Everton still aiming for Champions League

And no Phil, we haven't been unfortunate. It has actually been the one year when Arsenal and Chelsea and even teams like Newcastle and the RS, who would usually have half a chance of a CL spot, haven't been as strong or as consistent as they usually would be. We haven't taken advantage and are lucky that we aren't in sixth or seventh and well off the pace with our current points total.

We are actually very lucky to still have things in our own hands as we still have to play Arsenal and Spurs.

When you look at the results building up to the debacle against Wigan you can see it was an accident waiting to happen. We've thrown away a golden opportunity of CL football, and though it is still in our hands with a set of four 6-pointers against Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea all are away from home so the odds are stacked against us.

We are on the far outside track on the final bend now Phil, and thanks to our appaling mid-season form we can now enjoy watching the teams around us slip through on the inside - most galling of all, Liverpool.

If we were clear third with our forthcoming run in I'd be anxious, as it is I'm persuaded on by blind faith that we'll do something, which I know will translate into nothing more than hollow disappointment.

An opportunity lost.

Cheltenham
Bolton
Oldham
Wigan
Millwall......?

Wasters.

Then again, I expect the worst from our away games too, possibly with an exception at Chelsea what with Agent Benitez doing an excellent job trying to allow the Shite back into the top 4.

To be honest I think most people are sick of the players coming out and saying stuff like this. Like Mike says, an FA Cup Final appearance and guaranteed europa league spot was handed on a plate to us, but the players didn't produce when it mattered, as usual.

They bottled it and showed absolutely no desire. I want them to do their talking on the pitch.

I also disagree that its fantastic to be challenging for a CL spot. Fantastic would be qualifying for europe or winning a trophy. Finishing as best of the rest would be a good season in my eyes, but not something we should deem great.

Them playing two games in a week does play into our hands a little as we traditionally play a high tempo game that helps when the players are fresh (a small crumb of comfort when you flunk the cups and no European football).

Spurs have impressed me, as I doubted the appointment of AVB. I still don't rule out a Spurs slump as they play us, Chelsea, Man City and Wigan away who are desperate for points. Everton have got results against the top 6, but have struggled against the bottom 6.

If we were doing rubbish and other teams were playing well (usually the case) then no-one on here would be saying we'd handed anything to anyone. Arsenal and Tottenham are playing just as well as they normally do and 4th looks at being there or there around the average number of points it always is.

Why is it our fault that the RS keep changing managers and buying rubbish? They've been in and around this position for three years now and were behind us last year, they've hardly let us in, have they?

Equally Newcastle are not casual Champions League challengers like some make out, they weren't even in the Premier League a few years back and had one good season where they made 5th, they're back showing their true colours now. They didn't let us in either.

The truth is that only Arsenal are worse than they were last season (taking Newcastle out of the equation). Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs all have statistically better teams. The difference is that we have improved a lot more than they have so that we are now rubbing shoulders with them. We should have more points but every team in the league can make that argument.

The reality is that our squad isn't big enough to never have a dip in form and when we did have that dip and have some injuries we managed to keep the points ticking over. No-one's given us this chance to be where we are, we've earned it — and for once I just hope we take it.

Cups a different matter but our league form over the last 18 months has been pretty strong.

Tony J, I think it is in our nature to be fatalistic. We could win all of our remaining games and still think that something will happen over the summer to stop us from playing in Europe next season.

Given past history and current form, I'm not going to hold my breath on this...

Personally I don't think we'll manage 5th, let alone get a CL spot. Arsenal Spurs and Chelsea are too strong and will likely beat us when they play us anyway.

The f'ck in the cup was a real blow - I don't think we will ever have such an easy route to Wembley again.

Why should we totally write off our own chances? Even more silly, why are you writing off Chelsea? There are lots of points to play for... yes, we are rank outsiders, but we have to stay positive and dream or we might as well write this season off altogether.

I think I voted on Toffeeweb at the beginning of the season that we would come 6th but now I think probably 7th.

Either Wigan or Millwall will be in the final. They will get the Euro spot - win or lose in the final.

Bollocks if you ask me. I understand the winner getting the spot, but to defer it to the runner up is a daft idea. It should go on league placing - and I say that without a hint of bias.

We will never know, of course, but if we could have brought in Fer in January, we might have kicked on a little further (example, beaten Norwich)?

I so much wanted Villa to win yesterday.

