Sideshow: COVID and vaccines

He'll be fine, it's no worse than the seasonal flu. Unless he's daft enough to take the Frankenvax, that is.

Jay: “He'll be fine, it's no worse than the seasonal flu. Unless he's daft enough to take the Frankenvax, that is.“

Seasonal flu? I won't even talk about the hundreds of thousands who have died (admittedly the vast majority of them far older than Iwobi but he could still pass it on to someone else) or myself who is still experiencing symptoms three months after infection.

To make it more relevant to Iwobi's situation, I'd say tell what you said to Allan Saint-Maximin of Newcastle who lost weeks of this season because of Covid.

As for the "Frankenvax" comment... FFS. How many millions of people across the globe have to have the jab with absolutely no reaction before doubters like you begin to regard these vaccines as the miracles of science they are?

Well said, Lyndon.

Jay; maybe you'd like to volunteer in the Covid wards at my local hospital? I'm sure you'd pass up on protective gear etc as "it's no worse than the seasonal flu".

Jay Woods's quote is the work of a fool who actually believes he has an open mind and is a free thinker.

"Frankenvax". God almighty, you haven't the wit you were born with.

I had my Frankenvax today. It made me ecstatically happy... and even less tolerant than usual of moronic, ignorant garbage like the "seasonal flu" comment. But the commenter is a consistent source of drivel, so this is no surprise at all.

Andy #21, must disagree. He has exactly the wit he was born with -- the ability to cry, suckle and fill a diaper.

In the meantime, wishing a swift recovery to Iwobi -- if only for Colin's sake.

And DK #15, thanks for the chuckle.

Do people leaving the country not have to be tested and get the result back a couple of days before?

I just hope he has a full and quick recovery.

Mike Gaynes. In full agreement. Some sick people around.

The ignorance regarding COVID by some people is astounding. I had a very mild version at the beginning of the year and I'm still suffering with after effects.

My wife's parents (S. America) have been holed up at home since last April and have no hope of getting the Frankenvax for the foreseeable future. So, thank your lucky stars you live in a country with an NHS and the possibility of being vaccinated, number 8.

An individual cboice the vaccine.

If your getting it, good luck.
If your not getting it, good luck.

Each to thier own.

Not when it comes to highly contagious diseases, Thomas. You wouldn't turn down a polio or measles vaccine, would you?

I haven't been offered eitber of them Colin.

I have been offered this vaccination. I politely refused the offer.

Thomas, I presume you have been vaccinated against polio, measles, diphtheria and the like? Viruses that killed millions every year.

But of course Thomas, I assume you won't be calling on our public health services if you get ill as a result of your refusal?

You assume wrongly, Steve.

Can't remember to be honest, Colin.

Probably was as a child.

Totally endorse what many on this thread are saying. Covid is real, people young and old have been impacted by it.

I wish Iwobi a speedy and full recovery. Long covid is career threatening for sports people.

The more people vaccinated the more control we have over its spread and further impact.

Thought so.

Steve,

Would you refuse health care to anyone declining the vaccination?

Thomas Richards, I really admire your principles.

Tom at 45,

It won't come down to health care as society will determine it. Like smoking, you will become socially ostracized for eg no vaccine – can't travel; no vaccine – then no ale; no vaccine – then no food served here.

You see my point?

Thomas, I don't want to get into an endless argument but, if I was a doctor and had to choose between a patient (cancer, for example) desperate for treatment and an anti-vaxxer, I know who I'd choose.

This is where it becomes political. I thought long and hard, didn't really want to get the vaccine because I don't believe it stops a person getting Covid, but eventually decided to get it, but mainly because at the back of my mind I'd like to go on vacation.

The protection the vaccine gives should help me, but maybe now their might be a lot more asymptotic cases because of this, (considering full protection still won't save everyone?) so I honestly don't understand why people want to criticise those that don't want to receive the jab, just as I understand that a lot of people are very frightened, and do want to get vaccinated, hopefully to start living a better life again.

John,

No, I don't see your point, to be honest. Won't happen. Licensee board have condemned the proposal.

You can't buy food if you are not vaccinated? That won't happen either.

What I would like an answer to: If you are getting the vaccine, you would be immune from them not getting it?

Colin,

Me neither.

What about the doctors who are not having the vaccine?
Who treats them if they require medical help?

Tony, what is this utter tosh you are posting:

"I don't believe it stops a person getting Covid"?

"Maybe now there might be a lot more asymptotic cases because of this (considering full protection still won't save everyone)."

It's about increasing your resistance to getting the disease and passing it on to the rest of us. Really simple. Nothing provides "full protection". There always exceptions... but you don't need to be one.

Jesus Christ... where the fuck do you get this shit from? And why WHY WHY do you post it on this website???

Pack it in, for fuck's sake. Nothing annoys me more than fucking anti-vaxers.

Don't know about licensee board, Tom, but I have relations that are struggling to keep their pub businesses open and they are adamant no-one is getting in without having had the vaccine.

They are saying it's their bar staff who are asking for this for their own protection. A bit naive to say this won't happen, imho.

Time will tell John.

I have mates who own licensed premises. They all laughed at the proposal.

Michael.

Speaking for myself.

I understand where you are coming from. I believe you are in the majority in your thinking.

The term "anti-vaxxers" suggests a movement or an organised group I am not part of.

It is an individual choice on my part not to have the vaccine.

Tricky one. People should be encouraged to take it, but not forced in my opinion. I will take it as I have no issue and, like Tony, I want to be able to travel. I don't have issue with those who opt not to.

Vaccination programmes help contain the spread of diseases but don't stop them. No vaccine guarantees this and we are not mandated to have others. Eventually, once the media hysteria over this dies down, we will (I hope & anticipate) learn to live with this like we have with others previously.

The notion of making it a stigma and branding those who don't, doesn't sit comfortable with me; it's a personal choice. Straying into discussion of refusing medical treatment is dodgy territory, although I appreciate no-one is actually suggesting this here. We don't do this for smokers and repeat alcoholics and they make choices, despite the very well know and publicised government medical advice and health guidance.

Before deploying to various parts of the globe, we used to get what we called a vaccine "cocktail". Several shots in a 1 - 2 day period. I knew what some of them where, some I took no notice, just obliged (no choice!!). Along with starting the course of malaria tablets, it was pretty rough for some, so I'm comfortable with this.

Football; loved seeing the Dutch fans in the stadium last night, just intrigued on the different arrangements in different sections of the arena. Watching France now; very strong squad and favourites for the Euros? Lucas Digne is playing very high and wide up the pitch with "chalk on his boots" when France get possession.

Why not, Thomas?

Don't you want to be protected against catching Covid-19?

Don't you want to reduce the chances of you carrying and passing the infection on to others?

Danny, don't be posting garbage please or you'll upset me:

"Vaccination programmes help contain the spread of diseases but don't stop them."

Smallpox.

May a pox be upon you, Danny!!😄😄

Not wanting to upset you or anyone Michael. Smallpox is a fair and good example. I probably should have inserted the word mostly in there. But a lot of viruses do mutate. This will be a rolling vaccine programme that has to adapt year on year just as for many other viruses that we live with that haven't gone away, we just contain and protect against them.

Look, I'm not an "anti-vaxxer" nor do I dismiss the seriousness of the pandemic. My wife is vaccinated, my son will be shortly due to his profession and I am patiently waiting. But, I am comfortable if someone decides they don't wish to take a vaccine. The majority will and that will help protect society from this. Nothing is ever 100%. Or I should say, most things are never 100%.

"So far, vaccines have entirely wiped out two diseases: smallpox and rinderpest, which infects cattle.

They've also come extremely close to eradicating polio, with less than 500 new cases annually worldwide.

In the United States, a long list of diseases have been nearly eradicated by vaccines: diphtheria, bacterial influenza, measles, mumps, rubella, and tetanus, among others.

Sadly, there are many developing countries that have limited vaccine supplies and scant funding for childhood vaccination services, which has allowed preventable diseases like whooping cough and rotavirus to continue spreading".

Just had my second Pfizer vaccination and hopefully I will be a small cog in the wheel to eradicate this dreadful disease.

Michael, you obviously haven't read my post properly - again, but I often think you come out with a lot of shite, and would much sooner prefer to learn from somebody who is more civil, intelligent, and reads my posts properly, considering I said I've been vaccinated.

I got the BCG, when I was at school Michael, and still managed to get TB. I'm not anti anything, I actually put up my post for the reasons I put in my first paragraph, so somebody more intelligent than you might explain to me better than you do.

My actual thoughts were that if Thomas, doesn't get vaccinated, and then gets Covid, he might really suffer, and have to self-isolate. But if Thomas got vaccinated, and never suffered as a result, he might pass it onto more people, (but if everyone got vaccinated, this wouldn't matter, you might say) and someone who ends up being the unlucky one.

Well said MK, #54,56&57

Very wishy-washy nonsense, Danny.

It's not 100% because of people who turn down the jab – and who make feeble excuses for others to do the same.

If you do your part, for the sake of the community, and have your jab, then you are making that tiny little contribution to bringing it ever closer to 100%.

Of course there are mutations. The likelihood of mutations is increased by people who remain unprotected against the virus. The likelihood of mutations is reduced among people who are protected against the virus by having the vaccinations.

The latest CV-19 discussion in this thread was prompted by the imbecilic offering @ 8 which dismissed the virus as 'no worse than the seasonal flu' and implied - as per the most barking conspiracy theories doing the rounds - that the vaccines being successfully delivered around the globe are part of a devious plot by an evil cartel to reduce/control the world population by sci-fi biometric chemistry.

The responses to that post have now warped into a discussion on the right to choose to have the vaccine or not.

They are two very distinct issues.

The denialism together with the belief in the most absurd conspiracy theories of the first IMO merit total contempt and dismissal.

The choice to be vaccinated or not rests with the individual.

Personally, other than those at risk from severe allergic reaction to the vaccine, I see no sensible grounds for refusing the vaccine.

I haven't heard a plausible justification for refusing the vaccination which is based on anything more than 'I don't want to, so there.'

Danny, you come across as a similar human-being to myself mate, and that's why I said it's going to get political mate.

Good post, Jay. I can't agree on the 'personal choice is okay' bit because of the impact that personal choice has on the wider society, ie, all the rest of us.

I think refusing the vaccine is socially irresponsible. The vaccine passport should be the way forward, so that the freedoms of those who wish to perpetuate the disease by their own personal choice are curtailed – to protect the rest of us.

Just to clarify the point about the vaccine creating immunity that is not always the case. An 83yr old dialysis patient I know was vaccinated but caught covid 5 weeks later, however, her survival and full recovery within a week was put down to having the jab.

Overall I have no strong principles regarding vaccinations I get that all medication comes with some risk but agreed to this one because it lessens the odds of passing on covid to the infirm. The problem with covid is if you are an unwitting carrier you are are a ticking bomb to the most vulnerable in our society. In my opinion that should cut across your personal principles.

Tony,

Perhaps you could help me a little bit then as I'm not intelligent enough to read or understand your posts.

This bit seems to say that, after getting the vaccine "maybe now their might be a lot more asymptotic cases because of this". You are saying that being vaccinated will create a lot more asymptomatic cases? – have I got that right?

BTW, us less intelligent people would use 'there' – not 'their' – completely different meaning... and 'asymptomatic' – not 'asymptotic' – completely different meaning.

No wonder I'm having trouble understanding you!

Michael,

Would you back enforced vaccination of the population?

Okay, you are clearly more educated on this than me Michael, so I will leave that there. I tend to lean to what your saying, but have a slightly different view in some aspects, which I guess is the garbage and wishy-washy nonsense part.

Football: France are now overplaying. The danger of when players know they are cruising. They stop doing the basics. For Everton, it says a lot, in my opinion, that we have the first choice left back of what looks to be the best international team in Europe right now.

It's tempting, Thomas.

But I think the Vaccine Passport is a better route. It will provide a constant daily reminder of their stupidity and hopefully let the rest of us know to keep well away from them.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/28/quarter-nhs-staff-areas-refusing-covid-vaccines/

25% of London NHS staff refuse vaccination.
Any thoughts?

Job security, Thomas.

Pardon?

Can you expand on that please Michael?

Michael Kenrick

You seem to react with a lot of hostility to Tony's recent posts on this and other threads. He seems like a relatively inoffensive chap relative to others on here.

Simple, Thomas. Keep the disease going, keep the cases rolling in, do your part to keep spreading it in the worst superpreader locations – hospitals and care homes. Job security.

What are they goona do? They can't sack you for not having the jab.

What other possible reason could there be for being a frontline worker and refusing the jab?

I first got vaccinated before Carey took his taxi, for Polio, since then I've had god knows how many...work / travel related for stuff I can't even remember the names of now...the last 2 were pneumonia and ordinary flu...Covid is a flu like respiratory thing - so I'm in.

Thjnk of it as a fancy flu vaccine - that can save, if not your life, then some other poor buggers.

Feel free not to get your dog or cat vaccinated then try putting them in kennels or a cattery

Feel free not to get your kids vaccinated, then try putting them in to day care.

