Jagielka & Distin: The Dilemma

You could argue last season but you could also say last season our defenders were still in David Moyes mode. If it was all Martinez, then he needs to go back to what he was doing.

I think they'll (Martinez, coaches and players) get it sorted and we'll become a very good team but it is a bit worrying at the moment.

Obviously there were games where all 3 played at the same time but it is perhaps Distin at CB who is the problem.

Suppose we played Coleman, Jags, Stones, Distin as the back four and pushed Baines forward with Mirallas given a spot on the right side of midfield. Or only played one holding midfielder McCarthy with a back five. Roberto will I am sure find a solution but it does have to be addressed as conceding goals does very quickly erode confidence and may undermine a lot of the good work that has been done so far.

Martinez has the weekend to address these problems, I hope that there is no day of rest tomorrow for the aforementioned players and some serious soul searching amongst the ranks as to how we can remedy this problem which could become a cancer on the Clubs domestic and European campaign. It is already feeling alarmingly like the ill-fated Autumn of 2005. My priority would be the recruitment of a left sided centre half of European pedigree, Jags needs to be taken out of the firing line and Stones given the right to build upon his potential.

It is certainly a collective thing rather than just CB but the most glaring weakness is there and can be addressed by using Stones/Besic/New buy before Tuesday.

McCarthy will come good again (hopefully he won't be sold)but Barry needs his partner to be playing well to do some running for him.

Baines worries me and I have said for a year now that we should cash in now and blood Garbutt until Oviedo is fit. Baines is lightweight defensively and without Pienaar is nothing like as effective going forward.

Tim will be up and down this season as in the past – could we get Cech?

Most pressing need is a captain who can inspire on the pitch and drag the team forward but I don't see any obvious candidate?

So what are the other options: There are Stones and Alcaraz, but they did not both ingratiate themselves too well in pre-season friendlies, but neither did Jags or Distin. Actually, Duffy played quite well, but has now being sold to Blackburn for a paltry sum of money.

Why could not Everton's league matches have been more simple and pleasing this season so far, by defending well and having at least 7 points on the board instead of 2 with a -3 goal difference.

Why oh why can we not get a Shawcross or (dare I say it?) Skirtel type nasty sod in is beyond me. I'm fed up hearing we must " get the right character". FFS get a bollox in and stop this nonsensical nicey nicey people's club shite. Get a hungry animal that doesn't give a fuck about people's nice guy tags and lead from the front instead of hiding behind the fucking sofa with Billy.

I hope Roberto will get it sorted real quick as I think he's a top coach but maybe at times a little too nice. Just look at that horrible Brenda twat when he's doing his interviews. That fucker gives the smile after each comment but his fucking eyes tells you he's going to try every trick to win a game. I can't say really what type of a shite he is for fear of being banned here.

Message to Robbie: Sort it out, lad. I'm fucked off being "The People's Club". After all, wasn't that the saying from the Glum One?

I have seen comments on other threads talking about "so called fans" and about knives out for Martinez. No such thing is happening. I like the way Roberto Martinez is taking the club but he can't be right all the time and we experts on ToffeeWeb are here to point him in the right direction when he fucks up.

This is my last word on the subject but, Paul and other Evertonians; do you think we would have won if Duffy and Stones and been at the centre of our defence today?

So, my first thought would be Jags and who and that would be Stones in Bobby's world whether or not Duffy was with us. Stones and Duffy would have been too green a pair for this game but I am willing to bet that we would not have leaked six if they had started!

Jags sent our axis spinning with that 1st goal. Because of his basic error we were reeling and therefore I also blame him for the quick second while we were still in post-goal-trauma.

I would not have sold Duffy, by the way.

A few things become quite clear on a second viewing at MoTD:

1. We were not "unlucky" , If anything, Timmy Long Beard should have been given his marching orders midway through the first half. Imagine the score line if that had happened. And would you blame Roberto for this mad rush of blood? And would you replace Howard with [ insert flavour of the month transfer target GK].

2. Chelsea were very very good. Let's not be sore cunts about this. They came with a plan to hit us at 100 mph and score as many in the first half and then park the bus. They far surpassed and exceeded that. Diego Costa and Fabergas look boss. Costa will get a red card or two before the season ends though.

3. On TW, many folks are on McGeady out mode by default. I suppose he was at fault for all the six goals then? What about the two goals that he created today? Yes, he's unfit, but he carved up opposition defences so many times already in 3 games and has probably been our most creative player so far. I love a good a whine, but seriously can we give credit where it's due for a change ?

4. Why did Roberto drag his feet on bringing Besic for James McCarthy (I guess the own goal is a good enough reason – but I think he just got caught in the moment a little). Why is James McCarthy so out of gas by 75 minutes these days? Isn't this just as worrying as Jags offside trap execution?

