Everton's Euro dream extinguished in Kyiv

No, we go there and try to play them at their own game, a surefire recipe fir disaster. Alcaraz should never pull on an Everton shirt again. He was diabolical. Did anyone see the faces of Naismith and Lukaku in close up after the 2nd and 3rd goals went in? They couldnÂ’t re believe what was going on behind them. Any good work they were doing up front was being systematically destroyed by the woeful defence. Now that we only gave our PL status left to play for, surely it is time to say goodbye to our clown of a manager, who proved himself to be woefully inept in team selection yet again. Gibson could have put paid to much of their midfield threat with his forward passing, but no, Barry was there again.

Why leave Alcaraz on at half tome when Stones was warming the bench. And why leave it so late to bring Osman on? His experience might have helped unlock the Kiev defence much sooner than the last ten minutes. DidnÂ’t Martinez say himself the other day what a difference it made to have Ossie fit again? The fans who made the long trek to Kiev were simply cheated by a manager who simply had no idea how to send a team out to defend a lead.

Kiev were not world-beaters, but we made them look like it. IÂ’m sad for my club this morning, and only wish Kenwright would do the right thing and dispense with the services of our inept, useless joke manager. We were, without a doubt humiliated and made to look like a Sunday league team last night and I never thought I would say that about an Everton team. Even my wife who knows little about football, was laughing at our shambolic defending. Her damning words, "ArenÂ’t they at least supposed to TRY to stop them?" will ring in my ears for a long time to come.

Poor league positions for a few yearÂ’s, relegation battles, better players leaving and replaced by dross, from next season the attendances will be significantly down on this season due to far less season ticket holderÂ’s....Who is going to pay 30 plus pound on a regular basis to watch this Everton side under a clueless manager?

The only thing that brought back the fans in the mid 90Â’s was winning the F.A Cup.

The fans now know that all we have here is a group of players with a losing mentality, itÂ’s been proved time and time again when faced with a big occasion.

Crystal Palace at home last year?

Arsenal in their qaurter final?

Too many more to mention.

The fans have had enough now.

Naismith and Barkley in the same team, Barry straight back into a winning side and only Atsu providing width again from the attacking 3 making one side of Everton redundant and thus easier to stifle by Kyiv.

At times it looked like McCarthy and Barry were playing CB they were so deep, this in turn created a huge distance between defence and attack and left an unmarshalled defensive area 25-40 yards out where Kyiv scored from nearly every effort at a criminally flat-footed Howard.

Alcaraz has had injury problems for 3 years and yet plays 3 games in a week with no sign of Distin, who although has been poor this season has pace and is good in the air, both traits we could of done with last night as Alcaraz has neither. Why did Gibson watch on from the sidelines after playing 90 minutes on Sunday to once again select "I have the tapes of Roberto at sea-world" Barry, Alcaraz was deemed fit enough.

If Martinez does not get the hook then the so-called Defensive coach should, someone, anyone! A disorganised shambles.

I never wanted him but Kenwright seemed to just plum for this fella even though he had just been relegated. Did we learn nothing from previous experiences i.e. Joe Royle (pains me to say it as Joe is a better Blue than me).

As for Alcaraz he is one of the worst signings I have ever seen at Everton and the first Everton player I have ever actually hated.

And hate is a strong word.

Alcaraz showed his true ability, which highlighted the glaring omission of keeping Stones on the bench. Frankly if some of the players leave or the manager goes I wonÂ’t lose any sleep. A club on the road to nowhere.

Moyes was a far better manager than Martinez, we just didnÂ’t see it at the time because he had gone stale after being here 11 yearÂ’s.

Moyes at least always had his team physically fit and more often than not organized the defence.
People will say we got drubbingÂ’s under him but when your in the job a decade thatÂ’s going to happen, did Alex Ferguson not lose games heavily at Manchester United?

Moyes may never have won us a trophy but then your seeing now that the same drawbacks exist with "getting over the winning line".

Martinez has been completely ignorant of working on the defence and the fitness sides of our game, thatÂ’s been plainly obvious all season.
He has been making bad decisions for a year now going right back to when he took a team to Anfield that lost 4-0 , but for a missed penalty we could have lost that game 9-0.

He is Mike Walker all over again, trying to adopt a playing style that you just canÂ’t get away with at Premier League level.
Walker tried it and failed and to me the similarities with that era are as clear as day.

We will eventually get relegated under Martinez, if heÂ’s here four more yearÂ’s, we will certainly be in relegation battles.
The Wigan fanÂ’s warned us this would happen yet Kenwright was so willing to appoint a manager that had just successfully relegated a team, that fact alone gives me a cold shiver knowing the man in the seat could make such a reckless decision.

I have no faith left in anyone at this football club.

Unbelievably Martinez is in the echo defending Alcaraz!

But Martinez, who opted to keep John Stones on the bench, emphasised that the same defence had kept a clean sheet in SundayÂ’s 3-0 Premier League win over Newcastle, and that a similar one, again featuring the Jagielka-Alcaraz combination, had only conceded once in the first leg against Dynamo.

That misses AlcarazÂ’s pass back to Howard, early on against Newcastle, that nearly resulted in a goal. And the fact that the first goal we conceded against Kiev was as a result of an Alcaraz mess leading us to concede a corner. From which he just smiled and walked away.

After last nightÂ’s...whatever that was ( topped off with another excruciating post match interview that had me on the brink of setting fire to my TV ) to get an idea of how bad I feel about all things EFC right now I would willingly hand David Moyes another 11 year contract! Yeah, that bad.

Obviously it neednÂ’t be that drastic in real life. Simply sack the clown and hire someone with a record that shows they might have some clue as to what they are doing.

I would be very happy with Bilic and content with dare I say it Steve McClaren, infact pretty much anyone listed in the running at the bookies would represent a vast upgrade on the lunatic that weÂ’ve currently got running the asylum.

Oh Bill, for once, do the right thing. Please.

Given this group of players weÂ’d probably be fifth under Moyes and have exited the cups at the same stage (probably without the 5-2 drubbing). You know what you get with Moyes. I can buy the argument he wasnÂ’t enough for Everton but I will never buy that he was worse than Martinez. HeÂ’s in a different league to Roberto who has produced some of the worst football and Everton performances iÂ’ve ever seen.

