Premier League — Week 20

How did we end up with Ancelotti when Moyes was still available?

Moyes joins West ham.

Geoff, yeah slipped up there, but I think it may work out in the end for us. 👓😋

It's not VAR, it's just LAR! Surely their luck has got to change soon, although it's not something 8 would ever count upon, obviously.

Sky are terribly corrupt. 3 times they ignored the fact Van Dijk handballs before he passes to Lallana.

Sick of the corrupt side of this game. Level playing field is a fantasy.

Surely football has got to start creating different attacking zones now that its version of VAR is just ruining a simple sport.

Sky seem to be saying there was a further VAR review of the Liverpool goal at half-time after players and coach alerted officials to a handball. Surely VAR can't be used again like that?

It was Van Dijk, Brent. They completely ignored the fact the bestest ever defender in the whole of time could possibly do that.

Of course, Paul!

Alerted by a coach haha. What a load of my arse this game is. All that CCTV and still needing a set of eyes to spot the obvious.

What a joke.

A further review? Makes me sick to think they can try and insult knowledgeable football fans anymore.

Paul A, CCTV is a tool used in a court of law but depending on the case, it has been known for footage to be lost, or even stolen, but this is different because everyone could see Van Dijk, handle the ball?

Why look at something at half-time? So they don't get it wrong again next week? Obviously depending on the teams, but it's Bournemouth and Wolves, who have got the biggest case to argue with the EPL'S governing body, because both of these teams have been back on the pitch again less than 48 hours after finishing their last fixture and both with games away from home, whilst our neighbours once again get the most rest in between games.

The only thing worse than Liverpool being top is listening to some of the commentators. I know I could turn the sound down but I'm listening to Jim Beglin, and he sounds like he's just sitting in the Kop talking to his mate, and I sometimes need to listen to some of this unadulterated shite for future reference!

Bizarre.

Tony that was my point mate. As if they would need someone to point a handball out as if the camera had missed it.

They blatantly ignored it at the time. Listen to Carragher correcting where he thought the handball was before the decision came through.

They are full of shit.

To be honest, it's a big improvement that they did look at it at half-time. Against us at 2-1, they didn't bother to look because they would have had to send him off so a new rule was made by the ref just to ignore VAR.

We both know what they're really like Paul A, because we live in the same city as them and they are fucking brilliant at acting daft, but I remember them at Old Trafford, earlier this season demanding VAR took it right back when United scored, but maybe all football fans are really the same!

Credit to Wolves today, they've had a really good go and have shown incredible fitness levels considering what time they got off the pitch on Friday night, with a team that is evolving, and playing in Europe looks like it's helping them immensely imo.

Come on, we all know VAR is there to make sure we get the "correct" result.

Wolves signed very good players, mate. They have that Jorge Mendes fella doing backhanders for them but, fair play, if you can't beat them, join them.

Can't agree with you about it being an improvement, Conor, because if you can't get it right when it matters, then a team is still getting robbed because of poor officials, especially when Taylor said he knew it hit his arm but it was too far back in the move to call it back?

Too far back being one long pass coming off someone's shoulder and then a goal, and probably about 4/5 seconds. Every team has had bad decisions because of VAR, but Wolves must be feeling sick after that right now.

Sheff Utd are having a good go at Man City, so let's hope Everton can do the same on New Year's Day.

Sorry, Tony, I meant that sarcastically... the lowest form of wit and all that.

I think matters have reached the point where the number of decisions going in Liverpool's favour, especially through VAR, needs to be questioned. They are a very good side but today's interpretations were a disgrace and they raise suspicions of bad faith.

I stated at the start of the season, whether you like it or not, VAR was here to stay. The thing I am against with it, is it takes all the excitement from the game after a goal is scored, as you have to wait for someone else miles away to say if it counts.

I agree with the rule on offside should be looked at as we have had goals disallowed from fingertips to toenails for offside.

I love sarcasm, Conor, but I've never got much wit when talking about the other crowd though, mate!

I was just making the point that it was nice of them to take the effort to have a look this time, even the pretence of objectivity is nice to see.

Bill, Sheff Utd, have just had one ruled out but it was the correct decision and also straight forward with the player who scored being the one who received the ball in a very marginal offside position.