5. What is with all this ball-watching around our box? I suppose it's because of fear of overcommitting and leading to an individual error.

6. Should we change our system and opt for a back 3 with a sweeper like Bobby used at Wigan? He's been accused of turning us into Wigan often enough... The back three would give Besic a chance to slot in as one of the three and the other two can rotate between Stones and Distin.

7. Why does Lukaku keep on playing even though he's clearly not fit? Fair play he created goal #3, but the team would have been served far better with a more mobile striker today.

The lack of fitness has forced some players to gamble more than they normally would (Jags) and has sapped the confidence of the entire back four. They played scared and every mistake was punished today. Before we call for heads, let's see what happens when the whole team is match fit.

Adding to that problem (as the OP states) is the centre back dilemma. Jags' missed much of the second half of the season, had a terrible world cup and has not looked half the player he was a couple of seasons ago. This suggests that he should be rested and replaced by Stones to see if a return to his partnership with Distin helps shore up the leaks.

Another pressing matter for Roberto to sort out is the Captaincy. Just before "moving on to better things" at the end of the season our former manager made Jagielka captain. As much as I like the lad's demeanour he his not Captain material. We need a strong, vocal leader on the pitch. Not only does Jags' need to be rested I feel Roberto needs to appoint a new Captain regardless of whether Jags' is playing or not. I fear though that both taking the Captaincy away and resting him will be two steps too far for Roberto to take as he may fear unsettling the much lauded team harmony. It's going to be very interesting to see which back four line up after the International break and I feel he should use the down time wisely to make some much needed changes before the season restarts.

Jags must be dropped - I've liked him but he is so out of form that I feel sorry for him - his confidence is shot. I thought Barry looked knackered /sluggish entire second half.

I would like to see us sign an imposing centre half, like Shawcross but don't think that's going to happen - I guess Duffy he felt couldn't cut it

The biggest concern is we have no leader to take charge when things are going wrong. 10 goals in 3 games tells its own story.

I can see Jags/Distin being rotated to Europa League duty with Stones taking the lead in the perceived bigger PL games. Who Stones partners in the centre of defence will be interesting though.

Alcaraz is also a very good passer of the ball, as is Distin, but what worries me after watching three games this season is our defending around our box. It's not just the two central defenders but the whole team: we look clueless. We stand off players, allow them to look up and pick a pass, the Matic goal being an example yesterday and Ramsey's the week previous.

Two of their goals yesterday came from wide areas after McCarthy was skinned for pace in one v ones. A cute foul is always an option, see how often Chelsea fouled around their box to stop the danger. That's football intelligence.

After the run-in last season, Stones should start in front of Jags; it's not rocket science, Stones is the better player.

But the position which needs strengthening is the keeper: Howard isn't good enough and never has been. He should have been sent off yesterday for handling outside his box and his passion for diving in the wrong direction before the ball has been kicked only highlights his poor decision-making.

I'm not as optimistic as I was after yesterday but we look good going forward, we scored two fantastic goals, and Eto'o showed us he has something to offer... but we need to address the defensive frailties.

Over to you, Roberto.

That said, I can't wholly defend the current situation – the defence has been awful but we seem to be like that at the start of most seasons and yet we go on to consolidate as the season goes on. I put the current situation down to lack of match fitness – Jags looks absolutely knackered, which in turn is down to an inadequate pre-season.

I do agree that another centre back is essential (and please not Shawcross for heaven's sake – one of the worst footballers that I have ever seen and someone who should be sent off virtually every week). Much as I admire Stones, he is still prone to mistakes and doesn't dominate in the air as much as I'd like. I seem to recall Stones started at Arsenal in the Cup last year and hardly excelled.

I think (hope) that things will improve with Jags and Distin and that things aren't quite as bad as they seem. I'd possibly play Stones alongside Distin for a while until Jags recovers his form and fitness. Meanwhile, another quality centre back in the transfer window would be very welcome. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater!

TW members know that I have never rated Stones at RB or CB. He turns his back on shots, his first three strides are too slow and he lacks a sense of urgency. That said, he is good in the air, is comfortable on the ball, can pass with both feet and can close down and tackle. A fine, naturally fit athlete, he could do the Matic role for us without too much bother. In fact, when his body eventually fills his frame, that might be his perfect position.

Stones is quicker, better on the ball, and better in the air. If he's isn't starting ahead of those 2 clowns than you've got to question the manager. A huge game at WBA, and one where I hope we see a ruthless manager, and not the nice guy.

From what evidence I've seen so far this season, the current pairing looks shot, berift of confidence, lacking in pace, and terrible in timing and decision-making. But, saying that, you must defend as a team.

Jags is the one who must be dropped. Off the top of my head, and I have the memory of a field mouse, I'd blame Jags specifically and personally for 4 of our 10 conceded goals this season. One of which (the "missed" header against Arsenal) turned 3 points into 1.

