The Dutch side features two players from the Everton Ladies' ranks in the form of Inessa Kaagman and Kika van Es who, having knocked out Sweden in extra time, will be looking to take down the seemingly unstoppable American machine.
Reader Comments (102)
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1 Posted 06/07/2019 at 13:18:01
This time I'm the least optimistic we can win it.
Beforehand I said I'd be pleased if they reached the semi's.
Well they did more than that!
But only the second half of the quarters against Italy have they played well.
Especially the wingers have disappointed thus far. Lieke Martens (voted best player in the world! - though she does have a toe injury) and Shanice v/d Zanden have not shown what they are capable of, on the wings.
When we became European Champions, they made the difference
Vivienne Miedema (voted best player in the women's EPL has not been at her best, though she did score some nice goals.
I'd give us a 30% chance, but as Frank Rijkaard once famously said, the ball is round..
2 Posted 06/07/2019 at 16:43:38
Next season - number of goals from open play halved, number of goals from penalties doubled. Is this really what we want?
3 Posted 06/07/2019 at 17:00:03
4 Posted 06/07/2019 at 17:35:55
I'm really afraid that it is going to ruin the game, and rather than even the field when it comes to penalties and contraversial decisions, it will be used to "help" the top teams by scrutinizing opposing teams more than themselves..
I've always thought referees have favoured certain teams, not always by big decisions, but by giving questionable fouls to break up our attacking play. Fouls given in midfield are really criticized, but can have a big influence in a game.
I have a feeling that VAR will be used in a similar, subtle way.
5 Posted 06/07/2019 at 19:09:47
Fast approaching 81, nine days and counting, I readily admit to being a dinosaur, but I'm afraid that football as we know it will soon be a thing of the past, I fear that there will be no place for human error, unless it's by someone 200 miles from the action, referees and linesmen will be replaced by hooters and sirens, and the laws of the game will be reviewed every season. Age won't deter me, poor performances from Everton won't deter me, VAR and constant alterations to the laws of the game will signal the final straw.
In defence of Mike Gaynes, it would appear that he's from a country that regard the uncertainty, as a vital part of the entertainment, and it seems that they can't understand how a game can end with honours even.
6 Posted 06/07/2019 at 19:36:15
7 Posted 06/07/2019 at 19:58:10
8 Posted 06/07/2019 at 20:24:53
9 Posted 07/07/2019 at 01:52:45
With both Martens and Shanice dealing with injury issues and their backline making mistakes, I agree that they're a longshot to beat the US, but at this point they'd be my favorites to win the next one. This is a gifted young side that needs only WC finals experience, which they are about to get.
Thanks for the callouts, guys, but I'd rather talk about the game. The subject of VAR has worn itself out for now, and we'll have plenty of time to discuss it further when the Prem starts up.
10 Posted 07/07/2019 at 13:32:21
11 Posted 07/07/2019 at 15:15:08
Big day for US Soccer - ladies in WC final and men in Gold Cup final against Arch-Nemesis Mexico.
12 Posted 07/07/2019 at 15:18:35
13 Posted 07/07/2019 at 15:24:12
Honestly think that the USA, will lose today, but Im not sure how the men will get on, in what must be a bit of a grudge match against Mexico.
A question for the American boys, which game would you prefer to win? And dont say the two of them because thats too obvious!
14 Posted 07/07/2019 at 16:08:32
Tim Howard once said the Liverpool and Manchester derby's were like friendlies compared to facing the hostile Mexicans in their own back yard
15 Posted 07/07/2019 at 16:54:10
Which game would I prefer to win? Both! 😜. But if I had to pick one Id say the ladies.
Its a WC Final. Has to take precedent.
16 Posted 07/07/2019 at 17:14:18
That drive is a lovely memory because Id never been driven surrounded by water on all sides, but it wasnt weird mate, it was brilliant, but isnt everything when youre young, and having a laugh with your mates!
Enjoy the day Amigos, it seems like it must be a great day to be alive in the good old USA!
17 Posted 07/07/2019 at 19:37:03
But we had another VAR moment.
I've not said anything on the subject here yet.
My tuppence: It's novel, and due to modification.
It's certainly not perfect. I think most football fans are agreed to that.
I've not spoken with anyone who likes it as it is, over here.
The penalty given, was another joke.
Stefanie v/d Gragt did touch the ball, ever so slightly, and only visible from one camera angle, before she collided into the American player.
However, the ball was always going out for a goal-kick, totally unreachable for any American player.
How on earth a penalty can be given for this is a total mystery to me.
Yes, the defender was high with her foot.
But not that high! And she got to the ball first.
Luckily the match was not decided by that moment.
The second goal was very good. No problems with that at all.
