Pienaar is the latest hamstring casualty

27/07/2015  70 Comments  [Jump to last]
South African ruled out of the season opener
Steven Pienaar has suffered a hamstring injury and will miss the rest of the pre-season programme and the start of the season, Roberto Martinez has confirmed.

The veteran midfielder suffered the injury in training on Saturday and will be further assessed by the club's medical team in the coming days to determine the severity of the damage.

Pienaar had been hoping for better luck with injuries after he made just 11 appearances last season because of a succession of injury problems.

His unique skills made him a key player in Martinez's squad but he has now been ruled out of the season opener against Watford on 8th August.  


Reader Comments (70)

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Jim Bennings
1 Posted 26/07/2015 at 15:35:59
I have loved Pienaar but I said 12 months ago and again at the start of the year and I'm saying it again now..

What really is the point in blind hope on a player much like Gibson that will never offer anything like they once did?

Kelvin Thomas
2 Posted 26/07/2015 at 15:50:21
As I've stated several times, No 10 isn't our priority. Further proof that Stevie P is seriously struggling for fitness. LM is a priority!

Ray Roche
3 Posted 26/07/2015 at 15:52:40
No, Kelvin, a real medical/training staff are the priority. We might steer clear of hamstring problems then.
Colin Glassar
4 Posted 26/07/2015 at 15:53:15
His future at the club must be in doubt after so many injuries. When do you call it a day?
Kelvin Thomas
5 Posted 26/07/2015 at 15:56:47
Totally get your point, Ray.

In Steven Pienaar's case its one injury after the other. I believe we should keep hold of him but we can't have another season of hoping that Ross, Naisy, Ossie or Kone will be able to do a job there!

Ray Roche
6 Posted 26/07/2015 at 16:02:44
I'm afraid it's all down to Martinez bringing his lackies in instead of keeping a professional and respected medical team here.
Clive Rogers
7 Posted 26/07/2015 at 16:06:43
Predictable. His body is past it unfortunately.
Kelvin Thomas
8 Posted 26/07/2015 at 16:05:46
No doubt RM has pushed players' returns which backfired a few times last year. This is due to a lack if options/depth more than our medical team purposefully injuring our own playing staff.
John Hughes
9 Posted 26/07/2015 at 16:13:59
It's time the club had training AND medical staff who tell Roberto Martinez how it is, not what he wants hear, it seems the medical staff are overruled or are they all YES-men?
Hugh Jenkins
11 Posted 26/07/2015 at 17:22:35
With the inordinate number of this type of injury that our players seem more prone to than those of other clubs, I ask myself: "Is there something lacking in our training methods, diet, rest periods etc... or, are we overworking them on certain exercises more so than other teams do? Clearly, there is something radically wrong and we need to address it sooner rather than later.
Phil Hoyle
12 Posted 26/07/2015 at 17:26:56
At what point is there some individual accountability from the players? You get a seasoned 33 year old professional who should know how to keep fit.

Like them of loathe them but look at some of the professionals that have played late into their careers for us...

- David Weir
- Richard Gough
- Phil Neville
- Nigel Martyn

All defenders (GK exception) but looked after themselves to have a longer career.

All too easy to blame someone else.

Denis Richardson
13 Posted 26/07/2015 at 18:03:24
Phil 11 - please read the article in the link below..

Knackered

Bobby Thomas
14 Posted 26/07/2015 at 18:16:09
Phil #11

Richard Gough, after a superb first season, barely made double figures in appearances the next.

Stephen Brown
15 Posted 26/07/2015 at 18:26:01
He was 48!!
Phil Hoyle
16 Posted 26/07/2015 at 18:53:00
@Denis #11

Great article, really good read.

I am just fed up with the negativity about every time someone gets injured. It's interesting for me as looking at the recent Sterling transfer the players hold all the power but take some accountability.

Paul Kossoff
17 Posted 26/07/2015 at 18:59:36
Phil 11, you are so right. Players should know what to do as far as keeping fit goes.

I played in the Isle of Man leagues for 10 years and never had a hamstring once, let alone any major injuries. I knew what to do as far as training went.

One exercise good for the hammies was just walking in thigh deep sea, left me with lovely legs, but sadly crabs too.

