Klaassen to miss Chelsea trip

Friday, 25 August, 2017 184comments  |  Jump to most recent

Everton will be without two first-choice midfielders for Sunday's game at Stamford Bridge while no decision has been made yet on Idrissa Gueye.

Morgan Schneiderlin will be suspended for the game following his sending off for what referee Robert Madley deemed were two bookable offences at the Etihad Stadium on Monday and Davy Klaassen won't recover from a foot injury in time.

Gueye, who was left out of the side for last night's draw with Hajduk Split, will be assessed over the next couple of days to see if he can play. The Senegalese midfielder apparently felt his hamstring in the game against Manchester City but scans revealed no damage.

Sandro, meanwhile, hasn't yet shaken off a heel problem sustained in the Premier League season opener against Stoke City a fortnight ago and is again doubtful.

“It's tough playing Monday, Thursday, Sunday and we had to travel," Ronald Koeman told the media at Finch Farm this afternoon. "We've been a little bit unlucky with some injuries and that makes it even more difficult but we'll do a session tomorrow to see which players are the most fresh to start.

“I don't like to make changes but maybe it's about freshness for Sunday.

“Gana, I don't know. We need to wait until tomorrow to see if he can start or not. Klasssen will be out, Sandro is a doubt for Sunday. Barkley is out, McCarthy is out and then there's the long-term [injured].”


Reader Comments (184)

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Ajay Gopal
1 Posted 25/08/2017 at 14:31:29
Oh dear, if Gana also not available, suddenly we are without 3 out of 4 defensive midfielders (Schneiderlin, Gana, McCarthy). What an oppprtunity lost for McCarthy!

On another thread, I posted that Rooney needs to be rested- but with the injuries now, no way! The team will probably be:

Holgate Keane Jags Baines
Davis Besic Siggy
Mirallas Rooney DCL

Subs: Stek, Martina, Kenny, Williams, Lookman, Lennon, ??

The bench looks pathetic. Damage limitation game IMO, we will be lucky to come away with a 2-0 or 3-0. Never been so pessimistic about a game before.

James Watts
2 Posted 25/08/2017 at 14:44:47
That's the spirit, Ajay! Let's not bother going and give them a 3-0 default victory eh? We can rest up and the fans can save cash by not wasting their time going down there too.
Nigel Munford
3 Posted 25/08/2017 at 14:53:08
Ajay, if I were one of the subs you mention I'd be insulted by your comments.
Nigel Munford
4 Posted 25/08/2017 at 14:56:01
There's some opportunity here for some players to step up and make a bid for regular first team starts. I'd also have Martina in the starting 11 in place of Holgate.
Derek Knox
5 Posted 25/08/2017 at 15:09:16
Ajay, I thought before the City game, we would be lucky if we got the draw, then look what happened, we could so easily have got all three points there, but for a defensive lapse by Mason Holgate.

I am confident the lad will have learned a valuable lesson there, remember too Ajay, Chelski have not been setting the world on fire yet, good time to play them, as with City.

There should be competition for places anyway, but with suspensions and injuries, this will be a good test, looking forward to it!

John G Davies
6 Posted 25/08/2017 at 15:09:58
Three central defenders for this one.
Williams struggled at times last night, miss timed a few tackles, beside the mistake for the penalty.
Tiredness probably the cause of that. He was outstanding against City.
Jay Wood
7 Posted 25/08/2017 at 15:18:45
I seem to recall 3 at the back last season at Chelsea didn't end well, John... but it may well be a goer Sunday, giving the injuries. And it worked well against Citeh on Monday, despite what some try to argue.

Or will he keep a flat back four and rotate for example Jags for Williams and Holgate for Martina?

As for the injuries, this is why there is duplication and more quantity, as well as quality, added to the squad. As cover, but also, greater competition.

To be selected and stay in the first XI this season you need to perform to a high standard, or others will take your place. Tough on the injured players, but a chance for someone to step up and make themselves undroppable.

Chris Williams
8 Posted 25/08/2017 at 15:18:56
Agreed John,

Seems to be his default formation, at least to start most games and will match Chelseas set up. Similar to City team, with Besic or Gueye in for Schneiderlin, Davies, Rooney and Sigurdsson supporting DCL.

Another challenge for sure, but are they better than City? Missing Hazard , Cahill and maybe Pedro.

Good game, but from an Everton point of view maybe not so pretty again.

Ajay Gopal
9 Posted 25/08/2017 at 16:06:46
James (2), Derek (5), I would have been more optimistic if it wasn't for the fact that we just played a very tough away game in Eatern Europe 3 days before and we have all these injuries and suspensions. Rooney, Siggy, Besic, Baines and DCL will be shagged out. I am a normally optimistic person, but I just don't see us getting anything out from this one. Having said that, football is a funny game, XI vs XI, etc, etc. If we do come away with even a draw, I will start believing that this could be a special season for us.
Fran Mitchell
10 Posted 25/08/2017 at 16:20:32
Either: Martina Baines Williams Keane Jags Davies Besic Siggy Rooney Mirallas Lewin 5-3-1-1


Holgate Jags Keane Baines Davies Besic Siggy Mirallas Rooney lewin 4-3-2-1

Alan Bodell
11 Posted 25/08/2017 at 16:29:13
Schneiderlin should never have got that 2nd, fucking muppet ref Madley just did it at the home of a 'big' team just to even things up, hope Koeman reminds the twat next time he's at Goodison.
Had a chuckle at James #2, funny.
Dave Speed
12 Posted 25/08/2017 at 16:42:43
It doesn't matter against Chelski what position anyone plays outside of our defence. Whoever plays will just need to close down the space and keep an eye on their runners and follow them. It is unlikely that the team will be coached to play expansive football as it would cost us dearly. I would be surprised by anything other than parking the bus. Everyone has done it at one time or another against a team perceived to be stronger, better etc, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. With Rooney in the team and DCL and perhaps Lookman doing willing running we are always likely to pinch a breakaway goal, so get ready for a backs to the wall job.
Gio Mero
13 Posted 25/08/2017 at 17:05:51
Not a chance we start with both Mirallas and Calvert-Lewin if Sandro is unavailable. Also I wonder if Koeman forgot Holgate is a centre-back... meaning I wonder if he ever tries him in his natural position, at least during training sessions, and simply doesn't think he'd cut it at this level. He's not exactly setting the world on fire on the right either...
Paul Kelly
15 Posted 25/08/2017 at 17:51:31
"I would be surprised by anything other than parking the bus." My thoughts exactly.

We will see a performance that may well echo the first half against Man City, let's hope we don't see one that echoes the second!

In all fairness, we will need to keep it tight and I don't expect much more than Kitap1 style display. Plus I can't see Sigurdsson lasting too long in this one following his lack of pre-season so he'll have to score another 45-yard pearler before he's subbed.

Paul Holmes
16 Posted 25/08/2017 at 17:55:48
We played 3 at the back last time we played them and got beat 5-0. Conte knows how to play against this Italian-style system!
Anthony Hughes
17 Posted 25/08/2017 at 17:56:00
We need to have a busy week in the transfer market if we want to fight in four competetions
Anthony Hughes
18 Posted 25/08/2017 at 17:56:56
Sorry competitions
Des Farren
19 Posted 25/08/2017 at 18:35:01
And these pages have, for months, been calling for major reduction in numbers of mids. ie "get rid of Barry, Macca, Besic" not to mention Lennon and Mirallas. One month in to season and this area is under severe pressure.
Meanwhile Williams and Baines are weekly given a free pass for every conceivable type of mistake. Opinions eh..
Except in the case of Baines it's the same mistakes every week.
Lev Vellene
20 Posted 25/08/2017 at 18:41:31
Maybe some people will wake up to our new world now?

"We'll now have too many of this sort, and also too many of that kind! And who will this one replace to get a spot in the first team? Oh 'moan', oh 'mumble woefully'..."

Third round of the PL not started yet, and we've played 2 PL games and 4 Euro games. 6 more Europa League games before Christmas, and what if we make it past the first hurdle in both domestic cups?

TW'ers will be ecstatic with misery! :D

Jay Wood
21 Posted 25/08/2017 at 18:50:00
Talking of Chelsea, for anyone interested, the club site is saying it's possible to follow the U-23 game tonight away to Chelsea LIVE on Chelsea's YouTube page.

The following is a link to the news story, NOT the link you need to use to view the match. 7pm KO, according to the club site.


Jay Wood
22 Posted 25/08/2017 at 18:53:43
Update on my previous post.

Here's the link to the live broadcast of the game.


Still image showing at the moment, but be patient and when the game gets underway these things usually start rolling.

Tom Bowers
23 Posted 25/08/2017 at 18:56:13
These absentees couldn't have come at a bad time with these next 3 games coming up. We sign Gylfi and then this happens. Perhaps in hindsight we should have kept Barry a while longer.
Still, it will be a backs against the wall job at Stamford Bridge and unless Besic & co. can pull their collective socks up it's going to be a dour afternoon.
Jay Wood
24 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:02:50
Chelsea v Everton U-23 game live now.

My feed was a bit jumpy, but it's a great stream now.

Here's the link again:


Lev Vellene
25 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:02:51
Thank you for the link, Jay!