Everton last night were truly pathetic and you could actually see players looking for others to blame.Dare I say Lukakus body language was not great.

I think our league is becoming to dominated by the non contact bridged and it shows when we are in Europe.

Kiev pissed all over us in everyway last night,

Any other team that we have played this season that has wanted it more than us has picked up a result against us.
Leicester wanted it at Goodison and almost won.
Stoke played with passion and beat us easily.
We gave a poor Arsenal side a comfortable afternoon.
Then Kiev last night simply wanted every loose ball more than us and they got the win they craved.

Its the same old story.
When opponents need a result or try hard, inevitably we donÂ’t win.

We only beat sides who underperform on the day or are simply shite.

Lukaku is excellent now but is that because he wants to go? I sincerely hope not because in the last 4 games heÂ’s looked top notch including his control - much work still to do but at least he doesnÂ’t look like a flop for the 㿈m.

We need to move out some senior players as they arenÂ’t offering us anything. Howard has been dreadful all season. Alcaraz isnÂ’t up to premiership standard and being preferred to Stones and Distin seriously questions Martinez judgment. Barry has has a very poor season compared to last year. Gibson and Besic deserve the spot ahead of him.

We had a decent run in the Europa League but now we have a massive game against QPR a defeat there and we are right back in the dog fight.

What does the Chairman think now? His continued silence is perhaps an indication of what he thinks, after all, he is a fan like us ,but with a lot of money at stake. Martinez has to be on a final warning the way things are going.

We started this game like we was losing. We were wide open, and as anyone of our first team, ever heard the shout, "stop the fucking cross"?

I honestly donÂ’t think it will be very advisable given whatÂ’s gone on this season and the general ill-feeling that has existed.

It should be more like a lap of apology with them all on their knees in front of the Street End begging for forgiveness and hoping the loyal fans decide to return next season.

Sometimes you donÂ’t appreciate what you had till its gone, yes Moyes had his failings but I always expected us to finish in the top 7 with him in charge. I remember Charlton fans saying they wanted rid of Curbishley they were 11th at the time, how they wish they were in the Premiership never mind 11th.

We have some good and talented players but we donÂ’t have a well drilled team. To me that is a damning failure of the present management and a major part of our problems thus far.

We must now hope we donÂ’t become that team that spirals down to the dreaded third from bottom slot and that chairman and board take an interest as all us fans can do is worry and hope urgent action is taken on training ground and in dressing room to see us over the line.

Still we can try and lift the lads from the stands because WE ARE EVERTON.

UP THE BLUES

LetÂ’s face it, all teams have bad days, but even managers like Mourinho and Wenger have the guts to say so when their players let the club down, which is not often I know. If Martinez us convinced his defence wasnÂ’t at fault then he should be man enough to say, "It was my fault. I picked the team, the formation and the tactics, so I must be held responsible."

Will he...no, of course not, because in his little delusional world, everything in the garden is rosy and he thinks Alcaraz had a phenomenal game.. Enough said!

I donÂ’t think IÂ’ve ever seen a more inept defensive display from Everton, Kiev had to do nothing to score, just lob hopeful balls into the box resulting in chaos.

And where were the defensive duo of McCarthy and Barry closing down outside the box? There were acres of space for KievÂ’s players to attack with no great pace.

This Kiev team were bog standard with no real pacy or tricky players and they didnÂ’t even have to sweat to score five, a shocking indictment on the amateurish way our club is being run.

Martinez needs to be dismissed today.

It was a big pleasure that you visited our country and this match. I want to thank you for the respect you showed during the match and during our communication in the beer bar "Bavarian house of beer" near the stadium. Definitely, you are much more better than french Guingamp we had met on previous stage. I wish you and your team all the best and a lot of ukrainian fans really like your team. I hope Everton FC will take the high place in the table sheet.

Thank you, with great respect from Ukraine. You and your players are really good.

The manager said he thought we would have tightened up once we scored? It didnÂ’t look like the players had talked about it to me, because we just carried on playing the same way.

The major concern is the future now and the worry of relegation has not yet been extinguished, but the club can never move forward until things change behind the scenes.

I think the masses will vote with their feet unless there is a change of manager, but is that what we really want for Everton?

We have stood still for years as a football club, but as this year has shown, once you start going backwards itÂ’s not easy to stop. Things have got to change fast or the final demise of An English Institution, wonÂ’t be too far away.

Alcaraz is a Roberto player in that he is comfortable (and IÂ’m not saying good) in possession. What was called for in defence was - defence.

Â’The whole team didnÂ’t defend wellÂ’ is basically a cover for one of the most calamitous decisions/performances any Everton manager has ever made - playing Alcaraz. I donÂ’t know about Â’white men canÂ’t jumpÂ’, but he certainly canÂ’t. Beyond that the setup and selection was wrong. Too deep, too many defensive midfielders, lack of balance. But what can we expect - this has been the pattern most of the season. If I wasnÂ’t an atheist IÂ’d be reduced to praying for our PL survival as I certainly donÂ’t trust Martinez to get us out of his own mess.

I was then less impressed when he was allowed to swan off to the World Cup to the detriment of our pre-season.

And, as we all know, things went fro bad to worse, and then from worse to last night.

The fact that we made the opposition look like superstars via our shambles of a defence, bolstered largely by a lacklustre midfield, made me wonder what this continental clown does for his money.

In any other career,apart fro banking, this delusional buffoon would be shown the door along with all the players he brought apart from Lukaku, and maybe McCarthy.

At times in the past, I dreamed of Moyes getting the push, so it proves the saying Â’Be Careful. What You Wish For.Â’

Looking back this morning makes the Moyes era seem like glory days.

I’m afraid Martinez is kidding himself... his team selection cost us the tie tonight make no mistake and Alcaraz (who is no better than a poor Sunday League player) cost us THREE goals as well as being at fault for the one last week when he headed a cross (he didn’t even need to touch) over his own cross bar to concede a corner from which they scored. Had he had left it then Jags would’ve headed it away down the field.

