Set-Piece Goals Accepted but not Preferred?

After listening to the interview, Michael, I think he was trying to reinforce the view that hoofing, either from a set piece or open play is hit & hope footy.

Maybe it was lost in translation, but I don't think he was including free kicks within goal-scoring range, or corners.

I think I see where he's coming from. I seem to remember times when commentators would say Everton were dangerous from set pieces. This went with the inference that we would never in a month of Sundays score from open play. For men of a certain age, Kevin Sheedy was the master of the free kick and it would be difficult not to see artistry in his free kicks (and those of Hinchcliffe and Baines, less so with Stubbs and Carsley:). That being said I think I'm with him on this, when I'm at the match I prefer goals from open play, they're just a touch more euphoric. Not sure why.

Where would Manchester United and Davey Moyes be this season if it wasn't for goals coming from set pieces!

I think he wants us to reduce the 'chance' element in a match. It starts with possession but you then need quality and incisiveness. He's clearly working on this but it will take a while and new players to be brought in.

If it does start to work, why would we give away our superiority by launching a ball into the box? Obviously you need to vary it and whip one in sometimes but I get where he's coming from.

I know we're a long way from Barcelona, but it's the same premise. They out possess, out play and don't usually launch lottery balls into the box.

A Goal is a Goal is a Goal... I don't care how it comes about, I will celebrate it just as much if it trickles over the line off somebody's backside as I would if we scored from a brilliantly constructed Goal of the Decade contender.

That is the true currency of the game and it is only by scoring them at one end and preventing them at the other that you gain points and prizes. I'm sure that Roberto understands that view fully and I also understand what he means about ball retention and the need to manage matches. But all the good football in the world will not put points on the board if you do not score more than the opposition.

It's been a long time since Everton had enough players in the team who could be relied upon to score in any given match and I think it is incumbent on Roberto to find a way of the team scoring more goals whilst ensuring the back line is not breached too often. Mix it up, Roberto... that's the best way of playing; anything else will soon be sussed out and we could end up losing games where we may well be the prettier side or the team with the most possession but it is the final result that counts the most and, if set-pieces are used properly, they can add a fair number of chances to any team's armoury.

Focus from the players and a determination to score from any situation is what is required and hopefully Roberto will instil a winning mentality into his squad. I want Everton to be admired as a footballing side bu,t being greedy, I want them to win as well.

I was a bit worried by what I heard. It reminded me of a lad I used to play with who occasionally didn't bother scoring (in training) if it wasn't going to be a good enough goal.

A set piece is an opportunity to score. It shouldn't be wasted, especially when you have someone capable of delivering the ball as well as Leighton Baines. I've been frustrated with the amount of outswinging corners we've taken this season, they're so much easier to defend, and a whipped inswinger, a la Hinchcliffe, is not only dangerous but a thing of beauty.

I tell you what Roberto, why don't we take a 2-0 lead with good set pieces, then the 3rd, 4th and 5th can be beautiful goals from open play. Then I think we'll all be happy.

Set-piece goal – we've beaten the odds;
Open-play goal – we've beaten the opposition.

Both feel pretty good to me when we score them. But losing an open-play goal can feel a lot more demoralising, because you know they've broken you down.

It is a different culture in Spain. Xavi Alonso was interviewed about tackling, again he didn't understand it as a value over passing and technique. Launching it just doesn't compute.

Xabi Alonso, interviewed in the Daily Mail last year…

"Tackling is not really a quality, it's more something you are forced to resort to when you don't have the ball.

"You would come across an interview with a lad from the youth team and they've asked him his age, his heroes as a kid, and his strong points. And he would say things like shooting and tackling. I can't get into my head that footballing development would educate tackling as a quality.

"What players should aspire to is that understanding of the game. We have players like Sergio Busquets, Xavi, Santi Cazorla, Silva and Mata. They can play in tight spaces and they know how to interpret the pattern of a game. They know when to dribble and when to play a short pass. And for me that intelligence is fundamental and needs to be developed from the kids' level."

The only goals we should concern ourselves with is the second killer goal! However, the fuck it goes in, we just need to find it cos were still trying to walk the ball into the net, or don't bother with pot shots from range. I would love to see us shooting more on sight. Goals win games — not tippy-tappy shite!

I think a few have taken Martinez's comments a little too far.

There is nothing wrong with Baines screaming glorious free-kicks into the top corner... twice!

That isn't Martinez's problem. I think what he wants to avoid is free-kicks on the halfway line getting punted into the box. I can see his point on that one, but it does beg the question as to why we are still sending our centre halves up there only to play a short free-kick and have them come trotting back.