Captain is a label. It does not make you infallible or more importantly undroppable. Jags is responsible for 40% of our conceded goals and he's costing us points.

That being said, the lax defending in the final 20 minutes that has cost us 4 points now can also be solved by simply subbing Barry for Besic. Barry looks a step slow, but he needs to be sitting in front of Distin and Jags to help link the defense with the attack. That's fine, but when he's gassed after 65 minutes, he simply needs to be subbed. McCarthy also cannot be aggressive when he's concerned that his back two will be abused and he has a sidecar that has no energy. Having two guys that can be aggressive and win balls in the last 20 minutes would be key.

Besic got his terrible touch out of the way and should be better going forward. His talent is just too good.

I honestly think that fits it. One new starter and one almost standard tactical sub. That saves two subs for wingers and up front guys to make sure Eto'o gets his run as does whoever else.

Jagielka and Distin are the most experienced central defensive partnership in the league. They've played alongside one another for over five years. They shouldn't need a manager to tell them to pull their socks up and stop panicking anytime opposition players press forward. They shouldn't need to be coached on basic defensive tasks like marking a man, closing down space, staying on their feet, holding a line or timing a jump to get their head to a ball before an onrushing forward buries the bastard. It's basic stuff that should have been deeply ingrained in their playing psyche over a decade ago.

The fact they're being asked to play out from the back shouldn't negatively impact their ability to perform the very duties they're primarily being picked for.

The propensity to suddenly switch off or fold under pressure is not something that's suddenly materialised or gradually worked it's way into their game over time. It's been there since the start.

Distin has always had the tendency to go from looking solid and sure footed one minute to looking about as steady on his feet as Ed209 faced with a flight of fucking stairs the next.

Jagielka has always had the ability to time a last ditch challenge perfectly, but then you realise that the need to perform such eye catching interventions is, more often than not, caused by his own failure to anticipate unfolding danger until the very death.

This was something I tried in vain to point out back at the arse end of the 2012/2013 season when they were being held up on here as part of 'the best defence in the league':

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"The trouble is that, whilst individually they have all the attributes, they have never really convinced or looked comfortable as a partnership in the same way that Jagielka/Lescott did.

The most solid we have seemed in recent years was when Jags was injured and Heitinga stepped in alongside Distin. Now, i'm not advocating that this partnership be resurrected (especially not after Heitinga spent last season meandering around like a more short arsed version of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man), but I just find it a bit strange that the Jags/Distin combo is automatically presumed to provide this rock solid defensive platform even though we've had a tendency to ship soft goals ever since they were first paired up.

I'm in no way attempting to claim that our defence is poor or that we have an embarrassing goals against column. I'm simply pointing out that, in my opinion, the Jags/Distin partnership isn't as imperious as some claim.

To my mind, they are both good 'recovery' defenders. Distin's strength and pace get him out of trouble a lot and Jagielka's last ditch tackling is superb, but neither seem to have anticipation enough to snuff out danger before it gets to that stage. Despite all his defects (lack of heart, height, power & pace) Heitinga is a much better reader of the play unfolding in front of him.

Now, I don't normally bother with stats (because i'm much too lazy and don't spend my time fantasising about copping off with a Cylon, trying to track down a grainy copy of 'Godzilla and King Ghoddorah versus Fat Takeaway Guy' or wondering who would come out on top in a no holds barred battle between Bat Hound, Benji the littlest hobo, Krypto the super dog and that tinny, toaster looking twat that trails around after the latest tosser to play Dr Who) but I'll try and illustrate what I was referring to.

There was a stage last season where we were conceding early goals so cheaply it was almost as if they needed to hand the opposition a head start in order to wake themselves up. 18 consecutive games without managing to keep a single clean sheet is not a run you would expect from a defence some are dubbing 'the best in the league'.

In all games, there were 12 in which we did not concede. The season before we kept 15 clean sheets, but only 4 of those came before the Distin/Jagielka partnership was broken up due to Jagielka's injury. In season 2010/11 the clean sheet total again stood at 12.

Seeing Jagielka and Distin in tandem has never filled me with as much confidence as the preceding Jags/Lescott combo once did. Prior to Distin and Jagielka being paired the team managed 20 clean sheets in 08/09. They also managed the same total of 20 the season before."
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So, as I said, the weakness has always been there, it just hasn't been signposted as glaringly as it has in the last couple of games.

Now, what to do about it, I don't know. Stones is raw but ready (in my opinion). Yet, surely, we shouldn't be putting such pressure on the shoulders of a 20yr old, expecting him to step in and save the day where more senior players have failed. On the evidence of previous performances, Alcaraz isn't the answer. A new signing, slotting seamlessly straight into the side, seems unlikely. So, it's probably just a matter of persevering with the partnership we've got and,hoping against hope, they get their shit together sharpish.