Duncan McDine
18 Posted 26/07/2015 at 18:59:47
I have to admit that I've previously always seen injuries as bad luck, but this is getting a bit ridiculous now. Neither Besic or Pienaar would be the 'sprinter' types that are prone to hammies (Gerard obviously is) so I have to question the training methods.
Harold Matthews
19 Posted 26/07/2015 at 18:55:45
I don't get it. He's only 33. £3M a year for sitting in the sick bay and another year to go. How do these lads get such long contracts?
Phil Hoyle
20 Posted 26/07/2015 at 19:28:37
So in 3 weeks Gerard has a hamstring issue and we blame Martinez... wow!
Jay Harris
21 Posted 26/07/2015 at 19:30:24
This says it all about the increase in hamstring injuries since Martinez arrived:
Donachie isn’t the only member of the Everton backroom staff to have moved on to pastures new since the successes of Martinez’s first season, when Everton finished fifth and scored their record points total. Fitness and conditioning specialist Steve Tashjian left in the summer, following his colleague Dave Billows who had left on Martinez’s arrival at the club in 2013.

Billows left to take over as head of fitness at Newcastle and Tashjian to take up the post of High Performance Director at MLS side Columbus Crew. Both boasted impressive CVs and were integral to the excellent fitness levels which characterised the latter phase of the Moyes era at Everton.

Billows received high praise from cruiserweight fighter and Everton fanatic Tony Bellew, who claimed that he was "the best in the business". Perhaps more tellingly, Bellew added that "a lot of the lads at Everton really miss him as well."

It’s fair to say that Billows’ philosophy on fitness for elite athletes differed from Martinez's; according to the Newcastle Chronicle, one of Billows’ favourite sessions involved wheel[ing] out "the stairs". They sound like nothing much but the metal contraption – with a 30-degree ramp and twelve 24-inch steps – was a way to increase acceleration and power. Players would sprint up the ramp half a dozen times and then hop down the stairs. The idea was to test muscles and joints at a key point during pre-season. It seemed to work.

Gavin Johnson
22 Posted 26/07/2015 at 19:38:34
Can't we do the decent thing all round and release him from his contract?!
Dave Ganley
23 Posted 26/07/2015 at 19:34:39
Way too many soft tissue injuries over the last 18 months for it to be a coincidence. The training routines/players not being fit enough really needs to be looked at.

Everyone could see the players not being fit enough last season and everyone who has competed at any level of sport knows that when you are not fit then you are much more susceptible to these kind of injuries.

It appears that more of the same is in store this season.

Tom Bowers
24 Posted 26/07/2015 at 19:41:54
The guy is 33. How much can he possibly contribute as a midfielder except 20 minutes near the end of a game?

He was excellent first time around but has been out too much since coming back.
Pete North
25 Posted 26/07/2015 at 19:07:05
Thanks, Denis (#11) for pointing us to this illuminating article. So now we have Pienaar, Deulofeu and possibly Hibbert out with hamstring injuries during pre-season. Too much of a co-incidence. Management is not learning from last season's mistakes.

Similar problem with player recruitment. The most overpriced players on the market are those who have figured in the Premier League. So what have Everton done since 2013? Signed 13 current or former Premier League players plus Besic and McGeady (whilst forgetting to find a quality replacement for Distin).

For me, the real issue is amateurish management. Pienaar is probably just the latest victim.

Sam Hoare
26 Posted 26/07/2015 at 20:03:38
Such a shame as we badly need players with his touch and intelligence.
Dick Fearon
27 Posted 26/07/2015 at 21:14:20
Amidst his usual outpouring of hogwash, perhaps Roberto could include a short sensible explanation, or at least his own version, of why we suffer so many hammy problems?

Not to much to ask, eh?

Eddie Dunn
28 Posted 26/07/2015 at 21:17:31
Are these "hammies" a result of the new pitches, with their synthetic mixes combined with real grass? They have an underlay/mesh beneath the surface... so could this be causing the studs/blades to snag, putting extra strain on the hamstring.

Or could it be that Pienaar has damaged himself with his creative attempts to gain free-kicks? I had forgotten just how regular and annoying they were!
Nick Armitage
29 Posted 26/07/2015 at 21:31:06
I seem to remember a similar number on the treatment table under Moyes but soft tissue injuries and a habit of conceding late goals does seem to point to a lack of conditioning and fitness.

Whatever the root cause, I simply don't want Martinez at the club for a minute longer.

