Will the Misery Ever End?

Young boys finished second in their Europa League Group as well, one point behind Napoli. A run where they beat Slovan Bratislava 5-0 and 3-1, 2-0 against Napoli at home and 2-0 at home to Sparta Praha.
At their home, our result is quite a feat.

Apart from that, Yeah we suck.

Because we fail to put home so many chances, every frailty is diagnosed and poured over and whilst on yesterday's form, Howard handicaps us from the off, the real failure was up front.

Never one to be slow to criticise Martinez, I somehow feel sorry for him that the guy he has backed with the family jewels so flatters to deceive. In a way, I think our manager is in awe of his team - particularly those who have played for long at a level to which he never aspired. His exaggerated praise almost tells us as much, although it certainly fails to inspire them !

Perhaps others now agree that he was never right for the job in the first place and that a less philosophical man could get more out of some talented players. Especially Lukaku.

That is the conclusion I have come to despite playing the most inept football I can remember by an Everton side since watching the team from the late 50s. From what I have read Roberto has forged such a strong relationship with BK he is virtually fireproof.

So it will be a real roller coaster till the end of the season; after witnessing yesterdays game the main problem is the lack of confidence and cohesion that has become the teams hallmark in the managers second season and I think it can only get worse, the individual mistakes by some players is alarming. In my experience all these factors are a direct result of the managers influence on the team and clearly Martinez is out of his depth.

Make no mistake he will start the new season as manager so we have to suffer this for a long time before he leaves and god knows who BK will pick as the new manager its all very sad.

Now there's just no consistency. A team like Leicester can come to Goodison and quite easily take three points. Yet we could quite easily go to Napoli and win away. Such is the Martinez model. We may yet win a trophy with him, but we will never win anything consistently without good home form. Van Gaal has United in the top 4 on the back of nothing more than decent home form and drawing away. That could easily have been us in previous seasons. There's no control, rhythm or style to our football. From one game to the next you don't know what you are going to see. whereas in the past you could guarantee combination play between Baines and Pienaar, Osman and Arteta, even a style of play involving Fellaini, now there's no combinations. Every team is Barry, Howard and 9 others and they could be any 9. We sailed through the Europa tie, had a must win against Leicester at home and you find Mirallas, our most potent attacking weapon on the bench. I just don't understand it. For me, after close to 2 seasons and 4 full transfer windows a manager should have some idea about his best 11 and a recognisable style of play. We have neither. Its the law of averages management. If we keep the ball enough we might win we might not. Its the individual quality of our players that have stopped us being relegated. A good back two and a 15 goal a season striker mean you're just about not going down. The midfield and wide positions are a total mess though, the fullbacks have no idea what they are doing anymore and look completely shot of confidence and the keeper is absolutely woeful. If Lukaku is not on fire, we normally lose, that is the reality. With Robles in goal we were good for a clean sheet. With Howard though we are 1 down before the game has started. I really thought we'd just hit a bump in the road but the home performances against the like of West Brom, Hull and Leicester have been atrocious. The players are not good enough to self motivate, and Martinez isn't good enough to motivate them. Like children, rather than an educator as a manager they just need a dictator like Mourinho or Moyes. They cannot think for themselves and cannot be trusted enough to perform without being given idiot proof tactics to follow. Multiple formations, passing combinations, covering runs, they have no clue about it sadly. An extraordinarily stupid group of players with an extraordinarily naive manager 'leading them'. Will only end in tears now.

The only locally based journo that possesses the courage to nail Martinez is Phil McNulty. Although any 'tough' questions to Martinez about team selection or anything like that would probably be brushed off by Roberto with some usual rubbish.

Could you see us doing similar against Kenwright? I can't.

