Premier League — Week 12

Watford up 0-2 over Norwich right now, so that's nice.

Delboy scored the first goal forWatford and looked good in the first half, even if he needed a break every so often. In the second half he looked knackered after a few minutes and was replaced around the hour mark.

I don't think he's someone we'll ever really miss, Dave, despite the moments of magic.

He seems a really good young man and I wish him all the best. However I'll be surprised if he gets anywhere close to the lofty expectations that we once had for him.

Oh and his dive for the penalty for the other week was a complete joke. I can't believe VAR looked at that and stuck with the decision. It still fries my brain that Niasse was the only player banned for successfully conning the ref...when his ‘dive' was far less clear cut.

Is that retrospective review process still in place or did they scrap it after sanctioning one player only?

Third time watching Sheffield United. For just arriving back into the league, they're really a nice team to watch.

The manager and coaching staff seem to have good ideas. And the team really goes hard for 90 minutes without fear.

Leicester deserve this lead. I'm changing my mind on them, this looks more and more like a sustained top4 challenge than a period of form. It'll be interesting to see if they stand firm come the vultures circling to steal their prized assets in January. Also, Man Utd or Arsenal might come in for Rogers in the summer.

2-0. Goodnight. Thank you very much. Arsenal are done. Wish that was our blues playing like this.

Think Leicester are the real deal. They've done what we should have done the last 4 years. Brought in talented, young players suited to the league and mixed them in with their own quality youth players and a smattering of seasoned pros.

I really do hope we give Leicester a good beating in the Carabao cup, they remind me of a miniature Dachshund they think they are bigger than they really are !

Leicester play the game at a scintillating pace, are they all on Red Bull or what?

Vardy just never seems to slow down does he? 33 or whatever and still faster than many 20 year olds.

Colin #8. The issue is they probably don't, compared to us these days.

History wind us nowt sadly

"wins" even!

Colin, I agree that they think they aren't as big as they think they are. Their fans keep going on about bringing the glory days back, do they mean 5 years ago? Because there is nothing else in their history!

Jim, I thought Vardy would be done by now. His diet was poor, he was often out drinking, and doing all the things modern footballers avoid. His game is built on speed. So, you'd expect him to be in decline by now. That's not the case. I do think he plays a bit more conservatively now, less charging around for no reason, and he seems to save his energy for when he can use it. He is much smarter these days, and so he is still at his best. Fair play to the lad and kudos to Leicester for how they've handled him.

I'm beginning to revise my opinion if Rodgers as a manger. The season he nearly won the league with the other crowd, I always felt a lot of things fell into place for him.
He done the treble a couple of times with Celtic. You could say so he should or you could say he still had to make sure Celtic stayed switched on to win all their cup games.
But the job he's done at Leicester has been very impressive up to now.

Crazy that we've been so poor and are only 3 points off 5th. Shows how many inconsistent teams there are in the league this year and no reason at all why we still can't make Europe. I know we have a 'harder' run coming up but we've played some of our best stuff under Silva against 'harder' teams. Looks like this season is still alive after all.

Mike, I think that Rogers has had an up and down career. He did well enough at Watford, after a poor start. He jumped ship quickly to Reading (after 1 season) then got sacked 6 months later. He got the Swansea job. Swansea had been taken to the Championship by Martinez who then left for Wigan. Rogers came in and got them up via the play-offs, continuing the Martinez brand of football. In many ways he inherited a club perfect for him. He defied the odds keeping Swansea up (easily in 11th) and did not sacrifice his brand of football. Then he showed his tendency to jump ship at the first sign of a better club, going to Liverpool.

He had a poor first season at Anfield and finished below us. The next season he did a great job as Liverpool looked set to win the league until the "best player the world has ever seen" fell on his arse. The next season he went out the Champions League in the group stage, and finished in 6th for his final full season. The next year he was sacked after failing to beat us, with Liverpool languishing in 10th.

At Celtic, he had the best side and so did the treble treble. I know he had left before they wrapped the season up but he didn't need to be there to get credit for those three trophies. What let him down at Celtic was in Europe. First season bottom of the group. Second season 3rd in the group, just on goal difference against Anderlecht, smashed by PSG and Munich. Last season he couldn't qualify for the CL and Second in the EL group, struggling against Austrians, and getting easily beaten in the 1st round knockout by Marcelino's Valencia.