Feel free not to get vaccinated yourself - then try to get on a plane.

Tough shit...nobody give a fuck about you and your stupidity - your choice.

End of rant

My fault Michael, I'm not the cleverest to be fair, but I thought I spelt my thoughts out better in my final paragraph @61.

You do come across as a first class tool sometimes though Michael, but I suppose it is your website though boss, as I curse my wasted years at school even more now!

Ah the Western way, it's my choice and I'll do what the fuck I like. Kind of selfish really. I manage a team in the NHS and 3 of my staff have refused the vaccine and I'm powerless to do anything about it, even gentle persuasion or conversations about the impact on patients safety is offensive (you have no right to challenge my decision) and they're right, I don't. Just a memo suggesting gentle encouragement from the Trust but once the staff member says “I feel victimised” then that's it, I'm then In the wrong. Some fucked up stuff, let me tell yer.
Personal freedoms need curtailing when facing such a disaster, we won't end up Communists ffs.

At my age, I want to reduce the risk of my contracting Covid, for my own benefit; and I want to reduce the risk of my infecting others (especially where they are vulnerable).

I accept the reports on the efficacy of the vaccines available in the UK (I know of no significant reports of their lack of efficacy); and I accept the reports on their safety (I know of no significant reports of their lack of safety).

Given efficacy and safety, I've had my first jab.

I think I understand the need to maximise wider population immunity in order to minimise the incidence and impact of Covid.

I understand that variants will develop, as with flu, and that variants of the vaccines will be developed in response.

Thomas, 73

I suspect there is a cultural aspect to some NHS staff deciding not to partake the health industry has a disproportionate amount of foreign/ethnic groups employed and not all are in favour of vaccinations.

Interestingly the major cities in the midlands area had over 30% of care workers NOT vaccinated despite being offered the jab but the more rural the study the less the refusal rate. As rural areas tend not to have so many ethnicities on the payroll maybe that supports the hypothesis

You're right, Keiran. I react with far too much hostility toward nice people posting falsehoods on this website.

Tony is a relatively inoffensive chap. In fact, he comes across as a really nice person (unlike me!). But I do struggle to understand many of his posts. Thankfully, now I know why that is: I'm not intelligent enough.

Spot on Barry 83

Tony, you don't come across to me as "not the cleverest"! I might agree or disagree with your views but you ain't no idiot (so read my previous post and get the jab! - joking!).

Michael. 77

Just to clarify.

You are joking there?

They are messing with a deadly virus?

Putting themselves in danger as a tactic of assuring thier employment?

Desperately trying to get back to football!

Paul, that is a debate in itself. I think your opening sentence is definitely a modern phenomena in attitudes.

I hate sounding like a dinosaur. I don't like to beat the younger generation. I witnessed the so called "play station" generation turn into absolute heroes in Afghanistan and literally grow up overnight, stepping up when it counted.

But most definitely, an element of "me" has crept into society. Maybe this is the reset we need, however I am still an advocate of educate, inform and let people make decisions. I get emergencies and crises; I've seen and been involved in enough of those myself. So I get the measures needed in those situations, but at some point, life can and should return to normal.

Barry 83 you might be right about a cultural aspect but my staff are all white.

Michael #84 "I do struggle to understand many of [Tony's] posts. Thankfully, now I know why that is: I'm not intelligent enough".

You're both intelligent, Michael. You might have a better facility with the English language but I still understand Tony's posts.

Tony,

I've re-read the last paragraph @61. It really worries me. Here's why:

"if Thomas got vaccinated, and never suffered as a result, he might pass it onto more people."

No. You're believing something that is simply not true.

Having the vaccine does not increase asymptomatic cases. Who told you this? Where did you get it from? It's not true.

The vaccine reduces the chance of you contracting Covid when exposed. The fewer cases of transmission, the fewer asymptomatic cases also. They are certainly not going to be "a lot more cases", as you falsely claim @48.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you are repeating falsehoods. Please stop.

Michael, like everyone, we don't really know you, so I am sure you are a top person. Not intelligent? Don't recall anyone saying that.

Genuinely, and I believe I speak for the vast, vast majority, in saying we appreciate the time and effort you and the team put into providing, editing, telling (me) off where appropriate to make ToffeeWeb what it is.

I know this is an emotional subject and as Jay (BRZ) called out, one that was started from a very loose throw away comment. It inevitably sparked debate and became politicised, which in itself will generate differences of opinion. Its like Brexit on steroids but I didn't really want to drop the Brexit bomb.

I can't see this government making vaccinations compulsory. As Derek said, pressure will build on people, as shops, airlines, pubs etc will ban people from entry.

Those premises that don't insist on vaccinations, may increasingly find themselves under pressure from their own customers, as they insist on it or vote with their feet.

Some of the reluctance is probably allergy based, some cultural or religious, some because of misinformation or fear. Some even because the likes of EU heads of state have been playing politics with Astra Zeneca, and undermining it.

Some of that you will never overcome, I guess.

Tony, and in fairness, I do think Michael is right to challenge you on some of the assertions made - like the evidence for being able to pass on the virus after having had the jabs.

Paul 89.

I was about to suggest Barry asked you about that.

Gets you thinking though.
If you were working daily in covid ridden hospitals, and you obviously have a medical background, why would you refuse a vaccine?

Danny,

Try Tony @61. Did you miss that one?

But maybe it's because I don't understand his posts... and he's saying something else entirely.

Thomas, one (small) reason might be aversion to needles. I saw Charles Wheeler, Tory MP, on TV the other night saying he won't have the jab as he's scared of needles. He goes to the dentist very frequently so any work needed gets done early, to avoid the need for more significant work later and a needle.

But I guess that's a very minor reason.

A little prick Brent 😁

No, seen that Michael, but I would read Tony's later posts. You are an intelligent and educated individual. I don't know your day job, but in your work here, a better journalist than many mainstream that I tend to ignore these days.

Read what he says later and interpret that. Not black and white quote; read between the lines and interpret. There could be a bit of humility in there.

Tony @65, I do share very similar views with you, especially when we talk of the beautiful game and Everton.

After a fallout over Everton in a bar in Gelsenkirchen last year (attending a Schalke match), my brother quoted that only Evertonians can fall out agreeing with each other. Most of us are in broad (maybe not exact but broad) agreement here.

Now look, Thomas.

On second thoughts, don't.

It is a dreadful plague Covid. Have had experience of vaccines and recommend taking the Covid vaccine, which may prevent getting it, but will aleast reduce the symptoms if you did get it after vaccination.

I hope those that are not able to get it, have it available to them soon. I have friends in various countries in this situation and it does cause them stress, as is normal.

The Spanish Flu 1918- 1920 consisted of three waves, but did not finally peter out till 1922. Even with Vaccines the Current pandemic is following a similar trajectory, thought available treatments now are successful in treating the symptoms.

It was named the Spanish Flu, because first reports came from Spainish Reporters, as Spain was not under censorship, unlike other European Countries during the First World War.

Hope this gives some understanding and wish those that do get it a speedy recovery. .

Michael#84

I would not say you are not intelligent enough , I would say you are just you.

Michael #77,

I have two family members who are nurses, one in ICU in London and one at the Royal in Liverpool. Both are mentally and physically exhausted after a year of this. I find your comments offensive in the extreme.

Have they had their jabs, Stephen?

Danny,

We communicate with words on this forum. Words that are written in posts on threads like this. In black & white.

When someone posts "I didn't really want to get the vaccine because I don't believe it stops a person getting Covid" – that concerns me on so many levels – it should concern everyone.

Seems you're having trouble reading his posts too, if you can't see what Tony is saying @61. I suggest not trying to read between the lines. It really doesn't work.

Thomas Richards, in the US there are no doctors who aren't getting vaccinated. Every medical professional -- doctor, nurse, therapist, tech -- must have it in order to work. And I have never once heard of, or read an account of, a medical professional declining here. I suspect the same is close to the case in the UK, since the article you cited provide a number for "staff", but not doctors specifically. They take their Hippocratic oath seriously.

Tony A., I love ya mate and you're my buddy, but you're off-target, and knowing you for the gent you are I think you'd be absolutely devastated to be the accidental source of somebody else's infection, even someone you didn't know. Get the jab. Please. For their sake and the sake of your own big heart. Even if you don't believe in it.

Brent #97, as a needle-phobe myself I can tell you that's no small matter. I can't even watch an injection on TV. (It's one of God's little jokes that a lifelong needle-hater suddenly got cancer and diabetes, became a medical pincushion and now has to stick himself multiple times a day!) I was a bit stressed as usual to get my shot yesterday, and as usual I wobbled almost out of the chair, but you have to weigh the momentary fear against the potential consequences of not getting it. I call myself multiple non-PC names under my breath and it gets me through it.

PS... just a quick note on Iwobi... I am unable to find any news stories at all saying that he's sick or symptomatic, just that he tested positive. As we know, many times people have the virus but don't become ill. Let's hope Alex is one of those.

Mike,

I live in the UK, US policy is different.

You can suspect doctors are not refusing vaccination in UK. I know some of them are. No idea on percentage of doctors refusing vaccine.

Mike "I call myself multiple non-PC names under my breath and it gets me through it."

We do the same, Mike, you son a.

There, that's got me through it!

I'm not having trouble reading Michael so please don't try to belittle me. I have not done that to you, nor would I.

I get it is an online forum. I get it is the written word that is taken as it is presented.

Maybe the context of what we or an individual is trying to convey isn't always behind the black and white written word. Some are better with the pen than they are with the spoken word. Others can speak in front of an audience but maybe not express that on paper. We're all different.

Sorry, I accept and appreciate your justified passion on the subject, just don't get the aggressive and dismissive tone. You're much, much better than that.

Mike#78.
Haha you too eh bro? Can't watch an injection on TV? Me neither.
But I didn't give a second thought as to whether to have the jab or not.
Personally I believe that if someone declines the vaccine without a valid medical reason then they should (talking UK here) have to pay for any Covid related treatment they require.
And if it can be traced to them they should have to pay for any one's treatment who's been infected by them.
It's all well and good to turn down the vaccine but then to expect to be treated free of charge by the NHS (without a valid medical reason for declining the vaccine) is nothing short of moronic.
So stick to your principles by all means but don't make others pay for them.

Michael # 76, Both have, as have I. One was part of the Astra Zeneca test group.

Should smokers pay if they get
cancer because they wont stop ?

Drinkers have to pay if they get cirroshis because they wont stop?

What about the biggest killer in the Uk?
Obese patients have to pay for treatment?

Danny,

You made a specific assertion (@64 on this new thread), accusing me of seeing something in a post that – according to you – "was not said". Yet it's there in black & white, referenced twice @35 above.

Do you have the humility to retract what you said as being incorrect? Or do we continue to try and read between the lines in seeking some deeper meaning here?

Thomas Richards, turns out I was correct. A more recent article than the one you posted says 93% of NHS frontline medical staff nationwide had been vaccinated as of February 28, so the percentage is certainly even higher now. And that's for ALL frontline staff, including receptionists and radiology techs and medical cleanup staff and the like. For doctors and nurses, the people actually treating patients, the vaccinations must be close to 100%.

The article said many of those yet unvaccinated were delaying the shots because they were pregnant or breastfeeding, or because they had previous allergic reactions to vaccines and wanted more data. (I was questioned about that three times yesterday.)

According to one doctor quoted in the article, most of the philosophical resistance to the shot is in London, and it's substantially among the black and South Asian staffers as a matter of mistrust, given how disproportionately the virus has impacted their communities. And he said he was successfully convincing them.

Overall, your philosophical opposition to the vaccine is shared by a lot of people... but almost nobody practicing medicine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56291564

Stephen @83,

Excellent. Please convey my thanks in appreciation for all they do.

My sarcastic response was mainly for Thomas Richards in respect of the minority of NHS and care home workers who are refusing to have jabs when offered, as this will obviously prolong the coronavirus pandemic.

I don't understand?

People are turning down a free of charge inoculation that offers protection against an illness that has killed millions?

Why?

Thoma s#84.

None of the examples you mention are infectious. None of them can be "avoided" with simple injections.

If I was an obese, alcoholic, heavy smoker and I turned down a vaccine that could as good as "cure" me, I wouldn't expect to be treated for nowt. I'd expect more deserving people to be prioritised.

Just my personal opinion. If you have the chance to not be a burden and decline it, pay your way.

Mike Gaynes,

"The article said many of those yet unvaccinated were delaying the shots because they were pregnant or breastfeeding,"

Are you saying doctors have health concerns about the safety of the vaccine on thier children?

It is utterly astounding, Mark, I agree.

But there are some on this thread who might be able to give you an answer. Fear of needles is the only one I've seen, but even that very valid fear was overcome in the interests of the greater good.

Sorry Michael, I am probably the stupid one here, but what assertion am I making here:

"Michael, like everyone, we don't really know you, so I am sure you are a top person. Not intelligent? Don't recall anyone saying that.
Genuinely, and I believe I speak for the vast, vast majority, in saying we appreciate the time and effort you and the team put into providing, editing, telling (me) off where appropriate to make ToffeeWeb what it is.

