AS claim that the Spanish side have sounded out the Brazilian's representatives to see if he would be amenable to a switch to La Lige just a year after joining Everton from Watford.
Richarlison would not come cheap and it would require a massive fee but the report says that Atletico feel he would be worth it given that he is only 21 and already a Brazil international.
Chelsea have been linked with Richarlison in recent weeks as well.
Reader Comments (126)
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1 Posted 15/02/2019 at 06:43:41
An interesting few months ahead and then the summer transfer window.
2 Posted 15/02/2019 at 07:34:08
Do it, don't offer him a contract improvement, please!
3 Posted 15/02/2019 at 07:57:07
4 Posted 15/02/2019 at 08:40:33
Dean I don't understand your thinking - would you rather Kevin Kilbane down the left again? Pienaar was fouled a lot (I think at one point he was the most fouled player in the Prem) and he was one of our best players in the last ten years.
Now if only we could make something of the set pieces we get when Richarlison goes down. We should know how to do it having seen it happen at the other end so often this season...
5 Posted 15/02/2019 at 08:43:35
6 Posted 15/02/2019 at 09:13:52
7 Posted 15/02/2019 at 09:57:19
Also for those that were going nuts about his price he is now a Brasilian international and seemingly worth 50% more than what we paid for him and who is it that wants him, Simone, the man we would all love to have here but wont. He obviously sees some natural class in the guy as he has just signed up to AM until 2022 and Id imagine signing an extension means he has a big say on who comes in.
8 Posted 15/02/2019 at 10:00:43
9 Posted 15/02/2019 at 10:18:38
As stated in other threads Conte for me if not Rafa. Steady the ship and then full steam ahead!!
10 Posted 15/02/2019 at 10:35:01
Most articles admit Athletico Madrid is in no financial position to come anywhere near what our asking price would be, so I imagine this is a non-starter anyway.
11 Posted 15/02/2019 at 10:37:00
The AS article begins, "Así lo publica hoy Daily Star".
In English, "This is published today by the Daily Star."
Basically, this a rumour from the Daily Star, translated into Spanish. Hardly a reputable source. The basis of the Daily Star 'story' is that 'Richarlison is on the radar of Europes elite' - which is patently obvious.
File under: Not even worthy of discussion.
12 Posted 15/02/2019 at 10:55:51
It's amazing how many of our best players are still not good enough!
The lad is 21, plays for Brazil and has scored almost one every two games despite playing alot on the wing. Sure he's having a bad patch but so is the whole team. Hope we keep him for a while longer.
13 Posted 15/02/2019 at 11:21:17
14 Posted 15/02/2019 at 11:28:44
having said that, I wouldn't be in favour of selling him just yet. He undoubtedly has great talent and carries a goal threat which is worth hanging on to for the near future.
15 Posted 15/02/2019 at 11:30:36
Stop. Maybe it is something to do with us, our team, that is not playing to his strengths.
He has been battered playing CF for the last few months and is resilient enough to still be fighting on uninjured.
With a top class striker to feed off, Richarlison will improve no end . If we get the right top class, man in at CF, Richie will benefit exponentially. We need a top class CF who frightens defenders , intimidates them and diverts their focus , think Lukaku/ Diego Costa . Richarlison could only feed off that.
To sell him now would be an avoidable and completely naive mistake.
16 Posted 15/02/2019 at 12:00:24
Yes, we do have many players that need shipping out, easier said than done on massive ill-thought out contracts, by Major Saboteurs Walsh and Koeman. Just make sure the better players don't get forfeited too.
17 Posted 15/02/2019 at 12:18:11
1) as Marcus @ 11 points out, the original source of this story was that beacon of truth on Life, the Universe, and everything, the Daily Star. Some folk seemingly never work out how these invented rumours get circulated and regurgitated, giving the impression that it must be true because so many different media outlets are reporting it.
2) Even knowing that, I am no longer surprised when some Evertonians advocate selling our best young talent on some whimsical charge, as we did with Stones, Lukaku, Barkley and (to a lesser degree) Deulofeu (as Sam @ 12 comments on). Right there you have an outstanding spine around which to build a side for a decade under the right manager, supported by an ambitious board.
Instead, we dismantled it, and look what we bought in their stead.
18 Posted 15/02/2019 at 13:10:14
The lad is class, that is why top clubs are being linked with him. He is befcoming a fixture in the Brazil squad, which boosts our profile immensely.
Is he a bit petulant, yeah. Does that stop him being class, no. Do liveepool want rid of Salah because he dives? Are Palace keem to get rid of Zaha? City getting rid of Sterling? No. Of xourse not, but I'm the fantasy world.of some Everton supporters, getring rid of Stones, Lukaku, Barkley, Gueye, Richarlison, Pickford and more is the key to our success.
19 Posted 15/02/2019 at 14:58:27
20 Posted 15/02/2019 at 15:11:53
The likes of Richarlison and the above mentioned Barkley, Stones, Lukaku etc just lost interest. Imagine if we had a Ratcliffe or a Cahill or somebody like that playing with these guys, positively channelling their talent in the right direction. That's what we have missed most of all in the last few years, a proper leader and captain on the field who leads by example and wouldn't stand for the petulance to take hold.
I have to say though, I don't recall Everton actively wanting to get rid of or dismantle the side by getting shut of Barkley, Stones, Lukaku and the like; they wanted to leave and put in requests. If you want to blame anyone for them leaving blame the managers who couldn't deliver a more competitive team for them to play in.
Fans aren't looking to rid the club of talent but they do get fed up with players who really can't be bothered and don't put in the required performances they are capable of. All this nonsense that fans drive players away is just that, nonsense.
We have every right to expect Everton players to give their all in every game and clearly they don't do that. It doesn't matter how talented they are, that doesn't absolve them of their responsibilities.