I'd say his managerial career has been up and down. He's had purple patches and slumps. At Celtic I judge him on Europe and so didn't see enough from him. I also think he is not a loyal guy, and he will leave Leicester if Man Utd come calling, which no other ex-RS manager would do.

But fair play to him, he's proving that he is a very good manager, he's in one of those purple patches and Leicester a fantastic team to watch.

Steve, if I'm honest I've never took any notice of his career before he got the job over the park. On reflection, as you say, he's been an up and down manager.
I enjoy watching this Leicester team, they play with pace and no little skill, the sort of game I'd like to see us play.

Leicester are OK, but are not a model for how we want to play or where we want to be. They're going through a good patch, that's all. They've had a lot of hype from the media, because they had novelty value getting lucky in winning the league when the big boys were in poor form.

Evertonians need to focus on us, and forget about ephemeral midtable sides who rank as mediocre in the big scheme of things. We need to get a grip on reality, and stop grasping at 'here today, gone tomorrow' models.

I'm a big fan of VAR.

However, it's current implementation is so wildly inconsistent, and lends itself to a bent and crooked league.

It needs to be strictly defined, and used only to overturn the most egregious errors.

City just were denied a penalty. There's no framework to adjudicate these things. They might as well flip a coin.

Salah? Surely offside?

Just watching the other crowd here (I normally don't). It's still early but I've been surprised at how ready they are to go long. Are they always like this or is it something they're using against Man City as a one-off tactic?

No replay at all of Salah goal. So looks like sky aka Liverpool TV are trying to hide something.

Who is on VAR duties for this - Kenny Dalglish and Stevie G La?

LiVARpool 2 City 0.

Handball should have been penalty for City and Liverpool go straight down the other end and score.

Second goal looks very close to offside and there are NO replays.

Highly suspicious.

Mike @20.

It's not a one off. They go long a lot, but nobody ever mentions it.

Penalty claim for City, not reviewed by VAR, allowed Liverpool to breakaway to score... and how VAR never gave Salah offside is just making a mockery of the system.

It has to be said a lot of their long balls are played with attacking intent, often into space. They are deadly on the counter. City need a goal before half-time.

What... Liverpool benefit from dodgy decisions?

Surely not!

Bill even it worse it was reviewed, and no handball given. Which is just a mystery. The goalposts keep moving with VAR. It has to be strictly defined. It's awful in its current use and form.

We just have to accept it, the powers that be want the redshite to win the league. It'll make for a great story for them and the chance to make a multitude of money making programmes. As for VAR, that needs to be populated by people who do NOT officiate games IMO.

On another point. Is there any other ground in the premier league where the supporters constantly boo and whistle the opposition whenever they have posession?

That second goal was very close to being offside, purely because Salah's knee appeared to be the furthest forward. If that Sheff Utd goal yesterday was offside, then surely the RS second goal should have been disallowed? As Gary says no replay of it shown (yet).

The penalty shout was a stonewall penalty. Whether Alexander - Arnold meant it or not, his arm was outstretched and clearly hit it.

Thanks Gary. I'm meeting a mate at half time who's a red (I know!). I'll ask him. He's alright, if they do he'll tell me.

CIty never seem to learn when they visit Anfield, is it an unhealthy arrogance they have In thinking they can play their own game at Anfield?

Regardless they are fluffing their lines as usual and the title is gone for them after today, whilst great on the eye they are too easy to beat.

Over to Leicester and Chelsea

VAR is now designed so that the Premier League can orchestrate and shape results how they please.

I said against spurs that the VAR decisions would have gone for us if were wearing red and playing at Anfield.

Sky and the media want a Liverpool league win, just look at the pundits and the key premier league and sky bosses Liverpool have carefully and craftily infiltrated key positions everywhere they are a cancer.

Stan, appreciate the point you are making but I wouldn't mind Everton going through a similar good patch to Leicester. 2nd in the League, possible semi-final place in the League Cup (hopefully not!) and playing decent football.

