ToffeeWeb has always been staunchly apolitical in terms of its editorial and we usually discourage discussion about politics within the news and article threads which is why a number of comments related to yesterday's General Election were removed from the Bramley-Moore Dock thread.

We realise that there is an appetite among some members to talk about these issues so we're putting them in this sideshow thread on the General Forum, at least as long as things remain civil!

Note: Because the posts were removed, the references to post numbers will be inaccurate.

Reader Comments (70)

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Derek Knox
1 Posted 13/12/2019 at 14:47:55
Oh the Election result, just read the following posts, it was a decision that I expected because of two factors, Brexit and Corbyn being extremely unpopular!

It's a sad state of State Affairs, when someone is less popular than the Buffoon that is Boris Johnson! Basically the Labour Party knew they were backing a three legged race-horse against a donkey but failed to elect a more suitable leader, and get their manifesto in order.

Jay Wood

2 Posted 13/12/2019 at 14:52:00
Go on, Derek!

As a natural born Scotsman you can do the full 'Dad's Army Private Fraser' for us.

"Dooomed, aye tells ye! We're awl gonna die!"

Announcing this on Friday 13th can only end one way! Mark my words!

Des Farren
3 Posted 13/12/2019 at 15:02:03
At last..."A Peoples Government"!

Sorry lads just felt like throwing a grenade in.

Stan Schofield
4 Posted 13/12/2019 at 15:03:25
Derek@8: It's ironic that in Scotland, which seems to me to have fairly 'socialist type' approaches to many things, and which was at one time a Labour stronghold, there is now only one Labour MP.

Surely a damning indictment of Labour, who look about as well organised as Everton

John Keating
5 Posted 13/12/2019 at 15:13:13
Just a delicate warning to all TWebbers
Sometimes the social media consensus does not reflect the general consencous
Craig Walker
6 Posted 13/12/2019 at 15:16:41
I hate two things in this world: the RS and the Tories.

In 2020 we can look forward to a right-wing Tory government with a thumping majority, the RS being champions of Europe and winners of the Premier League. We can probably look forward to Moyes returning.

I might hide in a fridge until it all blows over.

Roger Helm
7 Posted 13/12/2019 at 15:22:58
Derek - the Buffoon you are referring to is the one who won two mayoral elections in a Left-leaning city, won the Tory leadership and now has won (unprecedentedly as a sitting PM) a landslide election victory?

If that is your idea of a buffoon, we could do with a few in charge of our club!

John Pierce
8 Posted 13/12/2019 at 15:40:58
Fook feels like 1983 all over again.
Rick Tarleton
10 Posted 13/12/2019 at 15:56:52
The Tory majority where I live is over 30,000. I want to weep.
Alex Lee
11 Posted 13/12/2019 at 16:21:38
Craig @ 14
"Two things I hate - RS and Tories"
I agree with you about the RS !!!
But fuck me - you"d rather have That twat Corbyn in charge ?
The man is a COMPLETE PRICK and so is that other twat Mcdonell
Kunal Desai
12 Posted 13/12/2019 at 16:22:48
The only focus on this election was getting Brexit done, remains to be seen whether that gets delivered or how long it takes. People have been brainwashed into believing immigration is the real issue in the UK. The fact that Corbyn and his party were so far behind the torys says enough about the man himself.
John Kavanagh
13 Posted 13/12/2019 at 16:40:53
Ah well, I can now look forward to a gushing Kenwright welcoming PM Boris the Honest along with his latest strumpet to the grand opening in 2030 or whatever surrounded by adoring S*n journos.

Shame that by then most of us won't be able to afford to attend or will have been called up to deal with the Troubles in Ireland or patrolling the Scottish border.

It really is a spectacular feat to find worse leadership than us but by Christ Labour managed it in spades.

Tony Abrahams
14 Posted 13/12/2019 at 16:52:49
Amazing how two people who would never be at the top table, or even the middle table, when it came to common-sense, are now both leading their countries, which means very worrying times ahead.