How Martinez can justify his team selection tonight is beyond me and almost every Evertonian who witnessed this pathetic surrender. The worst part is they are as gutless as Martinez is tactically clueless. Alcaraz was an embarrassment & Atsu (who hasnÂ’t played all season) no more than a passenger for the time he was on the field. How he didn’t change things at 1-1 or at worst 1-2 is completely baffling & the fact that Barry was on the pitch before Gibson was absolutely astounding.

Roberto, get real... their finishing wasn’t the difference. Your team selection and our comedy defending was!!

Jags is coming to end of it too, Alcaraz was awful last night but watch the game again if you dare, Jagielka wasnÂ’t much better.
Stones should have played but he wouldnÂ’t have stopped the first, fourth or fifth goals anyway, much in the same way he couldnÂ’t keep us in the cup away at West Ham with more shit goals being conceded.

We had two defensive midfielders last night who offered no protection at all aswell so they should take some responsibility also.

I hope he comes back to haunt Kenwright to remind him what this club was once all about...

I really wanted Martinez to succeed I honestly...I was secretly hoping he would turn out to be our Sir Alex Ferguson...IÂ’ve even stood by his this season but no more after last night...his after match comments beggar belief...If this is not a man with his head in the stand thaen I donÂ’t know what is.

AlcaTRASH should NEVER wear an Everton shirt ever again...Good managers are not afraid to make tough decisions and this fella just canÂ’t do it...he sticks by the same under performers week in week out and if he doesnÂ’t get us relegated this season then he surly will next season.

His Wigan team couldnÂ’t defend and look what happened to them....now his Everton team canÂ’t defend...can you see a pattern developing.

Roberto presumably knew that his defence canÂ’t be trusted to keep a clean sheet so he would need to attack and score. And to be fair, Barkley (twice) and Atsu came very close to adding to LukakuÂ’s goal.

But that game was won and lost because of two things - Dynamo scored two brilliant goals (undefendable, I would contest), and three awful ones.

It is not, repeat not, MartinezÂ’s fault that four international defenders and an international keeper screwed up three times or that his two defensive midfielders seemed largely incapable of the getting hold of and keeping the ball.

I know some people, especially it seems ToffeeWebbers, love nothing more than Martinez bashing but once that side goes onto the pitch it is their responsibility to do their jobs, something most of them failed to do.

Where Martinez is to blame is in picking and sticking with Alcaraz, who should at least have been hooked at half time in favour of Stones.

It doesnÂ’t matter how defensively you play or try to shut up shop at 0-0 or 1-1, if you canÂ’t defend a long cross or a Moyesesque hoof youÂ’re going to come unstuck.

Neither of those things happened. 3-1 down at half time and no changes. What did Martinez see in the first half that made him think we should not make a change? This isnÂ’t an armchair manager rant, I am truly baffled as to what he saw.

All season weÂ’ve played 4231 sometimes 433 and all season weÂ’ve been exposed. The defence is all at sea, the midfield is usually just Naismith and there is no link up play anywhere on the pitch.

4-1 down, Ross picks up the ball, tries to take a player on and have a run at goal, cut to manager on the sideline bellowing "Ross, just relax." WeÂ’re 4-1 down and going out you fucking cretin.

In the second half Alcaraz played like a spare man, not someone who is supposed to play one of the most disciplined positions on the pitch. His team mates were yelling at him telling him where to position himself. HeÂ’s 30 something! He must have played that position for 10 years at least! Why doesnÂ’t he know what to do?

If it wasnÂ’t for Jagielka at the back and Lukaku up front weÂ’d already be relegated. IÂ’m done blaming the players. No matter how well or badly they play weÂ’ll always lose more games than we win if weÂ’re unfit, donÂ’t press, donÂ’t work on defence, donÂ’t practise corners, chop and change for no reason, field unbalanced teams, employ upto 3 players to play the same position at the same time, ignore width, back off the opposition and play as 11 individuals.

If Martinez was the right man to address these issues, he would have done it by now. Actually, heÂ’s the root cause of all these problems. He should have gone in December. All the pundits are saying well be safe but where are the points coming from? We were lucky to get a draw at home to the bottom club.

The club needs to face reality, this man is taking us down. Even if by some miracle we stay up well have to put up with a manager next season who has failed to learn a single thing from the huge number of mistakes heÂ’s made.

Martinez out, ASAP.

The fact of the matter is we tread water, and the excitement of last year kidded everyone. Not least the chairman, who thought he had cracked it again, and even put a Saddam Hussein like Muriel, of our manager, on the side of the stand. Ten minutes after giving him a new five year contract!

People say Kenwright loves Everton, "how could I disagree" but if the main reason for him being chairman, is to keep us out the clutches of a really bad owner, then standing still is a miracle, but still, itÂ’s only delaying the inevitable.

Saying that Kenwright doesnÂ’t pick the team, and make the tactics, so heÂ’s not entirely to blame.

What I wish I could arrange is all twebbers in one place to watch this seasons games and what weÂ’d witness is schoolboy defensive howler after schoolboy howler without a single game in which we were opened up a la cittteh vs Barca.

What made last night even worse was the inter v Wolfsburg game with Wolfsburg being 1goal better than us. What did they do? Well they denied Inter space, pressed the ball yÂ’ know all those things you were taught when u was 10 and has been the blueprint for protecting leads for the last 50 years.

IÂ’ll now join the chorus is saying that heÂ’s got to go, heÂ’s supposed to be a student of football; I donÂ’t know maybe he throws a bit of abstract art into his studies because he defiantly doesnÂ’t see the world as other people see it.

In any job minimum standards are required, the Everton manager is expected to keep us in the prem, have a few decent cup runs and nothing more. I canÂ’t imagine slimy bill saying to any manger, "achieve this or else". This isnÂ’t the Everton way, being nice and cuddly is enough by the looks of it.

When I saw the team I though Â’oh for fuckÂ’s sakeÂ’. This feels like a point of no return for me, a bit like when we lost to the RS in the semi-final a few years back, which was the point I lost faith in Moyes. Last season was so exciting and everything felt fresh and positive. This season has been the worst I can remember and the way things are going it could be the worst possible.

