No truth in Duffy rumours

Good!

I heard that a snippet in the Daily Mail had announced that Shane Duffy has joined Tranmere on loan. I logged on here immediately to get confirmation but there was nothing here yesterday.

I cannot do justice to the rage if this were true. I would absolutely feel like fucking giving up.

Why?
Doesn't it make sense to let him go out on loan?
He's fourth choice centre half and he will only play if two of our others are injured.

What about competition for places, Jamie? What about the performance of our U21's in the revamped reserves competition? Or doesn't it matter that they get tonked week in week out because we have released all our fringe players or let them go out on loan?

One injury is all that would be needed to see him doing bench duty for the first team. Two isn't exactly unfeasible, and if you have to drag him back from Tranmere or wherever, are we going to be patient enough whilst he takes a couple of weeks to settle back in at Everton?

Our potential first choice looks good, but our back-up players are scarce (including defensively if you consider one of our central defenders may be required to cover left-back) and largely unproven. We should be adding players to our squad, not thinning it out even further.

Another loan will help him as he is clearly not ready (if ever) for Premier League football – too many mistakes, too many poor passes.

I suppose it depends on how competitive the U21 league is.

I like Duffy but I can't see him playing that often this season. He isn't good enough to play regularly yet.

I wouldn't keep him here just for competition with Jags, Distin and Johnny. I doubt they'll be losing any sleep about losing their place to him. Not yet anyway.

I agree with you about adding players but there's a little bit of trouble finding money at the moment.

He might just as well go out on loan, at least he will have the opportunity to continue his progress in the game.

I get really frustrated (and angry) when I hear and read people say how good Moyes is with young players. That might have some truth if the player is a striker or possibly a midfielder but a young defender has no chance with him.

It seems that in Moyes's mind you can't possibly defend in the Premier League if your under 25, which is in my opinion complete bollocks – look how far the likes of Smalling and Jones progressed, to full international level, when Whiskeynose gave them a chance.

Let's be honest, Moyes would rather play Hibbert at centre back or Distin at left back than give one of our promising youngsters a chance. So this applies equally to the likes of Bidwell and Garbutt as well.

Sorry lads, but at your age you've got no chance at EFC.

Mike, when he played for the first team last season, he was the best defender on the park.

If you were judging players on the basis of pre-season, I reckon most of our squad would be deemed not good enough.

Mike Oates, are you insane? Shane Duffy along with Heitinga would, in my view, make the best central defensive partnership in the Premier League. Much as I admire Phil Jagielka, I am convinced that Shane Duffy, with a decent run in the side, will be the better option.

I fear, though, that – like Barkley and the other young players – he will only get a chance if a Moyes favourite is injured. I have said it before and I make no apology for repeating it: Shane Duffy will be a star.

Since Moyes took over - and he's had a decade in the job now - there isn't a single player who has come through from the juniors and made a shirt his own. What happend to the Jeffers, Balls, Rooneys and Cadamarteris? Even Hibbert was a product of the Smith regime.

10 years, a state-of-the-art training facility, a reputation for giving young players a chance, and still the Rodwells, Baxters, Barkleys, Wallaces and Duffys aren't making it.

The average age of the side has risen to pre-Moyes days and for a club which can't afford to compete in the cut-throat transfer market, you'd expect at least one youth academy graduate would be good enough to stake a claim in over ten years.

Oh, and I forgot to say that Osman and Rooney were already on the verge of the first team when DM took over, and even then he shipped Osman out to Derby, and it took the pressure of the fans for Rooney to be included, albeit grudgingly and piecemeal.

Rooney was included due to pressure from the fans??? Sorry mate but that is bollocks. He was started in the opening game of Moyes's first season, at home to Spurs and featured in most games that season. Albeit a lot of sub appearances. Which I think is fine bearing in mind he was six-fucking-teen. And Radzinski and Campbell were both playing well that season. The following season Rooney started almost every game. Moyes has enough faults for us to slag him for but not playing Rooney often enough isn't one of them.

Mick, equally, noone that has left under moyes has made it elsewhere in the premiership or at highest level with the possible exception of ruddy. So surely that suggests that the players have not quite been up to it...

Moyes may be damn right about how or when he starts / feeding in slowly / loaning / disciplining the youngsters (like in the 30s 60s even 1980s) but his approach, again, in my opinion is based on those old work ethics of 'stick at it young man – young-fellow-me-lad lines...

But what we have now with this self-centred, self-serving, money-grubbing, vanity-ridden Babylonian ethiced one-sided 'most money = best team' sham of a "Premier" League is a completely different mindset from the youth of yesteryear.
Once Rooney's head was 'turned', Moyes struggled to keep him in check. It was like he was a kid on meta-tartrazine !....

