What do Beto and Thierno Barry each bring to the Everton side?

I haven't seen what they bring to the side this season. We're crying out for a striker in January.

Very accurately captured what our strikers currently bring to the table there!

It was noticeable that Beto has had his best games when Alcaraz is playing centrally.

On the other hand, Barry, while offering better ball control with his feet, is absolutely dreadful in the air which given his size is a major problem.

So for me neither striker is the answer but we can improve returns with better provision of chances.

On the subject of strikers, I just hope we don't go for another Man Utd reject in Zirkzee.

If we haven't got the funds give the youth lads a chance now and again.

I don't see too much of anything.

Beto will make an effort to track and close, more as a sub than a starter. He has pace. He can make tap ins. Dont laugh DCL missed loads of them. He does get into the right position occasionally. But Moyes does not tactically play to what little strengths he has. Probably he never will instead looking for goals from elsewhere.

Barry has nothing. He doesnt close down. He is bereft of pace. He cant control a ball with any part of his body. Has he had a shot yet ? I cant recall. He has to be loaned out for his benefit. See if its just nerves affecting him, because at present he is at poor amateur level.

Realistically neither should be here. I don't blame them. The club acted irresponsibly signing both.

Barry on the other hand has been a big disappointment so far. I do see him constantly asking for an early ball, but apart from Alcaraz all our other forward players like to hold on to the ball and when it eventually comes he is unable to throw off his marker. So to date he has been poor, and unlike Beto he seems unwilling or unable to use his physicality.

So for me Beto starts and Barry is given 20 minutes at the end of games we are winning in the hope that this helps him develop into a more effective player..

The effort and heart are there, I wanted him to get up to Premier League speed, settle in, get his touch, use his size, worry defenders, cause a bit of nuisance, upset defences... but not seen that recently, sad to say.

I just can't weigh Barry up, he lost it at Wolves, had a second chance vs West Ham, came up short...

I'm not sure what we have bought?

Now if you would have asked why that is, it would have been a more realistic evaluation of either player. But truth be told, Beto is a bull in a China shop, just like The Stracq, while Barry needs to either go out on loan or go to a club that plays a different style of play.

One thing is quite clear: neither possesses enough skill to make a difference in this Everton team. To that extent, both players' signings have been an unmitigated disaster. The choice is between one player with little skill versus one player with no presence.

The effect of playing either negates the overall value of the rest of the team, not just becoming a '10-man' team, but actually much worse. Without them, the team would probably adapt better... still toothless -- but not as frustrating!

Our first impressions of Lukaku were correct; our first impressions of Latchford, Andy Johnson, David Smallman, James Beatie, Graham Sharp, Andy Gray, Dennis Stracqualursi, Moise Kean etc etc have mostly proven to be correct.

First impressions count a lot; my first impressions of Beto and Barry…

Both are shite.

Someone name me forwards in particular whose first impressions proved to be wrong.

Let's have a (boring weekend of international football) debate!

They are the worst two strikers in the league, which would be bad if they were academy players but together they cost over £50M. I've said it before but whoever scouted, sanctioned or fell for the con, in bringing these players to Everton are not fit for purpose.

Thankfully Thelwell has gone to Rangers, where he's not very popular, but someone else thought we could splash £27M on a player who wouldn't get a kick in the Championship.

When Beto had a purple patch last season, it was much needed and appreciated, but it was still obvious he was basically rubbish. We should have unloaded him off the back of that, and taken anything we could get for him.

It's not rocket science and we shouldn't be finding it this difficult to get a couple of pacy front men who can control a football, especially for £50M. The only club who get ripped off more than us is Man Utd.

And despite my uncertain elderly memory, I believe you previously painted Onana, Young, Doucoure and Calvert-Lewin with the same description.

If we're truly saddled with that many "worsts", it would appear Moyes is an absolute miracle worker to have produced 1½ points per game.

Was that your intended message?

Thank god someone got the message!

The Barry signing is the odd one. I personally don't see this magnificent link play. He's done ok in a few situations. He's done terrible in many many more and doesn't even show for the ball that well. I would struggle to find another 6ft 5 bloke so bereft of pace and so poor in the air.

He can't seem to make space for himself, nor get a shot off, nor show anything that makes one feel like he just needs time. He looks absolutely useless.

As for Beto, not only do his physical attributes shine brighter if he's fresh-legged against a more tired opposition, he also comes in hungry to prove himself and stumbling over his own mental hurdles way less.

In other words, the team has to find a formula for how to squeeze as much potential as possible from two limited players. The aforementioned choice seems like the most plausible option.