If Moyes decides to stay, he really needs to start doing something about our away record against the usual suspects — very difficult at this time of year to align all our thoughts, aspirations, moans ambitions etc to what's happening on and off the field.

I'm a little late to post on the other thread re Moyes staying/leaving and planning for our future. I agreed the other night when we were watching the Stoke game on ESPN, give him one more season, but give him some financial firepower to go out there and bring in 3 or 4 decent names. If that money isn't forthcoming, perhaps his mind is already made up anyway.

Alternative for a new manager? Would prefer British, maybe Lee Clarke (sacked by Huddersfield when they were doing well anyway), myself, or Paolo de Canio's missus. If shes as fiery as him, things won't be too dull about the place.

The priority is for the FA Cup Final to yield a Europa qualifier. If Chelsea won the final and finished in the top 4 then this spot will therefore go the runner-up.

However, if Chelsea won the final but didn't finish top 4 then they would get the Europa spot assigned to the FA Cup winners. In which case if they finished fifth then they wouldn't need the Europa spot assigned to that league position and hence it would go to the sixth placed team.

So the only way that sixth place will qualify for Europe is if Chelsea win the cup and finish fifth.

Happy to be proven wrong if anyone has more reliable information...

If he said nothing the players would be written off on here as lacking in self belief and being resigned to failure. The reality is that it's so called supporters who are in that category, and who should be looking themselves in the mirror and asking themselves what help their negative comments are to anybody. Same suspects as usual... Kunal Desai never seems to say anything remotely positive for example.

2pts dropped at home to Newcastle despite scoring 2 good goals that were disallowed.
Should have had a pen at home to Arsenal.
Dodgy free kick at home to Norwich. Thats 6 points better off for staters and we shot ourselves in the foot away to Norwich, Reading & Fulham too, outplayed chelsea at goodison.

For balance we got off lightly against the shite and got out of jail against spurs even though theirs was a fluke.

I think Arsenal and Cheslea will do it as spurs do have some tough games - us and city at home, away to chelsea, away to wigan who will be fighting for their lives and stoke hopefully wont lie down.

Tough ask but seems that many people have given up already.

For the people that mentioned Newcastle, really - they finished above us last year but when before that?

You say " I wouldn't say it's not being positive"

That is grammatically called a double negative, rather apt don't you think?

If we really have ambitions to grow into a top four team, our run of fixtures between now and the end of the season, with the potential attached to each game, should be the acid test of that ambition. For the manager, for the squad and for the fans we should be looking at the next eight games as the chance to show what we are made of. Will we bottle it and then play the gallant 'we gave it a go' card in mid May, or will we go for the throat like Fergie and Utd would.

OK – let’s break Phil’s comments down….

Paragraph 1 - Lots of “We’d like to think…. “, and “If we’re going to….”’s - hardly a statement of intent is it?

Paragraph 2 - “Unfortunately for us it is a season when five or six teams at the top rather than two or three are performing well.” Bullshit. Negative bullshit at that. Since when did only two or three teams play well at the top of the league… and if so why have we only got top 4 once? If anything it’s the other way around this year, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool have all been there for the taking and we’ve let them off the hook.

Paragraph 3 - Blaming money and the Jan transfer window. Well did Moyes have the money or not? If he did why didn’t he get someone in early like Liverpool did with Sturridge? If he didn’t what was he playing at, especially the fiasco at the end? Either way if this is an excuse for not being in the Top 4 he’s blaming either Kenwright or Moyes for it, or both.

Paragraph 4 - “he has done the best with the players he’s got in” – what, Oviedo and Stones?!?

Paragraph 5 - Hhhmmmm, no sure about that one Phil. I suspect Rodgers and Co are counting the days to May 4th.

Paragragh 6 – Lets end on a positive note – I know - the Wigan game (!?). The Wigan game wasn’t a “general reminder” Phil, it was a complete fuck up!!

Why are we where we are and not higher…? Phil says money. I take his point but the real reason is not being able to keep a clean sheet for months and not being able to kill teams off when we’ve dominated possession, causing more draws than 90% of the league and in some cases all three points dropped.

So what are we going to do about it? I don’t know Phil because you’ve not really told us have you. Where in this is there anything meaningful that outlines what we need to do now to get Top 4? Joe has said more in #364 than our stand in Captain has in the entire piece.