I know this is an emotional subject and as Jay (BRZ) called out, one that was started from a very loose throw away comment. It inevitably sparked debate and became politicised, which in itself will generate differences of opinion. Its like Brexit on steroids but I didn't really want to drop the Brexit bomb".

Mark #88.

Because they can, mate, because they can.

Brian 89,

The example you cite is likely suffering other issues, and, ironically, is a priority, being vulnerable.

Danny,

This bit:

"Not intelligent? Don't recall anyone saying that."

Brian #82, I get where you're coming from, but I would oppose that policy (not that it would be enforceable anyway), because of the point Thomas makes at #84. Many of our worst diseases are a direct result of (or aggravated by) our bad lifestyle choices. Sitting in judgement of who "deserves" treatment and who doesn't is a slippery slope morally.

It's also really foolish. We have that debate in the US about whether illegal immigrants should get free healthcare. We get occasional outbreaks of TB around the country from people who slip in from Mexico, don't seek treatment because they're afraid, and infect residents who aren't fully vaccinated.

Better just to treat everybody. Saves money in the long run.

Mark, Michael, I get that sentiment, I really do. My wife recently turned down treatment that potentially provides additional protection and cure against a disease that kills many more millions. That was her choice and I stand by her choice.

I totally am onside with your view by the way. I've properly thrown myself in the middle by trying to understand a different perspective than my own and see, or at least understand, the other view point.

Chris #94.

Chris, I honestly don't follow you there, mate. Not being funny, really.

On another tack. Thinking back some years to a trip I made with my wife we had various injections typhoid etc...before the trip. Trying to remember if those injections would have been compulsory before visiting certain countries. Anyone with a better memory than me (that'd be most) throw any light on that?

Michael,

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit."

Any chance of a non-sarcastic response to my earlier question asking were you serious when you suggested NHS workers were refusing vaccination so the pandemic can be spread so as to protect their employment

A genuine question to Thomas Richards and any other posters for that matter.

Why not? What is the main reason you don't feel it important to get the vaccination? I'm asking this genuinely and trying not to antagonise.

I haven't seen one rational intelligent answer to that question.

Of course you can always reply "Because I don't want to" or "I don't legally have to" but, for the sake of interesting debate, can we have an answer?

The pro-vaccine posters have put up lots of sound reasons for, I don't think I can add anything myself personally that hasn't already been said... well, maybe one.

I had my first vaccine recently (Pfizer). I never felt a scratch and absolutely no after-effects. Is it this that is worrying those who decline or something more fundamental? I am genuinely intrigued.

I remember about 20 years ago I went to India on holiday and had to have an injection for malaria, typhoid, cholera possibly. I had the injection gladly and don't remember even thinking about the "ethics" of having no choice in the matter.

There was no politics in that decision – more one of self-preservation, I suppose.

Thomas #90, of course they do. There's no data yet on whether the vaccine -- which fires up the immune system -- affects newborns or unborn babies whose immune systems have not yet developed. Babies less than a year old don't get the measles vaccine for just that reason.

So which are you? Pregnant or breastfeeding?

Brian,

I totally understand the concept of free will and totally agree with people who choose to exercise it. I'm just confused as to why people turn down something that's free and could save their life?

Not only their life but possibly their loved ones' also?

Billy #100.

Billy can you remember if the jabs were compulsory before being allowed to visit?

Mark #102.

You and me both, mate.

That was the reason for me posting in the first place Brent, to learn. I have been under the impression that a person can still get Covid after they've been vaccinated, so now it seems I'm getting told this is not true?

I got vaccinated, but the reason I wasn't 100% sure about it, was because I was under the impression that I could still catch Covid and therefore pass it on, but now I'm reading differently?

My greater concern right now is the suicide rate, I've just been for a little kick-around on Walton Hall Park Astroturf with the kids, and I think it's fantastic that they made a decision to keep the gates unlocked, because it was giving people a place to go exercise, and although not everyone will agree with this type of decision, I was told it was done mostly to protect people's mental health.

Kieran, I try to be nice mate, because I've never even spoke to many people on this website face to face. Michael is entitled to say anything he wants because it's his website, but if he spoke verbally to people like this in his everyday life, he must be a real proper hard-case!

Brian @103,

They used to be. I still have my British Airways Medical Service International Certificates of Vaccination card.

They would not let you on the plane to these god-forsaken places without it!

Another thing to come out of the covid panxemic is the wanton abandonment of the elderly in care homes and hospitals.

Illegall placing of DNR notices being placed on the beds of elderly is currently being investigated

Ton #105.

Having met you, mate, I can safely say I would never speak to you like that, not even from a great distance. 🤣.

Or your auld fella for that matter.

Brian and Mark, in the case of the minority communities, it's because after watching their own family and friends die of this pestilence disproportionately, they don't trust what the medical "establishment" says about the vaccine or anything else.

As to other folks... ummm.....

Why are you posting that, Thomas? Is it a reason not to have the vaccine?

I just asked my teenage son his thoughts. Apparently the government are putting microchips in the jabs to track us.
He doesn't believe it and is having his own jab soon (medical reasons) but that's what his mates think.

The irony of the BAME thing has my jaw hitting the floor.

So they are X-times more vulnerable to Covid-19? And yet they are the majority refusing the free vaccine offered to help protect them?!?

I despair sometimes at the utter stupidity.

Tony #105 that's a good post. I can understand the uncertainty about all things to do with Covid. So much isn't black and white. So much of our understanding is developing as we go.

And a great point about mental health. That's another point of tension in deciding when to loosen the "lockdown" – too soon and we might lose control of Covid infections, but the longer we limit social interaction the greater the other health problems – ie, mental health.

Michael #106.

Thanks for that, Michael. So I guess having the Covid vaccine (with regard to international travel) is no different to those jabs?

I wonder how many wouldn't go to those countries because they wouldn't have the appropriate jabs?

Though, in the case of the typhoid jab, I'd think twice because it knocked me on my arse for days and I couldn't move my arm for a week without extreme pain.

You threw me, Michael. Given we are using the written word and lack of context that brings, when you used quote marks to quote "was not said", I couldn't see that. I assume you mean where I said I "don't recall anyone saying that".

I still don't see anyone saying you are not intelligent enough. I see "someone more intelligent than you". A play with words maybe but is interpreting that not reading between the lines to come up with you interpreting it as you being not intelligent enough?

Anyway, I have no beef with you, Michael, nor a desire to go into an argument with someone I mainly agree with. On this (not entirely) and many other things. Personally, I'll leave this one here. Apologies if I riled you. No need for the rather unnecessary fire from the hip belittlement on your part. As I said previously, you are better than that. Much better.

Tony #105, the vaccine effectiveness ranges from 96% (for the two-shot regimens) down to 74% (for the one-shot vaccine), so yes, it's possible to get vaccinated and still catch COVID. But the importance of the vaccine is that it's virtually 100% effective against getting seriously ill. A few people do catch the bug after getting the shot, but nobody gets sick enough to wind up in the hospital. That's huge right there.

So get the jab, my friend. Please.

Tony@105,

You're entitled to be a bit confused. If the vaccination is described as 90% effective, does that mean that 10% of the recipients are not covered due to their ineffective immune system etc? I'm not sure exactly what that means. But I had my jab weeks ago as soon as I could. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't.

Michael, yes the irony is staggering. I despair at times.

Brian,

I know you were serious mate. My point was that someone with only one of the issues you mentioned could be suffering from health issues like Diabetes for example. The irony is that would make that person deemed vulnerable and likely to be a priority for getting the vaccine..

Tony, have a look here mate.

AZD1222 US Phase III primary analysis confirms safety and efficacy

Michael @110,

You first.

I wonder if it has occurred to anybody that it might be insurance companies who have the final word on this? Would you offer insurance to any company whose staff might cause illness or death to the customers because they were employing people who were potentially lethal?

I confess I'm a bit hard line on this after the third funeral of a friend this month who should be alive right now (one of them fit and his mid-thirties).

Brian #120, POW!

"100% efficacy against severe or critical disease and hospitalisation"

That's what matters most.

Ron #122, deepest condolences, and yes, at least in the US that may be a factor in some employers telling their employees to either get the shot or find another job.

Chris #119.

Ah... got you now, mate, thanks for that! 👍

That, Mike Gaynes, is the most important factor. It stops people from getting seriously ill. The aim (not initially anyway) isn't to eradicate, but to reduce the lethality.

It isn't going away any time soon, but we protect the vulnerable, we contain, cope and deal with it, like we have learned to with others.

Ron #122.

Condolences, Ron. Your post makes me wonder how someone who declines the vaccine (without a valid medical reason) would feel if they got Covid, passed it on to a young fit member of their family, and watched that person die from the virus?
That's the bit I can't fathom for the life of me.

Or is it, to them, a case of "That'll never happen"?

Brian Williams,

Sorry, just noticed your query. I'm 100% sure, like Michael says, it gave you a stamp or certificate to allow you to travel. So you weren't getting on the plane for whatever reason, marriage, holiday, work, a dying relative without the jab.

Furthermore, I'm sure I had to pay for it, again I done this without complaint.

I'm still waiting patiently for a reply or reason why someone would refuse the offer of a vaccine?

With 100% efficacy against severe or critical disease and hospitalisation, you're all safe.

You can get the injection and that's you sorted. No need to worry about where you walk or who you meet. You have the 100% safety barrier around you.

Don't concern yourself with who is having it, who is not having it. You're safe.

Tony A.

Very misleading advice on a daily basis, mate. I had Covid last year and was told I would be immune. That advice is subject to change from the incompetents, of course.

Vaccines used to be compulsory. I found court records of one of my Irish forbears being arrested and fined for not getting smallpox vaccine for himself and his kids in the 1800s.

All bar one of his family died young so it didn't work out too well financially or health-wise, although he himself was murdered, probably by an RS I assume, or someone who was tired of him spreading smallpox about.

Michael @106, I get that. Likewise in the military we had to be vaccinated with the "cocktail" I described earlier before deploying to certain geographical areas. There was no choice and you had to have it; no question, just do it.

I think coming from a profession and environment where it is the norm, it is easy to expect everyone to accept it. But I've learned in my civilian life that people need convincing when it is not normal for them. I can understand that. I'd just rather explain it to them and convince them rather than call them stupid.

Tony,

You're getting some great advice and guidance from some real friends on here, and I think that's wonderful.

I'm still curious how you came to believe what you've written above. Where did you see it? Is it on the Web? Facebook? Television? Is it what your kids are telling you?

Genuinely curious.

I've had my two vaccinations, glad to get them, would have paid for them to be honest. I didn't have to think about getting them.

Mike Gaynes (@116) explains the whole process the way I understood why it was imperative, for me and my wife, to get vaccinated as quick as we could.

My wife had caught pneumonia in December, was in hospital for a week, so had some doubts about getting the jab the same time as me – not the jab but because she had pneumonia and wasn't fully recovered from it. She is now anxious to get her second jab.

Phew thank your god there, Dave.

I really thought for a moment that you and your religious proclivities might have been the sauce of your Tony's misinformation.

Michael

I think Tony may be thinking about the Johnson vaccine. It's 65 percent effective but 100 percent effective against severe cases meaning 35 percent could get mild or asymptomatic cases and unknowingly spread it about. But I wouldn't see that increasing cases unless the 35 percent all went somewhere where no-one was vaccinated and spread it about.

Tony,

I believe that the data shows that one vaccination offers about 75% protection, rising to about 80% for two. Less people are now getting a bad infection so the numbers of deaths and hospitalisation have dropped accordingly. Even old farts like me.

As a comparison, the flu jab offers about 60% protection apparently.

As per Mike (#116), I seem to recall a report that stated that vaccination would not stop you catching or transmitting the virus but would lessen the effects and therefore the likelihood of death.

As for not being able to make vaccination compulsory, I'm fairly sure that when I got a passport in 1972, vaccinations for smallpox and cholera were compulsory and possibly yellow fever depending on your destinatio,n but I suppose it would require an Act of Parliament to make it so.

Let's also not forget that Smallpox was defeated but it took nearly 200 years. That's why we shouldn't on one hand be complacent but on the other think we cannot get back to living a normal life. Vaccination is key to that.

Going to say it, considering how emotive this subject can be and also that we come on here to talk all things Everton, this has generally been a very lively yet very interesting discussion without getting out of order.

Thomas Richards @99

You threw the famous "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" at Michael?

I was going to add that the next line is" but the highest form of intelligence"

Then I saw your post at 128 and thought, hmmm maybe not.

There are many fair enough arguments about anyone's right to refuse invasive treatments. Also, legitimate concerns about individual choice.

Still, I say to anyone reading this, please, please get the vaccine.

My late father's youngest sister and my late mother's youngest sister both died of Covid. They were elderly and lived full lives. They were wonderful women and did not deserve the lonely frightening end they had. This is no mild flu.

Seriously, Michael, I gave up on reading much about Covid a long time ago. I still read little bits, like “Get the vaccine” but it might not be so strong against new strains, but my own thoughts just before I stopped reading was that there was such a difference of opinion between a lot of the scientists that it felt like they'd put Everton and Liverpool fans in the same room.