We had our time of giving support. As we lost four game son the bounce over Christmas we endured it with barely any mention. And how did we get repaid? With a penalty debacle against West Brom, with the most cowardly derby performance in recent memory, with Howard throwing the ball in his net against Chelsea and Leicester, with Lukaku missing tap ins from a yard out just trolling us every week, with Martinez laughing about the whole thing because he's not getting relegated and don't worry all the fans are still singing his name. The whole thing is a joke. I'm not saying sack the manager (although that is one way to do it). I'm saying someone at the lcub should have said to Roberto ' stop messing around picking out of form players all the time like Howard, pick your best 11 and stick with it and get us some points otherwise you're out the door'. Instead the absurd experimentation every single game has continued and the club are happy with it because they'll survive for the TV money and this image of community friendly Everton with nice smiling Roberto persists. If the board aren't upholding the standards then the fans should be but sadly some people are happy with one decent away European performance every season and if you say anything else to the contrary you're not getting behind the team and you're not a 'sound blue'. When will people realise this team stopped playing for the fans a long time ago. Martinez is managing for his own profile and the players are playing for their own careers. If either were working for the fans then they wouldn't have tolerated the abysmal results and weekly embarassments we have endured. Sadly Martinez is on a theoretical ideological field trip and half the players are playing for their next move and half are seeing out their retirement, and no one has a word to say against it. Disgraceful really.

Kenwright would probably take 12th-15th and a Europa League Last 16 defeat. He's so lucky Martinez that we don't have an owner like Daniel Levy because he would have been sacked months ago. 6 wins in 26, with 2 since November would never be accepted at any club. Yet at Everton, one good season gets you an embarrassing mural on a stand and a new 5 year contract.

I lay 100% of the blame for the performances and results of this season at the manager's feet. These players can perform much better but there is something clearly wrong behind the scenes. Be it training, selection, tactics, motivation or a combination of all, I don't know. However, until the manager is gone this will not end. It's gone on for far too long now to simply be down to injuries or form.

I firmly believe that RM has no idea how to get the best out of these players and this is shown time and time again with the exact same formation and tactics being used every leaue game, with the exact same result - crap, slow, insipid performances. If things are not working a good manager will try something different (tactics, players, formation etc) but every game we line up 4231 with virtually the same players, given what looks like the same instructions. Surprise surprise, almost the same performances result.

Every now and then comments from the players (e.g. Garbutt in Dec, Lukaku before) highlight how bad things are behind the scenes. I truly believe that if RM isn't gone in the summer, a lot of our better players will look to leave as I just don't think they're convinced he knows what he's doing and won't want to waste another year of their short careers playing for him. Like them or not, the likes of Mirallas, Lukaku, Barkley, Oviedo and Garbutt are not happy. Rumours also around that Baines is not happy. How long before you can add to that the likes of Robles, Coleman, Besic and Stones?

This guy needs to be shipped off once we're safe in the league and out of the EL. RM may have what it takes with another set of players but fact is we don't have the cash to buy an entire new team. We have to work with what we've got and he clearly cannot manage that. The results this season speak for themselves. The EL has barely papered over the cracks, agree that once we draw a decent side we'll be out (am dreading playing away to the likes of Napoli or Sevilla!).

Not to mention the crap he comes out with in interviews, not practising set pieces, lack of work on defensive play, poor team selections, favourites over in form players....

It would be interesting if Michael and Lyndon could put up a poll to see how many people would like to see RM gone. E.g. three options; gone now, gone in the summer or keep and give him more time.

Unfortunatelly RMs new contract may make him simply too expensive to sack after we (hopefully) avoid the drop. Maybe low season ticket sales will give BK a clear message.

"I have never been tempted to change," he said.

"From starting as a manager at Swansea in 2007, it hasn't been easy.

"Everyone looks at Swansea now and thinks they have played that way for 20 years. It took six months.

"It was very new and people had to be educated.

"But since I left my country to join the British game I would never change my football beliefs."

Groundhog day? Wigan April 2013

Perhaps rightly people are highlighting the money he spent on Lukaku. For me, he's a total enigma. He was awesome against Young Boys and abjectly poor against Leicester. He should have been replaced by Kone at the break. Again only Martinez to blame for that one.

This will be Martinez's 6th season in the premier with 5 of those spent in the bottom half of the league. this is not good enough for a premier manager.

For me, his big issue is that what he clearly regards as strengths, we clearly see as weaknesses. Stubbornness can be an excellent quality in anyone, but you also need a level of self - awareness to understand when it really is you that's got it wrong.