Also, I think, for the non-penalty, the ball gets played on to the Liverpool player off the arm of the City player, so I suppose it evens itself out.

Aguero should have played to the whistle through, once you start losing focus and playing the referees and VAR then you've lost the battle.

And Fabinho, why no yellow?

I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but to me it's pretty clear the bigger clubs get the reviews and the FA decisions going their way. If Son had fouled a rs, the red card would have stood. Firmly believe that.

I'll tune back in later. Going to stop watching for a bit. RS clearly the better team. It's depressing.

They have openly come out and admitted a biased favouritism to certain clubs.

Retired referees have spoken about the event nature of certain officials decisions so it's not something new it is just magnified more because VAR has arrived.

We had a player given offside yesterday because his toes were offside. Salah had more than his toes offside.

Jamie nor me, always felt it too easy, but the Premier League have a product to sell to a global TV audience and unfortunately Liverpool are their cash cow along with Man Utd.

If City had their shooting boots on, they could have scored three by now. Had some really good chances and not put 'em away.

Probably for the first ever time in my years watching Everton I'll not watch nor listen to any minute of the Anfield derby this season.

It's a complete mismatch for several reasons.

1) These fucks never lose a home game and it certainly won't be to us.

2) There's no way our players have the mentality to last 90-99 minutes in that circus pressure cooker.

3) VAR won't allow us to get a result.

Martin Tyler just quoting VAR saying that for the penalty his hand ‘wasn't in an unnatural position.' Jesus, so what about Dele Alli's hand over his head last week???

It would be funny if it wasn't so depressing. It's sickening the way they all fawn and crawl to Liverpool.

He could have grabbed the ball and autographed it and a penalty still wouldn't be given.
🤣🤣🤣

How the Fuck is that arm "NOT" in an unnatural position? It's so far out he could have been signalling a wide in cricket.

More gutless refereeing, I'm praying City stick it up the RS, in the second half.

If this is football's future, then for me it won't last. Why won't referees make decisions any more and use the pitch side monitor?

This week has reeked of shithouse refs, with no bottle. And as we know at our old ground Old Nick spawns, the place is a curse for visiting sides.

Just watching the incident at half time. Does it hit the Man City on the hand about a second earlier? Hope not because I'm arguing the red bar stewards in here and I might look a little silly if that's the case!!!

Brian (45) - At least a bit of humor. Made me laugh. Thanks

VAR or no VAR, pens are rarely given against that lot at Anfield, esp the Kop end. I think we've have 2 in about 90 years.

Watching Man C - no team defending like that can win the league.

Mike@48.
Make an excuse and leave, it DID hit the City players hand.

I'll put up with it thanks Brian. This black stuff is going down quite well. Probably need a lot of it to sleep tonight ☹️

Is Mike Dean allowed to be the fourth official here, bearing in mind he's from the Wirral? Pretty irrelevant you may think, as he's only fourth official and can have no influence on the game. Imagine though, if Michael Oliver got injured, Dean would have to go on, and because of where he's from, he's not allowed to referee either Everton or RS games.

I thought it hit Silva's hand first Brian, but I remember seeing this ref give City a penalty once, a non foul from Jagielka from 40 yards away, and he was looking straight at that ball which was going back post to give City a clear chance today.

Fuck's sake I'm going out to sit in the garden and it's fuckin' freezing!

City keeper, what a joke. Stephen Hawking would have made a better effort with Mane's header

City been piss weak again, times like this when you wonder how they've managed two successive league titles.

Yes they play dazzling football at times but they just look so easy to rattle.

Already that's three league defeats for them and that's basically them all but gone in this title race now unless they go on a 20 match winning run and somehow the Shite have a cataclysmic collapse

It did ricochet onto Silva's hand, but his hand wasn't in an unnatural position, so not hand ball unless a goal was scored. Terrence Trent Derby meanwhile had his arm outstretched. Definitely hand ball and even the pundits on Sky said at half time that it was a penalty. . . easy to say when it wasn't given I suppose.

No way back for City now. Everything has gone the Shite's way

So is unnatural position for handball rule just in case a zombie accidentally touches the ball while climbing up from under the pitch?