After winning the PL2 last year, there's one thing we can sure of: All the other teams will want Everton U23's scalp, so these matches should show us a lot about our new hopefuls!

Lev Vellene
26 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:05:49
Eden Hazard playing, and Conte watching!
Jay Wood
27 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:06:34
Hazard starts for them (eek!).

Niasse starts for us (double eek!).

Jay Wood
28 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:09:57
Our starting XI:

Gray, Jones, Foulds, Baningime, Feeney, Connolly, Charsley, Evans, Walsh, Sambou, Niasse.

Jay Wood
29 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:09:57
Our starting XI:

Gray, Jones, Foulds, Baningime, Feeney, Connolly, Charsley, Evans, Walsh, Sambou, Niasse.

Darren Hind
30 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:13:55
Some wishful thinking going on here.

Koeman will go seven at the back against Chelsea (eight if you include Pickford).... that's the only way he knows , forget DM's or full backs crossing the half-way line, it ain't happening

How do I know? same way I know tomorrow's Saturday.

Andrew Keatley
32 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:23:05
1-0 up. Own goal. Great cross from Liam Walsh
Lev Vellene
33 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:23:22
NIce one from Walsh! Own goal from that.
Brent Stephens
34 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:23:52
Good interplay Walsh and winger
Jay Wood
35 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:25:03
Walsh involved twice with the goal.

First, crisp pass to Charsley on the right flank before taking the return pass and hitting a wicked 1st time cross into the danger area, causing the retreating Chelsea defender to score an oggie.

Liam is skipper, BTW.

John G Davies
36 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:28:03

Unless he takes a chance and goes with two forwards, in which case it will
be 7-1-2 😁

David Pearl
37 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:28:55
So that's not as bad as 10 at the back and Rooney given a free role hey Darren.
We should play McCarthy. Because we all know ROI will no matter what,
Maybe these injuries force Koemans hand a bit with selection. Besic looks set to play again. Interesting selection. Siggy, Rooney, Mirallas all fit. We can beat them.
Lev Vellene
38 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:41:50
Darren #30
Wishful thinking is the middle name of all football fans! That's why they show up for the games... :)

Did Everton fully fulfill your expectations and predictions for the first six competitive games this season? Have we done a lot worse than our competition?

We've allegedly had money available for around a year and a half now, how much did Man C's money gain them for the first year, or two?

Darren Hind
39 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:43:42
It will be ten David. he will leave one up front to work his bollocks off and the two behind him will be defending from inside our half.

Sean Dyche proved what can happen if you go at them at Stamford Bridge... Let's see if Koeman has learned anything at all after being taken to school on his last visit.

John Pierce
40 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:45:31
Don't worry Darren, Koeman just keeping it tight until we play, erm the lesser teams in the division and then we will see the REAL expansive side to his coaching project.
John G Davies
41 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:54:34
I fuckin love TW.
Bottle of vino and this.
Jay Wood
42 Posted 25/08/2017 at 19:56:12
Good workout and test for the U-23s this game.

Still 1-0 to the good at half time, but the home side certainly had the better of it after we took the lead.

Hazard growing into the game and showing his class compared to anyone else on the pitch, but the defence is holding firm and Gray the keeper made a great safe from a crunching downward header.

We were lucky the ref didn't award a clear pen against Feeney who brought down Hazard following a mazy run.

Darren Hind
43 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:03:08
Yea, they did fulfil my expectations Lev.

I expected them to beat third-rate opposition in the opening qualifiers, I expected the to beat second rate opposition in the next stage. At half time against Ma City I expected us to try to shut up shop against ten men and I expected to become embroiled in a war of attrition against Stoke...

I also expected our football to be unadventurous and Joyless

So all in all Yep, No surprises. for me – although a couple of individuals have torn up the safety first manual and pleasantly surprised me. A bit like last season really

Lev Vellene
44 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:05:34
Yellow card for Callum Connolly, and he was not taking it silently! Maybe the perceived meek EFC of the past decades are taking cues from WR now?

All in all, a good first half! Especially as so many of those I watched with the U23's last season are now on loan elsewhere!

Colin Glassar
45 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:07:58
So Foulds exists then? I thought he was just a figment of my imagination.
Andrew Keatley
46 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:18:14
0-2 Baningime
Jay Wood
47 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:18:47
2-0. Walsh again involved. Good finish by Baningime. Probably against the run of play.
Brent Stephens
48 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:19:02
Walsh provides again
Lev Vellene
49 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:24:09
Darren #43

Different approach/outlook, same result, then!

I know the factual dispositions of RK might seem very dour, but I still remember him saying that he did not want us to go to Split to just defend our home result. He wanted more! And if the sight of him continually trying to force his players wide during the second half, does not show his intent, what can? The players hunkered down, he didn't!

Mike Gaynes
50 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:26:29
Jay, cheers for the link... very much enjoying this!
John Pierce
51 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:43:16
Lev, what Koeman says is very much lip service.

He, has at every turn looked to hang in games and nick one.

Many use a lack of personnel last season, a 'means to an end' argument to excuse performances at Burnley, Bournemouth, Middlesboro & Stoke last season. A massive 2pts from that lot, and the enjoyment level of a having your toenails removed slowly and one at a time.

This season, so many new players, fitness blah. Yet so many of those new signings have been our best players; Pickford, Rooney, Keane. And we are further on than other teams so our fitness is better apparently.

Clearly so many want their cake and to proffer excuses at the same time.

If Koeman is progressing its at the speed of an ice breaker, discernible to all but acolytes.

All I want is to see clear evidence of him trying to win the game first, then he can see it out. He has completely satisfied my desire to make us resolute, beyond dispute and great credit to him.

He's making Moyes look adventurous, ouch!

Nathan Snell
52 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:44:40
For the Chelsea game, I'd go with: Pickford, Jagielka, Keane & Williams (in a back 3), Martina & Baines (wingbacks). Besic (if Gueye is out) and Davies (holding) and Sigurdsson, Rooney and Calvert-Lewin.
Andrew Keatley
53 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:48:17
Hahahah - Niasse 0-3
Jay Wood
54 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:48:45
Niasse 3-0 at the death.

Good finish too, from a tight angle into the roof of the net having had his first shot saved.

Mike Gaynes
55 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:49:06
Cracking finish by Niasse for 0-3. Nice win.
Darren Hind
56 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:49:16
Yeah, That's it, Lev.

It's all the players' fault. The bastards love playing miserable football.

Fifty games and nearly as many players and poor old Ronnie still can't get them to adapt to his we'll-score-one-more-than-you approach.

Brent Stephens
57 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:49:39
3-0 and it's been all Chelsea.
John G Davies
58 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:50:10
John, 51

Simple solution mate. Don't go.

Brent Stephens
59 Posted 25/08/2017 at 20:50:31
3-0 win tonight and a defensive performance. Well, well.
Lev Vellene
62 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:06:14
John #51
As I remember it, RK did not promise instant improvements! He said he'd signed on for a 3-year project (to eventually get Everton up among the best of the PL, and to even win stuff like cups, was my understanding at the time).

Would you have taken RM's old team, with some few improvements (...) to terrorize anyone last year? Or even this year, when so very few of that old guard are left, and the rest have not yet learned to play together as a TEAM?

So yes, I had no expectations for our last season (except that we wouldn't go down).

And yet, if you are not too entrenched with your initial expectations, RK has got us moving forwards this last year!

Just to be flippant: If you don't have one or more Messi's in your team already, don't try to play like you should have had one of them anyway! Win, or at least don't lose, by any means, while you are waiting for one to show up...

Simon Bates
63 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:07:45
So the assertion that we're overloaded with midfielders has suddenly become ridiculous .

We have been 2 players light there now for 2 seasons ,as Besic has been injured and McCarthy you may as well just discount , as he certainly can't be counted on by us, even to make the right decision for us, when it comes to Ireland.

Besic is no Gana, now for the 2nd day running we are being strongly linked with Dendonker, yesterday his agent supposedly said he wants us and today his clubs president has said we would get him for 20 plus million , just sell McCarthy and make this happen
As where we are supposedly said to be strong , it doesn't take much right now to expose that myth.

Terry White
64 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:15:16
Darren (#39), it's ok to ignore that Chelsea played for 75 minutes with 10 men when you state Burnley "go at them" at Chelsea? Do you really think that would have been the case if Chelsea had played all game with a full team - be realistic.
Paul A Smith
65 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:16:13
At full strength there is nothing to suggest we would not struggle there. With Sigurdson only half fit and the rest of the fit ones probably knackered its going to be tougher than usual no doubt. At the same time its a great opportunity for those on the usual subs bench to get out and impress the manager.

I'm hoping Chelsea's faithful feel the Sunday atmosphere and the fringe players stand up and be counted. Never slag a team before a game. Strange line ups can bring strange results.

Jay Wood
66 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:19:28
Only watched it once Will, last season for the under-23 derby match when we came back from 3-0 down to draw 3-3.

I think John Aldridge was co-commentator.

Funny as fu- fu- fudge how indignant and biased the calling of the match was by both commentators.