Mike G, has explained a bit more, but I honestly don't understand why people get annoyed about other people not getting the vaccine if, once they've received the vaccine yourself, it should make them relatively safe.

If people don't get the vaccine and die then, in your own words, Michael, just fuck them, especially when they tell us that Covid is something we are going to have to learn to live with now.

Danny #137 "Going to say it, considering how emotive this subject can be and also that we come on here to talk all things Everton, this has generally been a very lively yet very interesting discussion without getting out of order."

I think we self-moderate pretty well, Danny. When needed, the Referees / Moderators step in to break us up ("Break", "Touch Gloves"...). Occasionally they even throw a few telegraphed punches themselves! Now, what boxing ring would you see that in!

Billy Roberts,

Your prerogative. Thanks for sharing that.

What did you consider to be the fault with the content?

How I wish we could correct the multitude of spelling and grammatical errors on this site. Brown "source" indeed.

Thomas,

I'm still not sure what your reasons are for refusing the vaccine.

I have sympathy with those who would object to it becoming compulsory – purely on philosophical grounds – but I remain baffled why anyone intelligent and well-informed would refuse it. In my view, it is socially irresponsible.

Care home staff and NHS staff who refuse it completely baffle me. The frontline workers I know and epidemiologists I work with are utterly exasperated by this stance. It makes no sense to me at all. But, unless I've missed it, you haven't really put your case forward.

Thomas @143

If you are being sincere, you are welcome.
If you are being sarcastic? Then maybe the brown "source" you're having is giving you mental indigestion.

If you were told that having had Covid gave you 100% immunity, then you were misled. Maybe they were one of the 25% NHS staff who are declining the jab?

Terry - it's could of, should of and would of that bug me!

And my in-laws are upset with me because I commented on the use of “draws” for cupboard drawers.

I'm still waiting for what you thought was incorrect in my post, Billy.

At 80 years old with diabetes that forces me to inject myself 4 times a day, and being stuck in the house for days while people go on holiday and come back and spread Covid-19 while away, I am due my vaccination on April 1st and, even if it is All Fools Day, I would be stupid to turn it down.

I guess Thomas is still working and going out for a meal and to the pub for a pint if you find one open. People who, unless they are allergic to vaccinations, should realize they are not immune to this infection and, if contracting it, could pass it onto someone else who may die, and I hope they could live with that.

Bill,

Congratulations on reaching 80. Made of good stock obviously. All the best, mate.

I've learned a lot, I'm going to start reading a bit more on this subject now to try and get a bit more up to date, even though quite a lot of the way this pandemic has been dealt with, really doesn't sit pretty with me.

Barry R, made the most sense when he told us about the 82-year-old who would have died if they hadn't been vaccinated, and I'm glad Danny and even “Brent! can eventually understand me”, even if I can't blame the written word, because I often have the same problem making myself understood to others verbally.

Please take on board Danny's take, Michael, because although I do think you talk a lot of shite, it's also obvious you are a lot more intelligent than most of us, mate!

Manners make the man, and I got that Brian W, but like your good self, I always think that laughter is the best medicine mate, especially over a pint, which hopefully won't be long now, please God.

Michael (133),

No nothing to do with my religion, in fact if every organisation was as careful as the two churches I have attended, during the last twelve months, about all the social issues in keeping this virus at bay, then there would be quite a lot less to worry about. They have been very strict, in a quiet way, keeping to all the rules.

Thomas @148,

I'm still waiting for an answer to my post at 100, over to you.

Maybe when you start becoming clearer with your opinions in regard to declining the jab, I will start understanding them and will answer without misinterpretation, if that is what is happening here.

"Even Brent! can eventually understand me".

I'm watching you, Abrahams!

Talk about coincidence, the BBC are reporting Boris Johnson shouting anti-vaxxers should be injected in the nob.

Boris Johnson fury at anti-vaxxers

Very funny, Barry!

Michael #87, apologies if I misunderstood your comments. It is a very, very sore point within the family.

On a different note, I worked in several countries in East Africa over the last decade, you were not allowed entry to Uganda without a valid immunisation certificate for yellow fever. I still have mine – a little yellow book with all my jabs, boosters etc noted.

Does it induce swelling, Barry?

Thomas #150,

Thank you, of course I am from good stock – I am an Evertonian, have been from the early 50s, and if I can survive that, I should make the century. I doubt if I will get a telegram from the Queen. See you at the new stadium.

More than welcome, Bill. I'll look forward to that.

I haven't reached the stage of marching with the "anti vaxxers".

Bill.

I would prefer to wait, see how it goes before I consider getting a vaccine. The reports of the efficacy are very contradictory. Conflicting advice dependant on what scientific body you listen to. If it is science, there can be no contradiction surely.

I haven't taken any vaccine for flu historically. In my own case, I will wait for a while. I had covid and am still covered by the advice I got re a period of immunity afterwards.

Nothing against anyone using their own individual choice. All the best mate

I think that a lot of people on here have already eloquently explained why everyone who can should have the jab.

Those who refuse for no valid reason other than they don't want it are selfish. They want all the rights of being a member of a free society with none of the responsibilities that go along with it. Ironically, they also directly benefit from everyone else getting the jab as it protects them. It is shithousery of the highest order

I got the jab for two reasons:

1. It protects me;

2. The more people who have it, the more chance of the virus burning itself out as it becomes a mild illness with nowhere to go. This will help protects the vulnerable in society who can't have the jab. Note the emphasis on “can't” rather than “won't”.

So, if you want your freedoms, then accept that they come at a cost. If the cost of refusing the jab is that you can't go on holiday – that's your choice. If the cost of not having the jab is that you can't go to the pub – that's your choice. If the cost of not having the jab is that you can't go and watch Everton – that's your choice. But it's not the choice of the vulnerable members of society to be put at greater risk because of your ego and your pig-headedness.

That's an interesting reply, Thomas. I can just about understand someone being cautious if they mistrust the science. It's just maddening that anyone would mistrust it. It's a crying shame that the government and, in particular, the media have contributed to this mistrust.

But, as a scientist, all I can say is that the scientific papers, the real science, provide very strong evidence to support the idea that a vaccine will reduce your chance of infection and reduce spread.

Different bodies disagree about the numbers, but the main message in the scientific community is loud and clear. Unfortunately, you are wrong to suggest that with science there can be no uncertainty... quite the opposite. Most science is based on probability. The balance of evidence for/against. Few things are 'proven', only supported.

ps: This maybe of interest. Apologies if not.

Politicians must dial down the rhetoric over COVID vaccines

Thomas @160,

I'm not sure if the second part of your post was a reply to me but I have read it and accepted your reasoning anyway.

I don't see any contradictions from reliable media sources in regard to the vaccination effectiveness, none at all. It is universally accepted that having the vaccination stops you developing severe symptoms and also stops the spread, this also stops the virus's ability to mutate.

So, in effect, the opposite of a vicious circle.

I admire your honesty, Thomas, and your willingness to stand your ground; I just don't agree on about 90% of what you're saying – unlike our Friday debate with Barry "Half-man, half-biscuit" Rathbone on Joe Anderson and also our momentous stadium news
Phewww... what a weekend on TW!!
Keep it up, everyone.

Bill #149, as one "shooter" to another (5x for me), congrats on making 80, congrats on the upcoming vaccine and congrats on your always superb outlook on things.

Thanks for posting that article, Stuart, and 100% reinforcement of your comments regarding the 'science'.

It's really unfortunate that, throughout this pandemic, the government has been allowed to hide its bumbling incompetence behind "following the science" – and thus making science the scapegoat for a series of bad decisions that were entirely political.

How do you feel now about not "canceling Christmas", Boris???

Maybe that's the context for Tony's statement that "This is where it becomes political." – "What the hell is he on about now?" I thought.

There should be no political angle (in the UK at least) regarding getting the jab. They are making it freely available to everyone. There is no microchip.

But of course, if you already harbour a lingering distrust of the (Tory) government for a myriad of other probably unrelated reasons, it might make your socialist consciences a little uneasy in accepting a free panacea from – of all people – the ultra capitalist Big Pharma!!!

And don't you realise they can already track you just fine, thanks to your mobile phone???

Brent, we all need our heads banging together occasionally! Glad to be in good company on here.

Chris 161,

"They want all the rights of being a member of a free society."

A free society does not impose compulsory vaccination. You carry on doing as you're told.

Stuart.

The man in the street is being fed contradictory statements on a daily basis. A shambles. Thanks for your input though, appreciated.

Billy Roberts,

Similar rate for me in agreeing with your posts. That's the beauty of debate.

I can't say that was my angle Michael (once Thomas posted what he did @11, this became inevitable imo) but that was exactly why I stopped reading about Covid in the first place, because it became very political. But now you could also argue that the government is dealing with things a lot better, simply because they have found a proper plan.

Billy #164 "half man, half biscuit"! A cracker, if I may say!

I think the best part of this thread is that Jay Wood got this whole ball rolling by tossing that "chaos grenade" in the first post... and then was never heard from again.

As for me, I'm just lying low, waiting for my turn. Word is that all adults in California will be eligible by April 15. Fingers crossed.

Brings back memories of the Trumpton Riots, Brent.

Bill, there is a world of difference in one letter, 's'.

Trust me. Jay WoodS is as diametrically opposed to Jay Wood (no 's') on pretty much 'Life, the Universe and Everything'.

Good memories, I think, Andy. Not sure. Indie-cisive, me.

Sorry Jay - I knew the original poster wasn't you, but isn't there a second, non-Brazil based Jay Wood, in addition to this sorry Jay Woods character? It's easy to get mixed up, LOL.

Bill, perfectly understandable. A few years back when he first appeared on TW there was a LOT of confusion and I was frequently erroneously associated with his utterances.

To avoid this, editor Lyndon himself took the initiative to clearly distinguishing between us by appending (BRZ) to my Jay Wood name. Jay WoodS being based in Latvia gained the appendage (LAT).

He disappeared for a while after (yet another) memorable polemic he provoked on a thread, expressing some extremely fundamental religious views.

On his return, he said he created a new account minus the (LAT) appendage.

I think it's fair to say my doppelganger and I inhabit completely alternative worlds across the board.

They are making it freely available to everyone. There is no microchip.
Michael is this the microchip that would allow us to be tracked internationally, to show where we shopped, where we drove within our own country, keep track of our medical history, and keep track of any criminal record we may have?
Because if the powers that be had easy access to all that information that would be awful!

Thomas Richards.
No problem mate, we differ massively but we are big boys and we can get over any slights.
I do think we have a lot in common, being Evertonians from Liverpool who support Labour being a big one !!!!
Anyway, it's great to debate.

My wife and I have both received the two Moderna shots at a Safeway Pharmacy of all places. Yesterday we ate outside at a Japanese restaurant for the first time in year. Last time we ate out was before the Sting show in San Francisco in March 2020. Now we're waiting for 5 of our 6 adult children to get the vaccination which will be available April 15th.

Totally empathize with you Andy C. My wife's father contracted the Covid 19 virus last year and died within a week in the hospital with no family with him. There were no Last Rites or funeral. He had been in a Long Term Care Facility in South Carolina when he contracted the virus. The facility had stopped allowing visitors several months before, but sadly he got the virus. He was a great guy and is sorely missed.

Jay Wood ( BRZ)
I think we have all got to the point were we don't need the distinction, we just read the post and then we think wtf.?.
Then we know it's not from you.
Ps. One day I will find the origin of the popularity of the name Everton in South America and the West Indies.

Paul Smith @ 54; Exactly. You're free to be a 'fool' if you want...talk and think shite...and the line sort of gets drawn when you're being a 'bloody fool'...like say walking on the railway lines. When you become a 'Dangerous Fool'. endangering others and not just yourself - all bets are off

Billy @ 141.

'One day I will find the origin of the popularity of the name Everton in South America and the West Indies.'

I sincerely hope you can Billy. And that you have better luck than me!

Intrigued by the question I've even approached a University Genealogist here in Brazil.

I wasn't impressed. His reply? 'Maybe the name Everton sounds beautiful to the ears of Brazilians.'

Deeply scientific and well researched it wasn't!

I think the best way to distinguish between Jay Wood and Jay Woods is to reflect as we did (and we all we know we did, indeed we had to), twenty-something years ago, on the acceptability of abusing or not the name of the distinguished German midfielder Kuntz. He couldn't help it and nor, it seems, can our man in Latvia.

A free society does not impose compulsory (fill in as required)..."

Has anyone told Julian Assange?,"A free society does not impose compulsory (fill in as required)..."
Has anyone told Julian Assange?,,michael.kenrick@gmail.com,1,05:41:16,,49.196.3.176,ok,17201,03/29/2021 05:41:16,alanthompson,reader,,,no 1143085,40609,toffeeweb,29/03/2021,Alan J Thompson,thommoat31@bigpond.com,"Steavey (#38); I can't think of a single reason for Fifa being the size it is or wielding the sort of power it does. At best, it should be a forum for international Football Associations to discuss matters and disseminate information. I can't imagine how it was allowed to control so much finance and to fall into the hands of so self-serving officials.

