Who would you call?

For all the flack Moyes gets on here, IÂ’m not a revisionist. He did a good job for us, leaving the club and squad in a far healthier state than when he arrived. He left Roberto a rich inheritance. We were never seriously threatened with relegation under Moyes and he had us looking up rather than down.

I believe Everton remains strong in his affections, but given his subsequent conduct and declarations about Everton early on in his tenure at Manure, a recall to the club...? We could do worse, but ...

NAH! That bridge is well and truly burnt.

Also, his ego is such that he would see it as some sort of vindication if he came back, and I would fully expect we would see the back of some players sharpish, but not the ones some of the fans might want.

Everton was perfect for Moyes, because there was little to no pressure or expectation, other than keep them in the PL. This persisted for most of his tenure, hence the defeatist talk that drove so many against him. To my mind, whilst he was on a hiding to nothing at Man U, he was always going to struggle to achieve anything of note there. HeÂ’s a good manager to stabalise a club, IÂ’ll be interested to see how he does at RS (!) I will be surprised if he ever gets a crack again at an established CL club, certainly in this country.

Three opposition set pieces is generally three goals against for us.

All sounds very lazy and criminally negligent to me. Will get well tested by Big Sam tonight...

Not to practise set pieces and a lack of fitness is awful for any professional football club. So what if we may face 3 corners in a game, still practice them.

RM and GJ downfall is that they think they are in Spain and cannot adapt there style to the English game. Look at Swansea and how they have progressed in terms of there football.

I personally think he has lost the dressing room. When a player says we are behind the manager then heÂ’s doomed. ItÂ’s like the dreaded vote of confidence from the Chairman.

If he was to go in the next 3 games, then I would happily have Frank De Boer, coaches Bergkamp, Ferguson, Rene Meulesteen.

One thing IÂ’ve said all season is that our fitness levels have been a problem; as well as that IÂ’ve believed for a while now that our style of "tippy tappy" pass the ball a thousand times a game etc, is one of the root causes of so many player injuries. ItÂ’s hospital football at best sometimes.

I have to thank Martinez for one thing though; since his arrival IÂ’ve studied all kinds of football tactics in all types of levels and leagues. I watched Aberdeen at the weekend run wild at Motherwell and was so impressed with how every player seemed to be able to pass and hold / control every ball. They can score, win and keep clean sheets and have ended up at the top of their league. It was also refreshing to see OFM turn over Barca with an almost identical old Everton style performance, gritty and busy.

IÂ’m not saying I want Moyes back but I do want back a team that is fit, can pass a ball and go through the 90 without conceding so many goals.

Then it was NO FUCKIN WAY.

But then I thought, if the options were a Moyes-esque clone, then why would you bother, then I thought NO FUCKIN WAY.

Been there, done that, got the 7th-ish trophy. What we need is the Â’Goldilocks optionÂ’ ... not too Martinez (hot), not too Moyes (cold)... but just right.

Where and Who is our Ghost (of Moyes & Martinez) Buster. That is the Question.

(Moyes, Paul... really, REALLY?...nah.)

Those extracts from OssieÂ’s book says everything you need to know about RMÂ’s lack of organisation. We are constantly told that football is a business so why would a multi-million pound company employ a man who got his last club relegated.

I noticed even MotD highlighted WiganÂ’s first 20 games and goals conceded in the year they got relegated and our first 20 games this season.

Wigan played 20 conceded 35
Everton played 20 conceded 33.

I think Derek Thomas is right. What we need is someone in the middle. someone able to combine the organisation and intensity from Moyes with the positivity and attacking emphasis from Martinez. As I wrote that it felt a little hollow as we have hardly shone as an attacking force in the last year or so but still the point remains that think a balance should be achievable. Ronald Koeman and to a degree big Sam Allardyce have shown the way this season, building organised teams with solid defences that are more than able to break quickly and move the ball around till its in the back of the oppositionÂ’s net. To be fair, WE were that team last season but it look increasingly like that organised defense may have been the residual Moyes affect.

Can Martinez be that man to find a balance? It looks more and more unprobable as he refuses to budge from his Â’possession at the cost of organisationÂ’ stance. He will almost certainly be given more time to get it right as Kenwright has only sacked one manager in the last 15 years, though his hand may be forced if we fall any lower down the league which seems horribly possible at the moment.

My main reason for doing so - we have spent 㿈m on a striker and weÂ’re not playing to his strengths and weÂ’re wasting him.

Who would I turn to? Christ knows. WhoÂ’s out there? I honestly think Pulis might have been an option.

If Martinez had alienated this bunch, and he canÂ’t turn this around, I would be tempted to give Laudrup or McClaren a call.