James Power
30 Posted 26/07/2015 at 23:24:11
The Billows leaving for Newcastle point was dealt with halfway through last season as was the St Rockwood article, which was interesting. However, if I remember correctly, at the time I read the posting, Newcastle were the only team with more hamstring issues than us.

God knows what is happening but the 'guys who left were great' bit was dealt with during last season and seemingly debunked as the situation was worse at the place they / he left for.

Jack Cross
31 Posted 27/07/2015 at 00:47:33
That tells you enough about Pienaar, 11 appearances last season. It as to be down to the training. I don't remember so many players under Moyes, suffering with hamstring problems. It seems to be every other week someone gets one.

Isn't RB, a trained physio?

Ant Dwyer
32 Posted 27/07/2015 at 01:31:54
I honestly think our biggest problem in regards to our hamstring problems is down to Martinez.

He's a trained physio that seems to lack the respect to listen to players, fans or / most probably physios.

Look at Gerri Del Boy the other day, he spent 25 mins walking round holding his hamstring, stays on an is now on the injury list.

Need I say much more?
Tony Cheek
33 Posted 27/07/2015 at 09:10:53
The dreaded hamstrings! As far as I can remember, we have always been plagued by them, and it wasn't any better in Moyes's days. We seem to get twice as many as the other clubs. Maybe Finch Farm is cursed!
John Raftery
34 Posted 27/07/2015 at 09:26:39
I recall reading an article towards the end of last season which said that we were third in the table for muscular injuries, behind Arsenal and Manchester United.

Every club suffers from them; a recent example being Fabian Delph at United. Every player can pick up a hamstring injury but the quicker ones are more susceptible.

Resting players at the right time and taking them off as soon as the first niggle surfaces are obvious precautionary measures. The way McCarthy was allowed to stay on for 15 minutes at Wolfsburg after first indicating he had a problem was really poor.

Ray Roche
35 Posted 27/07/2015 at 10:16:34
James Power @29,

According to the current injury list for Premier League teams, we have four hamstring injuries, more than any other club. Champion boxer Tony Bellew has been full of praise for Billows fitness methods, as were other Everton players at the time Billows left, so the fact that we are still having more hamstring problems than other clubs would suggest that Billows may not have been the problem, despite what you say about NUFC and their record.

I don't recall any debunking of the Saint Rockwood article when it appeared on ToffeeWeb but I do recall Osman saying in his book, and which were reprinted in a TW thread, that the training methods Martinez had introduced were so much easier than under Moyes to such an extent that the hardest under the Martinez regime were as easy as the Friday "warm down" sessions under Moyes. Lack of fitness can lead to muscle and soft tissue injuries, as I'm sure you are aware, in much the same way as pulling out of a tackle can get you hurt.

Martinez does seem to be trying to get the players fitter for this season's start then he did last season, which was amateurish in the extreme, but shouldn't he have known about fitness levels etc before now? Should he be "learning on the hoof" as opposed to already having sufficient knowledge to prepare a Premier League club?

James, whatever the problem is at Everton, it is getting worse under Martinez than it was under Moyes, not better.

James, I'm not having a pop at you at all, maybe if you read this from TW it will help...

http://ToffeeWeb.com/season/14-15/comment/fan/29060.html

Raymond Fox
36 Posted 27/07/2015 at 11:16:39
You will be blaming Martinez for the weather next, some of you want him out and pounce on anything that's negative.

They look sharp and fit in the friendlies so far; at the start of last season, many were saying that the players were unfit, that may be true or it may not, it's not a proven fact, it's opinion!

If it was true, maybe Martinez was trying to save energy early in the season because we had a gruelling season ahead with the Europa League matches as well as the Premier League and domestic Cup fixtures!

Football is probably the hardest sport to stay injury free there is, with changing direction, sprinting from a standstill etc, you're bound to get some pulled muscles among a squad.

Older players are likely to be more susceptible as well, Pienaar has been injured more than his fair share.

Some individuals seem always to be injured, Gibson for instance, Bryan Robson from the 80-90 Man Utd team was injured most of the time, great player but injury prone, theres' many more examples.

Ray Roche
37 Posted 27/07/2015 at 11:33:57
Raymond, they may look sharp this pre season but they weren't last season, which is one of the points I was making. Anyone who watched them could see that the players were knackered after 60-70 minutes last year and, Europa League or not, they should have been ready against Leicester on the opening day, not weeks later.

