Professor Denise Barrett-Baxendale says that Everton hope to build a stadium that “will sit beautifully as the Fourth Grace on Liverpool's waterfront” with their proposed new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.
Speaking at the MIPIM property conference in Cannes, France, on Tuesday as part of the Liverpool City Region official delegation, Everton's CEO spoke of the “steady progress” that the club has been making ”despite the complexities” of the £500m scheme which still has a target date of 2023 for completion.
She said that securing the funding is the most important objective at the moment because staying at Goodison Park is not an option.
"We're the most confident we ever have been at securing funding for the site,” she said but was unable to reveal with whom Everton are currently in talks.
Professor Barrett-Baxendale stressed that a new stadium, which still has a planned capacity of 52,000, “future-proofed for safe-standing”, is "crucial" for Everton to compete with the Premier League giants and that the heritage of the docks, a UNESCO World Heritage site, is very important to the.
She said that the stadium will be developed in sympathy to the dock — the club wants to be respectful and reflective of the maritime heritage of the site in terms of design” and that club want to create "a natural emerging stadium that comes out of the dock.” The ground will open up an area that's currently closed to the public.
Meanwhile, the Professor said that Everton have invested £8m in the area around Goodison Park and that they want to do something "unique" in Walton to give something back.
Element of the Blues' current stadium are expected to be carried through in the design and feel of Bramley-Moore Dock DBB. “Goodison Park is magical, so we want to capture those bits that are uniquely ‘Everton' and take them with us,” Barrett-Baxendale explained.
“It will be a fortress; an intimidating place to watch football. It will have a lot of Goodison in it. The fans want the club to recreate as much of Goodison as they can in the waterfront. There will be a ‘Toffee trail' from Goodison to the new stadium.”
The second phase of consultation later is planned for later this year with designs due to be revealed before the end of 2019.
Reader Comments (192)
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
2 Posted 14/03/2019 at 07:14:59
3 Posted 14/03/2019 at 07:23:26
4 Posted 14/03/2019 at 07:29:24
The new stadium seems to be used as a distraction from our shambles on the pitch. Watching the Champions League games recently just goes to show how far we are away from joining the elite teams. New stadium or not, we are light years from being contenders again.
ps: DBB is a professor of what exactly? Just out of interest.
5 Posted 14/03/2019 at 07:43:19
This is because she is a Dr, not medical, but as a PhD in biomechanics. So, the first thought is, "Do we have to preface everything to do with Denise with the title Professor? Would this be unprofessional?"
The second thought is it is fantastic for her to be making such a presentation, which keeps us in the "public arena", ie, the press, which is good for our sponsors and so is good for our club.
6 Posted 14/03/2019 at 08:00:59
Another bit of pr spin shite after another shite performance.
7 Posted 14/03/2019 at 08:03:06
8 Posted 14/03/2019 at 08:08:20
9 Posted 14/03/2019 at 08:20:32
10 Posted 14/03/2019 at 08:31:50
Kev is correct though, this conference was organised before last week, although I'm wondering what will come first, the new stadium or a new railway station for the city of Liverpool? (This is also being discussed at this conference.)
All part of the bigger plan no doubt, with Bramley-Moore Dock hopefully being the catalyst for great things to happen for the City in general, and Everton's only hope being a “Big Uzbek Gangster” waiting in the shadows with his steel!
11 Posted 14/03/2019 at 08:56:50
Well, that somewhat devalues the title of ‘Professor.
I might add some bollocks like that on my CV.
12 Posted 14/03/2019 at 09:00:27
The powers that be have never had their fingers on the pulse of redevelopment from day one. 20+ years of ignoring the elephant in the room. No vision whatsoever to see beyond the relatively tiny obstruction of a few end terraces on the Bullens Road side, and a blind adherence to "only a new build will do" (only if funded by someone else that is).
Fact is, Bramley-MD was only prompted by the attraction of funding through a Commonwealth Games bid, that failed, and has resulted in years of nothing, punctuated by consultation, and consultation about consultation.
Several years ago, I attended a couple of meetings with Elstone trying to outline the potential of Goodison Park, and his only answer was that they simply couldnt afford it. End of story, the ultimate debate-killer, "we're skint mate". My response was always that if you cant afford to add 10-15k net new seats to GP, how are you ever going to afford 50-55k elsewhere, without massive naming rights, an Olympic's/CWG bid and/or a high-value enabler to fund most of it, a la kings dock?
He simply wasn't interested. The club didn't have a pot to piss in, and he certainly wasn't interested in overcoming any of the planning or funding obstacles, and prefered to sit on his fat pay-check and do nothing until a Mr Moneybags could be found.
So it has never been the case that reconfiguring was not an option. It has simply been allowed to become the perceived wisdom, because the club wanted a freeby, and to that end have therefore never allowed it be contested. They have never conducted anything approaching a full study of Goodison Park's potential since John Moores was at the club.