Alex Ferguson was NO different with him! ... even till recently.(remember the "I'm leaving or give me £200k per week" shit!).

I have heard from a few sources, that the current crop of 'kids', specifically Baxter, Barkley, McAleny and others have become 'infected' the same way, à la Rooney, and the story goes Barkley told Moyes he'd love to play for a bigger club like Arsenal one day (soon) !!.... Which apparently turned into... "Fuck off till April", which in turn was press re released to "We'll give him a start in April"!

McAleny has had even less limelight,again,he's supposed to be gobbin off left right and centre about how hes wastin his talent stuck in the reserves.

Last but not least as well of course we have a chairman with no money, that's probably making them feel like 'urchins' (!) in Fagin's Victorian den!

Wayne #403. I'm with you, I watched him defend from behind the goal @ Spurs last season when he came in for an injured Distin (I was in the Home stand that day), and he was brilliant. Captain Pip talked him through the second half and for some reason Heitinga picked up MOM, but from what I sawa about 20 yards in front of me is was Duffy put the blocks in, clearing with his head just as good as Johnny.

I guess the question marks are can he do that week in week out against the likes of Man U, Newcastle (away), Chelsea, bit of a risk. Sending him on loan would reduce that risk and will help him progress, but only to a top Championship team (not sure Tranmere are that).

Andy, you think at the moment, Duffy is better than Jags and Distin? An England international and one of the most experienced Prem defenders in the league at the moment? I don't know where you get that from.

I agree he has a lot of potential, and he was very impressive when he came in for those few games, but if you want to flip the coin, he has only played regularly in League 1 level, and Burnley shipped him back to us after one game, they obviously thought he was a bit out of the depth.

I was dissappointed with the Tranmere rumour because I think he should experience Championship level football this season, then hopefully he can succeed Distin when he eventually retires.

I think the point that Ben makes is a very important one here.

I've only seen Duffy in his 4-5 first team games and another 4-5 for the reserves. Not really enough to form a proper opinion.

Because of this I look at what he's achieved so far. As far as I can see Moyes is certainly not the only one who doesn't see it. He was sent out on loan to a league 1 club, then a championship club where he couldn't get a game, then league 1 again. He was called up for an Ireland squad where they gave run outs to a few different players but he couldn't force his way onto the pitch in a friendly and wasn't in the next squad.

To me, this suggests he perhaps isn't ready to be one of the best centre halves in the league or even to force his way in ahead of current Dutch and English internationals and our player of the year. I'm pretty sure that we're not stopping him from going on loan to the Championship so maybe no teams there want him?

I remember there being similar calls for Peter Clarke to be blooded in the first team, the fact that he's spent the majority of his career in the 3rd tier suggests people were wrong about that, I hope Duffy doesn't turn out to be the same.

Jimmy, a very negative post about a very good young player. Of course we must bow to the superior knowledge of David Moyes, but, you know what, he gets it wrong now and again.

A coach who believed that Lescott is a better left back than Baines. That Osman and Anichibe are wingers and, best of all, that Jagielka was a midfielder, might just have this one wrong. Duffy comes in, plays well and then gets replaced by Hibbert.... (No criticism of Hibbert – who I admire.) Moyes is too conservative to drop his favourites no matter how badly they play. I don't know how good our young players are but it seems to me that Pele couldn't displace Phil Neville.

Not everyone show their potential in training. Young players need a vote of confidence and a run in the side. They don't get it under David Moyes unless it is forced on him.

Andy, a very negative post about a very good young manager.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Nice one,Paul.

Jimmy @521, with the Ireland squad, Duffy has had to deal with Trappatoni's ultra conservative approach. If people think Moyes is conservative and only picks favourites, they should look at Trappatoni. Against Italy in the Euros, he played a striker out of position as a fifth midfielder when it was obvious for the whole game that the guy wasn't suitable.

At the moment Messi, Maradonna and Pele wouldn't get a look in with Trappatoni because he just won't change his starting eleven. I think Andy @555 sums it up. Moyes would rather play a player out of position rather than try something new.

In relation to Peter Clarke he did get a run of games before Tony Hibbert came along.

For me, I think the transfer window has gone against Duffy and Garbutt. While I am more than happy at the fact that we haven't had to sell Baines or Heitinga or Jags yet, it has meant that players like Garbutt and Duffy, who are ready to step up, now won't get a look in. I think that both players may be knocking on Moyes' door looking for reassurances about where they are in his plans.

Andy you appear to have somehow totally missed the point of my post.