Very much akin to this:


Paul A Smith
67 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:21:27
Terry 69. We just played 10 men for 60 mins and didn't go at them mate.
We can't knock what Burnley might not have done when they went and done the right thing.
Lev Vellene
68 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:25:13
Darren #56

So if we tempted old SAF out of his retirement to replace RK, then his famous rants at half time would have made even Everton's (financially) available players win everything these last years?

There seems to be no real understanding with you at all, that for any team to win the PL will either require the most superior (and expensive!) players around available, or for someone like us to luck out like Leicester with just the proper mix of (supposedly worthless) players available for that season...

Paul A Smith
69 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:29:20
John (#58) – your reply to John: "Don't go"? What an awful response.

Why should an Evertonian not have his own personal opinion and it not have to be in trend with yours. Why should a fan's concern about a manager stop him going to the game anyway?
I am sure John has more affinity to the club than any manager as long as he has been an Evertonian. He doesn't have to like the manager, or any player for that matter, but he loves the club, like you, and it belongs to him more than any manager or player.

John G Davies
70 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:32:53
John, it does belong to us.
When I was as unhappy as John with the style of play(Moyes) I stopped going.
No offence meant.
Darren Hind
71 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:37:21
What's happening to this club? We were kings.

Life long Evertonians sick to the back teeth of seeing joyless soulless football being told "don't go" by people who spend their days apologising for it.


Andy Crooks
72 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:41:30
I find the fear among some on this site baffling. Chelsea aren't, as Burnley showed, all that good. I don't expect us to go and set about them, right now we haven't enough fit players. However, I expect us to have more ambition.
I expect us to try and win. We have good players who can hurt Chelsea and I expect the coach to plan it that way. We have played with fear against teams that we seem to see as our betters.

How about treating Chelsea with contempt. Defend solidly but not deep. Press, fight, get in their faces and have players on the pitch who can run at them. Get the team up for this match as if it was a game to save us from relegation. Please do not sit tight, concede a couple of goals and walk away saying they have more money than us. This is time for the coach to show that he can motivate and surprise.

Dermot Byrne
73 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:44:26
We were kings"

Darren we have had some good teams who won some trophies and some shite one's who didn't. Like most clubs.

Don't overplay our history or the present., "We were kings"

Darren we have had some good teams who won some trophies and some shite one's who didn't. Like most clubs.

Don't overplay our history or the present., ,,1,21:42:28,,,ok,19546,08/25/2017 21:42:28,debyrne,reader,, 843540,35393,toffeeweb,25/08/2017,Darren Hind,dashin@cheerful.com,Or the depressing acceptance of how we play now.,or our depressing acceptance of our situation now,,BlueKfrog,1,21:44:20,,,ok,13643,08/25/2017 21:44:20,lauriblue,reader,, 843541,35394,toffeeweb,25/08/2017,Dave Abrahams,dave.abba@hotmail.com,"John he scored the last goal,in a 3-0 win.

Darren Hind
74 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:44:20
Or the depressing acceptance of how we play now.
Paul A Smith
75 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:50:43
Dermot its not really like most teams mate. Most teams haven't won the league 9 times or got a European honour, a small number have, of course.

Spurs haven't won the title since the 60s and we still have a situation where players would rather play for them than us. I don't think it's just the last or the next game that pisses Darren off.

Hugo Kondratiuk
76 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:58:18
Dave (76), from what I saw on YouTube Walsh played well. He had a lot to do with the first and second goals, and even the one-eyed Chelsea commentator picked him out. Mind you, the commentator was also keen on Niasse - maybe an Oumar-Costa swap could be on the cards.
John G Davies
77 Posted 25/08/2017 at 21:59:22
Now, now.
No stirring on the back of another's post please.
Jay Wood
78 Posted 25/08/2017 at 22:05:03
Just for you Dave. Check out the following link:


It's the whole game, so to see the goals fast forward to these times:

21mins - watch how canny Walsh is from the throw in, pushing the Chelsea defender away in the chest to give himself more room to receive the ball. He plays a sharp one-touch 1-2 with the thrower, Jones, takes a couple of touches before curling a delightful left footed pass in behind the Chelsea defence for Charsley. Charsley holds up the ball then plays it back to the advancing Walsh near the corner of the right side of their penalty, who now with his right foot whips a dangerous ball into their 6-yard area and the Chelsea defender can only turn it into his own net.

Next, fast forward to 1 hour 16 mins. From a bitty throw in down our left flank, close to their penalty area, Foulds feeds the ball to Liam. Walsh holds off the challenge from a Chelsea defender whilst taking 2-3 touches before rolling the ball across the edge of the penalty area to Banginime and from the 'D', Beni angles a first time daisy cutter back across the keeper into the left hand corner, helped a tad by Sambou jumping over the ball and possibly unsighting the keeper.

Finally, go to the 1 hour 46 minutes mark. It's worth it to see from where the 3rd goal starts. Gibson, on as sub, wins the ball well deep in his full back position and carries the ball deep into the Chelsea half before playing it inside to another sub Nathan Broadhead. He carries it to the edge of the Chelsea penalty area on the right, and lays it wide into the path of Niasse. He lets fly with a thunderous shot, well saved low down by the keeper, but Niasse is quicker to the rebound and from a tight angle wellies it into the roof of the net.

Watch until the end from here, the final 5 minutes, because you will also see Broadhead create a curl a beauty of the right post.

I was very impressed by how resolute and calm the defence played under the cosh for most of the match.

Don Alexander
79 Posted 25/08/2017 at 22:22:51
Believe it or not we all know what pisses Darren off Paul (and you and just a few others it seems) but his "We Were Kings" line is a bit sad even by his standards.

I take no pleasure at all in saying it but in terms of European success Chelsea, Man U, Forest, Villa, Leeds, Newcastle, Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, Man City and Ipswich all won a European trophy before we did.

However, most supporters of the club generally see that progress is now being made. Most see that it's unlikely to be maintained unless there's a concentration on consistently avoiding defeat. Winning ways then develop from solid defence. Most recognise that those clubs more successful than us last year spent way more on accruing a squad (apart from Spurs perhaps, but last season was not the first they were all thrown together) and most of us recognise that the new squad we now have will take a month or two at least to gel together. It's the norm no matter the club or manager, at any level.

But some continue to spit their dummy out because we're not already destroying teams with scintillating football as we contemplate just the third league match of the season. Weird!

Steve Ferns
81 Posted 25/08/2017 at 22:35:26
The starting Line-Up should pick itself for this one. I hate a back five (and sorry folks I will never accept it is a back three, unless we play two out and out wingers wide - which Ronny never will), but if ever there was a game and a set of circumstances for it, this is it. So it is 541 or 523:

Keane Williams Jagielka
Holgate Gueye Besic Baines
Sigurdsson Rooney Calvert Lewin

If Gueye isn't fit enough then expect Davies to come in for him. All of the front three track back and get forward with energy so I expect them all to start. Mirallas has been quiet so far in terms of minutes on the pitch, but I expect him to get a look in here from the bench.

If Koeman is feeling adventurous then perhaps he can play a 4231 as follows:

Holgate Keane Jagielka Baines
Davie Gueye
Lennon Sigurdsson Mirallas

He would then have Lookman and Calvert-Lewin to thrown on from the bench.

Darren Hind
82 Posted 25/08/2017 at 22:38:43
Kings – Champions...

Nine times... that's more than Chelsea, Forest, Villa, Leeds, Newcastle, Spurs, West Ham, Ipswich and Man City.

That may be a "sad" statement to your average embracer of mediocrity, but to Evertonians who know their history, it's an irrefutable fact.

Paul A Smith
83 Posted 25/08/2017 at 22:43:21
Not sure that's entirely right, Don (#79). I take in every comment I read, mate, I don't know if you or Darren are right?

Some fans (and people competing in general) take defeat or loss of progress worse than others. Loss of progress as in the last 20 years or to a smaller extent, 2 points dropped at Man City.

Now some fans don't see it as 2 points dropped and that is their right but I don't take offence to either side of the coin. I don't find anything wrong in a fan pointing out a fault when we win because I want to see us faultless. In our heads, we know that is virtually impossible but it's right to have a crack at it surely?

I think everyone who responds to Darren knows how much he loves the club. He's only like one of them American dads that coaches his kid at the dinner table etc.

In my opinion, what some see as 'negative', I just see as more desperate than most to reach the elite. I might be more desperate than you, Don, and patience is a virtue, mate, so good on you for having it. Mine wears thin every time we drop a point. Ha.

I hope everyone thinks Darren and the outspoken love talking with fellow blues though. Of course, we all do – or we wouldn't be on here... and some of the debate is fantastic.

Don Alexander
84 Posted 25/08/2017 at 22:44:14
It's about looking forwards Darren, not backwards, hence the three-year plan to qualify for the CL with a new stadium as a huge bonus. Nowt to whinge about for most of us.
Phil Bellis
85 Posted 25/08/2017 at 22:55:18
Except Don, a lot of us are in the departure lounge... You with the ugly gob and the scythe... F off!
Alan Smith
86 Posted 25/08/2017 at 23:06:11
The 3-year plan would have been 9 months if Lukaku and Barkley had been given mega dough to stay or made to stay.

In 3 years time, Baines and Jagielka will be gone. Rooney finished. Davies wanting to leave for Man Utd. Coleman, Bolasie, Sigurdsson all the wrong the side of 30. It's an awful plan if that's the intention.

