Crisis Point

I don't think it's a crisis yet; however, I can't see Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin staying another season if we're not in Europe. I feel, with the current inept recruitment, that's when the crisis point will be.

Why not?

And let's say we did win things. What would that change? For both the players and the fans.

Truth is, since the end of Roberto Martinez's first season, we have become a laughing stock.

Martinez didn't actually get much money but, fair does, he did sign the best striker we've had in 30 years and make some other canny buys with limited funds in terms of what we have pissed up since then.

Moshiri has proved himself a bungling fool with inability to make correct and wise football decisions.

Why did nobody take Koeman aside in the summer of 2017 and take him to task on why we needed a combined £70 million on Sigurdsson and Klaassen?

Why did we allow ourselves to lose Lukaku and not replace him with a striker that at the time could have built on that previous seasons 7th place finish?

Absolutely abysmal management from all of them put together and results like yesterday come as no surprise, it's what happens when you spend shit loads of money on players from clubs that have just been relegated or used to fighting relegation.

I suspect they are happy to stay in the Premier League until the new ground is built.

Forget Europe. It's not happening.

As soon as the January window opens, we need to find a leader, a captain, a talisman that can really get us going and bring some real guts, fire and passion to our play and fucking inspire our lackluster team... look to the Championship to find him! In fact, sign two of them!! It's also about time that some of our young lads got game time, even those on loan.

We are the live game up next on a Monday night on Sky. A repeat of yesterday's fuck-up and we could be in serious trouble with even tougher fixtures to come in the run-up to Chrimbo.

Sort it out, Blues... for fuck's sake.

Oh they have a plan alright!

It's called Bramley-Moore Dock and every time the team is struggling, we can always comfort ourselves with the little snippets from the club.

"See that shiny new thing getting built, that's our new ground that. Don't worry if the team is shit, that can play in a spanky new stadium looking shit in it."

We are rudderless, right from the off, Moshiri set the tone for me when he said "We don't expect to beat the big clubs".

That to me sets the bar at mediocrity and the players know that they can get away with another one of the shellings yesterday. It might be at Wolves, maybe home to Spurs, Liverpool, who knows, but it'll happen again and the players know it's okay.

That definately set the tone, embarrassing sound bite from an owner who is clueless on footballing matters.

That sounds right but I won't fact check it — could take a while, lol!

Alas, in today's cotton-wool wrapped over-paid football world, I doubt whether many of that type still exist anymore.

It's hard to not say yes based on TW alone (albeit I don't feel it's a true representation). Many on here “accept our stock”. They're happy to say ‘Rafa is good, because he will stabilise the team'.

Personally I don't want stability. I want to gamble….I want us to be the Dortmund of the Premier Leaue, the team that gives promising youth it's chance.

The only place we made money in the Moshiri reign was on the likes of Vlasic, Lookman and Onyekuru. Sure, none of them have set the world on fire, but it's a much safer investment place than the like of Walcott and Bolasie.

We need to find the next Haaland, the next Sancho, the next Bellingham…. get them in, and play them. Anything else is perpetual mediocrity.

Easier said than done, of course, but I doubt that either Marcel or Rafa are the men to do it.

You can't do that these days because players have too much power over their clubs.

30 years ago, we would have said to Moise Kean "You are fucken staying here lad, get your head down and show us why we paid £20 million plus for you".

Kean wants out so we decide to allow a player leave that we paid big money for leaving Calvert-Lewin our only available option and a lumbering free agent, oh and the invisible kebab seller who permanently seems crocked too.

You just can't force players to run and work hard anymore, we live in a snowflake country.

Same with Godfrey, if the lad is still ill then go to Jarrad Branthwaite, and tell him "See that centre-half position, well it's yours for now because X, Y and Z are either injured or just shite."

We just don't live in that world anymore.

Maybe I'm just fantasising about the past and when footballers actually cared about playing for the club that paid them.

Spurs' next away game is a trip to Goodison Park so don't worry Harry and boys, your woes will be gone.

I've been feeling a bit of apathy coming into the crowd, and maybe, just maybe, many are starting to have that exact thought, Robert?

Matthew #6, you hit a point I have made repeatedly. This club has not had a truly inspirational leader on the pitch since Barry and Pip.

Kevin #17, there are still a few leaders like that out there: Ward-Prowse, Schmeichel, Maybe Coady (notwithstanding his limited talent), Noble (although his sun is now setting), and, much as I hate to say it, Henderson. But guys like Roy Keane and Kompany and Terry are pretty much an extinct species.

Seamus has the fire but cannot inspire.

The words "existential crisis" came to my mind this morning, Robert, but for a different reason, which I may try and explain some time.

I agree about going all-out in the cups. I am a supporter overall of Benitez, but was appalled by the seven or eight changes for the Huddersfield game, which we just scraped through.

Watching the Man Utd game, with the great counter attacks and some good defending, I thought I saw a team that could do well in the FA Cup this season, certainly with Calvert-Lewin added; not just for up front, but also with his defending at opposition set pieces.

Although I know, especially after yesterday, we would need some kind draws, a bit of luck and much greater belief. Among my most cherished match-going memories is boisterous Evertonians singing "We Shall Not Be Moved" on a good FA Cup run. And one of those can be a catalyst to turn things around.

Gary, 15... stability or gamble... that is perhaps the key debate for us supporters. But I am sure Moshiri & Co are going to go for stability on the pitch, due to the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock. But then I see that as a huge gamble.

We have been patient for too long listening to the board making excuse after excuse.

As Everton fans, it's even harder when your neighbours are arguably the best team in the world right now and winning all in front of them.

Teams that have been forced to make drastic changes have been successful breaking through, like West Ham and Leicester. Sustaining those advances is difficult land probably speaks to the upper office skill set.

I suspect Rafa may crank up the pressure for change but the overall club culture is not well suited for it.

The consistency of the numbers of serious injuries to Everton players and the threadbare squad, you could argue means in context there isn't really a full squad with enough strength in depth. You reap what you sow and the purchase of poor players by the Clogg, Walsh and Sam, is taking a significant impact on the effectiveness of the Everton first team squad.

But how is that what happened yesterday, last seen v Spurs almost 3 years ago, and God help Everton, when Spurs are up in a couple of weeks.

No more prisoners of the past as the past is now 26 years, and a few semi-finals and one FA Cup Final defeat, for Evertonians to lament.

The facts don't lie and history doesn't lie. But hope eternal, but this is going to be a hell of a tough run of games, into the New Year.

So for Wolves on Monday night week. Let's hope and pray for a positive reaction from the team. But we all have to graft for our livings, and it raises the questions about the attitude and commitment of the Everton players.

Some thing mentally is not right with the physche and dynamics at Everton; towards the end, the players' bottle and belief spontaneously disappeared.

This is a business and it's improving and mediocrity is becoming the standard reference for Everton FC.

You watch Liverpool today, yes they have superior players in every position to us, but it's the sheer hunger and desire to keep going forward, to keep scoring.

Contrast that to us yesterday, it goes 1-0 to us early on, we didn't have a scooby doo what to do about pushing on, hence Watford equalise pouncing on our players' malaise.

Mentality is something I don't think you can buy and even breeding it into players is hard.

Players like Cahill had it, a very good footballer but never a world class superstar, but he had an absolutely never-say-die attitude.

We have accepted too much too long. We have become resigned and used to it. Every year, every manager, every transfer window, is a false dawn, like the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock. What's a stadium without a team? Bolton?

Betrayed every time. We have become inured to a culture of defeat, where the mediocre is acceptable. I agree a clear out of the old boy network is long overdue. The EFC mentality would not be tolerated by fans on the other side of park.

It's about time EFC fans started organising a resistance group of several thousand to pressure the owners and be visible in demanding more than this mess of pottage we are presented with every season.

Yesterday, a kid at Sandhills station was walking up and down the platform with a Gray scarf chanting "It was only 5". I thought to myself "I saw Hickson, Young, Pickering, when I was a lad." I felt sad for him. What has he to hope for?

Liverpool, I hate to say, just get on with the job and take every game seriously.

It seems our recent Old Trafford performance was just another flash in the pan.

Prime example really.