Now we are facing a potential £500m bill for what appears to be a good but relatively basic 52k stadium, with no trimmings like a sliding roof or pitch for multi-purpose use (which you would expect for that outlay, in that location), with no sign of any enabling funding from external developments or a commonwealth games. Not to mention a conspicuously non-existent transport plan, which tbh should've been completed before any commitment was made to the site.
As regards the part about being able to increase the Bramley-Moore Dock stadium capacity in the future, Meis himself has said several times that this is not possible in his scheme. He's designing a finished stadium to fill the site to the club's brief. (Upper tier C-values of 60mm would also suggest he's maxed-out in terms of expansion), and the only expansion will come from safe-standing, which will be subject to a change in legislation regarding capacity-increase ratios.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the ambition of Bramley-Moore Dock, it's possibilities and the whole vision etc. However, at £500m, I'm not entirely convinced that what we are seeing is best value for money, and the continued referral to Goodison Park's redevelopment viability as "not possible" or "would've been done years ago" is entirely revisionist, disingenuous, inaccurate and dare I say, maybe even smacks of a bit of the Destination Kirkbyesque hard-sell to me. If BMD is the real deal, it will sell itself.
If costs are running away with themselves, firstly, how and why is this happening? Secondly, at what point does the cost-benefit ratio, or even basic affordability collapse? Of course, those extensive redevelopment studies carried out by the club over the past 20+ yrs will allow a quick and simple comparison. Shame they don't exist isn't it?
The first stage in any stadium planning process is always: "What can we do with our existing site?" We simply copy-and-pasted the gospel according to Wyness & Elstone, and that fundamental flaw in the process has come back to bite them on the arse time and time again.
Yes, the Russian might yet push this over the line, but can we really afford it, how will it affect future team spends, and will it really be any better than what £100-250m could achieve at GP (especially as this could readily get it up to 60k+ capacity)?
13 Posted 14/03/2019 at 09:05:11
16 Posted 14/03/2019 at 09:40:51
I should live long enough to see either, thank you very much. Mr Moshiri... In your own time, when you're ready, etc.
I'm still sticking with my original prediction of £600M+ and season 2024-25.
17 Posted 14/03/2019 at 09:51:02
We will behind before we start and have a mid-sized ground for a mid-level club. If Bramley-Moore Dock is too small, look somewhere else perhaps?
18 Posted 14/03/2019 at 10:42:34
19 Posted 14/03/2019 at 10:46:42
On the other hand, maybe you just need to grow a pair and give credit were it is due.
20 Posted 14/03/2019 at 11:11:05
Moshiri won't fund it himself so where is the funding coming from? If we don't get the money there is no stadium.
I don't mean to be negative but we are skint, especially when you consider Goodison has been crumbling for years... and all we do is just repaint it.
21 Posted 14/03/2019 at 11:36:55
For me, it's all good news and another small step towards achieving our dream. Some people need to get a grip, seriously.
22 Posted 14/03/2019 at 11:44:17
24 Posted 14/03/2019 at 12:23:55
That said, Barrett-Baxendale is only doing her job in raising awareness of the Bramley-Moore Dock development on a European stage and hopefully promoting interest and possible investment. She sure doesn't deserve the stick above for this.
25 Posted 14/03/2019 at 12:26:00
26 Posted 14/03/2019 at 12:37:20
Anyone know what the 'Fourth Grace' is. Are there Three Graces already on the waterfront? What is a Grace?
27 Posted 14/03/2019 at 12:43:02
Time rolls on and still no funding for it, still, at least some optimistic noises on that front. Are the financiers waiting until Brexit has been settled?
28 Posted 14/03/2019 at 13:15:46
29 Posted 14/03/2019 at 13:28:04
30 Posted 14/03/2019 at 13:33:55
31 Posted 14/03/2019 at 13:43:48
I can still remember the dreadful block that was seriously proposed by the Blue Union to be built in the school grounds, with a corridor leading to the ground, suggested to be the place where new facilities would be located? Talk about building in obsolescence! Project Desperation. Perhaps if a White Hart Lane-like project for the complete rebuild was proposed we would be in the right ballpark – how much is that costing (£800 million plus)?
Rather like Mrs May, you need to acknowledge that those days are gone, the policy is dead, we are moving on.
33 Posted 14/03/2019 at 14:37:35
Formed in Everton.
Played in Anfield.
Removed to Walton.
Regenerated in Vauxhall.
Very little about Everton other than the name... so why not 'Tranmere' now?
34 Posted 14/03/2019 at 15:42:34
Everton have already knocked down several dozens of houses at Goodison in their history, did you complain then? The club predates any local residents, and I would assume that anyone moving next to a football ground might expect the possibility, and to be suitably reimbursed of course. However, the point is the land-take required to more than match the 52k proposals need not be much deeper than the road itself, with some additional space for right-of-light and circulation. This combined with an extended Park end would readily yield 55k, and all the corporate and executive capacity of Bramley-Moore Dock. Hardly prohibitive when compared to a £500m new build debt.
As far as Bramley-Moore Dock attracting financial support, so far I think you'll find that the vast majority of that went out of the window with the failed Commonwealth Games bid. Ultimately the costs will have to be met by the club. Hence the reason why we're still waiting to see anything of substance from the club several years after this was first announced.