Incidentally, it's pissing down here...... I wonder who's fault that is? (at one time it'd be Moyes fault)

Fraser Auld
38 Posted 27/07/2015 at 13:17:26
This injury has got nothing to do with Roberto Martinez. It has everything to do with Pienaar's body not being able to take the strain of being a Premier League player.

He's been carrying niggles for seasons and it's catching up with him. As much as I have loved his style, his body isn't capable of playing a run of games without injury.

Joe Foster
41 Posted 27/07/2015 at 14:42:43
Once they have a hamstring RM brings them in for surgery. They remove certain muscles that will only allow them to go sideways or backwards. It's a fact.
Michael Polley
42 Posted 27/07/2015 at 16:16:41
I predict another season where Pienaar is on the phsyio's table more than the pitch!
Shane Corcoran
43 Posted 27/07/2015 at 17:11:59
In fairness to Pienaar, he's done well not to have bad knee injuries with the amount of times he falls down on them.
Danny O'Neill
45 Posted 27/07/2015 at 18:01:41
Am I being too simplistic in my view that there could be a simple reason for this? Now, I caveat that I haven't backed myself up with stats here, so I am potentially hanging myself out to dry, therefore I will live with any subsequent pasting I duly receive!

In my view, the majority of hamstring injuries are occurring with wingers and/or quick players (Mirallas, Deulofeu, Pienaar... I think Coleman suffered last year too). That's normal and an occupational hazard with most players who rely on sheer pace or change of pace (in Pienaar's case). Michael Owen anyone?

We have more quicker players now than a few years ago and also, footballers are such finely tuned athletes nowadays that they are more prone to muscular pulls and strains; result, we get more hamstring injuries. Most examples presented above of those who played on to ripe old ages were defenders and goalkeepers who didn't rely on speed and pace.

Are we not trying to use any excuse to heap blame on the coaching staff and training regime, which if we are honest, not many of us truly know too much about. Just saying.

Jay Harris
47 Posted 27/07/2015 at 18:22:41
If it was just Pienaar I wouldn't blame Martinez methods but Deulofeu, Coleman, Hibbo, Mirallas and so on.

Besides hamstrings, you wouldn't get virtually the whole medical department going in protest at the new methods introduced by RM.

Alastair Donaldson
48 Posted 27/07/2015 at 18:30:38
What a shame, one of our most creative players of recent years. All went downhill when he left to join Spurs.

Still I'd hope this is the opportunity for Oviedo to start at left mid... assuming his fitness worries are behind him!!! He's earned the right to have a run at it... hopefully RM agrees.

Colin Glassar
49 Posted 27/07/2015 at 18:51:51
Joe 38, I remember reading years ago a book called 'Coma' by Michael Crichton. Do you think something creepy is going on at FF?
Darren Hind
53 Posted 27/07/2015 at 19:26:59
Raymond Fox,

As ever, when I hear people complaining about the "negativity" on a thread towards "Robbie", I check back to see if the complaint is valid. They hardly ever are; yours is no exception.

Reading through the posts, it's clear to me that although a couple hold him accountable, your hero is getting away with absolute murder. These hamstring issues are happening on his shift. Who do you think should get the blame? The club cat!

Your claim that we have looked sharp in pre-season goes an awful long way to explaining your increasingly negative expectations for next season not to mention your incessant defence of this manager ? When are you going to accept that HE, not the club cat, is responsible?

"Looked Sharp"? did you see the Asia cup games? The ease with which Arsenal brushed us aside? I've seen sharper slugs on my patio!

Paul Jeronovich
54 Posted 27/07/2015 at 19:42:40
I love Pienaar but it's time to let him go. The amount of injuries he has had over the last season is on a par with Gibson.
Paul Tran
55 Posted 27/07/2015 at 19:48:00
Is this more of Martinez's fitness mismanagement, or is it his mistaken persistence in a player who's been like a snapped elastic band for the last two years?

Either way, it's not good. He's got to start looking forward rather than backwards.

Bill Farmer
56 Posted 27/07/2015 at 19:53:10
Much used to be made of the fact that Roberto was a qualified physio. Now he seems to be taking the flak for all these hamstring injuries.

I think we should judge him on his team's results rather than the sick note quotient, don't you? After all he hasn't got so many stars that he can be blase about injuries, has he?