Watching the game with my three sons last night and seeing their horrified disappointment I actually felt bad for forcing them to be blues (weÂ’re 200 miles from Liverpool). ThatÂ’s how shit last night was.

Since December after almost every lost game I have been expecting to read that RM has been sacked,now even if we lose to a dreadful QPR team on Sunday he will still probably be in the job.

HeÂ’s one of the most promising young managers in football, and he took us to our highest ever points tally last season. He also took us to the last 16 of the Europa League against all expectations.

Last night was shite, but we were also hugely unlucky. They scored two absolute wondergoals, and without those we would have gone through on away goals. We went to Kiev and had more shots and more corners, as well as hitting the post twice, but it felt like every 50/50 and every bobble and deflection went their way.

On another day we would have coasted through.

Get behind him and maybe he can surprise us in a good way next season.

I canÂ’t think of a single positive to hang my hat on.

Ahh well...we can just celebrate staying up now then eh?

You cannot be a one trick pony, refuse to move when that trick isnÂ’t working and be a good football manager. He had his chance, he is blowing it and I canÂ’t see him reappearing in the Premier League soon if Kenwright pulls the trigger

"Last night summed up for me the reason for our less than adequate performances all season as well as the fact we canÂ’t handle the pressure occasions," Ken writes.

I concur. Our EL performances have papered over the considerable cracks in our domestic results. Eliminated from both cup competitions at the 1st hurdle, still in the relegation vortex in the league.

Sadly, as was inevitable, last night we finally replicated our true form this season - our league form - in the EL.

Ken adds: "We have some good and talented players but we donÂ’t have a well drilled team. To me that is a damning failure of the present management and a major part of our problems thus far."

Again, I agree. As recently as last season we had a well drilled team, as we have had for the last decade, that kept itÂ’s shape and both the individual players and the collective team knew, understood and played their roles in an overall strategy. That discipline is completely absent this season.

"We must now hope we donÂ’t become that team that spirals down to the dreaded third from bottom slot..."

Amen to that, Brother Ken.

"... and that chairman and board take an interest as all us fans can do is worry and hope urgent action is taken on training ground and in dressing room to see us over the line."

To that I would add, as much as he is reviled and maligned (with some justification), BK does have a close relationship with his players.

My belief is BK will not take action on the managerÂ’s position before seasonÂ’s end, hoping we have enough to avoid the drop.

But in reviewing the season he will canvas his senior players and others for their confidential assessment of this seasonÂ’s events.

Because IMO BK has a HUGE decision to make. Continue to believe in and stick with Martinez and entrust him with the summerÂ’s transfer kitty. (Which risks alienating players disillusioned with Martinez or those unwilling to renew expiring contracts as long as he remains).

And should he remain will RMÂ’s 3rd season be like his 1st, his 2nd, or somewhere in between? None of us can say with absolute certainty.

Or does BK cut the clubÂ’s potential losses and pay RM off? Again, IMO, any compensation payment to RM would be peanuts against the loss of earnings should Everton be relegated from the cash cow that is the PL.

Then there is the question of RMÂ’s replacement. Many insipidly claim no high profile manager would take the Everton job. I vehemently disagree with that claim.

Sunderland, in the dire straits they are in, at the arse end of the season, the very worst time to recruit a manager, appointed Dick Advocaat within 24 hours of sacking Poyet. HeÂ’s got a pretty decent CV!

The PL is awash with money and a draw for the very best players and managers alike. Nobody will convince me Everton, with the players we have, the facilities at Finch Farm and our well respected academy, does not represent a more attractive proposition than, for example, Sunderland.

Make no mistake. There will be plenty of top quality managers, domestic and foreign, eager to take the Everton job should it become available.

Of course, any managerial appointment carries risk. But this single decision - stick or twist with RM - will potentially largely determine the next 5 -10 years for EFC.

I believe it is that critical.

I very much doubt whether Kenwright will fire him given the financial implications due to the comp paid bringing him in and then the comp having to be paid getting rid, plus it would make him look a complete fool for giving him that extension in the first place.

I think this is going to be spun along the lines of second season syndrome and Bobby will get it right just have patience etc, until it all goes tits up next season of course!

I’m not saying Martinez has been perfect, of course he hasn’t, but he did enough last season to deserve another throw of the dice. This season has been rubbish domestically and I’m as pissed off at the rest of you. But you have to look at the bigger picture. Who would we hire if we sack Martinez? Ferguson? Redknapp? Moyes? I would be much more worried going into next season without Martinez than I would be with him.

As I said, he is one of the most promising managers in football and did enough last season to deserve another chance. Let’s not turn into Newcastle fans.

I also agree that this decision in the summer is one of the most important in our history given the money coming in to the PL and the danger of our sliding into obscurity - by which I mean the mediocrity of mid to lower table at best or, at worst, the slump of a Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday etc.

We will be here whatever, most of us on TW, and longer term I remain optimistic because we have to be as Evertonians. But the stakes have never been higher.

While I don't think my concerns it will achieve much on their own, maybe if all of us who think Mr Martinez is out of his depth contacted the club it MAY achieve something... stranger things have happened!

No doubt he may repair the damage to his CV in time, but why do we have to be the mugs who put up with his "learning" of basic management skills ? All another season will do is prolong the agony for all parties as he has do strayed time and again that he isn't learning from his mistakes.

Your approach is unfortunately the one that The Dear Leader will take hoping like you, in best Denis Norden tradition, that it'll be alright on the night. It won't.

For the last 12 years, me and few mates travel over 3 times a season twice before Christmas and once after Christmas. We have cancelled the Burnley game we were meant to attend on April 18th because the football we are playing is crap.

After attending the Crystal Palace and Swansea games before Christmas, I left Goodison Park disgusted. the great atmosphere before and during the match wasn’t there and I don’t blame the fans – I blame brown shoes for his sideways backwards tic-tac shit he plays. It doesn’t get the crowd involved. He has to get sacked or else he could take us down.