He has really fell off a cliff this season. I've never seen a player so sluggish and tired in midfield after 50 minutes. He and Jagielka, at the moment are absolute liabilities.

The fourth goal (Matic's) wasn't a textbook example of backing off, it was a slight failure to close down an attempt on goal quick enough. The defence generally has to defend as a line and you don't leave acres of space behind you for attackers to exploit. This is a very poor example if you are trying to highlight a persistent weakness; it is the sort of thing that happens in games all the time because players can't be everywhere.

Agree that the defensive midfield is part of the problem, and can't fathom why Besic hasn't been getting 20-25 minutes in each of first 3 games (the back-heel was stupid but yet to see evidence it is typical). That pairing is key to the way the manager wants to play and if the two players can't counter the movement and guile of an opposing teams attacking midfield then we are in trouble. I always wanted two mobile back-ups for that partnership because I think we will really need them at times this season. Has Susic been sold yet?

But the results up to now this season cant be blamed on individual players. The pre-season was a shambles, we have gone into the season lacking basic fitness and more importantly, match sharpness. Our decision making is extremely poor across the pitch, the lads just do not seem up to speed yet. A few wins and we will settle down, a couple more bad results and the season could be over before its even started. We played some good stuff yesterday, so the signs are promising. I have never been more thankful for an international break, time to whip these boys into shape.

I hear rumours about us signing Holtby surely this cant be true, we have Barry,McCarthy,Besic and Gibson in midfield if we are going to make a signing lets hope its a central defender. We only have Stones as an alternative to Jags and Distin, and I purposely haven't mentioned Alcaraz as for me he isn't a viable alternative.

So that leaves two possibilities, a woeful lack of form, or some of our back line need to be replaced. I don't see how the third best defensive unit from last season, can all of a sudden turn into shite players overnight, so that leaves poor form as the main culprit here.

Blame the World Cup, blame a crap pre-season, or whatever you want to, but surely they will come back strongly?

I don't know how the manager will address these issues, but we need to snap out of this seemingly lackadaisical approach to defending our own 18 yard line.

Chelsea's fifth goal yesterday summed up our central defence so far, two of them not closing down players on the edge of the box was criminal.

Everton lost after throwing away two goals in three minutes courtesy of Jagielka. He is never going to fit with a Martinez type style of play he simply isn’t and never has been comfortable on the ball.

At 2-1 yesterday we were hammering away at Chelsea until Coleman’s own goal and then the game went haywire. We have one point less than this stage last season. We have been unlucky thus far and could have easily had six or seven points. Stones needs to play but we need to think about future, for all of you advocating people of the ilk of Shawcross et al, get a grip FFS. If you want a return to turgid, sterile football then cast your mind back then fine lets get Moyes back or even better Walter Smith and we can return to the halcyon days of teams full of defenders with Steve Watson at centre forward. Stop moaning and support the team.

You say the previously solid defence has now become "currently the worst defence in the Premier League.

We are coached by a guy who's teams have always challenged for the dubious distinction of having the worst defence in the League

Go figure

Darren @42, your argument has some merit - but then how do you explain last season when we had the third best defence in the league?

Darren, you are simply ignoring the fact that the manager is trying to make us more competitive. If his remit was just to keep us at the same level as we already were then of course it would make sense to copy the tactics of OFM. It is inevitable that if you take a group of players and ask them to be more offensive minded then you run the risk of being more open at the back. Against some teams / performances you are liable to come unstuck. The only other way to do it is to spend an awful lot of money on top players to make sure that the risk of a more adventurous approach automatically leading to extra pressures on the defence at times is minimised as much as possible.

We have not suddenly become Wigan any more than we have suddenly become Barcelona.

Howard at fault for three goals yesterday and countless more past and future. Coleman and Baines good going forward, can't defend.

Distin a player in the twilight of a not so stellar career is plainly not up to the job and Jagielka a player of limited ability and absolutely not a defender of Premier class. His continuing appointments for England tell you all you need to know about the incompetence at England's national team management level.

Martinez who has potential in steering a club of rich history such as Everton really needs to come to terms with the failings at the back.

I would further suggest that the acquisition of a Manchester United reject forward such as Wellbeck is not the way to move forward.

Why post such a pointless (and rabidly inaccurate) post?

The solution was simple - Lescott ! He was available on a free and would have provided excellent cover and competition for places till Stones could step up. This is where I think Bobby actually fucked up. Now he'll have to scramble and take a punt on an unknown quantity tomorrow (I'm hoping for Micah Richards). Otherwise this season might see us change shape and / or use surprise candidates like Besic, Hibbert or Barry at center back (god help us).