A buffoon indeed, but a very clever player, so let's just hope his trade deal with Donald, brings back the good times for Liverpool, which is obviously the first Port-of-call, once the ships start sailing past Bramley-Moore, along the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey!

Get Donald, Boris & Bill, to open our new stadium, and then put the three amigos on a slow boat to North Korea.

Jay Harris
15 Posted 13/12/2019 at 17:01:04
The closest thing to Michael Foot Labour has ever had as a leader (pardon my use of the word) and they are surprised they lost to Bozo Boris.

I am amazed there do not appear to be any decent politicians left in the civilsed world but thereagin when it cost hundreds of millions for a campaign I guess that opens the door for corruption.

Oh for a modern day Bessie Braddock.

Oh and good news on the planning application but still a long way to go.

Manager situation has gone quiet!!

Jerome Shields
16 Posted 13/12/2019 at 17:12:20
I am not surprised at the election result in London and the North Conurbations where people seem to think that nothing happens anywhere else in England I have come across widespread support for Brexit which I found defied any logical, when I asked anyone the reason for their opinion.

I am hoping that this planning news is PR to keep us all happy as they are having trouble getting a Manager, which may give us more time to see what Big Dunc has in his locker. Bexit.

Mike Gaynes
17 Posted 13/12/2019 at 18:45:25
Jamie #20, that was a wondrous rant from the far side of the planet, courtesy of Fox News and Mother Russia.

Witch hunt? This clown literally takes dictation from Vladimir Putin (publicly kissing his ass in gratitude), and what we've learned about his actively trying to poison the 2020 election would never have come out if it hadn't been for the impeachment process.

And as for getting things done, the fact is the Democratic House has passed and sent to the Republican Senate over 400 bills. Laws and policies, just like you said. The Senate has acted on exactly zero of them. Never debated them, let alone brought them up for a vote. None. McConnell's sole priority has been stacking the federal court system with their judges, qualified or not. The ones doing nothing for the American people are the reds, not the blues. But you'll never hear a word of that from the Trumpies.

As for Bleach Boy winning in a landslide... stock up on ketchup, mate, because you're gonna have to dine on those words. The American people ultimately have no use for those who don't put America first -- and who line their personal pockets with millions of our tax dollars.

Stan Schofield
18 Posted 13/12/2019 at 19:03:08
Mike @44: I was in Houston during the week that the potential impeachment news coverage started. I was staying with Democrats, and they had NBC on, a programme fronted by Rachel Maddon. I was a bit gobsmacked at the sheer quality of this coverage, since it went into great detail on legal and constitutional matters, and I thought Rachel Maddon was excellent. I mentioned this to my friends, and said I thought the quality put the BBC to shame. Anyway, they said they'd show me the other end of the quality spectrum, and they promptly changed the channel to Fox News. I was equally gobsmacked, but for different reasons. What a bag of incoherent shite it was. How they get away with crap like that, I don't know.
Tony Abrahams
19 Posted 13/12/2019 at 19:11:15
Paul T, good news for Scotland, if they get that second referendum, but bad news for England, because it will just become a conservative country forever. It probably already is because there is no way Tony Blair is a genuine Labour man, and if Scotland get another chance, it is definitely going to be the beginning of the end for the union?
Paul Tran
20 Posted 13/12/2019 at 19:13:11
England needs to vote better, Tony, and let us have another one.
Bill Gienapp
21 Posted 13/12/2019 at 19:27:16
Mike (44) - you eloquently made each and every point I would have (respectfully) offered Jamie in rebuttal. My only fear is, I still have no idea who the Democratic nominee should be. Who do you like?

Stan (48) - Fox News is basically state-sponsored propaganda. It's like something out of Orwell. They're actually pushing the idea that Trump should be eligible for a third term if impeachment fails.

Anyway, I'm sure the rest of our British friends love to hear a debate about American politics on an Everton site, so... Bramley-Moore Dock! Woo-hoo!

Andy Riley
22 Posted 13/12/2019 at 19:27:23
Jon #17. I hope so 1983 was the dark just before the light of a golden period for the Blues under our greatest ever manager!
Jay Woods
23 Posted 13/12/2019 at 19:47:34
Boys, as you know, I'm very conservative, or rather, "biblical traditionalist" Christian.