I'm sure you'll remember that it was the Kirkby project that attracted and deserved the "desperation" moniker, when the concerns of the KEIOC and later Blue Union campaigns were proved to be fully vindicated. I'm not really aware of the concept proposals your talking about, but I'm sure that they'd be at least as salubrious as having a sewage plant as a neighbour.
You also need to read up on the new White Hart Lane project, its costs and what has been revealed about Bramley-Moore Dock, their respective design features and quality. Perhaps then you can take a more informed stance instead of telling someone who has done, to move on. I can remember Wyness telling me I needed to move on too. Where's he now?
35 Posted 14/03/2019 at 15:55:23
'Own fab four', 'the City's all ours', 'Fourth Grace'. Let's actually see something of progress on and off the pitch so that we might have something of a foundation on which to base the prodding of the RS. Until then, it makes us look desperate and daft.
36 Posted 14/03/2019 at 15:58:20
37 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:10:46
I would think a sparkling new stadium at the docks would be a fantastic place for concerts? Thats a sizable revenue stream missed!
Id think in the summer when the pitch isnt being used (so to speak), you could book some awfully big names and fill that place quite easily? The revenue over the years would cut into the borrowed balance in a really healthy manner.
Why are we not doing this?
Liverpool, to my perspective afar, is a Mecca for music - thank you Paul, John, Ringo and George. Surely bands would love to throw a concert in Liverpool, in a brand new kick-ass, shiny stadium? The money would be big.
38 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:12:59
39 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:14:53
I think the Echo Arena got there first, though Bramley-Moore Dock could hold significantly more people, of course.
40 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:20:23
Put that one down to dopey American. I forgot about your Echo aArena.
Saw some great clips on YouTube of Paul McCartney playing with David Groehl there. Looked an awesome venue.
Liverpool probably wouldn't want two competing venues for music, making one location obsolete.
42 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:24:04
43 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:30:11
I might be wrong here but I suspect many of you will be thinking like myself. We wanted capacity and an awesome atmosphere within the ground, to do this surely the had to optimize and spend towards that end?
The exterior of the building needs to be presentable and not much more. If the council is demanding a marble-clad Taj Mahal to stand alongside the three graces, but a mile down the road, how much of the budget is going into this folly at the council's demand?
44 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:32:18
For events requiring greater capacity or a different experience than the Echo Arena can offer, they're wanting relationships well established before Bramley-Moore Dock gets a head start. The only thing Everton has going for it in this respect is that the residents of Anfield apparently have little appetite for more noise and disruption.
Then again, if the Liverpool Waters scheme progresses as planned, including residential development, Bramley-Moore Dock could run into similar issues?
45 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:38:53
Doing far more than the moaners/naysayers and those who miraculously appears to have prior knowledge of the stadiums lack of facilities and what is a relevant professorship !
46 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:48:45
Having seen Arsenal lose out on many of the very best players for 5-10 years due to their funding of the Emirates and now Spurs hampered by a tight budget the writing is on the wall for us.
I am personally becoming worried that this whole thing will prove too expensive; alternatively, we will get relegated due to lack of investment in the playing staff.
Sorry to be so doom-laden, it's just that I distrust the spin that spouts from the club, and have little faith in the board to see this all through.
47 Posted 14/03/2019 at 16:49:11
if you were or are a resident of Liverpool or a merchant seaman you will at sometime sailed down the Mersey. and the first thing you notice is the Liver building and you get that tingle ( I AM HOME ) I now live in Canada but to remind me of home, I have pictures of the three graces hanging on the wall.
Now at 78 and not in the best of health i have on my bucket list a determination to see the 4th grace. The only negative at the back of my mind is as a supporter of Everton since 1952 they tend to let you down.
48 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:02:04
You're a bit older than myself, but the image you've described sounds heart-warming, enchanting almost... and I can easily imagine how you could feel that way upon seeing those three magnificent building coming into view after a long time away.
Sadly, those days have slipped away and I cannot see why EFC should have to take on the burden of building a "Fourth Grace" – it won't be right next to them.
49 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:05:59
50 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:07:55
As for the Four Graces, I can only think of three: Kelly, Fields and Jones.
51 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:09:03
Both of these shouts have “Theatrical Bill” all over them — it's what he does, he's infectious!
52 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:28:04
Phil #49, let's face it, if they waited for good performances to make announcements about Bramley-Moore Dock, they'd have been pretty much silent this season.
53 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:39:17
54 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:53:43
Everton planned the ‘MIPIM property conference in Cannes, France after the Newcastle game did they?
55 Posted 14/03/2019 at 17:54:01
56 Posted 14/03/2019 at 18:04:39
Slightly off topic, but our famous Golfing Blue, Tommy Fleetwood is leading The Players Championship at Sawgrass, Ponte Vedra, Florida, at -7, incidentally where our own Jamie Crowley hails from. Unfortunately the filming on the first day is always pre-chosen featured groups, of which Tommy had little or no coverage.