Do I think he looks uncomfortable with what Martinez's asks of his defenders then the answer again is yes and that is not just based on one game. Before you start berating me about commenting about individuals, I suggest you look at the title of thread yourself, it is called Jagielka and Distin - the dilemma therefore one would assume it is reasonable to comment about them, what do you think Professor Logic?

You can't suggest the manager 'fucked up' unless you know for sure what he chose to pass up, what things weren't in his hands or have access to that parallel reality where Lescott rejoined us.

It was quite easy to set any Everton team out, and win one, lose one, draw one on a regular basis. Some good football, some bad, and mostly serve up football by numbers; 4-5-1, winning or losing by the odd goal. Allardyce could do it at Everton, Hughes, Pulis and a few others could easily manage a top-half finish.

If Martinez does fail with his attacking approach, then fair enough, we can always get a 'safe' manager in, and probably guarantee 7th, 8th or 9th.

We haven't seen any silverware at Goodison for almost 20 years now, we won't see any for another 20 if want to just exist as we have been.

As a club, we have two hopes of progress, spending our way to success, or to change our style completely. Lone strikers and five across the middle is great for keeping things competitive, but we need need something else, something to challenge every big club out there.

I want to see us go for it, because if it does work, we will reach the heights, and we will have success. Phone Tony Pulis if you want a safe option. We won't get a hiding like we had yesterday, but we'll certainly win fuck all for another generation.

Distin has been a wonderful acquisition but may just be showing his age, making too many errors and losing just a bit of his all-important pace. However, for me the bigger problem is Jagielka. I will admit that I have never thought he was good enough to be an international, but what he had in abundance was commitment, pace and a desire to stop goals. 3 years ago he would put his head where other would not put their boots, he would make tackles that were outstanding and showed a drive that was often unmatched. However, had Terry still been available to England, or had Ferdinand not deteriorated so quickly, would he have got any caps at all? Commitment at international level surely is not enough.

Yesterday was a classic case in point. What we saw was the ‘new’ Jagielka, the centre half who thinks he can play football when in fact it was drive and commitment that got him recognised not skill and artistry. Stepping up after 30 seconds against Costa, caught in possession, and out of position too often. The 4th goal looked like he was kneeling down to be knighted; 3 years ago he would have been throwing himself at that ball – not doing a courtesy. The last one - put on his arse with a simple check back!!

Suddenly Jagielka thinks he can be a footballing centre-half like Ferdinand (Stones). Now, instead of looking to defend first and foremost, he is looking to position himself to receive and play the ball. Gone is his desire to stop goals; instead, he wants to ‘play’ football.

Contrast that with Terry: again, not the most gifted of players but he knows that and does not pretend to be something else. He wants to defend and was always looking to the defensive side of his game. He might have been undone by us a few times but his first priority was always defending. If he could play some passes they were always short to midfield before he got back into his defensive position, or he cleared his lines and again set up to defend.

So Martinez now has a dilemma, he wants us to play football (as we all do), but has he got the balance right? We all know the reservations before he came about the suspect Wigan defence but a strong attacking drive. Has it started here? Can you make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? Can he make Jagielka and Distin footballing centre halves without losing the part of them that made them what they were – good defenders.

Equally, does he have the right backup? Alcaraz and Stones? Definitely one for the future in Stones... but the present? And is it a gamble worth taking? For me, at least one of the back four has to be an uncompromising defender – Chelsea have two in Ivanovich and Terry; Liverpool have Skirtel; Man City have Kompany; Arsenal have none and struggle; same with Spurs, and suddenly it looks like we have none either.

I want us to play from the back but I also want defenders who can defend. Jagielka was and is a defender – he is not a gifted footballer, Distin is the same. For me, one or both have to go, the other has to revert to being an uncompromising defender or we will see many more goals being shipped in this season. Please get it right now, Roberto.

You miss the point.

Its not a case of replacing those 5 players. To be replaced they need to be there in the first place. Which on the season's showings so far they clearly are not.

I think Jags needs pulling out for a few games a la Pellegrini and Joe Hart last year. Bring in Stones and lets see what happens. I think Distin is finished long term, but we may have to muddle on along. To be honest I am not sure what the alternative is. I have heard reports from Belgian Journalists that the lad Toby from Atletico (not going to attempt a spelling of his surname) is overrated. I can't for the life of me see a reason for suggesting Micah Richards, who hasn't played in some fans lifetime probably, is the answer at all.

The key problem is a team one. We were too gung ho yesterday. McCarthy and Barry look off the pace (don't know why as they played all of pre season) and are not offering defensive support. Fitness is shocking. McGeady, for his good contribution is another.

If you watch the team going forward it is clear that players know each others roles. The runs and positions they take up are well crafted. This is mirrored by the defensive movement what is more every man for himself. No structure. I am sure it is not being practiced.