Boris, Trump... they're globalists, crypto-one-world-government puppets. The left is the same, so no matter who gets in, the agenda is the same: globalism and centralisation of power. I believe they want a world war to traumatise the survivors into some dystopian locked down nightmare... As you may know, I'm in Latvia, where there is endless propaganda from Russia about NATO and vice versa... Only yesterday, I saw a headline in "Vesti" (a Moscow mouthpiece newspaper) proclaiming NATO to be "brainless" / "headless", which may be connected with the news that a huge US led exercise is planned for Europe in the spring, simulating a surge of American troops eastward from Germany to head off a surprise Russian invasion.

Then there are the regular scrambles of jets overhead, rushing to intercept Russian flights down the Baltic coast... Being in a frontline country, so to speak, makes it seem so much more real, you know, when all this talk of preparing for war with Russia comes up. The Russians, though, are on another level when it comes to talk of war; they pretty much accept it as a done deal and it's normal to see articles detailing projected casualty figures in a nuclear exchange. It's all enough to make me want to be a prepper... and to get out of Latvia ASAP.

Stan Schofield
24 Posted 13/12/2019 at 20:01:30
Jay: As you say, those in power wish to frighten the masses. I tend to think nuclear weapons have stopped direct wars between major nation states, because there's no escape no matter how much power you have. The physicists gave the politicians something the latter couldn't handle.

The first half of the 20th century appears to be the most violent in history in terms of per capita deaths in wars. In contrast, the second half of the 20th century and after appears to be the most peaceful. The media would have you think that things are getting worse. But I certainly fail to see that.

Alan J Thompson
25 Posted 14/12/2019 at 11:05:50
I'm just surprised that a lot in Britain think that there are a lot of countries just waiting to help when Brexit goes through. Those countries like Australia and New Zealand felt let down when Britain joined the EEC and felt that it was a rush to those against whom so many of their own were sacrificed and was being repeated in the trade area. My opinion is that prices in the UK will go through the roof when non-EU countries make the most of trading with isolated UK strewn with internal problems under another Old Etonian.

Still, London, as always, will look good. Ever been to Windsor?

Joe Bibb
26 Posted 14/12/2019 at 11:06:09
Corbyn was sold out by the Enemy Within, Labour MPs were telling voters to vote Tory, how they can still be party members never mind MP's is beyond me.
Steve Ferns
27 Posted 14/12/2019 at 11:22:25
People do realise that the five safest seats in the whole of the United Kingdom are the five seats in the city of Liverpool. As a result, can people remember that Everton fans are very likely to be supportive of Corbyn. The momentum faction of the Labour Party also has a lot of its roots in Liverpool. The unions are based here and led by len McClusky, who is a son of the city. The city of Liverpool is in pain right now as a result.

I fear for the poorest and most vulnerable members of our country as this government will not waste any opportunity to stick it to them as they have done for the last 9 years and working with these people on a daily basis, I have only seen things get worse and worse over the last 17 years and fear the worst is still to come.

Mike Hayes
28 Posted 14/12/2019 at 11:43:03
Has somebody tampered with these posts all I'm seeing is post 18 replying to 44 up to now it's on 25 - little bit of figure tampering 🤔
Brent Stephens
29 Posted 14/12/2019 at 11:43:44
Steve #26 - agree with your final para especially. The tories used the austerity argument to shrink the state (and therefore services to those who need them) not to address an "unsustainable national debt". The country wasn't broke in 2010. The debt level was only slightly above the "soft" EU (Maastricht Treaty); and that was a consequence not of Labour profligacy but the financial crisis originating in the US (Lehman Brothers collapse; subprime mortgages; Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac). In fact I think Gordon Brown, UK Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, received an award from France for the action he took to mitigate the impact of the crisis on the UK and Europe).

