Calvert-Lewin comes of age but Everton are denied a stirring victory

When you lose/draw it's a shower of turgid, negative shite that we all had to endure rather than watch.

It's fine playing the Leicester, Bolton etc way if you've got the players to do it. Koeman put on £70 million worth of "talent" that looked as if they hadn't played football before.

Our best players were Calvert-Lewin (pennies), and Gueye (£7 mill from relegated villa).

Keane looked like a little boy lost at sea and Pickford was erratic at best with his kicking.

If Koeman was pissed off that he kept launching it long, well did he see what happened when he played it short? It just kept coming back to him.

I have never seen an Everton team play so many backwards passes in all my life as I endured last night.

Just Moyes with more money

I thought we were magnificent in the first half; Rooney and Jagielka performed with experience and maturity. Calvert-Lewin and Holgate were superb, and really caused problems for Man City. Surely Calver-Lewin's detractors will now agree with Koeman that he is indeed a deserved starter.

Tom Davies had a very difficult night, but hopefully learned a lot in tricky circumstances.

In the second half it was same old Everton, conceding too much ground until a mistake became inevitable. The only thing missing was Tim Howard flying out like Krusty the Clown with the judgement of a 3am Donald Trump Tweet, only to see the ball in the back of the net.

This group of players hardly know each other so we have to give them some space to develop. If new Everton is still behaving like old Everton in these situations six months down the line, then Koeman and his expensive squad will have no place to hide.

It was an odd performance, the back four went from the excellent to poor and back again right through the game, Gana gave away too many silly free kicks around the box, Rooney held the ball and controlled the tempo around their box very well but still made a couple of howlers. Once they gel and add a bit more power and hopefully pace up front things will start to look good.

From the starting line-up, we didn't have any under performers, which has been a problem of ours in the past, especially away from home against the top teams.

Some really positive performances last night, and Sigurdsson got some valuable minutes into his legs. He will probably be fully up to speed by the end of this week, with the 2 games we have coming up. We are just crying out for another striker now to take some pressure off Calvert-Lewin – such a shame Sandro wasn't available last night...

Pickford started to lose the plot at one point but made a great save on the ground.

Rooney quality.

We are missing players who can run at people or behind them.

Perhaps Calvert-Lewin is enough of a target man and we can get a speedy striker in.

Klaassen could take months to find the pace.

We have an array of new signings – all good. Things are finally looking up on and off the pitch. Up the Toffees.

Koeman put on £70 million worth of "talent" that looked as if they hadn't played football before. That talent, one was his first game of the season, the other new into the league. Whether they were the right subs at that point of the game has been debated, but hanging them out to dry already? Jeezus wept!!

Our best players were Calvert-Lewin (pennies), and Gueye (£7 mill from relegated villa). Agreed, but what has mentioning 'relegated Villa' got to do with it? It was a release clause. Would you have mentioned £6m from mid table Malaga for Sandro if he played last night?

Keane looked like a little boy lost at sea and Pickford was erratic at best with his kicking. Pickford's kicks, were in general, good. Keane?! You're not serious are you? Him and Jags were outstanding, as was Williams before he went off .

I'll book you in for a motivational speaking session at Goodison when the team get back from Split.

Holgate was immense and I thought bringing Sigurdsson on was a bit unwise especially lacking match fitness. A cameo maybe as we needed a winger, either Mirallas or Lookman to at least pose a few problems.

Overall it was a decent point, the pundits offering a 3-0 win to the home side. Well, of course – how do you compete with their vast riches. It's a brutal game with one missed header.

Pickford worries me with his kicking and Keane is better suited to Williams. Time to put Jags on the bench and make Rooney the captain – his passion and leadership is just what we need. Roll on Split and if we play like this, I see a few more goals. Happy Blue

The pace and movement last night was top drawer and our defending and reaction to Man City's raids and prodding and prying was a big big improvement in intensity so far this season.

I do believe Jags and Baines have raised their game with all the new blood coming in and the Koeman brothers methods and culture getting to them.

Calvert-Lewin – just magnificent to see a young athlete start to come of age. I think I counted in the first half 6 or 7 duels on the trot won against the City back three – it was a man against three boys for moments there – he will get stronger and faster too!

Klaassen's last ditch tackle on Silva late on was brilliant. I loved the Rooney effect and at 11km covered more ground than anyone on the pitch. I Gylfi minutes will help - and I thought Gana was sharper again and getting back to last years sharpness – more to come from him.

Wayne and Dom did tire in the second half and Ron brought more legs into midfield; if we could have brought on pace and power up front, that may have helped.

One other thought: Ron was not happy with the second half and he said that we launched it too much; perhaps if Lookman would have come on we could have held onto it via a few runs as City were becoming stretched too.

Loved Holgate – He had Jesus in his pocket – shame about the header assist. All-in-all, a great point – let's take that energy and confidence into Thursday!

This short-termism does my head in. And this fantasy shite about wanting to win every game, ffs. If that's the case maybe we need to move to the SPL. Not even Celtic can win all their games!

Well, City had £80 million worth of right backs.
City had £110 million worth of centre backs.
City had had about £150 million worth of attacking midfielders.
City had about £100 million worth of strikers.

Yet our £70 million of 'talent' almost won the game.

Someone last season said that TW after a match was like bi polar message board. Either extreme elation or slough of despond.

At least you can rely on some being consistent, miserable or balanced, optimistic or pessimistic, regardless of each result.

Before we played anyone decent we had fans calling Keane class and Koeman never gets anything wrong. If you like Everton playing 10 men like that I suppose its a great result. For me its awful giving the other team the incentive.

I don't hold anything against the players they follow orders but if the board cannot see we need real quality – not players who pass backward or can't take a man on, actual quality that breaks teams down and makes them leave a man or 2 in their own half worried about what we do.

Kompany run 40 yards from his own half last night with 10 mins to go. A defender in a 10 man side looking to destroy us. But hey, your a criminal if you have anything that doesn't suit trend.

Yes we all want to win every game but the negative over-reaction to the result astonishes me. We played with an entirely new "spine" from last season and they gelled so well that, but for an unfortunate cock-up, we'd have prevented one of the most attacking sides in the league from scoring. That's a fantastic achievement. Can't wait until they start to really gel.

Perfection doesn't exist but some people demand it every game. I'd love to win every game playing samba football but it will never happen.

Can we be better? Of course we can. Can we be more adventurous? Absolutely! But we are a club playing catch up after years of poor management and zero investment in the squad. Until an Usmanov comes on board we will have to build slowly just to break into the top 6. Let's be realistic about this.

And yes, I'm also tired of waiting for some silverware but I honestly feel we are now, finally, on the right track.

I guess I believe opinions and the opportunity to voice them is important, like you do, but sometimes time to think can help the process, rather than a rush to judgement all the time. It's not necessary to agree with everyone, but does it need to be extreme so often?

An aggravated example seems to be the match forum, which I tend to avoid usually.

I could do with a silverware injection too. It becomes more important with each passing year!

Before the game, these posters claimed Koeman was a coward and inept and proclaimed we were destined for a 5-0 thrashing. At no point will they accept his tactics were almost spot on, and had we gone Martinez or Holloway-esque we would have lost 5-0. When we don't lose 5-0 like they expected, and actually draw 1-1, you'd think they'd be happy given their expectations but no, we should have won 2-0 they say.

The team is still gelling, still getting to fitness, still missing some key players and has many young players (Davies, Calvert-Lewin, Holgate – all 21 or younger, against £500 million worth of world class talent) and people call Koeman a coward.

What really bugs me, is that this obsession with decreeing the manager either a genius or totally inept, always totally takes control of the debate. Little is talked about the way we actually played, what we did well and not, where we are improving and where we need to improve. It is like debating with religious or political dogmatists, boring and pointless.

Anyway, we have 3 more very tough games in the Premier League coming up but, if we get between 4 and 6 points from these games, we can be very very pleased with our start given the circumstances. Not an easy task, but how we played at Man City makes me more confident for the games at Chelsea, Spurs and Man Utd.

As for the live forum, we have 3-4 regulars who dedicate their time to ripping both team and manager to shreds before, during, and after every game whatever the result.

Do I believe in freedom of speech? Absolutely. Do I accept their inane comments? Well, they make me laugh sometimes.