57 Posted 14/03/2019 at 18:06:34
58 Posted 14/03/2019 at 18:38:12
As you say, Drew, some on here are so predictable following any new story about Bramley-Moore Dock.
Oh, look, there's another one below your post. "That reminds me, my season ticket renewal is due." So predictable.
59 Posted 14/03/2019 at 19:16:17
Perhaps it's her attire or maybe that very false and corporate smile she's enticing us from above with.
I'm also having flashbacks from the Grafton in my early 20s for some strange reason?
60 Posted 14/03/2019 at 19:18:12
We should expect more of the relentless same in the coming years.
61 Posted 14/03/2019 at 19:19:13
62 Posted 14/03/2019 at 19:27:34
63 Posted 14/03/2019 at 19:28:59
Gawd, Rob, you have brought back a few memories there, me old mate, not all pleasant either as I recollect... How a few pints can affect one's perception of beauty, is still one of life's long mysteries!
64 Posted 14/03/2019 at 19:42:47
I'll admit I suffered like any young 'chap' from a beer goggle problem once enough of it had been consumed.
In my defence, I was usually carried into the establishment and then carried back out again!
66 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:09:35
67 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:12:39
‘'In Greek mythology a (Charites or) Charis or Grace is one of three or more minor goddesses of charm, beauty, human nature, creativity and fertility. The usual list of their names were Splendour, Good Cheer and Festivity'' – all well-known attributes of ToffeeWeb.
68 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:24:03
In this way, Mike Gaynes et al will be well prepared before their next visits to the city – in fact, they'll probably give the game a miss in favour of sampling those delights!...
And guys, if you have any Grafton photos, perhaps Lyndon could publish them?
69 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:28:18
70 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:36:00
Rob #59 certainly drags her down from Grace to tacky air hostess then Derek #63 sees her as Miss World in comparison to the Grafton ‘grab a granny' scene – which weirdly brings us to Wayne Rooney.
71 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:38:23
Although, thinking back...
72 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:38:49
It will be seen from the waterfront.
It will be part of Liverpool Waters.
It will signal the Second Coming... get behind it!
73 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:42:13
74 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:48:14
"No," he says, "I just got out after 20 years inside."
"What for?" she asks.
"Murdered my Mrs."
"So you're single then?"
75 Posted 14/03/2019 at 20:59:53
Further, her speech has allowed Rob and Derek to stumble upon an insight into the psyche of that Everton great, Wayne Rooney, and his possible conflation, under the influence of alcohol, between Miss World and ‘Granny'.
ToffeeWeb is truly greater than the sum of its parts.
76 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:01:07
Rob @73, you have just reminded me there of two things. When we last met when Mike was over at the end of November, John McFarlane Snr suggested that we should have a TW get together on a more regular basis, to which most present, thought would be a good idea, and of course any other TW'ers who couldn't make it on that night.
Talking of John, I know he sustained an injury through a fall, just after that night, I know he was okay after it, but convalescing, and did post on here a couple of times. I haven't seen John's posts since, so I do hope is well, such a lovely gentleman and a lifelong Blue.
As it was John's suggestion, it brought the whole thing back to mind, so hopefully before the season is over we can possibly arrange another ' meeting ' in a more convenient place than the Midland. We all did sit together eventually, but not till after a lot of jostling and beer juggling.
77 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:15:36
Sad to hear that the Grafton has closed. Perhaps some innovative individual could re-open it... although it was a bit before my time (I think). Within Liverpool, it must be as well known as The Cavern – and probably the source of far more entertaining stories. If the building still stands, it deserves a blue plaque and listed building status.
78 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:16:36
Other less than classy establishments were Sully's in Bootle, The Gaff by the Leo on Rice Lane, The Goat on Regent Road.
Good times back in the day. Was it Joe Bananas on the Dock Road?
Maybe all that booze has affected my memory. Saturday night dives after the match would be an interesting thread.
79 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:20:15
80 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:22:51
81 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:27:26
82 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:28:15
“Don't let them see you limping. They go for the lame ones first!”
83 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:31:45
Spot on mate. God there were some horrors in there.
84 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:33:25
85 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:35:32
Always thought the best club in Liverpool was The Cabin (Hardman Street). As I recall it's claim to fame was that it didn't employ bouncers - so if a fight did break out it carried on until someone won or the protagonists lost interest. All these years later, I'm still surprised by how many of my generation don't recall it.
86 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:40:02
87 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:40:59
88 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:47:54
The Cabin I recall too, usually off-duty nurses used to frequent, but it was okay for a late night mosey after a few pints and Testosterone started taking over the alcohol.
About this ToffeeWeb get together, I live in Chester now but can get to Liverpool on the train, so if anyone knows of a sizeable venue which has some seating, and doesn't get too packed, but also near the centre, for those travelling by bus and train, pitch in!
89 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:49:52
90 Posted 14/03/2019 at 21:59:31
91 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:09:49
You've got me reminiscing now, It was a bit out the way, but the place had a loyal following that travelled to it, we had to join some big queues for that place.
It had a touch of the Grafton about it, but with a younger and more attractive clientele, did you ever notice in that place that your feet stuck the floor a little bit as you were walking around?