The debt level of just over 60% of GDP in 2010 was no great issue. In the previous 250 years the debt level had in 80% of that time been above 60% of GDP. The US and Japanese debt levels have been above 100% and 200% of GDP respectively. Our EU neighbours (Germany included) have been carrying debt levels in the 80% and well above. The tories have used the debt "crisis" to justify its austerity programme (shrinkage of the state) and "solved" the debt level by taking it to 85% of GDP - hence the switch a couple years ago from talking about debt to talking about deficit.

Still Brexit will strengthen the economy!!! I weep.

Brent Stephens
30 Posted 14/12/2019 at 11:44:59
Mike #27 - see the explanation in the note at the start.
Steve Ferns
31 Posted 14/12/2019 at 11:49:20
Brent, what a week I've had. So despondent by events in government and on the football pitch. Seems like everything is going wrong wherever I look.
Paul Tran
33 Posted 14/12/2019 at 13:55:10
Look up north, Steve. The Scottish Conservatives made this election a referendum on getting Brexit done and stopping Indy Ref 2.

Look at the results; that's what happens when you have a credible alternative that can attract voters beyond his/her base.

Jay Wood

34 Posted 14/12/2019 at 13:57:22

BIG thanks for the Daily Mash link on the other thread. You're right it wasn't on my radar. Another great site bookmarked!

The very 1st story was a cracker:

'New MP for Stoke-on-Trent realises she has to live there'

I fancy I'll be working my way through a few more before tomorrow's game.

Cheers again!

Stan Schofield
35 Posted 14/12/2019 at 14:03:18
Paul@32: Absolutely. We live in Aberdeenshire and tactically voted SNP to try to keep the Tories out. It didn't work in our constituency, but it was a very close call.

Labour lost its soul in the mid-90s. We used to be members of the Labour Party until then, and threw the towel in when they got rid of the 1918 Clause IV. There seemed to be a lot of bullshitters at Party meetings.

The SNP have a strong clear message which they've stuck to, and I think people want to see clear leadership.

Paul Tran
36 Posted 14/12/2019 at 15:58:00
Yes, Stan. Over here in Nairn we have a good local SNP MP who romped home again. We also like their clear message, pity it's only me in our house who can vote.
Tony Abrahams
37 Posted 14/12/2019 at 15:59:58
Surely it's a lot easier to achieve if the people didn't want to leave the EU, in the first place?
Paul Tran
38 Posted 14/12/2019 at 16:10:15
It's easier if you have a good leader who appeals beyond her base and delivers a clear, strong message. There are many SNP voters who don't support independence, but are centre/centre-left, pro-EU and anti-Tory.
John Pierce
39 Posted 14/12/2019 at 16:38:09
I still despair that both Labour and the Democrats on this side of the pond cannot produce a slick election machine to counter the base, fear-mongering offering the right throws out every time. It's not like they are unpredictable?!

Sentiment and good intentions cannot be fore filled and made good from the sidelines. Once and once only in my life time have Labour produced a professional, clinical winning election machine.

The parallels with Everton are sadly very real.

Paul Tran
40 Posted 14/12/2019 at 17:47:25
Not just a slick winning machine, John. To win elections, you have to engage with and appeal to people outside your supporter base. The current Labour party is both unable and disinterested in doing this.
Jerome Shields
41 Posted 14/12/2019 at 21:57:31
I talked to two American tourists, husband and wife, on a bus, who told me that everyone can talk as negative as they want about Trump, but people will vote to get him reelected. There are jobs and the majority are doing well.

On the bus back, I also spoke to a guy who had worked 30 years on building sites in Philadelphia, and nearly everyone he has worked with voted for Trump and will vote for him again.

It really does not matter what Trump or Johnson say or do, they will get votes which are not based on the normal issue analysis, but on the prejudicial hunches of those that casts their votes.

In the past 10 years, people have got that used to toughing it out against the system, by not accepting its limitations on them, that they vote for leaders who do the same. The problem is, eventually you have to know where the limit actually is. There will be limits and to push against them will end badly, when people are unprepared for actual reality.

Personally I am giving politics, politicians and political commentators a miss. They just waste time and it is better to mind one's own business first.