All this crap about relegation is disturbing my sleep, and I cannot even forget about it in work, I am surrounded by Man Utd and RS fans, laughing their faces off at us.

Come on, Blue Bill, you know what you need to do.

Paul Clement at Real Madrid.

All the stats available show that sustained success is determined by the resources available and EvertonÂ’s income is decidedly seventish. Why then should we have expected him to deliver finishes above that mark? But we all did.

Moyes is a pragmatist who did well here but was set up to fail at OT. And did so. I wish him well in Spain but have no desire to see him back here because, stupidly, he burned his boats.

I think Martinez was welcomed here because he was so different. A football romanticist bordering on fantasist. Perhaps more suited to management in his own country than here. But, for certain, never the man to manage Everton.

Throughout the game, history will show that Boards will usually appoint managers whose approach is diametrically opposed to their predecessor. ThatÂ’s why I thought Pulis would get the call. But almost certainly the next man will be no chancer.

WHEN is really the question.

Unfortunately, he and the players are not practising it this season. We go ahead and stop playing. We go behind and give up!!

This guy, in my opinion, is a complete arsehole if he thinks any team can go out and think they can win anything with that attitude. He is totally sold on winning the stats and then making excuses if the result doesnÂ’t reflect it.

I cannot believe any other team in the world do not work on set pieces! My bloody grandsonÂ’s team works on them and theyÂ’re Under-11s!!! I think I would call any psychiatric unit that would take him

I think a lot of us would take 7th at present.

Personally, I find it hard to believe but, correct or not, our team’s current approach to set pieces – both in their execution and defence – looks decidedly slipshod and unprofessional.

Look, Moyes is a good manager who will guarantee organisation, hard work, and some decent football once certain targets are met. First and foremost he is a pragmatist, no better than Allardyce, Pardew, or any other journeyman Premier League manager you care to mention.

We will probably never find someone to take us to Â’the next level.Â’ That doesnÂ’t mean we should settle for 7th, just so Phil can collect at the bookies every season!

WOW!!! Find out for yourself!! FFS!!

"We questioned why we werenÂ’t working on set-pieces and Graeme Jones, the assistant manager, said: "How many do you have to defend in a game? Three? So why would we spend two hours standing around to defend three set-pieces when we could work on moving the ball."

And WOW again!!! LetÂ’s not practice defending set pieces!

These two bits are news to me – more pieces in the jigsaw!

The fact is that taking a non-monied club to the Â’next levelÂ’, by which I assume you mean Champions League, is a Herculean task that basically very few if any managers have achieved in the PL. In fact EvertonÂ’s 4th place finish is the only real gatecrashing I can think of if you include Spurs as a monied club which I think they merit.

That doesnÂ’t mean we should not strive for 4th or higher but perhaps we should acknoweldge that someone who keeps us knocking at the door is probably doing a pretty good job. Right now it does not look like Martinez is even capable of that.

I have begun to think that tonight may be a lot more important for RM than it appeared to be, given that most of us are concentrating on the PL. If we were to lose badly then I just wonder if that would be the point of no return. The nature of the performance, more than the result, may be significant for the decision makers (BK); if we are again tired, sloppy and uninterested then the omens for Saturday against Man City and against WBA and Palace later in the month can only be read one way canÂ’t they?

As discussed last night on another thread, the transfer window makes BKÂ’s timings very tight if any change is going to happen and he would need to give himself maximum time to make an appointment and let the new man have input on the squad. That is to assume that BK is considering the dangers to EFC in the way that he ought to be.

Never Moyes again for me. Is Hoddle a possibility? Not an Everton figure on the face of it and his history is difficult but he has considerable strengths as well. Probably wouldnÂ’t fit in truth. Otherwise, Benitez would be my choice but canÂ’t see him coming to us.

Anyway, lÂ’ll wait and see what happens tonight before I get too carried away.

Those stats are influenced by the fact that most teams DO work on defending corners/free kicks thus lowering the number of goals scored. The stats for teams that DONÂ’T work on defending corners will be higher in terms of goals conceded.

It would be interesting to have the stats for the rate of Everton goals conceded from corners/free kicks...

In todayÂ’s Echo, Martinez is quoted as "Looking for a safe pair of hands until Howard returns". IÂ’ve so far wanted to give the manager time but statements like that are crass. How much confidence is that going to install in Robies?

The answer is that the players are unhappy at the way blame has been unfairly laid at Distin while Alcaraz can do no wrong. Â’Nuff said.