The only other one of the players you mentioned, who I believe to be a ‘worst' is Mykolenko.

But the reality is the opportunity for a fresh start, in a new country at a top team in european football, was far better than we could offer.

Napoli are current Serie A Champions, could go deep into the Champions League, and are likely to end the season with silverware and a Champions League place again.

Being on loan, he has maintained his £85k p/w wage.

He also knows Serie A well having played for Atalanta.

I also can't see why Man Utd would have considered letting him go for £30M. Why would they do that? If he performs well in Serie A (as he already seems to be doing) then he will probably command a fee of more like £50M or £60 M (having bought him for about £72M).

You have to ask, why would he be remotely interested in joining Everton. And why would Man Utd have sold for such a small fee as £30M?

You also have to ask how his form would be playing for a patchy side undergoing a rebuild -- compared with probably the best side in Serie A. I think it's safe to say he would be finding it a lot harder.

I expect Everton and David Moyes would have very much wanted some of the strikers who moved this summer - like Isak, Ekitike, Gyokeres, Joao Pedro and Muani etc. And we obviously had a go at getting Delap and possibly Woltemade too. Unfortunately, we are too poor and too far off being an attractive prospect to compete.

For the ones which were more realistic, let's see how they are doing at their new clubs:

Evan Ferguson: loan (0 goals, 1 assist for Roma)
Brian Brobbey: €20.00m (0 goals, 0 assists for Sunderland
Armando Broja: €23.00m (0 goals, 0 assists for Burnley)
Tolu Arokdare: €26.00m (0 goals, 0 assists for Wolves)
Conrad Harder: €24.00m (0 goals, 0 assists for Leipzig)
Hamza Igamane: €11.50m (2 goals, 1 assist for Lille)
Evan Guessand: €30.00m (0 goals, 0 assists for Villa)
Mihailo Ivanovic: didn't move in the end... (0 goals, 1 assist for Millwall)
Ang Yoan-Bonny: €23.00m (2 goals, 3 assists for Inter)
Mika Bierith: didn't move in the end... (1 goal, 0 assists for Monaco)

Amongst this lot, Thierno Barry (€30.00m) hardly stands out as a disaster.

I never saw Barry play before he signed but he must have shown something. Playing up front for Everton has been a poison chalice the last decade. But now we actually have some decent players who can keep hold of the ball.

I think we need to decide what we want. A target man or someone who wants to get in behind. Calvert-Lewin, despite his faults, was far better at both than either Beto or Barry.

I would be very tempted to play Ndiaye, Alcaraz or Keane up front -- depending who is required elsewhere. Even McNeil. At least he can get hold of the football.

My opinion is he would join for the same reason as Grealish. New stadium; team on the up; revive your career; Premier League is better than Serie A etc. £30M mentioned as they were after cash at the end of the deadline. May not have been a realistic figure.

There’s 2 aren’t going to improve by just coaching.

Barry looked good in Spain. Maybe the prem is too hard for him.

But he looks like he’s got zero idea what he’s doing.

When he tried to run past Guehi was embarrassing.

Zero awareness of the runner behind Guehi.

The issue needs addressing or it’ll cost a lot of points. That includes both strikers.

We have seen enough of Beto to know he is a heffalump. Tenacity is his main skillset. There's not much else. Again, if I try to find a positive, every time he has played with Charlie, he looks that little bit more effective. Maybe we have to persevere with that to restore a semblance of potency upfront and find a different role for KDH.

Early days but if you look at the EPL top scorers, you have Jaiden Anthony costing less than £10m, Igor Thiago for £30m and Wilson Isidor for £5m. Maybe they won't keep it up. But I think all of them look better players than our two. On those top scorers, ours, Ndiaye, leads the way on both shot accuracy and goal conversion. It's why I think he's worth a try.

Our NO.9 on international duty

There are some other forwards doing well at this early stage. Anthony, Isidor and Thiago are doing well - although Thiago (€33.00m) cost a bit more than Barry (€30.00m) and that was before prices really exploded to a new level this summer.

It's probably also interesting to look at the form of the Premier League strikers who cost more than the €30.00m we paid for Barry this summer - just to illustrate how hard it is to find a reliable goal scorer:

Sesko (€76.50m to Man Utd) - 2 goals, no assists in 7 games
Woltemade (€75.00m to Newcastle) - 3 goals, no assists in 4 games
Gyokeres (€65.80m to Arsenal) - 3 goals, no assists in 7 games
Wissa (€57.70m to Newcastle) - not played
Pedro (€63.70m to Chelsea) - 2 goals, 3 assists in 7 games
Delap (€35.50m to Chelsea) - 0 goals, 0 assists in 3 games
Tel (€35.00m to Spurs) - 1 goal, 0 assists in 5 games
Kostoulas (€35.00m to Brighton) - not played

These strikers are all playing in much better sides than Everton too.