Again I found the Dutch team to be playing poorly, had it not been for the keeper Sari van Veenendaal (the wo-man of the match), the score would have much higher.
Again, the wingers failed, the Dutch tactics, a 4-4-1-1 formation looked good on paper, but in practice failed.
As an emancipated country, the women could do no better than the men, losing a World Cup final for the fourth time. It's no shame losing to a country with almost 15 times as many inhabitants.
Next year the Olympics.
I have no idea how many non-English players will make the GB team.
And how many of this USA team will be partaking.
But then again, the ball is round.
18 Posted 07/07/2019 at 20:11:36
The defender van der Gragt did not touch the ball, Morgan did. And she did not "collide" with Morgan. She kicked her solidly in the chest, knocked her down, albeit accidentally. That was a nailed-on, stone-solid penalty.
The referee missed it -- she thought the defender had kicked the ball out and gave a corner. VAR proved otherwise, and it was a very short delay and a very short look at the VAR screen by the ref. No complaints by the Dutch, either at the time or afterwards. They knew it too.
And that is exactly how VAR is supposed to work -- spot and correct clear and obvious errors, and do so in a very short time. The delay was less than a minute. On this occasion, VAR worked perfectly.
19 Posted 07/07/2019 at 20:15:16
VAR ? . . I could weep
RIP football as we know and love it.
20 Posted 07/07/2019 at 21:02:50
Congratulations to the American girls, maybe they can bring a little bit of their professionalism to the White House, and let it rub off on Trump!
21 Posted 07/07/2019 at 21:03:58
I assume our Brazil contingent of Fran and Jay are watching the Copa America final. Great atmosphere there.
22 Posted 07/07/2019 at 21:14:28
23 Posted 07/07/2019 at 21:58:43
Today was probably the end of an era... they were the oldest team in the tournament, and I expect the Netherlands, England and France will all pass the US in the rankings over the next four years.
24 Posted 07/07/2019 at 22:02:40
It creates more arguments than it resolves and is another sad example of modern sport creating artificial 'incidents' that will never be as dramatic as the sport itself.
Have the US TV companies started selling adverts in the VAR breaks yet?
25 Posted 07/07/2019 at 23:10:07
I didn't want it to be a pen. I immediately said to my wife, "Never a pen. I hope this isn't a pen. I want them to earn the win from open play. Not back into it by taking the lead on a pen."
I thought Alex Morgan made a meal of it.
It was a penalty. But it was ever so soft, and I understand the outcry to reign in VAR, no matter how much I support it.
The better team won. But I'd have preferred us to score from open play to win the World Cup. The game changed immensely after the pen. The number of odd-man (woman) counters the USA had after that pen was insane. And they typically did terribly (looking at you Alex Morgan) finishing those opportunities.
Still proud. Still happy. Understand the outcry.
Now onto the Gold Cup, and for the love of God please, please beat the Mexicans!!!
26 Posted 07/07/2019 at 23:17:17
27 Posted 07/07/2019 at 23:18:37
28 Posted 08/07/2019 at 06:08:41
29 Posted 08/07/2019 at 07:16:12
The "forward rushed in to her raised leg"???
Your version of events is a fairy tale worthy of a Disney movie.
That was as clear and obvious a penalty as there could be. The ball went over the defender's head and Morgan took it on her chest as the defender kicked at the ball. She kicked Morgan in the shoulder. Solidly. From behind. And her studs were NOT down. They were up. They went directly into Morgan's shoulder and raked down.
Intent? Don't be ridiculous. When you kick that high and get the player and not the ball, it's a foul. And in this case an absolutely stonewall penalty.
Every commentator said so, in English and Spanish. (I watched it on both.) Every news report said so. The only people who say otherwise are those who despise VAR so much that they can't stand the fact that in this case VAR correctly, properly detected a nailed-on pen that the ref couldn't see.
30 Posted 08/07/2019 at 07:42:06
31 Posted 08/07/2019 at 07:48:16
32 Posted 08/07/2019 at 08:00:52
33 Posted 08/07/2019 at 08:03:09
You know, you're right. This photo clearly shows Morgan initiating the contact. And those silver things sticking into Morgan are definitely not the defender's studs.
34 Posted 08/07/2019 at 08:11:52
The issue with VAR is that when an offside/red card decision is made via VAR then why not play back the VAR back a little further. As there is likely to have been some infringement that influenced what later took place- logically you could carry this process until the match was replayed.
35 Posted 08/07/2019 at 12:35:37
The player herself admitted it. she added that there was no hard contact, and that Morgan cleverly made more of it. As some on here have noted too.