At times City had an extra man around our penalty area. We didn't even leave a man up top when they had a corner.

Talk of Klaassen's timely intervention is fine but with a man down against 4 defenders and 2 defensive mids what are they doing overrunning us in the first place?

City play through teams which causes defenders to panic and creates havoc, Chelsea the same. All we seem to want to do is play around and infront of them.

16 shots on target in 5 games simply isn't good enough.

Again I understand those who feel this is possibly a bit negative but regardless of investment and the new positive outlook, we're still discussing the same type of performance, results, tactics and excuses which we did 7, 8 even 10 years ago. Our league positions and away game set up is no better now then when we were skint and taking knives to gunfights.

Still, it's a point and we move on plus I'd still rather see Holgate on the right side than Cuco.

In the pre-match thread, I predicted that ball retention would be our problem and that proved all too true in a frustrating second half. When you don't have the ball, you have to chase and it's not surprising that we looked tired toward the end – it's not a question of poor fitness.

We had persistent calls for Lookman or Mirallas to be brought on, but neither is good in ball retention. What we needed was Sandro, who has better control and the mobility to stretch their defence. Everyone is agreed that Calvert-Lewin was the standout, yet until recently many couldn't see anything in him. There is a lesson here – players need time to adjust and develop. It's way too early to write off Klaassen.

With Sigurdsson's purchase, we have the options to rotate and let players bed in and the team knit together. Meanwhile, the defence has already settled in to a very solid formation, with Pickford and Keane looking to be excellent buys. With a decent striker before the window closes, there is much to look forward to. But we have to be patient in the first half of the season, a quality not always widespread on this site.

And you have the temerity to say that I don't understand football.

Try this:

It's all opinion. If you don't agree with my summary that's fine, but as soon as you start insulting, I win, you lose.

If that is what you want to see after spending north of 𧴜 million then I suggest you go and support Bolton or Leicester.

That's how easy it is. If you're happy with that awful shite that was served up last night (and let's not forget all of our previous games this season) then more fool you.

To see Kompany (a great centre half) having to resort to pulling him down in the second half said it all for me – the young bloke is a terrific prospect and when he fills out he will shrug challenges like that off.

We are on the right track Colin – we would have drawn and lost our last two games last season instead of winning and drawing them. Ugly maybe, but three points the difference.

So, while I am waiting for for the flair football to arrive I am willing to accept that. A couple of ugly draws in the next two games would suit me fine.

They had also had a week off. We played on Thursday. The team performed well in the system the manager chose. Is the manager defence minded because he chooses not to throw caution to the wind in an away match against a team who, even when reduced to 10 men, had 5 attacking players on the pitch?

Mourinho is one of the world's best managers. He know when to defend and when to go for the kill. Conte, Championship winning manager last season, played a defensive game away to Spurs, they sneaked a win because of a goalkeeping error.

Hopefully we will see better football as the team gains confidence and familiarity. For now, I am happy that our squad has been improved and we are undefeated in 5 competitive matches, having conceded only one goal.

This was a good result but I do feel playing three at the back with two wing backs isn't a system that suits our current crop of players. Keane looks far more comfortable as a centre half rather the right side of a three where he seems to get exposed. Holgate also looks a better player as a fullback and Baines shouldn't be expected to be bombing up and down the wing.

Midfield, which a month ago seemed to be our strength, worries me. We've lost Barry and in all probability Barkley and McCarthy are on the way out of the door, Schneiderlin will be suspended and at the moment Klaassen simply isn't good. Gueye, Davies and possibly Besic will have to carry the burden for the next three matches with little reserve back up.

Calvert-Lewin showed he's more than capable of playing the Number 9 roll in the Premier League which is something I honestly didn't think he was ready for.

So 2 games 2 assists, if we'd have signed Giroud for big money and he had that stat, I'd have been happy enough.

But the positives, always the positives. Calvert-Lewin – a young lad who played a man's game. Holgate who was very good and unfortunate to be the provider of their goal (everybody made mistakes, he made one that was punished; so can't be hard on the lad). Pickford a safe pair of hands, though he doesn't like his right foot, does he. Baines and Jagielka both with decent games against top-class opposition.

Says a lot about the lad that the manager tries to give him game time every week.

What I don't enjoy is the arrogance of some on here who think that their comments are superior and indulge in a personal love-in. Colin Glassar and Chris Williams, why don't you just exchange email addresses and continue your love affair in private?

I wasn't disappointed, except maybe in thinking how much confidence a win would have given this nearly new squad. Thought Koeman got it right, and then I thought Koeman, got it wrong?

We still need more players, and although Kid Calvert did great, I also think we also still need another centre forward. Also think the quality on the ball, definitely needs to improve, but the defensive shape of the team has really started to improve.

Stones, doesn't look like he's really improved, but it was his choice to leave, even though Koeman was a great defender, and maybe he would have learned a lot more playing under Ronald? Go and bid 㿀 million for him, because I'm sure he would thrive in our new system, and we need a better ball playing centre half, if we are going to continue to play with three of them!

There are a lot of plus points, and don't forget we still have Coleman, Bolasie, Sandro to come back in. Work in progress, going in the right direction. 1-1 good result. Played 5 won 4 drawn 1 lost 0 in competitive games. COYB!

Rooney giving it out to City fans on Twitter?

Very droll.

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A fair and balanced report Lyndon, BTW.

The spine of our team is young and talented. Pickford, Keane, Davies and Calvert-Lewin. All young, English and ours. In years to come this will become our new Holy Trinity (not sure what the word is for four) and I for one am excited about all these youngsters.

ps: Chris,fancy dinner sometime? 😀😀😀

In the end I felt that his striking off the ground started to deteriorate. He was probably exhausted. Our mid field unit still do not inspire confidence at when it became a 10 v 11 game they should have got hold of the ball and made City work a lot harder to get it back.

Regarding future movements in and out of the club between now and the end of the month, Ross has no future at this stage as he is behind both Rooney and Sigurdsson in the pecking order.

We might need an Calvert-Lewin additional centre forward given the level of games we are going to have to play in the months ahead and maybe cover at centre half but other than that we should be okay.

We have to take care of Calvert-Lewin and insure that the correct balance is achieved regarding the amount of game time he gets going forward. There are not too many voices on the forum giving out about him now and the manager deserves great credit for sticking with him.

The game is about here and now, and you can't argue with the fact that we were poor in the second half against ten men and Koeman's subs were negative. When the game was there for the taking.

I was happy, in the end, with a point but felt we could have made more use of the ball to make Man City chase about, we didn't hold the ball, gave it away too easily and they just kept coming back which, to me, made it inevitable they would finally get a goal.

Rooney had a good game until he tired badly and should have been taken a lot earlier than he was, his brain was still working but his body wouldn't / couldn't do what his brain was telling it to do. Let's see what Thursday brings.

4 competitive games, 1 spawny goal, 4 points against 2 of the teams we hate to play, progress to the next part of the Europa League and halfway to the group stages, Citteh away 1-1, the team playing somewhere closer to the way the RS ONLY play against us, the 'kids' doing brilliantly, Rooney proving the naysayers wrong – as many of us here predicted, and the team only just on first name terms with each other as well. And still a Giroud, Costa, Bigladioni striker to come, as well as a Van Dijk, Thatarsenalfella, Bigladski defender.

I, for one, as well as Colin and Chris and a few others I think, will enjoy it while it's good. Sod the bad, we've had enough of it. I'll moan enough then if it happens.

Calvert-Lewin was excellent, but his dive and feigning of injury to get Walker sent off was a disgrace. Really upsetting to see an Everton player behave like that.

I don't think it is a younger generation thing - I think it is often the fans that remember the success of the 80s and forget how dire we were in the pre Moyes days. They were worse in the Moyes days and they are worse now. The chief critic of all things on this forum is a great example.

The problem, almost invariably, is an inability to represent balance and nuance. Koeman is clearly not a bad manager and he hasn't proved himself a great one either - he is somewhere in between who did more than the last (what was expected last season in the league rather than the underachivement of Martinez) and will be judged in the next two. Too often sensationalists focus on this perceived and flawed binary where things are good or bad, surpass expectations or don't meet them, but are rarely inbetween. The middle ground is cast off as expecting too little - a realistic context is rarely admitted.