That game in hand you’re referring to is away at the Emirates Joe, as I’m sure you know – so, yes, if we beat Spurs and Arsenal away we will be back in the hunt, and quite rightly so. However, if we lose those games I’d say our chances are pretty much over so either way they could be pivotal.

The point in all of this is we’ve left ourselves in the position where we have to win those games to stand a chance, not the other way around. We could’ve easily have put them in the position where they’d have to win them to catch us had we not screwed up after such a great start.

This is why Moyes and Co will ultimately fail, because they are incapable of taking advantage when it really matters, whether it be in the league, a cup tie or the transfer window.

I support the team as much as the next man but don’t expect me to start banging the drum and get behind meaningless twaddle like this, the same old cliché’s and platitudes rolled out because someone, somewhere has got to talk to the media, and yes Phil, today that man is you.

I could’ve done it for him and saved him the job:

“We’re going to play 4-5-1 and see how it goes.”

But hey, this stuff is clearly meat and gravy to other posters on this thread, so why not just keep dishing it out – the love it!

The facts, so far as I see them here, are that we are well in touch with teams above us who other people see as out of sight already and we have to play three of them, as well as the closest team below us also. That might set some people thinking our task is harder but in my view it is not as it is in our own hands. We don't have to win all games to stay in touch in that scenario and hope the others drop points - in reality winning two or three of those has us in a much better position as we also deny them points at the same time.

Not saying it's not a big ask, but if you ask me whether I'd rather it was in our hands or if we were relying on other teams to drop points I know which scenario I'd take every time.

While the above are all possible we need to keep believing as do the players and manager obviously. Why give up with eight games to go, especially as you rightly point out it could swing either way.

Arsenal still have Man U to play and spurs have Chelsea, City and a number of teams fighting relegation and Chelsea proved again on Saturday how inconsistent they are. Crucially we play the four teams around us and whilst difficult games we have taken points off all of them in the last twelve months so nothing to fear. Suits us perfectly with little expected and onus on the other teams on their own pitches so there is definitely a chance.

Arsenal — (Home:) Norwich, Everton, Man Utd, Wigan (Away:) WBA, Fulham, QPR, Newcastle

Chelsea — (Home:) Sunderland, Swansea, Spurs, Everton (Away:) Fulham, Liverpool, Man Utd, Aston Villa

Everton — (Home:) QPR, Fulham, West Ham (Away:) Spurs, Arsenal, Sunderland, Liverpool, Chelsea

Liverpool — (Home:) West Ham, Chelsea, Everton, QPR (Away:) Reading, Newcastle, Fulham

Man City — (Home:) WBA, Wigan, West Ham, Norwich (Away:) Man Utd, Spurs, Swansea, Wigan

Man Utd — (Home:) Man City, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Swansea (Away:) West Ham, Stoke, Arsenal, WBA

Spurs — (Home:) Everton, Man City, Saints, Sunderland (Away:) Chelsea, Wigan, Stoke

And wouldn't you just love it ( to coin a phrase! ) if we got a result at Chelsea on the last day that took us into the top four and them out of it? So many angles to enjoy that scenario from I'd spend all Summer on a cloud!

And that is now what we have to do: one game at a time, but hang on in there and believe anything is possible, because at the moment it is.

It's not the fixtures where people give us no chance that are the problem as we often do better in those, it's the "nailed ons" that we are expected to win. Some of those that we have lost or even drawn have been shocking.

It's the 6 home draws that are the most galling and not even all of them.

Just the daylight robbery of Newcastle and Arsenal with clear disallowed goals, plus the mugging by Chelsea when we should have won would put us 3rd already had they panned out as deserved wins. Even factor in horseface's disallowed goal puts us 4th (although he shouldn't have been on the pitch by then anyway).

The despair I can cope with, it's the hope that's the problem.

Ah well, que sera sera...

Chelsea - L - 3-1
Arsenal - L - 1-0
Spurs - L - 2-0
Liverpool - L - 3-0

So – played 4, scored 1 and conceded 9 – nil points.

However, in your defence, the season before we drew 3 and lost 1.

If we manage the same this year or better, as Joe quite rightly says, then it boils down to the other fixtures. Who knows we might even win them all – but you are both right in we’ll have to take one game at a time and who’s knows what they could do?

History suggests in the Moyes era we do not do well in these fixtures, so if they are going to hit top 4 they’re going to have to make a bit of history – which as you said about Chelsea Karl, is always possible, if not usually a little improbable.