City could blame VAR of this didn't happen virtually every time they visit Anfield.

I've lost count the amount of times in the last few years when they've been 3-0 down with half an hour left.

I was going to call our kid tonight but I won't bother. He's a Red.

Ray (59) your second sentence applies to every game they play. They just don't get any bad breaks.

Turn your phone off until after Christmas Ray.

Certainly dread the derby this year, for the first time I've got to be brutally honest and say I'd celebrate a draw there this season like winning the lottery on the same day we won the FA Cup.

True Kev.

Rob (53) pretty sure Mike Dean was ref in the derby a few years ago.

None of Man City's players ever show up at Anfield.

Aguero unbelievably has never scored there in his time at City while Sterling goes there in great form and plays like a poor man's Aaron Lennon.

There's another three and a half weeks to go before we go to Anfield and I just hope Mr Impending Danger, is wrong again after predicting that Southampton would be rubbing their hands waiting for Everton.

No penalty for the push by Mane on Sterling, VAR said no. Fancy that. I don't think I can watch any more I'm turning over to watch Midsomer Murders. Wish Klopp lived there.

"Mr Impending Danger"

Both funny and unerringly accurate

Mike Dean claims to be a Tranmere fan.

Aguero wouldn't get in Rhyl's team.
I did.🤣

Kevin, another good shout for a city penalty turned down. As you say, there was a blatant push on Sterling, so why not given? I'm just waiting for the impending penalty down the other end when a city defender farts on Mane or Salah, and the explosion of wind blows one of them over.

How could VAR, genuinely give that pen though Kevin, when the ref had just booked a City player for disagreeing with his decision? Imagine that.

Ray. He is mate. Have seen him at several Rovers games, and at the playoff final.
His lads are both gobshites though.

Tony, VAR is a flawed product. It's at the mercy of corrupt or incompetent individuals. Keep it for this season and then bin it.

Sorry, Tony, you're right of course. What was the City player thinking even approaching the ref at Anfield? Oh, City score! Just wait for that to chalked off during the week. And Rob @73, spot on too. My money is on Mane to go down under an over the top challenge from a blade of grass. The blade of grass will get a 3 game ban

Tranmere fans tend to favour red or blue. They should be barred from officiating on any Merseyside clubs games.

I really like Guardiola. I think the guy is the best at what he does. That said, does anyone think he'd succeed at a bottom club and without money? Particularly given his inability to sort out defences and now Kompany has gone how bad city look at the back.

He should come to Everton and prove himself!

Ray # 71.
He is but his family are Liverpool Season Ticket holders

And while I'm at it, Sterling plays it onto Arnold's hand but no penalty. Mane did it against Spurs in the Champions League final and. well we know the rest

Stephen, why am I not surprised?

Final score .

VAR 3 - 1 City.

Kevin@80 it was actually armpit ball in that match.

Please remember since the premier league started in 1992, Liverpool have had more penalities than any other team. Even more than the Fergie Title machine.

Liverpool are also vulnerable defensively. I thought City were poor today.

Can the shite fuck it up from 9 points clear in November? Most certainly. Will the media be awarding them the title now ? Most certainly.

Sorry, I'm writing off Leicester and Chelsea - 8 points clear. Can't see Leicester doing it but come on Fat Frank.

Guess it'll be up to us to do City a favour in early December. 🤯

And after all that we have dropped down to 15th with our 3 pts while Man Utd and Wolves moved up to 8th and 9th with theirs, shows how difficult it is to get out of the bottom 6.

I wonder if they will be bringing the open-top bus from the depot for cleaning now?

Ray@76, couldn't agree more mate, but why should we bin it and let these cheating bastards keep getting away with murder?

Why can't we hear what they are saying in the studios? Why?Why?why?why?why?

Let's run it through because I'm sure Mike Dean or Michael Oliver will give a penalty for that same offence in the next three months, of that I'd honestly bet my life.

Just like Lee Mason will wave away the same thing he pulled Michael Keane up for the other week, but I'm going to keep my ears open but my lips shut now, because football doesn't want this, they want everyone talking about another injustice, and this will be the case until the cheats and the incompetent, are made to explain how they've come about their decisions?