We are clearly behind the top clubs- anyone who watches football enough (them and us) can see it. Bridging the gap will take time, and it will only come by investing in younger players. Having so many good talents in the youth set up and in the first team squad is incredibly encouraging. Calvert-lewin is a great example and he and others prove that we give young players a shot, even in big games. That is not true for most of the big clubs. How many had 4 players aged 21 or under in their starting line up this weekend?

The reason being he definitely checked DCL's position before deliberately smashing into his face. Not with an elbow, fair enough, but that was only because he knew that would have been a nailed on straight red. No, he tried to fake it by hitting him with his shoulder but with absolutely the same intent. Walker clearly meant to foul Calvert-Lewin by hitting him in the face and that is a definite yellow card when he had already been booked. It doesn't matter whether DCL made a meal of it or not.

Schneiderlin on the other hand won the ball from Aguero and caught him with a trailing leg. If there were any justice there would be some sort of retrospective action on the cheating of Aguero for multiple simulations that were not penalised at all in the game.

Fat chance of that.

Otamendi (I think) tried exactly the same thing on Calvert-Lewin in order to try and get him sent off too. Nothing done against City but Tom Davies booked for simulation for us.

The good news though is that we have a 20 year old striker, a World Cup winning goalscorer no less, who is actually capable of winding up the opposition to get that sort of reaction from them.

Great future for this lad.

Like many other fans, I am disappointed that we could hold on for three points, or impose ourselves with our numerical superiority.

But let's give the team a chance. The manager attempted to make offensive (not defensive) substitutions.I believe Klaassen will come good. Keane and Pickford have already settled in.

What is key is how to allow our young players (Holgate, Davies, Calvert-Lewin) the room to develop, while we strengthen the team with hopefully another forward and a left back.

If these three young players (at least them) can become regulars over this season, that itself is a big plus, especially when they form the spine of the team.

The thing that tempers the disappointment of not hanging on for the 3 points last night is the performance from DCL. As far as I'm concerned he was nothing short of brilliant - in the air, on the ground, on the ball, off the ball. Brave, strong, quick, clever - and while I believed that he would deservedly be in and around the first team this season, the quality of his all-round play last night was streets ahead of where I thought he was.

The slight parallel that Lyndon makes to Harry Kane is interesting. I remember watching Kane play in the same England juniors group that Barkley and Lundstram were in - and from those early performances I saw I thought Kane was hugely over-rated. I didn't rate him at all, and thought that Conor Wickham and Patrick Bamford offered more. Now I'd say Kane is one of the best five centre forwards in the world, and the others are struggling to be first team regulars at their clubs. Hopefully Calvert-Lewin can reach similar heights. It's still a long-shot, but if he can find ways of replicating last night's performance levels then it's not impossible.

Everton on CNN? Is Trump taking the day off? Lead story on Sky Sports too, Rooney of course features but the club gets profile too, mainly for the right reasons.

Dinner sound good, or maybe we could do lunch. We could discuss the rights and wrongs of the Theory of Inevitability!

Cheers.

I agree with you re Walker and his little look over his shoulder.

I see the the new Simulation Panel has deliberated both sendings off and have decided to take no further action in either case as there is nothing clear cut re simulation.

That's ok then!

Rooney is confounding his critics (me being one of them before he signed) and we are seeing why Calvert-Lewin is getting the nod over other youngsters. A real prospect. It's early days but get behind the team and stop being so negative.

People keep saying we have lots of new players but seven of the starting xi were here last season so there's no excuse for those seven to consistently give the ball away and misplace simple passes. We defended well and Pickford could be our best signing in years but after spending so much since he got the job, we still throw up utter shite away from home.

Gylfi is not a left winger and barely touched the ball, granted he's not fit but he's more effective through the middle. Klaassen will also come good when he gets used to the speed of the game but should be introduced to the team gradually.

The likes of Leicester, Liverpool, Bournemouth and Celtic have played at the Etihad and matched them all over the field and have consistently created chances.

We had all year to find a proper replacement for "Big Mouth" but have mostly signed Midfielders. Calvert-Lewin will develop into a top player but for all his work rate and improving power he has only got 2 goals for us.

We have lost 25 goals this season and although Rooney may get 15 or so, we desperately need a top class powerful number 9. We desperately need pace and power into the side even when Bolasie is back.

In hindsight would he have put a more attacking formation out at half time ,up the tempo and go at them ?,or is he doing a Mourhino last season, slow, uninspired seemingly ,yet effective ,strong, resolute and eventually winners
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Would Evertonians be happy with that ?
I would, but on here im not so sure.!!!

If you're happy with that awful shite that was served up last night (and lets not forget all of our previous games this season) then more fool you.

I was happy with the first half, not so much in the second. BUT City have spent more on defenders than we have on the entire team. A little bit of realism is needed right now by a few posters, including you with comments like #1. We aren't going to go to City and beat them with attacking free flowing football as they are simply better than us. Even with 10 men. I along with others can see it, some can't. And you talk about 100m, don't forget just how much surgery our team needed, 100m only got us up to par. It'll take treble that to turn us into genuine title challengers where we can spank City at their place - no matter who the manager is.

Overall I'm pleased that Koeman is giving the kids a chance despite spending millions. He hasn't done a Spurs and used the sale of one big player to buy a bunch of misfits. Very few teams will get a point at city. Yes Walker was sent off but there will always be a reason why a team has a chance. A player error, a ref error. Who cares? It's a hard place to go and a point is a good result. The team is in transition. But so far we are doing pretty well. Instead of blindly slagging people off offer suggestions. Old Harold Matthews had strong views but he'd temper criticism of one player with praise of another. I miss the likes of Harold on here.

"I have never felt important enough to call anyone a clown."

He would have known all about Calvert-Lenin as he followed the U23's avidly.

Just had another random positive thought:

Our two main substitutes cost us £64million - who would have thought it?

That said, we want top4 and / or a trophy and so we need a number 9 of top class quality, and Dominic is not that, not yet at least. So I would still like to sign a top class number 9. However, Dominic's form is such that's making me go away from wanting to sign Dembele (Celtic) or Dolberg (Ajax) as both are similar in age, and perhaps Dom's Premier League experience would actually make him be ahead of their development. Signing them would require patience, and why not persevere with Dom instead? I'd like to see Walsh identify an older player, like a Giroud or a Cavani, who can come in and show the young lads how to play as a number 9, before stepping aside in a couple of years. Obviously the older chap would need to rest and recover, and so Dominic would still get plenty of game time.

DCL and Otamendi both made a much bigger deal than was warranted from whatever contact they both received.

Aguero was caught, at speed, by Schneiderlin so it's a lot more difficult to call whether he was hurt or not.

I haven't seen a reply of Davies' "dive" but let's not make fools of ourselves.

DCL was guilty of letting on he was hurt to try to get a player sent off. If anyone thinks that's welcome in our team then that's your business. But let's call it as it happened.

Talking about negativity, Tom Davies received a fair amount of flak for a 'lacklustre' performance last night.

Football's a game of opinions and I thought that Tom had an excellent 1st half. The way he played looks like RK had instructed him to stop the runners from midfield; without a doubt Citteh cut teams to pieces when they get their passing and running game going. After a difficult first 20 mins, Tom, Snieds and Gana, totally stopped the threat of Citteh going forward.

I thought the first half was a text book away performance against a team that'll be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.

Pity about the second half but..hey ho a good away point

He was never going to have the most flashy game, as it was all about running and closing down, but I bet you Koeman was very happy with the job he did. Rooney ran 11km because he did his fair share of the running too. I would like to have seen where the stats were at when Davies was hoinked off after an hour. I bet he'd had covered more than any other player.

Perhaps a matter of style, but I would have inserted a comma after "lesson"!

Struth, I.m sure somebody will pick a hole in my previous sentence, or even in this one.

If we compare each team - player by player - EFC should at present not get anything from City. Yet we have played them under Koeman three times and taken 5 points. They have a genius as a coach and manager. Someone who in my opinion is finding out what competition is actually all about. in Spain and Germany he's had one team to worry about - Real MAdrid and refs in these countriies are terrified in the most part to give anything against these teams. Last night Walker looked for DCL and wanted to sort him out as he had given the City defenders a torrid time. The ref saw him look for DCl and then with no intention of playing the ball go for him. It was a booking and as such resulted in him being sent off. Schneiderlin on the other hand went for and won the ball. Aguerro went into pantomine mode and got him sent off.