If you want to compare Salah with our situation then look at how Salah works for the team and compare it to players mentioned above. Salah is in a different league. That's why he gets away with diving etc, same as Sterling at Man City.
The amount of posts about Barkley when he was here saying that he shouldn't tackle, shouldn't track back, shouldn't do his bit because he was a bit talented was embarrassing. No wonder we are in such a mess when some of the fanbase think it's ok for a player to not do his responsibilities.
That's why the RS and City are so far ahead of the rest, because they all do their bit, they all work like crazy to get the ball back when they don't have it, they all do the dirty work as well as the stuff that's easy on the eye.
Of course if you mention this here on TW you're a Neanderthal who doesn't understand football and just wants a team full of work horses. No wonder we win fuck all when you just want a team full of show ponies with no substance.
21 Posted 15/02/2019 at 15:24:54
Not just because Everton might sell but players and their agents often help the story along when the team is on the slide.
And then we have another season of transition...
22 Posted 15/02/2019 at 16:22:07
23 Posted 15/02/2019 at 16:30:38
24 Posted 15/02/2019 at 16:42:45
25 Posted 15/02/2019 at 16:52:20
26 Posted 15/02/2019 at 16:52:30
Better call your parents Jimmy and apologise for not being as smart as Einstein, as good looking as Clooney, nor as successful as Zuckerberg. Your parents must be well disappointed.
Richarlison has lost form, along with pretty much every player in the team. But the lad is talented, we lack goalscorers in our squad and he is pretty much the only one we have.
We need to add to Richarlison, not get rid. Let's sell Walcott, Bolasie, Tosun, Bernard and other ineffectual players unlikely to get better – not Richarlison, Lookman, Vlasic and Co who have potential to actually make us a decent team.
27 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:01:25
28 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:04:18
29 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:14:30
Probably a Red Shite gobshite reporter trying to stir things up.
30 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:14:56
In all honesty, I've been disappointed with him in open play. Aside from the fact that he spends a lot of time on his arse sulking, he is quite a clumsy footballer – the amount of times he runs into opposition defenders is incredible. He's obviously got ability, but if we could make a healthy profit and move him on, I probably would.
31 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:16:02
Why does anyone doubt that Richarlison "loves the club"? I think it would be hard to love the club after just 6 months, and if he did, it would be a bit fake for me. Lucas Digne seems "in love with the club". I believe he's overselling his affection for the club as he wants to have that relationship with the fans and does seem to want to hang around, and is trying to gain a fan's favourite role.
As for Richarlison, if you follow him on social media, you will see that he looks out for all things Everton. He watches fan videos, he says he sings the songs we sing about him, and loves them all.
Then he always stays after games, or comes back out after games, to address his fan club and give a shirt. What Richarlison does towards his particular fans, which are the youngsters at the club, goes above and beyond. No-one else did this before he came. That for me is genuine affection.
So, please tell me how this young boy from Brazil, who has only been here 6 months, could possibly "love the club" any more than he does?
As for the play-acting, I would love to hear what Jay and Fran think, being based in Brazil. Richarlison is from the Neymar school. I have heard people like Tim Vickery talk about this at length. Players like Pele and Maradona got the shit kicked out of them as kids on the pitches without refs. Neymar and Richarlison developed their skills as kids in Futsal and this had refs. So they developed a "defence mechanism" that is basically feigning injury. This is, "Don't try and kick me, I will just fall over before you do, and the ref will give the foul." Because Brazilian refs would give Richarlison a foul for every one of his little dives.
In essence, it's a culture thing. Something he needs to unlearn. That's not easy to do. I still do things (habits, I mean) I learnt in my childhood, subconsciously, and so it is hard to unlearn them.
There is another aspect to the culture thing. Apparently, according to Vickery, it is a big thing in Brazil to con the ref. It's a big thing for all countries in South America. It's the little man getting one over on the establishment, and in the context of countries that were colonies for most of their histories, and the status of people like Richarlison as working class or below, it is something you get encouraged to do.
As I said, I would welcome Jay's and Fran's take on that. Are Vickery and others talking out their arses? Or do we need to consider these things and so cut our 21-year-old Brazilian international some slack?
Ultimately, the lad still seems to enjoy being here. I don't think he will want to leave, and Atletico could not afford him. He will cost more than £60m if he leaves, for sure.
32 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:17:18
You can't beat selling a productive player, whilst keeping this garbage on the club roster...
33 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:21:15
Being realistic, he himself wouldn't envisage being at Everton for more than a couple of years... so, if Everton can turn a decent profit, everyone wins.
34 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:30:33
I agree he's not exactly set the world alight lately but he does put the ball in the net; we are not exactly overflowing with goal scorers are we?
Problem is if players want to leave they almost always get their way, its players that have the upper hand nowadays. Add to that, few have any allegiance to any club; if they get a more attractive offer, they're usually off.
35 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:38:15
Richarlison's potential is there for all to see, but his antics are excruciating. I know he's only a young lad but he is acting like a child and it's having a really detrimental effect on his game. I don't think I have ever seen a player so mocked by opposition fans.
I don't know who has told him his camp histrionics are a good idea, but the coaches at Everton have a duty to untell him. He can either become the main Brazilian striker (possibly the most coveted position in world football) or become a figure of fun, somebody opponent fans will ridicule and hound out of the Premier League.
Senior people at the club have an obligation to nurture him and advise him. It's time they started fulfilling it.
36 Posted 15/02/2019 at 17:39:48
Even if he was average, which he obviously isn't, Athletico don't buy mugs. Similarly to PSG wanting Gueye.
We need to add to their quality – not remove it; otherwise, we will never improve.
37 Posted 15/02/2019 at 18:12:36
38 Posted 15/02/2019 at 18:17:41
Apparently he does do some stuff outside of the sessions, but this is more verbal. He gives advice and some tips on heading the ball for example.