Jim Knightley
57 Posted 27/07/2015 at 20:05:55
Darren - if you don't think that there is some over exaggeration going on, in terms of the negativity directed towards Martinez, then check out some of the transfer threads. The Shaqiri one in particular includes some of the most ridiculous I've read on ToffeeWeb, which stink of an unrelenting desire to criticise the manager irrespective of scenario.

I'd also back Raymond's claim that we looked sharper than last season. I predicted before a ball was kicked last season that we didn't look fit enough, and would drop significant points during our first few fixtures as a result. I think we are better this season, but I still do not feel that the squad will be as fit as it was during Moyes's tenure. It would be a shame if that is the case as I think we need to be 100% fit to play an effective pressing game and to improve our defence.

The hamstring injuries are a problem, although their concentration among wingers is hardly surprising. We should also put them into context during a pre-season where players across clubs around the country will pick up grade 1 hamstring injuries because of overuse. This happens season-in, season-out, and will be especially relevant in a truncated pre-season period because of an amended seasonal calendar. Players need to get fit quickly, and are customarily overworked. Hence the numerous anecdotes about players dreading pre-season and the vomiting stories.

However, we have also been fourth in 2013-14 for days lost to injuries (albeit concentrated on a select few injury prone players) and third last season. We might not be the worst in the league, but we are at the wrong end. However, that is not particularly surprising in view of the purchases of the likes of Gibson, Alcaraz and Kone, whilst we also have several older players in our squad. If we buy injury-prone players then our total injuries stats will get worse.

I think this is something which Martinez should look at, although I think sometimes it is about the player rather than the system. I think players like Deulofeu and Mirallas will unfortunately pick up hamstring injuries, irrespective of the conditioning and treatment they receive. But when we've got a wide spread, which a recent post (by Denis perhaps?) illustrated, we need to be wary.

I would also agree with the argument that Martinez rushes players back too soon. Unless we are playing in a final or semi-final, then we should not be taking risks. He has introduced Mirallas, Barkley and McCarthy back very quickly after injury in the past, and I do not feel that it is a productive tactic. Rushing back players quickly will also increase the chances of hamstring injury, especially if they have been out for a long time and their muscles are more vulnerable to overuse.

However, I would be happy for the players to sometimes speak their mind too, rather than just listening to the physios. Robben is famous for his desire to play when only 100%, which brought him into conflict with Mourinho, but sometimes a player is in the best position to understand his own body.

I think it will be interesting to see what happens during the season proper, and where we finish on the Injury league table. I think drawing attention to these kinds of trends is always a good idea however, because it's something that should be the subject of public discussion, especially when that discussion might make its way into the press.

It is notable, however, that Martinez's Wigan finished bottom of the injury table (ie, with the least injuries in the league) in 2009-10 and 2010-11. They then finished third from bottom in 2011-12. They did however finish third from the top in 2012-13, illustrating a rapid increase in injuries, even though their general level of injuries was about the best in the league for a four-year period under Martinez.

It seems possible then that it is perhaps the physios, the nature of the players, or a combination of both, which may be to blame.

Joe Foster
58 Posted 27/07/2015 at 20:22:43
Defo, Colin, it's got 'conspiracy' written all over it.
Ian Bennett
59 Posted 27/07/2015 at 20:32:30
A bad decision to commit ~£14m odd on a player with best years behind him.

On his day he is most creative player I've ever seen in a blue shirt. But, he along with Kone, Gibson, Mcgeady, Hibbert, is why the likes of Stoke and West Ham seem to be leaving us behind in the transfer market.

Clear the deadwood out and get some ambition. Give a reason for our coveted players to stay.

Darren Hind
60 Posted 27/07/2015 at 20:46:30
Sorry Jim, but I remember being slaughtered on here last summer, for simply stating the blindingly obvious. I knew we were not prepared and many posters -- you amongst them -- defended Martinez to the hilt. We'll it's happening again. We already have three sicknotes.

And, yes, I do think there is an over exaggeration of criticism of Martinez, I've now lost count of the number of threads where I have asked the person whose making these "negative" claims to point to the posts they are referring to. They never do. Its become the first line of defence. They can't answer the criticism so the scream "NEGATIVITY"!

Martinez as been as poor as its possible to be for a year and you think criticism is ridiculous?