I love the Premier League because there are so many styles of play on show. I think it's what separates us from most of the other European leagues. I like what Martinez is trying to do but I hope he doesn't take it so far as to make his philosophy almost a burden.

I'm sure he won't though. He seems a very intelligent man and I'm happy to buy into the style he chooses to play.

Creating a goal in open play is the end product of accurate passing and dribbling skills. That is the sort of football I watched all the better teams play in the 60's both in club games and Internationals. The top stars are lauded because of their ability in open play, Teams like Stoke and ourselves a few years ago were noted for scoring from set pieces but scoring very few from open play that is why we were not seen as entertaining to watch.

I believe that football visually should be entertaining and just relying on physical strength and height for free kicks, long throw ins and corners is poor entertainiment in my opinion.

having played football professionally a long time ago I wanted to pay to watch players who were better than myself. I never felt that the likes of Wimbledon and later Stoke City were worth paying to watch.

We went through quite a long period of spoiling tactics to stop better ball players and rely on breakaway goals from set pieces. I understood at the time that we needed to play in that way just to survive in the premiership but I longed for the time when we could really compete and beat teams by outplaying them.

For the first time in ages we now have a squad of players who can play entertaining football. There is always the brilliance of Baines to add to our strike power with his wonderful freekicks and accurate penalty taking but I much prefer to see players who can pick a pass and finish a great move

When Baines stands over a free kick, Evertonians everywhere hold their breath.

I understand the point he's trying to make. A bad team can win the odd game on the back of a good free-kick, corner or penalty, call it lucky. As a manager he needs to know that the team can reliably score from open play because so many things can influence your set piece from one match to another.

What if Baines has an off day with corners and frees, as he's had quite a few in the past year or so? Arteta was barely able to beat the wall towards the end of his time at Everton.

What if the ref is being a total ball-bag and isn't giving you the free-kicks you might deserve in dangerous places?

It goes on... I agree with Michael in that set-piece goals can be things of beauty. I certainly thought so last Saturday. But, if you think of the low number of goals we've scored from corners and indirect frees in the past couple of seasons, open play is probably more to our strength.

He has the Barcelona mentality. They never cross the ball in the air, always on the deck, also rarely take long shots, prefer to walk it into the net. It works for them but there's something to be said for the ocassional whipped-in cross.

As Phil says, its more to do with launching it into the box from a long way out, that he's mainly talking about I think.

He wants all the players to be comfortable on the ball & retain possession till there's a chance of a shot at goal.

In other words, what our international players find impossible to do!

I know to a large extent I am merely repeating what has already been said here but I can totally see where Martinez is coming from on this.

As has been mentioned above it is clearly a case of giving us a variety of ways to win a match, as opposed to being like Stoke under Pulis, where an aimless punt or a set-piece was the name of the game. The fact remains that the best teams (the ones who win the vast majority of their games and compete for major honours) have a variety of ways of winning a game.

It is my belief that when Martinez talks about 'systems', 'methods', 'philosophies' and 'chemistry', it is not the aimless soundbite that some people claim it to be.

I am not saying that the side never used to play good football but we used to go to direct too quickly and were often afraid to do anything other than battle against the big teams. I would have no problem if we were 1-nil down in the 88th minute of a game and we started launching it, and I am sure the same would go for Martinez. What would frustrate me however, was the amount of times we would go behind in say, the 35th minute and our football would become more direct. There is no need, this is panicking and is not the mentality of a top team. I'm also not denying that this strategy did work in a lot of games under Moyes and we recovered a hell of a lot of points from winning positions. However we must do more than that - we all want to be a team at the very top, and this means more confident and more creative play.

How can we achieve this? Well the most simplistic way is to drill into the players that it is not acceptable to be crashing in set-pieces and resorting to long balls. When Martinez does this I am sure it isn't to say never do it, but rather give the current players this impression. If a player knows that he will get a bollocking from his manager for always hitting it long, he will try to play it along the floor more. Martinez needs to do this in order to engender this level of thinking and confidence on the ball in our players. If he says publicly he want pure, crisp football, but then we go behind after 35 minutes and he screams out for smashed in free-kicks and long punts from his position on the touchline - then his idealistic vision will NEVER take hold.