As written earlier, this was luckily not the deciding moment. The second goal was very good.
p.s. Steef is a local girl, from Heerhugowaard. I've played Bridge several times against uncles of her.
36 Posted 08/07/2019 at 12:57:16
Previously, it's been said that challenges which go unpunished in the penalty area are often given as fouls when they occur outside the box. Now, with VAR, the opposite will be true - any tiny offence in the box will be a penalty, but the same offence could well be missed in the centre circle. The article also suggested that there was an unfairness about this - why should it only be in the penalty area that mistakes go to VAR?
For example, let's say we play the Shite and they constantly get away with fouls outside the box that break up our play but, as soon as we score, VAR is used to correct a tiny offside error by the linesman? Goals aren't only scored in the box, and goals are just as likely to be prevented by a foul further up the field stopping a breakaway attack.
So my suggestion: In the interests of fairness, VAR should be constantly in use for the full 90 minutes, with all decisions being taken remotely. Get rid of the ref and linesmen completely.
37 Posted 08/07/2019 at 13:22:11
Total deflation waiting for someone watching a screen to make a decision. In some instances it may be ok but nit picking decisions it will ruin the game for the most important people, (and they are the spectators) and when all is said and done the game will be nothing without them.
38 Posted 08/07/2019 at 13:30:27
I was actually thinking about the 1984 Milk Cup Final, and Howard Kendall saying that hed never seen so many fouls given to Sharp outside the box, but when the same incident happened inside, the ref never gave Everton a penalty even once.
“Its black and white, its black and white” repeat one thousand times, because it doesnt matter if a player is playing for it or not, football has become black and white!
39 Posted 08/07/2019 at 15:12:37
But her contact with Morgan was not inconsequential:
Morgan is definitely a player to "make more" of a foul, but I'd suggest this was not such an occasion.
40 Posted 08/07/2019 at 15:18:41
Have you actually attended a match where VAR was used and found your viewing experience ruined? Have you spoken with fans who have? Have you even read news accounts where such fans were quoted?
If not, what is the source of your sweeping statement?
Many here have predicted the demise of the fan experience due to VAR, as William #37 does, but as far as I know you're the first to assert that it has already occurred. Please support the assertion.
41 Posted 08/07/2019 at 15:43:15
But Holland fought well, and it was a great game, and it was a great tournament.
VAR is one thing that has changed the game, but another even greater development is that now, Women's football is on the map. It will only get stronger and bigger from here on in.
On this, would be great to guarantee that ToffeeWeb keeps us up to date with all things Everton including the women's team. I guess that the Women's premier league will soon recieve the investment it should have had a long time ago.
42 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:01:21
I enjoyed the tournament in France a lot more.
43 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:02:21
The other suggestion was to go to a summer season, which I believe they used to have. Sounds a better idea to me. When we're all desperate for a bit of footie, might be good to have something to watch.
Anyway, it's definitely a great time to push the women's game.
44 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:34:03
What is needed is genuine investment, developing the grassroots, and building a fanbase. From those that I know, and from what I saw, there is a huge female fanbase that can drive female game. My female friends here are enthusiastic about the women's game, whilst the majority were always rather non-plussed by the men's game.
So for the women's game to grow, it needs to grow via the female fanbase too.
The fanbase at the average game at Goodison is what? 20% female, maybe less? I'd hazard a guess that if Everton women play, it'll be 70% or more.
So it needs to be seen independently to the mens game. One thing I know, there is more of a chance of Everton women winning the 'women's premier league', then we do of seeing the men.
45 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:36:46
46 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:40:35
Without Ertz it I think the Peloton will catch them up, Mike alluded to it and I thinks he right.
The penalty...well I personally would never give it, but once VAR intervenes its been reduced to contact or no contact. Thats the sad part. All the considerations which go into giving a pivotal call like that are reduced to the binary. On that judgment its a pen. Sigh.
For me; the Dutch player is first to the ball, Morgan is behind her and not yet close enough to challenge. As the ball further approaches the Dutch foot is up, Morgan is still not able to compete, tellingly her hand go up, and she looks away as she arrives, she is not playing the ball. There is no discernible touch and her follow through contacts Morgan, who, already knows shes in the wrong place and exacerbates the contact. It was careless yes, and the follow through of an attempt to clear the ball, it wasnt a tackle or a reckless attempt to endanger the player.
It also was far from the level of foul against both sides that had been either missed or allowed to go.
All these factors play a part in a decision yet VAR reduced that to contact or not even though Morgan was not able to get in a position to compete for the ball. Not for that.
47 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:42:15
I have attended 47 seasons worth of Everton home games (plus a few hundred away games) so I think can comment on the difference between VAR and non VAR games - and I might have a fair understanding of what fans who attend the games might think.