39 Posted 15/02/2019 at 18:42:34
40 Posted 15/02/2019 at 18:51:13
41 Posted 15/02/2019 at 19:24:22
Keeping hold of our best players has been a problem, and other than being in the Champions League on a regular basis I don't know how you stop our most talented players leaving. But there seems to be a pecking order in football with Real, Barca and Man Utd at the top of the food chain; usually, when they come calling, players go.
42 Posted 15/02/2019 at 19:58:48
On ToffeeWeb, whenever the team is playing shite, when it's dysfunctional and the manager's set-up appears to be a major problem, a lot on here want to get rid of our best players. Stones, Lukaku, Barkley, now Richarlison.
The venom against Lukaku was the worst example of some Evertonians wanting to jump out of the frying pan into the fire, and the criticisms of Stones et al aren't far behind that level of ridiculousness.
It's also started with Gomes. When he started well and he was being worshipped on here, I thought as soon as the team starts playing shite and he struggles, the knives will be out. And they are.
43 Posted 15/02/2019 at 20:33:19
He seems to me to be a shy, vulnerable man and I trust Silva to develop him. Again, let's hold steady.
44 Posted 15/02/2019 at 20:38:31
When you see this lack of commitment and in Lukaku's case constantly going to press to state where his next move is going to be then you get into the mindset that if he's going to play as and when he feels like and show no respect to the fans then maybe the best thing is to just bugger off somewhere else.
Same with Barkley who shafted us right royally. Coasted through games, cried because he couldn't handle the pressure of an FA Cup semi then fucked off to sit on the chavs bench. Good fucking riddance.
I want players who want to play for Everton every single game. Players who come off exhausted having given their all. When form eludes them, then they dig deep and give everything for the team. The likes of Bally would despair of some who think they're too good for us. We seem to think that because players have a bit of talent then that excuses everything. That's why we're in the shit, having managers and fans who make excuses for players not delivering any kind of performance and effort.
I don't want Richarlison to leave but also I want to see much more from him if only in effort. It's true that games are totally bypassing him at the moment. He is contributing nothing really. Same with quite a few others also.
Yes he is still young but that doesn't stop him from contributing. Neymar may be his idol and he may be a diver but Neymar invariably stamps his mark on a game regularly. As much as I don't like to paraphrase a RS but didn't Shankly once say if you aren't interfering with play then you shouldn't be on the pitch?
We become obsessed with so-called talented players and are prepared to give them so much leeway to the point of being blinded. Sometimes the ones who defend them blindly are the ridiculous ones. Players need to be accountable too.
45 Posted 15/02/2019 at 20:39:36
46 Posted 15/02/2019 at 20:49:05
47 Posted 15/02/2019 at 21:10:42
Then at least he could back to Everton one day and have greater input learning from his experiences away and benefitting the club.
48 Posted 15/02/2019 at 21:24:29
Sell Richarlison and watch him light it up in Spain.
Played out of position due to need, so sell him?
Why do we get these young players with promise in, and not give them enough time to develop?
Dave @44 -
I see a kid who, when played on the wing (Americanism alert!), busts his ever-loving ass to track back. I don't see a coaster. He goes down too damn easy, but I don't remember seeing him go through the motions. He's wasted up top, it's not his position, so he's ineffective there. But I don't see him coasting while playing striker either.
Inasmuch as Silva is royally pissing me off, and I admittedly flip-flop about every five friggin' minutes with my patience barometer, I think we need to just chill and let this team develop.
I'll probably change my mind if we lose to Cardiff. ;0)
BUT! Ages of our starting 11:
21 (Kenny) 26 24 25
20 (Davies) 25
21 29 21
A couple of signings, some patience, and we've got a decent future ahead of us despite this season shitting the bed. I'd give Silva next season.
And I'd never sell Richarlison.
49 Posted 15/02/2019 at 21:25:24
Richarlison is a young man indeed, as were Barkley, Lukaku and Stones, but fannying about on the pitch isn't and never was part of the Everton psyche, and I can't help but notice that all of the three who left have continued to largely underwhelm at their new clubs.
And if Ferguson had one iota of professional integrity, he'd be as revered as Sharpy, Latch, Joe, Fred, Roy, Alex, Dave, Tommy and Dixie. But he isn't, is he? Instead, he seemingly puts up with having his hands tied as something of a coaching non-entity at Finch Farm, never ever seeking to leave to advance his stellar coaching career. Comfortable life ain't it Dunc, like it is for everyone under Kenwright's spell, and that's why we're so shite.
50 Posted 15/02/2019 at 21:25:41
51 Posted 15/02/2019 at 22:26:53
This is what separates the good players from the mediocre. Would he get away with this at City or RS? No probably not. He is not on his own as plenty of the squad are doing likewise at the moment with the exception of the home grown.
The likes of Davies and Kenny are shaming some of the so called stars. Davies especially. Even when he was playing badly you could always tell Davies was busting a gut, you can't say that about Richarlison at the moment.
Now this may seem a bit unfair on a 21-year-old but as Don Alexander quite rightly says, the obscene amount of money They earn should make it unnecessary to plead for total commitment like we expect. You look to your better players to inspire in times of hardship and our better players are just not delivering I'm afraid — either in commitment or productivity.
52 Posted 15/02/2019 at 22:40:46
It's been a frustrating season, and the worst part of it is you can draw it all back to the derby. To me, we were flying and playing some really good stuff up to that point, and since then we've looked subpar at best. I think Richarlison has followed a similar curve as the team overall.
I would say I agree with you entirely on Kenny and Davies. They've both been playing some high-octane football as of late. Long may that continue.
53 Posted 15/02/2019 at 22:49:29
54 Posted 15/02/2019 at 22:49:40
In terms of the club's post-Derby swoon, he scored against Newcastle, scored against Watford, scored against Burnley, scored against Millwall in the FA Cup and scored against Huddersfield Town. He's still hitting the back of the net at a reasonable clip and remains our most consistent goal-scoring threat.