Does anyone think that Mo Salah would be this great a player if it had been us that poached him back in 2017?

We would have trained any ability out of him after a year and he'd have probably become another Theo Walcott.

The standards that lot set across the park from the academy level (witnessed when their kids schooled us last season) is just to be admired and I only wish this club had a similar mentality.

We were at similar levels with our neighbours. There fans hounded out Gilette and Hicks and the rest is history.

We on the other hand have done nothing in over 30 years to remove Bungling Bill and have eaten shit everyday since.

As fans we are powerless in how our club is run.

Our main objective is to watch the blues and come away feeling like we gave it a go whilst being entertained and, dare I say it, challenging for trophies. That hasn't happened for years.

The owner and the previous one have different objectives. Stay in the league, build a stadium and wash some rubles, don't rock the boat, plucky Everton.

We are in a league that has attracted some of the richest owners on the planet. We can't compete financially with the top teams.

To install some pride, the club needs to do things differently. We need innovation and a new way of running the club. The current ways of working are a failed outdated model that is slowly killing the club if we aren't going to win the league or even challenge for it.

I want the club to have an identity. Red Bull have an identity with young hungry players. Bilbao have an identity in picking a percentage of local players. I want something similar. I want to identify with what the club are doing.

I want to see young hungry players leaving everything out on the pitch every week. I want to see us bringing in players with certain characteristics for each position for the Premier League.

I am fed up of big-club cast-offs or players that aren't suited to the Premier League. It's criminal that we don't have two players for each position for the first team. We probably have more coaches than first-team players...

The whole thing stinks.

No doubt surrender possession and keep it tight until late on and lose it 1-0, pat on the back.

I want to see some real desire and hunger a week on Monday.

That's a really good example. Had we got Salah (or Firminho or Mane), I feel as though we'd have had them chasing the channels and tracking back to make sure we didn't lose games, and resting them in the cups to make sure we finished 8th not 12th.

We have to have the courage to win, and to compete for trophies; otherwise, it is a complete waste of time.

Martinez saw that on arrival and nearly pulled it off. He's the only man brave enough to attempt to have us behave like a big club in decades.

I desperately hope Benitez goes all out in the FA Cup.

And Robert, you are right. Martinez was the last manager to be brave enough to try to change our state of mind. One of my favourite games under him was away against Arsenal.

Although, if he had the Moshiri money, what would have been done with it?

Yes, absolutely yes!! Bobby did have us behaving like a Big Club for a little while. It was such a refreshing change after the old, "knife to a gunfight" fella.

This article sums up how I've felt for a while. There is nothing wrong with the players or managers, in general. Every team makes a bad signing at some point.

The problem is the club... it must be some sort of Old Boys Club where everyone looks after each other to protect their cushy number.

Look at the players who've started well and drifted off the pace after a few months. Remember how Pienaar looked faster than ever when he returned from his short spell at Spurs? He was jet-heeled compared to his time with us... Needless to say, it didn't last long.

What about the stories of how you could order a full breakfast at Finch Farm? I can't remember which player told that story.

How many ex-players get coaching roles despite never really achieving much in their careers? Fuckin Jeffers was the finishing coach and he never scored 10 league goals in a single season in his entire career!!!

Why the fuck did we bring back Jose Baxter? A player who never did anything and threw away his chances to be a pro footballer due to a series of poor life choices!!

What do we expect with this softly, softly, "It's okay 'cos he's one of us" type bullshit?!?!

Leighton Baines aside – he was a quality player. So was Duncan and he was my childhood hero, along with Kanchelskis, but which other club allows an ex-player to stay on as assistant manager under 4 different managers? None that I know of.

It's just bizarre. I'm actually starting to think that, if we'd got relegated in 1998, it might have been a good thing. A complete reset of the club from top to bottom.

I wasn't even all that pissed off yesterday because, well, we've seen it all before. We'll beat Wolves and grind out a point against one of the big boys and around and around we go. Just like the last 25 years.

Battle for 4th place, no, but realistically I think this season is going to be mid table.

The next 2 months of fixtures will determine the fight and spirit of this squad. Rafa has his biggest managerial challenge of his career.

But now for Wolves..

Moshiri seems as lost owning a football club as Ellis Short, Randy Lerner, Tony Fernandez etc. I guess he's now just focussed on staying in the Premier League, building a stadium and selling up. For that bold ambition, I look forward to the December announcement of the season-ticket price rises.

In my lifetime, the only clubs evolving into dynasties have been Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal – all led by managers who were from the one-in-a-thousand bracket – Busby, Shankly and Wenger.

Beyond that, the maverick but fatally flawed Brian Clough worked miracles at Derby County and Nottingham Forest only for his personal demons to fail him.

The point is, beyond Man City and Chelsea, every club in the country is looking for such a manager and it's pot luck.

No “plan” exists at any board, beyond finding the next Shankly et al, hence the failings of umpteen billionaire owners who haven't got lucky.

There is an argument that our bad luck has been offset by not being relegated like others, although the new football stadium curse will almost certainly address that.

Without ownership by a country, as per Newcastle Utd, we are doomed to living in mediocre central and there isn't a single thing we can do about it.

Look no further than the players, as they continue to underperform, they continue to cost the fans money.

Sure I will watch the next game and the game after that. But do I expect anything different from before? Not a chance.

This club is rotten from top to bottom. Just don't let it ruin your lives.

I've felt like that for at least the last 5 years. I wonder how many others feel the same because EFC have a way of wearing you down.

Like everyone else here, I watch, listen, shout, scream – but I can't do much else about it. I was pissed-off and shell-shocked for an hour or so last night but that was it.

Once a Blue, always a Blue – but on weekends like this, I feel like Woody Allen in the opening scene of Stardust Memories …. there's just no way out!!!

Link

Note: I went out for a half hour run when Liverpool were 0-2 up. The Wirral streets / roads were so empty, I thought another lockdown had been announced. God knows how many prawn sandwiches were being eaten.

We all know the squad is thin and lacking quality in important areas. Take 3 of your best players out with injury, add 3 or 4 players lacking form or carrying knocks, and we are going to struggle. No excuse for not playing with guts and heart but an uphill task.

What we need is a period of stability in the club and people calling for the manager's head need to come up with an alternative.

It's a long-term project but Everton FC will prevail because of us! COYB

We were lucky last season that Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison were available for the majority of the season but still struggled when the Doucouré & Allan partnership was disrupted by injury. Another injury to one of our first choice eleven could prove catastrophic.

One or two signings in January will not be enough to cover the gaps in the squad.

The response on the field to Watford will be revealing.

Top 6, a European place, a long cup run is extra work and upsetting their comfort. Mid-table; the majority at Everton are happy with that, because that is what they want to achieve,

The crisis is that Rafa is not at Everton to 'survive' by achieveing a mid-table position and is confronting those that accept and want it. He is currently encountering resistance,

If there's one good thing to come out of this article, it's your link to Stardust Memories. I'm a big fan of Woody Allen but never seen that film. I'll now make sure I do.

It has been a lousy weekend, showing how poor our progress has been in the Moshiri era, despite the profligate spending – so glad to help with the Woody Allen link.

(The girl on the other train was a young Sharon Stone in an early role.)

Coming back to the Everton theme, Woody also made a film called, “Play it Again, Sam” – a very good movie – but maybe not in an Everton context.

Our depth in central midfield and upfront has been exposed with these injuries with no sign of this changing quickly. Our first 11 isn't bad when all are fit and firing but we are not going to see that until January at the earliest at this rate. By which point we could easily be in a relegation battle, and I'm not convinced any of our team have the stomach for that kind of fight!

When the spine of your team is as poor as ours is (with who is available), then make no bones about it this is a bottom half of the table team at best.

I am really concerned this year more than others with the state of the club and, come January, I'm not convinced we are going to make the signings to turn this round. Especially with the likes of Newcastle now coming on board to spend money.

Bananas.
Does that work better?

Lost count of the times we had to pay to loan out for 2 or 3 years just to run out contracts for players that cost millioms. Paying off millions to failed managers. Allowing the last guy to leave for nothing, which must have been in his contract.