What first hand evidence is your opinion founded upon ? - Please dont tell me about other sports that use it successfully because football is it?
48 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:57:23
I can't think of a single one.
The one time we needed it, away to Milwall in the FA Cup last season, the FA foolishly allowed a two-tier system, accepting that non-PL were not obliged to have VAR for their home games.
49 Posted 08/07/2019 at 16:59:18
50 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:03:50
51 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:05:09
52 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:08:21
53 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:16:34
And I'm not even cracked up.
54 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:25:11
55 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:28:12
You might recall the Swansea-Man City cup tie in which Swansea went 2-0, but lost 3-2. Like Milwall, Swansea are a Championship side. If VAR had been in operation, possibly two of City's three goals would have been ruled out.
So Ed, just two Everton games that you can recall in which VAR was in operation. Can you recall a single controversial moment, or prolonged decision making process in either of those two games, that seriously detracted from your match attending pleasure?
Let's critique VAR on actual events, not imagined ones.
56 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:47:07
Martin #49, yep, I remember that. But I was pretty sure you hadn't talked to Ed about it. ;>)
JP #46, we must have been watching a different play. Morgan was past the defender when the ball in was deflected over the defender's head. Not only did Morgan compete for the ball, she won it, played it off her chest. The defender turned and kicked at it, and got Morgan instead right after Morgan played it. Observe if you will the photo linked in my response at #39. The photo clearly shows solid contact on Morgan's shoulder by the defender's studs just after the ball has come off her chest -- and that contact is from behind Morgan. I'm amazed that you can dismiss that photo as a depiction of a no-foul. To me it's a clear pen. And no complaints from the Dutch, either at the time or afterwards.
57 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:54:53
City vs Spurs CLSF
PSG vs Man U CLQF
Man U vs Reading Cup QF
Burnley vs Barnsley Cup QF
To name but a few
Not however Everton vs Lincoln as you rightly say Martin as it wasnt chosen as a trial game - so apologies for that error - might seem great for armchair fans but for those of us who actually are in the ground its a load of shite, creates confusion. and is still totally subjective and often wrong. Just like non VAR referees decisions.
Point in question - Spurs handball against the RS in the CL final - Penalty or not? - VAR didnt really clear that it up did it?
58 Posted 08/07/2019 at 17:58:38
What do they expect, shit happens no matter what so we have to accept it. Mostly the team that loses or their fans will complain the loudest when a VAR decision is unfavorable but what else is there.
59 Posted 08/07/2019 at 18:19:21
As for your list of games, my recall of, for example, the calls in the City-Spurs game was that it ADDED to the theatre on the night for the live (and TV) audience, rather than detracted from it.
For me, VAR worked very well at last year's WC and for the most part in the CL where used last season. Unquestionably, in the summer tournaments where it is being used, FIFA and regional federations following FIFA rule changes and instructions things have tipped too far and that needs addressing.
If things are not reviewed and the confusion and long delays continue, then I will also arm myself with a pitchfork and flaming torch to protest about it. But I'm not there yet.
60 Posted 08/07/2019 at 18:21:06
I thought this VAR lark was to eliminate doubt, put everyone's mind at rest that the correct decision will be arrived at. . but even after 20 viewings from 10 different angles we still cant get people to agree on whether it was a penalty or not.
Ditch it. Football is an unrehearsed live entertainment. warts and all. VAR kills it as a spectacle and when all said and done, the call is still in the eye of the beholder.
Football has thrived for over a century, it`s a global game and is STILL spreading . . why the fuck do some people feel the need to "fix it" ?
61 Posted 08/07/2019 at 19:03:39
62 Posted 08/07/2019 at 19:08:45
think it will empty grounds quicker than Baywatch
63 Posted 08/07/2019 at 19:18:07
I admire your faith, mate, but I think you're betting on a horse that will never get out of the gate.
64 Posted 08/07/2019 at 19:30:40
I don't see Sky putting up with fans switching to the racing or whatever other sport is on, because they don't want to wait for a referee to watch an incident 10 times only to fuck his decision anyway.
Just read the comments on here.
65 Posted 08/07/2019 at 19:32:38
I agree with Mike, that the powers that be, wont want to look stupid and backtrack now that VAR, is here.
I agree with Darren, that its taking all the emotion out the game, its still creating arguments, and it might just kill the game, with everything becoming so black and white.
“I predict a riot”, is how I see VAR, in its present guise?
66 Posted 08/07/2019 at 20:10:04
I have stated on other posts, my support of goal-line technology because it provides an instant decision, and I consider the introduction of the spray at free kicks, so simple it's the work of a genius.