I thought the boys were great last night. We've played 5 games to Citys 2. They last played the previous weekend, whilst we played on Thursday. We were bound to tire in the second half. in my opinion it takes 10 games before your body is up and running in the EPL. A lot of teams will get nothing at the Etihad this season. We got 4 points off them last season and we are on target to do it again.

My prediction is Guardiola will win nothing with City and will leave with his tail between his legs and go to a League where the top team has one or no rival and he will look a genius once again. His decision to get rid of Joe Hart, for instance, looks more and more ridiculous with every passing day.

Good luck to the team in Split.

Who do we have that is quicker than Calvert-Lewin at the moment? Can't think of any. Lookman perhaps over 5-10 yards but that's about it.

Pre-season was dire but last couple of games have shown us playing quite well IMO. To just dismiss that performance is a bit puzzling.

Our play was too slow and ponderous against 10 men, but we were up against the favs for the League, so let's give the team some slack. A couple more quality signings and we will have the best squad we have had for a very long time; prospects are looking up.

We need to prioritise the competitions. though. Difficult to pick and choose I know but I doubt we can finish in the top 4 this season, so I would go all out to win the Europa League. We are going to have to rotate the squad, but the danger is that with too many targets and we will do average in each of them.

Like I said before, it's a difficult decision to make!

To clear up any doubt in anyone's mind as to what Walker's intentions were see for yourself at 2:00 onwards.

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A booking in anyone's language - even Russian.

Much of their joy in the first half evolved from their left mid and at times he seemed to not react and close the space down allowing them to threaten right to the edge of the box.

Everyone has an off day and I can understand why he was subbed. Faint hints of Barkley off the ball at times in that respect .

He'll come good though - no doubt.

Instead of reading the game and picking his spots of when to close down and when to hold and close down a passing lane, he would just react and react and react to every single pass, charging at each player. What I saw yesterday at times was Davies trying to be smarter about this, decide when to charge the player with the ball and when to try to read the next move and be proactive instead of reactive. That takes time unfortunately.

Or simply you balanced out Michael's report?!

As for the overall comment, the game deserves to viewed both in isolation, especially as its the first against a very good team and as a body of work under the manager.

In isolation we played well for 45minutes and failed categorically to take advantage of a gift rarely seen away from home at a top 6 side. That is beyond dispute.

At one point City played with a back two, Fernandinho as a supplemental, nominal defensive aid.

They played so high Kompany and Otamendi were camped inside our half.

All that space and no attempt to exploit 1on1 situations with players like Lookman and Mirallas.

A point changes nothing for the team. Imagine a more measured attacking approach, the players who know they can win playing football rather than clinging on.

That brings me to the bigger picture, better players same approach. All that got us was a repeat of United away from last season. Is this progress? Not for me. We will win plenty under Koeman sure, but in the big ones that 'canny defensive approach' won't cut it.

Yeah, I know there will be people who will say I am being unfair to him – again, but I will explain why.

Those who say they'd have taken a draw before the off, are simply ignoring the situation we found ourselves in at half-time last night. A goal and a man to the good, the three points were ours to squander... and squander two of them we did.

Koeman let his players down last night. If there was ever a time to go at Man City this was it. Defensively they were all over the shop. Their goalkeeper is a poor one who doesn't have the confidence of his team mates. Their captain is a shadow of the player he was in recent seasons. John Stones is still trying to play football with players who couldn't control a bag of cement. The fact that Walker can't control a bag of cement didn't matter; he was out of the equation, which leaves the lamentable Otamendi.

Ask anyone who has even a passing interest in football to point to City's achilles heel and they will point straight at their defence.

Last night they looked even more vulnerable, They were rattled. Their composure had gone. They were angry at what they considered a real injustice. The kindest thing Koeman could have done for City is to give the defenders an easy second half, to allow them time to regroup and recover their composure. The second kindest thing he could have done was to sit back and invite City's talented superstars the opportunity to show what they can do.

He was lost last night, His limitations exposed. The Walker sending off confused him more that it confused Guardiola. His instructions were panicked and muddled. He was saying one thing and doing another. "Get it wide" he screamed to his players, but by withdrawing his wingbacks to a more orthodox full-back position, he was actually taking away our best chance of stretching City.

When we should have been squeezing the play and forcing City to work for anything they got – especially as they built from the back, we were retreating into our shell. Gana and Schneiderlin posed no threat at all, spending the entire half sitting on the toes of the back four, Initiative and possession were meekly surrendered.

Its really troubling to see young Holgate taking the blame from some quarters. That kid was exhausted. All our defenders were. The tactics employed offered them no respite. Who amongst us was actually surprised when they equalised?

Sorry. I cant for the life of me see this as a good point. Not from our second-half starting position. The players gave everything and defended stoutly... but they were let down by a manager who simply didn't know how to cope when the chips were down.

Lyndon, please give Darren a column of his own (called Hind Sight?), where he can stoke arguments with those who seek it.

Not true. I'd have taken a point before the off. AND once a man up I had more expectation of 3 points. So clearly didn't ignore the situation at half time.

I think considering we had a makeshift right wing back, a pensioner and an obese Welshman centre half, no real target man of repute, we did fucking great. Hats off to Calvert-Lewin, he had the arrogance of a striker who listens to Big Dunc, he deserves a prolonged run at number 9 in my opinion.

But I entered expecting no points at all. So, broke even at the casino. That's a species of win. Feel terrible for Holgate though. Played really solid. One mistake. But I guess one mistake is all it takes when you're playing a side like Man City.

All in all, damn entertaining for this new Toffee supporter. (And Yank, no less... Not in the face!)

Koeman screwed up, sure, but does his critics seriously think this criticism is of any use? We are all armchair generals. If anyone is playing the idea of firing Koeman, which I do not advocate until we see him no longer pushing us forward, I would recommend Tuchel.

The comparison of City to Barca and RM is a bit stretched but not that far. It's "invincible" Guardiola and his billion dollar team. His expense on defence this year is larger than most countries in the world. You don't think we're bringing a pistol to fight a machine gun?

Overall, I like our performance, not so much the tactics for second half nor losing two points. Should I go nuts over 1 out of 38 games?

Chill guys.

It didn't, in my opinion, need to be like that. We needed to continue to have an offensive threat, we needed to believe that they were rattled and frightened. Instead, we looked rattled and frightened.

The outcome, on paper, looks good. I cannot see how anyone can watch that game and believe that our tactics did not cost us a massive confidence boosting win.

I remain supportive of the coach, I still believe there is better to come. However, I will not defend what I think was a negative and fearful seeing out of the game.

A defensive masterclass in organising a team to play against what will be a high scoring opposition this season.

Carragher said it was fascinating to watch two top coaches acting and reacting to each others tactical changes. I agree, especially the "top coaches" title. In my opinion, Koeman is exactly that.

I feel for Tom Davies at the moment as he's not nailing down any position. Whereas Schneiderlin and Gana are our nailed-on defensive midfielders and I suspect Sigurdsson and Klaassen becoming our two creative midfielders, with Rooney as a roamer. It leaves Tom on the bench and our go-to man when things aren't working out.

As mentioned in some newspapers today, he seems to be off the boil in terms of fitness and in lack of clarity on where's he playing. I don't know if his confidence has taken a knock when he sees effectively 3 new Internationals coming into the squad – all vying for his stand-out role from last season.

You can not be serious. Nearly everything you've said is from a partisan perspective to defend Koeman and our dire tactics. If Pulis did this, no doubt all our fans and this nations pundits and newspapers would be up in arms. You seem to be in blind defence of certain players and staff.

For example, I believe if we all watched 7th play 3rd away in any other league and saw 7th take the lead against 10 men and surrender possession like that, we wouldn't believe it.

You go on about the money as an excuse "they've spent x amount on full backs". So what? Baines is better than all of them.

Leicester won there 2 seasons ago. There is no excuse to play that badly against ten men.

Keane and Williams who the manager bought were as bad as Jagielka in possession if not worse. Which is extremely bad for modern footballers. They never passed forward and never drew a man close before passing.

You even question someone for critiquing Keane. Like after three games he's Beckenbauer and we are mad to criticise him. He is a Man Utd reject that can't get in the worst England side in my lifetime.

