''We didn't play well enough'' — Moyes

Things can only get better. Olic joins Jelli.

Wie gehts, Norman Merrill!

Liverpool will now finish above us, we will tamely roll over at their place. Nothing is more certain.

Gutted about today... I feel as though the club have just completely given up for the season.

By the way I agree we were not at it today

Ask yourself how many times does this excuse have to be trotted out (in 11 years) before the manager is culpable?

Horses for courses in the blame game.

If we accept the players were up for it against the Arse (which I think they were), who gets the credit for that? if he gets the credit, why doesn't he get the blame when its Wigan, Norwich, Reading, Sunderland etc?

Also, getting outplayed by a Wigan team that looks like it is going down, 0-3 at home...

So I blame Moyes, that's who picks the team and played Neville in midfield for a lot of games this season when he was crap.

If only someone could work out what's happened - it's a mystery isn't it?

Let's just keep going as we are each year exactly the same as the previous.

7th, no trophies and choking in the big games ....hip hip hooray, hip hip .....

You really have to be off your cake to accept this.

Two simple questions requiring two answers.

Surely it's not all Moyes fault. He doesn't train Baines to pass the ball to the opposition does he? He doesn't show Mirallas and Baines how to overhit/underhit crosses & corners. Gibson not to be able to find a blue shirt. Heitinga to be a huge shithouse (actually, that is Moyes' fault). Vic for being a lazy bastard.

I blame Moyes for not playing Barkley instead of Osman but that's about it. The rest just pick themselves. We haven't anyone better.

You're lucky The Voice is the best thing on TV right now.

But then you see the way we play against City and Arsenal and I think Moyes is the man for Everton.

The annoying thing about Moyes is that his flaws are so obvious to everyone but him. He would rather have a proven shite player make 100 mistakes a game than blood a youngster and risk the same. At least the latter has potential to improve.

But - we do over-achieve, theres no denying that. Without Moyes we could quite easily become a Sunderland.

I'm pissed and rambling...but is it possible to want Moyes out and also 'be careful what you wish for'?

How motivated they are, what system they play, whether they are comfortable or even able is resultant of the managers judgement.

Mistakes on the pitch are inevitable it's the managers job to collect a group who can deal with the slings and arrows. The arsenal game saw a very competent Everton cue the INEVITABLE replacement of Barkley.

The Moyes pattern is stumble upon a likely looking team usually forced by injuries then change it.

He is an absolute liability.

The dilemma of 7th, no trophies and choking the big games versus a gamble to improve is the question you and others must answer.

And what is Moyes culpable for? Everything under the remit of the manager presumably. What do you want as an answer?

Why does blame have to be apportioned after every loss? Blame blame blame... was Ferguson to blame Utd losing to Reading? Maybe the Sunderland defence did a great job. Look at it that way, because they did.

Bingo. Lessons never learned by David "defensive percentages" Moyes.

Can Nick, Doddy, someone explain why DM gets the credit against City, but doesn't get the blame for Wigan?

They are his players, his signings, he coaches, trains, motivates, picks the teams, tactics and so on, what's the 70k a week for?

Moyes is great at bringing on and building a defence - over the years we've punched we'll above our weight here with the likes of Weir, Stubbs, Lescott, Jags, Distin, Baines, now Coleman and even the Shoe at their best.

Midfield has been hit and miss - Graveson and Carsley were magnificent for a couple of seasons, Pienaar (who went with his hair) forged the best left side partnership in the league and at times Fellaini has been imperious and Arteta was one of the best players weve seen in a blue shirt for years - but it took 10 YEARS to actually sign someone who could play right wing in Mirallas, Neville was accommodated far too much in recent years, Osman has NEARLY done something just as he always NEARLY does something but our midfield has always struggled to do what most fans want to see it do which is create and score goals for themselves.

Up front when you look at it we've had some success - Cahill was great but overused in the end, AJ didn't quite do it but ticked quite a few boxes, Yak when fit (.........) was a 20 goal a season striker who cut the mustard and Jelavic last season was one of the most natural goalscorers I've seen - but, and this in a way sums Moyes tenure up to me - WHAT has happened to Jelavic!?!?!? The Jelavic of last season would've taken us to the Top 4 so where's he gone? What has Moyes done to him!?!?!

So, yeah, I put our successes at Moyes door (a Cup Final, a semi, 4th, Premiership survival, working on a "shoestring", maintaining and building respect the rest of football has for us a club etc) with the failures (on the whole football dull enough to turn the blood to gravy, 4-5-1 week after week after week, complete capitulation whenever the big game bell tolls, humiliation at Anfield and in the Cup Final and v Wigan, accepting the status quo at Goodison without putting any pressure on the Chairman unless is resulted in a better deal for him, sucking the excitement out of what really makes watching football great....)