Taylor couldn't bring Van Dijk's handball back, but VAR, could bring back the Wolves player being offside by a thumb-nail, out wide on the touch line, which just shows the lack of consistency with the whole VAR process at the minute.

It wasn't the linesman's fault he got the offside wrong with it being so tight, but even though everyone could see Van Dijk's handball, we are not going to over-rule the referee for such a terrible decision, because it's not why VAR has been introduced to the game right now!

It reminds me of Bullseye, all those years ago Conor, and Jim Bowen saying “come and have a look at what you could have won!”

I still watch it sometimes because I find it funny, (honest) but there's nothing funny about getting robbed though mate, especially at footy.

I have to express my hard luck feelings for Wolves following their undeserved loss at Modor. Liverpool can be beat by any side who aren't overawed by them.

Martin Mason, I agree, mate. Loads of their games are won by decisions and fear.

I honestly think we showed a lack of fear there early on, (maybe too fearless) and our youngsters got through them a couple a times when we were one down.

I still think Calvert-Lewin should have been awarded a pen but hey-ho.

Watch how many of the 50/50 decisions go their way in the cup tie and all the little fouls they make to break our momentum go unpunished.

It's the momentum breaks that do more harm over the 90 mins and they have always got that advantage over us.

To add to the preceding two comments, earlier this evening whilst collecting my son and grandchildren from a party, I heard a follower of Liverpool moaning about FFP and the big advantage that Manchester City had over poor Liverpool but that things were starting to look up after 30 years of hurt.

I was flabbergasted, somehow kept control of my mouth, grandchildren on board, and the car.

I have no words, COYB.

Tony, there's nothing wrong with watching Bullseye. Mullets, white socks, hostess trolleys, speed boats, we've had a good time, Jim, we'll give the others a chance. Your charity money's safe.
After your turkey and your Christmas pud, a bit of Bully will do you good.

Keep out of the black etc. Top stuff. Jim Bowen and Howard Kendall two men at their peak.

Andy, best thing about Bullseye was when someone won a speedboat and they always lived in a tower block in the Midlands. So bad it was wonderful.

Ahh, for the 16% who voted for his return, a tale of what might have been.

Link

Moyes confirmed as new West Ham Utd manager.

Moyes and Bullseye - look what we could have won!

Tony,

The Van Dijk decision was another strange one as I thought VAR was supposed to be used for all parts leading up to the goal, and that should have included Van Dijk's involvement. But as Uefa are thinking of using robots for linespersons, the best is yet to come. As I said, the use of VAR is taking the excitement from the game and that will eventually lose spectators.

It's sad to think we got Ancelotti when (laughing up sleeve) we could have got Moyes. Hope he gets more than bubbles blown up his arse.

Glad Gollum has found a home, West Ham fans think he has some unfinished business and should not have been sacked. Only unfinished business I can think of is confirmation of them being relegated.

Worth looking at how West Ham fans are reacting to this on Twitter. Let's just say it's not positive!!!

Stay in the black and out of the red, you don't get nowt for two in a bed.

Apparently the pilot was so bad, they nearly scrapped the whole thing. You can't beat a bit of Bully!

Conor,

You are not alone, mate. I too with world class naivety thought that VAR would be a great leveller, the likes of Liverpool and Man Utd at home would now be dealt the same hand as ourselves.

How fuckin wrong we were, eh? It just gives the individuals involved another opportunity to bottle it or look away.

Not only has VAR done nothing to stop inherent favouritism of the chosen few, it is having a detrimental effect on the whole game as a live spectacle. I really believe it to be a chronic disservice to football.

What a nightmare for the West Ham fans. The stuff that's being posted on Twitter should be sobering to those who like to claim Moyes did a respectable job for them the first time around.

A few WH fan statements after Moyes' appointment.

"This club makes me fucking sick,"

"No ambition whatsoever,"

"You can take my season ticket and stick it where the sun don't shine! Next level? Seriously!"

"I honestly hope you receive a winding up order and liquidate,"

Thank God we didn't bring him back. Feel sorry for West Ham, always liked them as they (usually) try to play the right way and in the Di Canio days were a bit crazy.