I will miss coming over on the 18th; Liverpool is a great city and we have met many fellow Evertonians over the years who we now call great friends but I feel we have to make a stand!

ROBERTO OUT, PLEASE!!!

To sum up how bad it is, people were saying that Osman should have been brought on earlier. A guy who has been one of the most derided players on this website for years is now the saviour.

I knew that we need a 2 or 3 goal cushion in the home tie.

There’s one constant with Everton: they always let you down.

Martinez isn't tactically astute to look at the things that could make the difference in small margins. He doesn't care if his teams concede goals - That's why we couldn't park the bus last night. He doesn't know how to set his teams up to defend. All good managers know that tactics need to change in certain games. Look how Mourinho got Chelsea to park the bus against the RS last season, but in other games he's got them playing good football where they score lots of goals.

So if other teams have worked out how we play who should adapt and alter their tactics.. Should Martinez realise that he needs to revise his methods, swallow his pride and concede he needs to look at the dark art of defending...or do we expect other teams to accommodate us so Martinez can play the attacking football that worked last season??

In my opinion there's no chance of either happening so how can he continue as our manager, Oscar?

I was in the minority on TW who continued to support Martinez. I'm not a fan of Moyes so last season was a breath of fresh air. I put all the above concerns at the back of my mind because I was clinging on to the hope we could win the Europa, get CL qualification and the kudos of that would maybe attract investment, so we could sign better players who could execute Martinez's philosophy. Well that dreams over and we're just left with the nightmare.

However, for me, I firmly believe that last year was down to a mixture of the legacy Moyes left (fit, well organised) and the more attacking approach and confidence Martinez seem to instil in the players. Whoever organised preseason is partly to blame, however, the players are professional sportsman. If we truly have the school of science back their testing should have shown that fitness levels were not at the right level and training should have been adjusted. The players perhaps should have done extra sessions to make up for the fact that the training being done was more skill based than fitness. They have plenty of free time when they can be out running.

My next point is that Martinez at times has had his team selection horribly wrong given the formation he has tried to fit them into and at times almost seems pig headed and stubborn. To be a good leader you have to recognise that what you are doing is wrong and change it. Carrying on doing the same thing gets you the same results after all. I am not convinced by his judge of player either. For me, Alcaraz is causing all the problems in defence. When the holding midfield players, Jags and Coleman are all having to keep one eye on Anton and his positional player and what he is trying to do with the ball rather than concentrating on their own job it is no wonder they can't attain the level that they did last year. The man is a liability and a complete waste of his wages. I'm sure he is a terribly nice chap but we don't want that at Everton, we want winners. McGeady is also a waste of wages, he gives the ball away so much and does not work hard enough off the ball.

What I will say though is that last season we were in a far better place in terms of hope and expectation. That was greater than any hope or expectation I experienced under Moyesy even the season we qualified for the champions league. I just hope that Martinez is man enough to recognise where he has gone wrong and change it. I worry he is too stubborn. Those calling for his head though are wasting their breath, I honestly only believe he would go if were actually in the relegation zone and Bill was left with no choice.

It would really be great if we could have a good transfer window, get business done early and get some exciting talent in. I don't think signing Lennon will be the way forwward though. I don't believe once he got his contract offer he would work as hard - I hope he proves me wrong

Well, my second season as a Toffee fan is an eye opener, no hugs for the manager who seems to over-think and out-coach himself on a weekly basis. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) — RM should follow this motto.

What's happened to 'close the space' 'show them on their weaker foot' when did 'sir' coach you that at school 8? 10? 12?

And don't get me started on what Ratters called the comedy of errors; the 2nd & 3rd goals. Ok let's assume that it was a bad day at the office and that Alcaraz had a mare-stuff happens.

BUT put it in context: we'd just got back to 1-1 and therefore we were through, and a player was allowed to knock a ball into the area with no pressure on the ball-a Martinez trait that we witnessed all season and scarily reminiscent of Wigan.

In short Martinez is not a young manager per se this isn't his first appointment and he's brought the same mistake laden football that he served up at Wigan

Yes it was right for him to given a chance to prove himself at a top 6 club rather than firefighting at the bottom. But he's turned the meanest defence in the EPL into a shambles. Sorry he's been given the chance with a talented top side and blown it.

Easy win on Sunday, Lennon can't play so replace him with someone, Bob's your Uncle......unfortunately Bob's our manager who wants to tinker with everything and prove he's "dead clever like"

He's been doing it since the Palace game last season which effectively did for our chase for fourth and he's been doing it all this season just to get his mates back into the side.

Useless manager with no tactical awareness of what it takes to a) win a game or b) shut out a game when we have the advantage.

Even at 1-1 last night we could have calmed it down and suppressed them, but no Kiev knew all they had to do was punt the ball long in between the two dopes at centre back and wait for the keystone cops rendition

Distan employs his own personal trainer during the summer to ensure his fitness level is similar to the younger members of the squad when they return to pre-season training. Having such a professional attitude didn't do him much good did it?

It truly amazes me that people honestly think that football managers are so rare a breed that we shouldn't get rid of one that is seriously underperforming becasue we might not find another.

Wake up! ANY established premiership side is capable of attracting a decent manager because there aren't that many clubs and dozens of talented managers would jump at the chance given the opportunity. A name like Laudrup went to Swansea ffs - bet he didn't even know where Swansea was before the job became available.

Should the Everton seat become vacant there would be a queue around GP of candidates wanting the job. Established club, average 35k+ gate, history, sleeping giant about them and ....................a truck load of sky money about to be dumped into it!

Please spare me the 'who else would/could we get' nonsense.

I argue the same in post 67.

The difference for Martinez was, last season he had a solid defensive unit that with some good loan players and a couple of purchases was a platform for a good season with the chance to start introducing his philosophy slowly into the squad. This season with his time at the world cup the poor pre-season he tried to introduce his full philosophy system all at once and even after a couple of months that showed that it was not working simply refused to except that fact and continued with his style that eventually got us in this predicament .

If Martinez was willing to except responsibilities for what has gone on this season I believe he should be given another chance but, as he seems to stubborn to any sort of change I do not think he should be given any more time to ruin the club.