When will you all realise that the only plan Everton board have is to remain top half?

If 20 years from now, we finish 7th, Moshiri will have trebled or quadrupled his investment. That's the plan!

Peter Lee
87 Posted 25/08/2017 at 23:07:39
We were on the winning team in two world wars but the Germans are economic top dogs now. The reality of now and its impact on the future is all that matters.

History gets us sweet FA however warming it might be to reflect on it.

James Watts
88 Posted 26/08/2017 at 00:28:43
Phil (#85). Fair enough some lads are debating points but what's the point of your post apart from to be rude? Nothing to add; don't just jump in and say to someone "fuck off". Idiot. Your surname is nearly so apt.

Darren/Paul. Obviously I'm with Don and his optimistic view. We all know you don't like the manager's style or tactics. No problem with that. But come on, we are building a team now. We are starting to become competitive for the first time in 30-odd years. Can you not just put the style to one side, for now, whilst this process happens?

It's not about rolling over, it's about being patient. Most of us can see that, hence we can put up with it at the moment. And worse case? We likely only have another 20 months of watching a Koeman team. There's always a brightside!

Don Alexander
89 Posted 26/08/2017 at 01:00:33
Thanks James Watts! Weird as Darren's anti-Koeman mania is he's entitled to state his opinion as a 100% Toffee. I just wish he'd refrain from personally denigrating other 100% Toffees as "Straw-men" in the event they don't share his point of view.

You're also bob-on in saying Koeman might just be history if he doesn't deliver by the end of next season. I hope he does though, but only for our sake, not his.

Lastly, Mr Bellis; My "ugly gob" has actually been kissed by a Penthouse-Pet . so there! Hope your flight's not delayed by the way!

Will Mabon
90 Posted 26/08/2017 at 01:01:53
James - read Phil's post again slowly and carefully, and you might grasp what he's saying.
Will Mabon
91 Posted 26/08/2017 at 01:02:46
Don - I think you need to re-read it too. Clue: Scythe.
Will Mabon
92 Posted 26/08/2017 at 01:19:56
Jay @ 66:

That was an amusing link but I imagine, quite similar to the "Real" thing!

James Watts
93 Posted 26/08/2017 at 01:34:29
Will. Ahhhhh thank you for that. That'll teach me to react when I've just woken up. I guess that makes me the 'bell'. Apologies Phil.

Andrew Keatley
94 Posted 26/08/2017 at 01:45:01
James (88) - Think you might have been a tad quick on the trigger calling Phil (85) an idiot...
Andrew Keatley
95 Posted 26/08/2017 at 01:46:07
And now it's me that needs to be quicker on the trigger! Nice touch James (93)...
Anthony Dwyer
96 Posted 26/08/2017 at 02:09:46
Looking at the injuries isn't this a great chance to give the likes of Liam Walsh a chance to sit on the bench and see exactly what the likes of Chelsea have to offer.

We won the u23 league last season we have a few quality lads within that squad, this may be the perfect opportunity to see weather there up to the challenge.

Niasse should be included in the squad no matter what Koemans gripe is, he will be sold and Koemans point has been made, but if Niasse is on the bench and is used to get the goal that sneaks us a point or three then Koeman needs to be the bigger person and act as a manager and not a school head master.

Danny Broderick
97 Posted 26/08/2017 at 03:58:39
Win or lose on Sunday, the likes of Darren should be reassured that we now have a top manager who is doing an excellent job taking us forward. He has transformed our home record after Martinez' damage to it. He has got the squad fit and organised again. And he is also overseeing an overhaul of the squad, while developing lots of young English talent.

We may get beat on Sunday, or we may not. The key is the big picture. We are going in the right direction.

John Pierce
98 Posted 26/08/2017 at 04:33:46
Lev #62, despite my rhetoric I'm desperate, like us all, for Everton to win something.

I remember what is was like, just, and even under this evolving team it feels so far away.

I would never even take any comparisons from Martinez's teams, he set the bar so low it aint worth it.

People say it takes time. Yet Koeman coached a defensive solidity into that shambles in about 10mins. So although attacking may take longer to craft, not 50 games worth. We were solid from almost day one under him, the Chelsea aberration apart.

My point, albeit laboured is he can make us play with more verve and with one eye on the fluid. Yet he chooses not too even against poorer sides.

We have an improved squad of players, even from last year. Most teams come to Goodison and start sh$$ting bricks in order to build a wall they're that limited.

Theres no reason to be that defensive, surely. So tell me why he chooses too?

James Watts
99 Posted 26/08/2017 at 05:47:10
John #98

"he can make us play with more verve and with one eye on the fluid"

But can he? Does he have the know how? He tanked at Valencia. Did ok in Holland. During his time at Southampton they were solid and generally difficult to beat but they hardly ever put teams to the sword. I saw a few Southampton games when he was in charge, and they played in a similar fashion to us now. They also had the occasional game like we had against city last season but it wasn't the norm.

My point is, if anyone is expecting a free flowing attacking mind set from Koeman, you're not going to get it. Even with all the money we have spent. It's always going to safety first. That's his style.

Will it be enough? Hard to stay but this type of football has to be producing trophies otherwise the majority of fans will turn before the season is finished.

However, I'm being patient at the moment. Improvement on league position and good runs in the cup, with possibly winning a couple. Thats the realistic thing we can aim for with our squad. We'll know by January or February time if patience was the right thing or not.

Steven Jones
100 Posted 26/08/2017 at 07:38:46
Conte and The Special one often take to parking the bus, solid frist and break from and through an opponents openness as the game goes on - think Chelsea versus both Spurs and d-shite .

Last year Manure were solid, "boring" and nicked games from solid safe, well organised platform

Two seasons in and they are now progressing nicely

We have a structure to playing and the U23's reflected that last night and won 3-0 - with the thee best pieces of quality on display .

It takes time to bed in a style of play - it combines strength of defensive set up and the ability to play fast sharp passes on transition or exploit weaknesses in formation or players in the opposition to find space and score goals . add in clever player recruitment, overall top fitness, discipline, bonded confident dressing room, work rate, express yourself and productivity on assists and goals at the right time - then we have a formula for getting back from 14th palace and into the top 7 and looking up not backwards - and in 4 competitions . enjoy the ride guys .

John G Davies
101 Posted 26/08/2017 at 07:49:09
Steven Jones,

That is the point precisely and well made.
We need to be patient, being "we have won the league 9 times and I want it NOW" hasn't worked.
Allow him time to build his team and squad, if it doesn't show big signs of improvement by the end of the season get on his back then.

If we win a trophy without playing school of science football how many will walk down Wembley Way saying "I'm not celebrating, the football wasn't all that"
I have been brought to tears of joy and welled up on many occasions watching the stellar football some of our great sides have played, I would give anything to see it again in a Koeman team. In the meantime I would take a trophy for a side built on defensive solidity. It's been too long.

John Pierce,

I posted last night mate, my post to you looked wrong after I had sent it. I explained it afterwards.
No disrespect intended.

John Charles
103 Posted 26/08/2017 at 08:30:55
Win on Sunday and RK is a genius lose and an idiot. That's the way it seems to go.

I like most blues would dance down the street if we won something under RK , unfortunately I can't see it happening. His defensive mindset will see us safely in 7/8th with the occasional stellar win. The comparison with Chelsea or United parking the bus and building from defensive solidity doesn't ring true as they have fast aggressive players up top
- Hazard, Pedro, willian, Rashford, Martial, Lukaku - and we do not. So our defensive solidity does not translate into fast incisive counter attacks and , the much talked of transition does not happen anywhere near quickly enough.

How ever will be there Sunday with hope in heart ready to dance down street.


Chris Williams
104 Posted 26/08/2017 at 08:36:34
We've won the league all those times, absolutely true and a few more things besides. Some of the football has been sublime and the triumphs were fantastic.

Churchill said something along the lines of, the only purpose of history is to learn from it. So if you know your history...

We started spending the Moores money in 59/60. And we brought in a fair few new players that season like Vernon, Gabriel, Lill, Wignall and Ring who played alongside Labone, Temple Collins, Parker and Harris, who were already there. We finished 15th that season. We didn't win the league until 62/63 but improved gradually and recruited well especially after Catterick joined us. He developed the squad from outside and from within, and we won again in 69/70 with a Cup in between. We were in the upper reaches of the league most of that time. And the football was sublime and pragmatic .

Then it all turned to rat.

Similar when Howard came in, false starts, Biley et al arrived but nothing happened for a good while until , clever recruitment and maturing home grown players and Harvey was promoted . And we won stuff over time, gradually, and the football was sublime and pragmatic.

Then it all turned to rat.

And football changed.

Now we are hopefully again in another cycle, part way at least, but in an era when it is not a level playing field, so it will take time to develop whether we rail or complain about it, just like it did in the last two times we experienced success. We celebrate the successes but forget the time and work it took to get there. And the gaps in between.

We can't blame Koeman , Walsh and Moshiri for the faults that have gone on for decades before, which is maybe the root of some of the impatience.