Andy Robertson said the most crucial thing was getting the first goal, so it shows that Liverpool got very lucky today.

Tony Hill, why is he fat Frank? I've always thought this? He ain't fat, and I'd have him managing us tomorrow in a heartbeat. People say Fat Sam, Fat Frank, but Everton have Bariatric Unsworth.

Don't know Joe. Alliteration probably.

What a poor, poor defence Man City had today. That was a real letdown. Only got going in an attacking sense late in the game.

I used to hate Liverpool with a passion but have a grudging respect now they've left us for dead. The simplicity of the successful Shankly template of hard graft and attacking pace still drives them yet despite their proximity we still haven't grasped the lesson.

Add in the refusal to indulge sentimentality about under-performing players and they are the complete antithesis of this dowdy "grand old team".

As for Man City, despite their loot, they're as much a gang of chokers as us in big games.

Tony, Bin it at the end of the season is my considered opinion. At the moment we have been on the receiving end of more corrupt decisions than anyone. Hopefully the bad/corrupt decisions will affect others rather than us until the seasons end. It is such a poor product that, until it's sorted, it should not be used. I have said on here in the past that VAR officials should have 10-15 seconds to view each contentious decision. If it's not “clear and obvious “ by then, then carry on with the match. And every ref should be obliged to explain his decision after the game. We might have more understanding then.

Fair enough, Ray, I agree it's awful, but the cynic in me wants to go further now that the can of worms has been opened.

At the moment, we have got either incompetence or corruption at the top of our game, and either one of these things is a major concern.

If it's corruption, then let's make them explain their decisions, especially if they've had time to review it in the studio; and if it's incompetence, then let's strike them off and go and get better referees from everywhere else. Give us the officials that we deserve, although in fairness to the refs, officiating would become a lot easier if we could start to weed out the cheating first.

Exactly Tony.

Tony (95), why do the VAR officials have to be refs anyway? We're not looking for any insight they might have -- we should just be using VAR for the 'clear and obvious'.

Steve #97.

Said that earlier in the thread. Shouldn't be anybody who officiates in games IMO.

Trained technicians who know the rules but who don't play any part in the game.

Before VAR The Shite got all the decisions and we got none. With VAR the Shite get all the decisions and we get none. Post VAR... you guessed it, just the same.

Different system, same shit every time.

Concerning and knowing our luck in 3,5 weeks, fate will no doubt deliver us some bad cards and VAR, will no doubt stir it up.

Liverpool will be getting parties booked, but can we stop them, and nick a win or draw?

Odds are stacked against us, but this Liverpool team is far from perfect and their defence got very, very lucky today. Surely their luck will run out soon, as it is becoming a nonsense, their level of luck and rediculous decisions.

So whilst we have our own BAFTA winner in Richarlison, they have a regular 11 Oscar nominees for every con trick, and diving trick in the book.

Surely the FA must now take a stance on very piss-poor referees, and VAR?

Yep I'm being very optimistic, but it's not the ale; in our predicament, we need every ounce of luck we can get.

Paul @101, I can't help thinking the next Bramley-Moore Dock update will be a couple of days after the derby. Somehow (yet again) to give us something to cling on to.

Joe, I agree, it's a Nap.

It's very, very, testing times for Evertonians.

Steve and Brian@97/98, having refs in the VAR studio just stinks of what has been wrong with the game forever, especially because these fellas just close rank and still don't have to open their lips.

The man in the studio should be blind and deaf, but that shouldn't stop him making major decisions, as long as the controversy remains, and the cheats keep getting away with murder.

I couldn't blame Liverpool for cheating today though, I just felt that City were done by an intimidated ref, a very fast counter-attack, and a Birkenheader with his one good eye on Liverpool, and Aguero also not playing to the whistle didn't help matters either.