I do not think it is a money problem to fire him as I think B.K.is as stubborn as Martinez and is to stubborn to admit to another of his many mistakes since becoming chairman.

Link

One line in particular in the article could define to a T what it is to be an Evertonian:

"The best way to be as a fan is to have the maximum emotional investment in a team but the least expectation of success..."

Maybe the upcoming press conference will be used to announce his resignation?

We live in hope.

They probably would as long as they continued to be in the top 4. Before last year Arsenal hadn't won the FA cup since 2005. Nine years. They haven't won the league since 2004. Eleven years. But they have finished in the top 4 for 17 going on 18 consecutive seasons and all under the same manager. They've also moved from a ground that held 38,000 to one that holds 60,000 while we have been coming up with one failed scheme after another. Riverside, Kirby, now its the park up the road. Bollox!!

The fact is that these days lack of silverware will always be forgiven just as long as you get into the CL because that's where the money is. This has completely distorted PL football and when push comes to shove cups will always be sacrificed for a top 4 finish.

All respect to you and your team too. you will have seen from our fans and players that we play with respect (too much respect sometimes!). We re not like the other teams in PL who like to win at any cost - usually by feigning, cheating (Chelsea and Man Utd are the principal but not sole culprits). We have a sense of history and of values. But our team is not in a good moment with our manager (and chairman) as you will see if you read these posts. We all very much hope things will improve soon.

I'm a great Russophile (in the board sense of the term!) and wish you, your team and your country all the best. You deserved the win last night.

All best
Paul

If Mourinho was available and said he'd love to manage Everton I might think differently, but we don't live in a fantasy dream world. There is no one better than Martinez who is available at the moment. Sacking him would create a downward spiral that could take this club into a dark, dark era.

Again, I completely understand all of your frustrations and why you have said what you've said. I just completely disagree with sacking Martinez.

Bring on QPR.

If we go down, he won't be shaken a jot and will eventually walk away, citing some obscure and wholly irrelevant statistic (more square passes in a season than ever before - or something as quirky as that) as a mark of his excellent performance and of the enduring efficacy of his footballing philosophy (in as much as he has one!).

He is deluded, hyperbolic and totally inept at tactics, motivation, team selection and self-assessment. For everyone's sake, he must be relieved of his duties ASAP.

I am prepared to give him another 9 months, till December, to see if he is indeed the real deal or is in fact the snake oil selling, fake charlatan many claim he is. Only time will tell I suppose.

I’m genuinely intrigued.

When you say "There is no one better than Martinez who is available at the moment. Sacking him would create a downward spiral that could take this club into a dark, dark era."

Could you give us a lesson # 101 as to why you believe this?

Martinez is not willing to budge on his own stubborn principles and I fail to see how that will change between the months of June to August going into next season.

Not exactly all sunny and light at the moment, is it?

His job was to build on solid foundations and take us to the next level; in fact he said that . I don't like clubs that sack managers at the drop of a hat; stability is everyth

It's a particularly irritating trait he has shown all season usually with the same depressing outcome. In other words he can't be trusted . Of course a change of manager would benefit us the alternative next season would be chaos.

A man totally out of his depth-get shut

Everton manager Roberto Martinez says a winter break could help Premier League clubs competing in Europe.

From Everton's point of view good defending would have been far more helpful than a nice winter break.

"It can make a big difference in a squad that is playing domestically in two cup competitions, when others are playing one cup competition."

No need to worry there then as there is little likelihood of us being involved in ANY cups in the foreseeable future.

However, the personel and quality (on paper) of the team that night and the squad available to RM last night cannot be compared.

Lest we forget, we scored 2 away goals last night, hit the woodwork twice and their keeper made a blinding save from Atsu. That alone should have been enough to ensure our passage to the last 8.

It is glaringly obvious what is the primary problem under RM’s tenure at Everton. He has twice publicly declared it to the world, most recently on the eve of last night’s match:

"Everton is not set up NOT to concede goals."

This man is not for changing. Stick with him and it will be more of the same next year.

Why can't a dignified club like ours have a cogent, coherent, genuinely decent man as manager? There are a few out there, and we do pay good wages etc.

It's such a shame that Kenwright ru(i)ns our club.

Feel like I'm getting a nasty dose of karma; Everton make you pay even for a little bit of schadenfreude!

I believe that Martinez is the biggest threat to our club in it's history. He will relegate us and move on without a thought. Kenwright has a chance to, for once, do the right thing. Sack this arrogant charlatan immediately.

A man like the passionate budding Tim Sherwood perhaps?

I'd actually love to see someone with Sherwood's passion and brutal honesty in charge of my club.

"We now have 11 cup finals remaining"..

Does this guy ever actually think before he speaks at all?????

Talk about antagonizing the situation regarding the fans already worn patience..

Also we have Baines with "We must finish the season strongly."

Just shut the fuck up.

a) Be involved in a match with 7 goals - 3 from wonder strikes, end-to-end action, fantastic viewing for millions of neutrals, shots hitting posts, dreadful refereeing etc.

or

b) A boring 0-0 draw with no real action – followed by a last 8 match against Fiorentina?

Why doesnÂ’t BK just give it all up & sell Everton up to a sinking rich tycoon with passion for success to be Number One?

When is he going to be big enough to hold his hands up and stop with the excuses?

I've just seen that comment and nearly choked on my chips.

To me, he's deflecting away from his own short-coming. He's either:

(a) completely without self-insight (to see the long list of faults closer to home).

(b) so full of his own self-importance that he thinks he's a big cheese in the footballing world (ala his Brazil World Cup stint) and that people want to hear his opinion.

(c) Both.

Please God:
1 - We survive this season in the PL.
2 - RM is a stain on our history by the second Bank Holiday in May.

Have we been gifted a couple of extra games out of pity?

Was I imagining it or could Howard have done a lot better with some of their goals last night? That first one was a good strike but he just stood there frozen and made no attempt whatsoever to save it, he really is fucking useless.

I just don’t know why the thin Spanish waiter can’t see that but most everyone else can, he has to go – and please take the bearded fool with you.