IÂ’d call Alan Irvine for the rest of the season and get Benitez in the summer, providing we are still in the EPL. I canÂ’t see Martinez turning this around

Koeman would by my choice but thatÂ’s just lazy as IÂ’ve seen him work. There must be similar coaches working in Europe, that would be more ambitious than Moyes but lacking the misplaced positivity of Martinez and his bizarre approach. Moyes continually placed above Pulis, Hughes and all the other big grocks so I think weÂ’d be wrong to go down that road again.

However, above all this, the most worrying aspect is the Kenwright will be way behind the curve in planning any exit strategy for Martinez. I recently commented around the finance required on moving a manager on and the careful planning involved in making your move when you have a replacement in hand with funds for that person to use – all within what could be a three week window.

I personally would like Benitez... but just canÂ’t see Kenwright dedicating 1 minuteÂ’s thought (as yet) to building a way out of this now seemingly god-awful mess.

Although, even if it is just three a game, it only takes one to score... IÂ’m sure we all remember John TerryÂ’s last-minute winner at Stamford Bridge last year... or SturridgeÂ’s derby equaliser?

A Defeat tonight is inconceivable; lose the next two and he has to go.

No wonder we are losing to well drilled lower-league opposition if set-pieces arenÂ’t taken seriously.

IÂ’m all for quality in attack, but what do you do when the ball turns over?

Anyway, IÂ’m looking forward to the game tonight, it should begin to clear things up one way or another.

A winger by trade, he was first Assistant Manager to Moyes and on his return Manager of the Academy.

Moyes is recognised as a leading authority on defence strategy – even writing booklets for the Scottish Football Association on the subject – and naturally took responsibility for that aspect of training himself.

Perhaps he could spare Bobby the odd Tuesday morning!

ItÂ’s not as if this situation has suddenly reared itÂ’s ugly head. It started to manifest the back end of last season; if the training regime is as piss poor as rumoured, then that will be about the time fitness levels started to drop.

The result does not really concern me tonight; itÂ’s the cup and anything can happen. ItÂ’s the quality of the display we have to look for: lack of creativity and tactical awareness from the manager will be scrutinised to death on here and in the media.

GHOSTBUSTERS!!!

Where was that quoted then? In the Echo piece I read yesterday, Martinez stated that he would not be looking for a short-term solution between the sticks: "I donÂ’t think short-term would be a good solution for us right now."

Then, the piece today, which rules out Al Habsi as an option, further reiterates the managerÂ’s preference for a long-term option:

"Martinez will instead target a "long-term" recruit but insists that, if the right goalkeeper is not available in the January transfer window, then he will not make a signing.

The Catalan sees little point in signing a keeper just to provide cover until Howard is fit again, and will be happy to keep faith with Robles – as well as Academy understudies Russell Griffiths and Jindrich Stanek - until the American is back."

"...blame has been unfairly laid at Distin while Alcaraz can do no wrong."

Distin was dropped following a string of error-strewn performances. How is that Â’unfairÂ’? His performance this season have been appalling for the most part.

Also, Alcaraz as the golden boy who gets a big hair ruffle in contrast to SylvainÂ’s rollicking is just pure speculation on your part. Firstly, heÂ’s surely not been on the pitch enough times for players to start pouting and pointing the finger over preferential treatment. Secondly (despite being so slow you half-expect the Halloween theme tune to start blaring out every time he moves), when Alcaraz has played, his horror show moments have been nowhere near as numerous or as fatal as the self-inflicted Â’slice and diceÂ’ Distin has seemingly been specialising in this season.

I think the frustration with Moyes was well founded. He was great to a point. Could someone else move past that point?

I didnÂ’t want Martinez but he showed us last year what a manager who was prepared to have a go could do. He bettered MoyesÂ’ points total and took the game to the teams above us.

Unfortunately he seems to have failings, just as Moyes did. We gave Moyes the time to learn and to build his team. He did evolve his style over the course of his tenure.

Does Roberto get the same time to work on his faults? Sadly his failings seem to be the basics... ItÂ’s like he skipped football management 101 and went straight to advanced theory. IÂ’m not sure we can afford that.

Moyes back? Not for me. But we do need to get back to basics again... Hopefully with someone who can then progress beyond the Moyes level.

Furthermore, the ridiculous Â’you only have three to defend against throughout a gameÂ’ rebuttal is utter bollocks. Is he not counting corners as set-pieces or something?

So far his attempts at those positions have brought in Alcaraz and Robles. They might be the two worst IÂ’ve seen at Goodison in those positions.

Has he bought a good keeper or centre back in his career?

So whatÂ’s the point of him?

ThatÂ’s the market we are in, so to say the manager should be signing superstars for that sort of money is plainly wrong. LetÂ’s not hang him altogether just yet.