And it's fair to say that its not long ago at all that the likes of Delap, Woltemade and Wissa were very ordinary (or even fairly rubbish) looking strikers. So maybe the morale of the story is that it can take strikers a little while to find a decent rhythm and it can take time for sides to organise in such a way that suits the strikers too.

For years on here I have seen posters crying that they would love our club to follow the example of Brentford and Brighton putting them forward as the beacons for transfer recruitment and then when we do with the likes of Aznou, Barry and Rohl the players either get labelled shit, unprepared or injury prone because they aren't tearing up the Prem instantly.

When these clubs bring through the likes of Wissa, Schade, Evanilson etc they don't get exposed straight away and even these players were more experienced, older and were more advanced in their footballing education. Barry is a late bloomer who has risen up the ranks exponentially

I myself would have hoped for more from Thiermo. Last season he seemed like a real box player yet so far all of his best work came through his link up play against Brighton. This player has undoubted quality and until now has made the step up to everything asked of him. This is a guy with pedigree, scores with one touch finishes, tortured Barcelona's defence previously and was good enough to make the grade for a star studded French u21 squad. Indeed he is rated very highly within their system, so he is definitely no mug.

He has clearly had a culture shock with the pace and physicality of the Premier League and the physical advantage he had over Spanish defences is now one of his weaknesses. I don't think it is a coincidence his best performance came against Brighton who are a more technical side and are more cultured than aggressive with their defending.

I believe the strategy was flawed during the summer, not because of Barry's signing but due to the reliance on Beto. Our recruitment team will have felt they had a reliable striker with Premier League goals, Ndiaye who has the capability to play there and Barry who will have been seen as great value in the current market and a 'project' signing who we could hope to develop and chip in along the way.

I highlighted back then that we should have cashed in on Beto when his star was at it's brightest. Two names I mentioned were Ferguson and Hoijlund. I disagree with posters suggesting the latter was unattainable. Man Utd were desperate to offload the player all summer and wanted a quick sale. Had any club came in then there would have been a real possibility of a transfer.

Napoli didn't enter until very late in the window and it was only then that they had to succumb to a loan but insisted on the obligation to buy at 38m euros. Anything he does in Napoli won't change his value.United wanted the cash to use in the last transfer window, their agreement with Napoli was a climb down as no one came up with the cash offer.

I think the difference here is that while there are strikers out there who have not delivered a final product, or at least not enough of it, few, if any of the players you reference do not and have ever looked as consistently woeful as our two. Barry in particular looks like a player belonging 2 or 3 leagues below and I've watched a fair bit of football at this level (Forest Green).

I guess it is possible for ugly ducklings to turn into swans, but this ugly?

Conor, I didn't realise Napoli had an option to buy on Hojlund. Google tells me the loan plus option to buy is €50.00m (£44m). As you say that was a fairly late compromise by Man Utd too - who would presumably have wanted a higher fee earlier in the window. Hard for us to compete with that.

I do agree that Ferguson is a good striker though and would have been very happy with him (I felt he had more ability than Delap). He's had a tough start to life in Serie A though (still getting over injury?) and I don't know what the Roma fans make of him. It might be that we could get him next summer.

He was financially very attainable considering we have spent the guts of £30 million dead money on a number ten with which we didn't really need strengthening.

Ferguson has started well with 2 motm performances in his 3 starts as well as an assist. He hasn't scored yet mind you though was keeping Dobvyk who was prolific last season and Dyabala out of the side before he got a little knock which Irish fans feared he might miss the upcoming qualifiers. Thankfully it was only a small knock and should play.

Yeah they like him a lot there.

I would suggest the fee must have been their break even point of PSR (64 million with 2 years ran on his 5 yr contract)

Beto has pace, quick off the start, but the way we play he's not getting his pace used. Barry, another Moyes not ready, £27M, along with a full back £9M not ready, Patterson, not fit for purpose, Coleman, a Travelling Wilbury (look it up).

Come back, Lukaku, all is forgiven.

On the other hand, maybe I can look forward to you telling me in a year or so, having just watched him knock in a hat-trick against the RS, "I told you there was a player in there '

In his first season, Jermaine Beckford somehow got us 10 goals, starting less than half the games.

But re-reading his Player Profile after 15 years (included some unabashed anti-Moyes critique from back then) gives watching Barry the feeling of déjà vu all over again.