Jerome Shields
42 Posted 14/12/2019 at 22:24:50
Steve #31,

Go walk the dog or just walk yourself, preferably in a park with some scenery. There will be limits to the cock-ups that the Everton Board and the Government can make. Everton will have to change while they like it or not and so will the country.

Everton will stay on the Premier League and build a new stadium and the Government will have to come up with a fudge as the reality of trade agreement negotiations hit them. The whole gigantic thing will be a waste of time.

As for the Labour Party. Out of frustration and despair, both transient things, they will be reborn with new words and new power.

In reality, prophecy is an affliction of the articulate, as all ToffeeWebbers know deep down.

Everton are a big Club.

Merry Xmas.

Michael Kenrick
43 Posted 14/12/2019 at 22:49:37

New words and new power? I was out of the country and missed the furore over Clause IV referenced above, Part 4 of which originally said:

To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

The so-called "new words and new power" that emboldened New Labour in 1995 under Tony Blair were, in comparison, this meaningless waffle from the man himself:

The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.

I listened to Richard Burgon being 'interviewed'... what a total bellend he is, talking utter drivel. It's faintly hilarious that the hardcore labour party have this death wish at the polls. You still have plenty of them denying that Corbyn was the issue...

Just like the Democrats in the USA, they have to find a new and charismatic leader that has at least some popularity and appeal or they will not stand a chance.

Steavey Buckley
44 Posted 14/12/2019 at 23:14:26
Those traditional Labour voters who voted Tory so the UK can leave the EU will regret that decision as they become poorer under a right-wing Tory government.

Also, when the UK leaves the EU, it will be more difficult for Everton to pick up bargain-priced EU footballers who are not playing for their respective EU countries on a regular basis when the freedom of movement ends.

Paul Hewitt
45 Posted 14/12/2019 at 23:21:10
How the hell did that bofoon win? I just hope everyone that voted for him doesn't start moaning when he makes a total mess of the country. And sells off the NHS.
Paul Birmingham
46 Posted 14/12/2019 at 23:28:40
I'm hoping in EFC terms,that the storms ride, like the early 80s, some genuine rays of hope build and get stronger and deliver for Everton.

It's a stack of events, but let's keep belief and hope, that we can progress as a club.

Reality is I see that many of the lads of the 70s, and 80s, are as fit as fiddles, drink like fish, sell sand to the Arabs, in our jobs, but we can't wait for ever.

Don Alexander
47 Posted 14/12/2019 at 00:18:14
As smug and odious as BoJo's father is, he recently derided the educational achievements of a vast swathe of the electorate and, in my opinion, he was bang on the money.

That said, it isn't the fault of the electorate. It's the fault of decades-long under investment in education and massive interference by both Con and Lab governments into teaching in schools itself.

Many Brexit supporters saw the EU as the enemy, courtesy of the written media in particular - BoJo having for well over ten years baselessly criticised it, as that bastard Murdoch did in the Scum - rather than the Tory austerity chicanery or the Tory-lite Blair politics we've endured since 1997.

I strongly suspect that unless BoJo metamorphosizes into Jesus H Christ himself we, the British public, will soon be very much regretting casting off the so-called chains of the EU, as they're replaced by the floggings we'll take from other countries that realise how needy we've become to trade with them.

Derek Thomas
48 Posted 15/12/2019 at 01:08:10
Momentum and Corbyn, like those old fashion generals of both world wars, they didn't arm themselves...with fight coming war they armed themselves (with old fashion policies) to fighting the Old Class war...poverty and inequallity are states of being not 'a class' and another debate.

The class war that was dying on its feet 50 - 60 yrs ago. You can tell it was dying, because popular culture was already taking the piss out of it even then. I'm All Right Jack, The Rag Trade...a female jewish shop steward, a local boy Supervisor and a Tory owner. Working class tory Alf Garnett, The 4 Yorkshireman Sketch, Cleese, Barker, Corbett's 'I look down on him' sketch.

There are no old school 'the workers flag is deepest red' workers in the wild now - The jobs that held them in the thrall of low pay and poor conditions are all mostly gone now...and the need for a Labour Party to fight for them.