Re the Liverpool win tonight. Just ridiculous. Ref disallows their goal - VAR overrules and gives is. Ref gives Wolves' goal - VAR overrules and disallows it. Just what dodgy deal has been done with some far eastern betting syndicate to give them the league this year? They've already had about half a dozen dodgy VAR decisions go their way this season. Without VAR they'd be on about 10 points less!

I don't know who instigated VAR but, in my opinion, we don't need it and it is ruining football as we know it. Obviously no supporters were ever asked to contribute to its introduction.

I hear now they're talking about changing the laws of the game to suit VAR, unbelievable! It is definitely an anti-match-going-supporters thing and the best day ever would be the day it's binned.

It's a good thing that Moyes didn't come back to us! According to his statement on rejoining West Ham on an 18-month contract, quoting from the SSN:

Upon his return, he said: "It's fabulous to be back. It feels great to be home. I've missed being here because I really enjoyed it."

Phew!

To be fair to him, Derek, Moyes also said he had 'unfinished business' at West Ham.

Like fully completing the job he did at Sunderland, d'ya think he means..?

Denis.

Of course, football is now completely bent. When you play Liverpool, you are actually up against the combined financial might of Nike, Nivea, Standard Chartered Bank, Western Union and New Balance. They have Amazon, the BBC, BT and Sky in their pockets too. These companies want their products in the hands of trophy winners and will pay accordingly, under the radar of course.

Dark forces, mate, just do not believe it is sport any longer and more often than not we are the flip side of the coin.

Just a quick question: Will VAR be in use for the 3rd Round FA Cup game on January 5th?

I think Moyes going to West Ham makes the Premier league even more exciting. Who wishes him well? I don't really care but I am intrigued to see if he can still do a job. It could have been us, it very nearly was.

I wonder by how much we dodged the Moyes bullet?

Albert, how much we dodged the bullet was the distance between Italy and Scotland supported by an owner who finally got some sense – without you know who on the board, getting his way.

I shudder to think of how close we were to reappointing Moyes. Many TWers were also resigned to getting him here on a short-term deal to help us avoid relegation, apparently!

Now, I do respect what he did for the club for 1st 5-6 years of his reign, but then he started believing in all the media hype about himself, he lost his humility, he began to believe that he was doing us a favour. That is when we got stale, never believed that he or Everton could win anything.

Thank god for good sense to prevail over Brands and Moshiri. Now, we don't know how the Carlo appointment will ultimately turn out, but at least we will know that we tried with one of the very best managers to lead our club. Here is hoping for a new dawn in our beloved club's history.

Ajay, stop shuddering. We were never close to reappointing Moyes. No way it was ever gonna happen. It was a hot press rumour, that's all. No basis.

West Ham fire Pellegrini for David Moyes??? They hated him! What in the world are they doing? Now that is truly a shite ownership situation.

I can't forgive Moyes for the way he left Everton so disrespectfully. When saying about Martinez, “He'll learn how it works over there” [paraphrase] and then poaching our players for buttons. He was a dick about the entire thing.

I hope he goes down with West Ham.

That might be the worst managerial appointment I've ever seen. Horrible. Poor West Ham fans will have no hope and they'll be full of venom I'll bet.

Moyes is just stoked to get one final pay-day. I can't believe his luck after the run he's had since leaving Everton!

On VAR I would like to know more about just how the thing is set-up. It has become normal in tennis to believe Hawkeye despite it elongating and distorting reality and exaggerating things with graphics. It would be interesting to see a camera set-up solely focussed on one of the lines and compare its footage to the Hawkeye system.

Similarly, I would like to know at what point a ball is deemed to have been played by the foot and what difference it would make if the ball was deemed to have left the foot an instant earlier or later.

I'm not sure how many frames per second modern video is recorded in, but in my younger days, I worked in the animation industry and we had 24 frames of action in one second. Now if you look at the speed of football 24 frames per second can cover a fair bit of movement. It can thus be decided that a ball has "left" a boot at the moment when an armpit is offside but if one decided that the ball left the boot one 24th of a second earlier, that offender would be well onside.

Therefore the person looking at the footage has a certain amount of input as to when this occurs. This means that if the Video Ref has a personal bias or there is a general feeling amongst those in the game that it would be "good for the product" that a certain team benefits, then there is the flexibility to interpret events favourably.