I acknowledge that you may well have been brought up watching sports that feature VAR, and are more suited to such treatment. I respect your views but at 81 [next Monday], the use of VAR is more likely to deter me attending matches than anything else.
67 Posted 08/07/2019 at 20:25:19
It's going to be very difficult for the powers that be to admit they got it wrong, if indeed it is deemed that they did get it wrong.
Very sad though
68 Posted 08/07/2019 at 20:34:29
We will have to agree to disagree. Goal line technology I am fine with because it is an objective mathematical decision made by a sensor and a computer which can tell you how many cm the ball is or is not over the line. VAR is still a subjective decision and it delays the game. Remember the adage the referees decision is final, we might need to change that until when the referee has finally made a decision. Apparently. VAR replays are going to be shown in grounds? - is that correct -? if they are I can see trouble ahead.
69 Posted 08/07/2019 at 20:53:59
I personally think it would be much easier to prove the cheating, but why should a player stay on his feet, if hes going to get away with a penalty?
Just watched Jay Woods link, showing Jesus carrying on like a little kid, but hes only young, he shouldnt have been sent-off for that foul, so it really does seem that VAR, can be very selective at times?
Goal-line technology is fine, but I personally think they should have stripped the laws right back, once they decided to introduce such controversial technology, (VAR) and I know they arent making it up as they go along, but with everything becoming black or white, it doesnt seem to matter no more, and the most emotional sport in the world, is definitely going to lose its soul, without change?
70 Posted 08/07/2019 at 21:02:36
71 Posted 08/07/2019 at 21:07:45
VAR allows the application of the letter of the law. That said, it allows it to be done accurately. The slight contact with the English player in our box in the USA-England game that resulted in the penalty being awarded, was, in slow motion, correct, although I doubt that 19 out of 20 refs would give it in real-time, myself included.
Contrary to the opinion of some on here, it has not destroyed the fans' enjoyment in the Bundesliga. Goals are regularly chalked off and other plays reviewed. The stadia are quite full and I see no one leaving as a result of the VAR time.
Perhaps the happier medium would be to only use VAR for offsides calls and for review when a ref gives a penalty rather than a review of whether a penalty should have been given in the cases where it was not. This then lets the ref be the judge in that instance while in the actual flow of the game and to consider intent, positioning, amount of contact, etc.)
For those that disagree with this suggestion, I will only note that on every set piece and corner there is a foul in the box that VAR could review and require a penalty or a free kick be given. VAR has not been expanded to this but there is an argument that it should be in the interest of fair application of the laws of the game and the application of VAR in an even-handed manner.
72 Posted 08/07/2019 at 21:17:49
I also agree with the clear daylight for offsides. Where on the body is offside given at the moment? If its feet, are you penalised for having size 13 feet compared to size 8? If its chest, could you have your back to goal (in an offside position) but your chest onside? The margin for offsides at the moment is ridiculous and does not give anyone an advantage. If it was clear daylight for offside VARs, then there would be less arguing as the player would have to be blatantly offside for it to be given. After all, isnt the advantage meant to be given to the attacking players?
73 Posted 08/07/2019 at 21:28:05
It wasnt that aggressive, he went with his side, (which was definitely more his arse than his elbow) but I suppose we all see things differently, even when its black or white.
The kid definitely needs to grow-up, but he felt hard done by, playing in a final for his country, and if he wasnt on his last warning then I dont believe it was enough to produce a second yellow, and I would be surprised by anyone who thinks he should have been sent-off for that.
We all see the game differently Terry, but by trying to judge, as if I was the defender who was heading that ball, then I wouldnt have thought Jesus had tried to do me, more he was just being impetuous, (acting the c..t) and thats why Id like to see a sin-bin introduced, because your team will still be disadvantaged, whilst you think about how stupid youve just been, and definitely think this is another thing that needs looking at?
Football is getting stripped of emotion, but thats only my personal view, and is why I watch so very little of it these days.
74 Posted 08/07/2019 at 21:44:25
Tony #69, VAR wasn't used in Gabriel Jesus being sent off. For my money the 2nd yellow was a bit harsh, but the ref was watching him very carefully for signs of retaliation after another incident. His infantile tantrum afterwards is what should get him banned from a few internationals going forward.
John #66, so we agree on the rules changes, if not VAR. I just think it would be a shame for you to miss games on account of the latter, and I hope it won't have such a profound affect on you, because I really don't think it will affect the game as much as you think. And I still want to go to Goodison with you!
75 Posted 08/07/2019 at 22:20:46
76 Posted 08/07/2019 at 22:21:06
The offside law [law 11], in my time of watching and playing football, has gone from being level, and the attacker is deemed offside, to being level and the attacker is deemed onside, and then later, that there should be daylight between defender and attacker, before offside is given. Now with the advent of wall-to-wall TV coverage and VAR, the law has been changed to what we witness in today's game, hairline decisions.