But than again, I've always had a distrust of organizations that are based where the laws and taxes favour them and without any apparent oversight.

From the perspective of distance, this pandemic has been used and abused in many countries as a political weapon. The USA stands out for its bleach killer ex-president whose supporters still praise him to the hills for the magnificent response to Operation Warp Speed he initiated. What a load of crap.

But what leaders like Trump do is undermine the trust and truth of others for their own benefit or to cover their own incompetent handling of the crisis. "So what?" I hear you say... Well, without trust, there is no responsibility, personal or collective.

Misinformation is ripe, but what price is collective responsibility? If you know you can prevent even one death or infection of others by having the vaccine, why would you elect not to?

What is the reason behind the decision to refuse something that can only help save your own and others' lives? Fear? Trust? Truth? Selfishness? Lack of collective responsibility?

I would love people to qualify their decision, not for ridicule but my own understanding behind free choice.

Late to this thread and only up to post 50 so it might already have been said.

Michael. I have been in agreement with pretty much all your comments but at this point (post #50) I think you have put one foot firmly into the absurd conspiracy theory camp.

Job security? Do me a favour...!

Having said that - if the 25% figure is correct, I have no plausible theory of my own worth expounding.

Jay

I watched a programme last nigh were Michael Palin toured certain parts of Brazil, including Belo Horizonte and obviously Rio, but he also met up with Tim Vickery who reports on Talksport. I always find it interesting listening to Tim and his knowledge of South American players is second to none.

But being a football fan, I was really interested when they went inside Flumenese's ground, the entrance and the foyer looked great but the ground seemed very small capacity-wise. Have you been there... and is it as small as it looked on TV?

There is no microchip."

I wish you'd posted that before I had my left shoulder amputated!
,"There is no microchip."
I wish you'd posted that before I had my left shoulder amputated!
,,michael.kenrick@gmail.com,1,10:32:26,,92.16.173.191,ok,18777,03/29/2021 10:32:26,markmurphy,reader,,,no 1143098,40611,toffeeweb,29/03/2021,Alan McGuffog,alanmcguff@tiscali.co.uk," Sitting out al fresco
Pissing off UNESCO

Chris, we salute you!

Kim #188.

I believe Michael may have been purposely facetious there. I don't believe you should take what he posted literally.

That's the thing with the written word it's sometimes difficult to convey the "actual" meaning because you can't here someone's voice incredulously asking:

What other reason could there be?

Christine,

I would imagine this is an issue of principle. Certain people would object to living in a society where, if a majority decides upon a particular course of action, it becomes morally acceptable to impose pressure to impose that will upon the whole group. If we whittle down the role free thinkers have in our society, there is an argument that we all lose something precious.

There may be various reasons somebody does not want to have the vaccine (eg, they are not convinced by the science, or they are worried about its novelty). But do we want to end up in a society where the state has a role which says to the individual "Right, you selfish bastard, you won't have the vaccine. Fine! You can forget about foreign holidays, the pub. and the theatre for the rest of your life.'

I've had the vaccine, but I definitely don't want to live in a society where whoever runs the state can have such an impact on my life (and that is even if I feel very frustrated with people choosing not to have the jab).

At the end of the day, that is the price paid to live in a free society. Now, people can say, "What about the impact your selfishness may have on others?" and that's true, but I still wouldn't want the state to act in such a crushing manner, I think it would be disastrous to our way of life.

Much better to make the arguments, and put your faith in being able to carry the day by the power of your argument, rather than any follow-up threats of coercion.

Brilliant post.

Turn a global vaccination programme into a philosophical and/or political argument, then run to the state for treatment when you realise you've only gone and caught the virus! And, as an added bonus, you can infect a few people into the bargain.

First world hubris perhaps.

"If they told you to put your hand in the fire, would you do it without asking a question?"

A saying my ma used often. Good common sense.

My mum used to say that to me too ..... when I was seven.

Taking foreign holidays will most likely be determined by the destination - many countries will require proof of vaccination before allowing entry.

You didn't take any notice then, Brian?

Thomas, of course I did mate, but she omitted "without asking a question" as I'm sure your mum did too. ;-)

It's a bit of an overly simplistic example to use with regard to the subject in question, IMO.

I'm not against free thinkers and I don't agree with compulsory vaccination. I just believe, if you choose not to have the vaccination (without a valid medical reason), then you have to accept the measures put in place to protect the majority and you have to accept being treated somewhat differently.

Just an analogy Brian.

I think it is fair to find out as much as you can before taking a major decision like this mate.

I'm not one of the people protesting on marches. Just a regular Joe Public.

Of course anyone who believes what they are told without question are welcome to take it. I wish them nothing but the best.

I think it is fair to find out as much as you can before taking a major decision like this mate.

I agree 100% with that mate.

Having already literally put my life in the hands of medical experts some 10 years ago, now I suppose I trust the science and the medical profession more than some might.

👍 Good to see your recovery from the illness Brian.

All the best mate

You too mate.

These anti-vaxers drive me crazy. Such ignorance beggers belief. Unless there are medical reasons for not being vaccinated, it is the duty of everyone to protect others as well as themselves. This should not even be a debate.

I'm all for vaccination 'passports'. If you refuse the jabs, you can stay home, well away from the rest who have the brain-power to understand the evidence.

I'm still wondering what the concern is from the anti-vax side of this argument. What bad thing are people on this side of the debate worried will happen if they get a jab?

All I can glean from this thread is that there's an MP who is scared of needles and a group of teenagers who believe they are being micro-chipped.

It's not just ignorance – it's the "little bit of knowledge" syndrome, provided by our friend the Nettyweb.

I was an audiologist, working with children. Back in the day, one of the main reasons for children being born deaf was mothers contracting measles, rubella, and the like in pregnancy. They then developed the MMR jab and, in my working life this aetiology almost disappeared. Less children born profoundly deaf. Result! You might think.

Then some tosser proclaimed that MMR caused autism. Total feckin' horseshit.

But the "I know best" brigade began campaigning against the jab. I've had heated discussions even within my own family about this.

I know I'm right, by the way, because the little voices coming out of my microwave oven agree with me.

Robert,

I believe it plays on what are, on the surface, reasonable 'fears' – just as with the despicable autism link claimed by the now thoroughly disgraced Andrew Wakefield.

The shocking thing is the number of apparently qualified medical people in the anti-vaxxer camp. If anyone is at-all susceptible to fear about the jab, then they can easily find so-called 'professionals' who will feed their fears and paranoia.

It's the equivalent for me of having qualified geologists denying evolution and supporting the Young Earth nonsense.

Brian #202, you da man!

(as always)

"If they told you to put your hand in the fire, would you do it without asking a question?"

No – I'd ask, what if I do and she'd answer it will burn and maim you for life.

When I had my jab, I asked them what would happen if I didn't and they told me I could possibly die.

What if I do have the jab? You'll get a sore arm.

So I had the jab and got a sore arm but I'm not dead yet.

I'm still not seeing any good reason for not having the jab except “I don't want to and you can't make me.”

Why not – what's wrong with having a free jab that could save yours and others lives?

Michael "I believe it plays on what are, on the surface, reasonable 'fears'".

That's the perfect summary of things for me. I have no doubts at all that people posting here, to express their doubts about the vaccine, are being genuine and reasonable.

I also have no doubts that, for whatever reason, there are people who started unfounded rumours about the vaccine (just as some did about MMR, and some did about mobile-phone masts causing Covid, etc). People are then confronted by two sets of mutually-exclusive messages. With, unfortunately, both messages getting more or less equal media coverage ("in the interest of balance" - another issue), how does one decide?

So I can see the rationale for being cautious when deciding whether to have the jab. I don't agree with the conclusion – but I can see how perhaps things play out.

ANARCHY RULES,OK!

What do you mean; "No!"?

Mark M

"So I had the jab and got a sore arm but I'm not dead yet."
I havent had the jab. Neither am I 😁

I've yet to see a reasonable argument for not having the jab. ("I don't want to" isn't reasonable to me, it's not just about you.)

Most of it seems to be Kevin the Teenager foot-stamping stuff to me.

If Andrew Wakefield had kept his fraudulent opinions to himself, then we wouldn't have nearly as many anti-vaxxers as we have today.

Kevin Molloy,

I too am not comfortable in straying into that territory. Whether I agree with an individual or group's position or not, we live in a society that is governed through consent of the population, rather than one in which the population are ruled by dictators.

Yes, in times of emergency, the powers that be can exercise special measures to implement things, but it should be a last resort to force people against their will.

The trick is to convince, win minds and have people willingly consent. As long as the majority do, the aim is achieved. The aim in these early days of a pandemic being not to eradicate, but to reduce the lethality and not overwhelm the health service. That's my unqualified view and opinion.

Consent wins the day. As I have said earlier here, my wife has had hers already, my son will do so soon for work reasons and I will wait until I get the call and most of the population will. But I will not condemn or smear someone who for their own reasons chooses not to.

Mike #210.

Cheers my bro!

In this thread, some have alluded to the 'politics' of the pandemic and 'media hysteria' as contributory factors that influence their opinions on Covid-19.

Firstly, the politics. Sadly, I am extremely well-placed to know how disastrous and impactful it is to reside in a country governed by a denialist. I could put up a LOOOONG list of just why, under Bolsonaro, Brazil continues to be the epicentre of the pandemic.

Suffice to say Brazil is living (and dying) proof that the herd mentality some have promoted – ‘just carry on as normal' – is NOT the solution.

Things looked to be turning a corner backend of October with daily cases around ‘only' the 20,000 mark and deaths below 300 a day. People relaxed. Xmas, New Year and Carnival in February (much curtailed) passed. And within 2-3 weeks of each, daily cases and mortality rates exploded.

We hit 150,000 deaths on October 10. It took us 89 days to hit 200,000 on January 7. 48 days to hit 250,000 on February 24. Last week we hit 300,000 in just 28 days on March 24. Our moving 15-day average has gone from less than 300 daily deaths to consistently 10 times that – 3,000+ – for nearly a full month now.

Since early October, when daily cases averaged around 20-25k, day after day after day, we now have 80-90k daily cases. Fast forward 2-3 weeks and what impact will that have on Brazil's mortality rates d'ya reckon?

All the more so that ICUs in many states are at 90%+ capacity, some 100%+ as many as 600-700 people waiting for a unit to become available. People are dying sat in chairs in hospital corridors. In ambulances at hospital doors. At home, unattended. With the national R rate up to 1.23 and the vaccination program painfully slow, things ain't changing around any time soon.

Uncontrolled, in the same time period the virus has now mutated into THREE potent variations. P1 from Manaus. P2 from Rio. N9 possibly from Sao Paulo.

It didn't need to be this way. There are far more success stories around the globe than failures, IF the right policies are followed at the correct time. These include:

1) Preparedness. South Korea is an outstanding example of having policies, resources and investment in place to deal with an inevitable pandemic. The government was moved to do so following the lesser pandemic of the 2015 Mers outbreak. It enabled South Korea to flatten the epidemic curve quickly, without closing businesses or implementing stricter stay-at-home restrictions nationally.

By contrast, the likes of the UK and the US in very recent years disinvested in their own ‘epidemic preparation' programs and were ill-prepared for this pandemic and had to play catch-up

2) Test, track and trace. Most SE Asia countries IMMEDIATELY started this in January of last year. Once again, South Korea is a shining light in this. A similar population to the UK, to date it has a total of 1,700 Covid-19 deaths. The UK has 126,000. A contract worth £108 million was awarded without due process to ‘friends' of the Tory party for a test and tracking system which is still not working.

3) Quarantine Support. The state of Kerala in India has a population of 35 million. In March last year, it had one of the world's highest Covid-19 cases. It is now one of the lowest. They mobilised 30,000 social-health workers to ensure people isolated at home when necessary by helping with such mundane tasks as shopping and providing medicine for households. This initiative stopped the virus spreading and spared hospitals from being overwhelmed. In too many countries such a safety network simply does not exist.

4) Protecting the elderly. Germany recognized early the need to protect the elderly, particularly in care homes. By doing so that saved local hospitals from being overwhelmed. The death rates in care homes for the elderly in the likes of the UK and the US shame them. They were grossly neglected and left unprotected.

5) Vaccination. The UK has done well on this, as has the likes of Israel and the US. However, the inequality of delivering vaccinations globally is a concern. THIS VIRUS DOESN'T MOVE! WE move IT! Unless and until vaccination is more widespread than it is, then international trade and travel remains high risk. A roll of the dice.

Whilst politicians have ‘politicised' the pandemic to promote themselves and attack the opposition, that should be of no interest IMO to those in this thread who have made the association of politics to Covid-19. What you should be questioning is the competence of sitting governments to deal with the pandemic. And on the five listed points you can see who and where the success stories are. And who and where the failures are.

On the question of ‘media hysteria', here in Brazil all media – TV, radio, print – have been outstanding, relentlessly holding the government to account. Ensuring the TRUE mortality and case numbers were being reported when the government tried to suppress them.