The focus on TV is always on the superimposed line showing toenials or armpits on or offside. What I would like to see is the boot and ball and a close-up from more than one angle to detect the instant of release and how that relates to the resultant decision.

Interesting points, Eddie.

I feel however the answer to your question is quite simple. The ‘right' call is whichever is needed to give Liverpool an advantage.

The disallowed Wolves goal being a case in point. The guy was about 2 cm offside. How that isn't basically level I'll never know.

With referees, either on the pitch or in a studio 200 miles away, Liverpool are in a win-win situation. To be honest, they are a very good team and the best in the league at this time but there is no doubt the help they receive from referees doesn't do them any harm at all.

I was going to write a long, reasoned post but then I realised I could encapuslate what I wanted to say in two words: Fuck VAR.

Scrap it at the end of the season and let's get back to booing the refs on the field, not the refs in a bunker playing video games.

Michael @ 52; won't happen. Should do... but won't; they'll change the rules to fit VAR. But, as the rules are worldwide, from the Zingari to the Champions League, how's that going to work? Up to now, it seems the VAR naysayers were right.

The tail is wagging the dog here. It should be for The Referee to ask: Did I see what I thought I saw? Not for VAR to pull The Referee up on something he thinks is okay.

"His elbow was offside" — my arse!

Somewhere soon VAR, is going to create a riot, and the people who can't control their emotions will be scorned upon. I much prefer The Jams, modern world, to this robotic society that is being created upon us right now.

Jamie 51- the appointment of Moyes might be the worst you've seen. I have no love for Moyes but judging from the outside if I were a West Ham fan I would think that is just what is needed.

They are a squad with great ability but they lack cohesion and fight and if they got this appointment wrong they would be drifting for the Championship.

Moyes was brought in on a 18 month contract which is probably the least he would have taken but suggests the owners only want him to keep them up and is no show of faith. He also did well the last time there so I would imagine he will get a few out of their comfort zone like he did with Arnautovic.

I think he is ideal for them

The devious one is either getting clever, or is maybe not so desperate now, if he's actually getting 18 months out of The Hammers. This proves that you never stop learning (even if it's off Allardyce) in this game!

Eddie Dunn 53

Very well said. You cover a point I've (less articulately) made since the introduction of VAR.

There is all this fussing about players being offside by 1mm yet absolutely no consideration when the ball was kicked.

Determining when the ball left a players boot is a really difficult task in itself. It might even be impossible without ultra-slow motion cameras. That is fine and I think imperfection in that sense is understandable. However, if they can't get that right then how can they be over-ruling referees on the basis that a ‘clear and obvious' error has been made?

I would wager we'll see a change to that terminology before next year, too. ‘Clear and obvious' will be replaced by something even more vague.

Well what did anyone expect of VAR when you have one of the worst refs I have seen put in charge of it. The best way to resolve it in my opinion is for all decisions will be left to the on field ref. All the VAR ref should do is suggest to the ref he may want to look at the goal he awarded or didnt award. Then the onfield ref goes to his monitor and makes the final decision after looking at what the VAR ref asked him to look at. I would also suggest what the ref is looking at is displayed on the screen.

I would also stop the use of these lines being drawn across the pitch, let the on field ref look at it without the lines and make his decision on what he sees.

Why does Mike Riley decide that refs wont use on field monitors, also how come other leagues let the ref use the monitor. It shows how bad this system is when you have ex refs disagreeing with VAR decisions, This delay every time a goal is scored waiting to see if VAR will let it stand or not is killing the game. You celebrate the goal then have to wait to see if it will stand, most fans in the stadium hate VAR as it kills the atmosphere completely.

You can tinker all you like with VAR, or with the rules of the game to make VAR work better, but it's still the football equivalent of your mum bursting into your bedroom when you're mid-wank.

The only thing that could bring consistency to VAR, is to let the ref communicate with the person inside the control room, with everyone watching being able to hear the conversations, every single game.

They get away with murder because they don't have to come right out and explain themselves, leaving it for everyone else to argue, and usually about “who said what”, in the television studios, which are usually dominated by ex-players of the teams that are getting the most favourable decisions, is how I'd probably break it all down?