I very much doubt Martinez will be sacked this season but, if he's here next season and brings in the likes of Cleverly, I'll probably commit hari kari because another season of watching absolute shit football again would be unbearable. There are coaches out there who would jump at the chance to manager us and if BK had any vision he'd have a short list now.

Anyone can see we have the spine of a very good team with Stones, Barkley and Lukaku who have the potential to be top top class. We don't know whether Robles, Garbutt and Besic cut the mustard because they never get a long enough run in the team due to 'The Leaders' being recalled at the first opportunity but for me I'd put the rest on the market and flog who we can.

Okay, then... this would mean a massive rebuild,lots of in's and outs but I believe Evertonians would give a new manager time, a season or more if they see progress at work. So for me this rudderless shambles of a manager has to go!

All Black method - never change a winning side, always change a losing side. Not that they lose much.

Roger, John, Joe... spot on.

"Distan employs his own personal trainer during the summer to ensure his fitness level is similar to the younger members of the squad when they return to pre-season training. Having such a professional attitude didn't do him much good did it?"

Outright nonsense. Distin, until last season, was playing to a high standard in the Prem, at 36. I'd say it did him plenty of good.

He would still have been more than capable of doing a job as a squad member this season. However since January he has been bombed out by a manager that cant organise a team defensively or provide a hint of discipline, shape or cohesion. All our defensive players have gone backwards.

I'm not so fond of Sherwood.

I think Laudrup might be the man. Klinsmann would overhaul the club and instill an enthusiasm but without Roberto's fluff and doctrinaire rigidity.

I'd love to see Duncan as No 2, to a hungry foreign manager. That would be perfect.

So, I sat watching my team last night thinking "Please, Everton, give me what I crave – a result that will make me get up on Friday morning a smile on my face and the euphoria of thinking that we did it, we are in the next round." What I witness was the most embarrassing capitulation I think I have endured as an Evertonian.

I look for reasons why; Was it an off day? Was it the occasion? Was it because it was Thursday? Any plausible reason would have given me some small consolation! But, no matter how I try to find a reason that is remotely acceptable, I keep coming back to the fact that the man in charge got everything about the performance absolutely wrong!

Selection – why Alcaraz? Tactics – why no Osman or Gibson? Why do we have to pass the ball a zillion times when Kiev penetrated our defence with three/four swift and decisive passes.

The whole matter comes down to direction, which is also the root of the problem and Mr Martinez you are too blame without a shadow of doubt. The result itself will not stop me following my passion it has been with me for many many years, but for the first time in as many years as a very proud Blue I do not think I have felt this despondent! Is it going to get any better under the current regime? I fear not...

I though his first season in charge vindicated my faith. Most Premier League points, close to a Champions League spot and qualified for Europa. Lukaku, Deulofeu, Barry and McCarthy in and no key players out. Then this summer he somehow convinces Kenwright to part with 㿈m for Lukaku who is going to be one of the great Premier League strikers. Besic looked like a good bit of Moyes like wheeling an dealing. Stones and Barkley playing regularly. Were on the up!

Then the season begins and it is one defensive lapse after another. Playing well but throwing away points because of a poor pre-season and a lack of organisation. These poor results then seemed to knock out confidence and we seemed to loose our fighting spirit and togetherness. Europe seemed like the possible salvation of a wretched season, but last night we threw that away too.

I would love to see Roberto turn things around as I really brought in to his vision, but I'm getting to the stage now where I can't help but nod my head in agreement with nearly every comment on ToffeeWeb. I do think patience is a virtue and chopping and changing managers is counter productive. If he stays on I pray that he learns a harsh lesson from this season, gets the team fit, gets the defence organised and learns to be more tactically flexible. If he can't do those crucial things then he has to go before we get ourselves in real trouble!

He's lost the fans and, by all accounts, the dressing room too. Lose against QPR and surely BK will be forced to do what he should have done months ago.

I have been in the 'Bobby out' camp for a while now but I just hope he has enough left in him to pick a winning team for Sunday. Gibbo, Stones, Lennon and Robles MUST start if we are to stand any chance. Didn't he once go on about trying Baines in a central midfield role? Try it! Garbutt is a capable left back.

I haven't actually rated McCarthy for a good few months now but he is much better than Barry. I do worry about Besic, he always looks like red card ready to happen but I think he should start. Hands clasped in prayer already!

The tactics for last night were incredible. We started the game leading, so pick a 5-man midfield, keep it tight, and catch them on the break. But no, Martinez chooses to pick his suicide 4-3-3 formation, never learning from the away games at Southampton, Hull and Stoke etc, and give Kyiv all the space they needed to run through our midfield and down the flanks.

And if there was ever a game to play the passing game and keep ball, this was it... but amazingly this did not happen, And Kiev were not that good, they were given the game. If ever there was a match that showed that Martinez is out of his depth and lacking in any common sense this was it.

And no one can tell me Alcaraz is a better option than Distin or even Hibbert being moved inside. He is horrendous and causes panic in the defence every time he plays.

I canÂ’t see us beating QPR with Martinez in charge as he hasnÂ’t a clue and I donÂ’t think we will be motivated enough. We need a sensible 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 formation and we need a disciplined performance. Something that wonÂ’t happen with Martinez in charge.

And with no more ‘Gimme' games left like Newcastle we are nowhere near clear of danger in the Premier League.

Do you really believe that Everton is the club for trainee managers? You say you'd 'love to see him turn it round' as though the mess was of someone else's making. And then you go on about his learning lessons.

This is Everton we are talking about, mate, not bloody Wigan!

Robles

Coleman
Stones
Jagielka
Garbutt

Lennon
Gibson
McCarthy
Baines

Osman
Lukaku

Play that side we win going away, and with real strength coming off the bench, but of course he won’t, football genius my arse!

If the manager stays, players will leave and average players come in. The same model at Wigan and they will be playing in the third tier next season. Your call, Mr Chairman!

In fact, with hindsight, even your low opinion of him has turned out to be optimistic. I know for a fact you don't take any joy from this. Usually in football a manager is safe up to the point the fans turn on the board.

Kenwright out!