Today for me said it all, another day when his failings - his team, his tactics, his time - have got me, and others, wanting to throw the towel in for yet another time this season. He has got to go!

I never said he gets sole credit.

Who's responsible for Wembley last year, Anfield a few weeks before that, Wigan a few weeks ago?

I'd love to see DM backed to the hilt by the board, but equally I'd love to see him learn from his mistakes, drop his favourites, regardless of form and reputation if they are not cutting it and give people a chance.

Answer: He used the shoestring he got for the transfer market to tie his boots together.

Wembley, Anfield... Moyes. Wigan... players.

Wigan, Anfield, Wembley, nothing to do with DM then...

Bye Nick

I don't get it. Are you saying Man City isn't a big game or it is?

Richy says: The difference is Man Utd are due to be crowned Champions and losing once to a team lower than you when you are so far ahead doesn't have much of an impact! We were chasing 4th although I have always said a realistic 5th was what I was expecting, but because of the Cups even a place in Europe for us is not guaranteed! If you take the credit for a good performance then you need to accept the blame when you lose....

Now Look at this way as you say: David Moyes in the past 10 years to my knowledge has never come on any program TV or Radio and said "I picked the team or played that formation" and its all my fault I got it Wrong today! But you were right about one thing! Sunderland were up for it today why? because they had a goal! to survive and under their new untried manager they had faith that they could do it with a team average of 26 years old! Unlike us today a team average of 30, no pace, No recognized strikers, two midfielder s playing with injuries, one of the best defenders on the physio`s bench! Barkley gets dropped, Vallios on the bench, we play Naysmith who actually managers to turn an penalty area attack into a 20 yard back-pass....

We have a manager who has taken us as far as he can... 10 years is way to long for a Manager who has won nothing ever with this club! I suggest he leaves on good terms with the Thanks of the fans! instead of being chased out by angry supporters who blame him and the board for not doing more for this Fantastic Club! Now does todays defeat mean he is now leaving us ? because he has stated he will wait until the end of the season and see what happens! Well now there is nothing left to see....

Thank you David Moyes for giving us stability over the last decade if nothing else...Good luck with your new club who ever they may be...

Frustrated? You bet your life I am.

Also Big Vic is rubbish always has been always will be. Can anyone on here tell me any other Premier League side that would buy Big Vic? Moyes should have set our team up around Jelavic and persevered and if he did not like him then bring in one of the reserve team strikers and bloody well give him a go.

I will make one or two observations though.

One thing thats always irked me about Moyes is the standing on the sidelines barking every pass, tackle and fart to the players, like he's a dad watching a kids game. These are players at the pinnacle of their careers. Do we see Jose Mourinho doing it? SAF? Wenger? Anyone????

The manager obviously has so little faith in their ability to string two passes together and make the right choice that he feels the need in almost every game to shout second by second instructions to every player with the ball.

It makes you wonder:

a) What the players work on during training.
b) Whether it undermines the players performance on the pitch.

Imagine if someone with less talent and ability than you was stood over your shoulder at work telling you in minutiae how to perform your job. I think that'd annoy the fuck out of me as well as compromising my ability to do my job.

If the players are not motivated to do the job, its Moyes job to motivate them. Thats squarely his responsibility. Motivation is the difference between sunderland yesterday and sunderland 3 weeks ago. Most players will go out and give a decent level of effort, but decent is not enough, when margins are fine. The team who want it more will win, as we've seen.

If Moyes had just walked through the door I'd have more sympathy for him, but they're all his signings, so I don't

Boys pen Billy WON'T sack Moyes.

Moyes WON'T change and will stay or go as the mood takes him.

What I don't want, at thestart of next season ( whoever is in charge ) a repeat of the Lescott fiasco with Baines, Fellaini or heaven forfend both going through the motions

I noticed Moyes when Baines was on the ball in the first half.

He was shouting, "Back to Sylvain!"

Baines turned outside and played the ball down the line to Pienaar. Not a bad pass but Pienaar didn't get to it.

Moyes: "No no no no no!"

I've played as a full back and nothing annoyed me more than a manager dictating my game. You have a conflict of interests. You do your best to become the best player you can. Do you trust your judgement and risk the wrath of the boss or do you just remove your footballing brain and allow him to control you?

Its going to be an interesting summer...