The roles of the referee, and what I still refer to as linesmen, have been taken over by the TV cameras, lines across the screen, the game is still controlled by humans but from a distance, and this is considered progress?
77 Posted 08/07/2019 at 22:56:15
Terry #75, is it your understanding that the Prem will use VAR to make or review yellow card decisions? I hadn't heard that. I'm accepting of VAR but that particular application of it would be rampant idiocy.
78 Posted 09/07/2019 at 02:00:52
The player Jesus took out the second time had, just a few minutes earlier, been booked himself for a cynical foul, bundling Jesus over the touchline as he attempted to break away.
Maybe the ref saw it as a bit of retribution. Like yourself, I thought both yellow cards were harsh, but possibly we are basing our opinions on our time playing football. In today's game - in the same way if in rugby you tackle a bloke while he jumps for the ball with both feet off the ground - such challenges in football are now considered wreckless and uncontrolled with the real risk of injury the player on the receiving end.
Still on the Copa America, there was a very, VERY interesting item on the final in tonight's national news, a full 24 hours after the game.
* Given that it is a full 12 years since Brazil last won the title
* Given that it was the trainer Tite's first title with the national team
* Given that Alison was named the goalkeeper of the tournament
* Given that Everton was named MoTM and picked up the leading goal scorer award
* Given that Dani Alves was named best player of the tournament AND racked up his world record 40th title as the skipper of the team
You would think that Globo (the biggest TV network in Brazil) would have plenty of alternatives to showcase for a news item.
But they chose none of the above and went with...our Richarlison!
As I've previously reported, he is really liked in Brazil and he continues to enhance his reputation. They did a lovely piece with him and his family before the Copa America when he promised to dedicate any goal he scored to his great-grandmother.
Last night, in the post-match live interviews, he was asked what was the name of his great-grandmother...and he had a brain fade and couldn't remember! Obviously it plagued him because a few minutes later, when they were interviewing Casimiro, Richarlison reappeared to interrupt and say his great-grandmother's name!
They joked about that in the piece they did with him today, but they revealed the very, very close relationship he now shares with the ultra professional Dani Alves. Some of you might recall in the group phase Brazil beat Peru 5-0 and Dani Alves scored. In celebration, he made a point of pointing to Richarlison (who was on the bench and not playing) then imitated Richarlison's pigeon dance.
Richarlison also praised Alves for calling and texting him all the time when he was quaratined from the team for four days, including sending him a photo of an empty chair alongside Alves indicating how Richarlison was missed.
I was surprised when Richarlison stepped up to take the penalty, but he revealed tonight how that happened. Dani Alves was the designated penalty taker of those remaining on the pitch (Jesus sent off, Coutinho and Firmino substituted) and Richarlison approached his skip and said 'Let me take this skip. I'll score.' And to his enormous credit, Alves agreed.
On reflection, who would you prefer our boy to be mixing with and learning from? Neymar, or Alves..? Not even close, is it?
79 Posted 09/07/2019 at 04:01:49
80 Posted 09/07/2019 at 05:02:41
Those inconsistencies will never be worked out completely. They will always be there. Over time, as the use of VAR is improved, those inconsistencies will be reduced, but the system will never be perfect. VAR is intended to make things better, not infallible.
The dire predictions that VAR will "ruin the sport" and the calls to "ditch it" are always heard when replay is first brought in, when the imperfections are obvious. And as the imperfections are slowly corrected, the objections always fade over time and replay/VAR becomes accepted as a part of the game. It has happened in every other sport in which replay systems have been deployed. Every one, without exception. It will happen in football.
81 Posted 09/07/2019 at 06:35:47
Mike Riley has already hinted England will not enforce the feet rule with goalkeepers on penalty kicks, he has also suggested grappling at corners and free kicks may go the same way.
It feels like ‘cultural norms may play apart in what kind of VAR we get.
All we know for sure is. Penalty for Liverpool.
82 Posted 09/07/2019 at 07:41:11
1. Will it lead to referees abdicating responsibility and going to VAR unnecessarily? The England penalty in the semi was blatant. It was a disgrace that it went to VAR at all, a bigger disgrace that it took so long to make the decision.
2. Is it a push to make the game 'more exciting' in these days of shorter attention span & hungry TV advertising folk?
3. How much will VAR be used to back up & justify these ridiculous new laws, rather than giving referees orders to give penalties/cards for holding, grappling, etc.
4. Who is monitoring the monitors and how is their performance measured? That would give us a clue to the real intention behind VAR.