Yep we've done the crawl down Hardman Street as Anthony Hughes has mentioned.
Anyone remember Pickwicks (another Grafton in disguise).
92 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:15:00
This was a night club and place where after I woke up (and many others) the next morning and many a time not usually in your own bed! I would be shaking my head due to the immense hangover and the absolute disbelief I'd done it again, even if I did enjoy myself.
This place was legendary to wollies also, most of the cities divorced women and those within a 25-mile radius had prowled that place one time or another. To be fair though, there were some lookers in there, it did attract a few of them knowing how many desperate males were in there, kind of snowball effect for both sexes. Myself and my mates went there when we were enduring let's say a "barren spell" where the opposite sex was concerned and then reacquainted ourselves with them.
I kid you not when I say I've seen men dragged off by groups of women from that place.
93 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:18:44
Makes you cry when you see how the prices were then. Sadly good times and days, on the pitch, now past memories but times have changed.
94 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:20:36
The Montrose club made the Grafton look quite classy!
That really was our last resort!
95 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:38:58
I recall a sticky dance floor – but most seemed to be like that. Did it also have one of those dance floors with alternating flashing lights in the floor – a bit like the club in Saturday Night Fever? I'm sure Mike Gaynes can relate to that image!
96 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:45:03
Simple times but great laughs, and when you think back, there's always a great memories, that will see us through on and off the pitch.
For me there's some fine debates on this thread, and based on vfm and optimum potential of exploiting Bramley-Moore Dock, then, I'd love to be in the next public debate with Dan Meis and Co.
ToffeeWebbers should collate and present all views and present to Farhad and Denise, so all aspects are considered.
Most of us have said all along that there's some due concerns, natural born from previous plans that failed, but this time, it would be good to see a model of the 10 square miles landslide and where the car parks, new station, bars and pubs will go.
The Bramley-Moore pub could thrive, there'll be new pubs and bars, and they'll need to have dedicated pedestrian walks into Town.
Long, long way to go but who knows.
I reckon, there's enough material on this thread for a book, “Those Where Those Days”, ToffeeWeb could publish and donate to good causes.
97 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:50:20
98 Posted 14/03/2019 at 22:57:31
I was in the Wetherspoons, the one in the old Blackler's near Central Station, last night. It was fairly empty after about 6.30 p.m. Plenty of seating, good real ale, reasonable prices and food if you want it. It would probably be too busy on Fridays, like most of the pubs in the City Centre.
Near Moorfields, there is the Lion Tavern which is smaller but has two rooms each of which could seat the sort of numbers we had in November.
99 Posted 14/03/2019 at 23:09:11
The dance floor was wooden when I was going, but what a lot don't know there was another decent sized night club upstairs, maybe this was where you were mesmerized by the floor.
Do you remember having to wear a shirt and tie for that place?
My mate and I were head locked and thrown out of there by Brummie (the head doorman) until he realised he'd thrown the wrong ones out and let us back in – oh joy!
100 Posted 14/03/2019 at 23:09:32
If anyone is interested, and lives in the Merseyside or surrounding area, please let us know through TW, and we can arrange a little get together.
The last one was good when Mike Gaynes came over just before the Anfield derby. As mentioned before, we were all stood around the bar for about the first hour and a half, and then luckily we got a few seats together.
101 Posted 14/03/2019 at 23:23:46
Derek, that night at the Midland is a special memory, but you're right, it probably wasn't ideal for a large gathering. We got lucky to get enough seats for John Sr and Jimmy The Sailor!
102 Posted 14/03/2019 at 23:32:20
Yes you did!
All you had to do was buy them a few drinks and lie through your teeth and tell them they were beautiful.
Mind you, the beer had taken over by then and you couldn't actually see them properly!
103 Posted 14/03/2019 at 00:00:51
Most of the time, you wanted to say "Fuck off – you look old enough to be me nan!"
I remember getting kicked out of some God-forsaken dump, some place I never knew existed (Netherley I think), with the words "Sorry, love, you'll have to get off, me husband's back home from Fords soon."
I always imagined a bloke that looked like Pluto from Popeye chasing me round some estate with a bat.
No wonder you can't buy Holsten Pils anymore.
104 Posted 15/03/2019 at 01:02:24
Always a good read on TW... As for the actual subject of Bramley-Moore Dock, I'm 58 but seriously don't think I will live to see either the new stadium or Everton mixing it with the top 4...
Liverpool FC has monopolized the city and media for the last 20 years, and will dominate for the foreseeable future...
For all his wealth, over the last few years, Moshiri has made little impact, on or off the field... just carried on Bill's bullshit but in a nicer suit.
8 games left; no doubt more lows than highs... then, it all starts again in the Summer of Hope!
105 Posted 15/03/2019 at 07:03:57
107 Posted 15/03/2019 at 07:48:06
On the matter of the stadium the only way I see this building being erected is with the grace of God. Notoriously unreliable source some may say.
109 Posted 15/03/2019 at 09:05:41
Best leave it at that I think!