So whether we like it or not, experience shows this stuff takes time, and there are sometimes false starts and mistakes. Not everything will work. Live with it folks and maybe, just maybe with care and skilful planning we will experience success again and the football will be sublime and pragmatic.

And with luck this time it won't turn to rat.

Phil Walling
105 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:05:21
I suspect Koeman has soon come to realise that in order to protect the Sacred Seventh spot, a heavy leaning towards defence is vital. Flood the team with with defenders both in the backs and midfield and you present a shield that can frustrate even the best opposition.

Whoever said the game had to be entertaining ?

Colin Glassar
106 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:14:43
Depends Phil, if we leave Ross down there and come back with Costa anything could happen.
Martin Mason
107 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:53:03
Darren@82, what do you actually do to counter mediocrity other than moan? The concept that some Everton fans accept mediocrity is ridiculous, some of us just don't moan rather look for the positives and criticise constructively only when it's warranted not as normal practice. I see nothing but positives at the moment and see you as a rotten apple in the barrel. I also criticise what I see as faults in Koeman's tactics and selections but you have to remember that he's forgotten more about the game than you'll ever know. You have no qualifications to criticise him or to demean other Everton fans.

All Evertonians know how many times we have won the league or could Google it in a nano second not an imaginary group of specials who "know their history".

Stan Schofield
108 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:56:26
Chris@104: Well said, great post. Although Koeman has seemed focused on defence, and a lot of the football last season was pretty tedious, there were times when we put together some fantastic moves with intricate passing, fast as well. We've seen more signs this season, particularly the 1st half of the home game against Split.

If we can do that, we can do it more often, more consistently, and it can be a case of getting the machine oiled and running to speed gradually. I think this is reinforced by signings such as Sigurdsson and Klaasen, who are definitely finesse players focused on attacking.

So although Koeman has seemed defensive minded, there's reason to believe it won't stay that way.

Jon Withey
109 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:56:40
Nothing wrong with a solid defense, the sensible place to start.

We don't have much attacking verve though - it's a pragmatic team.

Rooney and Siggy will do all the right things to a very high standard and I'm made up to have them.

It's a real shame Bolasie isn't fit as at least he has that unpredictability.

I still wish we hadn't let Dowell out on loan. But I guess we'll see who we get the coming week.

Ray Roche
110 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:02:28
Don Alexander #89

" My "ugly gob" has actually been kissed by a Penthouse-Pet "

OK, so you've kissed some bird's pet goat. So what?

(NOT a euphemism)

Dave Abrahams
111 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:21:08
Colin (106), stranger things have happened, in the last few weeks according to more than a few people I have spoken to the only difference I've heard is whether Costa is coming on loan or in a permenant move, we'll know by Thursday night.
Phil Walling
112 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:22:27
As things stand at present, I see Koeman as no more than 'Moyes with better players' !

I don't believe he is moe visionary or tactically superior to the Scotsman -just lucky to have picked up the baton in better times.

Danny Broderick
113 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:35:00

There were times under Moyes when we played some good joined up football. I'm thinking of Pienaar, Osman and Arteta in particular, playing little triangles and the Yak and Cahill finishing off the moves.

I'm sure we'd all settle for some of that if we can get Rooney, Sigurdsson and Bolasie supporting a top striker.

John Wilson
114 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:38:57
When I watched our last European game with Split, it was very nervous watching. The defence was at times like old grannies trying to pick up their shopping from their {'Split'} bags. It was like watching a very average Everton last season but with no benefit of Lukaku.

God help us against most of the Premier League teams this year notwithstanding the top 4/6/7. It's a bit like Corbyn having money to pay for everything but conceding he did not when he lied about saying he would abolish student loans.

Everton have clearly made a faux pas in not getting striker reinforcements especially given Koeman was (previously) looking for another striker to add to Lukaku to provide striker options. It's like some Everton fans must live in the same fairy land as Corbyn.

All these top Premier League teams have been getting in striker reinforcements and other reinforcements throughout this window. Everton's apparent transformation with getting in those players earlier on was clearly 'smoke and mirrors'.

Colin Glassar
115 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:40:44
Dave, I imagine (if it ever happened) it would only be a loan deal until the January window opens. Costa has made it quite clear he's desperate to return to Madrid.
John Wilson
116 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:43:00
We simply need more than one proven striker. How can we not?
Jim Harrison
117 Posted 26/08/2017 at 10:52:57
Phil W 112

Do you wait a certain amount of posts before inserting your arbitrary negative comment/baiting?

So far Koeman has managed to improve league performance in his one full season in charge and so far this season is undefeated. Ok, so far it hasn't been rip roaring, but getting through a very tough opening month in as best state as possible is the most important thing.

As for lack of attacking players? Koeman has signed Sigurdsson, Rooney, Bolasie, Klaassen & Sandro whilst stating that he wants another striker.

Perfect? Not by a long way, and there are plenty of areas that need improving (as the manager states frequently) but so far the primary aim has been achieved in securing European football beyond August.

This weekend's game against Chelsea will be tough given the amount of games played so far and the amount of injuries. If we avoid more injuries and get a point, it will, in my opinion, represent a good result. Decent break for internationals to get everyone back fit. Home to Spurs for a better idea of where we stand as a team.

Jon Withey
118 Posted 26/08/2017 at 11:22:05
A season before Moyes left, the football was pretty good – which is the reason Man Utd wanted him.

I don't think the Koeman/Moyes comparisons are far off – Koeman is making us difficult to beat first of all, which is what needed to happen after Martinez.

What's interesting is whether he can take it to the next stage and make us an attacking force – the jury is out; I just don't see the players for it right now. Perhaps a couple more during the window will change that.

Jack Convery
119 Posted 26/08/2017 at 11:39:09
A lot depends on Gueye's fitness – I for one would not take a chance on him. Besic has played one full game in over 12 months and there's a chance of over playing him.

My formation would be 4-5-1:

Holgate, Keane, Jagielka, Baines
Calvert-Lewin, Davies, Sigurdsson, Besic, Mirallas

Subs: Stekelenburg, Martina, Kenny, Williams, Lookman, Lennon

Rooney to get supported by Siggy at every opportunity and win us some free-kicks around the box for Siggy to score another cracker!

Phil Walling
120 Posted 26/08/2017 at 11:41:45
I guess I have to keep saying I FORECAST seventh but HOPE for better.

To me. seventh is the best we can expect from any manager given our still limited resources.

As far as Koeman is concerned,he is the pragmatist we so desperately needed after the 'Catalan Fantasist'. Just don't expect much entertaining football is all.

Alan Smith
121 Posted 26/08/2017 at 11:43:17
We're is the evidence that we are progressing? That we are now competing? Besides warm words from people calling us sceptical ones the moaners, try and produce evidence or logic based reasoning.

My logic tells me that selling very good players and replacing them with good to decent players makes the team slightly weaker. We finished 7th and we have two central midfielders that can't shoot, play a killer ball, or take a man on... and never get ahead of the ball. Schneiderlin doesn't even draw a man in before passing it.

As for this current board, we've allowed them to continue to sell to buy. Where's the USM money, the Sky money, the Arteta money? What is the 3-year plan? Someone explain to me. Has Moshiri or Koeman actually said there is one?

I have a 1-week plan. Get Costa with a one-season loan or £30m buyout clause for Atletico. Sign Koulibaly or Van Dijk. Let Barkley run his contract out and play him in central midfield. Get Sessegnon as cover for Baines.

That would impress me. Moshiri is so far being praised for carrying on the tried and trusted Kenwright plan. Moyes finished 4th; Martinez 5th. Both had semis finals or better.

Let's praise Koeman and Moshiri once they deliver. Please provide evidence or a thought process and prove me wrong. No strawman, blind faith or abuse please.

David Graves
122 Posted 26/08/2017 at 11:45:25

This is a football forum which avoids the two things that should never be discussed here - politics and religion. This is just as well otherwise we might have to read more complete nonsense like you've posted.

Clearly your football knowledge is as ill-informed, inaccurate and ignorant as your political knowledge. That is some achievement.

Mark Tanton
123 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:01:09
So, North Korea fires more missiles in response to USA South Korea joint manoeuvres.

My point is, how long will it take to get used to playing twice a week again?

Hywel Owen
124 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:01:45
What a load of bullshit!

Should Koeman depart to pastures greener, I'm sure that the Everton board will look at this thread and stick a pin in any one of the names in order to find a new manager. Such an array of experts!!!

John G Davies
125 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:07:23
John, 114.

Like the tory bus driving around with a banner promising £350 million given to the NHS every week after Brexit?

Chris Williams
126 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:12:13
Rightly or wrongly, I've come to the conclusion that progress need to be measurable season on season for it to be deemed moving forward. Last season was progress on the previous two, and possibly arrested further decline.

For this season to be deemed successful, I think we need to achieve 2 things. More points than last season, and to be much closer to top 4. The final position will be a consequence of that. Then it is a matter of degree which will be debated at the end of the season.

A trophy would be lovely as would some silky soccer. But top 4 is the target agreed with Moshiri, as far as I know.

Substance over style may need to suffice for the time being.

Colin Glassar
127 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:20:16
Chris, we were 15 points off top 4 last season. That's 5 more wins than last season, surely that's doable?