Sorry but claims like "we have looked sharp" this pre-season are the really ridiculous posts. Beating the mighty Jambos may have you all excited, but most people would have seen how easily we were beaten by Arsenal, they may not be worried about the four goals we conceded, but they will be worried sick about the number of times they carved our defence open.
It could have been easily double figures... yet you and Ray Fox think we looked sharp ?

Whats it gonna take?

Trevor Peers
61 Posted 27/07/2015 at 21:06:58
Pienaar of 4 years ago would be missed for sure, but he is well past his best and should've been replaced. I notice Stoke, one of our rivals, signed an attacking midfielder today from Barca on a free.

One aspect of our game is very worrying: all the creative options are coming down the wings, the problem of an attacking CM has not been addressed.

Shane Corcoran
62 Posted 27/07/2015 at 21:36:41
When did 'exaggeration' become 'over-exaggeration'?
Des Farren
63 Posted 27/07/2015 at 21:43:23
Ray @3. A real medical/training staff is a priority.
Ray again @6. All down to Martinez bringing in his lackies.

See where you are coming from.
Who are these incompetents/unqualified you are referring to?

Bob Parrington
65 Posted 27/07/2015 at 22:10:52
The question, as always, is this: Is the incidence of hammies due to the pre-season training regime or something else?

The break between seasons seems to be too short and the human body might only be able to take just so much. Rather than do the simple thing like blaming RM perhaps, we should be looking more deeply at this subject. This requires some real study IMO.

My daughter, in Australia, is a PhD in Biomechanics and has worked with Aussie rules teams in solving issues. Surely, you have the opportunity in UK to fund a good PhD student to look at this as his or her major thesis?
COYB

Raymond Fox
66 Posted 27/07/2015 at 22:18:17
So we didn't get hamstring injuries during the Moyes reign?
That's not what my recollections are!

Darren, some of us like to give the counter arguments to yours and some others persistent criticism, there's a few good ones in this thread.

Your throwing a red herring out again saying I don't give the reasons for my support, I always say why in that instant I think the criticism is not deserved.

What's the saying, where all think alike, no one thinks very much.

Brian Wilkinson
67 Posted 27/07/2015 at 22:25:09
United must be shitting themselves when Rooney plays in Dunc's testimonial, with our hamstring track record.

Has any other club ever had as many hamstring injuries as Everton have?

Ray Roche
68 Posted 27/07/2015 at 22:40:15
Des, I realise that all new managers like to bring their own people in when they take over at a new club, despite the merits of the previous incumbents. This has happened when Martinez took over. Nothing unusual with that.

However, when there is an increase in a particular injury, as we see now with the glut of hamstring problems, do you not think that there might be a link? When highly regarded and respected medical staff are dispensed with and standards and fitness levels appear to drop, does that not concern you? It does me.

Think back to when Moyes was here and the dogs abuse Round took. People asking what his role was, apart from spending 10 minutes with a flip chart before sending a sub on. It's not just Martinez that has taken this sort of criticism.

Although I do get the impression that Martinez and his staff are not that close, hence the comments that he rarely talks to them during a game, nor them with him.

Did you notice Deulofeu clutching his hamstring for some time without being subbed? Or McCarthy being kept on last season (Newcastle?) when he clearly was not fit, resulting in a longer injury than was necessary. Something doesn't look right to me.

Jim Knightley
69 Posted 27/07/2015 at 22:47:05
Darren -- what bullshit are you posting?! Seriously? I wrote several comments before the season started last year criticising the level of fitness, predicting that it would cost us at the end of games, and that we would start the season poorly. I was widely criticised for doing so, at a time of acclaim for Martinez. But you claim that I defended Martinez to the hilt?

You are simply lying Darren, or you were not reading my comments during the period, but for some reason feel that it is an appropriate to represent a false opinion. It's pathetic. So please Darren - provide me with evidence of your concerns about Martinez from pre-season?

Here by the way is mine: The Legacy of Pre-Season

And Darren -- again, I made two detailed replies specifically referring to negative posts... And guess what? I replied specifically to you in one! And you state posters never show you evidence? You are just a liar Darren. And it's pathetic. Does it make you feel big attacking people based on fallacious assumptions?