Brian Wilkinson#45 - short answer, yes! Like last season it will be used at games played on PL grounds but not elsewhere. Weird!
As to VAR in general, there is only one team in the PL that has not had a VAR decision cost and indeed gain them points - no surprises for guessing which!
Graham Hammond#44 is spot on - Sky bean counters will be rubbing their hands at the anticipated increase in Sky Sport subscriptions etc if and when "their" club is eventually given the PL title.
If we are to be forever cursed with any form of video review, it should be as Brian Harrison#62 suggests - and even then should only be used if it can genuinely be suggested to the ref that he may have made a clear and obvious error.
The system as it stands and is currently used is corrupt and stinks.

I know I will get some stick for this but I think the VAR is here to stay - and is a good thing in the long run.

The way it is implemented right now is horrible. Football never wants to hear about other sports, but take a look at cricket, rugby, tennis or even field hockey. They've all sorted it out in a better way. Football will get there but typical as it is - football is inventing the wheel again.

I think I once read an interview with a cricket umpire who said one thing people needed to adjust was their expectation about the VAR. It's not about getting the right calls percentage from 90% to 100%. Video assisted refereeing is not going to do that. But to get from 90% to 93% or even 95% is progress. I feel this is one of the things football is doing wrong - case in hand are all the on-side/off-side discussions. VAR wants to score 100%. But as Eddie #53 demonstrated very well, a lot of times even with all the video evidence at hand, it is still very dubious to make the call. And in those instances, VAR should not make the call at all.

Erik, couldn't disagree with you anymore mate. If VAR, wanted 100% success then surely Liverpool's goal would have been disallowed yesterday, once it was reviewed inside the studio?

The fact that I'm disagreeing with you proves that the only thing VAR, is doing at the minute is creating even more arguments, which is the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do.

I don't think it's trying to invent the wheel again Erik, I just think it hasn't got a clear clue, which is probably proved best by the inconsistencies we are seeing every single week.

Ah, the Modern World, Tony. Not their best work perhaps (All Mod Cons, Settings Sons for me) but it has a definite place in my heart, I got my copy (reissue in Woolies for 3 quid) at the same time as my teenaged heart got broken for the first time.
On VAR, I really don't see why there can't be the equivalent of umpire's call in cricket. 'Clear and obvious' hints at this (but isn't implemented), but for offside decisions surely it wouldn't be difficult to have a 'zone of uncertainty' of a foot or so?

This VAR lark is just getting ridiculous now. The obvious answer is simple. IF ANY PART OF YOUR BODY IS ONSIDE, then a goal should stand. For years I always thought if any part of your foot was over the touchline for a throw in, then it was a foul throw. Not the case though. As long as any part of your foot (obviously your heel) is behind the touchline, then it is a legitimate throw in. It's the same in cricket. When a bowler has all, or part of his heel, on or over the crease line, it's a no ball. As long as any part of his heel, even if it's millimetres, is behind the crease line, then it's a good ball.

So it's simple, as long as any part of your body is onside, then you're onside.

I'd prefer to take this VAR, and loads of the refs that implement it, “down in the tube station at midnight” Sean, even if they were prepared to add Rob's common sense, into the laws of the game right now!

What a song that is Tony! Story telling anthem.

Michael#63.
Cheers for that. Spat coffee all over my kecks! 🤣

Tony #67, agree on the handball. Should have been spotted. But the explanation as I read it says the handball happened 'too far back in the move' to be considered for review. And this to me is quite typical for football, the rules about what is the starting point for a phase of play that leads to a goal are very much subject to interpretation. It's not simply something like 'when the attacking team gained possession of the ball'. Interpretation leads to discussions all day long. As long as you have rules in the VAR-system that are subject to interpretation, you will keep the discussions and VAR will not feel like an improvement.

You just know that if Coleman made that handball in the run-up to an Everton goal against Liverpool the VAR would have said it was in the phase of play leading to a goal. New rules should not be subject to interpretation.

VAR is particularly brittle on the offside decisions. The current laws regarding Offside are already complcated with the "not interfering with play" provisios and the "active" versus"inactive" status of players. Perhaps it is time to simplify the rules to make it easier for us all to agree, and for the officials to be able to watch for both, the second the ball is passed, and looking along the line.