110 Posted 15/03/2019 at 09:21:24
111 Posted 15/03/2019 at 09:32:04
Its the old mans easy mile, (not a mile, but can seem like a mile), from the Ship & Mitre, to try and get to the Slaughter House, but rarely acheived these days, as we take the knock, as the real ale and export lagers, on offer, especially at The Ship & Mitre, are potent.
Some real cracking pubs on and in the nooks off Dale Street.
112 Posted 15/03/2019 at 09:53:34
113 Posted 15/03/2019 at 10:40:27
114 Posted 15/03/2019 at 10:44:49
115 Posted 15/03/2019 at 10:48:17
117 Posted 15/03/2019 at 11:10:13
Really hope we can get this TW get together, off the ground, and all those with stories about Everton and the 'old fleshpots and smokey bordellos of Liverpool' can be exchanged over a glass or two.
119 Posted 15/03/2019 at 11:25:18
I remember sams bar well used to sing along to the guy with the guitar every weekend the place was bouncing. Pickadicks was a scary place for a young man in them days, all the grannies in susies drooling all over you Lol.don't forget your ausi whites in yates wine lodge with the sawdust for a carpet..
120 Posted 15/03/2019 at 11:34:59
Immense days, and if this squad could aspire to that time, and start believing in themselves who knows.
If only it needs to happen soon, as we are all getting on in age.
121 Posted 15/03/2019 at 12:26:02
122 Posted 15/03/2019 at 12:54:40
And somehow wed squeeze in a Chinese in the Kong Nam(I think it was called)
The Triton often looked like a busy A+E on a Saturday night.
123 Posted 15/03/2019 at 13:19:18
Oh, for a bit of football eh?
125 Posted 15/03/2019 at 13:31:32
The newer pubs or revamped old ones are all mirrors, lights and little atmosphere, or am I showing my age?
126 Posted 15/03/2019 at 13:51:53
We started out with the most powerful woman at EFC, our CeO responsible for realising our dreams of a new stadium.
We then, via an image of a tacky air-hostess and miss world ended up in various dives full of older women who were both mocked and also feared as powerful seducers.
127 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:16:27
128 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:20:59
The comments thread of an article I wrote a couple of years ago resulted in several long-ago schoolmates reconnecting. Still makes me smile.
129 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:31:06
130 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:48:30
I don't expect you will be able to attend this one Mike (should it materialise) but you would be more than welcome, we could even see if they would re-open the Grafton (lol) for you! Mind there would be a Zimmer Frame Park outside for some of the lovely ladies that used to frequent (probably still up for it, perish the thought) but that's a matter for mirth and conjecture.
131 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:49:40
The cabin was my fave tho - proper sleazy punk bar!
Is the Sportsmans still there? I remember going in there one lunchtime during a sixth form trip to the Tate. I had my school uniform (West Park Grammar) on but still got served. They had strippers on!!!
132 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:50:48
133 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:53:38
134 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:57:23
Some aging beauty wandered on stage and took her kit off to moooove closer, moove your body real close .untilllll we .
we drank our 50p afternoon special pints lager and left as there was only us there and 3 old fellers in the front row seats with a daily mirror on their lap .
It was that old Higson's Lager I think it was called , had a weird taste to it . I think they used Mersey water.
135 Posted 15/03/2019 at 14:57:53
on the corner of Green Lane/Prescott Road. It was a Friday lunchtime
and as few of us from Sandown college had an extended lunch-break .that day. All of 16 years old.
136 Posted 15/03/2019 at 15:15:14
137 Posted 15/03/2019 at 15:18:16
138 Posted 15/03/2019 at 15:25:22
I remember the Babalou used to close at 1am so if we hadnt clicked we would head a few doors up to the "Beachy" which was open till 2am.
Great memories and nostalgia I just hope that is not all weve got left at Everton.
139 Posted 15/03/2019 at 15:34:31
Jay... Opposite the Lord Warden?.. Became the Hotsy Totsy, named after Frank Nitti's Chicago club.. Grand night out
140 Posted 15/03/2019 at 15:47:16
Every single one of them.
Ill need a tour guide, please.
141 Posted 15/03/2019 at 15:56:18
Now for great days again, on the park, lets hope, so soon.
142 Posted 15/03/2019 at 16:15:18
I remember being refused entry to the She Club when we got back from the 1977 League Cup semi second leg at Bo!ton. A few of the players turned up when we were arguing the toss with the "doorman" and Andy (is our) King introduced us as friends of his! Got in no problem!
143 Posted 15/03/2019 at 16:17:42
"War, duh duh, what is it good for. Absolutely nothing. Say it again y'all"
144 Posted 15/03/2019 at 16:26:26
You're correct Derek, we live in a changed world.
All the pubs in the City Centre have changed, you'll for the most part find the same pubs in every city centre, they're all chasing the tourist dollar/euro and have become very "Metro", the person next to you is just as likely to be drinking Darjeeling tea as they are a pint of bitter.