That being said would I want him back? Probably not. We need someone extraordinary to smash the barrier. Moyes is just very good, but perhaps not good enough.

Will he come back? I think yes. I think him and Kenwright both see it as a job unfinished. If things go south in Spain a backhand deal could be struck seeing a Moyes interim like Neville or Weir take the team and then Moyes return.

Would it be a bad thing? A more rounded Moyes with a renewed focus and energy with a point to prove. Rather than Anichebe Neville Distin and Odman heÂ’d have Stones Barkley and the top striker heÂ’s always wanted. We could do a lot worse. We may currently be doing a lot worse....

Regarding the headline --Who Will You Call.--- I think the thing is Who Will Come--- that we believe can put us back on track is a better headline.

I do not think that BK is going to fire Martinez and I may be wrong, but; if it is in his mind ,giving him 2-3 more games before he decides to do it is stupid as he is either good enough now or he is not. Everton are in the result business and we have to have someone who will get the positive results now not in a months time.

No one likes to see a person fired and in MartinezÂ’s defence his philosophy and style is great to watch when working but the problem he seems to have, is that when it is not working he seems at a loss with what to do.

Last season when his style was working may have given him a false hope that he had the squad to continue with his style of play but for reasons that we mostly speculate on it is not working.Changing the style of play in players takes a number of seasons and to perfect it you have to intergrate it with other styles until all your players are on the same page.

Matinez most probableÂ’y is aware of the criticism that he is recieving and realise that to have a long term future at Everton he will sometimes have to alter his stratagy to get results. The premier league is a cut throat business and their is no sympathy for failures no matter how nice a person you are. Supporters regardless of the result need to see 100% effort from their players especially if you are privileged to wear the royal blue of Everton. .

I am dreading that fixture more than usual this time around. I think Martinez will still be here, as Kenwright will drag his feet. If results are still poor and they wipe the floor with us, that will the trigger.

In fact IÂ’ve just convinced myself right now that it will be the derby performance and result that compel Kenwright to get rid. 0-3 to them and picture of him looking stern on the big screen followed later that evening by a yellow bar of Â’breaking newsÂ’ on SSN.

Set pieces are a case in point. We scored more goals from set pieces (12) last season than we did in MoyesÂ’ last (10). WeÂ’ve scored 9 from set pieces already this season. That actually puts us well into the top half of goals from set pieces in the Premier League. IÂ’m not sure that means our set pieces are good (and weÂ’re certainly conceding more from set pieces this season, so it basically cancels out +/-), but it certainly doesnÂ’t demonstrate that thereÂ’s some huge RM caused problem.

Complete negligence and incompetence from Martinez and his band of idiotic coaches/yes men. 3 set pieces a game is very often the difference between winning and defeat.

Martinez is a cancer and the sooner we get rid of him and his entire outfit the better. I was no fan of Moyes but, the more I learn about the inner workings of MartinezÂ’s reign, the more I am disgusted.

Van Gaal was considering Spurs before Man U. Apart from money what do they have that we donÂ’t? We should be courting some of the top managers abroad because weÂ’ve got a lot to offer. We have some of the best young players in Europe and a great draw in the FA cup and Europa League. Any top manager would look at that and see 2 trophy opportunities. I genuinely think the lure of the premier league means there would be top managers who would be desperate for a big job. Instead weÂ’ll narrow the search to northwest based championship managers and cringily interview them. Do other top clubs interview? They pick someone, target them, and get them.

As for the Ossie piece in the Â’why have we become so shitÂ’ jigsaw, I sometimes wish I didnÂ’t know these things. IÂ’m going to be crapping myself even more than normal whenever we get a set piece against us. As for Â’think for yourselfÂ’, well thinking was never a lot of playersÂ’ strong point was it?

I ask because last season I can only recall us scoring once direct from a corner (Lukaku in the derby), and although we scored quite a few from direct free kicks courtesy of Baines, Mirallas and Barkley, I canÂ’t recall us scoring direct from a cross or through ball from a corner/free kick.

The point about set pieces was that, according to Leon, Roberto has said no need to practice defending set pieces - but you say weÂ’ve conceded more this season.

What alarms me about this excellent article is that Osman had to ask the question of RM as to why no sessions on defending set pieces. GJÂ’s answer is an abrogation of duty and shows this is a project for this management team and not a vocation. GarbuttÂ’s recent remarks are making more sense.

RM is the manager every other team wants EFC to keep because they have worked him out and they know where he is taking us and it personally breaks my blue heart.

Robbies meathead assistant justifies this by asking how many times do we defend them in a game ? whats the point of putting the work in ? talk about half arsed.