55 Posted 16/02/2019 at 00:16:33
56 Posted 16/02/2019 at 00:25:22
How many more good players will not be good enough for Everton? How many more players like Stones, Lukaku or Barkely will we kick down the road?
Richarlison and Davies next?
57 Posted 16/02/2019 at 00:33:06
He is 21 and has talent; with proper mentoring and coaching, he would be good enough to play for Atletico Madrid.
58 Posted 16/02/2019 at 01:04:58
59 Posted 16/02/2019 at 01:34:51
Dave #44, sorry, but that's just silly to me. So he's not Neymar, one of the best players in the world. If he was, would he be at Everton?
And as for "effort" I see maximum from him in every game. Gets all the way back to defend, pursues even the most speculative long balls, closes down well, wins tackles.
Of course he drives us all crazy with the rolling around, and of course his passing judgement needs work but, as I said before, he's raw. He will learn and mature.
60 Posted 16/02/2019 at 01:37:23
The first sign will be when he moans about not being in the Champions League.
61 Posted 16/02/2019 at 07:32:15
Problem here is that because some players have talent them they're immune from criticism. Well if they're that fantastic why are we up shit creek...again? Why are we getting beat by all and sundry? The players, and I include most of them, are coasting. If you defend all this shite then I guess you deserve all the shit games served up.
We all have our favourites and obviously Richarlison is one when he's on form but don't start defending the indefensible. We want to see good players at Everton and when they're not putting it in then we have every reason to ask why they're not. But of course because some of us have the temerity to ask these questions then we are effectively driving these players out of the club. Jeez, no wonder we win nothing when people blindly accept any old shit.
62 Posted 16/02/2019 at 08:05:29
63 Posted 16/02/2019 at 08:26:46
My uncle was taken to the races by his boss one time and found himself in the company of Bally. He asked him how he felt about getting barracked after all he had done. Bally told him his expectations of himself were even higher than those in the crowd – "I've been piss-poor and if I'd paid good money to watch, I'd be the first to shout".
The great mans standards did drop after the world cup. Sports scientist were nowhere near where they are today. The Mexican climate did for them, virtually everyone who went to Mexico came back completely spent.
Having said that, Stan: What wouldn't you give for a "piss-poor" Alan Ball today? He'd still be head and shoulders above this lot
64 Posted 16/02/2019 at 09:04:09
Reading what people are saying about the current lot you'd think we were riding high as opposed to going through an awful sequence of 10 losses in 16 games and beaten by a poor Southampton team in the League Cup and fucking Millwall in the FA Cup. But, then again, people are still idolising Lukaku and Barkley both of whom have been found out at better clubs and are warming the bench. United fans in particular are going mad about his lazy attitude. Sound familiar?
Only Stones is top quality with regards to talent, the only reason he got stick was of his attitude to the fans, nobody doubted his talent and he's doing very well at Man City. Barkley and Lukaku have the talent to be as good as Stones but not the application. Same as a lot of the current lot. Give me a Bally or a Cahill, players who maximise what theyve got, to any of the show ponies we have on offer at the moment.
65 Posted 16/02/2019 at 10:32:07
It is only tapping up a player if we do it.
If it's Liverpool or Atletico etc, they are just being ''very naughty boys''.
66 Posted 16/02/2019 at 10:41:16
67 Posted 16/02/2019 at 10:49:08
So who's fault is it when Richarlison plays shite? His fault? The manager's? The culture at Everton? All three?
I ask because I haven't got a clue, but I do know that EFC have done my head in for donkey's years. I suspect there are big problems at Everton, but I don't know what they are, and I'm not going to pretend I do. But many on here seem to jump to conclusions, and we end up with players not just being criticised but being so in the most ridiculous ways based on assumptions rather than knowledge. And none of it is productive.
Alan Ball criticising himself is fine, and perhaps reflects the great character he was. But others doing it at the time is not fine, and I don't think it did any good at all. It never does. It can actually put players off their game even more, which is counter-productive. That's why some people need to get a grip on reality, to realise that they don't know what's going on but are making assumptions.
68 Posted 16/02/2019 at 11:19:23
Lukaku should have kept his gob shut to the media, Koeman should have been more professional in terms of what he said, like saying that Lukaku needed to leave Everton to progress. If I'd been the majority shareholder I wouldn't have tolerated shite like that. Mind you, Moshiri hardly led by example.
So criticism where it's due and we know the facts. But not criticism where it's futile and based on supposition.
69 Posted 16/02/2019 at 11:26:00
70 Posted 16/02/2019 at 11:35:34
Richarlison is in the same boat as the four I mentioned. He wants medals, Champions League football. So it is bound to be the case that rumblings will be heard. They want it all and they want it now. They are not interested in "projects". Careers are short and soon pass so they don't want to waste them plodding along at a mid-table club.
It is up to the club to improve enough so that we can realistically match the ambitions of the top talent. Until this happens, every time we buy or develop a top young player, this will happen.
71 Posted 16/02/2019 at 11:45:58
I still stand by what I've written and it could apply to most of them, to be honest. With the awful run we are on, you look to your better players to help turn it around and he and Sigurdsson and Bernard et al just haven't done that. We go on about how poor we were in the '70s but this lot make the '70s teams look like Barcelona.
72 Posted 16/02/2019 at 12:02:47
Richarlison looks to me like a player going on to the pitch knowing that things aren't going to happen to him, which is why he does the easy stuff like going down too easily. His talent means he will get goals, which like Lukaku, makes him more than useful to the team.
There's no point trying to compare the attitude of today's players to yesterday's. Society has changed, the power is more with the players, the general sense of entitlement is stronger, I'd say footballers are mentally far less resilient, etc.
There's two issues here. One is the lack of a leader/culture within the club to lift the players out of their current malaise. The other is the obsession people have with players who 'look' busy without actually doing that much.