I appreciate there will be some bedding in with this. VAR's usefulness spends on the intent of the authorities and their willingness to retreat from over-using their new toy.
Football is a game that is meant to flow, with human contact, refereed by people who actually understand the game and the movement of footballers. My chief concern is that VAR at give us a staccato game (for US TV?) with weak referees too willing to go to the studio for verification and players/fans crying for VAR at any opportunity.
83 Posted 09/07/2019 at 08:10:01
No, I do not think it is a push to make the game more exciting. I think it is a push to get more calls right.
Regarding the "flow" of football, of course you're right, but I would point out that hockey is even faster, with fewer natural stoppages and much more human contact. And the NHL has steadily expanded its use of instant replay since 1991, reviewing goals, offside and potentially serious penalties, and allowing coach's challenges. It is wholly accepted by players, coaches and fans, even with the occasional delays and goal-overrule letdowns.
One thing frequently mentioned here by VAR skeptics is that last point -- supposedly fans will stop going to games because their goal celebrations sometimes come for naught. Fact is, hockey fans go just as crazy as footy fans when a goal is scored (plus the train whistles, pounding music and flashing lights), but they've grown accustomed to having some goals overruled by replay, and it hasn't hurt hockey attendance one bit -- in fact it's growing steadily.
As to the balance of VAR vs. referee independence... well, that will just be worked out over time, as it has in all the other sports. But it will certainly be a rough and uncertain ride this first season.
84 Posted 09/07/2019 at 08:27:35
Where do you draw the line? Because VAR, in its present guise is throwing up more questions than answers imo?
85 Posted 09/07/2019 at 08:45:29
VAR, to my mind, is probably the most intrusive of all these changes, and the most unneccesary, but we will get used to it pretty quickly. It will be just one more thing to moan about.
Having said that, Tony is right IMO - it will be almost impossible to have consistency without pulling back a thousand incidents and taking them to VAR. There will surely be more discussions on MOTD about the refereeing errors that AREN'T looked at, than the ones that are?
86 Posted 09/07/2019 at 11:35:40
Niasse got banned for diving, even though the ref said he still thought the player hadnt deceived him, and yet Maddison, is caught diving, hook line and sinker, to get a fellow professional sent off, yet he goes unpunished?
Ive often questioned the ulterior motives of some referees, and honestly think my suspicions will only get worse, once these decisions are made in the VAR STUDIO?
Paul T, I think Jay Woods is correct, when he says we tend to make our decisions on how it was when we used to play ourselves, and thats why I thought it was never a penalty, when England were awarded that pen against the USA.
“What was she waiting for” I thought, “why didnt she just get to the ball early and smash it into the goal” instead of waiting for it to come right across her body? So going back to Terry@79, I could just imagine the fight we would have been having if we were both on the panel for that game Paul!
87 Posted 09/07/2019 at 12:52:06
You don't even have to leave this thread to see crystal clear evidence that it is likely to do exactly that.
What is fascinating is; who is opposed and who is in favour. Myself (50 years attending) Tony Abrahams (30-35 ? years attending) John Mac (70 years attending ) ALL state clearly that there is a very real possibility of us staying away from at least some games due to this coma inducing game killer. Read the comments. Honest comments and they come straight from the horses mouth.
I can see the appeal for armchair fans. As soon as a contentious issue comes up, They can nip to the fridge and get a beer, or a sarnie while a decision is made. Non-action is so much easier to endure when you're sprawled on your sofa, They can even log into the live forum and ask others what they think while the ref looks at the incident from 12 different angles. They don't need to worry about traffic, buses, trains after the game. The kids losing interest as their toes freeze. Their match day commitment starts 5 minutes before the game and ends 5 minutes later.
And before anybody starts bleating and throwing up the " You think you're a better blue" shite. Let me say; I spent over 3/4 of last season as an armchair fan. I'm judging nobody, nor am I claiming superiority for any section of the fan base. I'm simply pointing out its a different experience.
The argument that it has worked in other sports has absolutely no relevance whatsoever. Egg chasing was always stop-start.
This is EPL football. The match goer gets impatient enough with lengthy delays taking throw ins and Goal kicks. if he wanted to see even lengthier delays caused by officials he could always go and watch the daft arsed American version and get all of 11-12 minutes action - per quarter.
I think its fair to say the three clubs promoted to the EPL this season are bigger than the three clubs who went down. However. I still believe that average attendances for EPL games in the second half of next season will be lower than they were in the second half of the last.
Will it be the end of football ? it will for some. There is a very real possibility that life long traditionalists will be driven away by meddling, well meaning Johnny-come-lately's
Football ?. . I guess it depends on what football is to you as an individual, but its not football as I know it
88 Posted 09/07/2019 at 13:08:56
As Darren says above, VAR, at the very least, will make fans of the game, match going fans, think is it worth it, in its present form, and with apologies to fans of other sports who use it, I couldnt give a whatchamorecallit.