I cant stomach anymore of this semi commited corner cutting, everytime a player opens his mouth we are given more proof of it

How many times a game? . . . . HOW MANY TIMES A FUCKING GAME??? if we had just done the basics in matches like the home game against the shite or away to Spurs and Chelsea weÂ’d have been playing Champions league football this season.

You really would not belief this went on in proffessional football never mind in the top flight

We donÂ’t work hard enough off the ball. No pressing no effort and organisation. ThatÂ’s the difference between Moyes and Martinez.

At the moment were so half arsed

Jags and Distin are over the hill and Baines and Coleman have never been the best in defence.

Using wingers and actually putting the odd ball in the box earlier would not go a miss either. This will suit Lukaku.

I still think that the next two league games will define the season. I am still not convinced about Martinez and his defensive frailties may still come back to haunt us. His Â’gung hoÂ’ attitude worries me. He should be doing better with this set of players.

COYB.

DonÂ’t continue playing the ball on the ground if there is an opposition player near you. We donÂ’t have players good enough to do this. I know we have a team of seasoned International footballers but really... expecting them to be able to string a few 5/10 yard passes together in our own half? Really?

Or a gopalkeeper with a bit of savvy? No. We need to change tack. We need a plan B.

Hoof it. Long and hard. DoesnÂ’t matter if the ball goes straight to the opposition or Row Z. We still have 11 men behind the ball donÂ’t we? We adopted this strategy for yonks and never went down.

But I thought football was played on the ground, not in the air?

I thought we were entering a new era. I thought the School of Science might be on way back. I thought this manager had a vision where better facilities would produce better youngsters and, long term, a world class academy.

Well fuck him. I would have Moyes, Allardyce, Pulis in a heartbeat. All betrayals start with friendship, donÂ’t they?

What has MartinezÂ’s half arsed approach to corners got to do with Moyes ? TGT fucked of a long time ago and very few people want him back.

Your post 47 reveals just how simplistic your views are. No wonder you defend Martinez so stoutly every time somebody levels a ligitimate criticism at him.

If you really believe defending corners and free kicks are just a case of "Senior players knowing where to stand " you have either only just started watching the game or you want to defend your idol despite the overwhelming facts.

In case it escaped your notice we conceded yet again from a deadball situation last night.it was almost inevitable. Failure to adress corners is not an oversight its a deleriction of duty.

Face facts lad and stop trying to defend the indefensible just because you donÂ’t want to be wrong. Its football. . .we all get a turn of being wrong

Shocking marking at corners, compounded by switching off for short corners. Glaring gaps in midfield, meaning that West Ham won most of the second balls.

But hey, we actually looked interested, we moved the ball with pace at times and the long - overdue inclusion of Oviedo gave us a bit of impetus. And guess what, this meant we had a bit more space and Lukaku could play something like his natural game.

We still looked like a far more ordinary side than the team sheet suggested. There needs to be more than this before I can think of getting genuinely encouraged.

Who would I call? A defence coach, an effective fitness coach and someone in the club hierarchy to bollock Martinez and tell him to do his job properly - like he did last season.

He was an employee of the club, nothing more, nothing less, he had a gravy train to ride for 11 years and won the some total of absolutely fuck all. Every major crunch game at the big four thats 44 times he shit himself before a ball was kicked and that has to have rubbed off on his players with an attitude that stank - "lucky to get out alive". If you are seriously happy with mediocrity and just being another number to hand points to the teams that win things then you should just give up, the game is a competitive sport and you should at least aim to win.

Martinez is frustrating the hell out of me and have posted here and elsewhere at his scary OCD tendency to repeat behaviours despite them not working over and over. I despair of his reluctance to drop players making mistakes week in and week out, I find the statement of no attraction to trying to score from corners completely crass as a goal is a goal and they win games and not fannying about with a million crablike phenomenal passes to nowhere or a ball going from the opposition box back to our keeper without a single opposition player touching it.

In precis I donÂ’t want to see Moyes ever step foot back in Goodison, his long odds football was mind numbing and not what I want to see, I want a team with a spark to carry a fight to whoever they are playing no matter who they are playing, so Martinez season 1 yes but season 2 god no

Call somebody back to stay close to the wide attacker would be a good start!! Luckily nothing came of this incident, but it does appear to show the lack of communication between players and maybe the lack of numbers when defending?

As bad as Moyes hateistas.

Change the manager now and you are increasing the odds of our own destruction.

The way Basel dominated Liverpool home and away shows how well he can get his team to play. He is a major upgrade on Martinez and would be very realistic target for the club.

Villareal 1 - Real Sociedad 0