Phil, are you ready for the Blue invasion of Cyprus? I know you've only got a 10 bedroom Villa but you should be able to fit in a few hundred tents in your back garden, right?

Chris Williams
128 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:28:19

That assumes that everyone's performance will be the same as last season, which I guess might be unlikely. But yes it could be possible.

Part might be conceding less goals, which we need to do anyway. We will need to manage games better too, and have a bit of nark at places like Anfield. The question is can we score enough?

I hope Costa arrives by Thursday. Failing that, someone else who brings goals is a must.

Phil Bellis
129 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:32:47
James, Don
Re my post earlier...too many Krusovice lagers, I'm afraid

Given the average age of matchgoing Blues, the clock's ticking down for many; doubt we could be patient for another 22 years

The exclamation was to the grim reaper; I should have put quotation marks around the quotation, though I thought the reference to scythe was the telling point
My apologies to all offended, certainly not intended as a riposte to Don
James, I unintentionally appeared rude...what's your excuse?

Don Alexander
130 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:49:06
Cheers Phil! COYB!!
James Watts
131 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:49:18
Phil #129. See my post at #93, but for reference I put this after reading Will's advice:

Will. Ahhhhh thank you for that. That'll teach me to react when I've just woken up. I guess that makes me the 'bell'. Apologies Phil.

So my excuse? I was wrong as misread and misunderstood what you typed on first quick read through with my sleepy eyes. Plus I was trying to help out Don as felt he was being picked on with your random comment. I now know better.

Brent Stephens
132 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:50:37
Hywel (#124) – "Should Koeman depart to pastures greener, I'm sure that the Everton board will look at this thread and stick a pin in any one of the names in order to find a new manager". But if we had to appoint one from here, mine would be Steve Ferns.

Phil Bellis
133 Posted 26/08/2017 at 12:59:16
Been a long week lads, hopefully a decent ending tomorrow in London

Cheers James etc
I too had just crawled out of my pit, doing my best Sean of the Dead impression, logged on and scanned recent posts

Right, let's add a couple more caveats to using t'internet...
Never post on ToffeeWeb when you've
...been drinking
...just woken up

James Watts
134 Posted 26/08/2017 at 13:04:16
Phil #133. Just woken up, agreed! That has got me in trouble before *makes note not to look at TW before 3rd coffee*. As for drinking? Nah, those posts are always the best!

And yeah, agreed. 4-1 Everton. Sig (just from 35 yards this time), Jags, DCL and Rooney the scorers. Chelsea's an offside last minute consolation.

Darren Hind
135 Posted 26/08/2017 at 13:06:48
Martin Mason,

I remember being critical of Martinez from the get-go, but I always supported his teams on matchdays – just as I support Koeman's.

In a lifetime of following this club, I have only ever come across one Evertonian who publically willed us to lose, because he didn't rate the manager. It's because I found it so incredibly hard to get my head around, I still remember who it was. I still clearly remember you willing us to lose the semi final against Man Utd because you were worried we may win the cup and Martinez kept his job.

Supporting and applauding mediocrity can only ever result in prolonging it and I and other like-minded supporters will not be part of it.

I understand people supporting managers. I have a healthy respect for people who have enough about them to criticise them when they are serving up shite.... but I can't be doing with sanctimonious faux outrage when the current manager is criticised. Not from somebody who openly wished for his predecessor to lose at Wembley so he could get his wish and see him sacked.

Both Martinez and Koeman have served up turgid uninspiring dross. (I don't think anybody going to dispute that one?) Bleating and protesting about criticism of one when you were clearly prepared to enter a Faustian pact to see the back of another makes you sound like you feel a desperate need to be vindicated... That will never happen.

John Pierce
136 Posted 26/08/2017 at 13:11:30
John Davies. Re comment last night. No problems. Thank you for taking the time to say something. No offence taken.

Your patience with this brand of football is enduring it seems. That alone is admirable. I once, was that sort of Toffee but as a club we have won nothing for a good number of years.

Albeit under varying expectations we have got nowhere near sating that rich thirst.

A gap, which justifies my harder line towards the club as a whole nowdays. The investment and realignment of expectations from the club itself grounds for a more critical eye.

My view has now altered completely. Despite the trend trophies can be won with a defensive outlook, the better exponents have much better players and much superior managers. We have neither.

Simply put much easier to start offensively and close a game down than the opposite.

We will see. Last season on these pages I said 10 games (top 7), still in the league cup and through to the Europa groups. All three no excuses. If not then we've stalled and I will start to cast envious glances at other managers.

I will tout them with all fervour!

John G Davies
138 Posted 26/08/2017 at 13:31:31
It's far from patience John, believe me.
Anyone who is around me in and after the game will testify to that.
Just a quiet confidence that the manager will get it right.
I'm prepared to give him time to do that. Of course if he doesn't he's out. Goes without saying.

Ciarán McGlone
139 Posted 26/08/2017 at 13:32:36
Last week it was... "They're not match fit, give them time."

This week, it's "They're all dead tired from playing a couple of matches."

Can't wait for "The dog ate Koeman's clipboard."

John G Davies
140 Posted 26/08/2017 at 13:34:42
Two different themes from last week to this week Ciaran.

But at least yours stays the same.

John Wilson
141 Posted 26/08/2017 at 16:15:26
David Graves @ 122: Corbyn was an analogy, not a discussion. Learn the difference between the two. Political knowledge is irrelevant therefore. As for football knowledge, you make no point which makes you pointless.

John G Davies @ 125, similar to Graves, D. as above, I can't very well read your minds for the point so it would be beneficial to me if you were to make that point. In any event, Corbyn was an analogy to Everton fans living in cloud cuckoo land if we/ they think that there won't be a considerable challenge in the Premier League without striker reinforcements. It is quite negligent actually if we're expected to do even reasonably well this season.

John Wilson
142 Posted 26/08/2017 at 16:25:00
Koeman deserves at least this season to prove himself. I don't blame him for not getting striker reinforcements as he knew we needed them even when we had Lukaku.

I am just bored of seeing an average Everton side relative to the Premier League main teams or even top 10 teams. If we can't score we won't win, so what good is it being able to prevent the opponent from scoring if we ourselves can't score enough when opportunities avail? Look at the chances we had against Split.

Rooney just is not up to the task anymore; I look at Lookman and think he is simply not good enough yet. Yes, we have Sigurdsson as a threat now but what good is he where we have no instrumental target man (No 9)?

Darren Hind
143 Posted 26/08/2017 at 16:41:43
Anyone got the odds on our game tomorrow?

A few on here (including me) had us to win and draw at the Etihad at 10/1 + 5/1 last week, although I was late and only got 9s.

The football may not be worth watching, but I reckon taking advantage of silly odds for a draw at the grounds of the big boys may prove to be quite profitable this season.

Always back the win as well, though; our embarrassing run at these grounds has to end soon and you'll kick yourself if you like a bet and you weren't on.

Ciarán McGlone
144 Posted 26/08/2017 at 16:53:16
7/1 to win and 7/2 the draw.

Chelsea are looking shaky at the moment, but I fear we'll withdraw into our shell and play very deep.

Still cant ignore the value of the odds though.. tenner on each.

David Graves
145 Posted 26/08/2017 at 16:59:23
Okay, John Wilson, let's start with your first presentation of football "knowledge": "The defence was at times like old grannies trying to pick up their shopping from their {'Split'} bags."

First reading, I actually struggled to understand what you had written given your liberal use of grammar and punctuation. I am however prepared to try and interpret a meaning but struggle with your "analogy".

WTF are you actually trying to say?

Paul Tran
146 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:02:50
Darren, Skybet have us 6/1 to win and 10/3 for a draw. 16/1 for us to win and Sigurdsson to score. On Thursday they had 9/1 for Gylfi to score from outside the box. Kerching!
Mike Gaynes
147 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:03:30
Phil B #129... a bit of belated reassurance... as one who has been ducking and dodging the scythe for nearly two years, I took your comment exactly as you intended and in fact got a great laugh out of it.
Martin Mason
148 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:05:44
Darren@135, you didn't answer my questions. What do you do about this imagined mediocrity other than moan? What sets these inferior Evertonians that accept "mediocrity" and do nothing, from you, who doesn't accept mediocrity yet also does nothing? The answer isn't something I've done, the answer is that you do nothing but complain about the club and demean other fans in the process.

Last time I checked we were unbeaten this season, have made some excellent buys, are playing to full houses, are exceptionally strong at all levels below the first team, are in the long process of moving into a new ground in a superb location and have achieved a financial stability not seen for almost 50 years. I personally don't see much to moan about; we have a way to go for sure but good fans will support the club in the efforts it's making to turn the ship around. Good fans will do as John Wilson observes above and give the management some time to do this.

Paul Tran
149 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:07:06
Darren, our lumpen football will keep us under the bookies' radar. So we can pocket the loot until they wake up. Gonna be my new bet to replace Lukaku first scorer against the non-stop six.
Paul Tran
152 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:13:02
Koeman has just finished 3rd at Goodwood.

OK, dat ish rayshing.