Every Everton manager in my lifetime (Catterick onwards) has had at least one poor season. The good ones have all made mistakes, learnt from them and put them right.

I don't expect our manager to slag off the players, or even openly criticise his own performance. I do expect some signs that he realises where he's going wrong and how to put it right. I can't see those signs with Martinez.

All the best managers get their arses kicked. I thought he'd got his when he got relegated. He's certainly getting it kicked now, probably for the first time in his career and he's not not dealing with it at all.

We can debate all we like on here. The big issue for me is whether he has any credibility with the players, whether he can look them in the eye this summer and have them believe in him.

That's the question Kenwright, the board and the Echo should be asking right now.

His achievement of winning the FA Cup with Wigan ( and the defeat of Everton along the way) was enough to convince BK he was the man for the job albeit that his league record with Wigan was abysmal and had ended in relegation. Significant that he abrogated all blame for that by saying he was not the man to repair the damage at the DW and it was time to move on. You bet it was !

Yet we cannot deny that he did well here last season and I have no doubt that the new contract he was awarded as a consequence greatly reinforces his safety. On the back of those considerations, I suspect he has only to avoid relegation to avoid the sack and get the chance to restore our fortunes next season.

Can he do that ? I suspect not. So before the axe falls we will have to suffer a great deal more pain. It's the price we all will pay for a sloppy appointment in the first place.

You only have to look at Jagielka, every sinew desperately wants to hoof it as soon as the ball reaches him. You can't blame the players for not wanting to play his way if it doesn't suit their game. You must remember, these players all have massive ego's, they don't want to be made to look foolish in front of millions of viewers and supporters alike, which you can understand. It's down to the manager to motivate and get the players playing for you. It's probably the most important facet of the job.

Martinez may well be a good manager, but if the players don't want you in charge, the game is up. Two prime examples are Hodgson at Liverpool, and Villas-Boas at Chelsea.

One thing I will never change my mind on however, is how I want Everton to play football. Last season we had glimpses of what was possible. Arsenal in their pomp were thrilling to watch. Just because we haven't got hundreds of millions doesn't mean we should give up wanting to see 'the joined up stuff' as Ken would say.

There are managers who can achieve this, I'm sure - look at Koeman at Southampton. The shouts for Pulis should embarrass every Blue out there. Are we really aiming for a manager like him?

If Martinez is to go, that's understandable, but I would like to see another continental type manager brought in. Possibly Laudrup, but he was even more laid back with the players than Martinez, if the stories in the press are to be believed.

The likes of Hughes, Allardyce, Pulis and Pardew and all one and the same. Football by numbers, nothing new to add.

1. The positivity movement has many adherents (although it has also been discredited by some researchers). Done to excess it's like pissing down your leg – it provides a momentary warm feeling but does nothing to, or for, anyone or anything else. If you keep singing, 'always look on the bright side of life' whatever happens, in the end people stop listening. I wonder if some of our players have stopped listening to our manager.
2. Players are loyal to managers who defend them in public. I don't expect our manager not to defend our players in public (Howard yesterday) but he does need to ensure anyone's weaknesses are addressed behind the scenes during training. I see little evidence of this: for instance, is there an Evertonian out there who thinks Lukaku can control a ball passed to him at speed? Get Lukaku to spend two hours a day practising this skill so that the muscle memory kicks in. Manure man Ferguson would make sure any player's weaknesses were addressed by repetition in this way, and if they complained of boredom he would tell them to get unbored. Lukaku's potential is enormous but at times he reminds me of Brett Angel.
3. Possession football is fine but vary it a bit. The way we play right angle passes repeatedly just gives the opposition time to marshal the defence and get behind the ball.
4. I sense a stubbornness in our manager which worries me – it reminds me of the sea captain in "Kind Hearts and Coronets."
5. Some of the basics need to be addressed, for instance some plans for handling corners, both when we are defending and when we are attacking. At times we look all at sea.
6. Assess the mood of the defence and how they feel about the keeper, and then change him if necessary. Cloughie had it right: a great goalkeeper makes everyone else feel confident; if the goalie is no longer up to it, then it spreads panic (by the way, we all learned that when we played schoolboy football).