I remember when we played in Split, they had a guy who ran around like a headless chicken, giving away fouls and possession. They also had Vlasic, who looked classy & creative. Most people on here wanted us to buy the headless chicken. I still think Vlasic is worth a go.
The thing I liked about Lukaku, apart from his guaranteed goals, was that like Arteta did, he was constantly in the press telling the club to buy better players, to improve. In other words, saying exactly what I was thinking at the time. And no doubt, what the 'quieter' Stones & Barkley were thinking/saying.
We didn't improve. We didn't buy better players. All three left. The biggest problem is the culture within the club. Until that changes...
73 Posted 16/02/2019 at 12:52:49
Dave Ganley @ various, you yourself identify a couple of reasons why our best young talent moves on from Everton. It's not just a question of them being 'lazy' or 'losing interest' as you try and portray it.
You mention the lack of a nark (or three!) and leaders in the team to ensure standards are maintained, both on and off the pitch.
You yourself mention that various managers have been unable to deliver a sufficiently competitive side to encourage young talent to stick with us.
It is self-evident that the poor governance of Everton under Kenwright in the Premier League era simply didn't provide the finances or infrastructure that could give any manager a sporting chance to sit at the top table.
You (and others) took umbrage at the public declarations and ambitions of these young players in wishing to advance their own careers.
I said it many times when they were with us, I will say it again now: the profile of the likes of Stones, Lukaku, Barkley and Deulofeu, the age (they were), the talent they possessed, the potential they were already displaying, the ambitions they expressed, is very much the kind of profile we should look to develop at Finch Farm, or bring into the club.
I'd be very surprised if that is not the template Brands is applying now in his scouting. I'd ask for one extra ingredient referenced by many: WINNERS! Bad losers. Real narks. Players the opposition hate to face.
I understand the argument about the lack of motivation of young players given the obscene wages even mediocre players can command, but just look at the most talented players on the planet. They don't stay at the top for a decade or more on their talent alone: they all have a hunger, a desire, to be the very best they can every game.
We had a great core of young talent around which to build a genuinely competitive team to satisfy both our own and the players' ambitions.
Given where we were (still are...) at the time, there was an inevitability that those four gems would be moved on.
We have compounded that further under Moshiri by making a host of dogshit buys that we can't move on due to the inflated contracts they are on.
As I said in my opening, Paul Tran is bang on the money, neatly summed up in his closing sentence:
"We didn't improve. We didn't buy better players. All three left [plus Deulofeu]. The biggest problem is the culture within the club. Until that changes..."
74 Posted 16/02/2019 at 12:57:26
75 Posted 16/02/2019 at 13:19:04
My internet is a bit 'laggy' at the moment.
76 Posted 16/02/2019 at 14:26:46
Unlike some on here, I like Tim Vickery, but if he is saying this is a 'cultural' thing about South American football and footballers as if it is unique to the continent, he's talking moonshine. I honestly do not see more exaggerated 'simulation' in Brazilian or South American football then you see every week in the major European leagues.
And before anyone chips in and says that the main culprits of simulation in those leagues are South Americans, they are ignoring the locally born (and other) nationals who also feign fouls and injuries.
Neymar is a terrible example to use as proof positive that South Americans and Brazilians in particular have culturally inherited and innate 'skills' in simulation.
Neymar is just a dick, whatever his origins or nationality, in this regard. He gets fouled a lot, no question. But his theatrics and exaggerated death rolls are atypical of Brazilian footballers in general.
Brazilians are very protective and get very sniffy if a 'gringo', an outsider, has the audacity to criticize any aspect of their country, but even so, I have plenty of folk in my social circle who despair of Neymar and afford him very little sympathy. As you reference Steve, they want more Pele (who was kicked from pillar to post in every game – 1966 v Portugal at Goodison Park, anyone..?), less diver and diva.
A renowned TV commentator and ex-player, Casagrande ('Big House') horrified the viewing audience before last year's World Cup when he called out Neymar and the Brazilian media for not being more critical of his antics. "We are creating a monster from the boy if we allow his on-pitch behaviour to go unchallenged, unchecked".
As in every professional league in the world, players in the Brazilian league try to con the ref into giving them a free kick or penalty, to get a player booked, to relieve pressure and waste time. But certainly no more than the European leagues.
And again, if Vickery, says that it is a big thing in Brazil to con the ref as a way of 'getting one over on the establishment' as some kind of social protest... well... words fail me. That is a total fabrication. Total bollocks.
Personally, I am frequently impressed by the standard of refereeing in Brazil's top league. Given the truly dangerous, murderous (no exaggeration) nature of some of the ultras among Brazilian fans, they are extremely courageous in what they do.
One thing I really don't like about the onfield conduct of Brazilian footballers is how both teams swarm around the referee in protest, sometimes not even for highly contentious decisions, but I am constantly impressed how (outwardly at least) the referees maintain their cool and don't buckle.
I know like me you've watched a lot of Portuguese domestic football, Steve. I can honestly say I totally switched off from watching it due to the extreme levels of violent play in every single game.
Yes, Portuguese footballers are renowned for their skill and technical ability. But the blatant thuggery that occurs in every game is nauseating. It's not subtle. There is no attempt to disguise it. I saw possible career-ending challenges nearly every game. It was reflected in nearly every game with 6, 8, or 10 yellow cards and a red card or two. And there is Shakesperian dramatics going on as well.
I can honestly say I enjoy Brazilian football a lot, LOT more.
On the question of Richarlison, give the lad a break.
We think because he is an adult, earning big money, playing professional football, that he has all the tools to handle 'life'. I see and hear a young man from extremely humble beginnings, still maturing, still unsure of himself, still finding his way in a very alien culture.
It is self-evident he is making little or no progress with his English, that he favours being around Portuguese speakers in training and the like, and probably socially. He is on record as saying his best friend in Liverpool is Firmino from across the park. This hints at his insecurity, a lack in belief in his ability to communicate or socialise comfortably with non-Portuguese speakers.