Football is fucked, in the absence of a successful utd side the powers that be will make sure the second biggest brand will succeed. Step forward
Lucifer Football Club =LFC

People really need to stop worrying what the RS are doing. If they win the league, who cares. Let's concentrate on ourselves

If VAR did look at AA's handball, how come the play was allowed to continue, let alone Liverpool being allowed to score up the other end? Surely the ref could have blown his whistle to check the outcome. It was as clear a handball under the new guidelines as you would need. His arm was away from his body. As Tony said the 4th official was Mike Dean, supposedly a Tranmere fan. It is utterly ridiculous that he is anywhere near a Merseyside team. I am from the Wirral and have watched them on a Friday night on many occasions. My mate and I were Liverpool and Everton fans first and foremost as are many on the other side of the water.
Virtually all Tranmere fans (except the hardcore) have some affiliation to red or blue and we all know Mike Dean's mum used to clean King Kenny's house.
The Salah goal shows he is close to being offside, but surprise, surprise he doesn't get done by an armpit like some,. no probs, it's a goal!
Little things, fine margins decide games but if the refs and the incompetants in the VAR suite are subconsciously biased, then subjectivity is interferring. If it was tennis or cricket a compuer model works out the decision. In rugby and football it's still down to people. Totally unsatisfactory.

I reckon I wasn't the only Blue that cheered that Blades equaliser down at Spurs,they should've won it but VAR strikes again...just like at Mordor.

Sigh,at least I got more of the "real" footy to enjoy on Friday night!.

Paul @106: In a sense you are right. However, given the appalling officiating against us, which happened repeatedly last season too, and the equally appalling officiating in favour of Liverpool, even if we focus wholly on Everton we cannot do it in isolation of what appears to be happening.

As Tony @95 says, the bias is either unconscious or conscious. If the former, the incompetence is staggering, whilst if the latter the associated corruption is equally staggering. Either way, it is of major concern, and a massively important issue for what is supposed to be a great game. It is making a mockery of football.

The VAR decision given against McGoldrick against Spurs was another disgrace.
How they even measured that was impossible. Clear and obvious, what a joke

Oh yes I see Moutinho for Wolves did a Son tackle. Result, yellow card.

I read on the sky sports website after the Keane incident. A former ref (Clatterberg I think) reviews the VAR decisions every week.

For the Keane decision, he said correct decision - penalty.

A week later, the PMGOL say it was a mistake.

We need impartial people in the VAR studio, all refs seem to be swayed the same way, a way that's not good for the game.

Didn't mean to submit that quick...

As for the City penalty, what should have happened (as it does in rugby league) is that play should have been brought back for Alexander Arnold's handball, however it should then have been brought back for the first infringement which was the handball from the City player which would have led to a clear goal scoring opportunity. The result - free kick to Liverpool.

In Rugby league, if Wigan knock the ball on, then St Helens do but then score a try, it is pulled back to the first infringement - the Wigan knock on.

Tom Davies captained England u21s to victory. Lewis Dobbin scored for England u17 as they lost to Denmark. Tyler Onyango was an unused sub. Doesn't look like Reece Welch (CB) made the squad this time.

Can we scrap international football or at least prevent it from interfering with the premier league season?

Steve #114 I have already emailed the English FA and UEFA to scrap these useless qualifiers ! Not expecting a reply any time soon though 😂

Dunno where else to put this. But, has anyone seen the excellent Duncan Ferugson interviews on ToffeeTV on YouTube? Link

Duncan is very bullish, and dispels lots of myths on there. Such as the much repeated notion that he didn't like football. I think he came across very well, and it's a pity he did not talk more to Everton-related media during his playing days.

On the subject of his current role, it's absolute rubbish that he "just puts the cones out". So, apologies Duncan. You are quite right about people repeating what their mate's, mate's, mate said. It's just a pity that you haven't come out and told us this before.

I was in the generation that idolised Duncan. I felt let down by him. I felt that he never seemed to give 100% to his career. Now, maybe he is right that he did not do most of the stuff he was accused of, but I did see him one time in town enjoying what appeared to be an alcoholic beverage and looking a little worse for wear whilst he was "injured", so when you hear more stories like this, it makes you believe them.

So, I'm not going to say that the interviews have restored my tarnished view of Duncan, but it does make me think that I jumped to too many conclusions and assumptions. but what else can you do when the fella meets rumour with silence, and never even speaks to his own club's media? Anyway, good stuff ToffeeTV, and thanks Duncan for finally setting the record straight.