Our team needs time to gel. But they need the right attitude also. Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, the teams we are trying to catch, would be disgusted with our attitude last night.

To constantly go back to the keeper in order to kick it long to a kid, against 10 men, after signing 8 or so players, regardless of the opposition, is a joke. And for fans to be happy is even worse.

An opportunity was given to us by pure luck against a good side and we didn't have the will or the belief to go and take it. Yet Leicester did. And look how that season ended for them.

But, as usual, 50% of our fans are happy with mediocre nearly-men type performances and love defending the manager. I think it makes them feel clever and grounded and "nuanced". But if you believe that's a good result, what would be a good result against 11 men?

Now it's "we're doing it the right way", develop the kids etc. We've just developed Lukaku, Deulofeu, Barkley and Stones. Where are are they now? Will they be happy with a draw at Man City? Against 11, never mind 10?

Our job is to ensure that Koeman and Everton aim high. Not to except mediocre plucky little Everton.... If not, why bother?

No way they're are both top coaches, not even on the same plane.

Judge by the clubs they've managed and the trophies they've won. Not even in the same calibre.

One lives up to the hype the other has no hype to live up to. Absolutely 'fools gold to suggest otherwise.

As is often the case you missed the point. I said that Walker's intention to injure was deliberate, which it was. I made no mention of whether that was "welcome in our team" or not; as pompous and self important a statement as "I wondered who would be the first", ffs (it isn't welcome by me, for avoidance of doubt). DCL's actions were irrelevant for me - as I said - as it was a nailed on yellow and he was already. As a point, incidentally, you can't state that there was no way to tell if Aguero was hurt or not and not have the same level of doubt about a player hit square in the face, as DCL was. Except if you want evidence for a spurious point. Second point, I never mentioned whether Aguero was hurt or not. I said he was clearly diving all night and not getting picked up on it, which he was. Lastly, it is not actually a bookable offence if a player gets hurt in a challenge, only if there was intent to injure - intent, as I have already said, which was clearly evident in Walker's second yellow in my opinion and the ref's. So whether Aguero or DCL was hurt or not is also completely irrelevant. Is that clear enough for you?

Would you be surprised I don't actually rate Koeman that highly? After the Watford game last year I was actually calling for his head. But then I grew up and realized we are not the Harlem Globetrotters of the football world and we'd need to be patient for us to even get near the top 4, let alone the title, even with the money now available to us. With or without Koeman.

I defend him as I see so many brainless comments that blame him for anything and everything as we haven't won the title 2 games into the season with expansive free flowing football that a world XI couldn't get near. Ok exaggeration but I'm sure you get the point.

He has his faults, and at times deserves criticisms, and I don't even particularly like the style of play BUT he generally gets results, which is the number 1 importance in football. Sure I would love us to play like Madrid, but we don't have the players. Nothing to do with being plucky Everton. It's reality.

His use of DCL at wing back was bizarre, bordering on dumb in the stoke game, and I said so at the time. But equally I got the logic behind the city game tactics & subs. Again, I say it as I see it.

You go on about the money as an excuse "they've spent x amount on full backs". So what? Baines is better than all of them.

I didn't 'go on' about money. All I said was that we need some perspective because City have spent more on their defenders that we have across our entire team. Is that incorrect? And I love Baines but he wouldn't get into that City team. That's those blue tinted glasses talking.

Leicester won there 2 seasons ago. There is no excuse to play that badly against ten men.

Two seasons ago. In a fluke season. How many teams outside the elite few have won there besides in recent years?

You even question someone for critiquing Keane. Like after three games he's Beckenbauer and we are mad to criticise him. He is a Man Utd reject that can't get in the worst England side in my lifetime.

Yes, because Keane has been one, if not, our best players since the first game of the season. Hanging him out to dry after an away game at City is mind boggling. Especially as I thought he had a good game. And a Man Utd reject? Is that even worth responding too? Implying he didn't make it at United as a young player means game isn't good enough for us? Please. It's daft comments like that which make me cringe at being a fellow Evertonian sometimes.

Our team needs time to gel. But they need the right attitude also. Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, the teams we are trying to catch, would be disgusted with our attitude last night.

And all those teams are better than us. Still. We've closed the gap but we aren't there yet. And are you forgetting Koemans first 2 subs against City where generally attacking subs? So therefore didn't he try and win the game and take advantage of the situation but it was the players who were not good enough to do it?

Its going to fun to see all the shite thats going to be spouted once we actually lose a game!

I'm really eager to see what we will do at Split and then at Chelsea. If we somehow survive those and put up very good attacking performances against Spurs and United, I think we can roll from there. Those will be the first 2 games our players have proper rests.

Koeman made iffy decisions but hopefully he will learn from his mistakes. Of course, unless you're telling me we have a chance to get Conte or Ancelotti or Simeone or Tuchel. To me, every decision has to be a decision aimed at making us better and at this time, I'm not sure if that option is available barring improvement via a fan-forum of tactics at Goodison LOL

I don't know if we're going to get our #9 but I dare say we can play two up top with DCL and Sandro. We have a good team for the future (and don't forget Dowell) and we should not write our team off this early of the project.

Last season we improved, albeit to a league position of where Martinez should have had us. We've now got a load of new players that Koeman wants to play his way as the others were not capable. His way is not pretty, but it's generally effective. Give me that over Martinez and his pretty football any day of the week.

It's harder than ever to break into the top 6, let alone top 4. But at least we're now trying as evidenced by the money we've spent. And people also forget this is not out final squad for the season. Yes we should have got a striker in already but we haven't and still have time to get one in. Our first xi is still behind the top 6 ad the first xi they can put out, let alone the subs they can bring on, so what exactly do people expect right now?

We also have several new first XI players who need some time for various reasons but with some of the ridiculous comments that are on here you would think we have a team of world superstars that are under performing because of the managers tactics after 2 league games, 1 competitive cup game and 2 semi preseason competitive cup games. It's bewildering.

I do think we can challenge for top 4, perhaps overly optimistic, Arsenal and Spurs don't look as dangerous, RS looks beatable, City seems like a billionaire's glasshouse but still tough to beat if they click. United is a wild card because they have 2 very good games but don't think it can get any better while Chelsea is the only team I think is really out of reach, primarily because of Conte. If we are careful not to slip up against weaker teams, we should be up there with the big boys. Still, game of small margins.

Some Everton fans are impressively delusional.

I'm encouraged more than other season in the last 20 years or so because we know we have a chance at getting quality players in who could get us into those positions we hope for. And its still early days in my mind. If we are serving up shite football, 10th in the league and no discernible progress in 6 months then fair enough Koeman will deserve every criticism he gets. Now? Its too early as I can see what he is trying to do. DCL as right wing back aside. Whether he gets there, only time will tell.

David #119. I'm happy to debate with any posters who have good arguments, which ever way they think. The keyword good. I know my views are not to everyone's tastes, but the world would be a very boring place if we all thought the same!

You have picked a good time to become an Evertonian. Welcome to our asylum.

Just as a matter of interest - why did you pick us?

Spot on Son.

Criticism on here is often greeted with an hysterical response. Say one thing and they will distort what you actually said to justify that hysteria.

Criticise what must by now be universally accepted as pug ugly football (surely ?) and you are; "blaming him for everything and anything, because we haven't won the title 2 games into the season playing expansive free flowing football football" - I visit this site virtually every day and I have never seen anybody even suggest we should be winning the title during Koemans management. NOT ONCE. . . Yet the guy making up these claims feels he is in a position to call others "brainless"

"City spent more on defenders than we have our entire team " Yeah that's a valid argument as to why we were so negative in the second half . . at least it would have been had Walker taken any part of it and Stones had not been a tactical sacrifice due to a decision that most certainly went our way. Kompany was signed years ago. So, remind me again . .who had the most expensive defenders on the pitch ?

This is the way it is Alan. There are people on here who simply cannot accept criticism of any sort. They have convinced themselves that it is "positive" to support this Zombie football. There will not be many who will come on to disprove many of the valid points you raise, so they will create points they can disprove . .Either that or they will offer the blindingly insightful "Give it a rest"

I`ll watched this thread with interest, You have raised many valid points, lets see how many can come on and tackle what you actually said, rather tackle the things they wish you had said.

'The guy', me, was implying that is what some posters think by the bull they spout. Not what was actually said. Go back to the post, read it again, put it in context and it doesn't quite have the legs you think it has.