Steavey Buckley
153 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:13:04
Everton are evolving with missing links. Over to you, Ronald Koeman, for the answer.
Tom Bowers
160 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:24:17
If we had beaten City and then Split in good style or any style for that matter some people would still moan. These are the people who condemned Martinez before he got started and are doing the same to Koeman. Everton are a work in progress under Koeman and with Moshiri on board they are starting to look decent enough to challenge the ''usual suspects''.

They forget that some very strong assets are missing (Coleman, Funes and Bolasie along with McCarthy who we could do with to replace Schneiderlin against Chelsea). Injuries and suspensions can upset the best laid plans but Everton have a good core of newcomers chomping at the bit to come in and prove their worth.

Chelsea will be a big task and it is a place where we have had very little success but even though they were surprised against Burnley they may just get surprised again given the Pickford, Keane, Rooney and Sigurdsson class additions to the team.

Geoff Evans
162 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:27:12
Lot of doom amd gloom merchants on here aren't there? Chelsea 1 Everton 2, CL double.
No worries!
Darren Hind
164 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:34:49

Leicester are 5/1 for the draw tonight and 10/1 to win. Having taken 12/1 for top six I had to follow them

I think you are right, The bookies are so obsessed with top six that we are going under the radar. The bookies have gone soft !

What price will I get for hell freezing over ???

Phil Walling
165 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:34:51
Colin @ 127. You won't believe this but I leave for Blighty 3 days before the game in Limassol!

Blues should have little problem with this one but sorry to miss it (and be able to offer you Cypriot hospital – although most of my neighbours are Russians!)

Brent Stephens
166 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:37:52
Phil #181 "Colin @ 127. You won't believe this but I leave for Blighty 3 days before the game in Limassol!"

Just leave the keys under the mat, Phil.

John G Davies
167 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:43:06
He lives in a flat in Breck Road😁
Paul Tran
168 Posted 26/08/2017 at 18:08:55
Darren, there's always an edge. It's harder to find these days, but there's always an edge. Early season is often a good time, results are less predictable and the odds compilers have got their patterns sorted yet. At the moment a good one up here is backing whoever Rangers play. It's a bit like England in tournaments, the weight of money scares the bookies and they're forced to offer a bit of value.

Make hay, my friend, make hay!

John G Davies
169 Posted 26/08/2017 at 18:14:25
That's why the bookies always come out on top Paul.
That and the newish trend of refusing to take a half ways decent bet.

"I will have to call the office... Sorry we can't take that."

Looking at the farce (sorry, fight) odds.
Bit of value in the grouped rounds market.

Paul Tran
170 Posted 26/08/2017 at 18:19:16
Yes, John and when you have a good run, they refuse to take bets (Boylesports and Paddy Power), even at my meagre stakes!
Colin Glassar
171 Posted 26/08/2017 at 18:31:50
No probs Phil, I can pick a lock. Just leave your credit card on the table.
Paul Ferry
172 Posted 26/08/2017 at 20:55:41
Far far more egregious, Martin (#148) than Darren's silence so far is his allegation that you posted on here that you wanted Everton to lose a semi-final.

Can you please reassure us all that you in fact did not say that? Maybe Darren has mixed something up? We all do that now and then.

So, again, Martin please reassure all Evertonians on here that you never said that you wanted Everton to lose a semi-final.

If you did say this, then you should never ever come on this fabulous prize-winning Evertonian forum to post again.

If you did not say this, I apologize for asking the question.

Darren Hind
173 Posted 26/08/2017 at 21:15:56
Martin Mason,

Sorry I don't like ducking questions, I simply didn't see yours.

Anyway "What do you do about this IMAGINED (?) mediocrity other than moan?"

Well, as a mere paying customer, I do what most disgruntled customers do. I register my discontent. I have done it by mail and I have done it to Koeman's face.

I took a group of youngsters up to Finch Farm last season. We were distant observers when, all of a sudden, Honest Ron himself appeared. Right amongst us.

Everyone paid due deference, but being somebody who managed to get over his shyness at nine (months), I decided "This is my chance." I asked him to explain the defensive mindset we have adopted.

In fairness, he was charm itself. He spent a good 30 seconds explaining to me that these things take time – Jam tomorrow.

I have to say, I was taken aback that he even answered my question; he probably gets asked a thousand questions if he stops to fill his car up... but at least I asked it.

Which brings me back to you and your shameless hypocrisy.

These "good fans" you refer to... do they want us to lose semi-finals? Do they exonerate the manager of all blame after 12 months of Zombie football?

I have no problem at all with people who accept shite football. They are limited to what they can do. It's people like you who embrace and applaud it I can't fathom.

You happy clappers hold this club back. If enough of you keep giving the message that everything is wonderful in the garden, why would anybody would want to change it?

Settle for shite and they will serve it to you in buckets; applaud it and they will deliver it by the cart load.

Paul Tran
174 Posted 26/08/2017 at 21:45:31
Good story, Darren. Out of interest, apart from his charm, how clear was he, how much sense did he make, allowing for the fact that you have reservations about his style/methods?
Graham Mockford
175 Posted 26/08/2017 at 21:56:46

In your conversation with Ronald did you mention the 'zombie football'? Surely someone as self professedly bold would have given him both barrels?

Maybe you saved it for the email?


A concerned happy clapper.

John G Davies
176 Posted 26/08/2017 at 22:24:27

Dear Ron,

I am not at all happy with your style of football.
Please change it pronto.

Yours Sincerely

Tunbridge Wells.

Brent Stephens
177 Posted 26/08/2017 at 22:39:49
Dear Disgruntled of Tunbridge hWellsh

Thank you for your conshern. I'm quite new to thish game sho pleashe forgive me. I'd be happy if you came round to Goodishon and talked me through the bashics of this game. Should I stop clapping now? Is thish face gloomy enough.

John G Davies
178 Posted 26/08/2017 at 22:46:34
Dear Ron,

Now listen you Frankie Howard.
I'm not having this style of football, UNDERSTAND?
It's zombie football.
You have got the happy clappers clapping happy and it's not on

I am sure you remember me from the convo at Finch Farm, get it sorted.

All the best.

Don Alexander
179 Posted 26/08/2017 at 00:03:11
Nice to read that Koeman was "charm itself" even when meeting his self-appointed nemesis (#173) but in fairness it would've been beyond charmless to address any Everton fan as a "straw-man" "happy-clapper" of "zombie-football" wouldn't it?

And Chris Williams (#104), great post from the real world.

PS ....... Just woken up personally!

Jim Jennings
180 Posted 26/08/2017 at 00:06:53
"If you did say this, then you should never ever come on this fabulous prize-winning Evertonian forum to post again."

Paul Ferry,

When you develop, run and moderate your own forum you decide who should "never ever come" on it again. Til then, get back in your box.

Dermot Byrne
181 Posted 27/08/2017 at 01:02:49
Darren, the foundation of your whole argument seems to be that if we express our frustration or disatisfaction enough, then things will change and they will be forced to be better. To you that would involve change of manager.

I think this falls down for several reasons.

1. The influence of individual club fans is less now than ever be before. Forums like this have no impact, meetings between individual fans at Finch Farm even less and booing or shouting at games little positive effect.

2. Every club's fans apart from a few at top of league at a moment in time feel the same. If we all do what you say, doh, nothing changes. Us Everton fans different. Umm. Probably not.

3. How we play? Let's say manager changes. OK, that becomes then hugely subjective. To me the clever passing at the end of the game last Thurs was dull. To you? Who knows. You hate this, I think it clever. You like that, I think it naive. So new manager is good or bad.

So in the end I am clumsily saying that:

1. You can moan all ya like but as a fan, or even as a group of fans, you are utterly powerless. If you go, your role is to provide atmosphere. If you watch through Sky/BT, you job is to consume. Either way your job is to pay silly amounts to enable payment of even sillier amounts to those in "the game". If you never pay one cent to a PL interest (me now)you are either wise or a bad fan.

2. You demand for change and reasons for it are fine. Your arguments about why you are right are yours. And those who disagree are the same. But to take your argument further and five the impression of benign acceptance is silly, because of point 1 above.

Dermot Byrne
182 Posted 27/08/2017 at 01:05:35
Should read "give the impression of benign acceptance"
Phil Bellis
183 Posted 27/08/2017 at 01:30:33
Mike (147)
Thank you...("never knowingly giving offence, except to kopites")
Don Alexander
184 Posted 27/08/2017 at 01:42:37
Quite agree Dermot. It must be weird to have to adopt such a positive/optimistic (his words) guise as Darren claims he does when the team are actually playing, whilst all the while reviling what he's watching.

I mean if regularly winning, remaining unbeaten, and a fundamentally new team defending with obvious success gives him no pleasure AT ALL just why does he bother?

Or is he the actual 21st Century Schizoid Man?

Dermot Byrne
185 Posted 27/08/2017 at 02:03:07
Don, just fed up that team is not playing to his expectations or view of our history and place in the game. Fair enough.

It is the implication that those who disagree are somehow apologists propping up a system that, if we all joined Darren, we could overthrow and once again by "Kings" that I question. Simplistic nonsense driven by a true blessing heart methinks.

Paul Ferry
186 Posted 27/08/2017 at 02:37:51
Jim Jennings - 180.

Real classy response that lad. Shame it wasn't as balanced as mine offering an apology if I was wrong.