It's not over yet either. There's still Sigurdsson, Tosun and no doubt lwobi in a couple years all set to join the not so freebie club. £100M worth of players, plus £60M in wages. With what its cost to pay off managers contracts. Losing on Sandro, Bolasie, Walcott, Bernard, James... as in big wages plus giving them away for nothing.

We tried, Moshiri tried. But failed. Failed to break us into Europe. Failed to raise our profile. In fact he could just so easily have put us out of business.

The new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock will save him. Just about. That will be his legacy. As l said, as huge as that is. Just about.

Unfortunately next summer, unless Usmanov finds another backhanded way to bail us out we will not be able to afford the gamble to bring in expensive signings and will have to continue to balance the books with the sales of Calvert-Lewinand Richarlison. I believe Richarlison has 18 months left so 100% we will sell him, probably to PSG. I mean we couldn't allow him to run his contract down to leave on a free, like Mbappe has done. Could we??

Realistically, we never looked in trouble against West Ham, despite their possession figures, until they nicked one and did a classic Moyes on us. We had enough chances to be well ahead before they scored. Against Watford, we imploded after twice leading.

Obviously, it's easy to say we've been unlucky but, even without Calvert-Lewin and with the lump they call Rondon ambling about like an amiable hippo, we look capable of at least a lower mid-table finish. Just one point against Watford would have put us temporarily into fourth, and one more goal for Liverpool yesterday would have put us 7th.

I know, ifs and buts, and we are looking really poor at times. And there is a deep problem at the club which has been there, in my opinion, since Moyes left and took with him any kind of fight and pride in the shirt, which has rarely been seen since.

Long-term, someone needs to take hold of the club and shake it up both on and off the pitch. We need leaders, sadly absent both on the board and in the squad. We're not going to challenge the Top 3, they're in a different league and I'd be surprised if even the "richest club in the world" is going to get anywhere near that level over the next few years, but there's no reason why we shouldn't be challenging the Top 6.

That was a grim but accurate read. Having said that, injuries and other stumbling blocks have hit us hard. They show how vulnerable the club is.

I have said for a long time, there are players who lack technical ability, in particular, passing and ball control. If there was ever a time for getting back to basics, this is it. Do them right and things will improve.

We thought when Moshiri came in and promising to spend and stop us being a museum of memories are hopes would at last be realized. He within months sacked Martinez and brought in Koeman with a new DOF Steve Walsh, and we were all excited, spending money was no object and this was the beginning of a new era a new dawn.

Sadly, like all our other new dawns that have appeared over the last 5 years they evaporated very quickly. Since the disaster that was Koeman and Walsh, no lessons have been learned we kept on changing managers who were buying expensive players who the majority would never ever have got into a Top 4 squad. Yet somehow we believed these under performing players would transform into something most had never been ie top players.

So we over the last 5 years have assembled the most expensive misfits that this club has had the misfortune to put together. So much are they misfits that nobody wanted to buy any of these players when it became apparent that they weren't good enough. So we sent most on loan but ended paying most of their wages.

Can anybody tell me another club that has loaned players out yet pays most of their wages? Then, after these players were sent on loan, most clubs didn't want to renew another loan deal so they came back here to see out their contracts, and we still have 4 or 5 doing that now.

So, because of our reckless spending, we now are in breach of FFP rules which has and will curtail our spending. We are also building a new stadium which will take a lot of money, so will reduce our ability to spend in the coming years.

Added to the fact that our academy doesn't seem fit for purpose. So is it any wonder that our fans are now even losing hope that things will change?

So, Mr Moshiri, you have pumped in £450 million to take this club backwards, and I would suggest that you and your financial backer, Mr Usmanov, stop treating Everton as a plaything and get in and make it work, like your other successful businesses.

Similarly, there is absolutely no doubt that Benitez knows his stuff. He has organised and won with many different outfits.

We are left with the players. But look at King. Useless with us but a hat trick for Watford? That does not figure and we already know that many of the players have the quality to do well elsewhere.

So what explains Everton's apparently unique predicament? We not only collapse quite regularly. We are routinely outplayed by just about any other team from the bottom half.They lack our quality players but have a commitment and intensity that we have lacked for at least a decade.

Whatever is wrong, it originates at Finch Farm. Our players (whoever they are) turn up without determination, team spirit and collective will.

Reading these pages for years, the standard answer is "Kenwright" which makes no sense whatsoever. We turn good players into bad. We have manager after manager. But we still turn out half-hearted teams who fall to bits constantly.

It seems to me that EFC suffer from a sentimental attachment to dinosaurs; until Finch Farm is levelled and rebuilt, we will continue in this limbo.

I read your post and got a bit of heart and a lift from it regarding we won't be in a relegation battle.

Then I looked at the reality of the squad and what it consists of – the lack of a leader and a fighter on the field, hardly any substitutes to come in and do a competent job – and I realise that relegation is a real possibility; we will be closer to the bottom positions by January.

I'm coming down off the ledge and by Wednesday, I'll be back to thinking we've got a shout of 6th or 7th, the FA Cup and Europe! On a serious note, the threadbare squad biting us early as well as mentality. Let's hope we snap out quickly.

Mike Gaynes, you make a good point about leadership. Not just that we don't have a lot, but positional. Seamus gives us a bit, Allan to a degree, but we don't have that true leader in the sense. And not enough of them.

I'm more a fan of the captain being a central player. Not a centre-forward or wide player. Centre-back or centre midfield and with the right individual, the Keeper. I don't know if you meant it, but I think just about all you call out are a mix of those positions?

I agree, Dale. I think Benitez is going to be "advising" right up to board level as well as down at Finch Farm. And I think it's going to ruffle some far too comfortable feathers. The guy has proven before, he has no interest in being popular.

"I believe Richarlison has 18 months left so 100% we will sell him, probably to PSG. I mean we couldn't allow him to run his contract down to leave on a free, like Mbappe has done. Could we??"

Leaving aside the Mbappe case, I'm not sure about the argument to sell a player before end of contract (say with one year left on contract (eg, Year 4 of a five-year contract), in order to gain a fee (unless the player has been "unsettled" by another club and is more trouble than he's worth).

Other things being equal, selling early recoups some of the initial fee paid. But, at the same time, you still have to buy a replacement of equivalent quality earlier (unless you have equivalent quality coming through the ranks). So where is the advantage? And you're in for agent fees earlier than you would have been?

If the logic of selling early is sound, then by extension shouldn't you sell in Year 3, even Year 2?! Maybe there is logic in selling with a year still on the contract? And / but maybe there is no logical extension to Years 3 and 2?

I assume the intricacies of amortisation have no bearing??

For you to say Moshiri and Kenwright, as our owners for decades, have "nothing to do with it" and then spend the rest of the article quite rightly coruscating everything done, or not done, by everyone those same owners have employed is frankly bizarre as far as I'm concerned.

The deep pool of mediocrity created by Kenwright and now deepened by Moshiri will be well more difficult and time-consuming to drain than itsy-bitsy Bramley-Moore Dock, I fear.

Kenwright, and now his puppet, have overseen decades of steady decline and you still make excuses for him!!?

Rafa Benitez will be a bigger disaster for this club than Koeman was.

Coupled with the ineptitude of Kenwright and Brands, and the inevitable 3 way fighting over whatever money is being spent on, the real crisis point isn’t now, it’s 12 months from now.

No, it was down to losing two goals at least to primary school defending. One of them a defender failed to clear to safety and dicked-about instead, the other was three so-called professional sportsmen getting in each-other's way.

I'm not having a go at him (because he had a good first half) but had Gordon put that chance away when we were 1:0 after a couple of minutes, it could all have been very different.

There's no crisis though, just a very bad day at the office. Next game can't come quickly enough.

I though there was purpose in the Moyes era. We had a respectable team with real players who tried and cared - Cahill, Gravesen, Jagielka, Distin, Baines, Arteta, Saha, amongst many others. They were just unfortunate not to win anything, let alone the FA Cup, despite leading in the early stages of the game.

I think Martinez showed intent, but was let down by the quality of the playing staff at the back.

Since then, it has been utterly abysmal, apart from some flash in the plan moments under all of the previous managers.