There are more 'deepest red' wannabies in the theoretical captivity of student politics and academia...yes, technically they're lions, but if their paymasters and zookeepers didn't feed them they'd all starve.

Even back in the early 60s, Wilson (good arl 'aitch) only toppled 13 years of tory rule by 4(?) Seats.

The only time Labour were ever 'really popular' was with Blair's New Labour aka, tory light.

When Labour voters in steel and mining towns tell you to fuck off you're doomed. When voters in Garston and Halewood are telling you to do one you're doomed.

'For the many not the few' was sound, it worked on doorsteps...until those people saw all the other shite they wanted to tack on the end of it.

Corbyn and his cohorts old style neo marxism is the stuff of dinosaurs - news flash - Asteroid Boris and Workington Man just exploded over their heads and the resultant Political Nuclear Winter will, hopefully, see them off to extinction of history, to join the Dark Satanic Mills full downtrodden workers that they're fighting for.

Moshiri and Kenwright take note; keep on not listening to US and eventually we may slowly desert you too.

Ciarán McGlone
49 Posted 15/12/2019 at 01:13:34
You don't need charisma to sell socialism, you need a receptive audience. The UK electorate doesn't tolerate it and neither does the Labour Party.

Removing Clause IV was a means to a end... centrist populist public school politics. A plague on all their houses.

Si Cooper
50 Posted 15/12/2019 at 03:20:05
Sadly, the outcome became easy to guess as the electioneering descended into promoting it as a presidential race. Corbyn may not be everybody's cup of tea but he was far more likely to be moderated by the centrists in his party than Boris ever was (even without his ‘stonking mandate').

Sadly I had to recently listen to a mate openly call the likely carve-up of parts of the NHS 'fake news' whilst apparently wholly believing ‘Comrade' Corbyn would simply sell us all out to some nebulous enemy state if allowed any sort of authority.

Boris won't get his deal done according to his timetable so look forward to no deal suddenly becoming the prime option before spring is gone.

At least the money markets will be buoyant as the financiers and brokers look forward to their markets becoming less regulated.

Stephen Brown
51 Posted 15/12/2019 at 08:20:25
Labour could have had the charismatic leader needed to challenge in the election and an Evertonian to boot !!! - Andy Burnham but chose a 1970s student protestor instead!

Need a win v Man Utd to lift the gloom!

Paul Smith
52 Posted 15/12/2019 at 08:36:09
So, the Brexit decision in 2016 was seismic and unprecedented and a bold (most people I know would say stupid) decision, never the less a step change in our relationship with the EU and the rest of the world. Now the British prople are naturally cautious hence their proclivity to vote Conservative almost habitually, but when they make a decision they expect it to be acted on, so to then take another leap into the unknown and embrace a left wing Socialist agenda was always a step too far this time. It could/should happen in the near future and Labour should not throw the baby out with bath water by binning Corbyn-O-Comics in totality (some of it made sense) instead they should refine/retune their offer, choose a new leader, keep their message simple and clear, and take it back to their heartlands. Btw I voted Tory, it was Brexit that done it. I'm grassing myself up on TW.
Dave Abrahams
53 Posted 15/12/2019 at 09:10:31
Si (50), people who think the NHS is safe under the Tory's are living in the promised land, anyone who has had reason to visit the A and E section of a hospital or a walk in centre would see how desperate it is, absolutely no fault of the wonderful staff who are run off their feet, but due entirely to the constant under funding of the NHS, sad to say it will only get worse in the future, especially under the party for the rich.

To everyone out there, don't get old and don't get sick.

By the the way, when the new hospital opens in place of the present one in Prescott Street a good % will be for private patients.