In the last paragraph you mention, I was pointing out that City have unlimited resources hence better players, using their defence as an example vs our team. They are a better team than us as a result. Logical, no?

Second half wasn't great, no argument from me. But don't you think Koeman at least tried to be attacking in his subs to rectify a poor half? Get players on who could control possession, take the sting out of city and see the game out. It did not work but at least it was logical to me. But let's just berate him instead eh?

Made up? I don't think I have seen too many comments on here that suggest anyone is stoked, just most posters satisfied that in the context of the opposition a point is a reasonable return.

The story of the game? What I saw was a team that, even when reduced to 10 men, were clearly far better than their opponents. Sad as it is that for me was the reality.
Given the superiority of city in virtually every position a draw (which was very nearly a win) can be viewed as a decent result.

Option 1) Turn to Lookman or Mirallas and say. "Rooney's fucked. Their defence has it too easy and they are mounting attacks at will. Get out there and run them ragged."

Option 2 ) We need to stretch this game. Lets continue to play with wing backs to keep the width and replace Rooney with fresh legs.

Option 3) Let's sack this wingbacks lark. Let's take Williams off and revert to our normal narrow pattern... and to counter the lung bursting pace with which City are attacking us. Let's send on a guy who is struggling to adapt to the pace of football in this country... and the guy who hasn't kicked a competitive ball this season, that'll stop them in their tracks.

"Logical"? It was anything but.

As for the rest of your post. It's from you. Hard to take seriously.

Having said that, if we can produce a couple of moves similar to those leading to our last two premiership goals it is quite conceivable in my mind that we could come away with all 3 points.

I totally agree that he should have put either Mirralas and/or Lookman on - we were crying out for at least one outlet with pace.

Klassen, yes struggling a bit but will put in a shift and will try to link midfield and attack. Can also make a goal out of nothing, as we've seen. Close City down, deny them space. Logical to me.

Sig. Get the ball, keep hold of it, be a danger from set pieces, put a shift in. As above. Again logical to me.

Probably two if the harder worker players we had as choices to come on.

Koeman talked about the reasons afterwards which were similar to how I was thinking at the the time.

The problem I saw with miralles is he goes missing too much. Who's to say he would have done anything? As so often as a sub he doesnt. I'm not denying Sig was the wrong choice in hindsight but at the time? I was on board with it.

Lookman, I would have liked to come on but understand why he didn't. He may have made an opportunity but is just as likely to give the ball away in a dangerous area for them to break on. Like he did with Split, if I remember correctly.

There are arguments for both. Koeman took the wrong one as it didn't really work. We'll never know if the other would have. Like I say, I understand why he did what he did, just like I would have understood if he chose another option. That is the reason I don't believe he should the getting the stick he is getting from various posters. Not just you. Next match, if he fucks up and does something daft in my opinion, I'll be berating him too.

Barring a misplaced header we would have won and claiming a brilliant tactical switch. We'll, maybe not all of us 😉

If we had said striker - then it would be one of DCL, Sandro or Said Striker coming off the bench.

Ron did say he felt we were launching it too much in the second half and to a tiring DCL and Rooney. Passing holding onto the ball and stretching a 10 man team is the way to go and he e]was trying to get that passing going Barkley anyone?

Still for all the different opinions - good result - near brilliant result - team are looking fitter and sharper - bring on Split!!!

Despite filling the team with captains the mentality is still not there it seems. They looked panicky and unsure of themselves. Of course it was disappointing. But nonetheless, a point at City is no disaster and in the first half especially the team played well and showed many positives. On to the next.

I like to enjoy the forums and hearing some of the angry negative comments just makes me feel angry negative myself

Strangely enough, I'm not totally convinced by Koeman yet either and some of Darren's points do indeed have merit. However, it's far too early to early in the season to level the degree of criticism at him that Darren does. The pressure really is on Koeman to deliver this season. Let's take stock at the end of it.

The problem that I have with your posts Darren are that you sledgehammer your points and appear to be contrarian for arguments sake. You give the impression of not being willing to changing your mind under any circumstances and actually can come across as dogmatic. Have you re-read your post at #91 to see how pompous it appears?

My request to you to "Give it a rest" was not meant to be insightful by the way. It was a request. I would never dream of getting into a real debate with you as I just don't have the stamina to keep up with you! You're clearly good for ToffeeWeb as you provoke reaction!

Koeman, got it right in the first half, but I do wonder about some of his plans. Three at the back? Then surely two of them should be comfortable with the ball, which is the only way to create more movement in-front of them?

Pass backwards, pass sideways, pass back to the keeper to kick it long, will really only take you so far, but we are a work in progress, so its best to just sit back and watch?

I would have brought on Lookman, but I wouldn't have changed our formation, because until we did City were only really playing in-front of us. But it's easy watching on the telly and it's obvious that Koeman, really wants Siggy in his team.

We still need players to really push on, but it's time to stop looking at others now. It's time for Koeman, to start developing a pattern, because all the best teams concentrate on themselves first, and worry about the opposition second.

That's why I thought he got it wrong in the end the other night, but you never stop learning in this game, or you should'nt do anyway, and although something needed changing, he tried to fix something that wasn't broke (defensive shape) which makes me think he the defensive maestro, doesn't know enough about his trade!!

I'm not pompous, I just knew some posters would defend what they wouldn't defend had the opposition done it. Just like the refs hate us, the Sky 4/5/6 comments etc. that are constantly on ToffeeWeb.

Where's the evidence that Walker intended to injure DCL? Because he looked around? Because he moved his body towards him?

You say it's a nailed on yellow. Same questions as above. Why? How?

DCL's actions are irrelevant to you? That seems pretty close to welcoming feigning of injury, which you've said you don't welcome. So if he feigned injury are his action relevant to you, given that you say you don't welcome them?

You're right about whether I know if DCL was hurt or not. He may well have been but my reckoning is that the maximum pain he could have possibly endured didn't warrant his reaction, i.e. he over-reacted in order to get the player booked.

I never said being hurt was a requirement for a yellow card.

Now, I feel adequately important.

Tony 139 - best post on the thread!

The Urban Dictionary tells me that either spelling will do as both are slang. Being a shortened version of 'God's truth', 'struth' seems nearer to the original but, in truth, either will do!

And the problem I have with your posts is that you often take the time and trouble to post, but you rarely say anything.

There are several people who regularly come on here and praise Koeman to the rooftops. Not once have I heard you say to any of them "Give it a rest", or "We get it, or "Stop banging on" . .but that's because you agree with them.

You would like nothing more than to log on and see a whole stream of posters blowing smoke up Koeman's arse and mindlessly nodding in agreement to everything he says. Tough. Life's not like that. There is a growing feeling of resentment towards Koeman's negative approach to the game.

You speak about me being a "contrarian". That would suggest to me that you feel warm and safe living amongst the ranks of the "Majority" You like to see yourself as "positive" but you will dare not dream. 7th place according to you could be construed as progress.

I've got news for you Ray; Your overwhelming majority is eroding. An increasing number of fans are beginning to see through Koeman. You don't even need to venture from this thread for evidence of that. They are disillusioned by his negative tactics. Personnel may have changed, but his approach to the game hasn't. The "contrarians" are growing in number.

On the face of it, claims that this was a decent point would be fair if taken in isolation, but when you examine the reasons we didn't win, they become less so.

Contrary to what is claimed above, nobody is expecting us to win the league, at least not to my knowledge, but Evertonians should be allowed to call for a more adventurous style of play, more ambition to win a game. They should criticise a manager who tries to avoid defeat when victory is up for grabs. They are, IMO, morally obliged to do so. They have no right to see their team win every game, but the are fully entitled to expect to see them try.

Didn't Shankly say he would draw the curtains, if Everton were playing in his back garden? Obsessed the fuckin lot of us, and it hasn't even really started yet.

On the Monday game, it showed a team is in transition, players getting used to playing with new team-mates and a new goalie, in different systems, a manager in his second season with a new team, and managing a creditable draw.

And Everton weren't too shabby either.

I could see what he was trying to do. Somehow I don't think you're the only one who could see what he was trying to do but anyhow he got it wrong didn't he. He chose to use a totally unfit player over many other options.