Silva has done him no favours playing him at #9 for as long as he has, playing the way we have. He is/was getting kicked – like Pele – from pillar to post. He can play that central role, but only if we play like Brazil, keeping it on the carpet and using him as a fulcrum, a pivot, to play one-twos off. NOT lumping the ball forward to him, expecting him to compete with two Orcs at centre-back.
Does he need to man up on the pitch more? Absolutely.
Does he need help and guidance on this question? Absolutely.
Does this make him a bad player? Absolutely NOT!
So, in conclusion, Steve, if Tim Vickery truly has said what you attribute to him, that is not the Brazilian football, footballers, referees I recognize. It most certainly is not a cultural thing, unless you are talking about a 'global culture', rather than a national or regional one.
77 Posted 16/02/2019 at 14:35:29
If an English player had scored the handball, we'd have crucified him for unfair play and cheating, but the Argentines loved it even more because Maradona conned the referee and the world.
Maybe John Pierce, who likes to ring Vickery up, can ask him the question directly for clarification?
78 Posted 16/02/2019 at 14:42:30
We have no-one to score our goals as it is and you say "sell him"! The mind boggles sometimes!!
79 Posted 16/02/2019 at 14:47:48
Someone he calls "an old South American international" apparently replied (to Bobby Charlton about cracking down on diving): "Don't you think, as a professional, that if we can get away with creating an advantage for our side, we really should be applauded?"
I believe there is more tolerance of this type of behaviour in South America, where showing the cunning necessary to get away with something is widely praised. In Brazil it is often said that beating a big rival with an illegal goal adds extra pleasure to the victory. But before we English try to claim the moral high ground we should forget any notions of perfection?
80 Posted 16/02/2019 at 15:05:39
And based on that very narrow sample, I again have to say I honestly don't recall being outraged or even annoyed by Argentinian teams or players' exaggerated simulation, or playing the ref. No more than you see every week in Europe.
Naturally, as the two super-powers of South American football, there is always an edge in any Brazil vs Argentina game, be it international or domestic. You can extend that to ALL sports.
The Brazilians would never have lived it down if Argentina won the World Cup in Brazil four years ago, for example.
What I will say about South American football is this: on my travels I always got a game of footy in, be that in Europe, Asia, Africa or Latin America. Now I always liked the physical part of the game, so never blinked or took a step back when the boots were flying.
Without a doubt, the hardest I constantly got tackled was by South Americans. Nothing sly. Nothing dirty. Just honest-to-goodness 'mano ao mano' going for the ball.
And they like to win. A defender's mantra is, the ball or the man may get past me, but not both!
As I say, I like Tim Vickery, but what you attribute to him doesn't resonate with me and what I see here in Brazil.
81 Posted 16/02/2019 at 15:09:39
82 Posted 16/02/2019 at 15:19:18
I think Vickery's column of 11 years ago is fair and balanced, highlighting as it does an English player like Martin Peters admitting how he tried to con the ref into giving England a penalty in the vital England-Poland game under Alf Ramsey.
The column isn't as extreme or condemning of South American football as you perhaps portrayed in your post @ 31.
ALL professional footballers use tricks to gain an advantage. I remember talking to Alan Ball at a do years ago and he told me he could seriously foul a player in a game and neither the player nor the referee would have a clue that it was done deliberately.
Naturally, during last year's World Cup, there was wall to wall coverage here in Brazil. As I mentioned already, Brazilians get sniffy and protective of criticism about their country and by and large they closed ranks to defend Neymar.
An evening 'footy round-up' show in answer to the English media's criticism of Neymar showed a reel of sly plays and simulation by English players from one game, England vs Colombia. It made for embarrassing viewing.
"Let he who casts the first stone" 'n all that...
83 Posted 16/02/2019 at 15:25:51
84 Posted 16/02/2019 at 15:32:39
I've always thought that Argentina particularly produced good strong defenders, my first recollection being Passarella. I'm trying to remember the other Argie against England 1966 that Joe Mercer used to rave about, Rattan was one, but both were admired for their physical side.
However, the slide tackle leaving man and ball in touch, the shoulder charge particularly on an airborne keeper have all disappeared from the game and more and more players go down at the slightest touch or run into tackles to get free kicks.
Gone is the belief that some intent had to be shown particularly when (booking) carding a player and that the penalty was the awarding of the free kick.
85 Posted 16/02/2019 at 17:19:30
Some think he's a central defender and I'm inclined to agree with them, but he's playing very well at right-back for Albion and Silva will have a big call to make on him and his best position for next season.
86 Posted 16/02/2019 at 17:41:28
As a passionate Blue, you'd think he'd be raging at what he's witnessing
87 Posted 16/02/2019 at 17:42:58
88 Posted 16/02/2019 at 17:49:37
89 Posted 16/02/2019 at 18:03:14
My own view is that your hands should only be tied if you are not any good at your job, and if this is the case then you shouldnt be in the job anyway?
Football can be full of backstabbers, but if you have got good intentions, and speak enough sense, then that should normally be enough to get the right people onside, especially if you have got an aura as big as Duncans?
When I was told Fergusons hands were tied, I asked why he doesnt come out and tell us? The reply was “he might have to soon” so somethings wrong either way IMO, because you only get real results when everyone is pulling in the same way, and this cant be the case at Everton right now, once again.
90 Posted 16/02/2019 at 18:34:24
If we have trouble behind the scenes of any sort, then Silva and Brands must be men enough to erase it and to make a courageous new start.
91 Posted 16/02/2019 at 19:03:37
You would tell your agent. Your agent leaks stuff to the press. The press lap it up and print things with unnamed sources. Your agent uses this to try to gain interest in you so he can get you a move (which is in his financial interest), once a couple of stories leak, the rest also come flooding out.