No argument by the way that we could have organised our spending differently. I would have organised the spending differently if I was in charge. So yes, fair enough, in theory we could have afforded Højlund by saving €28M on Dewsbury-Hall, having already bought Alcaraz for much the same sort of position.

Then it comes down to whether he would have wanted to come if Napoli were also interested. I find that very fanciful to be honest. I don't think many non-Everton fans would disagree with me.

Anyway, good to keep an eye on Ferguson. Who knows, TFG's plan may be to rehabilitate him at Roma and then secure him long term for Everton.

If Man Utd received the amount from any club, then I would imagine it would have been "Go... or stay here and don't play".

He may not have wanted to come, as you say, though more sought-after players like Grealish had already joined, but at that point rumours were of Sunderland and Fulham being in the running.

On the theme of the thread, it's clear from our strategy that Dewsbury-Hall was a Moyes signing and so he would have had to convince the recruitment team of his role and importance to spend such a large outlay on a player with little resale value.

He has played as a Number 10 since pre-season. The fact we signed Alcaraz and Röhl means Grealish was always destined for the left and no doubt the England carrot was dangled (despite what we as fans may have thought).

This in itself tells us that Ndiaye must have been considered by the recruitment team as a striker or a right winger (as only a back-up on the left, or a Number 10) since he would have been expected to start and they had forked out a lot of money on two experienced players to have an instant impact.

Thanks, Conor.

We can't expect our two to be as good as players costing twice as much, we can hope but it's not logical to expect.

True I see a lot more of us, obviously, pretty much every one of our live games, but even so, I've seen plenty of the others too. And I don't see a player as totally abject as Barry currently is (and hopefully Rob T proves correct that this will change) at any other club.

Connor @31, agreed, it does my head in. Just back the lad, I mean we had fans who thought Lukaku was shite, it's baffling,

Beto has been disappointing. Although always limited his goalscoring under Moyes last season was reliable and that has fallen off this season though a big part of that is how differently we are playing now. Last season we were playing more direct and often getting the ball forwards quicker whereas this season (with Grealish a primary element) we are keeping the ball more and often building a little more gradually, which does not suit Beto's game and mediocre build up skills.

Some data came out recently showing that Grealish and KDH were both near the top of the PL chances created tables and yet of all those chances apparently only 2 had fallen to Beto (1 which he scored) and 0 to Barry. The vast majority had fallen to Garner and Gueye.

Both Beto and Barry have struggled at times to get involved in the game and though they both have to do better individually I'd say that the system and tactics are primarily responsible. There's quite a few new elements to this team, especially in attack with Grealish, KDH and Dibling new whilst Ndiaye plays in a different position. It will take time to adjust. I predicted that between them Beto and Barry would score 15 goals this season. That looks a long shot now but I still have hope they'll get close once they get into their stride and crucially Moyes works out how to get the best out of them.

Or maybe we'll buy a new striker in January and he will become the new scapegoat! I think getting some new fullbacks who can make dangerous overlapping runs that stretch opposition defences (with all our wingers preferring to cut inside) might be a more effective route to more goals though. It's very easy to blame a lack of goals on the striker, I'm not sure the reality is that simple.

Barry is a low cost option compared to Isaac but a very expensive option compared to Callum Wilson, Jamie Vardy, Antonio, Deaney, Ivan Toney, Watkins, all strikers who have made the journey to the Premier League from lower leagues.

We needed a mature ready made prem striker and got a younger version of Beto for £30M. No other club in world football would have paid that for Barry.

Our scouting is pathetic and the reason we got ourselves into so much financial trouble.

There are players out there waiting to be picked up. Our scouting system is lazy and plays second fiddle to most other Premier League clubs.

These 2 strikers will get the manager sacked.

Barry might come good, similar to the young left back, we didn't need them at the time with a squad so depleted why buy for the future?

I have always felt that Brands cost Silva his job although others could justifiably argue that, when the chips were down, Silva sulked instead of trying to find a way around the problem. The same thing happened when we first found ourselves with a little bit of money but no real thought-out overall plan.

Strand-Larsen (€27.00m)
Wood (€17.00m)
Mateta (€11.00m)
Welbeck (free)

We should certainly look to the lower leagues and low cost markets to bring in striker talent, but nothing really stands out at the moment. There were people raving about Mihailo Ivanovic last season (who looks really talented) but he's managed only 0 goals and 1 assist in 8 games in the Championship this season.

The stand out reason by miles that we've had poor strikers is lack of money.

Yep, I agree we haven't had money to attract top players but, even if we did, would Isak choose us over the Red Shite or most other Premier League teams?