The OP gives us a point of view and we debate / discuss it. Yes, you can post what you like but I can then query it (and vice versa). That is the nature of a forum. The OP is about Jagielka and Distin but only in the context of what Paul Ferry terms 'a seamless sequence of poor defending and poor decision-making by the gaffer. This is a longer-term issue than three games and it has roots in last season and arguably the one before...' Paul Ferry considers the Jagielka / Distin partnership to be the 'nub of the matter' but that is his opinion not a proven fact (though he seems to think his dubious 'textbook' examples prove that our current central defensive pairing is worse than any other you could imagine).

I do think there is currently a huge over-reaction to two patchy games and one horrible score-line (goals against anyway) and collective failures are unfairly being lumped onto one or two individuals due to weaknesses that haven't actually really mattered in these games.

I also disagree with focussing too much on individuals; you defend as a team. That there are problems is self evident, and although jags and distin have never been the most solid of combinations, that has been an ongoing problem for some time.

Yesterday was quite a harsh lesson for rm, but one I hope he learnt. I think the players went out there and put in effort, but he now knows that he'll have to do things a little differently as the set up wasn't quite right. We're asking Barry and McCarthy to put in too much work, and (although I missed the first 20 minutes) it seems the intensity wasn't right at the start.

It's been a terrible, albeit strangely familiar, start to the season. That being said, I'd be surprised if rm sold off jags and distin and bought in nastasic etc... If the right player becomes available then of course he'll buy, but he's had them playing well before, and he'll have them playing well again. I hate it when we start like this as it means that we probably won't win the league (still holding out hope:), but let's be realistic, dropping them both would be a disaster, and if the rest of the team play the same would also wreck the career of our best cb prospect since ratcliffe.

You cannot possibly suggest that he has now become so much of a show-pony that he has forgotten (or is not willing to sully himself with) the basics of defending, or that his head is so full of instructions for what he has to do when the ball is passed to him that his ability to judge when an opposition player is ready to release a pass is severely compromised.

He is under scrutiny because of his errors in the game yesterday (and because people are blaming him for a host of previous goals that may or may not be merited) but the actual reality is that only one of his cock-ups yesterday led directly to a goal. Other defensive errors by other players cannot automatically be laid at his door just because he has a 'mare.

No, sorry, you are still not making any sort of constructive comment that I can make out.

Furthermore, he paid 29 million to get lukaku back as a known quantity into the team. He smooth talked Samuel Eto’o into a team that doesn’t give Sam access to champions league. I’m suggesting that maybe, just maybe if he really really wanted, Roberto could have acquired the services of Joleon Lescott on a free transfer into a club where he is a known quantity and to play in tournaments that WBA wont. Instead, Roberto will now try to bring in someone tomorrow - Ryan Shawcross seems to be the latest rumour.

The manager obviously didn't expect his senior centre-backs to be creaking so early in the campaign and will view Stones and Alcaraz as his next options. If you add Hibbert, Browning and potentially Besic to the mix we are not exactly down to the bare bones just yet. I think Duffy being let go was a move to allow a better player to be brought in. If another decent defender isn't on the roster by 11 pm tomorrow then I will agree with you that he may have taken the subject of adequate defensive cover as frivolously as you are implying.

Three cheers for the best Club on the Planet!!

Bottom line is I'm not a Roberto hater, quite the opposite, I love the guy. But that doesn't mean that he is infallible. I'm merely suggesting that the current situation is a bit more than mere knee jerk to a once-off shock loss. Even Roberto admitted this when he suggested in the press conference that, he felt every time the ball reached our 16 yard box, he felt that it would find the back of the net. He said further that this has happened in the earlier games too. This coming from Mr. superpositive himself is a very powerful indication that its not just the fans who are shitting themselves at the moment about the back line situation.

It took us weeks to recover from that Liverpool mauling last year. We lost 2/4 in the following game and lost 4-1 to Arsenal in the FA cup following that. At least at that time, our better defenders were out injured and could return to inject confidence in the back.

Where do we go from here ? What do we do next week ? I am praying now for tomorrow, because I fear that even if Jagielka rebounds mentally this season, it wont be for at least a month or two; enough time to derail the whole campaign.

Nowhere near enough information, that I am aware of, to make statements like that.

I did not say that I knew any details, just questioned how you could discount alternative scenarios without providing evidence to back-up your comments.

However, I have not

It's very kind of you to point out to me that I'm ignoring the "fact" that the manager is trying to "make us more competitive" and I think it's only fair that I point out some of the things you are ignoring.

Fact: We are not getting done because we are asking our players to become "more offensive"; we have had plenty of payers defending when we have conceded this season. We are being done by the fact that we lack any sort of cohesion right across our back four.

When Chelsea stepped up, they stepped up as one; our defenders came out like a fucking Mexican wave.

Coleman, Jagielka, Distin and Baines look as if they have never played together before. Every time we try to step up, one of them will stay where he is and play everyone onside.