It is described as an excessive stylish and surreal take on the genre, it has two actors called Alcaraz and another called Martinez "El Borrado" which apparently means The Eraser. Is there no escape from Alcaraz?

I used to have visions of a red-haired cowboy named Dave who would moysie around.

3 games in 7 days proved to be too much for Alcaraz but others were half asleep at vital times. As Jags said later, "We were not good enough."

Sorry but what planet are you living on? He had the right idea?? His gameplan was shocking and the team was completely unprepared, and his boys Alcaraz and Barry were to blame time and time again.

We were losing 4-1 for most of the match. Our second goal came in garbage time, and their goal count of 5 really could and should have been much more.

All season he’s had the wrong idea, he’s a clown. Martinez must not be allowed to continue as manager after this season.

The corners have in the main deteriorated but perhaps it's all dead-ball situations even free-kicks because Baines for example was once a expert and whipping the ball up and over the wall from free-kicks, can anyone tell me the last time Leighton Baines even as much as hit the target with a free-kick let alone scored??

Is this also down to being out of practice? It's well known Martinez doesn't work on set-pieces, anyone who has read players interviews or extracts from Osman's book tells you that.

Apparently Osman questioned coach Graeme Jones about why the players no longer worked on dead-ball situations such as corners? Jones's answer was that you don't score many goals from them to make them worthwhile wasting time on in training.

At the end there was only 2 goals in it but our general performance didn't merit a victory. Why single out Alcaraz and Barry when Naismith, the fullbacks and others were not tracking back, not following their man and not stopping crosses? We were poor all over the pitch and in the modern game the defending starts high up.

After listening to the rubbish spouted by my old hero Peter Reid, I wouldn't call Martinez a clown. In fact, I've never felt superior enough to call anyone a clown.

As the manager, he is responsible for our lowly league position and where things will go from here is anyone's guess. The players looked cheesed off and weary the other day and I only hope we get things together before the QPR game. We're out of Europa now so forget it. Things didn't go right so what. It's not the end of the world. The sun is shining outside and I'm about to enjoy a cup of tea and scrambled eggs on toast. Cheers.

I'd absolutely love Jurgen Klinsmann, that would be a dream for me and he would attract players from all over being the famous name he is. Sadly I don't see it ever happening, I don't see him leaving the Hollywood lifestyle over there to come to a club financially restricted with no European football and no state-of-the-art stadium.

Laudrup? For me, I'm pulled both ways on that one to be honest. I think he could be a bit similar to Martinez in that he likes this slow build up and seems to have his philosophy that he will be rigid on. I also think he's a bit of a short termer. I know he won a cup with Swansea but hey we have already made that mistake haven't we?

I'm not sure who the next man will be, I just hope Kenwright will be bold and ambitious and attempt to force this club out of the doldrums it's in at present, don't allow it to fester on and on for 6 or 12 more months.

Thank god for ToffeeWeb is all I can say.

Klinsmann & Klopp are fantasy land.

Unfortunately, with this board, think small.

We all have our views. No doubt many will disagree but I think it's a possibility Lennon could be a good fit.

He's managed a big club, European experience at the sharp end, worked to a budget and his sides have a toughness and are organised. The latter should be standard. Plus he has personality, character and could handle the job.

However, with 4 goals in a two-leg tie, including two away goals, I would not expect to lose, and as a team – we lost. The fault lies with both the players and the manager but I do believe the manager's personality is having a huge detrimental effect on the players' drive, notwithstanding team choice and tactics – all of which exacerbate each other.

Personally, I cannot make my mind up about RM. Right now, I do think he is best gone from our club but I am not sure we will not see a different RM sometime, somewhere in the future and we might be wishing that was with us. I think many of the players are maybe intimidated by a control-freak personality which we do not see, and I speak from experience when I say that some outwardly charming and charismatic personalities can hide a quite intimidating dark side.

Some strong personalities will stand up to, and confront that, only to find themselves sidelined – I give you Eto'o, Distin, Pienaar and any others you might care to think of including backroom staff, physios etc.

I think this may actually be the root of the problem and what actually leads to the evident obstinacy we see. Think about that.

Those who feel comment should be restricted to praise of the board, manager and players (it's CLAIMED elsewhere that over 90% of Evertonians are happy !!!!) should find a less permissive outlet... whilst those remaining continue to study the league table!

Now there's a fecking surprise for you!

"Do you really believe that Everton is the club for trainee managers?" – True, and last season I was convinced we had found the right man. Some harsh lessons 'learned' with Wigan, but also some success and a lot of potential.

I'm now coming to realise he does not seem to have learned those harsh lessons from Wigan and I can see why many are now comparing us to them. It does appear our defensive solidity was more down to what Moyes ingrained in our back four than anything Martinez introduced.

I'm not suggesting these problems are not of his own making, from the poor pre-season to the rigid possession tactics and failure to organise a solid defence. I accept all of these things, I wish he would too! That does not stop me from having brought into his philosophy (call it sales patter if you like) for the future.

I WOULD love to see him adapt and succeed. Not so I could personally feel vindicated for my faith, but because that would be best for EFC. Do I still have faith that he can change? At the moment I have gone from religious fanatic to agnostic. Atheism is only a small step away!

Seriously though it's all hindsight but you do wonder what Ralf Rangnick or Victor Perreira of Porto would maybe have done to differently if given the chance when interviewed to become our next manager.

As we say it's totally 'if's, 'but's and 'maybe's but you can't help wonder if things may have been different.

Certainly there are times when his eyes darken in the manner of a Reptilian Shape-shifter and I'll bet Mr Murray got out of Finch Farm in a hurry.

Yes, his refusal to budge has almost certainly cost us points but my main problem has always been his insistence on Premier League experience before form and ability. This causes players like Howard and Barry to walk back in even when their replacements are doing well.

It also limits permanent signings from abroad and gives no chance to promising youngsters.

Personally I would have got rid when he said he was carrying on with the slow-motion tippy tappy stuff but BK will probably hang on for a while.

The only question is whether the players will try to get rid of him in summer and whether BK will ignore them. There's a hell of a lot at stake.