United missed two early chances while the away team popped theirs in. It is all about teamwork.
We lost our way as a team but the two key points are that our defence regularly gets sucked over to our left once Digne has been caught upfield. It happened at Aston Villa amongst other occasions. Everyone moves over and invariably a man is left on the far post. I think it is this zonal system. If they were man-marking, it would be less likely to happen.

King made runs across our box and responsibility for him was passed on as he progressed. It caused chaos.

The other big problem is a simple one. Two in midfield is difficult even when the machine that is Doucouré is fit. Rafa needs to play a compact three there, and I would suggest that we should dump Rondon and play a false No 9. Drop one of the wingers to the bench.

A big worry is Godfrey. He isn't getting up high enough at set plays, and seems to have no idea where to play. His dynamism has gone and he seems to have nothing between his ears.

However, with decent management further up the chain, somebody might (if they didn't) have asked for reasons for the sudden change in on-field fortunes before replacing him.

How can anycompany get itself in a position whereby it spends so much that it is now forbidden to spend at all due to FFP? All Companies do forecasts (ie, plans) and most large ones do at least 5 year forecasts. What was in Everton's forecast?

How could they not see this occurring years before it did? Were they forecasting to generate loads more revenue to offset the spend, if so how (surely they weren't budgeting to make the Champions League).

We can continue to change manager all we want but our recent history has shown this gets us nowhere. The problems at this Club start at the very top and Moshri (who is meant to be an accountant?) gets way too little scrutiny. Why aren't the press asking greater questions about how this financial mismanagement can occur.

All our Senior Management positions appear to have been internal promotions for years which would be fine if the Club was a breeding ground for success. We need a new CEO sourced from another Club and we need a long term plan with a destination in mind.

Any success for us is not going to be achieved in a hurry and we need incremental improvement and milestones within the plan. We have been treading water at great cost since Moshri took over and we have literally gone no where.

Unless the top of the Club gets sorted we will be in the same place we are now (or worse) in a few years and no change in Manager will make a difference. All the money in the world can be spent but, with no plan, there will still be no success. (Look at Man Utd for an example!)

Since Roberto Martinez was appointed Everton manager, the club has suffered 43 Premier League home defeats with 23 different clubs leaving Goodison with maximum points.

On a side note whilst researching the stats I saw that Everton's first home defeat after Moshiri became the owner, was against Arsenal in March 2016, a week after we had beaten Chelsea in the FA Cup at Goodison. Man of the match was a certain Alex Iwobi who made his debut for the Gunners and scored in that victory for Arsenal.

The BBC reported:

He boasts footballing pedigree as his uncle is former Bolton and Nigeria legend Jay-Jay Okocha.

Iwobi was brimming with confidence in attack and had the most shots of any of his team-mates.

He linked well with Welbeck and showed composure and strength to hold off the challenge of Ramiro Funes Mori before scoring his goal.
Man of the match - Alex Iwobi

Everton have now won just one of their past nine Premier League games at Goodison Park.

They have the league's worst defensive record at home, conceding 28 goals – already the most they have shipped in a 38-game Premier League season.

The Toffees' record is worse than bottom club Aston Villa, who have let in 25 at Villa Park.

They have kept only two clean sheets at home in the league this season and their Goodison Park record reads: played 16, won four, drawn four, lost eight.

Everton manager Roberto Martinez: "We were second best. I thought Arsenal had more bite and intensity.

"It was so disappointing, the contrast in performance from last Saturday [the 2-0 FA Cup victory over Chelsea] is difficult to explain.

"We never got a platform into the game, we were ineffective, we had second thoughts in every action and Arsenal were, in every single aspect of the performance, better than us."

Following Saturday's debacle, we have to hope that the current manager can address the issues that were laid bare for all to see and that he doesn't do a "Martinez"!

We are and have been an average club for many years because of the laid back attitude of the people running it.

We all thought Moshiri would change that but, with the controversial appointment of Benitez it would appear we are no better now than the we were in the Moyes era.

Granted this season's walking wounded hasn't helped him but persisting with the walking dead (Rondon) on Saturday did little to help his credibility.

The meltdown in the second half came only weeks after a similar meltdown at Villa Park and in each case Everton were looking good for at least a share of the spoils, as was the Hammers game also before the late setback.

The confidence and leadership is at the bottom of the bucket at the moment and one hopes that is quickly reversed at Wolves.

Having Richarlison back is a big plus but the defensive discipline has gone to the dogs.

Rafa's reign may indeed be a short one after all.

The hurricane of ridiculous spending has now subsided leaving us with tight FFP restraints.

The injuries to Mina and Doucouré are arguably just as bad or not worse than Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison.

If Mina and the Doucouré are fit then we aren't losing that game 5-2 on Saturday.

With those two out, our imposing physical presence has gone completely.

It's easy to say play the kids but we did that in 1997-98 and we almost got relegated.

Rondon is not the player he was at Newcastle; age and two years in a poor Chinese league has done for him and his match fitness and he's clearly not the player Benitez trusted up in the North East.

Lucas Digne looks a million miles away from the player he was in his first season under Silva, when he linked up so well with Bernard on the left there were murmurings of the new "Bainaar" but Digne looks totally gone now too as a player.

Totally agree. You've really nailed the nub of the problem. The question for me is “How do we solve it?"

We as supporters can't get rid of Moshiri, appoint a new CEO, etc – much as I'd like to! Who would they be? Where would we find them?

And the biggest question of all: “Who would appoint them?” The same bunch that are already there? Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas! They are not going to give up their nice cosy earners easily.

What we can do as supporters is to make it as uncomfortable as possible for them by protest and publicity at every possible opportunity.

There's 38,000 at Goodison every home game despite the crap that has been served up over the past 25 years. That's considerable supporter power and it needs something drastic to overthrow the moribund status quo we have here.

Martinez wasn't let down by the ‘quality of the playing staff at the back'... they were let down by a lack of defensive coaching, by a lack of coaching at set-pieces, and piss-poor levels of fitness, again, as a result of an inadequate training regime.

Martinez was another manager who, when he stamped his mark on the team, stubbornly stood by and watched a defensively good team disintegrate. The man was a footballing fool.

There is a need to match the team and the coach. If we don't, it will never work. We've tried several coaches with this squad (generally speaking) and it hasn't worked. Let's back Rafa to completely change the squad (including backroom drongos) to make a total change in the team persona!

I'd sell Keane, Iwobi, Davies, Rondon as well as the usuals and start again. Sell the usuals and bring in some genuine players including some of the youngsters.

Time for a change!

(a) The most loyal fans in Football

or

(b) The most gullible.

For what it is worth, I think it is (a) because, season after season, the same thing is said: "We can't be worse than last season" ... but yes, another manager, another clean slate, another season of dogshit football – and embarrassing dogshit at that.

There are Evertonians who have been born, married and have kids of their own decked out in Everton kits who have seen us win Jack Schitt. Then you have the buffoon Kenwright spouting rubbish about other clubs looking to Everton to see how we do it.

Other clubs look at us to see how not to do it but the fat prick just doesn't care – he's lined his pockets, he doesn't pay to get in, he doesn't sup his tea from a plastic cup or have the fat out of a hot meat pie running down his chin. He hasn't a clue – not one iota of a clue – and he is prompting Moshiri with his experience in football...

His experience is waxing lyrical about long since dead Everton players who could still put up a better show than this pile of festering shite.

You shoot yourself in the foot with “a defensively good team” – they weren't.

Any defensive strength the team allegedly had was a result of the entire unit being setup to defend. Once the team was set up to attack, the defensive issues of our defenders were magnified a thousand fold.

The real issue was Martinez wasn't given comparable monies to clubs he was trying to emulate to bin Howard, Coleman, Baines, Jagielka and rid the squad of festering Moyes-mongers like Pienaar, Osman etc in one fell swoop.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel for the likes of Alcaraz, Kone, Cleverley and McGeady could only end one way.

Martinez wasn't perfect but, for a brief shining moment, he showed this club the way out of its stupor. Sacking him instead of telling fans to fuck off was Moshiri's first and most expensive mistake.

For me, Moyes was the best manager we have had since Howard Kendall Mk 1 (apart from Big Joe's short stint).