COYB.

I agree we have often bottled it on the big occasion, but for now with little expected of us by the media we at as well ride along in the slipstream, pick up results and see what happens. As fans its great we have something still to play for. We should embrace the challenge and not fear it. Corny, but true!

Whatever you think of Moyes or the defeat by Wigan – and that sort of thing happens to all teams (Man Utd yesterday went out with a whimper) – we're in an exciting position. The fact we're playing the teams around us should be viewed as an opportunity. We could be in for a series of great games. What else do football fans require from their team?

The beauty of it I guess is the fixture out of all of them which I think is really winnable is Chelsea, last game of the season, so like either you or Joe have already said, if we can go into that game as a 'winner takes all', with the added twist of Benitez thrown in then that's what it's all about isn't it. We've just made that possibility very tough for ourselves thats all, which is the frustrating thing for me. Oh we'll, roll on Spurs! I'll be in Prague but sure I'll find a screen somewhere to see how we go. :)

"impossible!! do you not know the net spend? You should be burnt at the stake... why are you so negative?"

Hopefully their large number of games might mean a few tired legs but we will have to be at out very best (despite missing two of our most influential players) just to get a point let alone a win.

I hope Heitinga does not start. Jags and Distin have good recovery pace but the prospect of Lennon, walker, Dembele and obviously Bale running at Johnny fills me with dread.

Who are the "Moyes boys" here Barry and what is your point exactly? The discussion was proceeding along the lines of possibility/probability based on existing totals and remaining fixtures. Nobody in the recent posts mentioned Moyes (except Mike having a mild and probably justified pop at him) until you try ti turn the thread into a confrontational faction vs faction argument again.

There is not one Everton supporter that doesn't want us to get fourth, but it would be stupid to think we will, if all you base your 'judgement' on is hope.

Yes there is a chance of us finishing 4th, but for anyone using any logic when making a prediction, they would have to have us finishing closer to 7th.

Doesn't make anyone more or less of a supporter and there's not much point in always 'looking on the bright side of life' if history tells you there's a very good chance you're going to be disappointed.

As you say it's a tough call but for me I would look at the games against Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and the RS that we have just played at GP.

Only Chelsea won, which was an absolutley cracking game which, for me, Everton should of won. We drew with Arsenal but once again had a dubious man in black calling the shots. We beat Spurs, again we made hard work of it - but we beat them. Now for the poxy RS game - this game relies on so much going right on the day, or then again absolutely fuck all going right, just having luck on your side and keeping 11 players on the pitch.

One thing for sure, Everton are no position to lose at WHL, so you can bet your mortgage payments that Moyes will be going to Spurs to NOT lose. For me that is guaranteed - so, there will not be 2 up front and we will have 5 in the middle of which one could well be Neville (maybe man marking Bale). It's going to be happy fucking days on TW if we lose on Sunday. Yet you know what, I have a feeling that Everton's shot at top 4 will not end this Sunday.

Now I'm getting ready to face cockney abuse by the shed load, for me Spurs fans are total fucking knob heads - but fella, we blues will give it back big style.

Look at Newcastle: they had a great run last year and ended up in the Euro league, and now they are struggling in the BPL. They do not have a deep enough squad for Europe play either, and they are finding out the hard way the consequences of that.

Will we do it? Probably not

Do I believe? Always

When I start using logic to predict results of games which haven't been played yet I may as well give up watching them.

Years of disappointment and maladministration have stripped so many of us of our faith and optimism unfortunately, maybe it will do the same to me to in time, but not just yet!

It might make us a few bob, and potentially get a few players interested in playing for Everton (Ever-who? – they cry all over Europe) but our league form would suffer due to our small squad and we'd barely get out of the group stages in my opinion.

Is it really the holy grail we all think it is? Look at the established CL teams – they have things we don't – big squads, European pedigree as far as exposure and being involved every year are concerned (some of them have even won a few), nice big fancy stadiums and financial backing. We don't have any of those things.

In all honesty, it would probably do us more harm than good.

We will never improve or have any hope of a serious Buyer until we get into that competition. Sure, we might get an occasional hammering and it could affect our League form, but I'd take a season coming 12th and struggling a bit if it meant a realistic chance of getting shut of this crappy Board and some big Euro nights at Goodison.

Did you attend the Villarreal match? The noise before the match rivalled Bayern Munich in 1985. That's what we want to see isn't it?