Peter Barry
54 Posted 15/12/2019 at 09:32:22
The North West of England is one of the last bastions of Socialism left and you are all on the wrong side of history. Socialism has never worked no matter where it has been tried and under no matter what name it has masqueraded be it Communism, Fascism Nazism or just plain old Socialism.
Tony Abrahams
55 Posted 15/12/2019 at 09:35:19
Brexit was a vote won on immigration, with the lyrics to John Lennon's imagine, not being as good as they sounded to a lot of people in England!
Stan Schofield
56 Posted 15/12/2019 at 10:43:21
I always consider that real political principles begin with action, by setting examples. I think one of the problems with the modern Labour Party is faux-socialists, those who espouse a kind of lazy theoretical socialism, but appear to seldom practice socialism personally. I say lazy, because there often seems to be no substantial effort on their part into thinking deeply about issues, let alone acting. Most of those whom I know (and I know a few) weren't even aware of the 1918 Clause IV before I mentioned it to them in conversation. Some of them have seldom worked in their lives, benefitting from inherited wealth and other easy sources. It's been particularly amusing pointing out to them the parts of the original 1918 Labour policy against the principle of inherited wealth. Some of them have to be prompted to buy a round in the pub, and never give tips to serving staff on ٦/hour. Tight sods. One of them said to me, after Thursday, what a terrible day for the NHS, I'm just glad I've got private health cover with my job. Such people denigrate Tory principles, but appear to practice them themselves.

Perhaps the Labour Party has become too lazy, too theoretical, to actually be clear on real issues that affect genuine people. Without such clarity, it's an environment that naturally attracts the bullshitters and the self-righteous.

Ian Hollingworth
57 Posted 15/12/2019 at 10:51:17
It never ceases to amaze me how often it's inferred on this site that a different opinion to someone's makes that person stupid. That's when we are talking about things Everton which we all love so politics is always going to make that worse.

You don't have to like the Tories but trade with the rest of the world probably means that the city of Liverpool will gain more than most.

It's no secret that the trade shackles of Europe has seen Southern and Eastern ports boom yet those on the West declined. Given that 90% plus of world trade still goes by sea you would expect western ports to blossom.
Oh and by the way we will still trade with Europe, only now we have a stronger negotiating position.
The NHS problems stem from population increase and people living longer thanks to better drugs etc.
It does need better funding and any government faces the same problems.
Each issue should be looked at separately and if we could get away from a Tory stance or a Labour stance we would probably solve the issues a lot quicker for the benefit of everyone.

Voting Labour or Tory based on history and coz our Grandad did is bollocks. The world has changed and politics needs to change with it. The issues should be what you vote for whoever the party.

Politicians etc are much the same when you scratch the service. Just google Len McCluskeys comments on why Corbyn lost to see my point.

Despite the NHS problems it is still the envy of the world testament to the heroic people who work in it.

Alan McGuffog
58 Posted 15/12/2019 at 11:09:08
Ian, you highlight some excellent points. As a Labour voting Remainer I don't buy into all the hype about how bloody wonderful membership of EU is.
I recommend Brian Towers superb book about our docklands, Waterfront Blues and the effect the changing of the geography of our trade had on the docks and the big industries..Tate and Lyle, BAT, Bibbys etc.
As one commentator put it, the traditional economy was put to the sword by Thatcherism and the EU. In return Objective 1 and 2 funds poured in to enable the " Disneyfication" of Merseyside.
Fair makes ye think🤔
Peter Gorman
59 Posted 15/12/2019 at 11:10:00
Evertonians know their football alright, but this thread confirms they know fuck all about politics.

A nice experiment but one I'd not wish to see repeated. Everton brings us all together, from so many walks of life. Politics will only divide us. No thanks from me.

Andrew Ellams
60 Posted 15/12/2019 at 11:10:05
For me the story to describe this General Election is Blyth Valley, the poorest constituency in the North East of England with 31% unemployment and 24% child poverty electing a Tory candidate who it now turns out lies to them about what he did for a living. That and Tommy Robinson, disqualified from joining UKIP because of his extreme right wing affiliations has now joined the Tory Party.
Stan Schofield
61 Posted 15/12/2019 at 11:17:43
Ian@57: Good post. It could be argued that the old division into Tory and Labour no longer really applies practically given increased standards of living since, say, the start of the NHS. Too much political discussion seems over-polarised and over-simplified, when reality is more complex and nuanced. This polarisation seems to apply to a lot of things. When people stick to a polarised position, as many tend to do, reason can go out the window, and confusion and bullshit prevail. Brexit debates have been a prime example, three years of folks shouting at each other.