If he wants to play his tactics, at least tell them to bloody move around up front. So often they could just be sprayed with gold paint and start to collect a few bob in a hat.

I am saying we definitely won't be, and will apologise to you on these pages if I am proved wrong. If that happens I will not, however, wear a red shirt for the day nor sing the Gerry Marsden dirge.

I have to say this is speculation few of us expected to be involved in this season although some are still saying it has little to do with poor management. Perhaps it's your fault !

John, some of my answers to your question as to why we are hovering above the zone are contained in my original post - my six reasons.

"As deluded as Martinez" - an interesting thought. I genuinely cannot make up my mind whether he really is as positive as seems to be conveyed by his post match interviews. As I implied in my original post, I think he has to defend the team most of the time, but I would like him to come out and say, if only once: "Today, we suck like a vacuum cleaner. Tomorrow, we practise corners and forward passing."

How else do you explain the difference in performances between Europe and the P.L?

Of course, an industry of bullshit has ridden on the back of this and professionally, you need to be good at whatever you do, or excessive positivity makes you look a bit of an idiot. You also have to modify your approach with people who are resolutely realistic/instinctively negative.

No doubt Martinez would tell you that he started turning things at Swansea and that he kept Wigan up against the odds until the inevitable relegation, but he needs to up his game with us. He did it last season, hasn't done it this season.

Funny that there were no stories of 'player unhappiness' last season when things were going well. I've got no problem with his positivity, but it looks hollow when results and performance have been so poor and so little has been done to change things.

For a long time this season despite the way things were going I was still confident he was the right man for the job and would get things right and this was still my opinion after Thursday nights game.

However yesterdays game and hos post game comments regarding the hapless Tim Howard are the straw that broke this camel's back.

I now think that it would be better for him to go sooner rather than later though I can't see Bill sacking him.

That is a superb post and spot on, I could not have explained it much better. All the footballers as this level need a dictatorship as everything is done for them from such an early age. They are completely lost otherwise.

To tell them to work it out for yourself will only end in disaster and this is showing. This was especially evident yesterday when defending set pieces, they looked so scared as they didnt know who to mark. Baines was marking the tallest player it was and is a shambles.

I don't think they're stupid though. I just don't think they're being trained probably with not enough authority or direction of what the style of play is. To be honest I couldn't motivate myself with being told work it out for yourself by RM for almost every scenario.

We are predictable and lack creativity and teams have sussed Martinez out. Our success last year was built down the flanks and that's what has either been nullified or lost the players/form to reproduce it. Barkley has talents, but even if you set aside loss of form, he is not a playmaker. Gibson made a big difference yesterday and if Osman and/or Pienaar return they might provide the missing creative spark in the middle/on the flanks. But it will be a very nervous time and I am not that hopeful.

Now I have my concerns the direction the club is going, but I’ve never resorted to gratuitous abuse of Martinez or the players, nor have I stated we WILL be relegated.

But the other week some simpleton who couldn’t engage in the debate but was far more forthcoming with the personal insults told me I was probably hoping Everton would be relegated so I could take some ’perverse pleasure’ in coming on TW to tell people "I told you so!" A belief that says a great deal more about the vanity of the individual than me... because:

1) I couldn’t come on TW to "perversely" tell people I told you so when ... I never told anyone so at all!

2) If, horrors of horrors, we ARE relegated, my first thought will not be to get on TW to indulge in someone else’s imaginged ’perverse pleasure’ to give it out ... I will be very much as you describe: in a complete state of shock, bawling my eyes out in a darkened room, thinking the world and life as we know it has ended.

People need to put this season into perspective, every team this season has taken points off each other, who expected Burnley to draw with Chelsea this weekend.

For whatever reason this season things are not going Evertons way.
Barkley suddenly cant do anything right compared to last season, Lukaku is missing more whereas everything he hit last season was going in, Howard spilling or missing the ball where as last season he stopped everything the list goes on and on and yet all these things are Martinez's fault and he should be sacked.

I don't get it

Did you hear the reaction at half time and full time?