And what is our Martinez's policy when we defend free kicks and corners? I'm fucked if I know... we don't do zonal, we don't man-mark, and we don't leave anybody free to simply attack the ball... we don't do shit. Players need to know what is expected of them.

It's not enough to just say, "They are experienced defenders and they should get on with it" – they have to be singing from the same hymn sheet. By blaming individual players for the goals, we are conceding that the Martinez devotees are simply blinding themselves to the fact that for any defensive unit there has to be a cohesion .. and THAT my friend can only come with doing the necessary work at Finch Farm.

I despair when I hear people say we concede more because we are far more attacking-minded, it's utter utter bollocks. Yes, we are thankfully keeping the ball much better these days, but it's not as if we throw caution to the wind. When was the last time we got caught short of numbers at the back? We've got two midfield players who rarely venture over the half-way line, ffs.

The most destructive thing about the goals we are conceding at the moment is that the opposition aren't even having to work for them... and if you think that's because "the manager is trying to make us more competitive", then your understanding of what is happening isn't as comprehensive as you appear to think it is.

The notion that Martinez would need to copy Moyes's tactics in order to stop conceding these spirit-sapping goals is, frankly ridiculous. We are not exactly employing Holloway tactics here. If he doesn't know how to get our defenders playing as a unit, then he needs to employ somebody who does – and he needs to do it now.

"A nine goal thriller"? ... was you thrilled?

Whist the Chelsea game was a shambles, I think in the grander scheme of things - in a tactical sense at least - failing to hang on to two two-goal leads is possibly more disturbing. I love this attacking football, but if you are two up, consolidation (via appropriate substitutions) should trump other intentions.

Don't give me the "I can see it with my own eyes!" because you apparently can't see that we don't really play with a flat back four anymore. Sure, there are times when all four defenders funnel back, but generally it is the two central defenders who are left to operate an offside trap with the full-backs generally looking to be a little advanced of the middle two when the ball is on the opposite side. The two defensive midfielders try to plug gaps as and when they occur.

Okay it doesn't always work; one of them is too slow to get out again when the ball is initially cleared, or even on occasion too quick. These things happen to most defences and ours is obviously more prone than many at the moment. What evidence do you have beyond the circumstantial that this is due to the way they are being coached?

Do you honestly think the players aren't given some sort of marking system for set pieces? Why on earth would seasoned professionals happily go along with that? If something they are told to do in training wasn't working don't you think they would feed that back to the coaches?

When things go wrong you can't simply assume you know what the root cause is and you certainly can't claim you know what they are being coached to do.

We don't really have the wingers or the attacking midfielders to play like Chelsea and the RS can at the moment. Instead we have to find a way to utilise our two full-backs in very advanced positions as much as possible. That puts some extra defensive duties on the two central defensive midfielders and the two central defenders. Against most teams we play you would expect them to handle it (because they have demonstrated that they can) so it makes perfect sense to use that system in an attempt to win games we may previously have only drawn. Against the best teams it is riskier but there are no guarantees if we go defensive against them either so it is perhaps not much of a risk to stick with the attacking orientated system. With a bit of luck you get some good victories.

If you put some poor form / decisions into the mix with attackers who may exploit mistakes then you will concede some avoidable goals; if you are adding exceptional attackers who will exploit any mistakes then you will concede much more.

You have no evidence that what we witness on the pitch is anything more than players getting it wrong at crucial times and yet you post comments that accuse the manager / coaches of not even having the most basic concept of defending.

Nobody (except you) mentioned a "flat" back four. That I 'm afraid was you latest attempt to try to manufacture a point you could argue against, because you are, once again, unable to contest the point which was made.

You Say: "and don't give me the "I can see it with my own eyes" WTF? What do you want me to do, deny it?

It's not just the evidence of my eyes. There are 40,000 match goers and who knows how many internet fans watching Everton and you would be hard pressed to find a single one (besides yourself of course) who would describe our defending at the moment as anything north of dogshit.

If you haven't seen Coleman and Baines try and fail to play people offside, then you haven't been watching our games.

You ask if I think our players aren't given some sort of marking system for set pieces. Well my answer is No, I don't. I don't actually think Martinez gives them any instructions at all about defending these deadball situations. If I'm wrong and they ARE following his instructions, he needs his arse kicking because every Evertonian holds his breath every time we concede one. Martinez may not see it but the rest of us can.

You claim I have no "evidence" that it's the manager who is to blame for our poor defending, not the players. Well, first of all, I didn't think I needed "evidence" to give an opinion – you never seem to bother... but If I was representing the prosecution, I would simply point to everything we know about Martinez before he inherited this defence... then I would point to everything we know about these defenders before Martinez got here, and I would simply rest my case.

You may cling desperately to your argument that the evidence is merely circumstantial, but you will have trouble convincing any right-thinking jury that it is anything other than overwhelming.