At a time when we had no money, he stabilised the team and we were just about consistently between 4th and 8th place at the end of most seasons. We also had fit players as he took no shite from them. Yes, he had his failings and we seldom beat the top teams... but then not many did!

Someone earlier mentioned a great game under Martinez in his first season v Arsenal. That first half was the best I have seen an Everton team play for years. Fluid passing football but there was no goal threat.

With Martinez, it looked like we trained on pitches with no goals. Plus in modern football with so many goals scored from set-pieces, it was criminal not to practice them.

Would we be conceding from so many corners with Moyes in charge? I think not. He is doing what he does with West Ham and they are better than us with better players. They have Antonio and we have Rondon, for fuck's sake!

I know Blues on here hate Moyes for the way he left and it was a disgrace... but people were after him going for the last few seasons. I would swap those seasons for the utter shite we have got now.

Moyes never had money to spend and was never even backed at Man Utd.

We are all entitled to our views and mine is that we have done worse since Moyes was here every season bar Martinez's first one which was a result of his footballing flair coupled with Moyes's fitness and defensive nouse still remaining in the team.

Like I said, tin hat on!

Martinez's first season did give us all hope that he was the right man at the right place but his final season was a disaster, as my earlier post alluded to.

Everton have now won just one of their past nine Premier League games at Goodison Park.

They have the league's worst defensive record at home, conceding 28 goals – already the most they have shipped in a 38-game Premier League season.

After that defeat at home to Arsenal, his team went on to record one win from nine, including the Semi-Final at Wembley, before Roberto was put out of his misery. I can't see how the board or owner listened to the fans over the actual facts of the matter.

I'd better put my tin hat on too, because I agree with you. Sure, Moyes could be frustratingly negative with his subs and set-up at times, but we also played some good football, classic Everton School of Science stuff at times.

West Ham are blessed with a number of stand-out players but then so are we. But they are a much superior team right now.

My hope is that Rafa – given time – will do for us what Moyes has done at West Ham, but with better players once he gets a budget.

By the time we're inthe new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock, we'll be a decent side, maybe even winning a bit of silverware. I just hope I'm still alive to see it!

Moshiri had to sack Martinez, he'd clearly lost the players which was never more evident than the night we were humiliated by Allardyce's Sunderland team.

The mistakes Moshiri has made have included pretty much every managerial appointment since then – and both of the Directors of Football too.

Everton's defensive record in Moyes's last season was the fourth best in the Premier League, better even than Man Utd's Champions side. Coleman was 25-26 and Baines 28-29? You would have binned those two, at that age?

Alcaraz, Kone and Cleverley were all ‘Martinez' men, just like Condom is Rafa's man. He'd have bought that flotsam
no matter how much money he had.

Kone was also a year older than Baines and Alcaraz; the Sicknote Kid, was two years older. But hey, don't let that get in the way.

And, yes, for one beautiful, fleeting moment, we were all seduced into thinking Martinez was the Messiah, when in actual fact he was just a very naughty boy.

My brother in law is a Sunderland fan, we have an agreement not to mention him – he would froth at the mouth.

We are on the same points as Man Utd, Leicester and Arsenal with the worst injury situation in recent history. We have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on too many occasions in recent years.

What we really need now is to get the 12th man to rally around the manager and support the team through this difficult patch.

I know its hard because Ive spent all weekend kicking the cat, the walls and anything else I could find but we have to find belief within ourselves no matter how tough it is.

The players became nervous wrecks on Saturday because they picked up the negative vibes from the crowd.

We are all disillusioned with the lack of planning and poor decision-making from the top and the paucity of the squad but we cant blame Benitiez for that although we can and should blame him for inflicting Rondon on us and some poor decisions on Saturday.

However, let's not turn our situation into a crisis, like the media would love us to do. Let's show the manager and the team some support until we can get reinforcements in and players back from injury.

A "phenomenal" first season, based on Moyes's core team, but steadily downhill after that. He was a Bojo football manager – everything was rosy in the garden, when clearly the shit was hitting the fan.

I'm pretty certain that we would have gone down under him but for the players openly defying his tactics and starting to play to their strengths instead of playing aimless tippy-tappy football for possession's sake.

No organisation, no realism, no defensive nous, no attention to detail... but he still managed to convince some fans (and still does apparently).

Never been so glad to see the back of a manager as him. Moshiri got that one 100% right.

Pre-Kenwright, we had won more titles than Man Utd. Now, their fans look at Van Gaal as a failure as he only won the FA Cup, and Mourinho as he only won the Europa League. Meanwhile, we talk about Moyes and Martinez – who won nothing.

It's not a matter of "Who was best?" it's a matter of which era (be it the manager's ineptness or the ownership) was the least-bad?

Overall, Moyes's era was the least-bad, but pre-Kenwright, we'd never be having such debates. Bingham, Lee, Walker, etc failed – end of story.

Jay #81, the strangest comment I've seen on this entire thread is yours. "The players became nervous wrecks on Saturday because they picked up the negative vibes from the crowd."???

Really? Do tell. By all means, explain how you know that. Especially since the team fell apart at the moment that the crowd was at its most joyous, celebrating Richarlison's goal.

Unfortunately for me, it's been the same thing, year over year, year-in and year-out. The exact same, season over and over and over:

1) No battle for the Top 4.
2) No real chance in the cups.
3) Some exhilarating wins and some crushing losses.
4) Players come and go.
5) Managers come and go.

We've been consistently mediocre for over two decades now... 20 years. That's a long time.

I'd really love to tell you that I had an answer for a way out of this mess but I don't.

We need to start the re-build in January by bringing in young players with the potential to take us to the next level. (I thought this was why Brands was brought in... silly me!)

I know we are strapped for cash but surely this is where the scouting skills come in. We all know where we need strengthening and little seems to be coming from Finch Farm so start now. Identify potential targets and start wheeling and dealing.

For what it's worth, I think we need 2 full-backs, a central defender, 2 creative midfielders with skill and pace, and a striker. Silly, I know... but Christmas is round the corner.

Agreed. I love these ridiculous "blame the crowd" remarks.

Last week versus WHU people were complaining the crowd were too quiet. Now the crowd are too noisy. Is there some kind of happy medium decibel level we have to sustain to positively impact the players?

Or is there maybe a correlation in that the crowd noise is a reaction to the team's performance?

1) Throw away points to inferior opposition, especially at home.
2) Repeatedly mess up with poor results when we have a good chance to shift up to the leading group. (Infuriating!)
3) Carry too many injuries, and too many players who fail to perform to a decent level when returning from illness or injury (eg, Gomes, Godfrey).
4) Persist with zonal marking, when it clearly isn't working.
5) Place little trust in young, untried but energetic players who may make a difference off the bench. (Two sub keepers on the bench – the point is……?)

These are just five areas, there are more. I think that outpouring of rage after the Watford game had been coming, but at very least, the manager must be given the support of all concerned to tackle the cyclical crises we have faced season on season.

That is from the late Sir John Moores.

I don't buy in to that crowd theory Jay – there is no club in the land that has a better or more loyal support than Everton as is shown by the anguish and utter bewilderment that the club, with such magnificent and pioneering history, is in the present position thanks to the deliberate and calculated meddling of the ownership of the last 30 years – we are entitled to grumble when things are wrong, and they are wrong.

If the players are happy to receive the adulation when we see them performing – a rarity in recent years might I add then they have to face the brickbats too – and, as noted by Mike G, they fell apart when the crowd was with them on Saturday.

Since Moyes, we have had Koeman, Martinez, Ancelotti, Silva plus others, and now Benitez. Benitez has not had enough time to prove to be as useless as all the others. Just what happens?

1. Plenty of money, most of which has been wasted.
2. Not a single player who is a "dynamic" leader.
3. A wealthy owner who has probably saved us financially, but has only been able to appoint "Buffoons" to take charge.
4. A youth program that has not produced an "outstanding" player in the last 5 years.
5. An inability to get the best potential out of players. Vlasic and Lookman as examples. We have let them leave too soon.
6. Absolutey terrible signings who we have paid far too much for. There are too many to name them all.
7, 8, 9, 10 – your choices.