There is an ABUNDANCE of high quality and well-qualified information available. It is not hard to find. If you are going to rely on tabloids, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube for your information, then be prepared to be misled and misinformed.

I still await anyone – anyone at all – to make a cogent convincing case and justification as to why you would not vaccinate other than on extreme medical grounds, such as severe allergic reaction.

Danny, 215

Brilliant post.

Danny #216, yes, but with a qualification -- as long as they stay home, wear a mask in public and otherwise endeavor to keep others safe.

There have been many tragic examples here of eagerly COVID-defiant, maskless motorcycle rallies and church services and big family events producing outbreaks that caused hundreds of cases and multiple deaths. And in every such example, deaths occurred among people who didn't attend the event but instead got the virus from somebody who did, or contacted somebody else who did. Contact tracing followed some outbreaks through four or five generations of infections.

Those people, the ones who claim vaccines and masks infringe on their rights but won't protect others, I will condemn and smear in the strongest possible terms. And I wouldn't want to tell someone who has lost a loved one to others' intransigence that "consent wins the day"... because sometimes it doesn't.

There is no current scientific or medical evidence that vaccinated people can not transmit the virus. In line with the perceived evidence, people getting the vaccination are covering their own potential health problems. Good luck to them.

But please don't pass yourselves off as saviours of the elderly and vulnerable by being vaccinated. That is clearly not the factual situation.

Nothing against anyone who decides to be vaccinated, I wish you the very best. A little less moralising would be good please.

Mike,

We've been telling our young to do that now for over a year, and to be fair they have mainly stuck to it. But it's just about to become untenable in my view (and I'm referring to the UK).

We've now vaccinated the vulnerable, and held down life on this planet in suspended animation for a year. But we've got the vaccine, it's working, we now need to get back to life.

And if a variant comes along that knackers it, we don't go back to this, we take our chances and let people make their own determinations of what is appropriate.

That's fair, Mike. It's your view and your right to it. I guess either through consent or enforcement you will never hit or convince100% though. With consent, there will be those who chose not too, more often than not, a minority. With enforcement, you will breed resistance and still not achieve compliance in my view and experience of history; if anything you breed more resistance to the establishment. I'm a believer in convince, educate and assure people; then the majority will follow willingly.

Not sure what went on in the US, but it was politicised to the point of dividing society. Whilst we may debate and sometimes shout on here and in the UK, in the main, most have consented and complied with the measures, such as mask-wearing, whether they agree or not. From what I've seen anyway.

Jay (BRZ), as it was I, sir, who called the media hysteria phrase, I would add that it hasn't influenced my view or opinion, I'm just downright fed-up and frustrated with it. I cannot watch the BBC anymore. The SE Asian countries clearly are better at this through experience and we can / should learn from them.

Germany I thought was a beacon in comparable European terms but seem to now be struggling? My first trip abroad was pencilled in for Germany but I'm less optimistic now.

There has been talk of 'principles' and now 'moralising' on this thread.

I don't see anyone in this thread justifying their refusal to be vaccinated on 'principled' grounds at all. I don't see such refusniks making a cogent convincing case and justification as to why they would not vaccinate beyond 'I don't want to'.

Equally, I don't see any extreme 'moralising' from anybody towards those refusing to vaccinate. Bewilderment, yes. Questioning, yes.

But as yet, no answers from the refusniks. No clarification. Just obtuse deflection.

Thomas #221: "There is no current scientific or medical evidence that vaccinated people can not transmit the virus."

You are incorrect. That is misinformation. In fact there is significant (albeit preliminary) evidence, and it is continuing to grow.

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer

"...the analysis found a vaccine effectiveness of 94% against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections."

https://www.verywellhealth.com/pfizer-vaccine-prevents-covid-transmission-5116193

https://www.authorea.com/users/332778/articles/509881-single-dose-bnt162b2-vaccine-protects-against-asymptomatic-sars-cov-2-infection?access_token=-hDTQsMUXcCPSpdZV_Lmpg

https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/03/04/vaccine-transmission

These initial studies in Israel and the UK leave little doubt that vaccination does, in fact, prevent transmission. New and larger studies are being launched to find out how much, and for how long, and how results vary among the various strains and mutations. But the existing evidence is pretty strong. Not 100% certain, but strong.

I will wait for conclusive evidence before I decide, Mike.

Kevin #222, no question we need to get back to normalcy as soon as possible, particularly with schools. But in the US, we've only vaccinated 16% of the population so far. We still have 50k new cases a day, and 500 deaths. It's still ravaging us. You've done much better.

But also, the awareness of who's "vulnerable" is expanding. Certainly vaccinating the elderly and sick is reducing fatalities and hospital loads, but we're also finding that more than a quarter of all COVID patients suffer "long hauler" syndrome, and that's most common among younger, healthier people who were only mildly ill.

So it's not quite as simple as calling time and opening everything up.

Thomas, fair enough, but please don't say there's "no evidence" already, because it's simply not true.

As to what's "conclusive", you'll have to decide that for yourself.

To me, even the possibility -- let alone the likelihood -- that the shot could save others' lives would be good enough reason by itself. I'm no great humanitarian, it just feels the right thing to do.

I suppose I am standing up for the odd ball refuseniks' right not to be vaccinated without having sanctions bear down upon them from the state. I have a few reasons for this:

1. The State gets things wrong... a lot. Public backing can disappear like snow in June once the facts change, as Tony Blair can attest to. And so, if the State in its wisdom decides that AN Others reason for refusal is 'not reasonable', I would have to ask, who gets to decide what is reasonable? Matt Hancock, Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn? You can see what a slippery slope that would be.

2. The principles at stake are the right of freedom of action and of choice within a liberal democracy. These are important and fundamental. I am not saying they cannot be curtailed in all circumstances, but you would normally be looking at Bubonic Plague or a world war in my view. This is not that. The threat presented affects one in a hundred. And that is when it is in full flow. We have a vaccine, and have vaccinated our vulnerable.

So are we really saying in a year's time we want the state to sanction students or children not fully vaccinated cos they might pass it on to somebody who has been vaccinated against (or offered the jab)?

The sanction is not proportionate, it would be ruinous to a student to deny him going the pub for the rest of his life to prevent him passing on a virus against which the vulnerable have already been inoculated against.

So my view is we are now in the fortunate position of not having to mandate this; we have taken reasonable precautions and, having done that, let things get back to the way they were, with, yes, a slightly increased risk for the vulnerable.

Andrew Ellams.

"I don't want to isn't reasonable to me, it's not just about you)

Incorrect.

It is "just about you". You have no influence whatsoever in protecting society by being vaccinated. You are protecting yourself, pure and simple. There is no proven medical or scientific evidence that being vaccinated stops transmission of Covid.

Okay, Mike.

I should have said no "proven" evidence. I will indeed decide for myself what is conclusive. That is my whole point

Mike, agreed. I have no fixed definition of what the 'vulnerable' would constitute, but once you've defined it and vaccinated them, I think we agree that the whole population then doesn't need a yearly needle?

Thomas, again:

"There is no proven medical or scientific evidence that being vaccinated stops transmission of covid."

Again, Thomas, yes, there is. I posted four links to it. Now it may not be sufficiently conclusive for you, but there is evidence, and what evidence there is has been "proven". Preliminary data is not theory or speculation. Cambridge University Hospitals does not publish what they think. They publish what they can prove.

You don't wanna believe it, don't. But you can't say it isn't there.

'It's not quite as simple as calling time and opening everything up.'

Exactly Mike.

In Brazil, case and mortality rates are horrendous. Many other countries are catching a similar high third wave.

And this, remember, with more than a year's frontline and laboratory study added to a now considerable knowledge base. Without that knowledge, the case numbers we are still seeing would result in even higher mortality rates than is the case.

The collective good of medicine and science has helped greatly reduce case and mortality numbers. They know of existing medicines that can treat different symptoms Covid-19 provokes which greatly reduces the risk of a case reaching a critical level, helping avert death itself.

Medicine and science are the heroes here. The villains are the politicians and governments that have tried to defy and deny the science and medicine, thus prolonging the pandemic and the suffering to dead and living alike.

They are, in large, to blame for the scepticism and doubt about the true potency of the virus itself and the efficacy of the vaccines now available.

That does not, IMO, exempt each and every individual who insists on negating those two issues from personal responsibility. All the more so if, as proven in this thread, they do so on a whimsy, absent of cogent reasoning. Such denialists potentially become very much part of the problem in helping to perpetuate rather than combat the pandemic which should be the primary interest of all.

Kevin #232, yep, agreed.

But then again, I get a yearly flu shot too. That's a choice.

Mike, again.

I havent seen any conclusive evidence. I can see the preliminary trials. Not enough to influence my decision at this stage.

I am sure all those who decide not to get the vaccine because it is their choice will fully support business owners who, as it's their choice, sack an employee who refuses to get vaccinated.

Business owners and their employees have lost fortunes this past year. So now we slowly get back to work and earning again and a business owner puts his livelihood and the livelihood of his staff at risk because one guy decides he won't get vaccinated because... well, he just doesn't want too.

Thank God the non-vaccine brigade are in the minority. There are probably around 126,000 British families today who might have a more stronger view on whether to vaccinate or not.

Wow, I missed all the vitriolic replies from the usual parties...

The last thing I will let in my body is an mRNA altering gene therapy trial drug under the guise of a vaccine. Even rabid pro-vaccination medics like Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche (who worked for the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation) are calling for an immediate suspension to this for fear of the devastation it could cause to the public health. But I'm guessing that news didn't appear on your Twitter & FB feeds.

Of course, if you believe there is no globalist agenda and that the world's governments don't get together under the aegis of the World Economic Forum to discuss things like population reduction (despite the WEF openly publishing materials discussing such topics), then I'm a fantasist and a tinfoil nutter, insulting the memories of all the people killed by - according to the totally trustworthy powers that be - the virus.

What's truly tragic here is that so many of you imagine yourselves to be objective thinkers, capable of drawing your own conclusions on so many issues. And yet, on almost every key matter, your opinions align with the official narrative. It would just be more honest and dignified if you were to admit you've gone along to get along for such a lengthy period that your entire capacity for critical thinking is in tatters. You've surrendered the course of your lives to those who rule over you, letting them do all the thinking for you, which means - even if you hate the Tory government, as probably most of you do - you still implicitly trust them, with your lives and the lives of your children.

So, to sum up, you trust the official narrative and I don't; you believe the virus is an existential threat to humanity and I don't; you believe the vaccine will save you from that alleged threat and I say the diametric opposite: the vaccine itself (+ lockdowns and economic devastation) is the threat. It seems we're poles apart and irreconcilably so.

Anyway, I know this post probably won't change a thing, other than maybe make me even more hated by the leftist mob. But at least you can't say nobody pointed out your error, should the day dawn when you realise how foolish you were to forsake inquiry and let the nanny state do your thinking for you.

I have stayed out of this debate up to now but feel I should throw my two penny worth in.

I contracted Covid about July last year and was one of the lucky ones who only had it mildly but I still have some remnants in my breathing and muscles.

There are over 5 million reasons why we need to get rid of this pandemic but I believe I have to support Thomas in his view that there is insufficient evidence to claim that the vaccine also gets rid of the ability to transmit the disease. I saw an eminent disease doctor on the news yesterday stating that they still have concerns that vaccinated people may still spread the disease.

Now unless and until 7.5 billion people are vaccinated this is not going to go away and, as it continues to mutate, it may never go away, just like the Flu.

The only thing we can be sure of is the vaccine will prevent serious symptoms at worst and protect a lot of people from catching it at all.

On the other hand, I respect people's decision not to get vaccinated. It is a free world and that is what we have fought wars over.

Thanks Jay H.

While there is no conclusive evidence that transmission is stopped by vaccination I will not be vaccinated.

In line with proven medical and scientific evidence the only person I am putting at risk is myself. I'm comfortable with that.

Jay (234),

I hope you, your wife and her family are okay. It seems your wife is in as much danger, doing a life-saving job, now as when this virus first started in Brazil, with no end to the devastation that exists in your country.

I think of your wife every time you post and the terrible scenes she has witnessed in the hospital where she risks her life every hour she is there.

Best wishes Jay and may God protect your wife and her colleagues in the hospital.

Thomas @ 230 what self righteous crap. If you don't get vaccinated you are more susceptible to the virus and therefore more likely to pass it on.

It's not rocket science.

Wow, Jay @ 238, let it not be said that I have a closed mind to well argued points. This member of the leftist mob has certainly been won over. Last time the nanny state makes any choices for me. In fact I intend to re-think all of my leftist views.

Is it right to be calling BAME and other citizens who refuse the vaccination, and there are plenty of them, Refuseniks? In my opinion it sounds derogatory and similar to Beatnik.

I find it strange, that you labelled people who don't hold the same view as your own, Jay. Yes, one of the definitions of Refusenik is:
 A person who refuses to cooperate with a system or comply with a law because of a moral conviction.

However, We've all seen the divisive effect of using this negative terminology, in my opinion, like "Remoaner" and "Brexiteer". Would it have not been better to leave the name calling out of it?