I also believe that this is appicable to making the England team better - when people panic and say our youth football is too competitive and talk about bringing in youth leagues with no competitive element, they are selling the national team short. We don't need to do stupid things like that, keep it competitive - we just need to adopt a Martinez style approach at youth level. If a player makes a mistake becasue he is trying to pass the ball around instead of hoofing it, still tell him off, still tell him he needs to concentrate more or his place in the team may be under threat eventually. But also let all players no that any player who is not prepared to receive and use the ball calmly and to learn from their mistakes will also be dropped and stick to this principle.This will give the youngster the incentive to learn and concentrate without sacrificing anything technical -evolution not revolution to quote Tony Hayers!! Although it must be said I don't give a stuff about the national team, just our beloved Toffees, but all this stupid talk about everything needing to change to benefit England gets right on my tits!

Back to Martinez, he knows how to get the team battling - look at the Chelsea and West Ham games. But even though we rode our luck the Chelsea game was a good example - we weren't panicking when we had the ball - he switched Mirallas up top so when the ball broke he could hold it up and bring others into play or run it into the corner. When was the last time we looked confident on the ball against a more dominant side and still threatened on the counter when under the cosh. His ideas are working.

Martinez just needs to be trusted. I have faith, perhaps the media should too.

sorry - recovered points from LOSING positions!

Didn't do us any harm against Chelsea.

If you look back at our goal, it started with a freekick about 50 yards out.

From this position, we would usually lump it into the box, but that kind of stuff is bread and butter to the likes of Terry and Ivanovic.

There was a noticable groan that went around Goodison Park when we played the ball short... but one minute later and the ball is in the back of the Chelsea net!

I don't for one minute think that if the freekick was within Baines' range or even out on the wing where you can whip in something dangerous that Roberto would not like us to attempt something a little more direct.

This is about making the right decisions in the right situations and moving on from the mindset that lumping it forward is always option number one.

I agree though that any team should also work hard to be as potent as possible from a set-piece as games are often won and lost through their execution.

And you're right Michael, an Andy Hinchcliffe corner really was a thing of absolute beauty!

also should be "let all players KNOW" - damn phone!

I'd like to see us top of the class at everything. Let teams fear us for our open play, our possession, our set pieces and our direct free kicks. We have all the tools and if anxious not to make a tackle and not to lose the ball then teams are more likely to mess up in our favour.
Martinez is doing a fine job in Evertons evolution but there are existing strengths in our DNA that should not be neglected.

I guess why would you retain the ball 60% of the time and then just punt it up when the defence has time to get organised?

Must admit I look at So'ton this year. 1 goal from open play so far - is that formline likely to hold?

Trevor (395), you said "Creating a goal in open play is the end product of accurate passing and dribbling skills."

The same can be said of set-piece goals, can't it? Both of Baines's free kicks were set up by sharp passes and fine dribbling from Barkley that forced the defenders to take him down. Or, as Terry Murphy put it, we've beaten the opposition to earn the free.

And personally, nothing brings me out of my seat quite like a perfectly struck free kick. When I played (nothing close to your level, Trevor!), I lived to take them, and they're the goals I remember best.

To be described as "being dangerous from set pieces" is to be damned with faint praise.

However I don't think the distinction should be between set piece goals and open play goals. The distinction (and there is one) is between goals that rely on luck (or percentages) and goals that rely on skill. A goal is a goal - yes, but is it likely to be repeated? Goals scored from lucky richochets falling at the feet (or head or body) of an attacker rely too much on luck - and not an indication of superiority (one of Norwich's goals against us this seaon for example).

But lucky goals can happen from open play - not just set pieces.They all count of course, but goals that do not rely on luck are a far better indication of the liklihood of the scoring team repeating it (and going on to win things). I have seen how well Southamption have been going this season (and the second half of last season) - but now I know how many of their goals come from set pieces I will worry less about them.

Michael,
I'm not sure if Robbie is saying that he won't take a well worked free kick, that's a good weapon to have in a team's armoury and we've got plenty of examples of a well worked free kick seeing the ball end up in the back of the net. So there's a place for dead ball situations.

But I wouldn't like to see our team dependent on free kicks to score, or win a match. One poster said he didn't give a ****how the ball gets in the net, as long as we score. What a sad attitude. I'm with Trevor Lynes and begun watching the Blues from around 59/60 and saw the transformation of our football from a workmanlike team to possible one of the most exciting Everton team, I have seen.

To watch the likes of Young, Vernon, Collins, play football was almost like poetry in motion. Vernon scored plenty of pens and Alex scored some cracking headers from corners and free kicks scored (especially the Surs and Burnley goals) but watching a well worked goal where we'd leave defenders on their arses while we waltzed through them, was pure magic. Couldn't wait for Saturday to see the football we produced. I think we scored 88 goals that title winning seasons 62 - 63 and the way we got most of them was a joy to watch.