I am only a fan. One of the most ardent. I am also as confused as most other fans. I used to be able to say such things as "We just need a right-back, or a midfielder, or a centre-forward"...

Now, we need a major operation, but I don't even know what that means. I am as confused as anybody. Basically we need a magician, or for all those of the spiritual persuasion, "A Saviour".

I think I will start praying...
.

The first one to say - because I want to win things for this club. Then ask: What are you prepared to do to make that happen? The answer to that one must be – whatever it takes.

If anyone answers the first question with a different answer, they should be put on the transfer list immediately.

Football is about hunger – hunger to win your individual battle with an opponent, hunger to score goals, keep clean sheets, win games, fight when losing, be as one with your team mates, and – most of all – to win trophies. If you're not in it for that, then why are you here?

The same applies to the boardroom – hunger to be the best team. The team that wins trophies. Not once in 25 years but on a consistent basis. Nothing else matters. If it's not that, why are you here??

ps: There was also a lot of left over anger from Carlo's debacle last season in that reaction on Saturday. I just hope we get back on track soon but then again does it matter to those who can make it happen?

It matters to the fans – a few thousand will go to Wolves and give their all for 90 minutes, as they always do – home and away.

Sadly the only ambition that the owners have is to stay in the Premier League.

I suppose first I should say that short-term I support Rafa for stability, non-culpability for our current situation, and for his activism in trying to address structural problems and not seeing the barriers and making retirement plans.

That being said, when you lose like that and the talk starts up and it is a historically rhyming tune that played last season, there is sufficient cause for uproar. We all get to be as shocked as we want and throw a fit and then return to the table to see some fairly obvious and limited ways forward.

I am pissed off that Rafa went old boys on the subs. And waiting this long for Rondon is fucking futile. But take a second and figure that Rafa is no fool and try to see how he would think those were the best moves?

Something isn't right with some players, some of that has to do with the poor management that was in place to develop them; and now, upon seeing their failure, we're having a go at their character as footballers that represent a special area for all of us. Are we being realistic there?

This club still has the core to get right and be what it is in our sentimental mind's eye. We need to somehow figure out how to apply positive pressure and stay behind those who are in fact working to improve us and I'm afraid to say just grind our fucking teeth on the rest until we are out of this jammy dodgy donut of a situation.

While there is no doubt that sometimes the nervousness of the crowd can transfer to the players, what made the crowd nervous was our lack of ability to hold onto the ball. This gave Watford confidence and they won all the aerial battles all over the park.

They were more physical than we were and, once they got level, they could smell blood, and the ineptness of our players to do even the basic things.

Also, this team did exactly the same thing at Aston Villa, where we folded and let in 3 goals in a 10-minute spell, so not the first time we have capitulated this season.

Having lost our last home game and throwing away a lead with 12 minutes left, is it any wonder this crowd get nervous? We were 2nd best for long periods against Southampton, Burnley and West Ham and could have lost all 3 games.

So we are seeing a side who can play in fits and starts, both good and bad, so how can you have any confidence when, 9 games into a season, we haven't put together a decent 45 minutes – never mind 90 minutes?

I accept that Doucouré, Mina, Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin missing from the starting line-up is bound to have an effect... but half our goals conceded have been from dead-ball situations — something that Silva had when he was manager, and something Benitez needs to solve very quickly.

I agree. I wasnt blaming the crowd but I do feel that contributed to poor players falling apart. They know they are not that good and, if nervousness creeps in, they fall apart as they did. I take your point, Mike G, but even at 2-1, the nerves were showing.

Good players lift the crowd and vice versa, the atmosphere lifts the players, but until we get better players, we need to rally around the manager and those wearing the shirt – no matter what our opinion is of them – and just hope that Moshiri gets a proper plan together with professional football people who know what they are doing. Les Reed of Southampton springs to mind as an example.

I cannot accept that the crowd in any way contributed to the shite we saw on Saturday.

When we see imposters wearing our shirt and getting paid a fortune, we have every right to vent our feelings.

Football is all about passion and the moment. If these players put 50% of the commitment the supporters put in, we'd win the league.

Our whole week, if not longer, is ruined by performances like that. The players might be upset that evening. In the case of Iwobi, not at all!

A double shift at Alder Hey and loss of a weeks wages paid to charity might focus this shower of shit.

Simultaneously, they will say "Give Big Dunc the job". I hope they do.

Nobody in their right mind would have Saturday's team as first choice but it is what it is. We have had atrocious luck with injuries, loss of form and poor recruitment.

All I am saying is we shouldn't allow it to become toxic.

There are two clubs in the premier league in the Top 4 who don't use a big bustling #9 and yet manage to score multiple goals. We are not blessed with having enough players of their standard, but it is senseless playing an unfit player who is not Premier League standard, hoping he we will get better. Reminds me of my wife playing the same numbers on her Lotto ticket every week, hoping to win but not surprised when she doesn't.

We are in a crisis, that is defined in a dictionary as: "A crucial turning point in the progress of a series of events as in politics or business."

Bill Kenwright is getting most of the blame and deserves it prior to the takeover; before the takeover, he said he wanted someone with money to run the club and he got it.

Since then, we are on our 6th manager plus a couple of interim managers thrown in, and the majority of the managers have been given plenty of money to stabilize the team and squad.

This has not happened, and we are now in trouble with the last manager we hired, who seems to have the right idea how the club should have been run from the beginning, but is the one manager out of the six with his background that cannot afford to make many mistakes before the knives come out, and so far, he has not been given the same financial backing as his predecessors.

All us older supporters (I'm since 1954) remember John Moores's memorable saying, and we were known as the Mersey Millionaires then. Today, there are a lot more billionaires running Premier League clubs and the competition is a lot stronger.

It is no longer the owner putting the money in. Through various rules put in by the league, it is how the club is run on the football side of things and the three people responsible for that are: (a) the owner, (b) the director of football, and (c) the football manager.

The present manager is in a rather unfortunate position in that he has not received the financial backing, and a number of supporters did not want him, and he has more of the "wait and see" support before they will back him.

The players must shoulder some of the blame as they are supposed to be professionals, but it is the manager's responsibility to pick a team and set out the tactics and make sure they are giving 100+% for the shirt they are wearing.

The club may apologize for poor performances, but that means nothing to the 35 to 40 thousand people who pay to watch plus the thousands of media watchers; they don't want apologies they want action and, most of all, they want to see players fit – not players playing to get fit, and not players at the club who will never get fit.

Rant over until next Monday.

I'd say we are the Virgil Starkwell of the Premier League.

Saturday was bitterly disappointing but, given the quality of players that have come through the door since Moyes departed, and given the injuries to the spine of the team, it's not that surprising in some ways.

If fit, Mina, Doucouré, Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin all start.

I cannot think of any other club who would put a Director of Football on the Board of Directors in such a short space of time on the back of a very mediocre recruitment performance.

I harp back to the start of Silva's second season, Zuma and Gana leave and Sidibé and Gbamin arrive. We look to sign Zaha and get Iwobi instead. You could not make it up.

If we take a further step back to the Walsh & Koeman era, the recruitment was even worse. Martinez brough Romelu Lukaku to the club but how many of the Wigan acquisitions worked out? Robles? Alcaraz? Kone? McCarthy in year one, absolutely... but thereafter?

I take all your points except #5. Failing to realize potential is not necessarily the fault of the club or the managers, and letting them leave is not always the wrong thing to do just because some fans think they might come good in the future.

Lookman got his chances -- first with us, then at Leipzig and Fulham, now at Leicester -- and he has not succeeded. Hopefully he has matured at 24 and will realize his gifts, but it hasn't happened yet.

Vlasic never got a proper chance with us. He then succeeded at a lower level, stepped back up into the Premier League, and so far has done absolutely nothing at West Ham to justify a €30 million transfer fee. Would he have made it if he'd stayed?

I actually think our record of letting young players leave is pretty good. Not many have done much to make us rue their departure. Barkley? Vaughan? Lundstram? Rodwell? Gibson? Pennington? Dowell? All names we gushed over at various times, but have we ever regretted letting any of them go?

I can only think of one in recent years that keeps me up nights. Antonee Robinson.