145 Posted 15/03/2019 at 16:40:24
Talking of John Bailey and the Grafton I mentioned earlier on, my mate and I found ourselves standing next to John Bailey at the Grafton bar, his elbows were on the bar and his head in his hands with a "How did it come to this look".
I was moving to tap him on the shoulder and ask if I could buy him a drink and his mate intercepted my arm on the way while shaking his head and giving me a don't do it look. He then whispered in my ear, "He's got a few things bothering him, best leave him alone".
I usually end up with my head in my hands after the Grafton, but not while I'm there, but as a pro footballer he must have had some tidy women around him and then finds himself in the G with all its delights.
146 Posted 15/03/2019 at 16:51:39
Hope my memory is not playing tricks on me there!
Used to go and watch strippers in the Caradoc on a Sunday afternoon after the mornings game. If I'm honest, it was more the promise of a late drink ( before the days of open all hour pubs) than the exotic dancers that got us there!
The Coconut Grove? I was once told to F**k off by Paul Walsh in there. Not sure what the 18yo Mike said to deserve that, but I can imagine the gist of it!
147 Posted 15/03/2019 at 16:53:38
148 Posted 15/03/2019 at 17:03:05
149 Posted 15/03/2019 at 17:03:30
The now converted bar opposite Moorfields, Izvestia forgotten the name, it was long and fairly narrow, Brian Labone, was always in there, prior to his passing.
The Ginger Bread strip joint p, next to the Old Radio City, well, that was a place.
151 Posted 15/03/2019 at 17:22:42
152 Posted 15/03/2019 at 17:31:46
153 Posted 15/03/2019 at 17:58:34
I need to get back there one day soon to see if that painting of the Napoleonic wars is still on the wall.
Someone had done a speech bubble on one of the wounded saying “aargh you twat”!
Used to give me the giggles after several pints of Draught Bass!
From there to the Phil then Kirklands then ending up in either the Cabin or Tropicana before eventually mine sweeping in Chinatown or an Indian!
154 Posted 15/03/2019 at 18:04:04
I agree, they are indeed part of the unique ToffeeWeb splendour and charm. I was very moved by the nostalgia and reminiscences of those shared male experiences, the picture of a vanished world and an unhappiness at the brave new world in which we live.
Although the content of the trip down memory lane was unexpected, I wonder if the secret bond between Bramley-Moore Dock and the tacky pub-n-club scene is the image of a powerful woman?
159 Posted 15/03/2019 at 18:25:28
160 Posted 15/03/2019 at 22:17:41
I am personally open to any day of the week, which hopefully suits the majority. Dave I have total respect too for yourself, and your son Tony, who are both died in the wool, True Blue Evertonians, a phrase that is glibly used, but it does apply to you and your son.
In view of what you have said, and I have no objections to endorse it personally, why can it not be the Sunday, after the Man U match?
Please, please, please to all blue noses, if you can make it, it would be a convenient date to put some faces of true blues to the names on TW.
As someone mentioned earlier, we are not getting any younger, and from a personal point of view, I was totally over the moon at meeting many of the regular contributors on TW!
162 Posted 15/03/2019 at 22:55:17
164 Posted 15/03/2019 at 00:05:20
My dad's 76 and was at Oldham away (as a young kid) during our last promotion. He's always taken great pleasure from the articles John McFarlane Senior posts on here.
166 Posted 16/03/2019 at 03:21:11
Pickwick's was the old Gaumont cinema, only made it there once to see a band called "The Table" back in the punk days.
Rob #85, the Coconut Grove was another converted cinema where I spent my ABC Minors Saturday mornings.
Mark #153 Ye Cracke is still going strong and is one of my regular haunts the few times I'm back in town. The painting is still there. I remember the Cracke when it was just the 1 house bedore being knocked through to thw other side. Basically just the front bar and the war office with Big Norm dominating both rooms!
167 Posted 16/03/2019 at 03:23:45
168 Posted 16/03/2019 at 03:32:18
169 Posted 16/03/2019 at 08:50:44
It was disconcerting to see her at the end of her act with several ciggie stubs stuck to her arse.
We lost 4-0.
170 Posted 16/03/2019 at 09:11:50
Just holding in my hand and fondling, wait for it. A black half crown , 2/6 d. gambling chip from the Cabin. Working class lads out in town,on the pull and able to squander your hard earned money on roulette !!!! How sophisticated could you get ?
As an aside, Pete Price who used to be on late night radio worked in The Swan in Wood St., they had an upstairs bar, The Steering Wheel he then went to The Cabin and became their DJ. I wonder what happened to all those women ? Must be in Amazon heaven.
171 Posted 16/03/2019 at 09:24:27
172 Posted 16/03/2019 at 09:25:53
173 Posted 16/03/2019 at 09:29:14
Where else could she put them?
You're not blaming her for the defeat are you?
174 Posted 16/03/2019 at 09:50:04
A mate I went to Art School with, on release from my firm, knew Pete Price and we called in one lunch hour to see him at the Steering Wheel but in my mind it was above a shop or cafe in Bold St?
We'd stroll down to Ye Cracke from the school for a swift pint and a cheese cob. Smashing little place.