With all of the "active" "inactive" etc stuff to keep an eye on, the game is surely being poorly reffereed, as no human could possibly see it all at once, hence the calls for VAR supposedly to help the officials.

If the law was that any player in an offside position when the ball is played results in an offside flag, then we would all be able to judge it clearly.
Surley players deliberately going offside at free kicks etc to draw defenders deeper, are still "active" as they encourage defenders and keepers to keep an eye on them incase they become "Active" again a second or two later.

Messing about with the rules has created this whole mess.
Add to all this the nonesense in Europe, where linos are encouraged to keep their flags down until the move is complete just adds to the confusion and dissappointment, just like the current VAR check on every goal.
Technology, if it can be trusted, is fine if used in a proper system. Cricket is an example where the system is wrong. With the silly review limits, so batters clearly out cannot be reviewed, even though a million viewers all know he should be, brings the game into disrepute, as does the dodgey technology that decides how high the ball will bounce, regardless of any inconsistencies in the surface or wind!
So many times we see imaginary balls being tracked over the stumps, when in the past all that was needed for the Umpire, was for the ball to be in line at a low enough height, and the batsman to either not play a shot, or miss the ball as it hit his pad.
They have over complicated it, so that they now rely on the flawed technology to get their decisions, and in the process leave players on the pitch, who were clearly out, whilst others are deemed out on an imaginary ball hitting imaginary stumps.
Football needs to be simplified or we will be forever mired in technology, that may or may not give us a more accurate decision.
I would suggest that for a player to be offside, the attacker should be given the benefit of the doubt, and clear daylight should be visible between the attacker's torso and the defender's for offside to be granted. This would be much clearer to see, less flagging and no toenails and armpits.

Offside with an armpit is an absolute nonsense. How many goals are scored by an armpit, It used to be if you're level, you're on.

Now a striker has to be fully behind the defender to be certain. Absolute nonsense.

There's absolutely no point in adjusting the rules to suit VAR. If the offside rule changed to "clear daylight" or "whole limb" it would just shift the controversy to a different part of the body. The problem is the endless, fun-busting minutes while some c**t in a bunker draws lines up and down the pitch and scratches the bideo back and forth like Grandmaster Flash until he realises that it's Salah so he's onside.

Until VAR can produced instantaneous outcomes, it's shit.

Too far back in the move is funny, bring back the long ball game and you won't be punished for an obvious infringement, is the only logical answer to that Erik!

How's about having a rail that runs alongside the pitch, above the advertising hoardings with thousands of tiny sensors that can detect a chemical that is injected into every player, including subs. The chemical will be present in the bloodstream but not reach hair or toenails. The home team's chemical will be of a different compound to the away side.
Job done.
May I suggest that in the FA Cup tie at Anfield the away side should be injected with caffeine and the home team something like . (suggestions on a postcard please...)

If I was a referee or linesman in the Premier League I would resign over the introduction of VAR. I'm not sure how long it takes to become a premiership referee,there's lads on here will know better than me.But to reach that level and have a decision overturned by some gobshite sitting far away from the incident as to render their experience in reaching this pinnacle as a referee
I would find soul destroying.Why bother with a referee.The game is pandering to a completely different type of supporter.The fans that go regularly home and away don't matter any more.Its geared to the Sky / BT/ Amazon viewers who don't go to games but demand football to fit within there leisure time.In other words,football is no longer a working man's game and hasn't been since the start of the premier League.Its going to become a sort of Rollerball/Stephen King nightmare whereby individuals will bet on various incidents throughout a game oh hang on,they do that now
I support Everton because it's in my blood, I have even got Everton on my birth certificate being born in Mill Road so yes.Evertonians are born.I don't watch any other football if I can help it because the hype and what I have said above render it all shite to me.
I have rambled on a lot here but I have had a celebratory drink as my wife is now out of danger and on the road to recovery although I will have many months of rehab with her.I am humbled by the many heartfelt messages I have had from fellow blues and even feel George's cosmic grooves coming through as I write.To all fellow ToffeeWebers throughout the world,I wish you all the very best for the New Year...have to sign off now the ale has got the best of me.NSNO