Because I work for the NHS, I've had the vaccination, but I respect the right of people who do not want it.

As the official figures demonstrate, there will probably never be a full uptake of the vaccination, unless they make it compulsory.

Here are contemporary figures for the uptake by the over-70s in England:

White British people – 91.3%
Black African people – 58.8%
Black Caribbean people – 68.7%
Bangladeshi people – 72.7%
Pakistani people – 74.0%

Ethnic minorities representative about roughly 10% of the population of the UK, which equates to around six million. So there will be a sizeable amount of people who will decline their invitation.

Jay Woods (LAT) @ 238.

I am genuinely interested Jay, what is the driving force behind your beliefs?

Is it your faith? Your politics? Your questioning of Science? The prevalence of global capitalism and consumerism? The inequality of socioeconomics? Fear of not being able to adequately provide for and protect your family? Other?

I'd also be interested to know the sources on which you base your beliefs. For more than a year now I have been freely posting the sources from which I glean my own information on the issues which evidently distress you.

If you could be so kind as to share with us such links it would be greatly appreciated, by this poster at least.

I agree with your implied view: that people should not base their views on what appears on their Twitter and Facebook feeds. People absolutely need to be more critical and discerning readers and consumers of information than that.

Such an opinion suggests you do have credible sources you base your views on which you would happily share with others as a means to educate and possibly convert them to your beliefs.

Personally, I'd be intrigued to know who the puppeter(s) are pulling the strings to all this and just why they are taking the path you claim they are to achieve the objectives you list.

It strikes me as an extremely convulted way to achieve what, in effect, already exists. It appears to me as neither cost- nor time-efficient, but access to the links of the sources on which you base your own reasoning could help clarify my confusion on that and other issues you raise.

Looking forward to you sharing your sources, Jay. Cheers.

After post 238, I realise I'm getting better now at distinguishing between Brazilian Jay and Latvian Jay.

Coming soon, visible arm patches that signal to others that you've been vaccinated. Coming soon after that, complaints that the arm patches are allowing people to exclude those who are just practicing their right to choose.

Jay @238

I think people's views have absolutely nothing to do with being left-wing or right-wing. I doubt the 126,000 deaths attributed to Covid-19 have any political leanings whatsoever. Though maybe the actual figure you will dispute?

You've probably heard about the containership running aground in the Suez Canal? I hear the helmsman was "taken out" by a sniper on a grassy knoll just as the ship passed the sand dunes where NASA were filming the latest moon landings.

Not everything belongs to the conspiracy ideology, some things actually happen.

"leftist mob"

"Frankenvax"

"let the nanny state do your thinking for you."

"your entire capacity for critical thinking is in tatters"

And that, boys and girls, is what they call critical thinking in Latvia.

(eye roll)

Dave @ 241.

Thanks for your kind words as ever Dave.

Yep. It's reached obscene proportions now here in Brazil. I'm just in constant awe of my wife and all who work in the front line of this pandemic, particularly here in the most perverse nation on the planet when it comes to governance and care of its citizens.

Every day I see the emotional, physical and psychological duress she has been constantly under now for a year. And yet every day she gets up and faces it all over again for 12 hours, then religiously goes through her hour long 'decontamination' protocol on arriving home to ensure she keeps others safe.

She just had a well-merited week off work. Her first break since September. We are in full lockdown again, so were housebound. The only time we ventured out was last Thursday when I went for my first vaccine. She got her first in February, but has to wait 12 weeks until May for the second.

We binged watch loadsa Pinewood Studio classic films. She loved 'em!

Between us we are now into treble digits in the number of people we personally know who have had a serious bout of CV-19. A third of those didn't make it.

This is our reality, Dave.

Keep safe, Dave. And do the right thing. For yourself, and others.

Robert #246 and John #248, you've both still got me chortling.

John, what I heard was that the sniper was Elvis.

Brazilian Jay wins it. And not by a close shave!

Sorry Mike, wrong.

I heard Elvis was still in the building.

Brent,

Jay understandably speaks as much sense as anyone on this subject, and if this last 12 months has felt like it's been a lot longer, then it must feel like a lifetime for families in Jay's position.

I think one of the biggest things about Covid-19 is that we worry for others more than ourselves, so it must be absolutely horrendous for people in Jay's position. So let's hope “the real frontline workers” are rewarded once this pandemic has passed, because these people have been the true saviours, and the bravest of human-beings.

Well said, Tony.

Mike #251, and here is me thinking the sniper was real!

Tony, that's a great post – take a bow, sir.

Remember the Green Day song "American Idiot"?

We have a whole effing country full of them.

CDC director warns of 'impending doom' as Covid-19 cases spike in most states

Tony, yes, people like Jay's partner have risked their lives for others. Some have separated themselves from their families for weeks and even months.

Jay 238

The "expert" you mention, Dr Geert Vanden Bossche, is not even a human doctor much less a virologist, he is a veterinarian.

Secondly, a key part of his agenda is that he has been developing his own supposed "universal vaccine" which apparently protects us from everything including Covid-19. He has been hawking his snake oils for the last 8 years and has ramped up his efforts alongside his attempts to discredit Covid vaccines.

He worked for your bogeyman Bill Gates for one year, but his job had nothing to do with vaccine development, he was a logistics man, helping to plan the distribution.

In a nutshell, he is a quack, another greedy person stepping outside his/her area of expertise to cash in on foolish people.

Kieran, in all fairness I think he meant Dr Van Nostrum (that's a Seinfeld reference if it escapes the locals).

Kieran, demolition job done. How do people fall for conmen like this. Isn't that Andrew Wakefield now peddling his deranged garbage in Australia??

They wrecked my back garden when I let them film the Mars rover landing.

"Jay... The "expert" you mention, Dr Geert Vanden Bossche, is not even a human doctor."

We're really taking conspiracy theories to the limit here!

John #263, yours too then, I wondered what happened after I set the dog on them.

Jay Harris @239, you summarise a very balanced view that I lean towards. Very well put.

Jay (BRZ), I sincerely hope you and the family keep well. As I do everyone on here and elsewhere.

This is not in the slightest meant to be patronising, but well done to the vast, vast majority for keeping this civil despite inevitable differences of opinion and understandable emotion on an emotive subject. Just as Lyndon stipulated when he shifted this debate here.

We come here to talk Everton but this shows we are a close knit virtual bunch. If only this could be in a pub pre or post match!!

Thomas #236... by sheer coincidence, I saw this news about an hour after I last posted to you (took me this long to get back to my computer). The US CDC today confirmed that a vaccinated person -- once fully immune, which takes two weeks after the shots -- cannot pass the virus to an unvaccinated one. The study just came out this morning.

Interim Estimates of Vaccine Effectiveness of BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 COVID-19 Vaccines in Preventing SARS-CoV-2 Infection Among Health Care Personnel, First Responders, and Other Essential and Frontline Workers — Eight US Locations, December 2020 – March 2021

Also, it's now unanimous -- just yesterday AstraZeneca confirmed, as did Moderna, Pfizer and J&J previously, that their vaccine is 100% effective in preventing serious Covid-19 illness and hospitalization.

That is excellent news, Mike. I was searching high and low yesterday and could not believe how little I could find on Google Scholar.

Surely reducing transmission is a fundamental effect of any vaccine? The vaccine must reduce or eliminate the propagation and virulence of the virus in the body of the vaccinated individual. That must reduce transmission.

Or have I got that wrong?

But you can guarantee 100% this will not change Thomas Richards's position.

I'm still not clear as to why Thomas doesn't want the jab? I'm clear on why Jay Woods (Lat) doesn't. But why Thomas??

You can tell me to mind my own business if you like and no offence but if you were clear on what it is you object to it would help me understand your reasoning. Unless it's the same reasoning as Jay Woods (Lat) that is.

Mark,

He says (@230) it's because: "There is no proven medical or scientific evidence that being vaccinated stops transmission of Covid."

I think the problem for the scientific community is asymptomatic Covid transmission. Here you have a disease that can be carried by a significant but unknown percentage of the population without them showing any symptoms.

Unless you test everyone repeatedly and correlate that with vaccinations, you can not verify that vaccinations are reducing or (hopefully) preventing transmission, as well as preventing or reducing serious cases and deaths.

But the falling case numbers should be testament to that surely? Or is that solely because of lockdown??

It's the good old 'causation or correlation' conundrum yet again!!

Why the fuck would you not get the vaccine (outside of genuine medical reasons not to)?!?! We know vaccines work, this is a vaccine that has been tested as stringently (and far more publicly) than any in history, it can protect you and your loved ones.

I can't see any reason to not get it, for fuck's sake, even if you don't believe it protects you, what's the harm in trusting the millions of scientific and medical experts who back it?

James, absolutely 100% agree.

But 'vaccine hesitancy' (the woke term for anti-vaxxer tendencies) is very real. The percentages are frightening, whichever way you slice it, and mean that we could be left dealing with Covid-19 and its variants for a very long time, despite the incredible brilliance of those scientists.

People believe very strange things. Trying to understand the reasons why people believe what they believe is very challenging. A large part of that challenge is because it's not down to logic or information, knowledge or education.

So the idea that you can explain, reason, placate, inform, answer concerns, persuade, cajole... that might work in a few instances but will still leave a vast swath of vaccine refusers who let all that stuff just bounce off them.

But I don't think mandatory vaccination is the antidote. Rather the vaccine passport, allowing businesses and institutions to deny them access where they would potentially endanger the rest of society that has done their bit – the ones amongst us who have accepted and rjoiced in the incredible scientific achievement of creating and rolling out effective vaccines in incredible quantities in such a short time.

Of course, for some (Jay Woods of Latvia springs to mind...) that achievement itself is proof of the vast global conspiracy!!!

I also cant understand why people would not want to be vaccinated, and if its a religious reason then the leaders of those religions objecting to people getting vaccinated need to come out and tell us why. I think everyone has a right to refuse the vaccine but they in time will have to accept that they may have to live with certain restrictions to their lives. Just like if you want to go to certain parts of the world you have to have vaccinations to be allowed into those countries. So I believe when every adult in Britain has had the jab there will be restrictions to where those who haven't been vaccinated can go.

Do you not think these same people would not be able to get their/there hands on forged passports Michael?

Phil (244), you reckon that about 10% of the population will refuse to have the jab,six million people, I have had it in my mind that about three or four million would eventually refuse to be vaccinated, just a guess on my part. I find the total you say to be very disappointing and very disturbing, because the more the jab is refused the longer this virus will stay around.

Tony

You are right that people will always look to ways to break through systems, but is that a good enough argument for not having a genuine passport. People have false driving licenses but if they are stopped those details can be checked, and maybe a national database in the same way would be needed for a vaccine passport. But I don't think we should not do something that tries to protect everybody because some people want to circumvent what may be the law in 12 months time.

Thanks Michael.
So in summary, If your correct in interpreting Thomas' concerns, he doesn't want to take the vaccine until he's sure it works?
How much evidence would that take Thomas?
For what it's worth I don't think anyone should be forced to have an inoculation if they have valid fears of after effects or some rational reason - I just don't understand the reluctance to take a jab that, even if it's “potentially”, saves lives.

Tony (274) Their hands Tony, possessive pronoun, £10,000 a year I paid for your education, those teachers who taught you, is it too late to sue them?

funny enough Dave, I can't believe that anybody hasn't tried to sue Thatcher's Government for the way they emalgimated the schools in the eighties, because they genuinely wasted a good few months of our education, although you know I've never ever blamed others for my own failings.

Brian, I was just giving an example of what will definitely happen mate, nothing more.

Has anyone logged on to the governments Yellow Card reporting scheme. You will see the numbers that may surprise you. They are related to adverse reactions, injuries and even many cases of death as a result of the vaccines. The vaccine is new and without any mid to long term data.

One thing I would like to point out to those with life & health insurance is that your insurer will not cover you for any injuries sustained directly as a result of being vaccinated. They don't cover covid, which is fair enough as the pay out over death from covid isn't sustainable for them. However, we are talking about no pay out over injuries sustained from something that is regarded as being the cure.

Insurance companies know the long-term risk associated with this particular vaccine hence the decision to not pay out.

The concern over forgeries is very valid, Tony (and Dave's concern about your spelling equally so). I have had sleepless nights over both but I think it can be done effectively with a smartphone app (the vaccine passport... not your spelling).

The driving licence is a good example. I tried to rent a car here last year and I could not believe the number of steps required (failing in the end). It can be done.

Tony (279) where's that bleedin' wordchecker when you need him, amalgamate, Tony, not the way you spelt it, I've told you Michael about that wordchecker, I know he's a relation of yours, but get rid, he's takin' the piss.

Dave @ 275. I didn't say that, mate, I said that Ethnic minorities make up 10% of the population of the UK, whichequates about six million. From that amount, you can extrapolate the amount of that group who will refuse the vaccination, based on the ONS figures.

So which is worse? A sizeable minority...if that's not a contradiction in terms...of Anti-vaxxers, who, by refusing the vaccine render the whole concept of the 95% herd immunity thing unreachable - with the continued knock on effects that might bring to the Country / World.