It's ludicrous to suggest any Evertonian wants to see the manager fail. Seeing a fan having the confidence to highlight a fault is no problem at all for me I find most opinions interesting.

Jim (#127), yes made up was an exaggerated take on happy or content mate. The majority of opinions I have read are well happy with a point against 10 men. Not only that, they use the price of full backs and centre-halves to justify their points even though they think ours are great? Is Walker better than the 60 grand Coleman? I only support us to win and if Barca were down to ten men getting beat by us with 10 minutes to go I would still be gutted, fuming, deflated.

Looking for a point at Chelsea is already one fan's target. Do we ever want to beat to top 4 side away?

By the way Otamendi was lucky too - he put his hands on the referee. I didn't think you could do that.

That's as straight as I can get it. Otamendi was lucky indeed. Gana was lucky he didn't see red for persistent fouling when on a yellow.

And yes it does matter that he is a young bloke. A cunning old sod like me would have seen what was coming.

Getting on a plane now - will continue later.

Even more amazing that he didn't even pick up a yellow.

Relax, he is laying the solid foundation required.
The architectual design will follow.

I can't really talk to a keyboard any different than I can speak in a pub or face to face. I foolishly expect the same from everyone else. At the end of the day its just another take on things. Doesn't mean I refuse to agree with your next point or see you as an enemy – it's just a debate on football.

It wasn't what Koeman did on Monday that annoyed me. We really missed the pace and strength of Coleman & Bolasie. They haven't been replaced and we spent most of that game in our own half with a lack of outlet. That's what is annoying me. He's had months to plug these gaps and he hasn't.

Jeez, I must watch that City game again - I can't remember Coleman coming on! Referring to Coleman in the context of a discussion about the merits of this week's result seems irrelevant.

Arrogant because I don't agree with someone? Nonesense. That particular debate (started at #1, with me at #12) I was rebuking a pretty silly set of arguments. Silly in my eyes that is - other may think they were valid, that's up to them. I explained why I thought they were silly in my post back, if that comes across as arrogant, well, that's life. You then jump in and make it personal with no contribution to what is being discussed. Not a problem, I've been at fault like that before too, but don't expect me to welcome you with open arms. Then I treated you with the contempt I felt it deserved. Hence the grammar comments.

And in my opinion, some posters don't think things through. Whether I agree with them or not. And I won't hesitate to say it when I see it.

I welcome debate and opposing views. I've had debates with plenty of posters. Many I've walked away from smiling as I like someone who can put up a good set of arguments (Mike Gaynes and Will Mabon spring to mind recently). I may not change my mind, but it's enjoyable all the same.

Anyway time to move, others posters don't want to hear this.

PS I'm starting a '6 year contract campaign for Koeman'. I'll sign you up for support. And Darren.

You mention 3 players. Why not Aguero vs DCL? Why not Silva vs Klassen? Etc, etc. And just because Jesus didn't have a great game, and DCL had his best game for us, hardly makes them comparable in anyway. Name me one manager or fan who would rather have DCL over Jesus. Man City have a better overall first XI than us. They have a better squad that us because they have spent a fortune. Is that even debatable?

And finally, before every game against the elite clubs away from home I hope we win but I don't expect to win as I can see our team is currently not as good as theirs. It's not being defeatist. It's being a realist.

"There are several people who regularly come on here and praise Koeman to the roof tops. Not once have I heard you say to any of them "give it a rest", or "We get it, or "stop banging on" . .but that's because you agree with them"

(err , who are these people? and no, I don't agree with them. I don't comment because they don't try to ram their opinions down other peoples throats like you do!

"You would like nothing more than to log on and see a whole stream of posters blowing smoke up Koeman's arse and mindlessly nodding in agreement to everything he says. Tough. Life's not like that.

Patronising hogwash! As I've said many times before, I'm not totally convinced by Koeman yet, didn't like his public treatment of Barkley, don't like the fact that he didn't have a replacement for Lukaku lined up, was annoyed that he oversaw some really poor performances away from home last season and think that he gets his tactics wrong sometimes (which manager doesn't by the way?) However, I can't let you get away with constantly pillorying the guy when a) he steadied the ship after the debacle the season before and b) he's trying to rebuild the side. I reserve my judgement on Koeman until the end of the season. If you think I have no opinion on matters, you should read what I had to say about our previous bullshitter of a manager.

There is a growing feeling of resentment towards Koeman's negative approach to the game.

And your proof is? You have a couple of people agreeing with you on TW?

You speak about me being a "contrarian". That would suggest to me that you feel warm and safe living amongst the ranks of the "Majority". You like to see yourself as "positive" but you will dare not dream. 7th place according to you could be construed as progress

You got that one right, Darren but only if we close the gap to the Champions League places considerably over last season and remain in contention till the tail end of the season. I believe that we then need to improve again the following season. That would be progress. Rome not built in day and all that.

I've got news for you Ray; Your overwhelming majority is eroding. An increasing number of fans are beginning to see through Koeman. You don't even need to venture from this thread for evidence of that. They are disillusioned by his negative tactics. Personnel may have changed, but his approach to the game hasn't. The "contrarians" are growing in number

Again, you may be right but where's your proof? I'll bet the silent majority are prepared to give him far more time. Do you think losing the lead at Man City suddenly turned the masses over to your opinion?

I've said it before Darren that your arguments may well have some merit and at the end of the season you may be able to tell me "I told you so" but I would contend that it's far too early to know and that, far from being "free-thinking", you just love being controversial. If my being guarded on Koeman is having little of interest to say, then I'm sorry that I'm so boring. By the way, what is your opinion on anything Everton apart from Ronald Koeman?

I know you'll come back – you always do. It's your brow-beating style. However, I won't respond because you have for more energy than I do to "debate", you appear to have a closed mind on matters Koeman and probably ToffeeWeb deserves better than two individuals slagging each other off.

Ah don't worry Brent. We'll get him for 40m. Bargain with 24 goals in 80 games in a tough (?) Portuguese league. Forward problems solved. Mexican always do well over here too. Win win situation.

In a nutshell. The fantasist folk remain just so short sighted. You can bang on and on about the size of our club, our history, our fans, our stadium, you can include granddad or neighborhood or your age
if not wisdom.

But in the end, we will get to the top over 3 or 4 years if we keep spending for now but mainly for future. Seem to be.

Me...my expectations of any regular silver is when we open new stadium. And if I was Moshiri, that would be my strategy.

Until then, let's drop strategic thinking and listen to Darren et al have their daily dose of attention and rant.

Me...to come good games, chuffed to draw at City and a massive sense of optimism that lasts longer than the upset some folk seems to have had on their potty last week...and strangely, after every game we play!

Mummy tell 'em.

He clearly did not tell you to fuck off.

I have no intentions of slagging you off.

I simply pointed out that on dozens of occasions I have posted and you have tried to dismiss the posts by telling me "you are not interested"; that I should "give it a rest". That if "I want credibility (with you) I have to..."

You never say anything at all, you simply try to shut me down.

I don't say the same things, I have different points to every single game, but I can't escape the common thread through all the games (our football is rotten) – and only one person is responsible for that.

I'm not looking for your approval, Ray. Our views are diametrically opposed, difference being, I realise you are entitled to yours. I don't think I have ever responded to one of your posts before now. If I'm not interested, or didn't think they had credibility, I certainly wouldn't feel the need to keep coming back to tell you so.

My proof? You asked – my eyes and my ears are my proof. I move in predominantly Evertonian circles. I hear and see the growing concern about the ugliness of our football. I don't see a few on this thread agreeing with me as proof, merely confirmation of what I already know.

Imagine if this was a pivotal game at the fag end of the season or a cup final and he did the same? Most of you 'happy enough with a point at City' would be enraged by that 2nd-half display.

Just because the league is in its nascent stages, you don't get a free pass.

Every other top 6 contender's manager will look up at that result and then away again immediately, there's no change there, nothing to worry about.

As it stands on that performance, we are unlikely win at a top six side under Koeman.

The debate for my money is still too narrow. Plenty of posters conceding Koeman tried to change it but it didn't work out, or straight up he got it wrong.

The man has has a growing litany of defensive refusnik performances against the better sides. Each time the majority on these pages excuse him from the latest failure it simply is encouragement to accept the dour, joyless football he promotes.

We will win many games under Koeman, we may win handsomely against poorer sides but it won't be done so with any flair.