He is not good enough, and Moyes's decision to play him all the time is not good enough.

Spot on mate. I've actually got to the point that I won't debate with any Blues who rate Osman — I take the view that they probably haven't played much footy themselves. He just doesn't affect games enough, and we've wasted seasons on him now.

If I ever hear about his Macclesfield goal again, I'm gonna hit someone, 'cos his goal return is shit for the amount of times he's in decent positions.

Mobility poor, strength lacking, vision average — I could go on! Championship, at best!

When was the last time Osman or Pienaar had a good game? They both look absolutely shattered after 15 minutes.

I'm sick of pointing out the bleeding obvious...but Oviedo! I'm not saying he is world class, or even that he'd win us games, but surely, SURELY he has shown enough to warrant more that 2 minutes on the field each week.

Also McAleny. Can we please add another dimension to our bench. Yes he probably isn't ready - but he has pace and can finish. Can we not have another option to bring on for 15 minutes when chasing a game?

It's now got to a point where we could all name the starting 11, the subs bench, the subs used and the times they will be made, all on a Friday evening.

The one time he dares to shake it up, with Barkley in there, and we play like a reinvigorated side.

The next week Moyes back to filling his pants and playing a half-fit Osman.

FFS

His philosophy of "punt it long, win the ball in their half, pressure them into mistakes" is not too dissimilar to what we do. Obviously there's more to us than just that but the similarities are there.

Ireland had some success with this but, against top European players, came up short. Players like Sheedy, Whelan, Townsend, Keane were all playing in footballing teams but the manager didn't trust them to pass it and play the game as they saw it where Clough was the opposite and later Ferguson.

My point is we've had players like Arteta etc who the manager was loathe to play central midfield initially favouring ball winners.. 10 years later, we're still playing Neville/Heitinga, worrying more about stopping the opposition than controlling the ebb and flow of the game.

IMO, this is why we come up short against the better teams when it matters and why we rely more on pressure and hopeful crosses than control — and why Everton is the strikers graveyard.

It's sad that Moyes has a reputation for bringing young players through, yet, he overlooks Barclay, Oviedo and Duffy (all three very interesting players), even when circumstances cry out for their introduction.

I thought the referee was awful yesterday, and gave them all the 50-50 decisions and almost all the 30-70 ones too! It makes a difference; our gentlemanliness works against us.

We gave Wigan a free pass to the final, after doing the same last year to Liverpool, and now Bainesy gifts a point, which was all we deserved, to Sunderland. Well played, Howard and Felli.

Howard did play well but I thought he should have kept their goal out. Fellaini was the only one who looked arsed.

Yes, quite regularly, actually.

There's often a point in the aftermath of these games, where everyone is ready to make (often legitimate criticisms), that *everything* becomes some kind of "evidence" of Moyes' failures.

Moyes is a failure because he stands on the touchline and shouts instructions at his team? Please.

But of course he has 'clever feet'. And he's now an England International. It's enough to make you weep.

I think Osman certainly made Baines's ball look bad - and Howard's attempt at a save left me nonplussed.

With the ay today is looking we'll finish sixth, possibly seventh. It's really really frustrating since better team selection could've made all the difference. But that's easy to say. Moyes is good at buying, but his man-management and tactical skills are poor (at best), in my view. His lionizing of Osman, for instance, is shocking. Osman isn't even a cub!

Does anyone (else) think that referees are less scared to give decisions against us than against most/all other PL teams?

I seriously hope that he along with Barkley and Naismith do not read these forums. Maybe that's why they seem to play without confidence when given a chance. Maybe that's why young Ross needs to feel like he needs to do something spectacular every time he gets on the pitch or he's going to get called 'ordinary' or 'overrated' on these forums.

As much as I love the site and these forums to get my daily dose of Everton news and reports, I feel that, depending on whether we have just lost or won, the atmosphere on the forum changes dramatically. We've just lost away at Sunderland and yes it is disappointing but the atmosphere on here suggests that Doomsday is upon us.

We beat Man City the other week and Osman scored a fantastic goal. People seem to forget this off the back of a disappointing defeat and seem to want to bring the lad down instead of encouraging the team, accepting defeat and accepting that the team lost as a team. Osman didn't lose the game, Baines didn't lose the game. We were not collectively good enough and many of them didn't play well enough.

Whilst I do agree with many of the opinions on these forums, I feel like the fickleness is shocking and that the constant lambasting of Osman and others is totally unfair and unjust. Yes, he didn't play well at the weekend but maybe this weekend will be different and may win the game for us. Who knows? COYB!!