Or...shades of Anthony Burgess...forcing people to change...whether they want to or not...for their own good? because they're seen as a danger to Society.

Which is the bigger, 5 million (or so?) small sins, or 1 great big sin.

E.M. Forster famously said that if he "had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country."

Me too probably...is it even relevant

Which side are you on?

Where does that leave us as a group, as a Country ?

Phil (284), yes Phil, just reread your post, sorry about that, but it will still leave quite a few refusing to have the jab, which doesn't help in the long run. I, like you, don't judge, just pointing out the number who might refuse the jab.

I forgot to add that your percentages are way off. 25 to 30% is the more likely range of vaccine refusers, with bizarrely higher numbers amongst the BAME, who are more susceptible to the ravages of Covid-19. Go figure!

And there was me just singing the praises of these brilliant scientists...

The ex-Pfizer scientist who became an anti-vax hero

In two minds about posting that as no doubt some will read it anew and believe his 'message'. Probably the sort of nonsense Thomas Richards has already read but is not admitting to.

Michael#287.
Just read that link Michael. So it causes infertility in women?
What's more worrying, I feel, are the latest reports that the jab causes enlargement of the adult male genitalia.
I apologise for any spelling mistakes but I'm being jostled and pushed as I try to type.
I'm number 12,578 in the queue at my local vaccination centre.

What I disagree with, is other members expecting people who are not going to have the vaccination, to give their reason as to why on a public forum. It is none of your business.

Passive aggression, bullying and mocking them, is not going to dissuade them or help encourage the people to change their mind.

What is evident, just from reading this debate, is the open hostility towards members who have chosen to not have the vaccination. It reminds me of the way the Nazi party managed to persuade the non Jewish population of Germany to turn on their fellow citizens, through cohersion, propaganda and open threats.

You may feel that this is an extreme analogy, but we've already had one person state they would deny medical help, to a person who said they would refuse the vaccine. Many members have openly castigated these members for their opinion.

At the moment it is only verbal condemnation of this group of people, but we all know what extremists might might do to citizens, who go against their values and opinions.

Let's say covid is here to stay for the next 10 years. Should we expect everyone to receive a vaccine (or 2) every year in the way that many already receive seasonal flu vaccines?

We don't yet know the infectivity or severity of the likely future waves.

Whereas polio vaccines are administered to children and offer a lifetime of immunity, this disease is quite different in nature.

It makes sense to empathise with those that don't want the vaccine and to explain the likely benefits to their families and communities rather than berating them.

This debate is probably going to persist for several years.

So we should ‘empathise' with people who won't even share their reasons for refusing this vaccine? Sod that!
It is evident that people don't understand the concept of a ‘social contract'; the idea that you sign up to do your bit for the common good in return for the wholly artificial privileges - what many will regard as ‘fundamental rights' - that are provided by the society they live in. On this occasion, we are collectively being asked to take the same small risk as everyone else (young /old, rich/ poor), which is that we may have some adverse reaction to the vaccine. Many of these ‘vaccine hesitants' will have previously taken a plethora of over the counter or prescribed medicines without thinking about it at all, despite the fact that none of them are necessarily risk free. The difference at this time is that everyone is aware that these are rapidly developed and introduced pharmaceuticals so we are all, in a sense, part of the clinical trial process.
The ‘right to choose' is a tenuous one at the best of times. At a time of crisis (unless you have hard evidence that shows you are more at risk than most) it is a luxury position that labels you as a coward, selfish or stupid.
I've had my first jab (with no ill affects apart from a few days of fatigue) at literally the first opportunity and have always advocated the same to my family and friends. You can talk about what could potentially happen but the only thing that is likely if many refuse the vaccine is that we will prolong the impact of this pathogen on our present and future.
Don't tell me you won't have the vaccine if you won't tell me why (full disclosure expected). Keep your discretionary unvaccinated status to yourself if you wish, but be aware that if I find out I will simply assume you are chickening out. Don't tell me you've been informed by ‘experts' if you can't demonstrate it. Enough of my colleagues were ultra quick to jump on the ‘it's only like flu' bandwagon or pass on the ‘gargle with warm water / don't eat ice cream' bullshit that sprang up to show that being highly educated and working in a scientific industry doesn't necessarily mean you have any discernment/ common sense.

Si @ 292, who are you addressing your diatribe to?

I don't want to get into the issue of the vaccination other than to say that I will take it gladly as living without having the jabs will be impossible. What I'd like to add is a further clarification on the seriousness of the pandemic or otherwise compared to, say, a typical or bad Flu season. I had posted on this and since kept quiet because of the ridiculous level of abuse that I got as a result. The best bet now on false positives from Covid tests is 0.38%. Based on 1.25 million + current tests a day we could therefore expect around 4000+ false positives per day. Actual positives today are around 4600 so the false positive rate in positive tests is 90% plus of positive tests. Most people who are now dying from Covid (and some very horribly) are catching it when they go into hospital for other reasons. As the average age for Covid deaths is above the average age for deaths in the UK, no lives are actually being "lost "due to Covid. Typical deaths from Flu are around 48000 per year but this year were 485 so patently many Flu deaths are actually being reported as Covid. Have there been excess deaths this year from Covid over a typical flu year. No, not of any significance. So was Jay as evil in his comment as the mob would have you think? Well, make your own mind up based on the statistics.

Michael @ 287. That's a very interesting read, albeit a mystifying one. How the good doctor transformed from an esteemed scientific researcher into a sceptic on R&D and delivery of the Coronavirus Vaccine.

In doing so he seemingly abandoned the lifelong practices he surely employed in the lab: rigorously verifying the science at every step.

Carrying on with that theme, a friend shared the following with me today:

CV-19 Myths & Facts

I believe it's part of King's College London set-up. It certainly uses data from the College's CV-19 symptom tracking app available to UK residents.

It debunks such things as:
* CV-19 vaccines contain live Coronavirus. They don't
* vaccines alter your genes. They don't. People are confusing two very different things - RNA and DNA
* vaccines are not vegan, halal or kosher. Not true. Various religious bodies from the Muslim, Hindu and Jewish faiths confirm this
* vaccines contain cells from aborted fetuses and monkeys. Not true
* vaccines will make you infertile (this links back to your good doctor, Michael). Not true. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists debunks this claim on scientific grounds
* you can't have the vaccine if you have allergies. Actually, you can. Although you may need to do so in a more controlled environment

FACT: a CV-19 vaccine WILL protect you and others.

And as Mike Gaynes has already pointed out, there is an ever-growing body of evidence that vaccination IS helping to arrest transmission rates and reduce the severity of catching the virus so hospital care is not required.

Phil Greenough

"What I disagree with, is other members expecting people who are not going to have the vaccination, to give their reason as to why on a public forum."

Sorry mate but if you come on a thread about vaccines and say you're not getting one it's entirely reasonable and should be expected that someone will say "why?" Just as on a match day thread if you say "Godfrey should be in goal," someone would say "why?" as you're seemingly taking a contrarian view and inviting discussion by posting on here in the first place.

Secondly,

"It reminds me of the way the Nazi party managed to persuade the non Jewish population of Germany to turn on their fellow citizens, through cohersion, propaganda and open threats."

Why does the whole "you're a Nazi" argument only come up when society has ideas that protect life like vaccines, or limiting firearms? You're cool with having to buy insurance, pay taxes, drive on a certain side of the road, not drive if you have a DUI, needing a passport to go from one country to the next, etc etc but if someone offers you free medicine then you're the victim of Nazi's?

Phil Greenough. Congratulations.

You win the 'Godwin Law' prize (look it up) for comparing the genuine and sincere debate on this thread to Nazi persecution of the Jewish population.

A couple of your posts need challenging, Phil. Back at 244 you mistakenly associate me to describing the BAME demographic who refuse the vaccination as ‘Refuseniks'. I did no such thing.

I can only guess you did so based on my use of the word in my post @ 224. Why, I have no idea. I have made ZERO reference to BAME or other minority groups who are reluctant to take the vaccine.

That post CLEARLY addresses those who have posted in this thread, and this thread only. No one beyond TW world.

‘Refusenik' is just a word, Phil. A convenience to describe people in this thread who by their own admission are…refusing to take the vaccine.

I am more than happy to be judged on my submissions in this very thread and the way I have addressed people who ‘don't hold the same view as me.'

Look at my post @ 245, specifically addressed to Jay Woods who kicked off this thread. Is it condescending? Is it demeaning? Is it damning of his views? I would argue not.

On the contrary, I express a genuine interest into what motivates Jay to hold the views he does. I seek to be educated by him, given that he says those who oppose his views are not sourcing the right information on which to base their ‘mainstream' opinions. I politely ask for links to his sources so I can evaluate them and possibly be persuaded by what he considers ‘the truth'.

As for your post @ 290, I don't agree with you that this thread is flooded with ‘passive aggression, bullying and mocking' of people who admit to refusing to take the vaccine. There are many, MANY balanced posts, legitimately asking why anyone wouldn't take the vaccine, packed with referenced links, as to why people SHOULD take the vaccine.

In my own first post in this thread I wrote:

‘The choice to be vaccinated or not rests with the individual. Personally, other than those at risk from severe allergic reaction to the vaccine, I see no sensible grounds for refusing the vaccine. I haven't heard a plausible justification for refusing the vaccination which is based on anything more than 'I don't want to, so there.'

What is aggressive, bullying or mocking in those words?

You should also look at the other side of the coin Phil.

Read Jay Woods second post @ 238. It drips with contempt and is full of presumptions that those who oppose his view are ‘sheeples' who have 'surrendered the course of your lives to those who rule over you, letting them do all the thinking for you.'

Thomas Richards at various posts takes a similar line.

@ 168 he wrote: ‘A free society does not impose compulsory vaccination. You carry on doing as you're told.'

@ 196 ‘If they told you to put your hand in the fire, would you do it without asking a question?

@ 201 ‘Anyone who believes what they are told without question are welcome to take it.'

The message of both Jay Woods and Thomas Richards is very explicit. Both make the presumption that THEY are the more discerning judges and that the rest of us are just ‘sheeples', meekly following and believing whatever we are told.

A great irony (for me) is that one of those posters (Jay Woods) makes a blanket presumption that all who oppose him are ‘lefties', whereas the one poster in this thread who most closely aligns himself to Jay (Thomas Richards) is a self-declared life-long Labour man.

But then again, Thomas like Jay, in very recent threads did likewise. Presuming to know the political allegiance of other posters and calling them out as Tories, only to be corrected that they were active canvassing members of the Labour party.

The fact that Thomas is a self-declared Coronavirus vaccine refusenik (I will use the word, if that's all right with you Phil) AND a self-declared Labour man is a further puzzlement to me.

Why? Because the Labour Party is at heart a politically socialist movement (much diluted in today's modern Labour Party, I admit). What is at the heart of socialism? The public good. Collectivism. Social welfare.

Whatever Thomas is basing his decision on to refuse the vaccine, it doesn't appear to be influenced by his political principles.

Michael @282, it can be done with a smartphone app, can't be disputed, but if this happens we would no longer be living in a free society.

I didn't mind you having a go at me, Michael, because I learned from it, but Covid has been political from very early on in this pandemic, and just saying it can be done, seems very simplistic imo.

Phil #290, in my opinion any argument that relies on a comparison to Nazism is inappropriate hyperbole and automatically invalid. (Jay, good callout on Godwin's Law.)

There is nothing in modern history that has ever compared to, or should be compared to, Nazism -- least of all a debate on the merits of vaccination. What you describe as "open hostility" is not the same thing as mass extermination, and I find the comparison repellent.

But just for the record, your statement is also factually wrong. The Germans who turned on their Jewish neighbors required no coercion, propaganda or threats. They were willing and eager. Anti-Semitism was a core value in Germanic societies for centuries. Many towns that massacred their Jewish residents during WWII were the same ones that had conducted mass burnings of Jews during the Black Death 600 years earlier.

Well spotted Jay, and we weren't even close to infinity. And Phil, just tap out mate.

Okay, an additional response to keep things somewhat constructive: Phil, it is about the ability to infect others by making the decision not to participate in what is obviously a common crisis. While the criticism must account for historical or core issues, overall concern about the basis on which the non-vaccine decision is made is absolutely justified.

We've heard a good amount of referencing in this thread and the citations offered have received the derision deserved. Many of those who wish to not get the vaccine are simply not providing justification for anything but their rugged individualism. That tends to piss people off in a time of collective crisis and it strains the perceived membership and cohesion within the collective.

Tony, I've thought about this long and hard and completely agree with yourself and Jay@238.

My very firm view now is that this whole Covid thing is indeed political and associated very strongly with the New Green Deal, the Great Reset and the ultimate aim of massive depopulation to an elite 50 million or so with the rest not deserving to have a life.

This is being driven by the UN (article 21), a raft of (all unelected) NGOs such as WWF and WEF, and the elite themselves via the G7 and Davos. I have no proof because none will ever be provided but the alternative that the governing elite is simply stupid is not possible.

We've descended to Nazi comparisons, the typical extension of all online arguments these days, it seems. Time to shut this down, I think.