We've seen it often. Under Moyes when he did lose the players but showed his abilities to get it sorted and put the dressing room back in order. We saw it under Martinez and it led to his sacking, as Lukaku told the club in no uncertain terms that he was off. We saw it frequently under Koeman, even when the going was good. The leaks were more like a river under Allardyce. Yet now, it's deafly silent.
So, Tony, sounds like your mate is chatting shit or Ferguson is.
Would Ferguson be a good coach? To be a good coach you need to be a student of the game and you need to understand it. Does Duncan study the game or understand it? He played you say, well listen to Paul Merson, Charlie Nicholas and Phil Thompson. Those three might have played the game, they might watch a lot of it, but they have not got a clue. My mum knows more about football than those three out together. So having played means nothing.
Is Duncan a student of the game? Most certainly not. This is the guy that once said he didn't even like football and talked at length about never watching a game and spending his time with his pigeons. It is very obvious that Duncan was not a fan of football.
Of course it is feasible that he has rediscovered a passion for football and watches it 24/7, but I doubt it. That's one hell of a personality change.
Coaching is not just about playing five-a-side, eleven-a-side, a few laps of the field, some work in the gym and a few corners.
You need to plan those “spontaneous” movements. You run drills so players learn how to run in different ways to pull a defence apart. And of course the flip side in drilling a defence, working on shape, the line, playing out from the back, and so on. It needs to be varied and fresh.
I don't think Duncan Ferguson is a coach and I certainly don't think he is a manager. If he is, he's had a personality transplant, it's just not in his make-up.
92 Posted 16/02/2019 at 19:27:41
He didn't seem happy with Silva, which might be for obvious reasons, or it might be because there is a real wind of change inside the corridors, or it might be because he loves Everton and he thinks the man in charge is not quite good enough?
Anyway, if Moyes was good enough to change once he'd lost the dressing room, then I would suggest it was because he had some real men inside the same walls, which is what we can all see we are really lacking right now?
Back to Phil Thompson, Steve, and to say he knows nothing about football really does amaze me – unless you are just being as biased as him, of course!
93 Posted 16/02/2019 at 19:31:38
There's no doubting his defensive talent. He has blistering pace, quickness off the mark and great sharpness in the tackle.
However, there's no way he can "bulk up" enough to be's Silva's kind of CB -- at six feet and 145 he's Jagielka's height and 20 pounds lighter. Silva likes bridge towers in the middle of his defense.
What I hope is that his time at WBA is helping him improve his previously pathetic passing game enough to eventually challenge at RB. Reportedly he put in a "peach of a cross" for Robson-Kanu's gamewinner today at Villa.
94 Posted 16/02/2019 at 19:37:22
Did Moyes change once he lost the dressing room? I recall he bounced all the people who opposed him out of the club. I don't think he changed one bit. If anything, he became more negative and cautious.
Tony, on the subject of Thompson, that guy really is clueless about modern football, and that he was in a management capacity only a decade or so ago is really quite alarming. He might know footballers, defending, and the like, but he has no concept of modern tactics or systems.
95 Posted 16/02/2019 at 19:40:46
96 Posted 16/02/2019 at 19:57:39
Maybe Distin, who got totally bombed out by Martinez, and possibly Lukaku, who always just looked like he played for himself anyway?
Steve, I hear what you say about Thompson regarding modern tactics, but as much as I've got time for Marco Silva, (genuinely) I just see a talented coach maybe, who has definitely started running before he can walk?
I like his concept, but football is just like your own profession Steve, and if you've got no defence, then your just not going to win!
97 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:01:35
He needs strong management but he's got a hard side to him which I find promising.
98 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:01:36
99 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:10:13
I wouldnt want Richarlison to be a professional cheat like him but he has got to stop his antics, he is so naive, doesnt help him at all.
100 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:14:36
I cringed when the shrewd judges on here said he wasnt good enough because he was out muscled against West Ham... its even more embarrassing when you look at the way Keane and Mina have been so regularly rag-dolled.
Stones was hounded out of this club by philistines who wouldn`t know a footballer if he ran across their living room in his muddy boots. Now he looks superb. We cant let that happen again with Mason.
101 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:21:36
102 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:23:16
Just as things started getting good they fell apart, and the fact that the manager hasnt altered to counter against this, is obviously the biggest worry. Ive seen signs in the last two games, but tightening us up, has left us even shorter in attack, just now?
I hope this can change, because if he doesnt make us harder to play against, hes not going to last, and we definitely need some stability right now.
103 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:28:21
104 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:28:50
If its more of the same, then yeah, clearly hes either not a good coach afterall or theres nothing that can be done by Silva to get a tune out of that group of players.
105 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:49:42
You always said Rodriguez was a good player, Darren, and as much as I agree with you about Holgate, it wasn't that he was getting outmuscled, it was more to do with why he kept getting drawn into this type of contest, when the kid has got much more about him than that?
106 Posted 16/02/2019 at 20:55:41
107 Posted 16/02/2019 at 23:12:14
Getting rid of complacent hi-earners in the squad is all but impossible regardless of who the manager is. Their presence at Finch Farm really taints whatever it is that a new management team, any new management team, is trying to imbue there.
Too many players are only interested in one thing, their own pay cheque. Ker-ching! And in my opinion even Guardiola, Cruyff, Clough or Catterick would be treated with disdain at Finch Farm.
108 Posted 17/02/2019 at 11:13:38
I haven't read all the comments in this thread, but those calling for us to sell Richarlison are part of the problem with our club at the moment. Have we learned nothing from Stones, Barkley, Lukaku etc???
When you have a good young player who is wanted by Europe's elite clubs, you keep him. You build a team around him.
Or you know, we could sell him and bring in the likes of Marcus Bent and Stephen Naismith because they work hard and spend less time on the floor...