Here you go -- this is a copy and paste from Lyndon's thread:

"There are people on here who will always critique, always moan, and then go quiet when things are going better. There is nothing brave or bold about it, and it serves no purpose. The 'perfect mix' article was full of them, including one serial offender who claimed we could no longer compete with Stoke and Palace (and who luckily went quiet after I and others replied directly to it). It's not debate, it's simply throwing misinformed comments around without good reason."

And Darren -- this is not about negativity, it's about unnecessary negativity. That's the point of this thread. If we play badly in a match, and Martinez makes mistakes, he will rightly be criticised. He has been, and I do not know of any posters on here who represent the blind loyalty you refer to. Who are they? They've not been present in the threads I've been reading. But what's the point in jumping on everything Martinez has said, and every story, to have a go? For example, these are some recent examples from two Shaqiri threads:

'If some of these quality players from Europe prefer to go to clubs like Stoke, Palace (?), Newcastle for God's sake, and West Ham, it says a great deal about how far our profile has fallen and perhaps what a poor 'draw' Martinez is as a potential manager for some of these guys.'

'If RM's past transfer history is anything to go on, our so-called Number 10 will probably be Shaun Maloney.'

'To Stoke for 㾸m – watch the shit-house of a board dive for cover....
I can hear it now: "We, errr... tried to sign him but he had a dodgy ankle 12 years ago."

Just shows how low we've sunk that we can't compete with Stoke, ffs.'

'...it says a lot when Stoke City are buying players of his quality and we are not at the races. I would have loved to have seen this lad at Goodison but as always we seem to end up with the cast-offs and players with potential or those players whose clubs will accept the fees on the drip over longer periods of time. It's not the end of the world but it sort of highlights where we as a club truly are in the modern Premier League.'

'We are getting outbid by West Ham, Stoke, and Crystal Palace. We cannot rely on players choosing us because of reputation either (as a lot of players outside of Britain haven't heard of us and treat us as a 2nd or 3rd tier club).

We cannot offer European soccer now either.

And we are not going to throw money to players to 'convince' them to join.

As long as BK is in charge we are heading south every year.'

This is just a selection -- these posters in general take press bullshit, ie, our interest in Shaqiri, to criticise the club and Martinez. It does not matter 1) if we are actually interested 2) or that Shaqiri is not the player we need, because he plays for himself and holds onto the ball for too long, just like most of our attacking midfielders. He is not a creative player. We were probably never interested. But invented press stories are used to have a go anyway.

Criticism is good -- unnecessary negativity isn't. I don't know what good the posters think it is doing? There is not an Everton fan on here that was happy with what happened last season. But some will represent that with reason, and in articles purposely dealing with tactics etc. Others will have a go each and every time, irrespective of article and story, and turn the thread into an argument about something often unrelated to the original story. This is not fun, or good debate. It's pointless and insistent negativity, that resembles a child throwing their toys out of their pram at points.'

Are quotes evidence enough for you? Or are you going to ignore them too?

And for your information - if you had read my comments throughout the year, you would have seen criticism of Martinez from pre-season onwards. I do not believe he is the manager to take us forward, and I feel that his tactical approach is flawed. But guess what? He is our manager, and I'm going to support him at the beginning of this season, because this season may be different. I'm not going to use every opportunity to criticise him. Plenty of managers come back from poor times, and plenty of managers prove people wrong.

Whilst I do not feel that Martinez will take us to where we can get to, he does have positives, and I'm not arrogant enough to think I may not be proved wrong. That's why I will give him the benefit of the doubt, until/unless he proves again that he is not the right man for Everton. I'm definitely not going to lie and embellish on a supporter's forum. It's exactly the conduct of posters like you that make me want to quit ToffeeWeb.

Ray Roche
70 Posted 27/07/2015 at 22:50:46
Jim, whatever you do, don't quit TW. Sensible argument and debate is needed. You often provide it.
David Greenwood
71 Posted 27/07/2015 at 23:06:06
Well said Jim. And to add to that, If SAF, Guardiola were in charge, would we still be signing free transfers, loan deals, selling our best player to Chelsea? Yes we would.

There are lots of things that RM has got wrong. We all know that but the fans constantly whinging at Bobby are missing the point altogether.

God knows he had a nightmare in his second season, let's hope he puts them right this season. It still won't solve anything though until their is change at boardroom level.