The whole point was that Moyes may well get it wrong, but it's less likely that Moyes, every championship manager that he's no doubt been offered to, Eddie Howe who had him and didn't play him, and Trap are all wrong. Not impossible by any means, but unlikely.

I agree that not everybody shows their best in training and if we were having a nightmare at the back then i'd be all for putting him in, but as it is I think our centre backs are all excellent and whether he (or you) likes it or not, he's going to have to show something to get into the team.

Also as an aside I don't know if you ever saw Lescott play left back but he was bloody good to be fair.

Kieran, the same applies to you, if it was just Trap then fine but it's not. As I said, I've only seen a bit of the lad, but what I have seen allied to the points I made suggests he might not be quite as good as some people make out. Similarly you say Garbutt is 'ready to step up' but on what basis? I've seen even less of him than Duffy but an exiled blue who watched him a number of times for Cheltenham last year tells me he was good but not stand out, and that's in League 2. Imagine if we bought a player from League 2 who people were saying wasn't even the best player in his team and put him into our defence, people would be calling Moyes all sorts.

Guys, Duffy is being exaggerated a bit, in a Barkley-esq manner. He looks a good prospect, but definitely shouldnt be in above any of our very good senior players. I think a loan wouldnt be the worse idea, as we could always call him back if injuries hit.

And guys...do you think possibly our young players are just not good enough? I mean who actually has been producing players from their academy? (not buying them and nuturing them for a couple of years). It's not like we have loads coming through in the Premierleague...Moyes has given Rodwell a chance, Anichebe, Vaughan etc..our record is actually as good, or better than most of the premierleague teams, so don't re-invent.

And did'nt Moyes just sell one of his favourites? maybe he is not so prone to the security of the old guard.

Jimmy, do you not think that the only way to know for sure is to give these players games. Duffy got a number of games last year and was very impressive. On the strength of that you should try to give him more time to see what happens, not less.

Do you not think it is fair to give Duffy game time in the the likes of Carling Cup or FA Cup, to encourage him and say show me again how good you are. The same goes for Garbutt. Moyes should be saying, right then here is game time with the first team, show me what you can do. Instead he ignores them.

I agree with the point you're making Kieran but with the rather large caveat that they have to show that they're good enough to justify it.

Basically if it comes down to just 'throw them in and see if they're good enough' where does it stop? Should we be giving young lads who are playing at their local park a run out? The players have to be up to a certain level to get into the team ahead of the current first teamers, if they're not then forget it, I want good players in the side not sympathy votes because a lad's only young.

Personally I didn't think Duffy was 'very impressive' when he played. I thought he was 'ok'. Maybe in the same bracket as players like Anichebe and Coleman, you know the ones, young players who Moyes gives chances to but everybody says are crap and shouldn't be playing.

When we lose a young player like Duffy or Garbutt to City, United, or even Villa or Sunderland so that they can get first team football then it will show they probably should have been given a chance. If they keep going to Tranmere and Rotherham then it suggests the decision not to play them was correct.

So who should we drop to just give the lad a go? Our defence was one of the best last season, why bring him in just to see if he can make it?

In regards to Lescott, the lad managed to get his first England call up playing left back, so I imagine he played ok there.

Tony, in the first part of the season I thought our defence was poor.

@Kieran (617) - That makes sense in principle, but it also clashes with the increasing pressure to win a trophy. So it turns into a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation. Play the first choice team in League/FA Cup, get criticised for not blooding youngsters. Play youngsters or second choice players and lose, and all the criticism is about not taking an opportunity for a trophy seriously enough.

I've been relatively impressed with Duffy when I've seen him. It's tough to give younger players like that an opportunity, though. Part of the problem, I think, is that we very rarely put ourselves in a comfortable enough position in games to safely blood youngsters. e.g. It'd be great to have the opportunity to give youngsters a taste of first team action when we're a couple of goals up with twenty minutes to go.

We never really do that; both because we're rarely that comfortable even in games we're winning, and because of Moyes' inherent conservatism. Our substitutions tend to be one experienced player for another, when surely there should be some middle ground between *starting* a youngster, and just having him sit on the bench for 90 minutes.

Jimmy, fair points. Anichebe hasn't been what we thought he would be. None of our young players have gone on to bigger and better in a while.

Robin, well said. I like the damned if you do, damned if you don't explaination. And you're right unfortunately, we are never winning games comfortably enough to throw youngsters on.

I suppose I'm just frustrated at the fact that these players seem more than capable of adding in a positive way yet they never seem to get the game time or the opportunity. We haven't got a pot to piss in yet we would rather spend money on transfer fees than play these players. I think that Duffy, who has shown enough, will just end up drifting away from the club when he could save us money over the next couple of years.