It's OK being polarised and tribal in sport, which is arguably the whole idea of it. Everton will always be great (even when we're actually shite). But being so in real life outside of 22 blokes kicking a leather sphere seems ridiculous.

James Hughes
62 Posted 15/12/2019 at 11:24:56
Just seen a thread that scousers are calling for independence from England 🤣🤣
Mike Doyle
63 Posted 15/12/2019 at 11:27:27
As far as I can see the election was essentially re-run of the EU referendum.
Remain cities such as Liverpool & Manchester returned Labour MPs (in the hope of a second vote presumably?).
Don't forget many Millions of people did vote Labour at this election, but
It was clear when the Blyth result came in that the tactical presence of the Brexit party in Leave-voting Labour areas did give a modest number of people who would never vote Tory the option to vote for someone other than Labour/Corbyn. I expect Nigel Farage will be getting a nice prezzie from Tory Central Office this year.
Paul Tran
64 Posted 15/12/2019 at 11:54:36
Andrew #60, from up here in Scotland, your story about Blyth has a different ring. Despite the obvious flaws in Johnson and his party, thousands of lifelong Labour voters went out in the wind and rain to vote against Corbyn. That's some achievement by Labour. Up here they have deservedly become an irrelevance.
Jerome Shields
65 Posted 15/12/2019 at 12:09:20

They should have done that after the last election, but they all got carried away with thinking the Government would collapse and Corbyn thinking his time had come, when it actually had past.


I am not advocating by 'New words and New power(s)' the return of New Labour, what I am talking about is a generational shift, since Brexit and associated complications are going to take a generation to sort out.

Government policy is now run by special interest groups and lobbies and lip service is paid to the actual voter.

Shane Corcoran
66 Posted 15/12/2019 at 12:15:48
A right few posts on this thread and not a mention for the poor ould DUP.

Let me be the first to say HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.

Ciarán McGlone
67 Posted 15/12/2019 at 13:21:57
Shane.. I mentioned Nigel Dodds on the other thread, it didn't make the cut..

Hes an Evertonian by the way..

Shane Corcoran
68 Posted 15/12/2019 at 21:44:10
Ciaràn, he probably supports Everton because someone told him it was wrong.
Si Cooper
69 Posted 16/12/2019 at 00:21:00
Anyone who thinks the continuing increasing divide between the London ‘hinterland' and the rest of the country is simply down to the EU is plain wrong as far as I am concerned. Being run solely from Westminster will not shift that long-term bias.

The poor transport links in the North are not going to be brought up to spec just because a few extra ships start sailing straight to Liverpool and the attraction of the port won't change until they have been. It's a chicken-and-egg scenario.

Socialism exists in many forms. The NHS itself is an example of it. It is just a matter of how far you want the principle of everyone putting into a shared pot for those who need it to take out to go. To casually lump it in with fascism is ridiculous.

Andy Crooks
70 Posted 16/12/2019 at 00:41:22
Shane@ 66 this is just the beginning. RHI is still to come.

Ciaran, Dodds is indeed a Toffee. As was, and there is no segue here, Hitler's sister-in-law, Bridget. She lived in Dublin but moved to Liverpool. I believe her house was destroyed in an air raid.

She is a little known blue, as is Dodds.

Phill Thompson
71 Posted 16/12/2019 at 16:55:17
Paul Tran, I'm just down the coast from you, and much to people's consternation/ disbelief re-elected the incumbent Tory MP. Drew Henry is a fine politician who serves his constituency and party well. We had Angus Robertson until 2017, he's sorely missed.
Paul Tran
72 Posted 19/12/2019 at 13:53:43
Hey Phill, you must be in Moray, where the crap Tory referee won by just 500 votes? Next time, eh?

You're right, Drew Hendry is a very good MP. We need more like him.

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