We have to be more innovative in the transfer market. It's frustrating when we are continually picking up very expensive scraps that none of the top teams want.

Everton have not a good record of being able to adapt players.On top of that the Managers mostly engaged survival in the Premier League tactics and formation, that even experienced players have difficulty playing in.

Everton will only progress when they are able to adapt players to a system that challenges Top 4 positions and in Cup competitions.

The support system for young players prior to Brexit was more about empire-building than providing first-team players and disappeared when youth wasn't used. After Brexit, both the Academy and the development of foreign players is falling short.

I really can't see how it would be any worse than watching Beto and Barry. Sorry, I live in Australia, so not familiar with our reserve players.

But I don't think that changes the poor basics we can currently see in both of them.

One thing that is curious about Barry is that he came with a reputation for extreme pace, which would be handy, but the one time he's had a chance, against Guehi (who to be fair, is very quick himself) it didn't look to be there.

I don't think he features in the data for player speeds. Our fastest player, if you believe their data, is Ndiaye, but even he is several mph slower than the Premier League's fastest. I think this shows on pitch. We have lacked pace for a long time.

And we are not as direct as we were under Dyche.

But let's be honest.

When the team put quality crosses across the six yard box or diagonal balls in the box, Beto and Barry have squandered them. They look more likely to trip themselves up than connect with the ball.

They are both very limited players, but as a minimum I would hope they can learn to play more to the strengths they do have. For example, Beto has great power and physicality but he rarely uses it to impose himself on centre-halves.

Also, if net spend is the only factor that dictates outcomes rather than coaching, then we can sack the manager and get AI to pick the team.

Just my opinion but we are getting into very good areas and then not making the most of the work we have done, because we simply don't get enough bodies running into the box, which means that something that should be such a dangerous position is actually becoming quite easy to defend against.

Dewsbury Hall, who is playing furthest forward gets into some very good positions and sometimes puts the ball across the goalkeeper without looking and even more frustrating is that most teams just put a defender at the front post to second-guess the cross simply because we are not getting enough bodies into the box to occupy enough defenders.

A work in progress, because at least we are getting into these advanced positions, but until we start getting more people running across the front post, then it doesn't half make it a lot easier for that first defender.

But it does seem to lead to having lots of good players. Success doesn't necessarily follow (as per the example of the richer but equally idiotically managed Man Utd) but it certainly positions you well.

I am not sure who the expensive scraps we have in the squad are -- since not one of the players in our squad were bought for an expensive fee. We do however have lots of cheap players and few moderately priced ones.

I don't know about their heading ability, although I remember another poster some time ago did say Barry has a decent record in that department.

Do the team have any heading practice nowadays?
I think they have stopped children practicing heading the ball haven't they.

I doubt that either of them will be great with the ball at their feet.

Overall, their runs off the ball are making them quite easy to mark and their technical limitations mean players are not confident in playing them.

We are definitely retaining possession this season and creating chances. But we do not have pace in the team. Two rapid full-backs who overlap would transform us, but would Barry and Beto have the quality to take advantage?

I also think that, when you play with only one centre-forward, then the striker should take up a position like Beto took up for Grealish's winner against Palace, unless it comes from a fast counter-attack or something instinctive, or unless you have got a couple of midfielders breaking their necks to get into the box.

Attacking the front post creates confusion, so you should always have someone at least trying to do this (we don't even have anyone trying to do this from corners!) but it really is about getting more bodies into the opposition box if we are going to take advantage of getting more crosses into the danger zone.

I would like us to change the pivot of the triangle sometimes and play with one real disciplined holding midfielder and two attacking midfield players, especially right now when we are playing with two full-backs, who aren't very good from an attacking point of view.

Beto and Barry would definitely benefit from that play. Attacking the near post is always a dangerous attacking move. Defenders are really unsettled when attackers get in front of them.

A faster build-up would also help. Both Beto and Barry are overthinking. If the ball is faster, they are more likely to do what comes naturally.

I know Calvert-Lewin has his critics on here but he is a far better hold-up player than these two and would have had a lot more service with the likes of Iliman, Jack and Kiernan around him, less isolated.

I bet he regrets it too now.

He never attacked the near post and often was not in position. Holding up the ball slows the attack down too much and keeps the formation too deep. It may keep the opposition defensive line from pushing into midfield support. But this was rarely the case at Everton where the centre-forward often looked isolated. His finishing is still a bone of contention.

He never was properly taught the basics of a centre-forward at Everton. He joined as a box-to-box midfielder and ended up a makeshift centre-forward as buy after buy failed.