I look at the situation now and ask should I be attached to an organisation where the worst paid player in the first team squad earns more in a week than the better paid fans earn in a year, and I wonder...

The question is "Why?".

The simplistic answer is Martinez was crap but bringing in Barry, Lukaku, Deulofeu, McCarthy and transforming Stones and Barkley suggests there is more to it.

I can't for the life of me join in with the Martinez beating because the rest of his buys were shite despite costing the Premier League equivalent of 5 bob.

Also, remember that only the best international outfit in the world, France, have stopped his Belgium side. A clear demonstration that, with decent players, he ain't "crap".

Andrew Ellams @78... see above.

Ray Roche @79,

Coleman and Baines have never been more than mid-table at best; they are examples of a desperate fanbase lauding ordinary to extraordinary.

The acquisitions of Lukaku, Barry and Deulofeu demonstrate Martinez had more about him than going back to uncle Dave Whelan at Wigan, even if it has been conveniently erased from memory that two of those mentioned were loans.

He made a transformation unimagined under the previous regime but the idea he could repeat the trick in subsequent seasons was laughable. He needed monies akin to the peer group he aspired to join and Moshiri was as thick as some fans in not seeing it.

Bit of a stretch that like.

Managers can only go with what they've got and, in our case, that's not much at the moment. Sure they decide game plans, tactics etc but the saying goes that "a plan never survives the first contact with the enemy".

Also, I don't believe Guardiola, Klippety etc would be able to do anything better with this squad. Even the best managers get it wrong sometimes... look at Man City's tactics in the Champions League Final; I'm convinced Guardiola lost them that game. No disrespect to Chelsea, he just got it wrong.

I'm not denying a manager's skill and experience is paramount but it's only one part of the equation.

I think your point about the differences in the salaries of most ordinary fans and the players does lead many to question their loyalty to the cause, and perhaps the fact that, in many fans' daily lives, errors are not tolerated and some will have their livelihoods on the line if they make too many or make major errors that adversly affect the businesses they work for.

It would seem that Premier League footballers and those who manage them can make as many errors as they want without sanction, as they will find another daft club to employ them if and when their contracts are terminated.

As for fans booing, I feel it is up to the individual to display his or her feelings within the bounds of the law. I didn't see yesterday's game but I bet the Man Utd players received one or two boos during and after the match?

He says that Benitez said that he understands what Scousers want to see from their team, but Michael Ball suggests that the type of football we are playing suggests that Benitez doesn't understand what we want.

As Ball says, in nearly all the games we have played, we have been second best in the possession stats and, as he says, having that stat for the home games is not what fans want to see.

Ball also suggests that Benitez is and was always stubborn about zonal marking and that, when he played Everton, we would have Tim Cahill attacking the near post knowing he would have a free header because of Benítez's zonal marking.

He also says our build-up is slow and after the centre-backs passing slowly to each other, it usually ends with one of them just launching it downfield.

He says Everton fans like to see our teams getting in the faces of the opposition and, as he says, we haven't seen much of that under Benitez. Ball suggests Benitez needs to change his style or he thinks we are in for more poor results like Saturday.

As he says, so far, we have been outplayed by teams who were in the bottom half of the league last season, so heaven help us if we adopt the same tactics against the better sides.

During yesterday's match between Barcelona and Real Madrid, the Barca fans were apparently very vocal in support of their team for the whole 90 minutes, but failed to roar on their favourites as their team succumbed to defeat.

Some of those same fans mobbed Koeman's vehicle after the match, showing disdain and anger for their manager. They probably, no definitely, went too far... but booing a poor display isn't the end of the world, is it?

The number of empty seats inside Goodison Park on Saturday at full-time spoke far louder than any fans who remained to boo.

You're confusing the club with individuals. Supporters or fans (fanatics) support the club. People boo when others involved, eg, employees of the club, fail to perform their duty and thus uphold the honor of the club.

By the same token, other fanatics, eg, the Bolsheviks, killed other Bolsheviks who weren't Bolshi enough. Nobody said "You should just happy clap those mediocre Bolsheviks because you're a supporter of Bolshevism" – because they understood the difference between supporting a thing, concept, idea, entity, legend is different than supporting other people who in some respect are presently engaged in its cause.

Referring to Baines and Coleman as “mid-table at best” is ridiculous. That's just my opinion, and as forums are about opinions, I shall leave that to others to expand on.

Whether or not a player is signed on loan or not, they are players that the manager regarded as additions that would improve the squad. Some work; some don't. Some loanees Blind Pugh could see would be a crap idea; some regard the chance to prove their worth and, like Barry, do well.

And don't forget, Lukaku was a club record signing when he joined, so it can't be said that Martinez had no money to spend. He had more than Moyes (apologies for mentioning his name, for those of a nervous disposition).

“As thick as some fans” — name names, Barry!

I can't agree with you at all re Baines. I'd put him head and shoulders above Digne (France) and Shaw (England). 32 goals and 53 assists.

Yes, the manager can only go on what he has got, but he has to manage what he has got. I was trying to offer this manager some excuses in the lack of funding he was given but, at the same time, he is insisting on playing a player who is nowhere match fit and, if fit, will not be up to Premier League standards.

The crowd can accept a young player trying his hardest, but what they can't accept is a seasoned professional #9 not getting a shot on goal and being left on the pitch.

Brian #109,

Last week, Tim Sherwood said that Everton are a mid-table team, and that was before they played West Ham, as Benitez only has the one game plan of defend, and strike from the defense.

I'm not a fan of booing but sometimes a little negative feedback can get the attention of those who perhaps are not getting the situation.

I regard the best left-back I've seen to be Ray Wilson. I can't think of any right now who, apart from Wilson, were significantly better than Baines. Pat van den Hauwe was good but I'd have Baines all day long.

I hope your back is improving. 👍🏻

You are being duplicitous; Lukaku was originally a loan, as was Deulofeu – both integral to the miraculous transformation of that first season.

The odds were off the scale that loans of this quality would pop up every window, providing a solid platform for a season on season Top 4 assault.

I jacked in posting here after beating Man Utd at Old Trafford because it was as plain as the nose on your face that this was not sustainable. We needed a wholesale and immediate clean sweep of the remnants of the Moyes mediocrity crew and it wasn't going to happen without "proper" dough.

Subsequent developments now running into years were just a demonstration of what even "Blind Pugh" 🤣🤣 could see coming – marvellous!

He was known as a talent spotter, finding youngsters and bringing them through to resell at a profit. Where are these players?

Is it because his specialty is South America? The rules are different over here regarding work permits, so does that bring it back to Moshiri and a bad decision again?

Surely Brands knows players from other countries. He has been here 5 years, youngsters he brought in when he first arrived should either be in the first team or sold at profit – but they are not; they have been released or are not going to make the grade. So is that then down to Unsworth?

The whole club from top to bottom is satisfied with mediocrity, just happy to plod along. Will that change with the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock? I very much doubt it.
COYB

I mean you're at the game, the 5th (nb: FUCKING FIFTH!) Watford goal goes in... and you DON'T boo?

Really?

Sorry but, as someone who for most games just quietly mumbles "Tut! For fuck's sake Everton" and/or "Dumb... fucking dumb" I loudly booed the hole off myself on Saturday and felt entirely justified.

And why?

Because the manager, players, coaches, Moshiri etc need to know that performances like that will simply not be tolerated and supporters of this club will never quietly accept a 2-5 defeat at home by relegation favourites with a calm "Oh well, disappointing but I'm sure it was just a blip. Up the Toffees".

Fuck that.

Thoughts inevitably turn to the likes of Rod Belfitt, Bernie Wright, Brett Angell and ‘The Stracq' but – and perhaps it's the passage of time dulling the senses – I think even this lot were marginally better.

Perhaps an older poster (eg, John McFarlane) or a more regular attender (eg, Rob Halligan) could offer their thoughts?

Benitez would not have been my choice for manager, not because of his association with Liverpool but because I considered him yesterday's man and football has moved on. I was underwhelmed to say the least with the signing of Rondon but am fairly sure he won't be in contention when Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin are available

Take your point about young players... but who? Gordon is not a No 9 and throwing Dobbin in at this time may do him more harm than good?