You don't see the irony do you or maybe you are incapable of seeing it. Your response is every bit as dogmatic and what is the word pithy as you think mine to be.

Yes you're right I don't run this forum. But I have a right to express an opinion about what is said on here. Happens all the time (hint: read this thread through). If I think Martin Mason should not be on an Evertonian thread for wanting Everton to lose then I'll fucking say it. Okay? Am I making myself clear? That is my opinion and your tart high-horse sentences are nothing but an annoying irritation.

Martin Mason, if he bothers to say he did or he didn't (you see Mr Jennings there is a wide door open there), will I'm sure fall back on the old 'free speech stuff'. He has done so before. Maybe you Mr Jennings might take note and be a little less instant bluster and pious if you ever again choose to aim one of your arrows at me from your box.

Darren Hind
187 Posted 27/08/2017 at 07:44:35
Dermot Byrne

What on earth are you talking about ?

"The foundation of my whole argument" ? . . That's right up there with when you took the trouble to come on here and express your faux outrage about me "writing Klaassen off" - when you know full well I hadn't even mentioned him.

Lets get this straight "my argument" was a response . .a RESPONSE to a direct question. "What do you do ?" . . The question is still up there . . .wanna check ?

I don't at any stage say everyone who is prepared to give Koeman more time is a "happy clapper", but I stand absolutely behind my belief that people who are applauding this crap are.

This isn't even confined to a football argument. It applies to all walks of life. If you pat somebody on the back every day. they will feel they are pleasing you and will continue to do the same things. . . You don't see that ?

The "clever passing" at the end of the game on Thursday is exactly what I would expect from any team. Exhausted Second rate opposition needed to score twice and had ten minutes to do it. . . but for one sublime moment of brilliance, the preceding eighty minutes had been business as usual.
The bare minimum I would call it. . . "Clever passing" to you call it.
Trust me when I tell you. If we pass the ball that well against premiership opposition today I will be clapping louder than you.

To answer another question

No I did not refer to our style of play as "zombie football". Dull uninspiring football only becomes Zombie football when its served up for Thirty, Forty . . Fifty games.

Anybody see our style of play changing ? Na of course it wont.

I guess that's life, some people want excitement and joy, others are more "positive" and will settle for contentment and premier league respectability . . even if its served up on a cracked ugly plate

Laurie Hartley
188 Posted 27/08/2017 at 09:38:41
Phil # 105 - "who said the game had to be entertaining"

Certainly not Jose the special one:-

"Everyone said that Ajax was pretty, and that it matters a lot about the beauty of the game, and blah blah blah," Mourinho added.
"It is beautiful for me not to give the opponent what he wants."

Dermot Byrne
189 Posted 27/08/2017 at 09:38:51
Darren: you will get a crick in your neck as my point whizzes over your angry head.

To waste a sunny Sunday morning stepping into your angry pit would be silly at my age. I would try and make a declaration not a to respond to your posts anymore (as if that would matter one jot), but it would I be like saying you won't poke a sore tooth with your tongue. But for rest of today. Maybe. Anyway things to do before I half heartedly watch the game.

Martin Mason
190 Posted 27/08/2017 at 10:25:37
Darren@173, so the answer is like I said; you do nothing but waste your time complaining on forums like this. Remember that you are just a fan and have no power or influence over what happens at the club. You have no qualifications to criticise a professional like Koeman or any other fan of this club and that is why you're a fan and not the manager. Your contempt for other fans of the club who, unlike you, genuinely support the team is a disgrace and shame on you.

Remember that "mediocrity" is just an opinion that you have not fact. The reality is that we are a strong team in the best league in the world with a future beckoning that most teams can only dream about. The unfortunate thing is that we have a very tiny minority of fans like you who don't have the understanding of the game to realise that turning Everton around from mid table poorly financed, low quality to the very top will take time possibly 5 years. In between now and then there will disappointments which good supporters will accept.

Unbeaten this season
Very good buys this window.
Playing to full houses.
Exceptionally strong at all development levels.
In the process of moving into a new ground in a superb location.
Have achieved a financial stability not seen for almost 50 years.

Darren Hind
191 Posted 27/08/2017 at 10:29:01
You addressed me Dermot (for the umpteenth time).

I Ignored your other stuff because I felt you you were just sounding off, trying to gain kudos without ever actually saying anything, I even ignored the nonsensical and totally fabricated nonsense you posted about me writing Klaassen off.

But be assured. I'm not angry, had a great day yesterday and will spend the day with my family, You know, all the things you do when you put the ball away. Then hopefully I will see a good positive display from the boys.

If you can stick to your promise to yourself and not to ask me questions. You can be very certain, you will not get answers you don't like

Ray Robinson
192 Posted 27/08/2017 at 10:33:43
Hear, hear, Martin. I find Darren's view of other's opinions patronising and don't understand how someone who clearly dislikes so much what he sees with his own eyes continues to pay for a season ticket. Do what other dissatisfied customers do Darren and withdraw your custom. Moaning on here won't achieve anything - if enough people think like you and stop going, things would certainly change!
John Daley
193 Posted 27/08/2017 at 10:39:22
"Your contempt for other fans of the club who, unlike you, genuinely support the team is a disgrace and shame on you."

Just because Darren doesn't rate the current boss and chooses to criticise his methods and performance on a public forum he can simply be discounted as a piss poor fan, rather than merely a disgruntled one? Utter nonsense.

What counts as 'genuine support' in your book, Martin? Going the game for years, irrespective of whether you think the gaffer of the moment is a meff or a great, getting solidly behind the team when you're actually sat inside Goodison, raising your kids and grandkids to be Evertonians and taking them to the game with you? None of that matters if you happen to point out Koeman's overly cautious set-up doesn't get your heart going like the clappers?

Dermot Byrne
194 Posted 27/08/2017 at 10:41:13
Paul Tran
195 Posted 27/08/2017 at 10:48:43
Can we pack in this good fan/bad fan nonsense? There's a few people on here I enjoy disagreeing with, which is is part of the fun of sites like this. Doesn't make any of us better Blues than anyone else.

How about debating player purchases, tactics and strategy rather than the dirge of solution-free negativity and personal stuff?

Martin Mason
196 Posted 27/08/2017 at 11:51:11
Paul, I think there has to be some challenge to silly descriptions such as "happy clappy" pointed to other fans whose only crime is to not agree with you. How to define good fan bad fan? very subjective but best way is to use the word "supporter" and then it becomes much easier. Does constantly demeaning the club, its management and other supporters come under the definition of supporter or not? Like Darren I am unqualified to criticise Koeman as he does; maybe after this season when the facts will trump opinion. Constructive criticism is a must but I'd say that the cracked record approach is a personal weakness.

Right though, enough said.

Brian Williams
197 Posted 27/08/2017 at 12:06:04
Moaning on here won't achieve anything - if enough people think like you and stop going, things would certainly change!

That single statement says it all for me!

Andrew Keatley
198 Posted 27/08/2017 at 12:10:48
Well said John Daley (193).

Disagreements are part and parcel of life, and suggesting another fan's support is not genuine - or that they are a disgrace and should be ashamed because their ideas about how to support the club are different from yours - is a very reductive argument.

John G Davies
199 Posted 27/08/2017 at 12:31:38
Paul Tran,
Spot on, no time for all this better Blue bollocks.

We all have different opinions.
Darren dies give it out sometimes, as we all do. He can be descriptive( 😀) over people who hold different opinions. I am sure he does it in good spirit. As long as he takes the bit he gets back in the same spirit everyone's a winner.

One thing can't be denied. He is Blue through and through to the core.

Darren Hind
200 Posted 27/08/2017 at 13:50:49

I get numerous posts from people who tell me I'm a miserable bastard who should stop moaning, they think its perfectly okay to shout down people without ever challenging the points raised. they think its okay to misrepresent my argument, they even think it's okay fabricate utter nonsense in order to try to give their posts some credence. I accept it, I could walk away but I don't believe debates should ever be allowed to become one sided. I know 95% of these posts come from the same 1/2 dozen people, I often choose to ignore, but I get a little dismayed when the people who freely attack then start bleating because I have used terms like happy clappers.

If you can offer me a better term for people who defend and praise the pug ugly stuff we watch. I will gladly adopt it.

Like others you try desperately hard to misrepresent my argument and stand point . .its because you cant counter it. I don't complain about financial stability or the prospect of moving to a new stadium . .I don't even make demands on where we finish. I have three complaints about this Manager and to make things clear enough for even you to understand them I will spell them out again.

1) We play dull unadventurous football under this manager.

2) We play dull unadventurous football under this manager

3) We play dull and unadventurous football under this manager.

I will gladly debate with people who have a different view to me. I have no problem with them calling me a moaning fucker and feel it is perfectly fair to reciprocate by calling those who defend this dross Happy clappers.
If Koeman got more adventurous and started to entertain us, I would stop moaning and start clapping with the best of them.

You on the other hand were more than happy to see us lose a semi final even though you knew it would break a million Evertonian hearts, many of whom have never seen success. . .Simply because you didn't rate the manager . . and you were desperate to be right -

See the difference ? No ? . .didn't think so

John G Davies
201 Posted 27/08/2017 at 14:16:16
Argumentative twat though 😁

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