89 Posted 09/07/2019 at 13:30:14
Compared to Sky constantly shifting matches at short notice to ridiculous times of day for example, or Allardyce being put in charge, my gut feeling is that the introduction of VAR will have a lesser effect on attendences.
90 Posted 09/07/2019 at 13:41:33
91 Posted 09/07/2019 at 14:28:57
Goal-line technology is definitely evolution, but people sitting inside a box, telling the ref that hes got a decision wrong, “IN THEIR OPINION” is something Im just not sure about?
If VAR, is not all over the place, then it must be some of the present rules, made by the decision makers, especially if you only get a free-kick if you are clean through and are fouled 2 inches outside the box, but you can get a penalty for a pass thats going out the box, but hits someones arm before it gets there?
92 Posted 09/07/2019 at 14:46:52
He tends to go with the rule-makers, and I pointed out to him that I think it's because he watches a lot more football on TV.
He's got a season ticket, but probably only uses it for about ten games per season , and he took it the wrong way (for a minute) when I suggested he was often swayed by the telly.
How can you be swayed by the telly, especially when they can give loads of different angles and opinions. He told me that when Man Utd got that pen in Paris, he did think for a minute that, “It's hit his arm” and that was enough for me!
93 Posted 09/07/2019 at 14:59:45
I've argued long before the introduction of VAR, which I think should have limited scope the rules as there are do not reflect the modern game nor are written with technology in mind.
The element that concerns me the most is in reducing multi-faceted decisions into binary elements the rules do not even give you a flow to base the decision on.
Handball is a great one, you touched on it in the comment. Why on earth do you get a penalty kick for a shot or pass/cross which is clearly not on target or going straight out of play? The first notion would be to check, like pitching outside leg in cricket, as soon as that is established then ignore the claim. You wouldn't give a penalty if it struck a defenders arm and went out, would you? You give a goal. So the same should be true when the action doesn't affect the play.
Rules really should only be enforced when there is a significant opportunity removed that affects play. Too many times a technical breach is penalized to the collective sigh of all involved.
However to flip this, both the fans and the players have accepted and grown a culture which has outmoded the rules, cheating, time wasting and other elements of gamesmanship in the professional era have impacted the game whose rules simply are not fit to deal it.
Before technology creeps into the game full time the rules new a significant review and update.
94 Posted 09/07/2019 at 15:15:40
It will see me giving some games a miss next season.
95 Posted 09/07/2019 at 15:50:07
Regarding VAR disallowing goals because of an infringement early in the build-up, offside or foul, what would they make of a 'linesman' giving a throw to the wrong side, something we have all witnessed, which leads to a goal? My fear is that, when clubs cotton on to this injustice, VAR will be forced to make further inroads. This possible scenario will, [in my opinion] be another nail in the coffin of football as we knew it.
96 Posted 09/07/2019 at 15:53:56
Sorry, I just don't understand this logic.
97 Posted 09/07/2019 at 15:55:54
Footballs that would take your head off when wet or leave you mildly concussed.
Tackles that would start at the knee. Taking man & ball
Defenders heading the opponents head, instead of the ball. Backpass to the keeper. keeper limited to 6 paces with ball in hand
No feigning of injury, it was a man's game, you took the knock.
A season ticket for under £30 (1981)
A lot of these changes have been cosmetic and many haven't. It hasn't hurt the game. In fact what has saved the game is live footy. Actually not a fact just an opinion. Attendances were in decline pre EPL and there may have been the odd periods of solid attendance but they were not the norm.
The game is now so much bigger than it was, be that good or bad is up to each individual.
Sad fact is the referees get things wrong each game and are constantly being slammed by managers for their collective ineptitude. Whilst I would never advocate a VAR takeover, I do believe that if used correctly it will help a level playing field.
98 Posted 09/07/2019 at 15:58:33
99 Posted 09/07/2019 at 16:09:58
I can imagine myself getting pissed off during the season.
100 Posted 09/07/2019 at 16:51:39
101 Posted 10/07/2019 at 01:19:43
John # 94. Your comment that VAR will make you give some games a miss next season reminds me of the old insurance, in house, joke.
A farmer insures his herd of cattle against being struck by lightening (more common than you may think). When the insurance guy calls around for the renewal premium the farmer says he reckons he's overpaying by insuring the entire herd and, as he only loses one cow each year, he'll just insure against losing the one. Sure, says the salesman, which one?
103 Posted 10/07/2019 at 06:41:09
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