If Martinez is not giving them instructions on how we should defend free kicks, then he should be; and if he is, then he's making a really crap job of it.

If you watch enough games you will see all defenders trying in vain to play an attacker offside occasionally. It often happens when they realise they aren't in a position where they are going to be able to get in a challenge, which is again a lapse in concentration and not a coaching issue. Where is your evidence that any of our players are significantly more susceptible to these lapses than any from other teams? If you haven't got the figures to prove it why do you rail against others when they disagree with you.

If you were arguing that we are letting a lot of opposition players run in behind without someone properly tracking them then I would agree with you, but that is not the same as deliberately trying to play the player offside and failing or not. That is about communication on the pitch, and surely you are not suggesting the manager has given them instructions to be mute and assume someone else will see the danger.

The point about the flat back four is that is what teams play when they are operating an offside trap as their primary option. Because we are not playing that system the opportunity to catch a player offside is going to be more ad hoc. Either way, you rely on the players getting their timing right and being aware of where their teammates are. It isn't rocket science but as with any other footballing ability, some players will always be better at it than others.

I think it is extreme to suggest that the manager is not even bothering to coach basic defensive duties as that would amount to a dereliction of duty. It is ridiculous to think that the players would wear it either. Because of that I think you need to expect to be challenged on what insights you think you have that provide unequivocal support for your opinion.

I was waiting for you to puff about your matching going exploits as if it gives you a better insight than watching the whole of the game with a variety of camera angles, slow motion replays and the benefits of a rewind button.

I see players making mistakes they shouldn't and you are trying to blame the manager for lapses he cannot directly influence.

What are you talking about this time Si ? Where do I mention where I watched these games.

How can you hope to put foward a credible argument when you keep arguing against points that havent been made ?

You simply don't get it. Martinezis the manager.
If the defenders are acting to his instructions, it's his
fault.

If they are openly disobeying him, its still his fault for allowing it to happen

If they are trying to act upon his instructions, but failing then, its his fault for costing us points for perservering with them

And if he is only playing them because he has nobody else
to take their place, guess what? its still his fault. He has had a year and 54 million quid to sign defenders, but he hasnt bothered.

Get it? he is the manager and the buck stops with him.

If he cant address our defensive shortcomings, its His fault Thats how this footy lark works

You reckon I would be hard pressed to find people who agree with me. We all know (can see) things are going wrong at the moment and the defending is 'dog-shit' at times. Where we differ is in how we distribute the blame for these failings because I do not view them as systematic.

You seem to think that the root cause for the problems is that the manager is not even bothering to give his players basic instruction or that he is asking to do things they are incapable of, but my view of the vast majority of the goals we are conceding this season is that they are attributable to players failing to do basic things right, like trying to play offside when the odds are against you, not sticking with runners, and not reacting quick enough to close down shots and crosses.

These are things that are either innate in good defenders or learnt by experience. No coach / manager should have to tell his senior and seasoned professional footballers that trying to step up and catch an attacker offside when his team-mate is already set to play a pass is a bad gamble; that it is their responsibility to stick with a man in a threatening position until the ball has been properly cleared or you have actively passed him on to someone else who is fully aware of the threat; that it is a cardinal sin for a player in possession of the ball to get past you completely unhindered when you are defending the box.

These are the players responsibilities on the pitch and the manager just cannot control what amount to a sequence of individual errors. If they didn't know how to do these things properly then we would never have got the positive results we did last season. Unfortunately players can lose confidence / form irrespective of what happens during training. If it persists then they should be dropped but if they are performing well in training then it is impossible to pre-empt.

You can criticise the manager for not having got the players fitter before the season started, you can have a go if he persists with players who are not delivering, you can rage if the set-up of his team / use of substitutes hands the initiative to the opposition, but to my mind it is another thing entirely to jump to the conclusion that he is doing something to them that drains them of their basic footballing abilities.

Jagielka fails to get off the floor to head clear - is it the managers fault? Same player comes crashing out to play offside and gets it wrong. Same player, same question?

It is a mess but that its down to individual errors that the manager, I agree, needs to resolve. To imply that Martinez doesn't even discuss defending, especially set pieces, is just pure conjecture.

I’m still baffled though that we’ve gone from the 3rd best defence last season to the balls ups we see at the moment. How in the space of 3 months has that happened? Lets’s not blame the World Cup – Distin didn’t play in Brasil,and England were so shite, Jags might as well have not played either!! I’m confident RM will get it sorted.

On a more positive note, or should I say a optimistic note, I think weÂ’ve got a strong midfield, and a strike force in Lukaku & EtoÂ’o that will hurt defences. We just need to gel more and stop leaking goals.

Good news that Gibson completed 70 mins for the ROI. Looking forward to Oveido coming back later this month. (Hopefully!)