The mid eighties team as well, sliced open teams with beautiful flowing football (Sunderland 4 - 1 just one example) and were on the verge of being the best team in Europe.

It didn't stop Sheedy scoring wonderful goals from well taken free kicks, or Andy Gray knocking them in from corners and free kicks.

To me, what Robbie boy is saying, is that he want's us to be like them. Don't forget, he was asked by the interviewer to finish on a one word answer about if we could get a winning goal from a free kick, would he take it and his response was (about 75 words!!) but he said "maybe" and smiled.

If he can get this current everton side playing better football than we've been used to and anything like half as well as the teams I've mentioned, then more goals will come from open play.

If that happens, I'll be chuffed to bits to see flowing, effective, football, I'll be hoping we're well on our way to being called the "school of science" again.

Still love Bainsey's beauts tho!

Cheers Mike.
I do agree that free kicks are won by dribbling but I was really talking about when we never scored from open play. We almost totally relied on corners and free kicks.

Stoke were awful to watch when they relied on the long throw in which equates to a set piece goal. They even altered the pitch size to accommodate the throw in tactic for home matches and the ball boy handed towels to the player taking them to make sure the ball was dry. It was pathetic and counter productive entertainment wise as far as Im concerned. Football is supposed to be entertaining and as far as Im concerned is the reason I watch. Of course the result is important but the way the points are won must be valuable too.

Jim Lloyd more or less totally sums up my thoughts on the game and I was also spoiled by watching the John Carey side of the 60's because he was the one who actually built the side that Catterick took on to trophy winning standards. Catterick added the final few ingredients to provide the consistency and steel of the 1963 side.
Liverpool and Everton won virtually all their trophies without foreign players and Liverpool won five European titles without foreign players too.

I love Martinez attitude to the beautiful game and I sincerely hope he achieves success with us. Its no coincidence that the best teams still contrive to play entertaining football and win titles.

If we had scored a second "killer goal" at Fulham on Tuesday night, we might still be in the League Cup, I am sure no Blue on earth would've minded how it was scored either!!!

This thread is another great one,Michael you are on a roll!
It is, as has been said already the case that goals matter the "how and the why " is a luxury. However, the WAY we play matters to the traditional Evertonian eg whilst it was pleasant for Arsenal in the days before Wenger to win everything 1-0 we want beauty and style. The current fashion is, increasingly so,tip tap, trying to copy Barcelona. It is boring if done too slowly, too square and dangerous for us against top class teams and poor teams alike. The former class prevails and latter get time to defend.
The winning teams including ourselves in the past are those who are ahead of whatever is the current flavour AND have a player of such talent that given the right ingredients triumphs. So if you had a John Charles or our Ferguson you don't use tip tap. If you have Pushkas you love dead ball situations enter Baines. So looking at our talented players now what style should we play to maximise say Lukaku, or Coleman, or Barkley ?
I'm sur Roberto will not be making a silk purse out of a pig's ear because any of the four I have mentioned are pure silk.

I'd love to know the proportion of free kicks which lead to goals from 'worked situations' rather than Baines style direct pops at goal. I don't think it would be many fancy plays that bring success.

In contrast to Trevor Lynes, I abhor the Martinez obsession with 'the beautiful game.' It is far from a guarantee of success as so many managers have discovered to their cost.The best in the profession know how to mix it up a bit.

To be fair though Brian, Martinez does talk an awful lot about being 'flexible' and 'adaptable' and playing in different ways to suit different situations, so I don't think he is quite as obsessed as some make out. I guess its just a better story to paint someone as having an extreme view on something, whereas actually he's acknowledged the need to mix it up, and we still knock it long when it looks on.

If you read what I wrote Brian I did say that Baines free kicks are a big plus and sometimes the long through ball brings results. All I tried to get across was my opinion that good football is a better spectacle and it is entertainment after all.

Keith 592, To be fair to Wenger,it was team inherited from George Graham that was winning games by 1-0. We need to be able to mix it up, launching the odd long ball up the field so we don't become too predictable.

Lukaku is good at holding the ball up and with the pace of Mirralas and the guile of Barkley, it will keep the opposition on their toes. If all corners were taken short or all free kicks from far out were launched into the box, the opposition would be well prepared for us.

A well worked team goal is a thing of beauty and will give the whole team confidence and wanting the ball more often.