Jim Knightley
72 Posted 27/07/2015 at 23:06:34
Cheers Ray. The problem is that I'm too passionate about Everton, and too easily irritated, so I end up writing too many replies responding to exaggerated or unnecessary posts, and too little time engaging in enjoyable debate. As great as ToffeeWeb is there comes a time when it's not worth the irritation, and when it's not worth dealing with people like Darren Hind, especially when arguments like his descends into lie and fiction.

And I've got to the point now when I know that looking at certain news items, even ones dealing with press bullshit like the Shaqiri story, will just be used to criticise Martinez. I feel that comments section becomes something I dread. And to be fair the same happened with Moyes too. And it annoys me too much, because it's not only unnecessary, but it's plan stupid. I don't think that there is an Everton fan on here who was happy with what happened last season. But some can represent it with tact and show some patience, and others will use every opportunity to shout and scream, and insult those who show restraint.

Ian Smitham
73 Posted 27/07/2015 at 23:28:27
Jim, I enjoy your contributions, thank you. My only possible criticism is of the comments you make in the first line of your last posting:

You say you are "too passionate about Everton"

Top man and stick with it on here.

Jim Jennings
74 Posted 28/07/2015 at 00:19:24
Jim,

ToffeeWeb would be a poorer place without your contribution.

Steve Cotton
75 Posted 28/07/2015 at 00:27:09
How come we have got 3 wingers down already with hamstring problems? And where is Gibson???
James Flynn
77 Posted 28/07/2015 at 01:12:28
Jim (63) - What's between to ToffeeWebers is for me to enjoy reading.

With that: "dealing with people like Darren Hind, especially when arguments like his descends into lie and fiction."

Been reading him and you for some time now. Like you, he presents, and holds, a position. Can't recall a lie or fiction in any of it.

Calm down.

Darryl Ritchie
78 Posted 28/07/2015 at 03:41:51
I've got a question. Was there ever a match, where every Everton player was available for selection? A game with no one sidelined by injury.

I'm a newby, but since Ive been an Evertonian, someone has always been receiving treatment. So...an honest question that a TWer with more longevity might have an answer to.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
79 Posted 28/07/2015 at 05:41:25
Darren, we all know Arsenal tore us apart. Feeling the need to remind us of this in every post is the kind of repetitive negativity Lyndon wrote about, especially as you refuse to acknowledge that we did indeed look sharp in the other games. It's called balance.

Your posts on this thread are coming very close to a line where we will take action to curb the acidic tone in which you are hammering home your point repeatedly. Please consider this before replying.

Darren Hind
81 Posted 28/07/2015 at 07:02:38
Michael

I did not come on here complaining about a poor pre season. I have deliberately pulled back from commenting on it this time, I responded to a claim that we have looked sharp this pre season. I saw the Asia cup and so did you. You will know that the claim is utter nonsense. it was the repeated by another poster, so I responded again. Is it really negative to refute such pie in the sky nonsense ? Are we not in danger of going from one extreme to the other ?

I also responded because a so called "positive" poster rounded on the so called "negative" for blaming Martinez for everything. Was he right ? read the posts he was referring to. There are far more people exonerating Martinez than Blaming him. This is happening with increasing regularity.

I get Lyndon's point, but some people have jumped on it and are crying foul at the slightest criticism.

Jim Knightley challenges me to prove I'm not a "liar" by "providing him with evidence of my concerns about Martinez per season" . .Thats like asking the Pope to prove he is a catholic. I submitted dozens maybe even hundreds of posts expressing my concerns.

On several occasions now, I have noticed so called positive people turning a thread negative by crying foul about negative posts when there hadnt been any. When I have asked them to point to the posts, they have been unable to do so. If Jim thinks I'm "lying". I invite him to show me a single example.

I'm fully aware that some threads are negative, but that doesnt mean they all are. Why do people bring the negativity of one thread as evidence of the negativity in a current one ? . . How many times do we refer back to the Shaqiri threads ?

There is a very clear difference between being "too passionate" (dear me) about Everton and calling people liars on an internet forum because they see things differently.

I hope you don't take action against Michael because I like the debate, but it's your site, your call.

Actually Michael. thinking about it. You wont have to take action. I'm out of these Martinez threads. I may come across as "acidic" - had to look that one up - but I would never sink to calling an individual names, However Claims like "we have looked sharp" in pre season make me crazy.

I'm sure it wasn't Lyndon's intention for things to go from one extreme to another

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