109 Posted 17/02/2019 at 13:34:47
I don't disagree with anything that you put in your post apart from you implying that we shouldn't take umbrage with the way players come out in the media and openly tout themselves into a move. I still believe that the young players mentioned left because of the football club couldn't, wouldn't and or didn't move on in terms of progression. I totally disagree with Darren that stones was hounded out of the club, stones left because city came calling same way they did for Lescott and whatever else you think about City, there's not many who will shun a chance at league titles or cup triumphs, I just wish we could provide them with it.
Maybe I'm just too much of an idealist because my main issue with players is, when it's all going wrong with the team and we're not playing well, then some of the top players just don't seem interested and become lazy. I made the comparison with those and the likes of Tom Davies. Davies, even when he lost form, didn't lose his will to do well and compete, I'm not sure a lot of the star names do that. They do tend to sulk a lot.
The club as a whole are solely to blame for the way we have fallen and the so-called star names want to leave, not the fans. If they provided the proper infrastructure to make sure the first team was competitive, then it wouldn't be an issue. As it is, they have employed several ill-equipped managers and the results are there to see. It's not bad luck that we have plummeted disastrously this season, it's a culmination of poor managers leaving a poor, unbalanced squad and a manager now who is struggling to turn it around.
I've said before that I have sympathy with Silva as he inherited a lot of the mess but he does have to show more for the remainder of the season. As for the players, well for me, they need to show more desire than they are currently doing. Show some professional pride in your own performance. It should be a given but obviously it's not and the players just can't turn it on and off.
For all everybody extolling Lukaku as a superstar, he struggles at Man Utd, can't get a regular game; same with Barkley. As for Deulofeu, well, he can't do better than Watford. There's no doubting the talent of these players but they should be doing much better than they are. For all his talent, Lukaku and Barkley should be shining lights at top clubs – but they're not – and, for me, that's because of poor attitude. Out of the ones mentioned, there's only Stones who is the real deal because he has the right attitude to go along with great talent.
There will always be the debate about "What if they stayed?" and that would have been wonderful if we had them in their prime. We lacked a proper manager and leader on the pitch to truly benefit from them. I'm not being contradictory by saying that either as, aside from them being guided by a leader, there has to be something from within to keep personal performances high despite playing in a misfunctioning team. Only Stones can say he has that, I'm afraid. I hope that Richarlison proves that he has it too.
110 Posted 18/02/2019 at 00:25:07
I mean, the lads 21 years old, our top scorer, and a Brazillian international... We have players like that everywhere throughout the squad, let's sell him! 🤦♂️
111 Posted 18/02/2019 at 04:08:29
112 Posted 19/02/2019 at 09:41:57
113 Posted 19/02/2019 at 20:50:33
How we can expect to challenge the top 6 in the near future the way we are at the moment I don't know, but in Bernard, Pickford, Digne, Richarlison, with the potential of Lookman, hopefully a settled and up-to-speed Mina we have the start of a decent squad with a number of others that have value too, Siggy and Gueye if he decides to stay.
Even Calvert-Lewin would be a useful squad player with possibly Keane. Vlasic may return wanting to prove a point and, by all accounts, the player we have yet to see, Onyekuru, is doing well and should come to us next season and add to the first team.
But we signed frankly a lot of rubbish, we need to add quality. And well, Icardi would be a nice thought.
114 Posted 20/02/2019 at 20:06:09
Two minutes in and I'm already regretting it
115 Posted 20/02/2019 at 20:17:13
116 Posted 20/02/2019 at 20:30:09
117 Posted 20/02/2019 at 20:53:09
118 Posted 20/02/2019 at 21:01:09
119 Posted 21/02/2019 at 04:55:44
I couldn't agree with you MORE. Absolutely right in what you are saying. He is probably the most overrated and certainly overpriced
player I have watched for a long time.
His attitude is appalling and although his workrate may be above average, he always ends up on his arse looking for the referee we don't need him!!
If he was going to Improve? He would have... He hasn't and he isn't going to.
120 Posted 21/02/2019 at 12:31:26
2016-17 24 league goals 34 appearances
2017-18 29 league goals 34 appearances
2018-19 9 league goals 20 appearances
Despite all the issues this season, he is just off 1:2 and the previous seasons his record is great. We need a striker and I don't see anyone else around at the moment at the right age and record, from watching him for Inter I think he could do very well in the Premier League and well, each of the top6 have far better quality up front than we do, if we want to get there we either have to get lucky with a young one or buy quality and Icardi is quality.
I said I don't think he'd come or even consider, he will no doubt have a number of Champions League sides interested, Barca, Real, Man Utd, Chelsea and maybe from Germany too. But wouldn't it be nice in a year or two if the gossip about Everton was about signing top players rather than Richarlison to Atletico and Gueye to PSG. Still feels that we a Champions League feeder club: Lukaku, Stones, Arteta. Richarlison has done well, he can be frustrating but if we ditch him to the 2nd best club in Spain, why do fans think we will be anything but a mid table also-ran?
121 Posted 21/02/2019 at 14:02:02
Last season at Watford: 41 appearances, 5 goals. A goal every 606 minutes.
This season at Everton: 28 appearances, 11 goals. A goal every 192 minutes.
And that, to you, isn't improvement.
122 Posted 22/02/2019 at 05:35:28
123 Posted 22/02/2019 at 20:52:11
You have to wonder if people on here are Liverpool fans the utter nonsense that appears.
124 Posted 24/02/2019 at 03:07:15
125 Posted 28/02/2019 at 12:38:17
The kid has some talent, but his confidence is shot to pieces, and his ability has disappeared with it – same as when he was at Watford.
He runs into defenders when he's one on one, shows zero ability to go past a man, has no tricks, no pace, no fight in him, nothing. Maddening to watch.
The question is, how to get him back to enjoying playing football again because at the moment he looks like he's had enough.
126 Posted 09/03/2019 at 18:53:38
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