I don't think its limited to this site..

He should be playing behind Lukaku, further up the pitch.

The problem with Martinez is that he's in a results business and he isn't getting them. So he keeps dropping points and telling us everything is great, which pisses me of, so heaven knows what others are feeling.

The players aren't under-performing because Martinez is 'positive'. They're under-performing because either Martinez can't explain his methods to them effectively, or because they think his methods are bollocks and are caught between two stools. Either way, he's culpable.

So, to me , Martinez's future with us is based on whether he can get his credibility back with the players.

His philosophy must be working to create that many chances bit players make mistakes, its all about fine lines.

The buck stops with the manager. Ultimately, it is down to him to select the tactics, select the players, motivate the players and to get results.

Aesthetically pleasing performances and pretty football are a bonus, all the more so in our current position.

Barring 1-2 performances, the results and performances this season have been nothing short of disgraceful.

One man has greater influence over that than any other person on the planet.

Guess who it is ...?

Nothing wrong with the 'philosophy', but if it's teamed up with incompetence, poor selection and an inability to see what is/isn't working, people are entitled to ask questions.

I suspect many will agree with you about the players, I certainly do, but Martinez has not been simply let down by them. His lack of preparation, tactical adaptability, his peculiar selections and his stubbornness have been often analysed on here and with much justification. I'm afraid that can't be ignored and its a damning list of shortcomings.

It is always for the manager to ensure that his players do their job. If he cannot do that then he is not fit for his own job.

I'm still believing. Just

Phil Mcnulty now lives near Oxford and works for the BBC Sports website.

He has long severed his links with Merseyside and the Echo, but still maintains a passing interest in local affairs.

Our preparation for the season seems to have been poor. Players who commit howlers on a regular basis are still automatic choices. Our tactics are one dimensional. He adheres to a system that our players seem I'll equipped for. He shoehorns players into positions they are not comfortable in. His substitutions change personnel but rarely tactics. The players often appear to lack motivation. In my view, Simon, this to some extent explains why things haven't been clicking. I believe our current position could have been avoided.

I hope he gets us out of this. It is my view that a new coach would be better. Martinez seems a really nice man and I hope I am totally wrong but I am anxious .

I am certainly not familar with all of the detail of the studies you cite, but I do know (as I suspect you might as well) that the conclusions from some of these studies are not considered to be unproblematic.

As for good ol' Roberto, I become less sanguine about his leadership as his tenure progresses. On current league form we are certainly a long way from the Champions' League.

Other than that I'm not sure what other changes I would have made to the initial line ups that Martinez has put out.

Mirallas doesn't look like he can last 90 minutes, I suspect he only played the full game against Young Boys because Lennon didn't play.

Gibson has only recently been fit to be on the bench the last few games.

Besic I suspect he doesn't completely trust yet as he still gets caught in possession, but he should be forgiven for that.

Other than that I'm not sure what other lineup he could have played with the injuries we have had

So, can someone with a better understanding of the game than me please explain why we persist with a style that doesn't suit our players' strengths?

I would though be quite happy to start with the team that finished Sundays game, Martinez is happy to play them for 15/20 minutes when we need a goal so why not start with it?

I agree that we could have made there back four work harder with two forwards, but playing with natural width (as you also suggest), would also have made there defence have to work harder.

It baffles me sometimes, especially the positions Coleman sometimes takes up for a fullback, but the whole top and bottom is we donÂ’t get enough men in the box. I’m not sure 4-4-2 would work much in the modern game though. look at our nieghbours, they have sometimes been playing with five midfielders, plus two wing backs, and you would get completely overrun playing against those numbers.

I do agree that there are times we could have played the last twenty minutes with two forwards, and actually think Kone and Lukaku could be a good double act.

I know itÂ’s a long shot Mike, and IÂ’m also aware that some people donÂ’t care for Europe, but letÂ’s pray the misery ends in Warsaw, on a sunny night in. May!

Not that any of it will happen, 60K a week for sitting on the bench or 10 -20 mins. here and there, why would you even bother.

If it comes down to the players having to sort it out then the Manager needs sorting out... RIGHT OUT.