That is what I meant by going with what you've got. Even the best manager in the world can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!!

When I think of the lot across the Park, with decades of goalscorers, and us with our lowly lot. I may be wrong but isn't Lukaku our highest goalscorer in the Premier League era? It's ridiculous, Mediocrity FC.

Nope, not better at all. Very tired of it actually. I've stopped taking the painkillers, sick of them. Till the next game of golf.

I'm sure my dad would agree with you about Ray Wilson, his era.

I thought Moyes came pretty close, bar a couple additions l'm sure would have taken us to the next level. The year we finished 4th was a real head-in-hands moment – we didn't go out and really go for it. I liked a lot of the players Moyes bought in: Jagielka, Distin, Arteta, Fellaini. His striker choices not so much... Beattie and toe bunger Johnson...

Eugene,

I've never booed myself, even when l felt l should l simply growl. You should try it. I'd be aiming my booze at Moshiri, and hope it was still in the bottle and not a plastic cup.

Originally a loan or not, Lukaku became our record signing.

And don't use words like 'duplicitous' at me until you're sure I know what they mean.
😁

Sorry to hear that your back hasn't improved, David. Really troublesome thing.

As for Moyes's strikers, Marcus Bent deserves a mention. 👍🏻

Stuart Barlow wasn't called 'Jigsaw' for nothing. He couldn't hit a barn door, but was he a centre-forward? He was definitely an attacking player.

Actually, I take it all back about Barlow, as he scored a belter of a hat-trick against me before he finally made his name at Everton. Every one a 25-yard screamer, I had absolutely no chance with any of them.

If we produce a top player, we can't keep hold of them. That's a hell of a handicap to overcome; it's going to take a minor (major) miracle.

We keep buying players that the best clubs don't want; that's never going to work.

Your comments are less frequent these days but always worthy of reading.

Here's those ‘Moyes mongers' and a ‘mid table' left back doing the sort of stuff we would give a body part for these days.

Link

Some fans eh

I never really saw Jigsaw as a centre-forward. According to Wikipedia, he scored 10 goals for us in 71 apps – which was a surprise to read as I don't recall him scoring any for us. Maybe the 3 he put past you are included in those 10?

Raymond. Now for the second year in a row, 4th place is up for grabs for whoever is ready for it. We are further away than last season... till we get Doucouré and Dom back.

Marcus Bent was the ultimate ‘run the channels' forward but, give the lad his due, he ran his bollocks off every week.

Rondon couldn't run a bath.

I worked hard all week and had paid £72 for me and my lad to watch that shit-show. It ruined my week and put me in a foul mood.

As such, I felt like I'd earned the right to let the players, manager, coaches and directors know that that performance was unacceptable. Booing rather than happy clapping felt the appropriate method of expressing my feelings.

Didn't Barlow score 2 or 3 (?) to give us an insurmountable lead over Bolton I think (maybe Oldham?) one year... but second half, they turned us over and we lost 2-3 or 3-4 at Goodison.

That's the only time I recall him scoring.

Booing is mightily underrated and should be used more often. It is, though, a communal thing.

I was waiting on Derby on Saturday for a £10 treble (Charlton 4/1; Peterborough 5/2) for £831. When their 1-1 draw came through, I wanted to boo them from my armchair but didn't.

Had I been at the game on Saturday, I would have bowed to no-one in booing. It is the only thing they get. The only thing left that connects them to reality.

Supporters shouldn't boo??? Bollocks!!! If I was at the next home game, I'd boo the fuckers on. That's supporting the club and letting the hired hands know that we do not hold them on pedestals, we hold them to account.

I gave Benitez loads of verbal from the Upper Gwladys Street stand. Obviously he wouldn't have heard me, but it made me feel a damn sight better.

Great that.

Is the footage of them lifting silverware on it's way?

My question is: Why? Why have so few young players been able to reach the potential that was once seen in them? It takes good coaching and inter-personal skills to draw the very best out of young players.

We have all had teachers who somehow could get the best out of us, along with those who made us want to give up. I can only think that Everton have not hired the right type of teachers (coaches) to help young players reach their full potential.

The likes of Rodwell is an example of a young player who must have decided that he no longer had to work hard because he had "Made It".

I do realize that he had injury problems. The very best players such as Ronaldo and Messi are never satisfied with their own ability and still put more into practice than the average player. Because of that, they also stay fit and are rarely injured.

I am not sure if it is just bad luck that we have some players, such as Delph, who are constantly injured. Eventually, fans and probably players just give up and accept that they are just injury-prone. Are Everton players as fit as they should be? I don't know... I am just confused.

ps: Agreed. We did lose out on Antonee Robinson, who we basically gave away.

Yes, Gordon is not a #9 but Richarlison has been used before by both Everton and Brazil in this spot. I believe 90% of the supporters on Saturday thought he was being brought on to replace Rondon and not Gordon. It appears Benitez is being stubborn keeping a player on who was ineffective.

I must be honest – I've no recollection of John Spencer playing for us. However Wikipedia says he did play a few games in the mid-90s. A case of “blink and you missed him” I suspect.

Bernie Wright made only 11 apps and scored 2 goals for us - but I remember him clearly!

I also recall in the 70s and 80s we had 2 forwards called Mike Walsh (one being the brother of our much derided former DoF, Steve Walsh). Both were more mobile than Rondon but equally hopeless I think and were shipped out after a handful of games.

I think I'll stop these recollections – it's getting depressing.

He goes on to say, "All names we gushed over at various times, but have we ever regretted letting any of them go?"

Add to that, under Kenwright's tenure, Jeffers, Baxter, Forshaw, Clarke and Garbutt and you really start to have to think, don't you, that Finch Farm is absolutely dross, decade after decade, with Kenwright's luvvies doing their ineffectual stuff, when it comes to producing Premier League talent?

Of course everyone at Finch Farm "gets" Everton, which – allied with being really cheap to employ – is hard-on attractive to the disingenuous git who still masquerades as our serious chairman, permitted as he is by a serially unsuccessful billionaire, Mr McGoo.

For me it's actually something I rarely do, but I reserve the right in extreme cases (ie: getting beat 2-5 at home by shite like Watford) to use it.

For others, booing comes much easier and there have been times over the years when I've been seated next to some very angry and committed booers.

George Telfer and his psychosomatic limp?

"BOOOOO!!"

0-0 at home against Spurs. Moyes brings on a defender?

"BOOOO!!"

7 nicker for a pie and a plazzy bottle of pissy lager?

"BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"

Problem of course with booing everything is when you've REALLY got something to boo, many people will ignore you thinking you're just a very angry person who probably boos when served a cup of tea that's not hot enough.

Anyway everything you need to know can be found in a new book 'Booing Etiquette For Evertonians' by Bull N. Zrode.

Everyone has the right to protest as long as it does not become confrontational or violent and booing is no different than clapping, they are both just describing different emotions.

If you were at Goodson and saw a fellow with dark curly hair warming up on the sideline and the tannoy said “Everton substitution: Number 17 coming on for Tom Davies is the serial killer, Frederick West.” Would you clap or boo?

He came on as a sub on Saturday for Chelsea and almost scored but for a good save by the keeper. He is playing for the European Champions and Premier League leaders. I would definitely have had him in our team against Watford.

Lukaku may have been our "record signing" but he was paid for on the never-never, which rather dilutes your point.

Is booing prevalent in other cities? I remember in the early fifties a religious brother at De La Salle, from Glasgow, absolutely hated the sound of booing at sporting events, he was of the view that booing only happened in Liverpool and Glasgow.

I was used to it at Goodison and Anfield and thought it happened everywhere. It was much in evidence at the Liverpool Stadium if the crowd thought the wrong boxer was declared the winner.

I've done a few boos in my time but would prefer the crowd to remain absolutely silent (impossible) when the team runs out at the next home game, let them know they've got to earn those cheers.

It was me that made those comments Des, and my point is not ‘diluted’ at all. Almost all transfer payments are spaced out over the length of the contract so my point is still valid. Lukaku was our record signing.

if Fred West had replaced Tom on Saturday, I would have clapped for sure.

If Rosemary had come on for Rondon, then I would have cheered.