175 Posted 16/03/2019 at 09:57:36
176 Posted 16/03/2019 at 11:43:23
Used to drink in the Dixie Dean Bar on London Road in my pre-legal days so knew the area.
And The Moonstone!! Anyone remember that???
178 Posted 16/03/2019 at 13:40:04
179 Posted 16/03/2019 at 15:15:06
180 Posted 16/03/2019 at 15:24:05
182 Posted 16/03/2019 at 16:38:37
I don't know if you're a "Towny" Dave, I'm not, but after reading all the posts on here I stumbled upon this piece from ToffeeWeb in 2013. The Gladray gets a mention from Cliff Marshall no less, our first black player. Might interest you.
183 Posted 16/03/2019 at 16:55:39
the absence of the Heath Robinsonesque cartoon "the buck passing machine"
184 Posted 16/03/2019 at 17:03:20
185 Posted 16/03/2019 at 17:08:56
187 Posted 16/03/2019 at 17:11:03
188 Posted 16/03/2019 at 17:21:44
..playing "Like a Rolling Stone" very badly on a fiddle... Soon let me back on though
189 Posted 16/03/2019 at 17:46:26
It's basically the story of Cliff Marshall and his time at EFC . The bit below is where he mentions the Gladray.
Dave, if you put "Cliff Marshall" in the top right hand part of this page, where it says "Search" and shows a magnifying glass and then hit enter, it gives a list of articles in the Site Search and the Cliff Marshall one is there. Some interesting comments in the posts too.
"The next time I got “the call” I thought “Uh oh, what is it now?”. I was a bit of a “Del Boy” wheeler-dealer so they got me in the room and said “We heard that your auntie runs the Gladray club, can you get our Christmas do there?”. So “I said leave it with me lads”. The Gladray was Liverpools first strip-club and it was the best Christmas party that Everton ever had! You could get away with more things in those days – there were no cameras around."
190 Posted 16/03/2019 at 18:31:01
191 Posted 16/03/2019 at 19:31:32
Id have loved to visit the Gladray(and Gloria!!!) but didnt know it existed! Aint life a bitch!
Incidentally, the “ Site Search “ option on ToffeeWeb enables you to look up old articles, a nice way to pass the time away.
192 Posted 16/03/2019 at 21:10:25
193 Posted 16/03/2019 at 00:01:22
The Gladray!! I'd forgotten all about that place, but then I did have quite a few nights I'll never remember in there.
194 Posted 17/03/2019 at 00:07:50
195 Posted 17/03/2019 at 00:36:44
196 Posted 17/03/2019 at 03:07:30
197 Posted 17/03/2019 at 05:57:58
198 Posted 17/03/2019 at 09:03:36
Derek (195) The Scala was in Lime Street next to the Futurist and facing The Palais de Lux, what a marvellous name for basically a flea pit.
Living close to town we were blessed with numerous picture houses to go to, very handy because in those days we practically lived in them, four or five times a week. That peice of wire came in very handy.
199 Posted 17/03/2019 at 10:21:27
It will conveniently fail on either planning or funding or both.
Keep buying those season tickets though.
200 Posted 17/03/2019 at 10:23:51
201 Posted 17/03/2019 at 14:14:38
Clarence Dock, just up the road, is far bigger and better prepared but never gets a mention, Madness.
Having said that, none of this bullshit will ever happen (again).
202 Posted 17/03/2019 at 14:21:14
I can only assume that Everton have looked into this and received reassurances about smells. If not, then I guess Everton are just holding their noses and getting on with it.
I couldn't smell anything when I was down there last year, and the works is not conspicuous. But if nothing else, it leaves us open to jibes from fans in "the other place".
203 Posted 17/03/2019 at 14:22:58
204 Posted 17/03/2019 at 15:09:34
I discovered the Faulkner St/Catherine St/ Quarter area just a few years ago when my son was a student at LIPA. In the previous 50 years Id never set foot into this part of the city.
LIPA attracts a large number of students from Scandinavia and speaking to a few of their parents (all speak perfect English of course) - all of them thought Liverpool was a great place and had visited plenty of places I hadnt.
205 Posted 17/03/2019 at 15:14:35
206 Posted 17/03/2019 at 15:26:08
Despite living in Liverpool until I was 23 I keep finding references to places Ive never visited (and that doesnt include the new attractions).
207 Posted 17/03/2019 at 15:27:01
208 Posted 17/03/2019 at 16:01:35
209 Posted 17/03/2019 at 16:13:14
And in the mid 19th century up to 40% of the world's trade passed through Liverpool, the Second City of the Empire.
210 Posted 18/03/2019 at 03:54:29
My memory's fading after having left Liverpool when I was 18.
211 Posted 18/03/2019 at 06:35:15
212 Posted 18/03/2019 at 09:18:12
213 Posted 18/03/2019 at 10:43:41
214 Posted 18/03/2019 at 11:29:35
215 Posted 19/03/2019 at 23:20:11
I know this was all pre-match entertainment for an evening game but for some reason the match never registered in my head!
"Pass me the pills nurse!"
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.