He has little methodology in attacking football other than to bludgeon his opponent. When he matches up against better sides, he has no rapier. He is the blunt object, and needs to find a attack minded coach who can complement his outstanding defensive nature.

Not gonna lie pretty much a consistent progession of making Everton water-tight at the back. He should be applauded for that. Needs to learn to mix silk with steel and quick.

For all criticizing realists who accept a point at City as an acceptable result, did you proclaim we can beat City before the game? 3-0 win? 5-0 win? What is your version of a good result before the game? How many looked at the schedule and said "oh wow, we are going to get 15 points from our first 5 games"?

Thinking that cost of our squad is somehow relational to winning is naive at best. Sure, OFFM had a much cheaper squad, so does City and their coach then is far more clueless than their current one. I don't like Koeman's defensive mindset but I would take him over OFFM any day.

I pointed out the irrelevance of that. You swerved that one!

Instead you now introduce a second irrelevance as follows: "Is Otemendi better than our new Favourite Keane? - Did Jesus stand out for you like Calvert Lewin. Is their goal keeper better than Pickford? Silly isn't it Brent".

For clarity (I shouldn't have to say this but you do seem to find it difficult to follow what people do and don't say) - I have nowhere said Otomendi is better than Keane etc etc as above. Why ask that question and say "Silly isn't it"?

"Silly" it is, Paul. From your own mouth! I guess you'll swerve that one as well.

Except at post 152😁

Come on Darren, all opinions are welcome but non should be forced on anyone with the opposite view. Discourteous posts encourage replies in the same manner. We could all do with lightening the mood at times, injecting a little humour would be good for all TW posters.

Some of the supposed best one-liners at the Edinburgh Fringe...
Not a fan of the new one pound Coin. Hate all change.
I'm giving up on rhetorical questions. What's the point?
Asked mum what a couple was. Oh, 2 or 3 she said. And she wonders why her marriage failed.
Just been on a lifetime holiday. Never again.

And a real one - my wife came back from a breast-screening appointment today. She said there were three others waiting when she arrived. "Three abreast, I asked? How weird"

"The problem I have with your post Darren"

"Until now" - This thread.

After ignoring weeks / months of Ray attacking the fact that I was criticising Koeman as opposed to occasionally tackling the points raised.

Didn't think it was so hard to understand... I was obviously wrong.

Larf? a nearly wet moiself.

That first one won the best joke competition I believe.

They should get themselves down here for a week listen to proper comedians.

I am not trying to shut you up Darren (I even suggested you have your own column), just try to get you to be less OTT so that some of your valid points might receive general favour (not necessarily mine). In so doing, I have probably come across like an unofficial moderator - which I had no right to do - and for which I apologise.

We are not diametrically opposed Darren - I'm not convinced by Koeman yet either, I'm just prepared to give him far more time to succeed / fail. Definitely my last contribution on this thread!

So I used others of examples because you said Coleman didn't play which is fair enough. He's still better than Walker though.

What most people miss is that when he took over as manager of the RS his first aim was to make them the no.1 team in Liverpool and therefore to the Uk.

He was years ahead in terms of PR, in terms of putting us down and promoting them. There are stories about him berating the colour blue and even directors changing carpets at home to rid their home of any blue. He was a salesman as well as a manager, even then He knew the value of a good quote.

We had Catterick who was a dour man, so not much of a contest. As a club we have let that go for too many years, maybe we can change that now who knows.

Do you not realise what you were doing in comparing Otemendi with Keane etc? Seriously? It's called a straw man...

Wikipedia "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent".

I'm sure you grasp that and why your argument was a straw man and therefore nonsense. But if you don't understand the concept of straw man, let me know and I'll spell it out in simpler terms.

The last refuge when you can't argue the point - slag somebody off...

"It only has no relevence to believers" - just call somebody a believer, don't address the substantive argument.

"and The arrogance of your Strawman shit says it all". Again, calling somebody arrogant - I believe it was a straw man; you responded with attacking the person ("arrogant") rather than the argument. And throwing the "shit" word at my (strawman) argument. You leave my strawman alone!!

And then "middle class banter rules aye". Where the hell did that come from?! Again, swerve the argument and just call it middle class (banter).

It's a shame most of the posts went off the original topic but that surely is the point and beauty of ToffeeWeb

Also off topic but of interest to me as I have forgotten. Does anyone recall how Koeman's Southampton team played in terms of style of play. I seem to remember they had their good and bad runs, but had pace (Mane and Long) and moved the ball well and quickly etc. He also inherited Pochettino's influence on the players which probably eased him into the role in his first year there, although he lost several members of his squad.

I'm not sure if it's a football forum or it's become a children's forum.

I had a quick look at the Saints results and they had some impressive results under Koeman, 8 nil vs Sunderland, 6-1 vs Villa...ok given the state of those teams, not so great, but decent enough results vs better teams such as 4 nil vs Arsenal. Of course, to balance out, some poor results against teams of various abilities.

Here's hoping Koeman is laying foundations.

Stop behaving like a middle class strawman.

I certainly don't aim to ever fall out with Evertonians it's a hard enough hobbie as it is. Fair does, lad – I appreciate the sensibleness, if that's a word. 👍

Ian (#208), I think the foundations are more or less there; we just lack a forward and that ball carrier who can take 2 men with him every time or make the opposition sit that yard or two deeper.

Especially away, mate. Home form is pretty solid. Maybe that changes without Lukaku if we don't get a goalscorer but, in away games, we lack a Mahrez type to take the pressure off. That would do Rooney especially the world of good.

There is still a week left for us to find a couple of quality players so fingers crossed we get the speedy outlet we need to hurt the top sides.

I think we can challenge James but it is a very hard, rocky road ahead. Imagine the negativity now 10 fold before season end. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. My hope is 9 points from next 3 games obviously but as a betting man, 3 points is a realistic bet.

Agree with that.

For all criticizing realists who accept a point at City as an acceptable result, did you proclaim we can beat City before the game? 3-0 win? 5-0 win? What is your version of a good result before the game? How many looked at the schedule and said "oh wow, we are going to get 15 points from our first 5 games"?

Against one of the top 6 teams I always hope we can win, but never expect us too as they simply have a better team / squad than us. Against City, I would have taken 1-1 before the game. No question. The way it panned out I was disappointed but accepting.

Thinking that cost of our squad is somehow relational to winning is naive at best. Sure, OFFM had a much cheaper squad, so does Man City and their coach then is far more clueless than their current one. I don't like Koeman's defensive mindset but I would take him over OFFM any day.

If comparing the costs of us v city we have both grown exponentially. Therefore for me the gap is still the same as it was on previous seasons so I understood why Koeman went defensive. Thinking we could have a free flowing team as we've spent the money we've spent who could match City was naive. They are still much better than us.

I don't like Koeman's defensive tactics either but believe they can serve a purpose and they would win us more points over a season than an attacking style such as Martinez, if you can call that attacking. And Koeman will live or die by those tactics. He's got my support for now as I can see what he's trying to do. Playing defensive against Man City away is one thing, but if he plays that way against say Brighton then questions will definitely be asked about his ability. And rightly so.

While I joke around with my 1-2-3-4 formation for maximum attacking prowess, I do think we can beat the top teams. Not easy, just possible. A mistake free, "luck on our side" game and we can beat them. I want to see more of Tom Davies as I've been completely convinced that DCL will be one of the next big things for our team. Barkley better get his shit together because I've run out of patience waiting for his signature.

Calvert-Lewin has improved. I'm not yet totally convinced as he's only played a handful of games in his proper position. But if he carries on from city in the same vein with adding a few more goals then I'll be fully on board too. He's got a bright future all being well.

I wouldn't be too harsh on Barkley though. He's made his intentions clear to Koeman, it seems from what we know anyway. Unless he has a big change of heart he won't sign. We don't fully know the reasons so I personally won't be harsh on the lad. Its his prerogative and right. The only thing I wouldn't do is play him once he's injury free, assuming he is still with us. I understand what he brings to the team and wouldn't hesitate having in my squad if he signed a contract.

But a player who is going to leave in 6 months (from when he's back, that is) on a free shouldn't be considered for first team selection. I thought the same with Kone (which I thought was madness by Koeman using him at the back end of last season, by the way), and I think the same with Barkley.