will need to further explain for you Kevin and Tony, don't hesitate to post and I will do my best to make things more transparent for you both.